Right person, right place at the right time?

[WonderWhy]

Hello,

First posting so please be gentle.

I've seen other postings along the lines of who was the greatest general, what was the most decisive battle, the most significant war and etc.

I was wondering who you think, as a military person or someone involved in a military operation, was just the right person in the right place at the right time? Not in the sense that if Wellington had not been in command at Waterloo the British/Allies would have lost, etc. because then it becomes a list, again, of "great military leaders".

For example: Chamberlain at Little Round Top, Hal Moore at Ia Drang, etc.

So what's your opinion...and why were they the right person at the right place at the right time?

Here is what I have so far:

Hal Moore at Ia Drang
James Wolfe at Quebec City
John Chard at Rorke's Drift
Joshua Chamberlain at Little Round Top
John Buford at Get tysburg
Captain Danjou at Cameron
John Paul Jones vs. Serapis
Sir James Macdonnell at Hougoumont
Wendell Fertig in the Phillipines
Wade McClusky at Midway

Any that should or should not be included? Is this in the right forum?

Thanks.

WW

[Buckeye67]

Daniel Morgan at Cowpens
Benedict Arnold at Saratoga
George Rogers Clark in the Illinois Campaign

Edit:

General Tony MacAuliffe - Bastogne
General George S Patton - Battle of the Bulge

While it may be cliche, Lt. **** Winters - Normandy

[stonecutter]

I may be wrong, but the Marquis de Vaudreuil was probably more instrumental to the English victory on the Plains of Abraham than was James Wolfe.

[SpeedyHedgehog]

I would add George Thomas at Chickamauga.

[James]

William Westmoreland in Vietnam.

[Dercius]

Von Letow Vorbeck in German west Africa during WW1

[Winger]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Chesty_Puller.jpg/200px-Chesty_Puller.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Chesty_Puller.jpg)

There was always a right time and a right place for this man.

[orionhawk]

Corporal Alvin Cullum York, U.S. Army, Meuse-Argonne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_York

can't believe nobody else put that up here.

might also suggest the CO of the USS Nevada, at Pearl Harbor.
On 7 December (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_7) 1941 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941), Nevada was moored singly off Ford Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Island) in Pearl Harbor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor), and thus had a freedom of maneuver denied the other eight battleships present during the attack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor). As her gunners opened fire and her engineers got up steam, she was struck by one torpedo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo) and two, possibly three, bombs from the Japanese attackers, but was able to get underway. While trying to flee the harbor she was struck again. Fearing she might sink in the channel, blocking it, she was beached at Hospital Point. Over the course of the morning, Nevada had 50 killed and 109 wounded. The memorial depicted at right represents the crew members that were killed.

or Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, planning and leading that brilliant attack.

[gaijinsamurai]

Gen. Scherer at Cholm

[gaijinsamurai]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Chesty_Puller.jpg/200px-Chesty_Puller.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Chesty_Puller.jpg)

There was always a right time and a right place for this man.

Damn Straight!!!!

[Skutatos]

Petraeus-Iraq
Jules G. Ord and Theodore Roosevelt-San Juan Hill
Cincinnatus-457 B.C.

[orionhawk]

also, damn decent first post, WonderWhy!

[El Diablo Rojo]

Montgomery at El Alamein.

[SpeedyHedgehog]

Anthony McAuliffe at Bastogne, if only for his use of the word "Nuts".

[gaijinsamurai]

This man, for Britain in 1940.
(By the way, I have to mention that he was 1/2 American, and part-Iraqois Indian!)

[gaijinsamurai]

also, damn decent first post, WonderWhy!

X2. Welcome to MP.net Wonderwhy! Great idea for a thread!

[el borracho]

Von Letow Vorbeck in German west Africa during WW1

Damn right. I dropped his name in the Rommel thread as another example of German tactical ingenuity.

[Asp]

or Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, planning and leading that brilliant attack.

I agree with you for the planning part... it was a brilliantly audaucious idea...

... but the attack was led by Admiral Chuichi Nagumo, whose hesitation at the moment of dession robbed the attack of it's full potential effect. Nagumo would go on to do the same thing at Midway to even more devistating effect.

[James]

Haig, France, 1916.

[Mastermind]

Here is an interesting nomination: Jean Parisot de Valette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Parisot_de_la_Valette) the Grand Master for the defense of Malta during the great seige by the Ottomans in 1565. Here we have a tiny force, holding off and smashing a far superior force duing one of the bloodiest and best fought wars in history. This was also one of the actions that gave the Kinghts of Malta or the Hospitlars their fame.

Although the knights saved all Christendom from the ravages of a Muslim horde and thus probably saved all of Western civilization, they were later mercilessly hunted down and slaughtered by the Pope.

I read a book on the subject, although I can not remember the name of it. It described some of the most inventive and amazing war tactics of the time and also detailed astonishing acts of bravery and fighting skill.

[Ordie]

Gen. George S. Patton- Ardennes
Arthur Wellesley- Assay
Horatio Nelson- Copenhagen
Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher - Waterloo
Gen. Claire Chennault- Kunmming China

[helomech]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Chesty_Puller.jpg/200px-Chesty_Puller.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Chesty_Puller.jpg)

There was always a right time and a right place for this man.

So very true,we need more men like him today,

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/rsgeiger.jpg

Roy Stanley Geiger
General, United States Marine Corps
In April 1944, he led the III Amphibious Corps in the invasion and subsequent recapture of Guam during July and August, 1944, and in the assault and capture of the southern Palau Islands in September and October of the same year. For those operations he was awarded two Gold Stars in lieu of a second and third Distinguished Service Medal.

General Roy Stanley Geiger, who commanded both air and ground units during World War II, and was the first Marine to lead an Army

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/roystanl.htm

[James]

Douglas MacArthur, the Philippines, 1942.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Hyacinth Honner DSO, MC

Commanded the 39th Inf Battalion (militia) from Isurava to the units dismantling in 43.

At one point the 39th was considered one of the worst units in Australian history. After all it was a militia unit made up of kids, blokes to old or to sick to serve in the AIF and so forth. Discipline was bad, morale poor.

Not only did he transform the 39th into one of the most effective fighting forces of WW2 but he did it in the field in a matter of a week or so whilst preparing defensive positions waiting for the Japanese attack.

The following battle of Isurava surely goes down as one of Australia's most significant battles. The fact that a militia unit of part times who had spent considerable time fighting the Japanese and were already weak with disease, down in numbers, lack supplies inflicted such a toll on the Japanese before withdrawing it's Thermoplye(sp) type stuff.

Later in the campaign on the beach heads of Gona/Buna and Sanananda Blamey preferred to use the 39th instead of freash American troops because

I'll get the exact quote later but it goes something along these lines


The Americans upon contact with the enemy had sat down and hardly gone forward a yard and imply refuse to fight. They are no match for the Australian Militia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Ralph_Honner_005638.JPG

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Douglas MacArthur, the Philippines, 1942.

The right man in the right place??? Please explain...

[Asp]

Megaraptor;3461878']The right man in the right place??? Please explain...

Me, too, please... I'd say he belongs in "The wrong man in the right place" thread... right next to Gaius Terentius Varro...

[WonderWhy]

Quite a response! Here is what I have so far:

Hal Moore at Ia Drang
James Wolfe at Quebec City
John Chard at Rorke's Drift
Joshua Chamberlain at Little Round Top
John Buford at Get tysburg
Captain Danjou at Cameron
John Paul Jones vs. Serapis
Sir James Macdonnell at Hougoumont
Wendell Fertig in the Phillipines
Wade McClusky at Midway
Daniel Morgan at Cowpens
Benedict Arnold at Saratoga
George Rogers Clark in the Illinois Campaign
General Tony MacAuliffe - Bastogne
General George S Patton - Battle of the Bulge/Ardennes
Lt. **** Winters - Normandy - Second thoughts?
George Thomas at Chickamauga
William Westmoreland in Vietnam
Von Letow Vorbeck in German west Africa
Chesty Puller - Everywhere! ;-)
Corporal Alvin York at Meuse-Argonne
Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto at Pearl Harbor
Gen. Scherer at Cholm
Petraeus-Iraq
Jules G. Ord and Theodore Roosevelt-San Juan Hill
Cincinnatus-457 B.C.
Montgomery at El Alamein
Churchill - Battle of Britain
Haig, France, 1916
Jean Parisot de Valette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Parisot_de_la_Valette) at Malta
Arthur Wellesley- Assay
Horatio Nelson- Copenhagen
Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher - Waterloo. I can't believe I forgot him!
Gen. Claire Chennault- Kunmming China
General Stanley Geiger at Guam

I think I got them all so far, if I missed some - apologies. A couple of the gents listed I've never even heard of and I thought I was a student of Military History. Time to do some reading.

Again, thanks for the responses. I've got a laundry list of questions like these that I've been compiling for something I'm working on as a hobby.

Any more? :)

WW

[El Diablo Rojo]

Foster LaHue (at least I believe it was him) at the 1968 Battle of Hue.

Any takers?

[khalifah]

Col. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain- Second day of the Battle of *****sburgh


held the flank and essentially saved the day for the Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_L._Chamberlain

[INAT]

THE BUSINESS PLOT TO OVERTHROW ROOSEVELT

In the summer of 1933, shortly after Roosevelt's "First 100 Days," America's richest businessmen were in a panic. It was clear that Roosevelt intended to conduct a massive redistribution of wealth from the rich to the poor. Roosevelt had to be stopped at all costs.

The answer was a military coup. It was to be secretly financed and organized by leading officers of the Morgan and Du Pont empires. This included some of America's richest and most famous names of the time:

Irenee Du Pont - Right-wing chemical industrialist and founder of the American Liberty League, the organization assigned to execute the plot.

Grayson Murphy - Director of Goodyear, Bethlehem Steel and a group of J.P. Morgan banks.

William Doyle - Former state commander of the American Legion and a central plotter of the coup.

John Davis - Former Democratic presidential candidate and a senior attorney for J.P. Morgan.

Al Smith - Roosevelt's bitter political foe from New York. Smith was a former governor of New York and a codirector of the American Liberty League.

John J. Raskob - A high-ranking Du Pont officer and a former chairman of the Democratic Party. In later decades, Raskob would become a "Knight of Malta," a Roman Catholic Religious Order with a high percentage of CIA spies, including CIA Directors William Casey, William Colby and John McCone.

Robert Clark - One of Wall Street's richest bankers and stockbrokers.

Gerald MacGuire - Bond salesman for Clark, and a former commander of the Connecticut American Legion. MacGuire was the key recruiter to General Butler.

The plotters attempted to recruit General Smedley Butler to lead the coup. They selected him because he was a war hero who was popular with the troops. The plotters felt his good reputation was important to make the troops feel confident that they were doing the right thing by overthrowing a democratically elected president. However, this was a mistake: Butler was popular with the troops because he identified with them. That is, he was a man of the people, not the elite. When the plotters approached General Butler with their proposal to lead the coup, he pretended to go along with the plan at first, secretly deciding to betray it to Congress at the right moment.

What the businessmen proposed was dramatic: they wanted General Butler to deliver an ultimatum to Roosevelt. Roosevelt would pretend to become sick and incapacitated from his polio, and allow a newly created cabinet officer, a "Secretary of General Affairs," to run things in his stead. The secretary, of course, would be carrying out the orders of Wall Street. If Roosevelt refused, then General Butler would force him out with an army of 500,000 war veterans from the American Legion. But MacGuire assured Butler the cover story would work:

"You know the American people will swallow that. We have got the newspapers. We will start a campaign that the President's health is failing. Everyone can tell that by looking at him, and the dumb American people will fall for it in a second…"

The businessmen also promised that money was no object: Clark told Butler that he would spend half his $60 million fortune to save the other half.

And what type of government would replace Roosevelt's New Deal? MacGuire was perfectly candid to Paul French, a reporter friend of General Butler's:
"We need a fascist government in this country… to save the nation from the communists who want to tear it down and wreck all that we have built in America. The only men who have the patriotism to do it are the soldiers, and Smedley Butler is the ideal leader. He could organize a million men overnight."
Indeed, it turns out that MacGuire travelled to Italy to study Mussolini's fascist state, and came away mightily impressed. He wrote glowing reports back to his boss, Robert Clark, suggesting that they implement the same thing.

If this sounds too fantastic to believe, we should remember that by 1933, the crimes of fascism were still mostly in the future, and its dangers were largely unknown, even to its supporters. But in the early days, many businessmen openly admired Mussolini because he had used a strong hand to deal with labor unions, put out social unrest, and get the economy working again, if only at the point of a gun. Americans today would be appalled to learn of the many famous millionaires back then who initially admired Hitler and Mussolini: Henry Ford, John D. Rockefeller, John and Allen Dulles (who, besides being millionaires, would later become Eisenhower's Secretary of State and CIA Director, respectively), and, of course, everyone on the above list. They disavowed Hitler and Mussolini only after their atrocities grew to indefensible levels.

The plot fell apart when Butler went public. The general revealed the details of the coup before the McCormack-****stein Committee, which would later become the notorious House Un-American Activities Committee. (In the 50s, this committee would destroy the lives of hundreds of innocent Americans with its communist witch hunts.) The Committee heard the testimony of Butler and French, but failed to call in any of the coup plotters for questioning, other than MacGuire. In fact, the Committee whitewashed the public version of its final report, deleting the names of powerful businessmen whose reputations they sought to protect. The most likely reason for this response is that Wall Street had undue influence in Congress also. Even more alarming, the elite-controlled media failed to pick up on the story, and even today the incident remains little known. The elite managed to spin the story as nothing more than the rumors and hearsay of Butler and French, even though Butler was a Quaker of unimpeachable honesty and integrity. Butler, appalled by the cover-up, went on national radio to denounce it, but with little success.

Butler was not vindicated until 1967, when journalist John Spivak uncovered the Committee's internal, secret report. It clearly confirmed Butler's story:

In the last few weeks of the committee's life it received evidence showing that certain persons had attempted to establish a fascist organization in this country…

There is no question that these attempts were discussed, were planned and might have been placed in execution if the financial backers deemed it expedient…

MacGuire denied [Butler's] allegations under oath, but your committee was able to verify all the pertinent statements made to General Butler, with the exception of the direct statement suggesting the creation of the organization. This, however, was corroborated in the correspondence of MacGuire with his principle, Robert Sterling Clark, of New York City, while MacGuire was abroad studying the various form of veterans' organizations of Fascist character.

Needless to say, the survival of America's democracy is not an automatic or sure thing. Americans need to remain vigilant against all enemies... both foreign and domestic.

[Billy No Mates]

Although the knights saved all Christendom from the ravages of a Muslim horde and thus probably saved all of Western civilization, they were later mercilessly hunted down and slaughtered by the Pope.

I would 2nd that nomination,but are you sure your not confusing Templars with Hospitallers? as the Knights endured on Malta till 1798(was the book you read the one by Ernle Bradford if not i would recomend it) .

My first nominee would also fight on Malta around 400 years later but not before controlling the vital 11 group sector in the Battle of Britian,New Zealander Keith Park did a real number on Kesselring(himself no slouch)in both theatres .

The Duke of Norfolk for turning Englands day of wrath(the battle of Towton)on palm sunday 1461 just as the Lancastrians seemed on the verge of breaking the Yorkist lines he arrived with the east anglian contingent having abandonded both artillery and baggage in order to arrive at the crucial point and turn a bloody battle into a bloodier rout .

[Masai]

General Koos de la Rey during the Second Boer War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koos_de_la_Rey)

[José Brito]

Robert Capa - Omaha Beach 06 June 1944

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Robert E. Lee at the Battle of the Seven Days.
Stonewall Jackson in the Shenandoah Valley.
Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson at Chancellorsville.
Archibald Wavell at Sidi Barrani.

[gaijinsamurai]

I'm glad to see you mentioned Stonewall at Chancelorsville, Megaraptor. It's just too bad that it ended tragically for the great general.

[gaijinsamurai]

I would 2nd that nomination,but are you sure your not confusing Templars with Hospitallers?.

Excellent and interesting piece of historical info, Mastermind! But, I was wondering the same thing, in regards to the Templers vs. Hospitallers. As far as I knew, the Hospitallers survived as an order.


Interesting article INAT. I was not aware of the story about Smedley Butler and the poposed take-over of the US Government.

I's also like to propose Field Marshall Slim, in the Burma Campaign.

[gaijinsamurai]

Michel Ney, taking charge of the rearguard during Napoleon's retreat from Moscow. He didn't turn things around for the French, but he kept the withdrawal from being a total rout.

[James]

Megaraptor;3461878']The right man in the right place??? Please explain...

Haha, I was waiting for someone to catch that one... And Westmoreland in Vietnam, Haig in France...

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Actually Haig wasn't to bad and was simply product of the time. Remember up until this point warfare had changed very little from Napoleons time.

he actually does have a lot of redeeming qualities and he was definetely better then Gough, Ludondorff and Hindenburg. Foch and Nivelle. Meh. He also allowed generals such as Currie and Monash to get on with it, devise their own strategies for their respective corps.

It could be argued that Haig was the first of the modern "Theater Generals" in the sense whilst he was directing the general direction of the war he left the individual armies and corps work out the finer points in a similar vain to Eisenhower in WW2.

He was instrumental in establishing the Royal Dental Corps, established charities and homes for ex servicemen.

His biggest critics are also the ones who stood to gain the most politically. Churchill Yeah the same Churchill who decided on the Dardenelles, Norway in WW2 and such and Lloyd George the wartime PM.

Yeah he has is faults but Nivelle, Foch, Ludondorf, Hindendburg they all made the same mistakes.

Interesting little fact.

The casualty rates of the breakout at Normandy by the British were significantly higher for the British then at any point during the Western Front when Haigh was in command.

Out of all the WW1 British generals he was still the best man for the job. Robertson was a yes man to George, Birdwood whilst highly rated was not politically astute enough for the job and Currie, White and Monash were all from Canada and Australia.

[gaijinsamurai]

Haha, I was waiting for someone to catch that one... And Westmoreland in Vietnam, Haig in France...

Hahaha!!!!
I was reading the one about Westmoreland in Vietnam yesterday, and was going to make a smart-ass comment, but just in case you were serious, I didn't want to do something as foolish as disrespect a mod!

You could add Percival at Singapore to your list!

[gaijinsamurai]

Speaking of losers....

What about leaders who lost battles, but still provided exemplarary leadership and skills?

I would include Lt.Col Langlais at Dien Bien Phu and Major Deveroux at Wake Island.

[WonderWhy]

gaijinsamurai,



What about leaders who lost battles, but still provided exemplarary leadership and skills?

I would include Lt.Col Langlais at Dien Bien Phu and Major Deveroux at Wake IslandThis is similar to one of the other lists I'm working on -- "Last Stands". Essentially: What was a significant Last Stand - where a relatively small group of defenders successfully/unsuccessfully defended against significantly larger force? Did the Last Stand affect the greater conflict or was it a waste of people, material and morale?

Conversely: Forlorn Hopes - What are some anecdotal Forlorn Hopes throughout history? E.g. Where a relatively small force attacks a much larger defending force with little chance of success.

I wonder if I should start some new threads since you guys are providing me with some valuable information, insight and further reading ideas?

WW

[orionhawk]

gaijinsamurai,

This is similar to one of the other lists I'm working on -- "Last Stands". Essentially: What was a significant Last Stand - where a relatively small group of defenders successfully/unsuccessfully defended against significantly larger force? Did the Last Stand affect the greater conflict or was it a waste of people, material and morale?

Conversely: Forlorn Hopes - What are some anecdotal Forlorn Hopes throughout history? E.g. Where a relatively small force attacks a much larger defending force with little chance of success.

I wonder if I should start some new threads since you guys are providing me with some valuable information, insight and further reading ideas?

WW
last stand (successful): Col Moore at Ia Drang/LZ X-ray, Brigadier General McAuliffe and the 101st Airborne at the battle of Bastogne (both already in this thread, iirc.)
Last stand (failed): the Spartans, at Thermopylae

[Asp]

Gary Littrell-Rangers Lead the Way!!

Note that this could also qualify for a "Last Stand".

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Speaking of losers....

What about leaders who lost battles, but still provided exemplarary leadership and skills?

I would include Lt.Col Langlais at Dien Bien Phu and Major Deveroux at Wake Island.

General Nguyen Van Thieu, president of South Vietnam.

As for a great last stand, I would propose the battle of Xuan Loc in 1975.

[Macaca sylvanus]

Cpl David Abols DCM, 2 Para, Battle of Goose Green Falklands War.

[Asp]

gaijinsamurai,

Conversely: Forlorn Hopes - What are some anecdotal Forlorn Hopes throughout history? E.g. Where a relatively small force attacks a much larger defending force with little chance of success.

WW

How about the Charge of the Light Brigade?

[Mastermind]

[quote=Billy No Mates;3462721]I would 2nd that nomination,but are you sure your not confusing Templars with Hospitallers? as the Knights endured on Malta till 1798(was the book you read the one by Ernle Bradford if not i would recomend it) .


Yes, you are correct...the Templars were dissolved in the early 1300's and their property, holdings and treasures that were found were handed into the hands of the Hospitlars. The Hospitlars, by my reading, were one and the same as the Knights of Malta who manned the parapets when the Ottoman Turks arrived. Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for the snap...It's been a while since I read the story...but thanks to Wickipedia...hahaha...it was there for the looking...I should have looked it up. Damn this old age! MM

[Roldwin]

This man, for Britain in 1940.
(By the way, I have to mention that he was 1/2 American, and part-Iraqois Indian!)

hehe, I also have to mention that he was awarded by the spanish goverment when he was commisiones as an observer during the Cuban war

[Billy No Mates]

Speaking of losers....

What about leaders who lost battles, but still provided exemplarary leadership and skills?

I would include Lt.Col Langlais at Dien Bien Phu and Major Deveroux at Wake Island.


Sir Richard Grenville commanding HMS Revenge of the Azores in 1577
held up a Spanish fleet of 53 ship for 15 hours after which there were only 16 men left to fight he was persuaded to surrender and came to terms with the Spanards,he died of wounds 2 days latter and what was left of the ship(the only one captured by Spain in the Elizabethan age)was lost in a storm taking the prize crew with her .

[gaijinsamurai]

How about the Charge of the Light Brigade?

I would categorize the Charge of the Light Brigade (Battle of Balaclava, Crimean War, 1854) as a useless example of incompetent military leadership. The British officers Raglan, Cardigan and Lucan showed how downhill their army had slipped since Waterloo, and exposed the system of purchased commissions and wealth/influence-based promotions as a failure waiting to happen.

[Royal]

This is similar to one of the other lists I'm working on -- "Last Stands". Essentially: What was a significant Last Stand - where a relatively small group of defenders successfully/unsuccessfully defended against significantly larger force? Did the Last Stand affect the greater conflict or was it a waste of people, material and morale?

Lt Keith "fairly famous" Mills DSC RM and his men on South Georgia in April 82. 22 Royal Marines shot down a helicopter and very nearly sank a frigate, all with small arms.


Conversely: Forlorn Hopes - What are some anecdotal Forlorn Hopes throughout history? E.g. Where a relatively small force attacks a much larger defending force with little chance of success.

The term folorn hope was not used because the battle was a folorn hope, but because there was little chance of surviving the assault into the breach during a siege. Volunteers were called for and the survivors would usually be guaranteed the first chance to loot the city - and the chance of promotion - in the days when commisions and promotions were usually bought that was a big incentive for poorer officers.


I would categorize the Charge of the Light Brigade (Battle of Balaclava, Crimean War, 1854) as a useless example of incompetent military leadership. The British officers Raglan, Cardigan and Lucan showed how downhill their army had slipped since Waterloo, and exposed the system of purchased commissions and wealth/influence-based promotions as a failure waiting to happen.

Bad comms certainly (Raglan's orders were ambiguous at best, not helped by Nolan - the messenger) - but poor leadership? Cardigan led his men into a pretty much suicidal charge. He led from the front all the way and brought nearly half of his men out unscathed.

The system of purchased commissions and wealth/influence-based promotions worked pretty well in the Peninsula and at Waterloo. Actually it's something of a myth. Richard Holmes looked it it in 'Redcoat' and concluded that at least half of promotions were based on merit and that far from being an anomaly, commissions from the ranks were commonplace.

[gaijinsamurai]

You are right in that nobody can accuse Cardigan of being a coward. He was undoubtedly brave. I guess what I was referring to was his constant bickering with Lucan, which if I recall, greatly underminded their ability to work together during the campaign. As far as incompetence went, it seems to me that Raglan left a lot to be desired.

And yes, there were still some excellent officers produced during that era. I've read a lot of Richard Holmes' work (not Redcoat yet, even though I have it sitting on my bookshelf!), and will trust his research on the issue, as well as yours!

Wasn't there also a lot of prejudice against British officers who had served in India? It seems to me that during the years 1815 to 1854 they were the ones who by and large received the most expeience in warfare, yet were looked down upon by the priveledged officers who spent their time in England, especially with Guards and cavalry regiments.

[Laconian]

Eisenhower at SHAEF - not sure any other general officer could have held the coalition together
BG Wild Bill Donovan at OSS
BG Norm Cota at Omaha Beach a key leader forcing a fight
BG Teddy Roosevelt Jr at Utah Beach his decision to expand the beachhead where they were instead of moving it, a key decision.
CPT HR McMaster at 73 Eastings in Desert Storm
Leonidas at Thermopylae

[Royal]

Wasn't there also a lot of prejudice against British officers who had served in India? It seems to me that during the years 1815 to 1854 they were the ones who by and large received the most expeience in warfare, yet were looked down upon by the priveledged officers who spent their time in England, especially with Guards and cavalry regiments.

There was certainly a lot of prejudice against East India Company officers from the field army. It probably also applied in the cavalry and guards (always were a strange bunch) - because of their limited operational use (prior to the Peninsula). Nevertheless, troops always apprecaite good leadership - look at the esteem with which the KGL was held, or for that matter the French!

[gaijinsamurai]

Very true!!!

[lightcav]

I don't think anyone mentioned

Douglas MacArthur - Inchon
Queen Elizabeth I and Sir Francis Drake - Destruction of Spanish Armada
Alexander The Great - Battle of Granicus River
Moshe Dayan - Six Days War
Eisenhower - D Day
Grant - Shiloh and Vicksburg
William Grant - Beersheba

As for Catastophes:

Montgomery - Market Garden
Churchill - Gallipoli

[Tareece]

Audie Murphy.....
And little known Matt L. Urban


Murphy:

CITATION: 2d Lt. Murphy commanded Company B, which was attacked by 6 tanks and waves of infantry. 2d Lt. Murphy ordered his men to withdraw to prepared positions in a woods, while he remained forward at his command post and continued to give fire directions to the artillery by telephone. Behind him, to his right, 1 of our tank destroyers received a direct hit and began to burn. Its crew withdrew to the woods. 2d Lt. Murphy continued to direct artillery fire which killed large numbers of the advancing enemy infantry. With the enemy tanks abreast of his position, 2d Lt. Murphy climbed on the burning tank destroyer, which was in danger of blowing up at any moment, and employed its .50 caliber machine gun against the enemy. He was alone and exposed to German fire from 3 sides, but his deadly fire killed dozens of Germans and caused their infantry attack to waver. The enemy tanks, losing infantry support, began to fall back. For an hour the Germans tried every available weapon to eliminate 2d Lt. Murphy, but he continued to hold his position and wiped out a squad which was trying to creep up unnoticed on his right flank. Germans reached as close as 10 yards, only to be mowed down by his fire. He received a leg wound, but ignored it and continued the single-handed fight until his ammunition was exhausted. He then made his way to his company, refused medical attention, and organized the company in a counterattack which forced the Germans to withdraw. His directing of artillery fire wiped out many of the enemy; he killed or wounded about 50. 2d Lt. Murphy's indomitable courage and his refusal to give an inch of ground saved his company from possible encirclement and destruction, and enabled it to hold the woods which had been the enemy's objective.


Urban:

Lieutenant Colonel (then Captain) Matt Urban, l 12-22-2414, United States Army, who distinguished himself by a series of bold, heroic actions, exemplified by singularly outstanding combat leadership, personal bravery, and tenacious devotion to duty, during the period 14 June to 3 September 1944 while assigned to the 2d Battalion, 60th Infantry Regiment, 9th Infantry Division.

On 14 June, Captain Urban's company, attacking at Renouf, France, encountered heavy enemy small arms and tank fire. The enemy tanks were unmercifully raking his unit's positions and inflicting heavy casualties. Captain Urban, realizing that his company was in imminent danger of being decimated, armed himself with a bazooka. He worked his way with an ammo carrier through hedgerows, under a continuing barrage of fire, to a point near the tanks. He brazenly exposed himself to the enemy fire and, firing the bazooka, destroyed both tanks. Responding to Captain Urban's action, his company moved forward and routed the enemy.

Later that same day, still in the attack near Orglandes, Captain Urban was wounded in the leg by direct fire from a 37mm tank-gun. He refused evacuation and continued to lead his company until they moved into defensive positions for the night. At 0500 hours the next day, still in the attack near Orglandes, Captain Urban, though badly wounded, directed his company in another attack. One hour later he was again wounded. Suffering from two wounds, one serious, he was evacuated to England.
In mid-July, while recovering from his wounds, he learned of his unit's severe losses in the hedgerows of Normandy. Realizing his unit's need for battle-tested leaders, he voluntarily left the hospital and hitchhiked his way back to his unit hear St. Lo, France. Arriving at the 2d Battalion Command Post at 1130 hours, 25 July, he found that his unit had jumped-off at 1100 hours in the first attack of Operation Cobra." Still limping from his leg wound, Captain Urban made his way forward to retake command of his company. He found his company held up by strong enemy opposition. Two supporting tanks had been destroyed and another, intact but with no tank commander or gunner, was not moving.

He located a lieutenant in charge of the support tanks and directed a plan of attack to eliminate the enemy strong-point. The lieutenant and a sergeant were immediately killed by the heavy enemy fire when they tried to mount the tank. Captain Urban, though physically hampered by his leg wound and knowing quick action had to be taken, dashed through the scathing fire and mounted the tank. With enemy bullets ricocheting from the tank, Captain Urban ordered the tank forward and, completely exposed to the enemy fire, manned the machine gun and placed devastating fire on the enemy.

His action, in the face of enemy fire, galvanized the battalion into action and they attacked and destroyed the enemy position.

On 2 August, Captain Urban was wounded in the chest by shell fragments and, disregarding the recommendation of the Battalion Surgeon, again refused evacuation. On 6 August, Captain Urban became the commander of the 2d Battalion. On 15 August, he was again wounded but remained with his unit.
On 3 September, the 2d Battalion was given the mission of establishing a crossing-point on the Meuse River near Heer, Belgium. The enemy planned to stop the advance of the allied Army by concentrating heavy forces at the Meuse. The 2d Battalion, attacking toward the crossing-point, encountered fierce enemy artillery, small arms and mortar fire which stopped the attack. Captain Urban quickly moved from his command post to the lead position of the battalion. Reorganizing the attacking elements, he personally led a charge toward the enemy's strong-point.

As the charge moved across the open terrain, Captain Urban was seriously wounded in the neck. Although unable to talk above a whisper from the paralyzing neck wound, and in danger of losing his life, he refused to be evacuated until the enemy was routed and his battalion had secured the crossing-point on the Meuse River. Captain Urban's personal leadership, limitless bravery, and repeated extraordinary exposure to enemy fire served as an inspiration to his entire battalion. His valorous and intrepid actions reflect the utmost credit on him and uphold the noble traditions of the United States.


Hard Core OOOORAH!

[Mastermind]

Now, THAT's serious stuff. Truly what heros are made of.