Indian Muslims Speak Out Against Terrorism [Archive]

wigon

08-11-2008, 01:57 PM

"TERRORISM" is Un-Islamic

India's Islamic scholars issue fatwa against terrorism
Posted June 2nd, 2008 by Mudassir Rizwan
By IINA,
http://www.twocircles.net/2008jun01/indias_islamic_scholars_issue_fatwa_against_terrorism.html

New Delhi : Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind, one of the leading Muslim organizations, along with several other Muslim outfits owing allegiance to different sects and ideologies in India, issued a "fatwa" against terrorism at the Anti-Terrorism Global Peace Conference at Ramlila Grounds here yesterday. The "fatwa," sought by Member of Parliament and Jamiat leader Mahmood Asad Madani and issued on the letterhead of Darul Uloom Deoband, one of the leading Islamic religious institutions in the world, read: "Islam is a religion of peace and security. In its eyes, on any part over the surface of the earth spreading mischief, rioting, breach of peace, bloodshed, killing of innocent persons and plundering are the most inhuman crimes."
Delegates from various Islamic sects, numbering around 10,000, were administered a Quranic pledge to "stay away from terror" by the rector of Darul Uloom seminary Maulana Marghoobur Rahman at the peace conference." What has been promised, must be accomplished," Maulana Marghoobur Rahman said, quoting from the Quran, after "formalizing" Darul's anti-terror declaration issued on February 25 into a globally applicable fatwa. With this, Darul Uloom, led by Jamiat Ulama-I-Hind, has officially issued the world's first fatwa against terror. The fatwa, signed by Darul chief Riyasat Ali Bijnori, has been endorsed by all Muslim sects in India, especially the Barelvi, Khankahi and Sufis.
The fatwa assumes significance because of the Deoband (UP)-based Darul's wide influence across the Muslim world. After the Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Darul is the most important centre of Islamic theology. Aiming to ward off constant allegations of terror links, the seminary took two decisive steps that could have far-reaching effects in the Muslim world. It not only declared terror activities anti-Islam but also involved top clerics in defining terrorism in the light of the Quran and Shariah.
Welcoming the fatwa, Madani said: "Terrorism has emerged as the most serious challenge faced by our nation in recent times. It threatens to strike at the very root of secular structure of our society besides causing irreparable loss in terms of human lives and property. The conference today has provided the opportunity for the entire Islamic community to come on a single platform and raise its voice against terrorism."
The conference, organized as part of a series of such public meetings across the country, adopted a seven-point declaration condemning the propaganda that "regards terrorism as synonymous with Jehad."
"There is a world of difference between terrorism and Jehad. Jehad is constructive and terrorism is destructive. Jehad is for the establishment of peace… terrorism is the gravest crime as held by Quran and Islam," the declaration said. Addressing the huge gathering, Jamiat Ulama-I-Hind President Hazrat Maulana Qari Sayed Mohammad Usman said: "We appeal to the government of India and international community that if they are sincere about rooting out the menace of terrorism they must strive to establish justice and fair play in society. The implementation of the Sachar Committee Report will help eradicate injustice and deprivation. The Government should take immediate action for its implementation."
Social activist Swami Agnivesh said: "It is wrong to attribute the wrongdoings of a few individuals to the whole community. I would not mince words to say that the United States is the terrorist number one. To defame the Holy Koran and Islam is the worst form of terrorism."
"Islam stands for peace and brotherhood and there cannot be a bigger lie than saying that Muslims are terrorists. Who assassinated Mahatma Gandhi and former Prime Ministers Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi? Were their assassins Muslims?" he asked.

+++++++++

Bombs No Response to Cartoons: Qaradawi
By Mohammad Sabrah, IOL Correspondent
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1212394757797&pagename=Zone-English-News/NWELayout

<IMG alt=Image> "Such bombings play into the hands of those who smear the image of Islam, its peaceful teachings and tolerant followers," says Qaradawi.
DOHA — Prominent scholar Yusuf al-Qaradawi strongly denounced the bombing attack that targeted the Danish Embassy in the Pakistani capital Islamabad, insisting that bombs are not the way to respond to offensive cartoons of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him). "We condemned the bombing of the Danish Embassy and the killing of innocent civilians," said Qaradawi, the president of the International Union for Muslim Scholars.
"This is a terrorizing of innocent civilians and a violation of the security pact based on which westerners entered Muslim lands."
One Danish citizen of Pakistani origin and two Pakistani employees were among at least six people killed in a car bombing attack outside the Danish Embassy in Islamabad on Monday, June 2.
The blast badly damaged the embassy and the nearby offices of UN-backed aid agency.
Security officials said a stolen car with fake diplomatic plates was used in the bombing and that the explosives were of a type used in previous attacks attributed to Taliban militants in a tribal region bordering Afghanistan.
No group has yet claimed responsibility for the attack.
Denmark's Muslims, estimated to number more than 200,000 or three percent of the population, were quick to condemn the attack on Sunday.
Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen slammed the bombing as a "horrible, cowardly crime."
US President George W. Bush condemned the bombing and offered his condolences to the victims while UN chief Ban Ki-moon reiterated his "total rejection of such acts of terrorism."
Peaceful Response
Sheikh Qaradawi, the president of the International Union for Muslim Scholars, stressed that violence is not the way to respond to insults to Islam and Prophet Muhammad.
"We criticized Denmark over the 2005 publications of cartoon ridiculing Prophet Muhammad and the recent republications of the caricatures," he recalled.
"This was a provocation of Muslims and an insult to their sanctities," added Sheikh Qaradawi.
Denmark's main dailies reprinted in February a drawing of a man described as the Prophet with a ticking bomb in his turban.
The move has reignited a controversy that first surfaced in 2005 after the mass-circulation Jyllands-Posten commissioned and printed 12 cartoons of the Prophet, sending thousands of protesting Muslims into the streets across the world.
"We do not resist such insults with murder, explosions and aggressions on people and their prosperities," stressed Sheikh Qaradawi.
"We counter these insults through peaceful, legitimate and legal means," he insisted.
"Such bombings play into the hands of those who smear the image of Islam, its peaceful teachings and tolerant followers."

Reaver

08-12-2008, 12:26 AM

I wonder how long will he gets killed by other muslims.

wigon

08-12-2008, 01:30 AM

I wonder how long will he gets killed by other muslims.

He? It was "they". Yeah Islamic extremists are dangerous, but the moderates aren't peaceknicks and have followers who would go on their own Jihads against anyone who killed their Shaykhs.

Wigon

Mr.Flint

08-12-2008, 02:45 AM

The problem is that they still consider silly cartoons as insult, when they will be able to go past that, and simply ignore them, then it will be possible, to believe that they are indeed moderate.

Fiber

08-12-2008, 03:12 AM

It's a start.

MG 3

08-12-2008, 03:21 AM

The problem is that they still consider silly cartoons as insult, when they will be able to go past that, and simply ignore them, then it will be possible, to believe that they are indeed moderate.

Calling them silly just goes to show how much the west understands us and how this drives ppl bonkers here when we are expected to ignore them when you cant.

Qandil

08-12-2008, 03:40 AM

Short-life fatwa, for domestic use only....

Calanen

08-12-2008, 07:21 AM

Calling them silly just goes to show how much the west understands us and how this drives ppl bonkers here when we are expected to ignore them when you cant.

Blowing up embassies because of a cartoon, is stupid. You dont have to ignore anything, you can protest all you want to - but peacefully, like normal civilised human beings.

Reaver

08-12-2008, 07:47 AM

Yeah, Moderate Muslims still think Blasphemy is a crime still in the west. **** the cartoons were not even that funny

wigon

08-12-2008, 09:54 AM

Yeah, Moderate Muslims still think Blasphemy is a crime still in the west. **** the cartoons were not even that funny

Reaver- The article never said that they thought blasphemy was still a crime in the West.

Calanen- The whole point of me posting this article was to show that there are moderates standing up and speaking out loudly against such terrorism.

Mr. Flint, you can be a moderate and still be highly insulted about something. if you started making comics about how aborted fetuses look kinda like the red chicken kababs at the Chinese retauraunt nexxt door, yeah you would definitely offend ALOT of Pro-Life people in the extreme.
Their beliefs are largely based in religion. Likewise most devout Christians get really pissed when they see athiest comics showing Jesus doing horrific things. There was an athiest student group on my campus that during Easter made a huge poster featuring Jesus crapping out an easter egg from his butt. The response was immediate anger with threatening messages left for them....and the poster got torn down and ripped up.

In a democracy, yes you have the right to insult people but you also have the right to be insulted and get angry about it as long as you don't start hurting people physically. Almost every human has something that will push their buttons and piss them off to the extreme if you know what that something is. At a time like this with relations between Muslims and non-Muslims being like it is, hurtling insults at each other does not help anything other then giving the wackos an excuse to commit violence and drown out the voices of moderates trying to stop the madness.

Wigon

sikh_warrior

08-12-2008, 10:51 AM

MG 3

08-12-2008, 11:37 AM

Blowing up embassies because of a cartoon, is stupid. You dont have to ignore anything, you can protest all you want to - but peacefully, like normal civilised human beings.

If you make cartoons of gay ppl and call them fags, the west will be up in flames.

Point is if you make fun of us and then expect us to be quiet about it then your mistaken.

MG 3

08-12-2008, 12:00 PM

Mr.Flint

08-12-2008, 12:15 PM

If you make cartoons of gay ppl and call them fags, the west will be up in flames.

Point is if you make fun of us and then expect us to be quiet about it then your mistaken.
You obviously never seen Stormfront cartoons... where is the mob of angry protesters? oh wait there are none....

Blasphemous cartoons are not making fun of you, they are making fun of your beliefs and views, and you fellas need to HTFU and stop this bullsh1t with demanding an international law against blasphemy.

MG 3

08-12-2008, 12:18 PM

wigon

08-12-2008, 12:19 PM

[quote "Islam is a religion of peace and security. In its eyes, on any part over the surface of the earth spreading mischief, rioting, breach of peace, bloodshed, killing of innocent persons and plundering are the most inhuman crimes."
WHO DECIDES WHO ARE INNOCENT PERSONS?
AND WHO GIVES MUSLIMS THE RIGHT TO KILL PERSONS WHO ARE NOT INNOCENT?
INNOCENT AND NOT INNOCENT BY ISLAMIC WAYS?

"regards terrorism as synonymous with Jehad."
"There is a world of difference between terrorism and Jehad. Jehad is constructive and terrorism is destructive. Jehad is for the establishment of peace… terrorism is the gravest crime as held by Quran and Islam,"
DOEST CLEARIFIES WHAT IS JEHAD IN A CONSTRUCTIVE WAY?

"We appeal to the government of India and international community that if they are sincere about rooting out the menace of terrorism they must strive to establish justice and fair play in society. The implementation of the Sachar Committee Report will help eradicate injustice and deprivation. The Government should take immediate action for its implementation."
THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO APPEAL, ITS A THREAT! "GIVE US WHAT WE WANT OR ELSE?"

Social activist Swami Agnivesh said: "It is wrong to attribute the wrongdoings of a few individuals to the whole community. I would not mince words to say that the United States is the terrorist number one. To defame the Holy Koran and Islam is the worst form of terrorism."
"Islam stands for peace and brotherhood and there cannot be a bigger lie than saying that Muslims are terrorists. Who assassinated Mahatma Gandhi and former Prime Ministers Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi? Were their assassins Muslims?" he asked.
NOBODY LISTEN TO THIS LUNATIC!

."

TRY TO READ THE HIDDEN MESSAGE IN THE QUOTES!

ALWAYS ISLAMIC ORGANISATIONS SAY "KILLING OF INNOCENT IS WRONG"! THEY NEVER CONDEMN THE KILLERS/TERRORISTS AS THEY THEMSELVES FEAR FOR THEIR LIVES! NO ONE CONDEMNS TALIBAN/AL QAIDA/SIMI/INDIAN MUJHADEEN ETC.

IT WAS JUST A PR WORK BY THE MUSLIMS IN INDIA

You see. This is exactly what I am talking about. Moderate Muslims have no room for their voices in this matter. The extremists angrily denounce or even declar Takfir on these scholars, while the other side like yourself denounces these moderates as practicing taqqiyah by reading WAAAAY too much into what they're saying and refusing to even think about the possibility that they may ACTUALLY mean what they say they mean.
They DID denounce terrorist acts VERY CLEARLY. However anyone with any brains at all can see that you guys have a brutal conflict in Kashmir that fuels alot of this.

If these Muslim scholars admit that Jihad is wrong and is not part of their religion...well then they are liars and Muslims will call them liars and apostates. They would lose all support and legitimacy in their communities as there are always young and ambitious wahhabis eager to take over moderate mosques. However if these scholars can indeed demonstrate what "productive Jihad" means, then yes they may be able to interpret the word as its literal meaning which is "struggle" and as such can be done using peaceful political and economic means. But if they did that you would likely say that they are just practicing "stealth jihad" and would support the Indian government to crush any Islamic political movements that got too powerful. The Indian government needs to look at what are just plain stupid complaints by the Muslim community and what are legitimate grievances and thus take action. But sadly politics is never that easy especially in a democracy.

Somewhere along the line, someone needs to build trust. If no trust exists, then you guys can look forward to more and more bloodshed and eventual civil war.

Wigon

wigon

08-12-2008, 12:34 PM

You obviously never seen Stormfront cartoons... where is the mob of angry protesters? oh wait there are none....

Blasphemous cartoons are not making fun of you, they are making fun of your beliefs and views, and you fellas need to HTFU and stop this bullsh1t with demanding an international law against blasphemy.

I've never even heard of those cartoons. Anti-gay cartoons are generally ****** in nature and thus our media in general never publishes such cartoons as they are very prudish about such things. However when a major politican makes anti-homo****** comments, you do indeed see gay Americans in the streets protesting and swamping the internet and media with calls for that politicians resignation. Alot of religous leaders in America have taken a lot of heat for condemming homo******s as well.
Gay rights is a major issue and is a very hot topic in America...but... to be quite honest, the gay rights activists and organizations are a bunch of pansies. When was the last time you heard of militant queers?

Back on topic... the point of that article was that they do not all believe in acting violently just because they are pissed off. They have the right to get angry just as you have the right to get angry over whatever topic that you might be a bit sensitive about.

If you don't show respect, you can expect to get respect. That goes for both Muslims and non-Muslims.

Wigon

Tokamak

08-12-2008, 05:10 PM

[/color]

Simple. Where ever Muslims are being operessed there has to be a struggle to save them. If you kill us then you get killed, if you occupy us then occupation is supposed to be fought, if muslims need help in ighting a war then they are to be helped but only in the case i muslims are attacked first. Yes by Islamic ways. But may I add that Muslms are told to be friendly when living in a Jewish country or sultanate

Jihad means "to struggle". Jihad restores inner peace in an individual. Jihad is a fight against poverty and injustice and in its final state a fight in the name Allah for your bothers and sisters.
Now you see how much they have distorted the true meaning of Jihad.

If hundreds of thousands of you brothern are killed then ppl do resort to extreme measures. I dont blame the west just individual socities and states where opression is rampant.

So if we publish a cartoon, you should publish one and we would give a **** about it. You wouldn't see people on the streets threatening you, would you?. That is the difference and it is a huge difference. If you don't agree with something you complain, but there are ways to do it.

I hope moderates would make more noise and really try to neutralise those rough elements in your community.

Ali Baba

08-12-2008, 07:38 PM

"Islam is a religion of peace and security. In its eyes, on any part over the surface of the earth spreading mischief, rioting, breach of peace, bloodshed, killing of innocent persons and plundering are the most inhuman crimes."
WHO DECIDES WHO ARE INNOCENT PERSONS?
AND WHO GIVES MUSLIMS THE RIGHT TO KILL PERSONS WHO ARE NOT INNOCENT?
INNOCENT AND NOT INNOCENT BY ISLAMIC WAYS?

"regards terrorism as synonymous with Jehad."
"There is a world of difference between terrorism and Jehad. Jehad is constructive and terrorism is destructive. Jehad is for the establishment of peace… terrorism is the gravest crime as held by Quran and Islam,"
DOEST CLEARIFIES WHAT IS JEHAD IN A CONSTRUCTIVE WAY?

"We appeal to the government of India and international community that if they are sincere about rooting out the menace of terrorism they must strive to establish justice and fair play in society. The implementation of the Sachar Committee Report will help eradicate injustice and deprivation. The Government should take immediate action for its implementation."
THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO APPEAL, ITS A THREAT! "GIVE US WHAT WE WANT OR ELSE?"

Social activist Swami Agnivesh said: "It is wrong to attribute the wrongdoings of a few individuals to the whole community. I would not mince words to say that the United States is the terrorist number one. To defame the Holy Koran and Islam is the worst form of terrorism."
"Islam stands for peace and brotherhood and there cannot be a bigger lie than saying that Muslims are terrorists. Who assassinated Mahatma Gandhi and former Prime Ministers Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi? Were their assassins Muslims?" he asked.
NOBODY LISTEN TO THIS LUNATIC!

."

TRY TO READ THE HIDDEN MESSAGE IN THE QUOTES!

ALWAYS ISLAMIC ORGANISATIONS SAY "KILLING OF INNOCENT IS WRONG"! THEY NEVER CONDEMN THE KILLERS/TERRORISTS AS THEY THEMSELVES FEAR FOR THEIR LIVES! NO ONE CONDEMNS TALIBAN/AL QAIDA/SIMI/INDIAN MUJHADEEN ETC.

IT WAS JUST A PR WORK BY THE MUSLIMS IN INDIA

Im A Muslim Canadian Who Speaks about Politics and Interested in Joining the Canadian Forces and learning Hebrew. This Contradicts all your Opinions dosent it. I Am Proud To be Arab, I Am Proud To Be Canadian, and I Am Proud to be Muslim. I Hate Terrorists. Just Because there Was a War Between Muslims and Sikhs Dosent Mean You Should Hate Every Muslim. I For Instance Dont Hate Jews. I Support the Fact that They want there Land, I Just dont Like the Politicians Involved And The Fanatics As in Any Other Race Religion Or Believes. You Are Taking Everything and Using Selective Hearing or Reading. If I Say "John Saw Someone Kill Steve" It Can Be Used To Say "John Saw Someone Kill Steve". All Im Saying is, Listing to the Whole Topic Instead of Picking the Words you want to Change the Meaning. Educate Yourself Even About Opinions you Do not Support, Becouse in the End Knowladge is Power.

wigon

08-12-2008, 08:40 PM

Im A Muslim Canadian Who Speaks about Politics and Interested in Joining the Canadian Forces and learning Hebrew. This Contradicts all your Opinions dosent it. I Am Proud To be Arab, I Am Proud To Be Canadian, and I Am Proud to be Muslim. I Hate Terrorists. Just Because there Was a War Between Muslims and Sikhs Dosent Mean You Should Hate Every Muslim. I For Instance Dont Hate Jews. I Support the Fact that They want there Land, I Just dont Like the Politicians Involved And The Fanatics As in Any Other Race Religion Or Believes. You Are Taking Everything and Using Selective Hearing or Reading. If I Say "John Saw Someone Kill Steve" It Can Be Used To Say "John Saw Someone Kill Steve". All Im Saying is, Listing to the Whole Topic Instead of Picking the Words you want to Change the Meaning. Educate Yourself Even About Opinions you Do not Support, Becouse in the End Knowladge is Power.

Wow that was excellent and very well summarized.
That is basically why I started studying Islam. I wanted to see if what the media said about Muslims was true. What I have found is a HUGE range of beliefs and understandings in Islam but with central core beliefs that are solid and compatible with the West and other religions.
I am glad you spoke up and I hope you continue to make your voice heard loud and clear. Islam needs strong and intelligent young leaders like you who can lead the religion into the future Inshallah.

Wigon

MG 3

08-13-2008, 04:10 AM

So if we publish a cartoon, you should publish one and we would give a **** about it. You wouldn't see people on the streets threatening you, would you?. That is the difference and it is a huge difference. If you don't agree with something you complain, but there are ways to do it.

I hope moderates would make more noise and really try to neutralise those rough elements in your community.

You see you ppl still do not get the significance of those cartoons. For you they were mere images but for us it was something very close to our beliefs. I met ppl who have told me that we should have made cartoons of Jesus to get back at the west and this simple statement showed their complete ignorance.

The solution is that both sides need to be a alot more understanding. Going back to what wigon said western media should treat the cartoon like they treat the gay issue. The reason that ppl stay away from it is that it is backed by a threat too.

Calanen

08-13-2008, 04:34 AM

If you make cartoons of gay ppl and call them fags, the west will be up in flames.

Point is if you make fun of us and then expect us to be quiet about it then your mistaken.

Again, make as much noise as you like in a civilised protest - but dont behave like a pack of angry school kids who dropped their ice cream cone.

The West would not be up in flames - that is a ridiculous statement. On a daily basis, the Arabic world and the Persians in Iran make anti-Jewish statements and anti-Jewish cartoons, anti-Jewish documentaries, talkshows, speeches in a manner that is similar to comments made by the Third Reich about Jews, full of wild conspiracy theories and other baseless idiocy. Other than protest, usually only by making verbal statements, the Jews don't blow anyone up, have riots, overturn cars. They have in my view, more of a reason to be annoyed about their portrayal in the Islamic world than anyone in the Islamic world has about their portrayal in the West. Most of the poor image of Islam in the West is caused by the actions of people who say, that they are acting in the name of Islam to commit terror. Fix that, and improve your image. Stop focussing on trying to get the West to ignore it.

The Islamic world is intolerant of criticism, and is too brittle and sensitive to the slightest insult, real or perceived. They want the world to tolerate Islam, but also want the world to realise that Islam is not going to be at all tolerant of anyone else. The whole tough guy macho, fire AKs in the air, allah akbar and disproportionate and extreme responses to any perceived insult is not how civilised people should behave, and is never justified because of cartoons.

If you think the San Francisco Gay Community is going to be doing bombing of embassies, think again. The Gay Community had clashes with Russia about gay rights, and nothing got burnt, no RPGs were fired, and no one died.

Going berserk in relation to a cartoon..can never be justified, no matter who it is about. Never. No riots, no property damage, no threats, no deaths. Ever. Only sensible, protests like civilised people are all that should be permissible.

Calanen

08-13-2008, 04:37 AM

Im A Muslim Canadian Who Speaks about Politics and Interested in Joining the Canadian Forces and learning Hebrew. This Contradicts all your Opinions dosent it

So you would be cool about going to Afghanistan and killing the Taliban? I'm not saying you shouldnt be - plenty of ANA doing just that. Just want to see what your point of view is, and your rationale for taking that view - that you would fight other muslims on behalf of Canada.

Tokamak

08-13-2008, 05:41 AM

We have but until it isnt backed by a threat nothing gets done in the world today.

So you support all those threats of beheading and bombings then? or at least accept them and say well it is not that bad?.

Tokamak

08-13-2008, 05:43 AM

Again, make as much noise as you like in a civilised protest - but dont behave like a pack of angry school kids who dropped their ice cream cone.

The Islamic world is intolerant of criticism, and is too brittle and sensitive to the slightest insult, real or perceived. They want the world to tolerate Islam, but also want the world to realise that Islam is not going to be at all tolerant of anyone else. The whole tough guy macho, fire AKs in the air, allah akbar and disproportionate and extreme responses to any perceived insult is not how civilised people should behave, and is never justified because of cartoons.

If you think the San Francisco Gay Community is going to be doing bombing of embassies, think again. The Gay Community had clashes with Russia about gay rights, and nothing got burnt, no RPGs were fired, and no one died.

Going berserk in relation to a cartoon..can never be justified, no matter who it is about. Never. No riots, no property damage, no threats, no deaths. Ever. Only sensible, protests like civilised people are all that should be permissible.

MG 3 please read Calanen comments, this is the point I am trying to make.

Ali Baba

08-13-2008, 09:43 AM

So you would be cool about going to Afghanistan and killing the Taliban? I'm not saying you shouldnt be - plenty of ANA doing just that. Just want to see what your point of view is, and your rationale for taking that view - that you would fight other Muslims on behalf of Canada.
Yes I Would, Actually thats one of my Reasons of Joining, The Taliban and all other Terrorist Organization that Are Run by Fanatics Wreck and destroy the Image of Islam. Thats why I Would love nothing more then to kill these Fanataic assholes who ****ed up the name of my Religion. As long as These Terrorist Organizations Continue. It will be hell for anyone with the same name as me or same belif. I Also Love the Fact that Canada Is My Host nation, theyve Givin me more then another country could, i Will Gladly Repay them, By Defending any Other Canadian And the Meaning of Canada.

wigon

08-13-2008, 10:15 AM

Again, make as much noise as you like in a civilised protest - but dont behave like a pack of angry school kids who dropped their ice cream cone.

The West would not be up in flames - that is a ridiculous statement. On a daily basis, the Arabic world and the Persians in Iran make anti-Jewish statements and anti-Jewish cartoons, anti-Jewish documentaries, talkshows, speeches in a manner that is similar to comments made by the Third Reich about Jews, full of wild conspiracy theories and other baseless idiocy. Other than protest, usually only by making verbal statements, the Jews don't blow anyone up, have riots, overturn cars. They have in my view, more of a reason to be annoyed about their portrayal in the Islamic world than anyone in the Islamic world has about their portrayal in the West. Most of the poor image of Islam in the West is caused by the actions of people who say, that they are acting in the name of Islam to commit terror. Fix that, and improve your image. Stop focussing on trying to get the West to ignore it.

The Islamic world is intolerant of criticism, and is too brittle and sensitive to the slightest insult, real or perceived. They want the world to tolerate Islam, but also want the world to realise that Islam is not going to be at all tolerant of anyone else. The whole tough guy macho, fire AKs in the air, allah akbar and disproportionate and extreme responses to any perceived insult is not how civilised people should behave, and is never justified because of cartoons.

If you think the San Francisco Gay Community is going to be doing bombing of embassies, think again. The Gay Community had clashes with Russia about gay rights, and nothing got burnt, no RPGs were fired, and no one died.

Going berserk in relation to a cartoon..can never be justified, no matter who it is about. Never. No riots, no property damage, no threats, no deaths. Ever. Only sensible, protests like civilised people are all that should be permissible.

It's not that easy Calanen. As I've repeated many times, we live in a world of complex interactions between cause and effect relationships.
You can't expect Muslims to kiss the ass of the West as the West keeps doing things in the Middle East like invading/attacking their countries which may soon happen again in Iran. Right or wrong, such attacks are perceived in the Middle East as attacks upon Islam. Not only that, but we do a hell of a lot of meddling in their affairs of nations in that region. Heck America meddles in the affairs of countries all over the world...one reason why we are not always well liked in the world. I know in Colombia we are hated for example. Even more so in Venezuela. In Georgia we have now seen the Russian response to American meddling in the affairs of the region.

Its NOT just as simple as all Muslims all listening to one person who tells them, "Uh hey guys, we need to stop the crazy stuff and behave." There is no one central leader. Futhermore only a tiny percentage of the Islamic world went nuts over those cartoons and rioted. The majority of the Islamic world was angry yes, but didn't start violent acts over it.
I have first-hand experience with this when a student group at my university started posting those comics all over the campus.
I worked with our MSA chapter (Muslim Student Association) to convince them to take down the flyers and they did. No yelling, no screaming, no threats. But what I did see was an emormous amount of pain and depression that the cartoons caused them.

Images are symbols. Just like the "N" word for blacks is horrifically insulting. Hey it's just a stupid word. Why do they get all violent about that? Could it be the history behind the word that the word symbolizes?
An example of how what some people INSIST is inoffensive, is indeed highly offensive to others can be found in this recent story from the Olympics:
http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Spanish-basketball-team-poses-for-offensive-pict?urn=oly,100152

For Muslims its very similar in that the cartoons symbolize the West attacking the very foundation of their existence. To you that means nothing... to them it means everything. You may not believe in the religion but that doesn't mean that your view is the only view that matters in the world to people. Nor does it mean that your reality is their reality. Just as their beliefs are foreign and strange to you, so are some of your beliefs foreign and strange to them in some regards. Putting them down and making fun of their religion will help the process of understanding each other and developing tolerance how???

Wigon

MG 3

08-14-2008, 02:03 AM

So you support all those threats of beheading and bombings then? or at least accept them and say well it is not that bad?.

There we go. Generalization to the max. "since MG 3 is a Muslim I bet he means beheading and bombings". I mean jail time or some sort of legal arrangement that the west has in place when ever someone else is made fun of or you ppl even have laws for protection of children from bad names so why is not making fun of Islam so difficult for you.

Again, make as much noise as you like in a civilised protest - but dont behave like a pack of angry school kids who dropped their ice cream cone.

The West would not be up in flames - that is a ridiculous statement. On a daily basis, the Arabic world and the Persians in Iran make anti-Jewish statements and anti-Jewish cartoons, anti-Jewish documentaries, talkshows, speeches in a manner that is similar to comments made by the Third Reich about Jews, full of wild conspiracy theories and other baseless idiocy. Other than protest, usually only by making verbal statements, the Jews don't blow anyone up, have riots, overturn cars. They have in my view, more of a reason to be annoyed about their portrayal in the Islamic world than anyone in the Islamic world has about their portrayal in the West. Most of the poor image of Islam in the West is caused by the actions of people who say, that they are acting in the name of Islam to commit terror. Fix that, and improve your image. Stop focussing on trying to get the West to ignore it.

The Islamic world is intolerant of criticism, and is too brittle and sensitive to the slightest insult, real or perceived. They want the world to tolerate Islam, but also want the world to realise that Islam is not going to be at all tolerant of anyone else. The whole tough guy macho, fire AKs in the air, allah akbar and disproportionate and extreme responses to any perceived insult is not how civilised people should behave, and is never justified because of cartoons.

You see the cartoons were the tipping point. What you saw on TV was pent up anger that has been accumulation over decades now. LOL, if you think about it we are the most attacked and bombed society by the west and where you dont bomb us you support our enemies. Hence there is obvious anger. Th Burning and killing is never justified but then so isnt the killing of 600,000 Iraqis.

If you think the San Francisco Gay Community is going to be doing bombing of embassies, think again. The Gay Community had clashes with Russia about gay rights, and nothing got burnt, no RPGs were fired, and no one died.

The reason is that they dont make Pink or Rainbow AKs and RPGs. Come on its the gay community we are talking about here....

Going berserk in relation to a cartoon..can never be justified, no matter who it is about. Never. No riots, no property damage, no threats, no deaths. Ever. Only sensible, protests like civilised people are all that should be permissible.

Back to square one. You do not understand our sensitivities but expect us to understand your notion of free speach.

Calanen

08-14-2008, 03:27 AM

The Burning and killing is never justified but then so isnt the killing of 600,000 Iraqis.

There were never 600,000 Iraqis killed. And the bulk of Iraqis killed, were killed by other Iraqis or foreign Arabs, not by Americans.

Back to square one. You do not understand our sensitivities but expect us to understand your notion of free speach.

I dont have to understand your sensitivities. And you dont have to understand the notion of free speech. But Islam and the Islamic world, cannot tell the West what to publish or what to do in our own countries. I dont care whether you support free speech or not in Pakistan. You can have the most violent, backward, brutal, oppressive, islamist regime you like.

Just don't bring it to the West. Any part of it.

Weedlover99

08-14-2008, 04:01 AM

This speaking out against terror in India and the a petition against terrorism in Pakistan seems ridiculous. A suicide bomber is supposed to think twice because of a petition or protest?

MG 3

08-14-2008, 11:44 AM

There were never 600,000 Iraqis killed. And the bulk of Iraqis killed, were killed by other Iraqis or foreign Arabs, not by Americans.

And it wasnt the US army that invaded Iraq.

I dont have to understand your sensitivities. And you dont have to understand the notion of free speech. But Islam and the Islamic world, cannot tell the West what to publish or what to do in our own countries. I dont care whether you support free speech or not in Pakistan. You can have the most violent, backward, brutal, oppressive, islamist regime you like.

Just don't bring it to the West. Any part of it.

Yeah then why dont you stop telling us what to do in our countries and our own parts of the world. If you stick by your words than we should have the right to Nuclear weapons and the world should **** off when we want give them to our allies.

Adux

08-14-2008, 01:12 PM

And it wasnt the US army that invaded Iraq.

So they are responsible for some abdul blowing himself up in some market place. Iraqi's should be bloddy thankfull that a country like the US has saved them from the despot Saddam, and the crazy islamic ideology, gave them the real freedom Democracy, Secularism and Human Rights.

Yeah then why dont you stop telling us what to do in our countries and our own parts of the world. If you stick by your words than we should have the right to Nuclear weapons and the world should **** off when we want give them to our allies.

Dont think Pakistan has much of a choice. It is as simple as that.:)

wigon

08-14-2008, 02:59 PM

There were never 600,000 Iraqis killed. And the bulk of Iraqis killed, were killed by other Iraqis or foreign Arabs, not by Americans.

I dont have to understand your sensitivities. And you dont have to understand the notion of free speech. But Islam and the Islamic world, cannot tell the West what to publish or what to do in our own countries. I dont care whether you support free speech or not in Pakistan. You can have the most violent, backward, brutal, oppressive, islamist regime you like.

Just don't bring it to the West. Any part of it.

But on the other hand the West demands that Islamic countries change and militarily back secularists such as in Algeria and most recently (with direct military support) Ethiopian troops that invaded Somalia. So yeah indirectly we kill Muslims who want their own form of government. Then we expect them to beg for mercy and kiss our ass. All Muslims know this stuff as they are reminded of it every day in their schools, in their mosques, and on the news. Meanwhile, Westerners, especially Americans, are ignorant about the history of the United States and Europe in the Middle East.
We're not even talking ancient history here. We're talking modern history.
At any rate, you are correct that laws forbidding any insults to the Muslim prophet would never pass in most Western nations (especially the U.S.).
Furthermore that does violate a central aspect of free speech in secular nations which is the ability to be as critical as they wish about any religion. However, when such speech incites violence, there are some laws in the U.S. that concern purposefully inciting violence. When it comes down to it, there should be self-censorship in the media as a matter of common sense and just basic respect. When the cartoon issue came to the U.S., thankfully most of the media downplayed it. Only conservative blogs and forums like this have kept the issue going and going and going. Its like if CNN started hosting a political talk show with a KKK speaker who kept referring to black people by the "N" word you better believe they would get a violent reaction. It's just common sense not to do such things even if you do have the freedom of speech to say hateful things that you know will provoke an angry reaction.

Wigon

wigon

08-14-2008, 03:54 PM

So they are responsible for some abdul blowing himself up in some market place. Iraqi's should be bloddy thankfull that a country like the US has saved them from the despot Saddam, and the crazy islamic ideology, gave them the real freedom Democracy, Secularism and Human Rights.

Thankful? Not if you were Sunni and a member of the Baath party. Even the Shi'a today haven't taken to kindly to being told what to do by a foreing invader not to mention losing family from US and coalition military action in their neighborhoods. So while they may have been thankful at first, the Shi'a got very tired when the U.S. and their new government couldn't keep them secure. Hence the development of all these Shi'a militias and Iran moving in to further inflame anti-US sentimement.
Reality is a bit different for people actually living in Iraq.

Now that things are simmering down however (aside from the occasional Al-Qaeda attack), things are improving thankfully. Hopefully this period of calm relaxes and the Iraqi government will be able to fend for itself against Iranian and Saudi influences.

Dont think Pakistan has much of a choice. It is as simple as that.:)

Yeah because we said that we would blow them back into the stone age.
Now Musharraff is about to get overthrown and the new government may have a different idea. That's the result of the American government forcing Musharraff to have democratic reforms. The corrupt politicians (and the Islamist politicians) move in for the kill. Pakistan can do ALOT to hurt us. Their main weapon will be teaching nuclear technology to as many Muslim nations as possible. Syria already had a program going.
Eventually more Muslim countries will have nukes including many that hate the West. We are fueling that arms race the more we invade and bomb.
Eventually we will get to the point where nukes will be the only option before these nations attain the number of nukes and methods of delivery to hit all of our major cities. These methods include submarine launched missiles, ICBM's, cruise missiles, long range nuclear torpedoes, stealth aircraft, and the worst..... covert deployment of nukes via civilian cargo vessels, civilian airliners, or smuggled into our country through our porous borders (which includes the highly porous Canadian border).

We really don't offer many incentives for them not to make nukes as our attitude has been "do what we say or we crush you!"

Wigon

wigon

08-14-2008, 04:05 PM

This speaking out against terror in India and the a petition against terrorism in Pakistan seems ridiculous. A suicide bomber is supposed to think twice because of a petition or protest?

Yes they will think twice. Why? Because these are respected scholars speaking out. If they issue fatwas it carries weight amongst the followers of these scholars who may in turn have influence upon people they know who are militants. However the actual fatwas need to be clearly spelled out within Islamic law. I have not seen the actual fatwas. That would be more interesting to me personally as I'd like to see the method of argumentation that they use.

If you can convince a terrorist that his methods of jihad will send him to hell (because he's killing innocent people), then if he is truly religious, that will give him GREAT reason for concern about his soul and his chances for entering paradise. Because then he knows that he will answer to Allah regarding whether he truly did it for the love of Allah, or whether he did it for his own pride and ego by willfully ignoring what is taught regarding limits in jihad that do not allow killing womena and children (as well as the grave consequences of wrongfully declaring takfir upon another Muslim).

Wigon

Ulytau

08-14-2008, 05:16 PM

First i dont get a point..

When for example when Indian muslims speak they beein only Indian Muslim when a terrorist which feedin herself/himself from vahabism do terror attack they beein muslim and they doing that for ''ALL'' muslims for some dudes..

My ideas are totally clear about religious issues..

Visited Synagog ''I hope i wrote true in English'' , Church etc or had chance speakin with em,had chance when they speakin etc and honestly as a Turk i cant see any difference..

Then we turn to west issue or Freedom of Speech?

Rememberin after cartoon issue my speakings with other people rememberin clearly when i ask to em some questions i easy to see our reaction and how they care freedom of speech..

Its not about West or East issue every nations every people have differences about their cultures too as a who livin in a touristic place i can see that clearly everytime and everywhere..

Everything have limits maybe we need to remember that and this is why people need rules and systems or there will be anarchy..

Adux

08-14-2008, 05:35 PM

Wigon,

You are getting a bit side tracked, You are forgetting there are certain things that cannot be achieved by 'lending hand' idea. I understand and agree with your other concepts. The formation of militia was inevitable eversince Iran and Saudi Arabia got ready for power struggle. it is the US which is shooting both sides. Though I have to agree US made some fundamental mistakes in securing the country.

Pakistan has been exporting terror long before US came into the scene. There was no other option of US with regards to Pakistan.US has helped Pakistan far more than any nation in the past 60 years, therefore the term "In Pakistan, It is Allah, Army, And America".

Utlimately the current muslim generation want an Islamised World, We have come too far along in this world to go back to the 7th century. Hopefully the coming generations are not like this.

wigon

08-14-2008, 06:05 PM

nah I doubt it. I think that Muslims will get tired of religion being shoved down their throats in countries that are being slowly taken over by Wahhabis. There will be a counter-movement and in the West we must be prepared to assist in that counter-movement. You see it in Iran, but sadly the U.S. has not fasciliated the vast discontent with extremist Ayatollahs on the Guardian Council in Iran. That is because traditionally Iran was not so fundamentalist except during certain periods (in which the extremists were wiped out eventually).

Saudi Arabia on the other hand has always had this highly conservative and very war-like tribal tradition that has never really gone away. It's sad because I know some highly educated Saudis who are definitely not extremists. But they refuse to speak out against their country because they are very proud of being the "Guardians of Islam". More work I think should be done on fostering a moderate movement within Saudi Arabia and its academic elite and within the more open-minded members of the Saudi royal family and SANG elite paramilitary forces.

If you look at almost every radical Islamic movement in the world, they all trace their origins back to Saudi Arabia and Salafi theology with emphasis on scholars such as Ibn Tammiyah who champion Kharajjite-like ideas that were crushed at the beginning of Islamic history. Now they are just more sophisticated using the internet and other forms of media. They then blend their theology with legitimate Islamic theology in order to give them more validity.

Wigon

matthew.manhorn

08-15-2008, 05:33 AM

are there such things as "secular muslims" since those terrorists just do suicide bombings which contradicts the rules of Islam.

wigon

08-15-2008, 07:02 PM

are there such things as "secular muslims" since those terrorists just do suicide bombings which contradicts the rules of Islam.

Actually in a fashion yes, but not totally. After the first 4 Caliphs of Islam died (referred in Islam as the "4 rightly guided Caliphs"), Islamic governments have had monarchies with Islamic councils of scholars advising them. The Muslim ruler could either accept or reject the council's advice (although this at times led to civil wars as rival politicians took advantage of disagreements).

So there is a type of seperation between "church and state" to a certain extent. The level of this seperation depends on the interpretation of Islam during that historical period. No doubt it is a part of everyday life for Muslims in Muslim countries. But in most Modern Islamic nations, they have mixed codes of law that are more pragmatic and only incorporate parts of Shariat.

The fact that terrrosts do suicide bombings does not mean that they represent the entire Islamic community. If you encounter a Muslim who tries to defend suicide bombing, ask him or her to explain where in Islam it allows this. Self-sacrifice as a soldier yes...but explosives did not exist down there. So they stretch the meaning of "self-sacrifice" (found in all military doctrine) to incorporate suicide bombing even though suicide is strictly forbidden in Islam.

To further answer your question, there are "modernist" Muslims who also believe in scrapping the Shariat entirely, although they are not very popular. What is more realistic are traditional texts within Islam that teach good behavior in non-Muslim countries. I have not read any traditional texts that say to attack and sabotage the governments of foreign nations if you live in them. Such teachings are again modernist Qutbist/Al-Qaeda teachings that rely more on assumptions rather then on Islamic traditional teachings regarding Muslims living in Kafr (non-Muslim) nations.

Wigon

Calanen

08-15-2008, 07:29 PM

Yeah then why dont you stop telling us what to do in our countries and our own parts of the world. If you stick by your words than we should have the right to Nuclear weapons and the world should **** off when we want give them to our allies

The West is largely only interested in what you do in your part of the world, to the extent it affects them in the West. 9/11 was what happens when we just ignore islamic radicals doing their own thing. So we are not going to play the live and let live game anymore.

Pakistan already has nuclear weapons and probably can be trusted with them. Giving nuclear weapons to people who go berserk about a cartoon or declare jihads/fatwas on the most trivial of bases seems like not a good idea to me. And detonating a nuke in a cargo ship off the coast of the US is the likely outcome of that. If there was some way of making you detonate atomic weapons only on each other, than I might agree with your sentiment to this effect:

have the right to Nuclear weapons and the world should **** off when we want give them to our allies

but given the capacity for atomic weapons to be detonated anywhere, including on me, I think restricting their use and sale is a sensible policy.

wigon

08-15-2008, 07:55 PM

Personally I think the West should go stop any and all countries from developing nuclear weapons. I don't care if it's Brazil... you never know what wars will happen in the future. Once a country has them, its impossible to get them to get rid of them.
Case in point... Russia and America. We could very easily be heading down towards a nuclear show-down. The only good thing America has going for us is that former Soviet states like Estonia, Ukraine, and Poland are all very quickly getting on the side of the U.S. because they simply trust us more then the Russians. Putin can bully his way around all he wants but he will lose markets for Russian natural gas and oil (as European countries rapidly develop alternative energies) and respect in the same manner that America lost ALOT of respect from the world after we invaded Iraq.

At any rate, Russia is now threatening Poland strongly over the anti-ballistic missile system to be hosted by them. With Poland being a part of NATO, an attack upon them could easily lead to a full blow war that could involve nukes. As you well know, America and Russia have enough nukes to destroy the world several times over. It is doubtful that humanity would survive such a war.
:(
So now do we really want more Americas and Russias with hundreds of nukes?
Both nations need to make a treaty where they reduce their nuclear stockpiles down well below the number that would likely destroy the whole earth with radioactive fallout

At any rate.... as much as I believe that diplomacy should be used to the maximum with Iran, I DO NOT trust them with nuclear weapons and fully believe that they will use such weapons to bully their neighbors and threaten the United States and Israel.
Some of their leadership in their Guardian Council are fanatics and believe that one of them is going to be the next Mahdi right before the Day of Judgement. So in otherwords, while I have nothing againt Shi'a Muslims, some of these guys are VERY scary.
There comes a point in time, when military force must be used to prevent more horrific bloodshed later for both sides... but only when every peaceful means of resolving the crisis has been exhausted.

Wigon

MG 3

08-16-2008, 03:32 AM

MG 3

08-16-2008, 03:44 AM

The West is largely only interested in what you do in your part of the world, to the extent it affects them in the West. 9/11 was what happens when we just ignore islamic radicals doing their own thing. So we are not going to play the live and let live game anymore.

Pakistan already has nuclear weapons and probably can be trusted with them. Giving nuclear weapons to people who go berserk about a cartoon or declare jihads/fatwas on the most trivial of bases seems like not a good idea to me. And detonating a nuke in a cargo ship off the coast of the US is the likely outcome of that. If there was some way of making you detonate atomic weapons only on each other, than I might agree with your sentiment to this effect:

but given the capacity for atomic weapons to be detonated anywhere, including on me, I think restricting their use and sale is a sensible policy.

Its interesting how you are believe in action without reaction. One of the biggest reason that ppl radicalize themselves is because of the oppression of the west. Why dont you see ppl attacking RSA or China or NZ your neighbor. Its because they stay out of our affairs.
An example would be Australia. Why did Australia go to Iraq. When had Saddam ever mentioned Aus ever in his speech or threatened them. No disrespect but Aus is a very insignificant player in the global geo strategic playing field. If Aus keeps to its self than no one want to blow them or wage jihad against them.

Calanen

08-16-2008, 03:55 AM

One of the biggest reason that ppl radicalize themselves is because of the oppression of the west. Why dont you see ppl attacking RSA or China or NZ your neighbor. Its because they stay out of our affairs.

That's rubbish. Islam has been attacking the West since 700AD. The thread of jihad and slaying the unbelievers stays the same, whatever the West does. And thats what people in the West don't understand, and what you'd like us to keep believing, that if we change somehow, then the big tradition of launching jihad against the unbelievers will somehow be erased from islamic law, history and tradition. Its just a pipe dream and the belief of people who dont truly understand islam.

Radical islam has to change, or radical islam has to die. Nothing in the west needs to or will change, except for us to wake up to fight for our traditions and beliefs. Instead of cowering around trying to appease like frightened school children. The enemy within is almost as troubling as the enemy without.

The Great Satan is the biggest on the list of people the jihadis attack, but thats only because its the most powerful infidel nation. If the US is ever defeated, the other infidels will come under attack - whatever their appeasing policies.

And NZ? Yes I also note that the great Jihad against the Islands of Tahiti and Tuvulu is off to a slow start as well. Must be their muslim friendly policies.

DS73

08-16-2008, 04:04 AM

Yeah then why dont you stop telling us what to do in our countries and our own parts of the world. If you stick by your words than we should have the right to Nuclear weapons and the world should **** off when we want give them to our allies.

I believe you don't understand how NPT works. You are free to build whatever you want. Independently.
On a moment when you are asking for any equipment from countries signed NPT, NPT rules come to scene. Want cooperation? comply, otherwise f*ck off and sit in your sh*thole.

Selling weapons (of any kinds not only nuclear) to rogue organizations and countries that promote aggression is the right ticket to get isolated, helping terrorists is the tight ticket to get whacked. I really don't understand what is not clear.

The problem with Pakistan is that you cann't make anything by yourself. And whatever you get, you share with "allies" just as you say yourself.
To behave like a big country, country has to be big. Pakistan isn't.

I wonder what will happen when A'stan army will stand up on their feet. I predict there will be sudden loss of interest in cooperation with Pakistan.
Tell us, what Pakistan can offer? What is so good coming from your country? Pak immigrants?

Calanen

08-16-2008, 04:10 AM

Tell us, what Pakistan can offer? What is so good coming from your country? Pak immigrants?

Marble I believe. I've been told that if I were to import Marble from Pakistan, I'd be a rich man.

DS73

08-16-2008, 04:29 AM

What I have found is a HUGE range of beliefs and understandings in Islam but with central core beliefs that are solid and compatible with the West and other religions.
Wigon

So what if you are going to enlighten us. What these central core beliefs are, what nations practice it? And please show us one example of their successful application, that is well developing islam country with liberal western values and freedom of religion (initial step for "compatibility with other religions"). I see you are still writing about some theoretical islam that exists only in your head, and of course about what WEST SHOULD DO.
You are interested in Islam, you have to evolve, to change it, appapt to something more modern. Wtvr. Do whatever you want. Why US, or any other western country has to bother with it?
Catholicism had to change a lot last years. who change it? americans? no, Vatican did.

Just a reminder:
Theoretically, communism sounds well and pretty. Practice on the other hand showed, that all communism regimes quickly degenerate into oppressive hierarchical structures with slow to stagnant social development. Nevertheless there are still people who kill in the name of this religion. Should us governemnt make something usefull from communism as well? There are still many strong believers in latin America....

DS73

08-16-2008, 04:30 AM

Marble I believe. I've been told that if I were to import Marble from Pakistan, I'd be a rich man.

I suppose by Pakistani..

MG 3

08-16-2008, 02:09 PM

Marble I believe. I've been told that if I were to import Marble from Pakistan, I'd be a rich man.

Hardcore trucking, AKs, professionals, etc etc and if you'd imort anything from Pak you'll be a rich man. The margins are astronomical.

I believe you don't understand how NPT works. You are free to build whatever you want. Independently.
On a moment when you are asking for any equipment from countries signed NPT, NPT rules come to scene. Want cooperation? comply, otherwise f*ck off and sit in your sh*thole.

Who told you that we want co-operation. A few more years and we'll get what we need from China or Russia.

Selling weapons (of any kinds not only nuclear) to rogue organizations and countries that promote aggression is the right ticket to get isolated, helping terrorists is the tight ticket to get whacked. I really don't understand what is not clear. KSA, Syria, Turkey, UAE and Sudan are not rogue states or aggressors. AQ and the Taliban will never have our nukes. The only reason that such a hype is created by your media is to build the same kind of rubbish allegations and pressure that the west created before invading Iraq on false grounds.

The problem with Pakistan is that you cann't make anything by yourself. And whatever you get, you share with "allies" just as you say yourself.
To behave like a big country, country has to be big. Pakistan isn't.Who said that we are a big meaning powerful country. We are a developing nation and dont have a $400b military budget. But we get stuff done and produce weapons that are just as effective as the wests.

I wonder what will happen when A'stan army will stand up on their feet. I predict there will be sudden loss of interest in cooperation with Pakistan.
Tell us, what Pakistan can offer? What is so good coming from your country? Pak immigrants?HAHAHAHAHA! An army that does not represent the 60% of the population. Right now we are playing nice with Astan. We can starve them to death because everything from wheat to toilet paper goes from here. And if the ISI and Army were really helping the Taliban then you would have been out of Astan by now.

wigon

08-16-2008, 04:01 PM

So what if you are going to enlighten us. What these central core beliefs are, what nations practice it? And please show us one example of their successful application, that is well developing islam country with liberal western values and freedom of religion (initial step for "compatibility with other religions"). I see you are still writing about some theoretical islam that exists only in your head, and of course about what WEST SHOULD DO.
You are interested in Islam, you have to evolve, to change it, appapt to something more modern. Wtvr. Do whatever you want. Why US, or any other western country has to bother with it?
Catholicism had to change a lot last years. who change it? americans? no, Vatican did.

Just a reminder:
Theoretically, communism sounds well and pretty. Practice on the other hand showed, that all communism regimes quickly degenerate into oppressive hierarchical structures with slow to stagnant social development. Nevertheless there are still people who kill in the name of this religion. Should us governemnt make something usefull from communism as well? There are still many strong believers in latin America....

The central core elements of Islam I speak of are simply the 5 central pillars of Islam:
Only if they are denied the right to practice the 5 central pillars of Islam do they have problems. These 5 pillars are:

1.Shahada (profession of faith in One God with Mohammad as his messenger)
2.Salah (Daily Prayers)
3.Zakah (tax given to charities for the poor)
4. Sawm (Fasting during the Ramadan period) and
5. Hajj (Pilgrimage to Mecca).

These are the central aspects of the faith.

Turkey and Indonesia are good examples of modern democratic nations made up of Muslims and that have freedom of religion although not perfect. In most Muslim countries you are not allowed to proselytize.
If you are a Christian fundy who does that stuff, well then yeah you'll hate other religions no matter what as they are not Christianity and thus condemn their followers to eternal hell and damnation (in fundy Christian belief). I should also note that Indonesia is increasingly becoming more conservative in Islamic beliefs due to the millions of dollars being poured into that country through Saudi funding. America is doing nothing to combat this. There are several Indonesian organizations that are, but they are poorly funded and Wahhabists have slowly been creeping into their governments often under false pretenses. I can assure you that Indonesia was nothing like that when I lived there for 2 1/2 years.
Other highly modernized Islamic countries include the UAE which is about as ultra-modern as you can get...all without oil revenue. They use nothing but capitalist ideas to attain their prosperity. Now as far as tolerance goes I don't know much about their laws. I only that they have a tremendous number of Westerners living there and working there so I doubt its very oppressive.

As for as communism is concerned, don't compare that to Islam. They are apples and oranges with far different belief systems. Islam has nothing against capitalism and in fact their prophet worked for a powerful business woman who ran caravans and who was a widow. She eventually became his wife even though she was quite a bit older. He did not marry again until after her death. Nowhere in the Qu'ran or Hadiths does it call for all wealth to be spread out equally. The only thing close to that is the poor tax. Also rich Muslims have the responsibility to be community leaders and be the first to donate money in community causes such as building a new mosque or funding a festival celebration.

As far as communism is concerned, what you see in Latin America today is a far cry from real communism. It has also developed quite a bit in how its practiced in that it is evolving more into a European form of socialist beliefs. Here in America we have tons of socialism so communist/Marxist ideas have apprently rooted themselves firmly in American soil. Examples include public transportation, public schools (although those are a pre-Marx idea), social security/medicare/medicaid, and our military which is a highly socialized system and has socialized health care.
Blame FDR's "New Deal". Apparently FDR was the biggest American Commie ever. The before him you had that pro-labor nut-case Theodore Roosevelt who started our National Parks system. So he was a commie and a tree-hugger!!! Damn him!
So yeah, surprise surprise, their commies are amongst us and have been amongst us for a long time!!!!

Wigon

DS73

08-19-2008, 03:30 PM

Who told you that we want co-operation. A few more years and we'll get what we need from China or Russia.

Both countries are members of NPT. Same rules apply.
Btw. you will get something from Russia when hell will freeze over. They have too good agreements with India for that.

KSA, Syria, Turkey, UAE and Sudan are not rogue states or aggressors. AQ and the Taliban will never have our nukes. The only reason that such a hype is created by your media is to build the same kind of rubbish allegations and pressure that the west created before invading Iraq on false grounds.
You mysteriously omitted NK, anyway your country is not exactly the most stable country in the world, and Taliban feels like at home in your country, isn't?

Who said that we are a big meaning powerful country. We are a developing nation and dont have a $400b military budget. But we get stuff done and produce weapons that are just as effective as the wests.
Like what? Example of one domestically designed and produced weapon please.
Btw. Nice number.

HAHAHAHAHA! An army that does not represent the 60% of the population.
At present. Things change rather fast there. If not pak "attention" would be definitely faster.

Right now we are playing nice with Astan. We can starve them to death because everything from wheat to toilet paper goes from here. And if the ISI and Army were really helping the Taliban then you would have been out of Astan by now.Did you ever hear about Air bridge to Berlin?
Idea of direct pak aggression on ISAF sounds very interesting. Indians definitely would be happy to see that. Outcome is easily predictable.