Trigger happy IDF... Extreme views.

[fdt]

Transcript of one of the threads from Kahane org (radical site) forum:

http://www.kahane.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Unedited;action=display;num=1085938690

He who has mercy on the cruel.....

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Rak Kach


On Saturday morning as the elite Paratroop Brigade unit was wrapping up a daily anti-terror sweep in Balata, in the Shechem area, shots rang out, striking company commander Captain Shahar Ben-Yishai, 25. Bullets entered his chest area from the side, a small area not protected by the ceramic body armor. The force did not return fire fearing they would hit innocent civilians since they were located in a residential area. They immediately evacuated their mortally wounded commander who died a short time later.


I once knew an anti-semite who used to joke that the IDF stands for I Don't Fight.
Unfortunately that is becoming more and more a reality.
This was a captain, an older officer normally when such a person is killed the officer's subordinates pay back those responsible or at the very least catch or kill those who pulled the trigger.
The entire army has been brainwashed to follow this idiotic concept of "purity of arms" where when their own men get picked off like target practice they do nothing lest they harm even the hair on the head of an "innocent civilian".
Purity of arms means protecting the lives of the "good guys" at ALL costs. This warped demented attempt at morality is just the opposite.

With such an attitude the Arabs will G-d forbid run us into the ground very soon.

I think it is time for me to stop reading the news, it just raised my blood pressure.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BK

I can't bare to hear about these kind of things!

They make me so upset and angry!

I can't believe they didn't return fire! Those "civilians" wouldn't get in the way so much if we shot a few of them to peices every once in a while!
IP Logged

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pulsa dnura


Rav Kahane said, "The Arabs can never destroy the Jewish army; only the Jews can..."

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Nebojsa_Yitzchak_M

Camp-David, Sinai pull-out, Madrid, Oslo are malignant carvings of Israel, tactics that ties arms of Israeli army in order not to “offend” our enemies… is FANATICALLY and CRIMINALLY STUPID! General Douglas Macarthur once said “In the war there is no substitute to the victory” only one side is winning while other is running who is running in Israel?? Thugs or the Jews?

The "Geneva Convention" qualifies "Open City" as declared as non-beleaguered peaceful city under strict control of the city-officials to warrant and to maintain law and order which would prevent ANY HOSTILITIES to the armed forces entering the "OPEN CITY". It is onus on city fathers to maintain the status of the "Open City" failing of which it will become a "Fortress City"

By the "Geneva Convention" the definition of the "FORTRESS CITY" is urban area used by the military formations for combat purposes, it is up to the local authorities to protect or to expose their own citizens for which THEY ARE SOLELY RESPONSIBLE.

What IDF is smoking? Lefties are of course “high” on the "make it believe it reality" (idiots-stupor) this hysterical lunacy is now spreading into the "army’s" ranks so commie-freaks really made a farce from the Israeli Defence efforts. It is a really miracle Israel still functions as an organised society. Army is not there to “experiment” on political “wisdom” of one policy or the other, Army has only one purpose and one task TO DEFEND ISRAEL. Commander has only one task, to conduct operation successfully of course, and one responsibility to bring children back to their mothers that entrusted their sons into his hands… Commander failed militarily on BOTH accounts, yet I guess he “scored” politically? THAT IS THE PROBLEM THAT IS DEFEATING ISRAEL, AND THAT IS A MAIN PROBLEM JEWS ARE “RUNNING” … from Sinai, Gaza, Judea and Samaria, Jerusalem… Mediterranean Sea?

===============================================

On the other side of the extreme You have this.... :(

http://www.44an.com/latuff/bilder/test.jpg

[G1]

I wouldn't doubt that the bloody Vatican has been largely responsible for circulating conspiracy theories that incriminate Jews around the world. It's the old diversionary tactic!

The Germans and Jesuits, the dark powers behind the scenes, are determined - by any means necessary, to restore their unholy "Roman Empire of the German Nation" to oust the Anglo-Israelites and Jews from world power!

The Prophet Daniel foresaw an endtime configuration of Gentile states that will oppose and enslave Israel and Judah just before King Messiah brings heavenly deliverance and crushes their satanic system! Herbert W. Armstrong has correctly identified that GENTILE BEAST POWER as a German-dominated European Union, backed by the vile Catholic Church (ancient Babylonian mystery religion).

Beyond Babylon: Europe's Rise and Fall also announces the bittersweet message of Europe's rise and the end of civilization as we know it, but reassures us that it is destined to fall when God intervenes to restore biblical law and order to His good earth.

For Zion's Sake,
David Ben-Ariel

How in touch with reality this forum is. :lol:

[fdt]

How in touch with reality this forum is. :lol:

Note that this text You've cited was not written by Jewish nor Israeli but some gentile...

Read this... some views are too extreme even for this forum's moderators. That's why I mentioned it's a radical site that cannot be recognized as a balanced opinion making source... The same applies to the cartoon posted in initial post that was drawn by radical anti Israeli (if not anti-semitic) cartoonist from Brazil.

http://www.kahane.org/discus/messages/2/817.html?1019525935

[Javehn]

One thing you should understand about Kahane movement . Those are really the minority of minority and genuine fanatics (as you can understand reading their forum) . Most of Kahane bellievers are not even from Israel , but people from abroad . You probably can count the number of Kahane bellievers in Israel on your hand walking free outside the jail , and it's because they just talk the talk , and not walk the walk .

[fdt]

One thing you should understand about Kahane movement . Those are really the minority of minority and genuine fanatics (as you can understand reading their forum) . Most of Kahane bellievers are not even from Israel , but people from abroad . You probably can count the number of Kahane bellievers in Israel on your hand walking free outside the jail , and it's because they just talk the talk , and not walk the walk .I realize that very well. All I just wanted to point at this thread is - whatever IDF will do (or not do) there will always be some extremists on one or another site who will say "it's wrong". Point is that they usually know sh*t. I must say that this kahane forum thread is for me a best proof that IDF is operating on civilized basis in non civilized environment. That was my twisted way to say "kudos".

pozdrawiam cię Javehn

BTW All who considered the anti Israeli cartoons I posted before as anti-semitic.... should see truly antisemitic and one sided cartoons by Latuff - a guy whose sample cartoon I posted in this thread (least unfair of all I've seen).

[Javehn]

Yes , you right . But the problem is , that it will not satisfy both clans . From one side people will beat IDF for being unhuman , and for other half people will complain that IDF is too human (like those Kahane bellievers ) .

Here is the best proof of our soldiers behavior . The "purity of arms" that Kahane forum talked about is one of 11 IDF basic values . Every combat soldier and officer have them , and he should act according to them . This one is mine , and I prowd to say that i have a great bellieve in it , even during hard situation , otherwise , i would just haven't had the right to write about it in here . Unfortunatly , as you said , not many people knows many things about the conflict when they come to write .
Pozdro :) .

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/kod1.jpg

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/kod2.jpg
The purity of arms code .

[Moledet]

Kahana is a terror orgnization, it entered Israel's black list in 1994.

[kris777]

Here is the best proof of our soldiers behavior . The "purity of arms" that Kahane forum talked about is one of 11 IDF basic values .

what are the 11 values?

[Moledet]

Yes , you right . But the problem is , that it will not satisfy both clans . From one side people will beat IDF for being unhuman , and for other half people will complain that IDF is too human (like those Kahane bellievers ) .

Here is the best proof of our soldiers behavior . The "purity of arms" that Kahane forum talked about is one of 11 IDF basic values . Every combat soldier and officer have them , and he should act according to them . This one is mine , and I prowd to say that i have a great bellieve in it , even during hard situation , otherwise , i would just haven't had the right to write about it in here . Unfortunatly , as you said , not many people knows many things about the conflict when they come to write .
Pozdro :) .


The purity of arms code .
I've heard that law specialists and army Generals are writing new ethic code that will be used only in LICs.

[Javehn]

Yes , you right . But the problem is , that it will not satisfy both clans . From one side people will beat IDF for being unhuman , and for other half people will complain that IDF is too human (like those Kahane bellievers ) .

Here is the best proof of our soldiers behavior . The "purity of arms" that Kahane forum talked about is one of 11 IDF basic values . Every combat soldier and officer have them , and he should act according to them . This one is mine , and I prowd to say that i have a great bellieve in it , even during hard situation , otherwise , i would just haven't had the right to write about it in here . Unfortunatly , as you said , not many people knows many things about the conflict when they come to write .
Pozdro :) .


The purity of arms code .
I've heard that law specialists and army Generals are writing new ethic code that will be used only in LICs.

Yes , i also heard something about that . They are just adding some chapters if i am not mistaken .


what are the 11 values?
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/IDF_ethics.html

Another thing . Many people have very perverted view of what we do and how we act . Unfortunatly i am no great photographer - very bad one as a matter of fact and i haven't made many photos (unfortunatly - sence this would shut the mouthes of some of the speakers like arieweiner here) . Like someone said , one picture worth a thousand words .
I allready wrote the story behind this picture . Some Palestinian kids making friends with us . I noticed a thousands pictures from Iraq on that theme , but not one from our place .

http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/pales.jpg

[big80a2]

Unfortunatly i am no great photographer

Your looking for photographer, PM me ;)
just bought me a new Camera :D

[AirZone]

We rock woot
and like most of the Israelis we dont give a **** what others think... (sorry guys not to offend you or some thing) :D

[fdt]

We rock woot
and like most of the Israelis we dont give a **** what others think... (sorry guys not to offend you or some thing) :DSo go and rock Your school... (sorry kid not to offend you or some thing) :D :D

[usa320]

http://www.slightlywarped.com/forumpictures/finalword/blahblah.gif

[fdt]

Mine is better...

http://www.rotten.com/library/culture/banned-cartoons/bugsmouth.gif

[AirZone]

We rock woot
and like most of the Israelis we dont give a **** what others think... (sorry guys not to offend you or some thing) :DSo go and rock Your school... (sorry kid not to offend you or some thing) :D :D didnt offend me :D my school truly rocks (just had 2 big tests in one day...f00kers) :|

[citizen-k]

Kahana as example? rofl

Lucky for you I'm too drunk to reply your idiotic post.

Kahana...they are outlaws, criminals who are hunted down by the military and the police...

Unlike your favorite baby killers (in real life) who are supported by your friend Mr. Arafat...

Blah Blah indeed.

[born_to_love]

WOW So Kahane has extremist views! Oh no, the whole IDF wants to eat arab babies.

Kahane is a small minority that shouldnt even be allowed to represent a MINORITY of our population.

Israel arrested many kahane supporters, stopped possible attacks, and doesnt even let rabbi kahanes followers visit his gravesite ( kahana and his son were gunned down by arabs)

[fdt]

Kahana as example? rofl

Lucky for you I'm too drunk to reply your idiotic post.

Kahana...they are outlaws, criminals who are hunted down by the military and the police...

Unlike your favorite baby killers (in real life) who are supported by your friend Mr. Arafat...

Blah Blah indeed.

So one at the time:

Kahana as example? Yeah... Example of extremism. Didn't I write this?


Transcript of one of the threads from Kahane org (radical site) forum:



Read this... some views are too extreme even for this forum's moderators. That's why I mentioned it's a radical site that cannot be recognized as a balanced opinion making source...

Kahanists as outlaws and criminals?

Javehn wrote:


One thing you should understand about Kahane movement . Those are really the minority of minority and genuine fanatics (as you can understand reading their forum) . Most of Kahane bellievers are not even from Israel , but people from abroad . You probably can count the number of Kahane bellievers in Israel on your hand walking free outside the jail , and it's because they just talk the talk , and not walk the walk .

Moledet wrote


Kahana is a terror orgnization, it entered Israel's black list in 1994.

I wrote


I realize that very well. All I just wanted to point at this thread is - whatever IDF will do (or not do) there will always be some extremists on one or another site who will say "it's wrong".

My favourite baby killers and my friend Arafat... huh. Double Your health insurance sum and say this to me again... face to face.

Indeed You've been too lazy to read whole thread and too drunk to understand what's written.

[Sayeret]

An interesting thing to take notice to is how relatively few extremists there really has been are in Israel. You would think more people who were attacked by the Palestinians would want to get revenge yet they don't. In a lot of other countries that have been attacked by terrorists some of their citzens have responded with terrorism. For example in Northren Ireland a small number of the Protestants have formed terrorist groups in response to the IRA. I'm not trying to say that the Israelis are better than everyone else but people who say that Israel have terrorists too like Baruch Goldstein and the Kahanists need to realize that thats a relatively small number of people compared to how many have been in other countries that have suffered from terrorism.

[Javehn]

Kahana as example? rofl

Lucky for you I'm too drunk to reply your idiotic post.

Kahana...they are outlaws, criminals who are hunted down by the military and the police...

Unlike your favorite baby killers (in real life) who are supported by your friend Mr. Arafat...

Blah Blah indeed.

זה מה שהוא אמר , חתיכת פסיכולוג משוגע , תלמד לקרוא :) .
הוא אמר שאם קיצוניים כמו כהנה ככה חושבים על צה"ל , אז סימן שצה"ל טוב וכו וכו וכו .
השתכרת חזק ,הה ? :lol:

Drunken shrink rofl

[G1]

Kahana as example? rofl

Lucky for you I'm too drunk to reply your idiotic post.

Kahana...they are outlaws, criminals who are hunted down by the military and the police...

Unlike your favorite baby killers (in real life) who are supported by your friend Mr. Arafat...

Blah Blah indeed.

I can post things that completely miss the point of the thread and say dumb things if I just claim I'm drunk! That's a great idea.

[Javehn]

So why don't you do it ? I do it all the time ;)

[Mr. Nielsen]

An interesting thing to take notice to is how relatively few extremists there really has been are in Israel.

That would be depend on the defintion of extremism.



For example in Northren Ireland a small number of the Protestants have formed terrorist groups in response to the IRA.

Northern Ireland is perhaps not the best example, as it is an internal british conflict. Whereas the Israeli-Palestinian one is an international conflict.

Also it's my impression that the british army have been quite evenhanded. If the british army had made Rafah style rampages, there wouldn't have been the same "need" for protestant terror groups to take revenge on the other side.

[Javehn]

Northern Ireland is perhaps not the best example, as it is an internal british conflict. Whereas the Israeli-Palestinian one is an international conflict.

Also it's my impression that the british army have been quite evenhanded. If the british army had made Rafah style rampages, there wouldn't have been the same "need" for protestant terror groups to take revenge on the other side.

Oh !!! Nielsen !! Me likes !!
Why the Northern Ireland is the example of internal conflict , and our is external ? Only you and your allikes made it that way , and only more complicated then before .

Your impression also confuses between 2 different cultures and menthalities (i withhold for now speaking of shoot to kill policy , and bloody sunday ) . Even Europes bigest terrorists-basques are way more cultural and light heanded then our counterparts . And it's clear for me with your every post that you and your Euro counterparts do not wish to understand the "Libane" menthality .
You also seams to forget the difference between the goals . NA fought for NA independence , while Palestiniansfought amongst other to destruction of Israeli state , as it was clearly stated in one of 3 "No" of PLO declaration . To compare between those 2 would be clearly stupid and wrong thing to do , different geopolitics and different menthality .

So , wanna refrase yourself ? Because you should notice by know that you sound like broken record , and your tune is allready faking .

[Mark_Aspen]

Overall we're not trigger-happy, neither in the army or the police for that matter. What we suffer from mostly are too many situations (many of our own making) where 18 and 19 year olds are thrust into roles requiring the maturity more likely found in a 25-30 year old. Lets look at it another way. Our friend Javehn to some degree was was responsible for a multi-million dollar piece of tank; at what age?

The other difference, and this is what seperates us from our American and European counterparts, is that all this **** takes place either close to home or at home, in our streets sometimes. Maybe the Russians here come closest to having terror close to home.

The Ari Wieners can complain all they want about how unfair and brutal we are, and that all we need to do is end the occupation. The occupation didn't start in a vacuum, and inspite of some of the mistakes we've made (settling in Gaza), even if there weren't settlements there, I don't know that we'd still have someone to deal with on the Palestinian side. Maybe we'd have been better off by avoiding Gaza altogether in 67, and just going on to El-Arish from south of the strip.

[oldsoak]

Overall we're not trigger-happy, neither in the army or the police for that matter. What we suffer from mostly are too many situations (many of our own making) where 18 and 19 year olds are thrust into roles requiring the maturity more likely found in a 25-30 year old. Lets look at it another way. Our friend Javehn to some degree was was responsible for a multi-million dollar piece of tank; at what age?

The other difference, and this is what seperates us from our American and European counterparts, is that all this **** takes place either close to home or at home, in our streets sometimes. Maybe the Russians here come closest to having terror close to home.

The Ari Wieners can complain all they want about how unfair and brutal we are, and that all we need to do is end the occupation. The occupation didn't start in a vacuum, and inspite of some of the mistakes we've made (settling in Gaza), even if there weren't settlements there, I don't know that we'd still have someone to deal with on the Palestinian side. Maybe we'd have been better off by avoiding Gaza altogether in 67, and just going on to El-Arish from south of the strip.

What do you guys see as a possible way out ? What needs to change ?

[Moledet]

Overall we're not trigger-happy, neither in the army or the police for that matter. What we suffer from mostly are too many situations (many of our own making) where 18 and 19 year olds are thrust into roles requiring the maturity more likely found in a 25-30 year old. Lets look at it another way. Our friend Javehn to some degree was was responsible for a multi-million dollar piece of tank; at what age?

The other difference, and this is what seperates us from our American and European counterparts, is that all this **** takes place either close to home or at home, in our streets sometimes. Maybe the Russians here come closest to having terror close to home.

The Ari Wieners can complain all they want about how unfair and brutal we are, and that all we need to do is end the occupation. The occupation didn't start in a vacuum, and inspite of some of the mistakes we've made (settling in Gaza), even if there weren't settlements there, I don't know that we'd still have someone to deal with on the Palestinian side. Maybe we'd have been better off by avoiding Gaza altogether in 67, and just going on to El-Arish from south of the strip.

What do you guys see as a possible way out ? What needs to change ?
IMO, the only solution:
http://www.therightroadtopeace.com/eng/DefaultEng.html

[AirZone]

Thats one way....theres more "realistic" way (not as useful), what we are doing now.

Pulling out from Gaza like now.

[Mark_Aspen]

I disagree with Moledet, or maybe with Benny Elon. The reality as I see it, is that the Palestinians are as dedicated to "their" no less then the Jews of the Yishuv (Jews in Palestine before Israel) were to the establishment of the Israel. Unfortunately for them they have never made a concerted effort to get to their goal in a constructive, peaceful way. Before the Ari Wieners of the world jump on my case and say "... if there wasn't an occupation..." Thats Bull****. The Arabs didn't take any of these steps before the occupation; what about the years 1949 to 1966? If the starting point is that Israel is an occupier before 1967, and the negotiating is about Isreal's existance itself, then we've nothing to talk about.

When I talk about constructive, peaceful efforts, I'm talking about what the Jewish community in Palestine did from 1900 to 1948, as opposed to what the majority of the Arag population did, or more correctly didn't do. The Yishuv built the institutions of a functioning Western society, universal education, higher education, access to preventitive medical care, modern agriculture & commerce, communications and cultural institutions. So no one accuses me of gross oversight, we had an Army or two in the making also. By the termination of the British Mandate in 1948, the Yishuv had a turnkey government waiting to start up. Someone else can answer the question about what the Arab Higher Council had done.

If you're asking what I think the answer is. To me there have always been two conditions that need to be met. On the Arab side its word and actions that acknowledge and accept (won't ask for embrace) the presence of a Jewish State in the Middle-East. On the Israeli side its recognizing that we're not going to get Eretz Yisrael Ha-Shlema. (Whole of the Land of Israel) Both sides are going to have to stop letting Fundamentalist Religious sides determine policies and actions; we both have intolerant elements.

I was comfortable with the Ayalon - Nusseibah plan that was presented last fall. It was fair and realistic.

[Moledet]

Thats one way....theres more "realistic" way (not as useful), what we are doing now.

Pulling out from Gaza like now.
We will get back into Gaza after few terror attacks or when rockets will fall on Ashkelon.
And if our gov. will start working by the principals of that plan it will be more realistic then peace for more then few years with the Palestinians.
I guess that it won't happen in this generation but in the next one, after so many years of terrorism and when the citizens that are now children will grow under terror alarts and terror attacks, most of the people will be a bit more realistic, and will understand that if the arabs can't trust the Palestinians and live with them peacefuly we can't trust them either.

[W(M)D]

most of the people will be a bit more realistic, and will understand that if the arabs can't trust the Palestinians and live with them peacefuly we can't trust them either.

The arabs are forever at each others throats and not just verbally over the years, quite literally, Jordan v PLO, Lebanon v PLO, Nasser v Hussein, Iraq v Kuwait, they all richly deserve each other.
Israel certainly cannot trust those that even dont trust their own 'brothers'.

[Geezah]

Northern Ireland is perhaps not the best example, as it is an internal british conflict. Whereas the Israeli-Palestinian one is an international conflict.

Also it's my impression that the british army have been quite evenhanded. If the british army had made Rafah style rampages, there wouldn't have been the same "need" for protestant terror groups to take revenge on the other side.

Oh !!! Nielsen !! Me likes !!
Why the Northern Ireland is the example of internal conflict , and our is external ? Only you and your allikes made it that way , and only more complicated then before .

Your impression also confuses between 2 different cultures and menthalities (i withhold for now speaking of shoot to kill policy , and bloody sunday ) . Even Europes bigest terrorists-basques are way more cultural and light heanded then our counterparts . And it's clear for me with your every post that you and your Euro counterparts do not wish to understand the "Libane" menthality .
You also seams to forget the difference between the goals . NA fought for NA independence , while Palestiniansfought amongst other to destruction of Israeli state , as it was clearly stated in one of 3 "No" of PLO declaration . To compare between those 2 would be clearly stupid and wrong thing to do , different geopolitics and different menthality .

So , wanna refrase yourself ? Because you should notice by know that you sound like broken record , and your tune is allready faking .

The "shoot to kill policy" was against known terrorists and correct me if I'm wrong but helicopter gunships weren't involved, it's one thing to use a gun another to use a friggin gunship.
Another thing, I don't know why you guys always want to compare Apples to Oranges, Bloody Sunday (]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/northern_ireland/2000/bloody_sunday_inquiry/default.stm)

[Javehn]

Another thing, I don't know why you guys always want to compare Apples to Oranges, Bloody Sunday (]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/northern_ireland/2000/bloody_sunday_inquiry/default.stm)

That was my point as well , "guys" . You noticed that , no ? Bellieve it or not , but i prepared lesson in my time on a subject of Chirurgical warfare , purity of arms , and the bloody sunday was a part of it . Strange how it works , ha ?


The "shoot to kill policy" was against known terrorists and correct me if I'm wrong but helicopter gunships weren't involved, it's one thing to use a gun another to use a friggin gunship.


There is a movie in a Video and Photo section shows exactly how IDF helicopters working .I brought a picture that shows very different side of what is going on , something that BBC is neglectrig to report . But offcorse you didn't watched it , sence it's always easier to accuse on empty bagadge , isn't it , mate ?Like what i am going to do know . This is part of BBC reporting :

" This strategy led to controversy. The RUC was accused of using violence during interrogations, carrying out a shoot-to-kill policy against paramilitary suspects and providing loyalists with classified information on republican suspects. During the course of the Troubles 301 officers were killed, mainly by the IRA. The RUC was responsible for 52 deaths; the majority of them were Catholics."

RUC is Royal Ulster constabulary . You want to play occusation game ? It can work both ways . And thank god that Great Britain have more then enough in that department .

[Sayeret]

Geezah wrote:


The "shoot to kill policy" was against known terrorists and correct me if I'm wrong but helicopter gunships weren't involved, it's one thing to use a gun another to use a friggin gunship.

The Brits used armored vehicles against the IRA just like how the Israelis use armored vehicles against the Palestinians. The only reason that the Palestinians want the Israelis to stop using helos is because they really being hurt by them. Theres no place for the leaders of Hamas to hide when the Israelis use helos and thats why they want them to stop.

Research the conflict before you start saying all this crap about the Israelis being too heavy handed and mean. Your country has done things that would make what Israel actions look like child's play. Do you remember the camps that the Brits built to put the Boer civilians in during the Boer War. I like Great Britain don't think that I don't but you should realize that when guerillas and terrorists attacked them they never lasted very long because of how firece their response would be.

[DPGLAW]

I think that the IDF is right to sometimes shoot first and ask questions later, in fact I would say that they are right all the time in using that method. I mean they have no idea which of the people are Palestinians or terrorists (the two terms are interchangeable). I do not think that there is such thing as an innocent in Palestine. Or if there are innocents, they are very few.

I know this is a generalization and some people might call it bigoted but based on what I know it seems to me to be the truth I was a political science major in college and am currently finishing my Masters in the same subject so I do have an idea of what I am talking about.

The majority of those "people" want to see the Isrealis dead so if I were them I would shoot first and then worry about wether or not the person, terrorist, Palestianian, whatever you want to call them is in fact innocent. As a soldier I would want to ensure that I go home to my family every night and it is better me than him..... This line of thought also goes for the Palestinian kids because they are not kids like kids are here in a real, free country like here in the US or in Britan.....They are terrorists too

[AirZone]

I think that the IDF is right to sometimes shoot first and ask questions later, in fact I would say that they are right all the time in using that method. I mean they have no idea which of the people are Palestinians or terrorists (the two terms are interchangeable). I do not think that there is such thing as an innocent in Palestine. Or if there are innocents, they are very few.

I know this is a generalization and some people might call it bigoted but based on what I know it seems to me to be the truth I was a political science major in college and am currently finishing my Masters in the same subject so I do have an idea of what I am talking about.

The majority of those "people" want to see the Isrealis dead so if I were them I would shoot first and then worry about wether or not the person, terrorist, Palestianian, whatever you want to call them is in fact innocent. As a soldier I would want to ensure that I go home to my family every night and it is better me than him..... This line of thought also goes for the Palestinian kids because they are not kids like kids are here in a real, free country like here in the US or in Britan.....They are terrorists too Hmmm Its nice to see some one who's supporting us BUT (there's always a but ;))

You see... many palastines just want quiet and peace and to work again to feed their kids, some are brainwashed (the kids mostly) and they are brainwashed by their cleric that we are evil zionists that wants to destory them... hey i dont blame them when we enter a camp arresting one's brother or father or flatting some home of course it will make you filled with hate but its some thing we must do... we dont love it and we dont want it and of course we want a better solutions but well like you said some of them just dont want to... because of religion/politics :|

[Geezah]

Geezah wrote:


The "shoot to kill policy" was against known terrorists and correct me if I'm wrong but helicopter gunships weren't involved, it's one thing to use a gun another to use a friggin gunship.

The Brits used armored vehicles against the IRA just like how the Israelis use armored vehicles against the Palestinians. The only reason that the Palestinians want the Israelis to stop using helos is because they really being hurt by them. Theres no place for the leaders of Hamas to hide when the Israelis use helos and thats why they want them to stop.

The Brits used armored vechicles to protect themselves whiile in Republican areas not to drive over terrorists(shoot to kill remember) and from what I understand when you use gunships it's hard not to take out innocents civilians, I can't rememebr the British shoot to kill anyone that may be in the way policy!


Research the conflict before you start saying all this crap about the Israelis being too heavy handed and mean. Your country has done things that would make what Israel actions look like child's play. Do you remember the camps that the Brits built to put the Boer civilians in during the Boer War. I like Great Britain don't think that I don't but you should realize that when guerillas and terrorists attacked them they never lasted very long because of how firece their response would be.

Research........... :roll: I did some of that and everything I posted was poo pooed as false propoganda??? As far as remembering the camps during the Boer War(not personally) but seeing as we're comparing Apples for Oranges I guess the Poll Tax riot was similar to what just happened in Rafah! :roll:

[Geezah]

Another thing, I don't know why you guys always want to compare Apples to Oranges, Bloody Sunday (]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/northern_ireland/2000/bloody_sunday_inquiry/default.stm)

That was my point as well , "guys" . You noticed that , no ? Bellieve it or not , but i prepared lesson in my time on a subject of Chirurgical warfare , purity of arms , and the bloody sunday was a part of it . Strange how it works , ha ?


The "shoot to kill policy" was against known terrorists and correct me if I'm wrong but helicopter gunships weren't involved, it's one thing to use a gun another to use a friggin gunship.


There is a movie in a Video and Photo section shows exactly how IDF helicopters working .I brought a picture that shows very different side of what is going on , something that BBC is neglectrig to report . But offcorse you didn't watched it , sence it's always easier to accuse on empty bagadge , isn't it , mate ?Like what i am going to do know . This is part of BBC reporting :

" This strategy led to controversy. The RUC was accused of using violence during interrogations, carrying out a shoot-to-kill policy against paramilitary suspects and providing loyalists with classified information on republican suspects. During the course of the Troubles 301 officers were killed, mainly by the IRA. The RUC was responsible for 52 deaths; the majority of them were Catholics."

RUC is Royal Ulster constabulary . You want to play occusation game ? It can work both ways . And thank god that Great Britain have more then enough in that department .

Show me where we raised houses to the ground in NI!

[Javehn]

You didn't listen to your own advice , and now you starting to compare between the 2 conflicts ? I see . Didn't we talked about different menthalities ? As i said , even the basques are nice people comparing to some Palestinians i met, there is no way to compare what IRA did , and what Palestinians did . Different ways to fight terror , you said it yourself . Now you looking the simularities ? Get your **** together. I also understand that you didn't take a look on the helicopter movie .

So , you still didn't respond me how can 13 people without weapons be killed in one day in Deary . Collathoral damage ?
Who's army used cluster bombs in Iraq ? 1000 civilians killed or wounded from them . Collathoral damage ?

[S'13]

Another thing, I don't know why you guys always want to compare Apples to Oranges, Bloody Sunday (]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/northern_ireland/2000/bloody_sunday_inquiry/default.stm)

That was my point as well , "guys" . You noticed that , no ? Bellieve it or not , but i prepared lesson in my time on a subject of Chirurgical warfare , purity of arms , and the bloody sunday was a part of it . Strange how it works , ha ?


The "shoot to kill policy" was against known terrorists and correct me if I'm wrong but helicopter gunships weren't involved, it's one thing to use a gun another to use a friggin gunship.


There is a movie in a Video and Photo section shows exactly how IDF helicopters working .I brought a picture that shows very different side of what is going on , something that BBC is neglectrig to report . But offcorse you didn't watched it , sence it's always easier to accuse on empty bagadge , isn't it , mate ?Like what i am going to do know . This is part of BBC reporting :

" This strategy led to controversy. The RUC was accused of using violence during interrogations, carrying out a shoot-to-kill policy against paramilitary suspects and providing loyalists with classified information on republican suspects. During the course of the Troubles 301 officers were killed, mainly by the IRA. The RUC was responsible for 52 deaths; the majority of them were Catholics."

RUC is Royal Ulster constabulary . You want to play occusation game ? It can work both ways . And thank god that Great Britain have more then enough in that department .

Show me where we raised houses to the ground in NI!

Show me when the IRA used suicied bombers, show me when the goal of the IRA was the destruction of Britain. I don't know how things work by you but to us the lives of our civilians and soldiers are more in important than houses and if destroying a house used as cover for terrorists or as a hiding place for weapons or entrances to weapon smuggling tunnels, will save the lives of Israeli soldiers and civilians then we shouldn't think twice about destroying it.

[oldsoak]

You didn't listen to your own advice , and now you starting to compare between the 2 conflicts ? I see . Didn't we talked about different menthalities ? As i said , even the basques are nice people comparing to some Palestinians i met, there is no way to compare what IRA did , and what Palestinians did . Different ways to fight terror , you said it yourself . Now you looking the simularities ? Get your **** together. I also understand that you didn't take a look on the helicopter movie .

So , you still didn't respond me how can 13 people without weapons be killed in one day in Deary . Collathoral damage ?
Who's army used cluster bombs in Iraq ? 1000 civilians killed or wounded from them . Collathoral damage ?

Quite easy to explain - we are guilty. Are you innocent ?

[Javehn]

Quite easy to explain - we are guilty. Are you innocent ?

That is not my point . I would preffered that people like Geeza would not perform such an accusations . This is infact not my style , as you noticed from my tank-net postings .

[fdt]

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/cartoons/t95p63.gif

[Geezah]

Quite easy to explain - we are guilty. Are you innocent ?

That is not my point . I would preffered that people like Geeza would not perform such an accusations . This is infact not my style , as you noticed from my tank-net postings .

So the peace keeping between the Protestents and Catholics in Northern Ireland by the British is justified and the peacekeeping in Israel is ??????Sorry are the IDF peace keeping????

[Javehn]

Are you reffering to British army and Ulster constabulary actions as peace keepings ? Peace keeping in nature is passive mission .

And next time reffer to IDF actions as "life keeping" , i bellieve it is more important then peace keeping . Life keeping is when you stop a person with allready a suicide belt around him , that supposed to blow himself amongst civilians inside of Israel . So , when i stoped him , i did it inside Palestinian city , and perhaps from my shooting i damaged the road and nearby fence . **** happends , it is a war . And we try to do it under the best parameters , look on the picture on previous page , that is the images you will never see on BBC , and that information will not feed you (unlike one sided information you get) .
And you still didn't answered S13 questions , and mine . Sence when Catolics put a bomb on themself and go blow up in the middle of Londonderry on a daily basis ?

[oldsoak]

Quite easy to explain - we are guilty. Are you innocent ?

That is not my point . I would preffered that people like Geeza would not perform such an accusations . This is infact not my style , as you noticed from my tank-net postings .

OK. I understand that the situation you find yourselves in is not a good one. A lot of the criticism levelled against Israeli policy is because we feel that the way you deal with your current security situation will not work. How do we know this ? - because we ourselves went down similiar path and achieved nothing. Unfortunately, because you situation is quite different in a number of ways, we cant guarantee our way will work either.
:(

[Javehn]

We allready tried to act simmilar mate .
The legacy of it is ruined DCO buildings , the M16's that Palestinians using to fire on Israeli (Oslo present) , and suffery from both sides . We have no choice and we have to live together (i personally don't bellieve that transfer is optional), but in present situation where there are no leaders to discust amongst themself , and terror / crime gangs feeling the gap on the Palestinian society , and this is much more explosive situation then it was in NI .
So what is the point of comparing ? There is also the famous middle eastern menthality , of "I have to proove everybody i am the man" and so on ... Europeans have to work hard to understand such menthality , there is no truth in judging people by your own menthality .and way of thinking .

[Geezah]

And you still didn't answered S13 questions , and mine . Sence when Catolics put a bomb on themself and go blow up in the middle of Londonderry on a daily basis ?

I'm missing your point are you trying to say the IRA never killed anyone with nail bombs? or try the pub that was blown up in Guildfield(I'm not sure how many died) or try the bomb that was planted under Hammersmith bridge or when they bombed the City of London or the list goes on????

[Javehn]

Are you really so hard to get ???? This is allready 3 post that i correct you . Have you find out that the word daily is in bold text ? Do you know what daily basis means ? Perhaps it means , on daily basis ? Let me give you a little statistic , on average day , a number of warnings conserning of suicideacts comes up to 30 . 30 in one day . Do you recieve my point now , or should i use next time color text and bigger font as well ?

You think you are talking with stupid people , or fairly tail living ones ? Get your **** together , and you are still avoiding to answer the questions for the forth time .

What is hard to understand ? Yes , we are heavy handed . Because it is not only the life of the soldiers on line there , like in Iraq . It is also the life of civilians , to whom after 50 minutes of easy walking a terrorist from Jenin can get to Afula city for example . Margin of error , heard about that ? It's zero for us , nada , nothing , non . Soldier that don't stop the terrorist in Jenin , after 30 minutes it is his family back home . We do not have any strategic depth what so ever . It is smaller then zero . There is no front and rear (civilians in this case) . So , it is the choice : We will turn our strees to combat area , and closed military state , or we turn their area that way .
What do you think will be chosen ?

[oldsoak]

I think we are also talking about rationality here. The IRA/INLA did follow a set of "rules" - there were coded messages etc. ten minute warnings etc and they were quite mindful of the publicity each terrorist action would bring - if onlyto ensure their sponsors didnt walk out on them. The Palestinians organisations do not seem to make the disitnction between a civilian and those who are not.

[Sayeret]

Geezah you still haven't answered my question of why the Brits used those camps against the Boer civilians back in the late 1800s.

Or what about all those people made slaves from Africa by the British?

Or how the British handled riots and revelutionaries?

[Sayeret]

Geezah the terrorism the IRA carried out against the British is very different compared to what the Palestinians do to Israel. Like you've always said its like comparing apples to oranges. The IRA never used suicide bombers. I'm sorry about the people killed by the IRA but the way the IRA carries out attacks isn't as deadly or cruel as the way the Palestinians carry out attacks.

Also the IRA often did try to target only police and government officials not civilians.

[oldsoak]

Geezah you still haven't answered my question of why the Brits used those camps against the Boer civilians back in the late 1800s.

Or what about all those people made slaves from Africa by the British?

Or how the British handled riots and revelutionaries?

I can answer that. The original idea of concentration camps was literally to get people into one central point where they could be administered and isolated. The Boers were a highly mobile guerilla force and used Boer farms as places to obtain food, rest, medical treatment, intelligence etc. In order to win the war, the British had to cut off the Boers from these supplies - so they got the Boer civilians off the farms and into camps - the same technique used in the Malayan emergency in the fifties. The British did not appreciate the difficulty in administering these camps ( they had never done this before ) and the result was tradgedy - people dying by the thousands due to disease and malnutrtion - and for that the administration of the time is cuplable . The British army itself lost thousands due to disease in that war, so G*d help you if you were an enemy civilian. The issue of slavery is one that all European nations faced until the mid 1800's. We find it awful now, but in those times, thats the way the world ran and owning a slave was not something considered immoral then. - the disease of slavery goes back to before the British existed as a nation and every nation is guilty of slavery at some time in its past. To their credit, in 1807 a bill was passed forbidding the transport of slaves on British ships and in 1833 slavery was abolished in Britian and its colonies.
The treatment of riots and revolutionaries was no different if not better than that used by most powers at the time. British laws of the time were harsh by modern standards but no more so than what was then considered the civilised world. Yes, we were remarkably stupid in places like Ireland and North America and the results speak for themselves, so please dont copy us anyone.
rgds

[alexbmn]

I'm quite surprised at the response of the Israeli posters to that post taken from that Kahanist website. Ok Kahanists are extreme but are you guys telling me that the lives of Israeli soldiers (yours basically) are less important then terror supporting,terror enabling,civilian today suicide bomber tomorrow enemy civilians? Seriously as a Jew and a very strong supporter of Israel I'm no way happy with that "purity of arms" doctine. I think thousands of Israeli soldiers and civilians with their lives because of it,but didnt have to. The security of Israel's own people should matter more,no? Having "most moral army"(especially with all the "great recognition" the IDF gets for that achievement) is a title an army could do without,and all other armies are quite unconcerned with not having it. I've read that Israeli soldiers let Palestinians spit at them without doing anything in return, and I've seen photos of Palestininas climbing on top of Israeli armored vehicles during operations without any fear. It's just sad. Just very sad. The IDF used to be something that was respected and feared.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I'm quite surprised at the response of the Israeli posters to that post taken from that Kahanist website. Ok Kahanists are extreme but are you guys telling me that the lives of Israeli soldiers (yours basically) are less important then terror supporting,terror enabling,civilian today suicide bomber tomorrow enemy civilians? Seriously as a Jew and a very strong supporter of Israel I'm no way happy with that "purity of arms" doctine. I think thousands of Israeli soldiers and civilians with their lives because of it,but didnt have to. The security of Israel's own people should matter more,no? Having "most moral army"(especially with all the "great recognition" the IDF gets for that achievement) is a title an army could do without,and all other armies are quite unconcerned with not having it. I've read that Israeli soldiers let Palestinians spit at them without doing anything in return, and I've seen photos of Palestininas climbing on top of Israeli armored vehicles during operations without any fear. It's just sad. Just very sad. The IDF used to be something that was respected and feared.
I think that you will find that the IDF are feared and respected but maybe not enough for your own tastes, if this is so explain to us how the IDF should go about their business.

[Geezah]

Geezah you still haven't answered my question of why the Brits used those camps against the Boer civilians back in the late 1800s.

Or what about all those people made slaves from Africa by the British?

Or how the British handled riots and revelutionaries?

I havent; had access to a PC for the last week so I apoligize for the late response,
As you can see someone else answered your question on the Boer's? as far as slaves form Africa? maybe that would also be a question sent out to the Spanish, Dutch, Portuquese(?) and French members sorry if I left anyone out(not quite sure where that came from) also the handling of riots? last major riot I remember was the Poll Tax riot and your point is what, I don't remeber helicopter gunships firing on the crowds?

[Javehn]

I don't remeber helicopter gunships firing on the crowds?

Shooting 13 unarmed civilians and covering this up don't ring any bell no more ? Still didn't answered to me , after 3 pages . You were said clean and simple , that it was not deliberate attack . And here is the best proove to you , to help you keep your mouth shut .

http://www1.idf.il/SIP_STORAGE/DOVER/files/8/31788.wmv
Clip from Helicopter camera in Gaza strip operation , it clearly shows that when helicopter ID armed personnel it waited until some passing by car drive away . In second part , it is possible to see AT missile being fired , but the helicopter don't fire back , because there are children near by .

Or perhaps the claster bombs used in Iraq , and now investigated as possible war crime ? Oldsoak sade it simpe , we are guilty . I will say so too . How about you ? Instead of shoving your nose in my fridge , why don't you go clean yours , will you ?

[W(M)D]

last major riot I remember was the Poll Tax riot and your point is what, I don't remeber helicopter gunships firing on the crowds?

Geezah - That was because it was a civil riot (as you may remember), the demonstrators also came from all walks of British society not a different hostile nationality only. Also, the demonstrators did not support armed terrorism, and did not advocate death & destruction to their opponents etc perhaps that is why the riots were not opposed by gunships.

[Geezah]

Geezah the terrorism the IRA carried out against the British is very different compared to what the Palestinians do to Israel. Like you've always said its like comparing apples to oranges. The IRA never used suicide bombers. I'm sorry about the people killed by the IRA but the way the IRA carries out attacks isn't as deadly or cruel as the way the Palestinians carry out attacks.

Also the IRA often did try to target only police and government officials not civilians.



1972 Bloody Friday nine are killed and many injured as Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) set of 22 bombs.

1974 Guildford pub bombing by the IRA leaves 5 dead and 44 injured.

1974 Birmingham pub bombing by the IRA kills 19 dead, 182 people are injured.

1979 Lord Mountbatten and three others are killed by IRA

1982 Two bombs in Hyde Park and Regent's Park, London by the IRA killl 8 members of the Household Cavalry and the Royal Green Jackets seven horses are also killed.

1983 Harrods bomb by the IRA. Six are killed (including three police officers) and 90 wounded during Christmas shopping at the West London department store.

1984 IRA bomb in the Grand Hotel Brighton 5 are killed in an attempt to kill members of the British cabinet.

1985 IRA mortar attack kills nine soldiers in Newry

1987 Enniskillen massacre. Remembrance Day parade in Enniskillen, County Fermanagh is bombed by the IRA and 11 are killed and 63 injured

1989 Ten Royal Marines bandsmen are killed and 22 injured when base in Deal, Kent is bombed by the IRA.

1990 A series of car bombings directed by the IRA in Northern Ireland leave 7 people dead and 37 wounded.

1991 Two IRA members are killed by their own bomb in St Albans.

1992 Eight Protestant builders killed by an IRA bomb on their way to work at an Army base near Omagh.

1993 IRA bomb in Warrington kills two children.

1993 IRA detonate a huge truck bomb in the City of London at Bishopsgate, killing two and causing approximately £350m of damage.

1993 A bomb at a fish and chip shop on the Protestant Shankill Road, Belfast kills 10 people, including two children.

1996 IRA break their cease-fire and kill two in a bomb at the Canary Wharf towers in London.

1996 Manchester bombing by IRA

1998 Omagh bombing by the so-called "Real IRA" kills 29.

This doesn't include the plots that were foiled or the bombs that didn't go off!

[Javehn]

but seeing as we're comparing Apples for Oranges

And then ...


last major riot I remember was the Poll Tax riot and your point is what, I don't remeber helicopter gunships firing on the crowds?

Apples for Oranges , Geeza style

Apples ...
http://www.caliach.com/paulr/news/polltax/images/bw0993_09.jpg

Oranges...
http://images1.fotki.com/v1/photos/6/6059/103216/1017416446-vi.jpg

Apples ...
http://www.caliach.com/paulr/news/polltax/images/bw0998_19.jpg

Oranges...
http://images1.fotki.com/v6/photos/6/6059/103216/822023-vi.jpg


Apples...
http://www.caliach.com/paulr/news/polltax/images/bw1001_08.jpg

Oranges...
http://images1.fotki.com/v7/photos/6/6059/100084/617021-vi.jpg

Apples...
http://www.caliach.com/paulr/news/polltax/images/bw1002_35.jpg
Confrontation

Oranges...
http://images2.fotki.com/v2/photos/6/6059/103216/capt.1017395339-vi.jpg

Apples...
http://www.caliach.com/paulr/news/polltax/images/bw1009_05.jpg
Serious confrontation .

Oranges ...
http://images1.fotki.com/v4/photos/6/6059/103216/5110202-vi.jpg
http://images1.fotki.com/v1/photos/6/6059/103216/813023-vi.jpg

Apples...
http://www.caliach.com/paulr/news/polltax/images/bw1004_09.jpg
The injured are lead away - rioters or innocent public?

Oranges...
Graphic : http://images1.fotki.com/v6/photos/6/6059/103216/717021-vi.jpg
Injured grade : Dead . Status : Pretty save to save innocent public .


It would be helpfull , if you would listen to your own advice from time to time ..mate . :|


Interesting list , actually . Now that I have looked at it , it clearly shows that European terrorists are far "nicer" and softer people , and there is no ground to compare . For crying out lowd , we had times where we had terror act almost every week , one time twice a week , and on the list I see that there is years there !!! Years !!

[Javehn]

Picture to the subject of "IDF Spirit" and Purity of arms .

http://images1.fotki.com/v5/photos/6/6059/100084/Maariv-vi.jpg

http://images1.fotki.com/v4/photos/6/6059/100084/419022-vi.jpg

http://www.waronline.org/IDF/photodir.php?photofile=Raids/Ramallah/055.jpg

[Geezah]

but seeing as we're comparing Apples for Oranges

And then ...


last major riot I remember was the Poll Tax riot and your point is what, I don't remeber helicopter gunships firing on the crowds?

Apples for Oranges , Geeza style

Apples ...
http://www.caliach.com/paulr/news/polltax/images/bw0993_09.jpg

Oranges...
http://images1.fotki.com/v1/photos/6/6059/103216/1017416446-vi.jpg

Apples ...
http://www.caliach.com/paulr/news/polltax/images/bw0998_19.jpg

Oranges...
http://images1.fotki.com/v6/photos/6/6059/103216/822023-vi.jpg


Apples...
http://www.caliach.com/paulr/news/polltax/images/bw1001_08.jpg

Oranges...
http://images1.fotki.com/v7/photos/6/6059/100084/617021-vi.jpg

Apples...
http://www.caliach.com/paulr/news/polltax/images/bw1002_35.jpg
Confrontation

Oranges...
http://images2.fotki.com/v2/photos/6/6059/103216/capt.1017395339-vi.jpg

Apples...
http://www.caliach.com/paulr/news/polltax/images/bw1009_05.jpg
Serious confrontation .

Oranges ...
http://images1.fotki.com/v4/photos/6/6059/103216/5110202-vi.jpg
http://images1.fotki.com/v1/photos/6/6059/103216/813023-vi.jpg

Apples...
http://www.caliach.com/paulr/news/polltax/images/bw1004_09.jpg
The injured are lead away - rioters or innocent public?

Oranges...
Graphic : http://images1.fotki.com/v6/photos/6/6059/103216/717021-vi.jpg
Injured grade : Dead . Status : Pretty save to save innocent public .


It would be helpfull , if you would listen to your own advice from time to time ..mate . :|


Interesting list , actually . Now that I have looked at it , it clearly shows that European terrorists are far "nicer" and softer people , and there is no ground to compare . For crying out lowd , we had times where we had terror act almost every week , one time twice a week , and on the list I see that there is years there !!! Years !!

You've completely lost me now are we talking about terrorist activity or riots?? or are you saying that terrorist activity in Israel is a riot? MATE!

Why don't you find images of the 1983 Harrods bomb by the IRA. Six are killed (including three police officers) and 90 wounded during Christmas shopping at the West London department store.
or 1974 Guildford pub bombing by the IRA leaves 5 dead and 44 injured.
or 1974 Birmingham pub bombing by the IRA kills 19 dead, 182 people are injured.
then we might be able to compare images MATE!
The only thing you have proved to me is that the IDF and the whole of Israel is right and EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG! Mate!

[Javehn]

You are the one that desided to engage in comparrison between the subjects . I just pointed you on the right track , that there is no reason to compare .
If you would read more carefully other's post instead of engaging in blaiming ,you could avoid many things .

[Geezah]

You are the one that desided to engage in comparrison between the subjects . I just pointed you on the right track , that there is no reason to compare .
If you would read more carefully other's post instead of engaging in blaiming ,you could avoid many things .

What are you on? this is what I said "Another thing, I don't know why you guys always want to compare Apples to Oranges" you want to make comparisons between NI and Israel!
Again Israel's right and everyone else is wrong!

[Javehn]

Allright , have it your way .I can't talk with you normally .


you want to make comparisons between NI and Israel!

If you find where I do that , you will recieve a Nobell prize . The attempt from camparison came from you . So please stop with that Israel is right and everybody is wrong , the only what acting like that here is you meanwhile .

[W(M)D]

you want to make comparisons between NI and Israel!


The Israel / NI situations are two very different sort of conflicts:

NI is about two separate streams of christians fighting each other over something that the terrorists there have forgotten the point about. They have been doing it for centuries and dont realise how very similar they really are to each other as communities in terms of culture, etc.
Also, the terrorists NI on either side do not use suicide murder tactics to kill civilians but are just 'straight' murderers.
The British Army is also there to protect both sets of UK citizens whether Catholic or Protestant (as regardless Catholics in NI are UK citizens), the same cannot be said of the IDF whose mission is only to defend the State and it's own citizens.

These are definitely two different types of conflict.

[Geezah]

For example in Northren Ireland a small number of the Protestants have formed terrorist groups in response to the IRA.

Northern Ireland is perhaps not the best example, as it is an internal british conflict. Whereas the Israeli-Palestinian one is an international conflict.

Also it's my impression that the british army have been quite evenhanded. If the british army had made Rafah style rampages, there wouldn't have been the same "need" for protestant terror groups to take revenge on the other side.

Below was your response to Mr. Nielsen, this led me to believe that *you* thought the two conflicts were the same?



Why the Northern Ireland is the example of internal conflict , and our is external ? Only you and your allikes made it that way , and only more complicated then before .


Like I said, the above leads me to believe that *you* want everyone to think that Apples and Oranges are the same?




you want to make comparisons between NI and Israel!


If you find where I do that , you will recieve a Nobell prize . The attempt from camparison came from you . So please stop with that Israel is right and everybody is wrong , the only what acting like that here is you meanwhile .

At no point did I try and make comparisons? unless you mean the images of dead people then that's about as close as they get!

[Javehn]

You should be Sherlock Holmes , if you use such deduct methods . If you don't understand what is the difference between Internal and External conflict , and the fact it has nothing to do with anything . If someone wants to compare between something , he compares "the models" of conflict . I am pretty shure i didn't said that the British model is the same of Israeli .
You are really clever . Still highschool student ?

[Geezah]

You should be Sherlock Holmes , if you use such deduct methods . If you don't understand what is the difference between Internal and External conflict , and the fact it has nothing to do with anything . If someone wants to compare between something , he compares "the models" of conflict . I am pretty shure i didn't said that the British model is the same of Israeli .
You are really clever . Still highschool student ?

Then you must be my Dr. Watson(Mate!) seeing as we're comparing things maybe we could compare the bullets that they're using? as far as highschool, wouldn't know I went to secondary school! Mate!

[IDFM203]

Ok I have been a way from this site for a while and I say that for I will admit that I did not read this whole thread for I merely skimmed over it so I apologize if I repeat something or I go off topic.

A few comments.

While I certainly am no “kahhanist” nor did I ever belong to that organization, I have no problem saying that a lot of what he said was correct!!

Now I am not talking about his “solutions” but rather more on his criticisms and his outlook on some of our actions and how he viewed the threats facing us and I feel he was indeed correct on those.

I am sure this isn’t a popular opinion, but hell I never came here to be popular ;)

As for the whole Britain/IRA and Israel/pali comparison, again I didn’t read the whole back and forth, but like I said before, I believe it’s a absurd comparison, for IMO the IRA didn’t come close to the general intensity and amount of attacks that we face from numerous organizations that wish to see us destroyed.

Secondly I believe the IRA’s goals and ideology were much tamer (just wanted the Brits out of their area in Ireland and not the destruction of Britain and also they didn’t have a suicidal ideology that the suicide bombings and those that send them that we face) then the terrorists organizations that we face that don’t merely want us out, but want to destroy us all in all of Israel and they employ a suicidal ideology and actions that are constantly trying to achieve that, regardless of what we did or don’t do (even when we pull out of every pali city and town like we did in the 90’s in the Oslo illusionist agreements, yet still they attacked us with homcide/sucide bombings etc…)

Lastly to Geezah, my last post to you went unanswered, now trust me I can understand you failing to answer it ;) nor do I demand that you answer the whole post, but since I am responding in this thread that you are so actively engaged in, I figured I should repeat one line from that old post and perhaps the second time around you might answer it.

I see you were before so outraged when we destroy terrorists homes or even a zoo (yet again your vocal “outrage” is silent when our lives are destroyed :roll: ….but that’s another matter) so I ask where do you think Israel got the idea of destroying the homes of what it perceives to be as terrorists homes (0r ones that are used for cover for their snipers or used to smuggle arms from)???

I am really curious to know if you know…for I tell you now we did not invent that practice!!

Shalom :D

[Geezah]

As for the whole Britain/IRA and Israel/pali comparison, again I didn’t read the whole back and forth, but like I said before, I believe it’s a absurd comparison, for IMO the IRA didn’t come close to the general intensity and amount of attacks that we face from numerous organizations that wish to see us destroyed.

I'm glad you agree!




Secondly I believe the IRA’s goals and ideology were much tamer (just wanted the Brits out of their area in Ireland and not the destruction of Britain and also they didn’t have a suicidal ideology that the suicide bombings and those that send them that we face) then the terrorists organizations that we face that don’t merely want us out, but want to destroy us all in all of Israel and they employ a suicidal ideology and actions that are constantly trying to achieve that, regardless of what we did or don’t do (even when we pull out of every pali city and town like we did in the 90’s in the Oslo illusionist agreements, yet still they attacked us with homcide/sucide bombings etc…)

The IRA didn't/doesn't care who they attacked/killed or tried to attack/kill, be it Royalty, Military or Civilian.



Lastly to Geezah, my last post to you went unanswered, now trust me I can understand you failing to answer it ;) nor do I demand that you answer the whole post, but since I am responding in this thread that you are so actively engaged in, I figured I should repeat one line from that old post and perhaps the second time around you might answer it.

Wow......now I feel all warm and fuzzy :P



I see you were before so outraged when we destroy terrorists homes or even a zoo (yet again your vocal “outrage” is silent when our lives are destroyed :roll: ….but that’s another matter) so I ask where do you think Israel got the idea of destroying the homes of what it perceives to be as terrorists homes (0r ones that are used for cover for their snipers or used to smuggle arms from)???

Please show me where I was "so outraged" that the IDF were destroying terrorist homes or terrorist zoos ;) ?

As far as the idea about destroying homes, maybe the fact that I lost interest in the thread and stopped replying might have given you some idea that I'm not really interested? I can tell you now I'm not sure if I know, but do I want to know......not really, sorry....I'm not real big into chasing carrots :D



I am really curious to know if you know…for I tell you now we did not invent that practice!!

Well bully for you ;)



Shalom :D

Yeah yeah Shazam!

[Sayeret]

While I certainly am no “kahhanist” nor did I ever belong to that organization, I have no problem saying that a lot of what he said was correct!!

Now I am not talking about his “solutions” but rather more on his criticisms and his outlook on some of our actions and how he viewed the threats facing us and I feel he was indeed correct on those.

I am sure this isn’t a popular opinion, but hell I never came here to be popular ;)


Some of the things the kahanists say, like what you said about their criticisms I sometimes agree with. A lot of their solutions like you said, are imo pretty crazy but a lot their criticisms make sense.

[IDFM203]

”
"As for the whole Britain/IRA and Israel/pali comparison, again I didn’t read the whole back and forth, but like I said before, I believe it’s a absurd comparison, for IMO the IRA didn’t come close to the general intensity and amount of attacks that we face from numerous organizations that wish to see us destroyed.”

I'm glad you agree! Yes we do agree that the IRA’s actions and threats to Britain were much less in size and scope and intensity then what Israel faces on a daily bases and as such of course the actions of the Brits when faced with the less threat to its vital national security, would act differently.

Ok glad we agree?



The IRA didn't/doesn't care who they attacked/killed or tried to attack/kill, be it Royalty, Military or Civilian. perhaps, but again the intensity and the goals of the IRA were much less then the total destruction goals and suicidal ideology that we face, and as such again the threats facing us were much harsher and much more intense and also might I add never ending with no chance of any peaceful solution (ok I will amend it to say with much less of a chance, regardless of what Israel does or doesn’t do), simply because they fight for the whole Israel, a total destruction goal that the IRA did not have with regards to Britain.



Please show me where I was "so outraged" that the IDF were destroying terrorist homes or terrorist zoos ;) ? Well your tons of postings on the homes in gaza and that zoo that was in a war zone (a warzone where there were constant smuggling of weapons that these terrorist organization were firing on Israeli towns and cities) IMO constituted a verbal impression of outrage by you!! (and again I haven’t seen much of your postings in threads dealing with when our civilians are killed, but again I don’t expect you to apply universal standards in your outrage of destroyed infrastructure and your silence when it comes to our citizens being slaughtered :roll: )



As far as the idea about destroying homes, maybe the fact that I lost interest in the thread and stopped replying might have given you some idea that I'm not really interested? haha rofl of course you would say this and yes perhaps you would want to convey that, though the fact that you are responding here and also the fact that in that thread you had almost 22 long postings and all of a sudden after my post, you go silent, well lets just say I and I believe others view your non response there as something other then mere non interest ;)


I can tell you now I'm not sure if I know, but do I want to know Here let me give you a hint, I asked where do you think Israel got the idea of destroying what it perceives as terrorists homes, now your British, right? Well in that case you should figure it out ;)

(Yeah I know I can just say it more clear, but I am having too much fun here ;) and anyways I believe by now anyone with any ounce of intelligence would be able to figure out clearly already which nation Israel got that idea from)

You see I believe I already in the past pointed out some of your hypocrisy, well let me add to that ;)



I am really curious to know if you know…for I tell you now we did not invent that practice!!

Well bully for you ;) Trust me, after seeing you as a Brit moan and whine about us destroying terrorist homes, my question to YOU is very appropriate.


Shalom :D

[Geezah]

”
"As for the whole Britain/IRA and Israel/pali comparison, again I didn’t read the whole back and forth, but like I said before, I believe it’s a absurd comparison, for IMO the IRA didn’t come close to the general intensity and amount of attacks that we face from numerous organizations that wish to see us destroyed.”

I'm glad you agree!



Yes we do agree that the IRA’s actions and threats to Britain were much less in size and scope and intensity then what Israel faces on a daily bases and as such of course the actions of the Brits when faced with the less threat to its vital national security, would act differently.

Ok glad we agree?


Hang on a minute,I'm not in agreement over you trying to make out that Israeli life is that much more precious than British, seeing as you want to trivialize anything that doesn't affect Israelis!



”
The IRA didn't/doesn't care who they attacked/killed or tried to attack/kill, be it Royalty, Military or Civilian. perhaps, but again the intensity and the goals of the IRA were much less then the total destruction goals and suicidal ideology that we face, and as such again the threats facing us were much harsher and much more intense and also might I add never ending with no chance of any peaceful solution (ok I will amend it to say with much less of a chance, regardless of what Israel does or doesn’t do), simply because they fight for the whole Israel, a total destruction goal that the IRA did not have with regards to Britain.

Sorry the lose of innocent life is a terrible thing period



”
Please show me where I was "so outraged" that the IDF were destroying terrorist homes or terrorist zoos ;) ? Well your tons of postings on the homes in gaza and that zoo that was in a war zone (a warzone where there were constant smuggling of weapons that these terrorist organization were firing on Israeli towns and cities) IMO constituted a verbal impression of outrage by you!! (and again I haven’t seen much of your postings in threads dealing with when our civilians are killed, but again I don’t expect you to apply universal standards in your outrage of destroyed infrastructure and your silence when it comes to our citizens being slaughtered :roll: )

Oh....that's right anything that the IDF destroys is down to it being in the IDF's playground.....sorry I meant warzone, are you guys taught at school how to have an answer for everything? Please point me to the *latest* postings in which it highlights the killing of innocent life be it Israeli,Palestinian or innocent camera men ;)





As far as the idea about destroying homes, maybe the fact that I lost interest in the thread and stopped replying might have given you some idea that I'm not really interested? haha rofl of course you would say this and yes perhaps you would want to convey that, though the fact that you are responding here and also the fact that in that thread you had almost 22 long postings and all of a sudden after my post, you go silent, well lets just say I and I believe others view your non response there as something other then mere non interest ;)

Ok......if it makes you feel better please enlighten me, so I take it it was the British, so when did we do this and is possible to supply examples?



”
I can tell you now I'm not sure if I know, but do I want to know Here let me give you a hint, I asked where do you think Israel got the idea of destroying what it perceives as terrorists homes, now your British, right? Well in that case you should figure it out ;)

Is this where we play out Punch and Judy? Oh no I shouldn't, oh yes you should ;)



(Yeah I know I can just say it more clear, but I am having too much fun here ;) and anyways I believe by now anyone with any ounce of intelligence would be able to figure out clearly already which nation Israel got that idea from)

You see I believe I already in the past pointed out some of your hypocrisy, well let me add to that ;)

I'm a hypocrite because............what do I need to start a new thread on the innocent Israelis that have died???? :|



I am really curious to know if you know…for I tell you now we did not invent that practice!!

You keep on telling me that you didn't invent it..........drum roll please.......please Paul Daniels (http://www.pauldaniels.co.uk/html/index.htm) stop it I can't take the suspense any longer :cantbeli:




Well bully for you ;) Trust me, after seeing you as a Brit moan and whine about us destroying terrorist homes, my question to YOU is very appropriate.


Shalom :D

All you keep on telling me is that every home that the IDF destroys is justified because it's in a warzone?

Shazam :D

[IDFM203]

Hang on a minute,I'm not agreement over you trying to make out that Israeli life is that much more precious than British, seeing as you want to trivialize anything that doesn't affect Israelis! wow and again you resort to the use of straw man arguments :roll: , hmm typical by you in that you love to always grasp for straws ….Listen, I never said or implied what you just said and I categorically state that I never assigned one life to be more precious then the other…don’t put words in my mouth!


All I said was that the harm and intensity done to you by the IRA does not come close to the size and scope and the goals of total destruction that we face.

Of course loss of life in your nation is sad and innocents killed there is wrong and I deplore it, but in this whole comparison game between the IRA and British actions to Israel and what it faces, all I am saying is that there is no comparison due to the fact that I expect the Brits actions to be different then ours for they don’t face the same level of threats and intensity and the amount of actions against us that we face/faced.

Our enemies act all the time to annihilate us and destroy us, that is their total goal and they also have a suicidal ideology, which is a BIG difference, the IRA I don’t think had that total goal nor any suicidal ideology with regards to your nation.

Though IMO if the Brits faced exactly what we faced, they would act as such or in fact IMO much harsher then how we have acted!

”perhaps, but again the intensity and the goals of the IRA were much less then the total destruction goals and suicidal ideology that we face, and as such again the threats facing us were much harsher and much more intense and also might I add never ending with no chance of any peaceful solution (ok I will amend it to say with much less of a chance, regardless of what Israel does or doesn’t do), simply because they fight for the whole Israel, a total destruction goal that the IRA did not have with regards to Britain.”


Sorry the lose of innocent life is a terrible thing period yes and I never disputed that whatsoever, though again that’s a straw man sidetrack argument tactic by you, for all I am responding to in this thread is to the comparison between what we faced and what you face and how because of the difference in what we both face, of course we both react differently and I am sorry to say, but what we face on a daily basis is a lot worse to our vital national security and to our existence then what you ever faced by the IRA and as such of course your actions wont be the same as ours.

oh and let me be clear, I fully recognize the harm that the IRA did to you but that does no mean that what you face and what we face are the same, for the fact is they are/were not!!


“Well your tons of postings on the homes in gaza and that zoo that was in a war zone (a warzone where there were constant smuggling of weapons that these terrorist organization were firing on Israeli towns and cities) IMO constituted a verbal impression of outrage by you!! (and again I haven’t seen much of your postings in threads dealing with when our civilians are killed, but again I don’t expect you to apply universal standards in your outrage of destroyed infrastructure and your silence when it comes to our citizens being slaughtered :roll: )”

Oh....that's right anything that the IDF destroy is down to it being in the IDF's playground.....sorry I meant warzone, :cantbeli: Yes again we established before that you never served your nation and were never a soldier and as such you, as a mere armchair civilian, have no concept of what a war zone entails and how if there are arms smuggling tunnels in one area and when the IDF finally goes in to stop that arms smuggling, the whole area around it has gunman firing from all sorts of places and not just on top of that tunnel, not to mention the whole area around it is laden with ****y traps, but your insistence on negating those realties only further shows your ignorance on what we really face.

Secondly we lost 13 soldiers there and NO IDF soldier will ever refer to that area as our playground…the nerve that you have :roll: though I guess in reality you dont upset me at all for I really don’t expect anything less from one that never served such as yourself :roll:


Please point me to the *latest* postings in which it highlights the killing of innocent life be it Israeli,Palestinian or innocent camera men ;) ahh? :roll: you still don’t get it :roll: …..my point is that you are silent when our citizens are killed, yet I see you bombard this forum with incessant postings when we destroy infrastructure in a war zone.


Ok......if it makes you feel better please enlighten me, so I take it it was the British, so when didi we do this and is possible to supply examples? *game show announcers voice*”give this man a cookie for your bright answer here" :P ….congratulations on finely getting something right ;)

Yes it was the Brits in the 1930’s in Israel or rather specifically from 1936-1939 where your nation demolished and destroyed thousands of homes.


And no its not about making me feel better, hell I enjoy coming to this forum and conversing and debating regardless of who I debate and you don’t elicit from me any special feeling or whatnot, though I will say that perhaps I do get a bit of satisfaction in further exposing your hypocrisy and the fact that you are so outraged when we destroy homes, a practice that we actually got from the Brits.



All you keep on telling me is that every home that the IDF destroys is justified because it's in a warzone? No I keep on telling you the realties of a war zone and how in war its sad what happens but yes I justify Israel’s actions simply based on the realties it faces there.

Now I wasn’t there (in Gaza at the time) nor can I say that I know of each house, but I know in general the IDF does not randomly destroy homes, for it usually makes an effort to specifically target and destroy only the homes it deems as a security threat (homes that have been constantly used for cover for snipers against us, homes of homicide bombers as a deterrent to other would be homicide bombers, homes that house arms smuggling tunnels). I mean out of the hundreds of thousands or even millions of homes in the west bank and Gaza, the percent of destroyed homes is less then .oooo1 percent, hardly a sigh of wanton and senseless destruction by us.

Secondly I also keep on telling you how you don’t apply universal standards in how you bombard this forum when we do something, but are almost silent about what is being done to us, not to mention how I find you in general to be very hypocritical in how you condemn us for some of the very same actions that your own nations (the U.S. and Britain) has committed.


Shalom :D

[Geezah]

Hang on a minute,I'm not agreement over you trying to make out that Israeli life is that much more precious than British, seeing as you want to trivialize anything that doesn't affect Israelis! wow and again you resort to the use of straw man arguments :roll: , hmm typical by you in that you love to always grasp for straws ….Listen, I never said or implied what you just said and I categorically state that I never assigned one life to be more precious then the other…don’t put words in my mouth!

Hey....I can't help it if that's the impression I get, if you want to paint it as a straw man arguement then go ahead and paint, but like I said I get the impression that everythings worse in Israel and the rest of the World is rosy?



All I said was that the harm and intensity done to you by the IRA does not come close to the size and scope and the goals of total destruction that we face.

Of course loss of life in your nation is sad and innocents killed there is wrong and I deplore it, but in this whole comparison game between the IRA and British actions to Israel and what it faces, all I am saying is that there is no comparison due to the fact that I expect the Brits actions to be different then ours for they don’t face the same level of threats and intensity and the amount of actions against us that we face/faced.

Our enemies act all the time to annihilate us and destroy us, that is their total goal and they also have a suicidal ideology, which is a BIG difference, the IRA I don’t think had that total goal nor any suicidal ideology with regards to your nation.

In a way having a suicidal mentality doesn't cut it as being that much worse than the terrorist coming back to wreak havoc another day!



Though IMO if the Brits faced exactly what we faced, they would act as such or in fact IMO much harsher then how we have acted!

IFs a big word, I don't think we will ever know about that?


perhaps, but again the intensity and the goals of the IRA were much less then the total destruction goals and suicidal ideology that we face, and as such again the threats facing us were much harsher and much more intense and also might I add never ending with no chance of any peaceful solution (ok I will amend it to say with much less of a chance, regardless of what Israel does or doesn’t do), simply because they fight for the whole Israel, a total destruction goal that the IRA did not have with regards to Britain.

Why do you keep on saying that the IRA didn't want to wreak total destruction in the UK, I think given half the chance they would have done it quite happily but I put the lost opportunities down to the good work by those that work in the shadows!




Sorry the lose of innocent life is a terrible thing period yes and I never disputed that whatsoever, though again that’s a straw man sidetrack argument tactic by you, for all I am responding to in this thread is to the comparison between what we faced and what you face and how because of the difference in what we both face, of course we both react differently and I am sorry to say, but what we face on a daily basis is a lot worse to our vital national security and to our existence then what you ever faced by the IRA and as such of course your actions wont be the same as ours.

We could compare it to the killings fields of Cambodia or Rwanda?



oh and let me be clear, I fully recognize the harm that the IRA did to you but that does no mean that what you face and what we face are the same, for the fact is they are/were not!!

Are we both talking about DEATH here?


“Well your tons of postings on the homes in gaza and that zoo that was in a war zone (a warzone where there were constant smuggling of weapons that these terrorist organization were firing on Israeli towns and cities) IMO constituted a verbal impression of outrage by you!! (and again I haven’t seen much of your postings in threads dealing with when our civilians are killed, but again I don’t expect you to apply universal standards in your outrage of destroyed infrastructure and your silence when it comes to our citizens being slaughtered :roll: )”

I love the way you keep on talking about my silence when people have posted on the loss of innocent Israeli life( and I'm not treying to make reference to my other post, I thought this one had died a death and I could move on)pleasepoint me in the direction of other posts that have highlighted the loss of Innocent Israeli life?




Oh....that's right anything that the IDF destroy is down to it being in the IDF's playground.....sorry I meant warzone, :cantbeli: Yes again we established before that you never served your nation and were never a soldier and as such you, as a mere armchair civilian, have no concept of what a war zone entails and how if there are arms smuggling tunnels in one area and when the IDF finally goes in to stop that arms smuggling, the whole area around it has gunman firing from all sorts of places and not just on top of that tunnel, not to mention the whole area around it is laden with ****y traps, but your insistence on negating those realties only further shows your ignorance on what we really face.

I have nothing to add to this as your whole arguement comes from the fact I've never served my Country!:cantbeli:



Secondly we lost 13 soldiers there and NO IDF soldier will ever refer to that area as our playground…the nerve that you have :roll: though I guess in reality you dont upset me at all for I really don’t expect anything less from one that never served such as yourself :roll:

How many non-terrorists lost they're lives that day? surely not everyone in that area is a terrorist, or am I being ignorant again due to my lack of experience in serving my Country?




Please point me to the *latest* postings in which it highlights the killing of innocent life be it Israeli,Palestinian or innocent camera men ;) ahh? :roll: you still don’t get it :roll: …..my point is that you are silent when our citizens are killed, yet I see you bombard this forum with incessant postings when we destroy infrastructure in a war zone.


You keep on stressing that you've made a point??????point me to a recent posting which highlights Israeli deaths and not the Bulldozer post?




Ok......if it makes you feel better please enlighten me, so I take it it was the British, so when didi we do this and is possible to supply examples? *game show announcers voice*”give this man a cookie for your bright answer here" :P ….congratulations on finely getting something right ;)

Yes it was the Brits in the 1930’s in Israel or rather specifically from 1936-1939 where your nation demolished and destroyed thousands of homes.

Like I said before, could please supply examples so that I may better educate myself on the subject?



And no its not about making me feel better, hell I enjoy coming to this forum and conversing and debating regardless of who I debate and you don’t elicit from me any special feeling or whatnot, though I will say that perhaps I do get a bit of satisfaction in further exposing your hypocrisy and the fact that you are so outraged when we destroy homes, a practice that we actually got from the Brits.

Exposing my hypocrisy? How?




All you keep on telling me is that every home that the IDF destroys is justified because it's in a warzone? No I keep on telling you the realties of a war zone and how in war its sad what happens but yes I justify Israel’s actions simply based on the realties it faces there.

Now I wasn’t there (in Gaza at the time) nor can I say that I know of each house, but I know in general the IDF does not randomly destroy homes, for it usually makes an effort to specifically target and destroy only the homes it deems as a security threat (homes that have been constantly used for cover for snipers against us, homes of homicide bombers as a deterrent to other would be homicide bombers, homes that house arms smuggling tunnels). I mean out of the hundreds of thousands or even millions of homes in the west bank and Gaza, the percent of destroyed homes is less then .oooo1 percent, hardly a sigh of wanton and senseless destruction by us.

What about the homes that are destroyed and the land that is taken to put up that barrier and what about the illegal Israeli settlements?



Secondly I also keep on telling you how you don’t apply universal standards in how you bombard this forum when we do something, but are almost silent about what is being done to us, not to mention how I find you in general to be very hypocritical in how you condemn us for some of the very same actions that your own nations (the U.S. and Britain) has committed.

Are we talking in the past here? I could do that then and condem the Israeli's for Christ being crucified :cantbeli:



Shalom :D

Shazam :D

P.S. Maybe one day we may meet and even though we have different Political and Military views we might get on and hopefully you won't threaten to shoot me in the foot like my In-Law because our Political views differ ;)

[RavenW]

Are we talking in the past here? I could do that then and condem the Israeli's for Christ being crucified


whatta F....? :cantbeli:

oookaaayyyyy .. lets back up slowly and try not to make an eye contact...

the guy is obviously in stress.

You know, half of my family are Christians, there is a New Testament always next to my bed or on my table... so I think I can speak from Christian position.

dude, wtf wrong with you? Do you think Israel is responsible for Christ's death? :bash:

That's like saying that America is responsible for Martin Luther King Jr.'s death.

Wake up and smell Java, Jesus was a Jew from Israel, Martin Luther King Jr. was a great American!

Sayonara, dude! :D

[IDFM203]

Hey....I can't help it if that's the impression I get, if you want to paint it as a straw man arguement then go ahead and paint, but like I said I get the impression that everythings worse in Israel and the rest of the World is rosy? of course it’s a straw man argument for I never said nor implied that, but I guess I cant stop you from having your wishful impression of what you think I am claiming, for I guess the fact that I don’t think the way you think I do doesn’t exactly fit into your distorted worldview of what really is our view on things.

As for ‘I get the impression that everythings worse in Israel and the rest of the World is rosy?’ :cantbeli: wow that’s absurd and any sane individual that is looking at our debates cant possible see how I claimed or insinuated what you just said.

No, things aren’t rosy in other places and the things the IRA did in your nation (and things that go on in other nations) is also bad and indeed a lot of other nations have been victims of terrorism as well, I fully recognize that, however I say again, when comparing the intensity and the level of attacks and stated goals of the IRA to the terrorists groups and actions that Israel faces, well I don’t think you can compare and overall Israel faces a lot worse and the ideology it faces is a lot less compromising to any peace no matter what Israel does or doesn’t do, unlike the groups (the IRA) that you face.


In a way having a suicidal mentality doesn't cut it as being that much worse than the terrorist coming back to wreak havoc another day! ahh but the difference lies in the measures taken to prevent such actions and when a nation (yours) is faced with an enemy that does NOT have people with a suicidal ideology nor doesn’t have suicide bombers, it allows its preventive actions and measures to be much different (and I say lighter and tamer) then a nation that faces terrorists with that suicidal ideology and that is one of the reasons I mentioned it for I contend that our actions are different then yours for what we face is a lot different then yours.


“Though IMO if the Brits faced exactly what we faced, they would act as such or in fact IMO much harsher then how we have acted!”

IFs a big word, I don't think we will ever know about that? True we can never know, but I see them doing a lot of the same actions in the past or even present with much less vital nations security at their stake then what we face so I can only conclude if they faced exactly what we faced, well I do think they would act as such or even harsher.


Why do you keep on saying that the IRA didn't want to wreak total destruction in the UK, I think given half the chance they would have done it quite happily but I put the lost opportunities down to the good work by those that work in the shadows! Yes I do content that I don’t think their goal was the total destruction of Britain and they certainly didn’t have any religious or any fundamentalists ideology for that, like what we face and that IMO is one of the Major differences in what we faced and what you faced.

The IRA simply wanted the Brits out of their part of Ireland that is it and not the complete destruction of Britain.

Listen we also stop a lot, as you guys did, but the stated goals and ideology were much different between what we face and what you face and I believe as such the intensity of what we face and the size and scope of it is/was much greater and thats a greater facter to how what you face was much less then what we face then anything that your responsive actuons did to make it less.



We could compare it to the killings fields of Cambodia or Rwanda? Compare what? The IRA and your actions, or ours?….anyway I don’t think both us or you can compare to the two examples you just stated in terms of the amount of deaths they have seen.

Anyways what does this have to do with anything? you’re a Brit and in this discussion in this thread you were involved in a comparison to your nations actions and its enemies to ours and I only jumped in on that comparison alone, that is what our discussion is and not on other conflicts.


Are we both talking about DEATH here? Yes and again your citizens and our citizens dieing at the hands of terrorists is sad and I am saddened for both, though the amount of attacks and the amount of losed lives to the larger amount of attacks and the higher amount of our lives lost, due to the conflicts not being the same is all I am saying here and again, I don’t think you can compare what you faced to what we face.

Yes in simple terms we all share that our citizens have been killed, but just like you cant compare the conflict of WW2 to say the conflict in Iraq, even though in both conflicts, yes people died, but that doesn’t mean they are comparable, even though in both DEATH is a common denominator, and so too what you face and what we face are not comparable at all.


I love the way you keep on talking about my silence when people have posted on the loss of innocent Israeli life( and I'm not treying to make reference to my other post, I thought this one had died a death and I could move on)pleasepoint me in the direction of other posts that have highlighted the loss of Innocent Israeli life? I say again, since I have been on this forum, I don’t believe I have seen you make any comments in threads dealing with our victims or those that commit those actions against us, now to ask me to dig up all the threads dealing with that and simply saying, "where are you there?" Is absurd for its too time consuming as such I ask you to point out just a few of your posts in those types of threads, a task that’s much less time consuming then what you have asked of me.

So can you show me a post of yours where you commented on the loss of our lives or anything that comments on what we face, for till now, with regards to the Israeli/Arab conflict, I think all I saw of you were constant harping on a zoo and terrorists houses that we have destroyed.



“:cantbeli: Yes again we established before that you never served your nation and were never a soldier and as such you, as a mere armchair civilian, have no concept of what a war zone entails and how if there are arms smuggling tunnels in one area and when the IDF finally goes in to stop that arms smuggling, the whole area around it has gunman firing from all sorts of places and not just on top of that tunnel, not to mention the whole area around it is laden with ****y traps, but your insistence on negating those realties only further shows your ignorance on what we really face.”

I have nothing to add to this as your whole arguement comes from the fact I've never served my Country!:cantbeli: haha rofl and that’s your whole counter response :roll: ….preatty weak, though typical by you already :cantbeli:

Go read it again for besides pointing our how you never served, a obvious thing simply based on your ignorance of what is a war zone, a subject that you somehow decided you’d engage in but when I point out your ignorance or that you never served, which is a factor to point out when you make the comments that you have made, you seem bewildered why I even mention you never served :roll:


“Secondly we lost 13 soldiers there and NO IDF soldier will ever refer to that area as our playground…the nerve that you have :roll: though I guess in reality you dont upset me at all for I really don’t expect anything less from one that never served such as yourself :roll: “


How many non-terrorists lost they're lives that day? surely not everyone in that area is a terrorist, or am I being ignorant again due to my lack of experience in serving my Country? and as I have said before, I too am sorry for the innocents that were killed, but I know we don’t purposely target them and its sad, but in war zones, where there are gunman all around shooting from within civilians and using them as cover (or I can show you pics where thier civilians have purposely thrown themselves to be used as cover after their gunman shoot at us) well as the Brits and Americans and others have learned in Iraq, Afghanistan and even NATO in Bosnia (and in other conflicts) the loss of civilians is unavoidable at times, but I repeat we don’t purposely target them.

But regardless your playground comment was despicable though again I cant expect you to understand that being that you have no concept of what its like to be a soldier being that you never served, for if you would you wouldnt make the comment you made.



Like I said before, could please supply examples so that I may better educate myself on the subject? . I did, I said from 1936 to 1939, you destroyed over 5000 homes.

You’re a Brit, I am sure in all those Brit sites that you posted before, they mentioned it ;) :roll:



Exposing my hypocrisy? How? Well you harping about homes being destroyed, when your own nation did it (or even the U.S did it in this currant Iraq conflict), and all sorts of actions that you point the finger on us when I can site examples of your (the U.S. and others) that have done the same and IMO even done the same with much less of a security threat to their vital national security that we face on a daily basis.

That hypocrisy!!



What about the homes that are destroyed and the land that is taken to put up that barrier That’s our land to build a security fence and we have every right to use it

Hell I believe the U.S. even has some sort of law (I forgot the name of it though if anyone knows it if they can post it id appreciate it) where they can take land for the use of the state like building highways or stuff like that.

Also note that homes that are destroyed, the occupants are fully compensated, and yes I recognize its sad that we have to do that, but if a choice between us losing more LIVES or the other bad choice of compensating a pali family for losing their home, I choose LIFE over mere bricks and stones.

Btw just curious, can you give me a reputable figure (and list the site) of how many homes we have destroyed for the anti terror fence? For I don’t believe we have destroyed many.

Lastly I repeat “I mean out of the hundreds of thousands or even millions of homes in the west bank and Gaza, the percent of destroyed homes is less then .oooo1 percent, hardly a sigh of wanton and senseless destruction by us”


Secondly I also keep on telling you how you don’t apply universal standards in how you bombard this forum when we do something, but are almost silent about what is being done to us, not to mention how I find you in general to be very hypocritical in how you condemn us for some of the very same actions that your own nations (the U.S. and Britain) has committed.


Are we talking in the past here? I could do that then and condem the Israeli's for Christ being crucified :cantbeli: past?, no we are talking present (Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia) or even in the past few decades.

That’s all relevant when you point accusatory fingers but yet your own nation, where IMO you have faced much less of a threat to your national security yet in some conflicts you have done some of the same actions that you are so appalled we have done.

That is hypocrisy!!

As for Chirst, well we didn’t kill him so your attempt at another straw man argument falls flat here :roll:


Though I see that now that you love going off in other directions with straw man arguments, well here too I guess I should now expect a whole who killed Jesus debate simply because you love to throw in absurd and off topic issues in an attempt to put up smokescreens to hide your clear hypocrisy and double standards in the way you view us and how your view your own actions :cantbeli: :roll:



P.S. Maybe one day we may meet and even though we have different Political and Military views we might get on and hopefully you won't threaten to shoot me in the foot like my In-Law because our Political views differ ;) Funny that you think I might shoot you, for I actually thought that if I ever met you in the states with your gun collection and lets say the redneck stereotype that you might exude ;) , well it was I that thought I might get shot from you.

Anyways yeah we might meet and hell international politics or not, I am always up for a nice "shoot" at the local gun range ;)


Oh and you say we have different military views, well its been my experience that those who have served usually do have a different view on military details and realities then those who haven’t p-)

Shalom :D

[Geezah]

Hey....I can't help it if that's the impression I get, if you want to paint it as a straw man arguement then go ahead and paint, but like I said I get the impression that everythings worse in Israel and the rest of the World is rosy? of course it’s a straw man argument for I never said nor implied that, but I guess I cant stop you from having your wishful impression of what you think I am claiming, for I guess the fact that I don’t think the way you think I do doesn’t exactly fit into your distorted worldview of what really is our view on things.

As for ‘I get the impression that everythings worse in Israel and the rest of the World is rosy?’ :cantbeli: wow that’s absurd and any sane individual that is looking at our debates cant possible see how I claimed or insinuated what you just said.

I just get the impression that you want to downplay anything that's taken place elsewhere in the World, IMHO and I'm entitled to it!



No, things aren’t rosy in other places and the things the IRA did in your nation (and things that go on in other nations) is also bad and indeed a lot of other nations have been victims of terrorism as well, I fully recognize that, however I say again, when comparing the intensity and the level of attacks and stated goals of the IRA to the terrorists groups and actions that Israel faces, well I don’t think you can compare and overall Israel faces a lot worse and the ideology it faces is a lot less compromising to any peace no matter what Israel does or doesn’t do, unlike the groups (the IRA) that you face.

I don't remember comparing the two?, I just talked about how I got the impression you trying to downplay what the IRA did!





In a way having a suicidal mentality doesn't cut it as being that much worse than the terrorist coming back to wreak havoc another day! ahh but the difference lies in the measures taken to prevent such actions and when a nation (yours) is faced with an enemy that does NOT have people with a suicidal ideology nor doesn’t have suicide bombers, it allows its preventive actions and measures to be much different (and I say lighter and tamer) then a nation that faces terrorists with that suicidal ideology and that is one of the reasons I mentioned it for I contend that our actions are different then yours for what we face is a lot different then yours.

Please explain, do you mean tamer in the sense of building a barrier or in the sense of killing the terrorist?




“Though IMO if the Brits faced exactly what we faced, they would act as such or in fact IMO much harsher then how we have acted!”

IFs a big word, I don't think we will ever know about that? True we can never know, but I see them doing a lot of the same actions in the past or even present with much less vital nations security at their stake then what we face so I can only conclude if they faced exactly what we faced, well I do think they would act as such or even harsher.


Again IFs a big word!




Why do you keep on saying that the IRA didn't want to wreak total destruction in the UK, I think given half the chance they would have done it quite happily but I put the lost opportunities down to the good work by those that work in the shadows! Yes I do content that I don’t think their goal was the total destruction of Britain and they certainly didn’t have any religious or any fundamentalists ideology for that, like what we face and that IMO is one of the Major differences in what we faced and what you faced.

The IRA simply wanted the Brits out of their part of Ireland that is it and not the complete destruction of Britain.

Please don't forget you had the Catholics fighting Protestants so religion was involved but you are right in the sense that it wasn't the IRAs goal to kill themselves because they wanted to come back for a another day!
I do know that a few of the IRA members that have been on prison over the years went on hunger strike and died for their beliefs!


1974 Guildford pub bombing by the IRA leaves 5 dead and 44 injured.

1974 Birmingham pub bombing by the IRA kills 19 dead, 182 people are injured.

1979 Lord Mountbatten and three others are killed by IRA

1982 Two bombs in Hyde Park and Regent's Park, London by the IRA killl 8 members of the Household Cavalry and the Royal Green Jackets seven horses are also killed.

1983 Harrods bomb by the IRA. Six are killed (including three police officers) and 90 wounded during Christmas shopping at the West London department store.

1984 IRA bomb in the Grand Hotel Brighton 5 are killed in an attempt to kill members of the British cabinet.

1985 IRA mortar attack kills nine soldiers in Newry

1987 Enniskillen massacre. Remembrance Day parade in Enniskillen, County Fermanagh is bombed by the IRA and 11 are killed and 63 injured

1989 Ten Royal Marines bandsmen are killed and 22 injured when base in Deal, Kent is bombed by the IRA.

1990 A series of car bombings directed by the IRA in Northern Ireland leave 7 people dead and 37 wounded.

1991 Two IRA members are killed by their own bomb in St Albans.

1992 Eight Protestant builders killed by an IRA bomb on their way to work at an Army base near Omagh.

1993 IRA bomb in Warrington kills two children.

1993 IRA detonate a huge truck bomb in the City of London at Bishopsgate, killing two and causing approximately £350m of damage.

1993 A bomb at a fish and chip shop on the Protestant Shankill Road, Belfast kills 10 people, including two children.

1996 IRA break their cease-fire and kill two in a bomb at the Canary Wharf towers in London.

1996 Manchester bombing by IRA

1998 Omagh bombing by the so-called "Real IRA" kills 29.


We have experienced terrorism on two fronts, I have direct experience form one foiled attempt by the IRA, they tried to blow up Hammersmith bridge the night I went to see friends in Barnes and this was shortly after they had spent money on renovating it!




Listen we also stop a lot, as you guys did, but the stated goals and ideology were much different between what we face and what you face and I believe as such the intensity of what we face and the size and scope of it is/was much greater and thats a greater facter to how what you face was much less then what we face then anything that your responsive actuons did to make it less.

Yes, the IRAs goal was to get the British and Protestants out of NI?




We could compare it to the killings fields of Cambodia or Rwanda? Compare what? The IRA and your actions, or ours?….anyway I don’t think both us or you can compare to the two examples you just stated in terms of the amount of deaths they have seen.

Anyways what does this have to do with anything? you’re a Brit and in this discussion in this thread you were involved in a comparison to your nations actions and its enemies to ours and I only jumped in on that comparison alone, that is what our discussion is and not on other conflicts.


Maybe I'm crazy but I don't remember where I tried to compare the two conflicts? someone else brought up the IRA and NI!




Are we both talking about DEATH here? Yes and again your citizens and our citizens dieing at the hands of terrorists is sad and I am saddened for both, though the amount of attacks and the amount of losed lives to the larger amount of attacks and the higher amount of our lives lost, due to the conflicts not being the same is all I am saying here and again, I don’t think you can compare what you faced to what we face.

Yes in simple terms we all share that our citizens have been killed, but just like you cant compare the conflict of WW2 to say the conflict in Iraq, even though in both conflicts, yes people died, but that doesn’t mean they are comparable, even though in both DEATH is a common denominator, and so too what you face and what we face are not comparable at all.


Ok I think we've beat this one enough, as I've said there are no comparisons but people have still died!






I love the way you keep on talking about my silence when people have posted on the loss of innocent Israeli life( and I'm not trying to make reference to my other post, I thought this one had died a death and I could move on)please point me in the direction of other posts that have highlighted the loss of Innocent Israeli life? I say again, since I have been on this forum, I don’t believe I have seen you make any comments in threads dealing with our victims or those that commit those actions against us, now to ask me to dig up all the threads dealing with that and simply saying, "where are you there?" Is absurd for its too time consuming as such I ask you to point out just a few of your posts in those types of threads, a task that’s much less time consuming then what you have asked of me.

You have been on this forum since Sept 2003(0.66% of total / 7.13 posts per day) I joined Feb 2004(0.16% of total / 3.90 posts per day) I would say based on this you post a hell of allot more than me? So in my 4-5months on here I can't say any thread on innocent Israelis's being killed hasn't jumped out at me yet! So please get off the hypocrisy tip!




So can you show me a post of yours where you commented on the loss of our lives or anything that comments on what we face, for till now, with regards to the Israeli/Arab conflict, I think all I saw of you were constant harping on a zoo and terrorists houses that we have destroyed.

Woohah there nelly.......I talked about the total destruction in Rafah how the IDF not only destroyed homes the Zoo but even green houses? Are these people compensated for these loses or is it just seen as collateral damage?



“:cantbeli: Yes again we established before that you never served your nation and were never a soldier and as such you, as a mere armchair civilian, have no concept of what a war zone entails and how if there are arms smuggling tunnels in one area and when the IDF finally goes in to stop that arms smuggling, the whole area around it has gunman firing from all sorts of places and not just on top of that tunnel, not to mention the whole area around it is laden with ****y traps, but your insistence on negating those realties only further shows your ignorance on what we really face.”




I have nothing to add to this as your whole arguement comes from the fact I've never served my Country!:cantbeli: haha rofl and that’s your whole counter response :roll: ….preatty weak, though typical by you already :cantbeli:

Counter response????? *you* keep on telling me I'm clueless because I haven't served?



Go read it again for besides pointing our how you never served, a obvious thing simply based on your ignorance of what is a war zone, a subject that you somehow decided you’d engage in but when I point out your ignorance or that you never served, which is a factor to point out when you make the comments that you have made, you seem bewildered why I even mention you never served :roll:

No, you're telling me that everywhere the IDF is is a warzone? so by that I'm ignorant to everything the IDF does.



“Secondly we lost 13 soldiers there and NO IDF soldier will ever refer to that area as our playground…the nerve that you have :roll: though I guess in reality you dont upset me at all for I really don’t expect anything less from one that never served such as yourself :roll: “

How can you talk about nerve when you have the IDF shooting newsreporters and cameramen that are clearly marked as such, why in Rafah was it nessecery to detroy the Olive trees and the green houses or again is it classified as a warzone?




How many non-terrorists lost they're lives that day? surely not everyone in that area is a terrorist, or am I being ignorant again due to my lack of experience in serving my Country? and as I have said before, I too am sorry for the innocents that were killed, but I know we don’t purposely target them and its sad, but in war zones, where there are gunman all around shooting from within civilians and using them as cover (or I can show you pics where thier civilians have purposely thrown themselves to be used as cover after their gunman shoot at us) well as the Brits and Americans and others have learned in Iraq, Afghanistan and even NATO in Bosnia (and in other conflicts) the loss of civilians is unavoidable at times, but I repeat we don’t purposely target them.

Is this what the IDF considers to be colorectal damage? how is it that the media is showing images of children being shot and killed, am I just not getting something here????




But regardless your playground comment was despicable though again I cant expect you to understand that being that you have no concept of what its like to be a soldier being that you never served, for if you would you wouldnt make the comment you made.

So what do you want me to say that what the IDF does is always justified?


[quote=Geezah]
Like I said before, could please supply examples so that I may better educate myself on the subject? . I did, I said from 1936 to 1939, you destroyed over 5000 homes.

You’re a Brit, I am sure in all those Brit sites that you posted before, they mentioned it ;) :roll:

That doesn't tell me a thing, you seem to be so well educated on the subject so I thought you'd have references at hand? I guess not!




Exposing my hypocrisy? How? Well you harping about homes being destroyed, when your own nation did it (or even the U.S did it in this currant Iraq conflict), and all sorts of actions that you point the finger on us when I can site examples of your (the U.S. and others) that have done the same and IMO even done the same with much less of a security threat to their vital national security that we face on a daily basis.

That hypocrisy!!

So I could say that the Palistinians learnt how to be terrorists from the likes of Urgana or the Stern Gang? So how can *you* condemn something your rnrmey learnt form you?




What about the homes that are destroyed and the land that is taken to put up that barrier That’s our land to build a security fence and we have every right to use it

Is this also the case for the Israali settlements that are going up everywhere?




Hell I believe the U.S. even has some sort of law (I forgot the name of it though if anyone knows it if they can post it id appreciate it) where they can take land for the use of the state like building highways or stuff like that.

They can't just come in one day and take it it's a bit more drawn out than that plus the govermnment form my understanding will pay market valure for the property.



Also note that homes that are destroyed, the occupants are fully compensated, and yes I recognize its sad that we have to do that, but if a choice between us losing more LIVES or the other bad choice of compensating a pali family for losing their home, I choose LIFE over mere bricks and stones.

But it's not just bricks here innocent people are dieing!




Btw just curious, can you give me a reputable figure (and list the site) of how many homes we have destroyed for the anti terror fence? For I don’t believe we have destroyed many.

Lastly I repeat “I mean out of the hundreds of thousands or even millions of homes in the west bank and Gaza, the percent of destroyed homes is less then .oooo1 percent, hardly a sigh of wanton and senseless destruction by us”

Hey......you're the ex-IDF member not me you'd have a better hand on figures over there?



Secondly I also keep on telling you how you don’t apply universal standards in how you bombard this forum when we do something, but are almost silent about what is being done to us, not to mention how I find you in general to be very hypocritical in how you condemn us for some of the very same actions that your own nations (the U.S. and Britain) has committed.

Where? also please see above where my time on this board has been less than yours!




Are we talking in the past here? I could do that then and condem the Israeli's for Christ being crucified :cantbeli: past?, no we are talking present (Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia) or even in the past few decades.

Present....when......I don't remember IRA members houses being demolished? and as far as Christ's death it was in the past which is something I can't even bring up because it was in the past so stop trying to keep on bringing the UKs past actions into this thread! I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous your arguements sounds "well you did it so why can't I"!!!



That’s all relevant when you point accusatory fingers but yet your own nation, where IMO you have faced much less of a threat to your national security yet in some conflicts you have done some of the same actions that you are so appalled we have done.

That is hypocrisy!!

Please show me where we have done the same thing that Israel is doing now in the last 20yrs?



As for Chirst, well we didn’t kill him so your attempt at another straw man argument falls flat here :roll:

No, I was just highlighting the fact that it took place in the past, it's pretty hard to keep on comparing/refering/justifying what you guys are doing to something that may have happened 70-80yrs ago! So by what you have/are said/saying it's ok for the IDF to do what they are currently doing because the British did it in the past even though they no longer do this we're still in a position where we are not allowed to criticque other Countries for carrying on or adopting something we no longer do? Are we
no longer allowed to repent for past sins?




Though I see that now that you love going off in other directions with straw man arguments, well here too I guess I should now expect a whole who killed Jesus debate simply because you love to throw in absurd and off topic issues in an attempt to put up smokescreens to hide your clear hypocrisy and double standards in the way you view us and how your view your own actions :cantbeli: :roll:

No smokescreens just a pit stop ;)





P.S. Maybe one day we may meet and even though we have different Political and Military views we might get on and hopefully you won't threaten to shoot me in the foot like my In-Law because our Political views differ ;) Funny that you think I might shoot you, for I actually thought that if I ever met you in the states with your gun collection and lets say the redneck stereotype that you might exude ;) , well it was I that thought I might get shot from you.

I'm no Redneck but my In-Laws are bikers, not sure if that's the same thing?;) Plus I'm not big into threatening to shoot people unless they break into my house :)




Anyways yeah we might meet and hell international politics or not, I am always up for a nice "shoot" at the local gun range ;)

I'm always looking for an excuse to get to the range :D




Oh and you say we have different military views, well its been my experience that those who have served usually do have a different view on military details and realities then those who haven’t p-)

Shalom :D

And I understand that I'm ignorant to the ways of war but I should still be allowed to have a voice?

[Geezah]

Hey....I can't help it if that's the impression I get, if you want to paint it as a straw man arguement then go ahead and paint, but like I said I get the impression that everythings worse in Israel and the rest of the World is rosy? of course it’s a straw man argument for I never said nor implied that, but I guess I cant stop you from having your wishful impression of what you think I am claiming, for I guess the fact that I don’t think the way you think I do doesn’t exactly fit into your distorted worldview of what really is our view on things.

As for ‘I get the impression that everythings worse in Israel and the rest of the World is rosy?’ :cantbeli: wow that’s absurd and any sane individual that is looking at our debates cant possible see how I claimed or insinuated what you just said.

I just get the impression that you want to downplay anything that's taken place elsewhere in the World, IMHO and I'm entitled to it!



No, things aren’t rosy in other places and the things the IRA did in your nation (and things that go on in other nations) is also bad and indeed a lot of other nations have been victims of terrorism as well, I fully recognize that, however I say again, when comparing the intensity and the level of attacks and stated goals of the IRA to the terrorists groups and actions that Israel faces, well I don’t think you can compare and overall Israel faces a lot worse and the ideology it faces is a lot less compromising to any peace no matter what Israel does or doesn’t do, unlike the groups (the IRA) that you face.

I don't remember comparing the two?, I just talked about how I got the impression you trying to downplay what the IRA did!





In a way having a suicidal mentality doesn't cut it as being that much worse than the terrorist coming back to wreak havoc another day! ahh but the difference lies in the measures taken to prevent such actions and when a nation (yours) is faced with an enemy that does NOT have people with a suicidal ideology nor doesn’t have suicide bombers, it allows its preventive actions and measures to be much different (and I say lighter and tamer) then a nation that faces terrorists with that suicidal ideology and that is one of the reasons I mentioned it for I contend that our actions are different then yours for what we face is a lot different then yours.

Please explain, do you mean tamer in the sense of building a barrier or in the sense of killing the terrorist?




“Though IMO if the Brits faced exactly what we faced, they would act as such or in fact IMO much harsher then how we have acted!”

IFs a big word, I don't think we will ever know about that? True we can never know, but I see them doing a lot of the same actions in the past or even present with much less vital nations security at their stake then what we face so I can only conclude if they faced exactly what we faced, well I do think they would act as such or even harsher.


Again IFs a big word!




Why do you keep on saying that the IRA didn't want to wreak total destruction in the UK, I think given half the chance they would have done it quite happily but I put the lost opportunities down to the good work by those that work in the shadows! Yes I do content that I don’t think their goal was the total destruction of Britain and they certainly didn’t have any religious or any fundamentalists ideology for that, like what we face and that IMO is one of the Major differences in what we faced and what you faced.

The IRA simply wanted the Brits out of their part of Ireland that is it and not the complete destruction of Britain.

Please don't forget you had the Catholics fighting Protestants so religion was involved but you are right in the sense that it wasn't the IRAs goal to kill themselves because they wanted to come back for a another day!
I do know that a few of the IRA members that have been on prison over the years went on hunger strike and died for their beliefs!


1974 Guildford pub bombing by the IRA leaves 5 dead and 44 injured.

1974 Birmingham pub bombing by the IRA kills 19 dead, 182 people are injured.

1979 Lord Mountbatten and three others are killed by IRA

1982 Two bombs in Hyde Park and Regent's Park, London by the IRA killl 8 members of the Household Cavalry and the Royal Green Jackets seven horses are also killed.

1983 Harrods bomb by the IRA. Six are killed (including three police officers) and 90 wounded during Christmas shopping at the West London department store.

1984 IRA bomb in the Grand Hotel Brighton 5 are killed in an attempt to kill members of the British cabinet.

1985 IRA mortar attack kills nine soldiers in Newry

1987 Enniskillen massacre. Remembrance Day parade in Enniskillen, County Fermanagh is bombed by the IRA and 11 are killed and 63 injured

1989 Ten Royal Marines bandsmen are killed and 22 injured when base in Deal, Kent is bombed by the IRA.

1990 A series of car bombings directed by the IRA in Northern Ireland leave 7 people dead and 37 wounded.

1991 Two IRA members are killed by their own bomb in St Albans.

1992 Eight Protestant builders killed by an IRA bomb on their way to work at an Army base near Omagh.

1993 IRA bomb in Warrington kills two children.

1993 IRA detonate a huge truck bomb in the City of London at Bishopsgate, killing two and causing approximately £350m of damage.

1993 A bomb at a fish and chip shop on the Protestant Shankill Road, Belfast kills 10 people, including two children.

1996 IRA break their cease-fire and kill two in a bomb at the Canary Wharf towers in London.

1996 Manchester bombing by IRA

1998 Omagh bombing by the so-called "Real IRA" kills 29.


We have experienced terrorism on two fronts, I have direct experience form one foiled attempt by the IRA, they tried to blow up Hammersmith bridge the night I went to see friends in Barnes and this was shortly after they had spent money on renovating it!




Listen we also stop a lot, as you guys did, but the stated goals and ideology were much different between what we face and what you face and I believe as such the intensity of what we face and the size and scope of it is/was much greater and thats a greater facter to how what you face was much less then what we face then anything that your responsive actuons did to make it less.

Yes, the IRAs goal was to get the British and Protestants out of NI?




We could compare it to the killings fields of Cambodia or Rwanda? Compare what? The IRA and your actions, or ours?….anyway I don’t think both us or you can compare to the two examples you just stated in terms of the amount of deaths they have seen.

Anyways what does this have to do with anything? you’re a Brit and in this discussion in this thread you were involved in a comparison to your nations actions and its enemies to ours and I only jumped in on that comparison alone, that is what our discussion is and not on other conflicts.


Maybe I'm crazy but I don't remember where I tried to compare the two conflicts? someone else brought up the IRA and NI!




Are we both talking about DEATH here? Yes and again your citizens and our citizens dieing at the hands of terrorists is sad and I am saddened for both, though the amount of attacks and the amount of losed lives to the larger amount of attacks and the higher amount of our lives lost, due to the conflicts not being the same is all I am saying here and again, I don’t think you can compare what you faced to what we face.

Yes in simple terms we all share that our citizens have been killed, but just like you cant compare the conflict of WW2 to say the conflict in Iraq, even though in both conflicts, yes people died, but that doesn’t mean they are comparable, even though in both DEATH is a common denominator, and so too what you face and what we face are not comparable at all.


Ok I think we've beat this one enough, as I've said there are no comparisons but people have still died!





I love the way you keep on talking about my silence when people have posted on the loss of innocent Israeli life( and I'm not trying to make reference to my other post, I thought this one had died a death and I could move on)please point me in the direction of other posts that have highlighted the loss of Innocent Israeli life? I say again, since I have been on this forum, I don’t believe I have seen you make any comments in threads dealing with our victims or those that commit those actions against us, now to ask me to dig up all the threads dealing with that and simply saying, "where are you there?" Is absurd for its too time consuming as such I ask you to point out just a few of your posts in those types of threads, a task that’s much less time consuming then what you have asked of me.

You have been on this forum since Sept 2003(0.66% of total / 7.13 posts per day) I joined Feb 2004(0.16% of total / 3.90 posts per day) I would say based on this you post a hell of allot more than me? So in my 4-5months on here I can't say any thread on innocent Israelis's being killed hasn't jumped out at me yet! So please get off the hypocrisy tip!




So can you show me a post of yours where you commented on the loss of our lives or anything that comments on what we face, for till now, with regards to the Israeli/Arab conflict, I think all I saw of you were constant harping on a zoo and terrorists houses that we have destroyed.

Woohah there nelly.......I talked about the total destruction in Rafah how the IDF not only destroyed homes the Zoo but even green houses? Are these people compensated for these loses or is it just seen as collateral damage?



“:cantbeli: Yes again we established before that you never served your nation and were never a soldier and as such you, as a mere armchair civilian, have no concept of what a war zone entails and how if there are arms smuggling tunnels in one area and when the IDF finally goes in to stop that arms smuggling, the whole area around it has gunman firing from all sorts of places and not just on top of that tunnel, not to mention the whole area around it is laden with ****y traps, but your insistence on negating those realties only further shows your ignorance on what we really face.”




I have nothing to add to this as your whole arguement comes from the fact I've never served my Country!:cantbeli: haha rofl and that’s your whole counter response :roll: ….preatty weak, though typical by you already :cantbeli:

Counter response????? *you* keep on telling me I'm clueless because I haven't served?



Go read it again for besides pointing our how you never served, a obvious thing simply based on your ignorance of what is a war zone, a subject that you somehow decided you’d engage in but when I point out your ignorance or that you never served, which is a factor to point out when you make the comments that you have made, you seem bewildered why I even mention you never served :roll:

No, you're telling me that everywhere the IDF is is a warzone? so by that I'm ignorant to everything the IDF does.



“Secondly we lost 13 soldiers there and NO IDF soldier will ever refer to that area as our playground…the nerve that you have :roll: though I guess in reality you dont upset me at all for I really don’t expect anything less from one that never served such as yourself :roll: “

How can you talk about nerve when you have the IDF shooting newsreporters and cameramen that are clearly marked as such, why in Rafah was it nessecery to detroy the Olive trees and the green houses or again is it classified as a warzone?




How many non-terrorists lost they're lives that day? surely not everyone in that area is a terrorist, or am I being ignorant again due to my lack of experience in serving my Country? and as I have said before, I too am sorry for the innocents that were killed, but I know we don’t purposely target them and its sad, but in war zones, where there are gunman all around shooting from within civilians and using them as cover (or I can show you pics where thier civilians have purposely thrown themselves to be used as cover after their gunman shoot at us) well as the Brits and Americans and others have learned in Iraq, Afghanistan and even NATO in Bosnia (and in other conflicts) the loss of civilians is unavoidable at times, but I repeat we don’t purposely target them.

Is this what the IDF considers to be colorectal damage? how is it that the media is showing images of children being shot and killed, am I just not getting something here????




But regardless your playground comment was despicable though again I cant expect you to understand that being that you have no concept of what its like to be a soldier being that you never served, for if you would you wouldnt make the comment you made.

So what do you want me to say that what the IDF does is always justified?




Like I said before, could please supply examples so that I may better educate myself on the subject? . I did, I said from 1936 to 1939, you destroyed over 5000 homes.

You’re a Brit, I am sure in all those Brit sites that you posted before, they mentioned it ;) :roll:

That doesn't tell me a thing, you seem to be so well educated on the subject so I thought you'd have references at hand? I guess not!




Exposing my hypocrisy? How? Well you harping about homes being destroyed, when your own nation did it (or even the U.S did it in this currant Iraq conflict), and all sorts of actions that you point the finger on us when I can site examples of your (the U.S. and others) that have done the same and IMO even done the same with much less of a security threat to their vital national security that we face on a daily basis.

That hypocrisy!!

So I could say that the Palistinians learnt how to be terrorists from the likes of Urgana or the Stern Gang? So how can *you* condemn something your rnrmey learnt form you?




What about the homes that are destroyed and the land that is taken to put up that barrier That’s our land to build a security fence and we have every right to use it

Is this also the case for the Israali settlements that are going up everywhere?




Hell I believe the U.S. even has some sort of law (I forgot the name of it though if anyone knows it if they can post it id appreciate it) where they can take land for the use of the state like building highways or stuff like that.

They can't just come in one day and take it it's a bit more drawn out than that plus the govermnment form my understanding will pay market valure for the property.



Also note that homes that are destroyed, the occupants are fully compensated, and yes I recognize its sad that we have to do that, but if a choice between us losing more LIVES or the other bad choice of compensating a pali family for losing their home, I choose LIFE over mere bricks and stones.

But it's not just bricks here innocent people are dieing!




Btw just curious, can you give me a reputable figure (and list the site) of how many homes we have destroyed for the anti terror fence? For I don’t believe we have destroyed many.

Lastly I repeat “I mean out of the hundreds of thousands or even millions of homes in the west bank and Gaza, the percent of destroyed homes is less then .oooo1 percent, hardly a sigh of wanton and senseless destruction by us”

Hey......you're the ex-IDF member not me you'd have a better hand on figures over there?



Secondly I also keep on telling you how you don’t apply universal standards in how you bombard this forum when we do something, but are almost silent about what is being done to us, not to mention how I find you in general to be very hypocritical in how you condemn us for some of the very same actions that your own nations (the U.S. and Britain) has committed.

Where? also please see above where my time on this board has been less than yours!




Are we talking in the past here? I could do that then and condem the Israeli's for Christ being crucified :cantbeli: past?, no we are talking present (Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia) or even in the past few decades.

Present....when......I don't remember IRA members houses being demolished? and as far as Christ's death it was in the past which is something I can't even bring up because it was in the past so stop trying to keep on bringing the UKs past actions into this thread! I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous your arguements sounds "well you did it so why can't I"!!!



That’s all relevant when you point accusatory fingers but yet your own nation, where IMO you have faced much less of a threat to your national security yet in some conflicts you have done some of the same actions that you are so appalled we have done.

That is hypocrisy!!

Please show me where we have done the same thing that Israel is doing now in the last 20yrs?



As for Chirst, well we didn’t kill him so your attempt at another straw man argument falls flat here :roll:

No, I was just highlighting the fact that it took place in the past, it's pretty hard to keep on comparing/refering/justifying what you guys are doing to something that may have happened 70-80yrs ago! So by what you have/are said/saying it's ok for the IDF to do what they are currently doing because the British did it in the past even though they no longer do this we're still in a position where we are not allowed to criticque other Countries for carrying on or adopting something we no longer do? Are we
no longer allowed to repent for past sins?




Though I see that now that you love going off in other directions with straw man arguments, well here too I guess I should now expect a whole who killed Jesus debate simply because you love to throw in absurd and off topic issues in an attempt to put up smokescreens to hide your clear hypocrisy and double standards in the way you view us and how your view your own actions :cantbeli: :roll:

No smokescreens just a pit stop ;)





P.S. Maybe one day we may meet and even though we have different Political and Military views we might get on and hopefully you won't threaten to shoot me in the foot like my In-Law because our Political views differ ;) Funny that you think I might shoot you, for I actually thought that if I ever met you in the states with your gun collection and lets say the redneck stereotype that you might exude ;) , well it was I that thought I might get shot from you.

I'm no Redneck but my In-Laws are bikers, not sure if that's the same thing?;) Plus I'm not big into threatening to shoot people unless they break into my house :)




Anyways yeah we might meet and hell international politics or not, I am always up for a nice "shoot" at the local gun range ;)

I'm always looking for an excuse to get to the range :D




Oh and you say we have different military views, well its been my experience that those who have served usually do have a different view on military details and realities then those who haven’t p-)

Shalom :D

And I understand that I'm ignorant to the ways of war but I should still be allowed to have a voice?

[IDFM203]

I just get the impression that you want to downplay anything that's taken place elsewhere in the World, IMHO and I'm entitled to it! :cantbeli: hehe :lol: yes sir, indeed you are entitled to your opinion, as we all are, though just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean your right about it and frankly your opinion of my views are clearly false!

Though I certainly understand why you persist on claiming what your so-called impression is of me ;) :roll:

I don’t downplay other conflicts, though when I see you overplay your situation as if its comparable to ours, when in reality its not, then I will point that out.....that is all.


I don't remember comparing the two?,My first post in this thread was in response to the general comparison between both that I saw you and others engaged in, and my first post dwelt with how there is no comparison, what I saw from you was trying to show how you faced similar to what we face and I simply disagree for I contend what we face was much larger and on a much more intensive scale with a fundamentalist ideology of total destruction that makes what we face much different then what you face

Please explain, do you mean tamer in the sense of building a barrier or in the sense of killing the terrorist? yes in the sense of building a anti terror security fence, in the sense of targeted killings, in the sense of our checkpoints, in the sense of home demolitions etc….the whole conflict that we face is a lot different then what you face and as such we are forced to act accordingly.

Though I say again, you still did a lot of what we did in some of your conflicts, and I might add with much less vital national security at your stake, but yes I do admit you did it much less and its as such, simply because you don’t face what we do.


Again IFs a big word! Yes it is but one can draw from recent past experiences that are similar and how one reacts and then and see well if one acted as such then, well one can only logically conclude if the situation was like us, well the conclusions would be similar to how I concluded ;)


Please don't forget you had the Catholics fighting Protestants so religion was involved yes religioun was involved, though there was no religious belief that you had to destroy all of Britain or there was no suicidal religious belief that encouraged suicide bombings, these are MAJOR differences in what you face and what we face.

1974

1974.

1979

1982
1983.

1984.

1985
1987
1989
1992
1993.

1993
1993
1996
1998
Yes I recognize this list and its sad, but our list is much larger and in fact we see more attacks in ONE year then in all those years combined.

Again the situation that we face and what you face is NOT comparable.


Yes, the IRAs goal was to get the British and Protestants out of NI? you’re a Brit and your asking me? :roll: All I know is that they didn’t have the stated goal of destroying all of Great Britain.


Maybe I'm crazy but I don't remember where I tried to compare the two conflicts? someone else brought up the IRA and NI! and that wasn’t me either (go look back, it wasn’t I that brought it up)………………..but you did just bring up Cambodia and Rwanda, why?


Ok I think we've beat this one enough, as I've said there are no comparisons but people have still died! well it seemed as if you tried to use the common denominator of death as somehow our situation and yours are similar, which is a rather weak and lazy argument to make and I suspect even you know that ;) , for death is a common denominator in all conflicts and in all actions, though that is hardly a argument for a comparison to two conflicts.


You have been on this forum since Sept 2003(0.66% of total / 7.13 posts per day) I joined Feb 2004(0.16% of total / 3.90 posts per day) I would say based on this you post a hell of allot more than me? So in my 4-5months on here I can't say any thread on innocent Israelis's being killed hasn't jumped out at me yet! So please get off the hypocrisy tip! no no on this point alone, I don’t exactly call you a hypocrite (there are other points for that ;) ) , but merely one that doesn’t apply universal standards in when you are so outraged over what we do but remain silent over what is done to us.

Now since you have been on, I haven’t seen you post one post commenting on anything that has happened to us or on what we face.



Woohah there nelly.......I talked about the total destruction in Rafah how the IDF not only destroyed homes the Zoo but even green houses? Are these people compensated for these loses or is it just seen as collateral damage? total destruction in rafah? :roll: You mean all of rafah we destroyed? :roll: I don’t think so!! And yes the small parts of it that we destroyed in that war zone, where in green houses, and in zoos and in houses, there were pali gunman firing from, ****y trapped mines and mortar firing, all in their efforts to defend those arms smuggling tunnels that they use to fire at our cities and towns.

And yes I saw plenty posts from you just on that zoo, though zero on what we face or when our soldiers or civilians were killed.


Counter response????? *you* keep on telling me I'm clueless because I haven't served? :cantbeli: beeep wrong answer……..I keep on telling you your wrong for your comments show complete ignorance simply based on what you wrote, not just because you haven’t served but because as I have shown (and I make a case for it and not simply say you don’t know because you haven’t served), you have no concept of what we face or what is a real war zone as I explained in great detail and then I add I understand why you show the ignorance that you do, for you talk about things that as one that never served, you have no REAL concept of what you are talking about.

Now indeed there are some (Keyword SOME) that haven’t served that do know, but that’s not you ;)


No, you're telling me that everywhere the IDF is is a warzone? so by that I'm ignorant to everything the IDF does. Yes when the IDF goes in, it is a war zone simply by the fact that the palis make it as such when they use every inch of the land there, be it homes, green houses, zoos, to engage in a war, simply to protect their arms smuggling tunnels, where those tunnels we have every right to go in to stop.

Its not just about you being ignorant to what the IDF does but rather your simple ignorance to what a war zone is and what we face.


How can you talk about nerve when you have the IDF shooting newsreporters and cameramen that are clearly marked as such, How does that negate the dispicabe and shameful terms you used before in what was a place of war (a playground :roll:)?

Oh and as for what you just said now, So out of the thousands of reporters that are there we are all shooting at them? :roll: I belive Israel has the highest concentration of reporters then anywhere else in the world, yes I hear reports of them being shot at daily :roll: …..no, when it happens, its hardly “the IDF” doing it but rather a few soldiers have done it a few times, its like you have British soldiers that have done bad things a few times.

Secondly not all times is it clear to see if they are a reporter, and mistakes like that do happen unfortunately in a war zone but again you see a picture so you think it is but you never were in a APC in a war zone so you have no idea how easy or hard it is to spot.


Why in Rafah was it nessecery to detroy the Olive trees and the green houses or again is it classified as a warzone? First of all the U.S. did it in Iraq, but I guess only when Jews do it to we point it out :roll:

Secondly if they fire from there, or use it as cover for snipers, then yes it is a war zone!!


Is this what the IDF considers to be colorectal damage? how is it that the media is showing images of children being shot and killed, am I just not getting something here???? you mean in Iraq and in Afghanistan and NATO in Bosnia?

I mean heck even in just the afganisthan war, "the colition" there has killed much more then Israel did in all of four years of conflict. And then there isn’t even close to a compersion to a few months in Iraq where there too you (generic) have killed much more then we have in all of four years.

Or to use your language “Is this what the “coalition” considers to be colorectal damage? how is it that the media is showing images of children being shot and killed, am I just not getting something here????

So in four years of conflict where there have been thousands and thousands of operations and shooting attacks against us and shootings by us in response and in their population of over 3 million, and also not even getting into whose a terrorists and who’s not, the fact that ONLY (and yes its sad but compared to other conflicts, I have no other word to use) 3000 have died by us is IMO a clear sign of our control and how we don’t purposely target civilians or children.

I say again, its sad when an innocent child is killed and we do not celebrate it when we commit that (unlike the plai's in general that do celebrate the loss of our civilians) and yes we aren’t perfect and in all our actions I wont justify every single one of them for indeed I know like in every military, we also have our few bad apples, but in general for the most part we do NOT purposely target civilians or children but when you have a lot of cases where the kids purposely put themselves in harms way or the gun man force them to do so, and they fire at us from within, well its unavoidable at times.

This is just one pic of what happens all the time

http://www.israel-wat.com/abuse.jpg



So what do you want me to say that what the IDF does is always justified? no not always, just I understand the realties of what we face and as such I believe I simply put the proper context of what the IDF is doing and what it really faces

I have said this before, we aren’t perfect and yes we do make mistakes (as does everyone else) and not everything we did for our defense in the past 50 plus years can I justify, but overall I know we for the most part do NOT intentionally target civilians of any kind and overall I believe we act just in our actions especially considering the real realties that we have had to face.



That doesn't tell me a thing, you seem to be so well educated on the subject so I thought you'd have references at hand? I guess not! ok ok so you want a reference, for indeed I am well educated on this, though I admit references are hard to find.


Anyways after a quick search I found two sites, one is a pali site (hardly a pro Israel site and you can see that after a quick glance from reading the rest there), and the other site is from the Jerusalem post.

1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.

For that link click Here (http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=3782&CategoryId=2)


By Rafael Medoff - April 22, 2002. From: Jerusalem Post

"Demolishing the homes of Arab civilians... Shooting handcuffed prisoners... Forcing local Arabs to test areas where mines may have been planted..."
These sound like the sort of accusations made by British and other European officials concerning Israel's recent actions in Jenin. In fact, they are descriptions from official British documents concerning the methods used by the British authorities to combat Palestinian Arab terrorism in Jenin and elsewhere in 1938.

The documents were declassified by London in 1989. They provide details of the British Mandatory government's response to the assassination of a British district commissioner by a Palestinian Arab terrorist in Jenin in the summer of 1938.

Even after the suspected assassin was captured (and then shot dead while allegedly trying to escape), the British authorities decided that "a large portion of the town should be blown up" as punishment. On August 25 of that year, a British convoy brought 4,200 kilos of explosives to Jenin for that purpose.

When the troops left, there was little else remaining of the once-busy village except a pile of mangled masonry," The New York Times reported.


For more that was written there, click Here (http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/Articles/Medoff-2002-04-22.asp)


So I could say that the Palistinians learnt how to be terrorists from the likes of Urgana or the Stern Gang? So how can *you* condemn something your rnrmey learnt form you? No first of all if they learnt from anyone it was from their own people that were committing terrorists attacks way before any Jews did anything that some accuse us of doing (the 1929 massacre in Hebron is just one example) but anyways even back them, must of us condemn what they were doing, I said before those acts of terrorism (and btw most of their acts were not and most of their acts were against MILITARY targets ONLY, and the ones that weren’t, were not in support by most Jews).

So yes I do condemn what a few of us did back then and in fact most Jews condemn it.

Secondly again this straw man diversion tactic doesn’t take away from what I said in that you point the finger at us, when your own nation does exactly the same actions that we have done and it does so now, in the past decade and much earlier then that, that is hypocrisy and that’s my point, not so much who learnt from who.

Is this also the case for the Israali settlements that are going up everywhere? you know the settlements constitute less then 5 percent of the land mass, so please tell me how they are going up everywhere? :roll:

Secondly yes its our land, for after acquiring land in a defensive war, well I believe we have the right to build on that land, I mean hell if not, then I would suspect that California, Arizona and Texas should be given back to Mexico and the rest should be given back to the Indians (and I can site examples from all over the world as such).

I mean in fact I believe we have a stronger case to build on our land (being that we attained it in defensive wars), then the U.S has to build on theirs.

Secondly we aren’t talking about settlements, but rather about our security fence and well we should have the right to build it wherever we deem necessary to protect our lives.

They can't just come in one day and take it it's a bit more drawn out than that plus the govermnment form my understanding will pay market valure for the property. Yes and we have also compensated them for destroyed homes when the homes are destroyed for the anti terror security fence.

Btw I ask again, how many homes have we destroyed because of that fence and site a reputable source for that figure for I don’t think we have destroyed many.


But it's not just bricks here innocent people are dieing! no before we are talking about the homes being destroyed and if thats justified and I say yes and also when we do destroy a home, usually no one is dieing.

I repeat “Also note that homes that are destroyed, the occupants are fully compensated, and yes I recognize its sad that we have to do that, but if a choice between us losing more LIVES or the other bad choice of compensating a pali family for losing their home, I choose LIFE over mere bricks and stones.”


Hey......you're the ex-IDF member not me you'd have a better hand on figures over there? and I already said its not much.

You made the insinuation that homes are being destroyed because of the anti terror security fence and I dispute it, so where are your figures to back up what YOU said?


Present....when......I don't remember IRA members houses being demolished? Again with houses, yes with regards to the Brits, that was the past (and something we got it from ) though the Americans it is the present.

Anyways with present I wasn’t referring to homes being destroyed, but rather targeted killings, dropping bombs on civilians, shooting civilians, cutting down trees etc… all things that the “coalition” or NATO have done in Iraq, Afghanistan and NATO in Bosnia.


and as far as Christ's death it was in the past which is something I can't even bring up because it was in the past so stop trying to keep on bringing the UKs past actions into this thread!

I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous your arguements sounds "well you did it so why can't I"!!! no, except for house demolitions, much of what I talked about is present or rather recent past.

As for home demolitions I merely pointed it out to show how absurd it is for you to harp on us when in fact we got that practice from YOU!!

My whole comparisons to what you did is merely to show your hypocrisy in condemning our actions (that I believe are actually unavoidable in combat) when your own nations has done a lot of the same, and no not only in the past am I talking about, but also the present or recent past.



Please show me where we have done the same thing that Israel is doing now in the last 20yrs? no not same thing in general because again you don’t face the same as what we face (as I clearly pointed out to you before), but I can show where you have done some of the same actions, like targeted killings, killed innocent civilians, etc.. yes on those that you accuse us, you have done the same and again I believe with much less of a threat to your vital national security at you stake.


And I understand that I'm ignorant to the ways of war but I should still be allowed to have a voice? I have made this very clear to you before, you have every right to express your opinion and indeed you are allowed to have a voice, all I am saying is at the same token, I can show you how your voice on military matters is ignorant (as you now even admit to) and as such you should understand your own ignorance and limitations on commenting on matters of war, when you your self admit that you are ignorant to the ways of war.

Basically in simpler terms, yes you are allowed a voice, though at the same token, I am allowed to show you how that voice is patently ignorant and blind to the realities that you decided to put forth your voice on ;)



Shalom :D

[Geezah]

I just get the impression that you want to downplay anything that's taken place elsewhere in the World, IMHO and I'm entitled to it! :cantbeli: hehe :lol: yes sir, indeed you are entitled to your opinion, as we all are, though just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean your right about it and frankly your opinion of my views are clearly false!

Though I certainly understand why you persist on claiming what your so-called impression is of me ;) :roll:

The suspense is killing me??



I don’t downplay other conflicts, though when I see you overplay your situation as if its comparable to ours, when in reality its not, then I will point that out.....that is all.

How do I overplay?





I don't remember comparing the two?,My first post in this thread was in response to the general comparison between both that I saw you and others engaged in, and my first post dwelt with how there is no comparison, what I saw from you was trying to show how you faced similar to what we face and I simply disagree for I contend what we face was much larger and on a much more intensive scale with a fundamentalist ideology of total destruction that makes what we face much different then what you face

Again I don't remember trying to compare the two?




Though I say again, you still did a lot of what we did in some of your conflicts, and I might add with much less vital national security at your stake, but yes I do admit you did it much less and its as such, simply because you don’t face what we do.

But you said you learnt these tactics from the Brits now it seems you didn't?





Please don't forget you had the Catholics fighting Protestants so religion was involved yes religioun was involved, though there was no religious belief that you had to destroy all of Britain or there was no suicidal religious belief that encouraged suicide bombings, these are MAJOR differences in what you face and what we face.

I found this little titbit, you guys kept on saying that the IRA mainly targetted the Military,

Between 1966 and 1999 a total of 3,636 people were killed and 36,000 injured as the conflict spread beyond Northern Ireland's borders onto the British mainland and elsewhere. Most of the victims were innocent civilians.

CNN (http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/n.ireland/overview.html)

The vicitms were mainly civilians!? not the Military ones you guys claimed?





Yes, the IRAs goal was to get the British and Protestants out of NI? you’re a Brit and your asking me? :roll: All I know is that they didn’t have the stated goal of destroying all of Great Britain.


Hey, I'm just trying to confirm what I said......seeing as you know everything!?





You have been on this forum since Sept 2003(0.66% of total / 7.13 posts per day) I joined Feb 2004(0.16% of total / 3.90 posts per day) I would say based on this you post a hell of allot more than me? So in my 4-5months on here I can't say any thread on innocent Israelis's being killed hasn't jumped out at me yet! So please get off the hypocrisy tip! no no on this point alone, I don’t exactly call you a hypocrite (there are other points for that ;) ) , but merely one that doesn’t apply universal standards in when you are so outraged over what we do but remain silent over what is done to us.

Now since you have been on, I haven’t seen you post one post commenting on anything that has happened to us or on what we face.

Well you guys did do a great job at Entebbe Airport!





Woohah there nelly.......I talked about the total destruction in Rafah how the IDF not only destroyed homes the Zoo but even green houses? Are these people compensated for these loses or is it just seen as collateral damage? total destruction in rafah? :roll: You mean all of rafah we destroyed? :roll: I don’t think so!! And yes the small parts of it that we destroyed in that war zone, where in green houses, and in zoos and in houses, there were pali gunman firing from, ****y trapped mines and mortar firing, all in their efforts to defend those arms smuggling tunnels that they use to fire at our cities and towns.

You make it sound likek it was the landing at Normandy? was it that bad?





Counter response????? *you* keep on telling me I'm clueless because I haven't served? :cantbeli: beeep wrong answer……..I keep on telling you your wrong for your comments show complete ignorance simply based on what you wrote, not just because you haven’t served but because as I have shown (and I make a case for it and not simply say you don’t know because you haven’t served), you have no concept of what we face or what is a real war zone as I explained in great detail and then I add I understand why you show the ignorance that you do, for you talk about things that as one that never served, you have no REAL concept of what you are talking about.

Now indeed there are some (Keyword SOME) that haven’t served that do know, but that’s not you ;)


Well thanks to you.......I just realized that I used to live in a warzone......England...we were constantly being told to be vigilant and watch out for suspect packages and such, you never knew when they might strike and as I said before they tried blowing up Hammersmith bridge which I had just driven across from Hammersmith a few hours before :|




No, you're telling me that everywhere the IDF is is a warzone? so by that I'm ignorant to everything the IDF does. Yes when the IDF goes in, it is a war zone simply by the fact that the palis make it as such when they use every inch of the land there, be it homes, green houses, zoos, to engage in a war, simply to protect their arms smuggling tunnels, where those tunnels we have every right to go in to stop.

Its not just about you being ignorant to what the IDF does but rather your simple ignorance to what a war zone is and what we face.

NI was a warzone seeing as the Military have been there for years and were constantly patrolling, so in a way we're both used to warzones except you served in the IDF and I didn't but I'll see if I can get in contact with my Great Uncles seeing as two of them are retired RM(I have no details at hand).




How can you talk about nerve when you have the IDF shooting newsreporters and cameramen that are clearly marked as such, How does that negate the dispicabe and shameful terms you used before in what was a place of war (a playground :roll:)?

Oh and as for what you just said now, So out of the thousands of reporters that are there we are all shooting at them? :roll: I belive Israel has the highest concentration of reporters then anywhere else in the world, yes I hear reports of them being shot at daily :roll: …..no, when it happens, its hardly “the IDF” doing it but rather a few soldiers have done it a few times, its like you have British soldiers that have done bad things a few times.

Secondly not all times is it clear to see if they are a reporter, and mistakes like that do happen unfortunately in a war zone but again you see a picture so you think it is but you never were in a APC in a war zone so you have no idea how easy or hard it is to spot.

I think there's another thread on James Miller?




Why in Rafah was it nessecery to detroy the Olive trees and the green houses or again is it classified as a warzone? First of all the U.S. did it in Iraq, but I guess only when Jews(Do You Mean Israeli?)do it to we point it out :roll:

Secondly if they fire from there, or use it as cover for snipers, then yes it is a war zone!!

So again anywhere the IDF goes is a warzone.......hhhmmmmm I don't recall reading anythiung on that in NI...




I say again, its sad when an innocent child is killed and we do not celebrate it when we commit that (unlike the plai's in general that do celebrate the loss of our civilians) and yes we aren’t perfect and in all our actions I wont justify every single one of them for indeed I know like in every military, we also have our few bad apples, but in general for the most part we do NOT purposely target civilians or children but when you have a lot of cases where the kids purposely put themselves in harms way or the gun man force them to do so, and they fire at us from within, well its unavoidable at times.

There was something on discovery the other day about the affect wars around the World have on kids and it went to Israel, at one point it focused on a down where Palistinian kids were walking to school with a Palistinian flag only to be attcked by Israeli stterlers while the IDF looked on and did nothing....do you know what town I'm talking about.






So what do you want me to say that what the IDF does is always justified? no not always, just I understand the realties of what we face and as such I believe I simply put the proper context of what the IDF is doing and what it really faces

I have said this before, we aren’t perfect and yes we do make mistakes (as does everyone else) and not everything we did for our defense in the past 50 plus years can I justify, but overall I know we for the most part do NOT intentionally target civilians of any kind and overall I believe we act just in our actions especially considering the real realties that we have had to face.

I still believe some things you guys did were over thetop but I also as you said think certain things had to be done.





That doesn't tell me a thing, you seem to be so well educated on the subject so I thought you'd have references at hand? I guess not! ok ok so you want a reference, for indeed I am well educated on this, though I admit references are hard to find.


Anyways after a quick search I found two sites, one is a pali site (hardly a pro Israel site and you can see that after a quick glance from reading the rest there), and the other site is from the Jerusalem post.

1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.

For that link click Here (http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=3782&CategoryId=2)

This was an interresting read, thank you I also found this,

[quote:ed6808a71b][b:ed6808a71b]Did you Know


Did you know that by the end of 1967, there were only 3 settlements in total (concentrated in the West Bank), whereas now, this figure has risen to 195. 18 settlements have been established in Gaza Strip, and 177 in the West Bank (including Jerusalem)?

Did you know that the climax of settlement activity took place during the Likud term from mid. 1976 to mid. 1985. During that period a total of 118 settlements were established?

Did you know that The Israeli Inter-Ministerial Committee to Examine the Rate of Development for Jerusalem determined that a demographic balance of Jews and Arabs had to be maintained: 73.5% Jews and 26.5% Palestinians. (this is the favorable Israeli situation…)?

Did you know that more than 70% of Palestinians live below the poverty line (avg. $2/day)?

Did you know that more than 4,000,000 m² of cultivated Palestinian land has been deliberately destroyed by Israel since the outbreak of the Intifada in late September 2000?

Did you know that there are 4.6 million Palestinian refugees in the world today, as a result of the 1948 and 1967 Israeli occupation of Palestine?

Did you know that Israel remains the only state that has legislated the use of torture? No country other than Israel has “legally” allowed the use of torture in its “security” procedures?

Did you know that Israeli forces killed an estimated 13,000 Palestinians since 1948? They forcibly evicted 737,166 Palestinians from the homes and land. 503 Palestinian villages were entirely depopulated and destroyed?

Did you know that UN Security Council Resolution 242 was adopted unanimously on November 22nd 1967 after the Arab-Israeli war in June 1967. It calls on Israel to withdraw its military forces to the boundaries prior to that war, thus, to return all Palestinian territories it occupied by force.

Did you know that in 1882 the first wave of Zionist mass immigration to Palestine began. Baron Edmond de Rothschild of Paris provided financial support for Jewish colonization in Palestine.

Did you know that in 1896 Theodor Herzl, an Austrian Zionist leader, published “Der Judenstaat,” advocating the creation of a Jewish state. As to its location, Herzl wrote, “We shall take what is given us, and what is selected by public opinion."

Did you know that in Gaza, 80% of the population is supplied with water; however, this service is almost always irregular, unreliable, and extremely poor in quality?

Did you know that in Hebron, where a Jewish settler population was planted in and around the city, it is estimated that 70% of the water in Hebron goes to an estimated 8,500 settlers and 30% goes to the city's 250,000 Palestinian inhabitants. In Gaza, 3,000 to 4,000 settlers use 75% of the available ground water while around one million Palestinians use less than 25%?

Did you know that a deliberate campaign of “ethnic cleansing” or “silent transfer” has been in effect since 1967 fulfilling Israel’s aim to create a decisive majority of Jews in Jerusalem?

Did you know that the implementation of the Israeli Ministry of Interior’s discriminatory residency policy has meant thousands of Palestinians living in Jerusalem are forced to leave the city of their birth and lose their inherent rights as residents?

Did you know that the Israeli Inter-Ministerial Committee to Examine the Rate of Development for Jerusalem determined a demographic balance of Israeli and Palestinians had to be maintained: 73.5% Israelis and 26.5% Palestinians?

Did you know that an illegal state of siege has been imposed on Jerusalem, since 1994, banning Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza from access to the city?

Did you know that the status of Permanent Resident granted to Palestinians is revoked when a Palestinian moves outside what Israel has illegally designated as the “municipal boundaries” and when a Palestinian receives the status of a permanent resident in a foreign country or becomes a citizen of a foreign country?

Did you know that to maintain a Permanent Resident status, granted to Palestinian residents of the city, Palestinians must prove their “center of life” is in Jerusalem. The Ministry demands proof of continuous stay in the city. Authorities never warned Palestinian residents of east Jerusalem that living outside the city jeopardizes their status in the city or their right of return.

Did you know that the notification of residency revocation also includes the children of the individual receiving the notice. The Ministry’s figures only relate to those who received the notification of the decision, so the number of Jerusalem Palestinians required to leave the city is many times higher?

Did you know that the Israel’s National Insurance Institute’s implementation of the Governments policy seriously prejudices the Palestinian residents of Jerusalem and denies them basic rights including health insurance?

Did you know that the Palestinian political prisoners are subjected to egregious torture by the interrogators of the Israeli General Security Services (the Shin Bet). Torture is used routinely and systematically?

Did you know that in 1987, Israel decided to establish the Landau Commission to investigate allegations of torture against the General Security Service (GSS). However, its recommendations contributed to the systematic torture of hundreds of Palestinians each year. Later that year, it released its report with the exception of a secret appendix. The report stated that the GSS had used force in an unacceptable manner to the international community. Furthermore, the report confirms that GSS personnel had lied under oath about their activities?

Did you know that between 1987 and 1994, the GSS interrogated some 23,000 Palestinians?

Did you know that torture methods used by the GSS include the following: Al-Shabeh(shackling the detainee to a small chair or a wall, while covering the head with a sack that reeks of vomit and urine), suffocation, food deprivation, sleep deprivation and restriction of toilet facilities, beatings, “The Cupboard” treatment, pulling hair off the body, electric shocks and burning, threats, including death threats and violent shaking?

Did you know that after decades of war and on-going military occupation, Palestinians in the OPT have been left with thousands of antipersonnel and antitank landmines, and unexploded munitions remnants on their lands?

Did you know that in the year 2000 most severe closure of schools was in the city of Hebron, in the village of Hawwara near Nablus, where the Israeli army imposed curfew for more than 30 days. Four schools in Hebron were taken over by the Israeli army and were used as army posts. At least 15 schools were severely hit by Israeli shooting or shelling in different areas of the West Bank and Gaza. Physical losses were roughly estimated at around US$ 400,000?

Did you know that as a result of Israeli army roadblocks, siege, closure and curfews, numerous teachers and pupils could not reach their schools that were in operation. The percentage of teachers who could not report to their work locations varied between 10% and 90%, depending on the location of their schools?

Did you know that the deployment of new Israeli military roadblocks, which cut off Palestinian areas from Israel as well as from each other, have prevented the flow of goods, services, and workers between Palestinian towns and villages, with great and long-term losses in Palestinian economic life?

Did you know that the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank (including east Jerusalem) began in 1967 as a means of controlling and annexing Palestinian land occupied during the “1967 War” ?

Did you know that the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank (including east Jerusalem) began in 1967 as a means of controlling and annexing Palestinian land occupied during the “1967 War.” ?

Did you know that the “Expansion” of existing settlements is a policy adopted by the Israeli government. These expansions are in many cases larger than the settlements themselves. Expansions take place on confiscated Palestinian land?

Did you know that the very existence of Israeli settlements is a direct violation of internationally binding agreements and regulations; international humanitarian law explicitly prohibits the occupying state to make permanent changes that are not, in the first place, intended to benefit the population of the occupied?

Did you know that Israel has been neglecting the environmental effects that are imposed by the settlements on neighboring Palestinian communities. Most of the settlements have not developed sewage treatment plants; which implies that sewage is often allowed to run into the valleys, threatening neighboring Palestinian towns and villages in terms of agriculture and health?

Did you know that the deployment of new Israeli military roadblocks, which cut off Palestinian areas from Israel as well as from each other, have prevented the flow of goods, services, and workers between Palestinian towns and villages, with great and long-term losses in Palestinian economic life?

Did you know that Israel has created different building regulations for Palestinians and Israelis. These regulations are clearly biased towards the interests of the latter. The frequent refusal of Israeli authorities to grant construction permits to Palestinians who wish to build on privately owned land has left the latter with no choice but to take extreme risks in building regardless of Israeli approval. Sweeping Israeli bulldozers often follow such risks?

Did you know that since 1967, the Israeli authorities have confiscated large areas of Palestinian land in east Jerusalem as green areas only to be changed later as yellow areas for exclusive Jewish use. The settlements of Neve Ya’cub, Pisgat Zeiv, Ma’ale Adumim, Gilo, the French Hill, Giva’at Shabira and Har Homa are all built on land previously classified by the Israeli authorities as “ Green Zones”?

Did you know that the discovery of archeological sites doesn’t stop Israeli colonialist activities as long as the discovered places are non- Jewish. This policy is very well manifested in Rachis Shu’fat colony where Canaanite, Roman, Byzantine and Islamic excavations have been discovered. Nevertheless, Israeli bulldozers continued to destroy these sites to make room for new Jewish construction?

Did you know that the Fourth Geneva Convention, ratified by Israel in June 1951, prohibits the deportation or forcible transfer of Palestinians, whether to another country, to Israel or to t Occupied Gaza?

Did you know that the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court of 1998 classifies deportations and forcible transfers as "crimes against humanity" and "war crimes"?

Did you know that the EU statement issued (2002) has came to a conclusion that the Palestinian curricula is free from racist remarks and that all allegations against it are unfounded?

Did you know that in 1986, Israel confiscated 1,362 dunums of Jayyus town lands. The illegal Israeli colony of Zufin was built on the town’s confiscated lands?

Did you know that in 1990, Israel confiscated 30 dunums of Jayyus town land. It is now being used as a dump site for the nearby Israeli colonies?

Did you know that the Israeli Army has built a militarily-fortified barrier 6 kilometers east of the Green Line, currently the furthest point into Occupied Palestinian Territory of the first phase of the wall?

Did you know that the wall has been built between Jayyus homes and Jayyus farmland, thereby separating Jayyus farmers from their fields?

Did you know that approximately 9,000 dunums of agricultural land are separated from their owners, of which 2,500 dunums are irrigated crop lands on the other side of the wall. These irrigated crops provide 90% of the Jayyus’s total economic revenue?

Did you know that the wall separate Jayyus farmers from 120 greenhouses, 15,000 olive trees and 50,000 citrus trees. This area annually produces 17 million kilograms of vegetables and fruits?

Did you know that all seven of the Jayyus’s water wells are behind the wall. As a result, the town receives running water only two hours every three days, with an average per capita water consumption of 20 liters per day, five times below the World Health Organization’s daily per capita minimum health standard of 100 liters per day?

Did you know that due to the wall and the accompanying travel restrictions, Jayyus residents are denied basic services, such as access to medical care located outside Jayyus?

Did you know that in 1983, Israel confiscated approximately 125 dunums of Daba’s land for the construction of the illegal Israeli colony of Alfe Menashe. The colony’s residents enjoy running water and electricity, while the Palestinian residents of Daba rely upon water shipments and generators?

Did you know that the Israeli Army has constructed a militarily-fortified barrier, situated 40 meters away from the homes in Daba. The residents of Daba, like those in 15 other communities, are trapped west of the wall, while their farmlands are east of the wall?

Did you know that the construction of the wall has involved the use of explosives, and, owing to the immediate proximity of the blasting, has damaged 15 homes in Daba’ and Daba’s school?

Did you know that approximately 250 dunums (more than 10% of the Daba’s land) have been confiscated for construction of the wall?

Did you know that both entrances to Daba’ village are now gated. After a peaceful demonstration on August 15, 2003 , Israeli occupation authorities refused to open the gates for four days. Israeli occupation authorities have refused to open the gates for up to a week at a time?

Did you know that water trucks that currently provide the only source of drinking water for Daba’s residents, will be unable to enter the town if the Israeli Army refuses to open the village gates?

Did you know that the area is already slated to be a “closed military zone” whose fate will be unknown. No individuals or goods will be allowed to enter Daba without a permit from the Israeli occupation authorities?

Did you know that Israel has already announced that it intends to use Daba’s area to build additional colonies, namely Karni’el and Elonit, and to expand the existing illegal Israeli colony of Alfe Menashe. On January 26, 2003 , a military order to confiscate land for a new 22 meter wide road in the area was issued. It is assumed that the new road currently under construction will be for the benefit of settlers in Karne Shomron?

Did you know that the town of Zayta originally extended into what is now Israel. In 1948, most of the town’s agricultural lands were seized by Israel. The Israeli town of Maggal and parts of Hadera are now situated on Zayta’s land?

Did you know that following Israel’s military occupation in 1967, 68 homes, a school and a medical clinic were destroyed by the Israeli Army in Zayta. Many of the town’s residents fled and they have never been allowed to return?

Did you know that the Israeli Army has built a militarily-fortified barrier that has separated the northern and southern agricultural sections of Zayat from the town’s center, Of the 875 dunums of land that are isolated west of the wall, 443 dunums of agricultural land have been confiscated by Israel, in what the Israeli Army terms a “ border correction ." More than 500 of Zayta’s residents have lost their land and means of livelihood?

Did you know that more than 6,000 of Zayta’s olive trees have been uprooted to build the wall?

Did you know that Zayta’s homes situated within 35 meters of the wall (what Israel terms a “buffer zone”) are at risk of demolition?

Did you know that settlers living in the neighboring illegal Israeli colony of Sha’are Tiqva will have complete freedom of movement to and from Israel, while the Palestinians will be militarily caged into the Palestinian town Azzun Atma , unable to travel throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territories or even visit neighboring villages?

Did you know that 25 Palestinian homeowners have been forced to stop building their homes in order to create the wall?

Did you know that part of the Azzun Atma’s high school (constructed in 1964) will be destroyed to create the wall?

Did you know that 33 of the 36 schoolteachers will be denied the ability to enter Azzun Atma, thereby impacting the education of the village’s schoolchildren?

Did you know that nine homes, housing 49 Palestinians, will be outside of the wall and will be completely isolated from the remainder of Azzun Atma, thereby separating families and denying the children the ability to attend school?

Did you know that settlements currently take up 1.6% of total land in the West Bank. Together with the road network which services the settlements, the settlers and their settlements control an effective 46% of West Bank land?

Did you know that when the PLO accepted the Oslo Peace Accords, they agreed to the establishment of a Palestinian state on 22% of historic Palestine. Of this 22%, under 18% is now controlled by the Palestinian people?

Did you know that Phase I of the Road Map requires that Israel “immediately dismantles settlement outposts erected since March 2001.” The word “unauthorized” does not appear in the Road Map text and its unilateral insertion by Israel is intended to allow Israel to remove only those settlement outposts that it, in its sole discretion, deems “unauthorized”. Peace Now estimates that there are 62 settlement outposts erected since March 2001. US officials estimate as many as 100 such outposts?

Did you know that there are more than 160 illegal settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, housing more than 400,000 settlers (nearly half of whom reside in Occupied East Jerusalem)?

Did you know that the EU statement issued (2002) has came to a conclusion that the Palestinian curricula is free from racist remarks and that all allegations against it are unfounded?

Did you know that Palestinian home demolition continues to be one of the harshest Israeli occupation policies against the Palestinian people. Since June 1967, Israel has demolished more than 6000 Palestinian homes in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, and more than 2,500 in occupied east Jerusalem. It is estimated that, since the first Intifada of 1987, Israel has made more than 16,000 Palestinians completely homeless?

Did you know that the wall will not be on Israel’s border (the Green Line), but will surround Qalqilia on 3 sides on land clearly within the Occupied West Bank?

Did you know that the wall is not being built on Israel’s border but rather well within Occupied Palestinian Territory, thereby de facto annexing Palestinian land and ensuring that Israel’s colonies remain. It is estimated that approximately 45% of the Occupied West Bank (containing approximately 94% of the illegal Israeli settlers) will be de facto annexed by Israel?

Did you know that it is estimated that when the wall is complete, approximately 380,000 Palestinians will be trapped between the wall and Israel’s 1967 pre-occupation border (the “Green Line”), 160,000 of whom will be trapped in “double-walled” ghettos or enclaves?

Did you know that the wall takes many forms. In some areas (notably around the Palestinian town of Qalqilya) the wall is an eight-meter high wall of solid concrete (twice the height of the Berlin Wall) with armed watch towers positioned every 200 meters. In other areas, the wall is a barrier comprised of trenches (up to four meters deep), electrified fences, razor wire and military roads. There is also a 30-100 meter wide “buffer zone” east of the wall with electric fences, trenches, sensors and military patrol roads?

Did you know whether it is called a “wall”, “barrier” or “fence” is irrelevant because the effect is the same: Israeli de facto confiscation of Palestinian agricultural land, forced impoverishment of Palestinian communities and a coercion of Palestinians to abandon their property?

Did you know that Israel has long used the façade of “security” for the continued colonization of Palestinian land, and the notion of a “security” wall neatly fits into Israel’s long-term goal of annexing as much Palestinian land as possible with as few Palestinians as possible?

Did you know that Israel is attempting to annex parts of the Occupied Palestinian Territories by establishing militarily-enforced Palestinian ghettos corresponding to the Palestinian population centers, while continuing its illegal colonization policy? It is estimated that the wall, when complete, will ensure that approximately 94% of the Israeli settler population remains in the Occupied West Bank, with approximately 60% of the colonies also remaining. At the same time, the wall will ensure that Palestinians are denied the ability to move, while Israeli settlers will be able to freely travel throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territories?

Did you know that Israel’s ultimate goal is to make life so difficult for Palestinians – through the loss of land, loss of water resources, demolition of homes and markets, restrictions on movement and access to health and education – that the Palestinians will eventually leave. Once complete, the wall will leave less than 13% of historic Palestine for the indigenous Palestinian population?

Did you know that defining measures as “temporary” is a strategy often used by Israel to justify illegal actions which become permanent. In 1967, when Israel began violating the Fourth Geneva Convention through the construction of illegal Israeli colonies in Occupied Palestinian Territory, Israel claimed the colonies were a “temporary” security measure. More than 36 years later, these colonies have not only become permanent but continue to expand. Israel has never dismantled any of these “temporary” colonies and there are now approximately 370,000 settlers living illegally in the Occupied Palestinian Territories?

Did you know that Israel’s estimated investment of US$2 million per kilometer indicates that the wall is intended to be permanent?

Did you know that if Israel really wanted to facilitate access of Palestinian farmers to their land, the wall would have been built on the other side of the farmland, not between the farmers and their land?

Did you know that with a population of approximately 1.2 million Palestinians, and a land mass of approximately 365 km2, the Gaza Strip is among the most densely populated areas in the world. Since 1994, a wall has been in place around the Gaza Strip, cutting off the Strip’s Palestinian residents from the rest of the world. Palestinians from the Gaza Strip are unable to leave the Strip unless they obtain Israel’s permission to do so, whereas Israeli settlers living illegally in the Strip have complete freedom of movement?

Did you know that the wall surrounding the Occupied Gaza Strip is different from that currently being built in the Occupied West Bank: the wall around the Gaza Strip was built on the Green Line and, unlike the wall built in the Occupied West Bank, does not separate Palestinians from their lands or from one another?

Did you know that even without building the eastern portion of the wall, Israel is still able to pursue its policy of caging in Palestinian population centers. With the exception of Jericho, itself surrounded by trenches and Israeli soldiers, the Jordan Valley is not densely populated and some of the villages that do exist there have received demolition orders for mosques, homes and schools. Consequently, by restricted Palestinian freedom of movement into the Jordan Valley through currently existing road blocks, curfews and other travel restrictions, Israel can still effectively cage in the Palestinian population while effectively annexing the Jordan Valley?

Did you know that in some places, such as Qalqilya, checkpoints have been moved further into Occupied Palestinian Territory with Palestinians requiring permits to “enter Israel” if they want to visit those areas beyond the checkpoint (yet still within Occupied Palestinian Territory). Additionally, some Palestinian landowners have received expropriation orders in which Israel claims that it will “correct the border.” Thus, while Israel has not passed annexation laws, it has nevertheless de facto annexed Palestinian land in violation of international law?

Did you know that despite the fact that Israel’s “security” wall violates international law and the Oslo Agreements, the international community has taken no action to comply with its obligation to enforce the Fourth Geneva Convention thereby teaching Israel that it is above the law?

Did you know that since April 30, 2003, Israel has issued tenders for the construction of approximately 1,624 housing units in the Occupied West Bank and an additional 22 housing units in the Occupied Gaza Strip. These units are in addition to the 133 housing tenders issued from January to April 2003?

Did you know that construction of Colony Outposts Continues. According to Peace Now, although the number of outposts has decreased by four (there are approximately 96 remaining outposts), outposts continue to be erected. These new outposts are generally larger in size, larger in population and have greater infrastructure accorded to them (i.e. electricity, water, sewage)?

Did you know that following Israel’s occupation of the West Bank in June 1967, Israel unilaterally expanded the borders of Jerusalem, incorporating 64 square kilometers of Occupied Palestinian Territory (also referred to as “East Jerusalem”) into a newly expanded “Jerusalem municipality?” The territory incorporated amounted to 1.1% of the Occupied West Bank. The expansion was internationally condemned as a violation of the international prohibition against acquiring territory by force. The borders were drawn in such a way as to incorporate undeveloped Palestinian land for future Israeli colonies, while leaving Palestinian population centers outside the new borders?

Did you know that the land illegally incorporated into the Jerusalem municipality was used to build illegal Israeli colonies in an attempt to change the demographic make-up of the area. There are now 12 illegal Israeli colonies in Israeli-Occupied East Jerusalem, with approximately 170,000 Israeli settlers (representing almost half of the Israeli settlers in the Occupied Palestinian Territories)?

Did you know that in 1980, Israel passed the Basic Law on Jerusalem by which it extended Israel’s jurisdiction to Israeli-Occupied East Jerusalem. The attempted annexation was internationally condemned and declared of “no legal validity” by the United Nations Security Council?

Did you know that there are 19 Palestinian neighborhoods within the Jerusalem municipality, with a total Palestinian population of 249,000. These Palestinians are forced to have residency cards to live in their own city. Israel requires Palestinian (but not Israeli) residents of East Jerusalem to regularly prove that Jerusalem is their “center of life.” If Palestinian residents of Jerusalem live, study or work outside of Jerusalem, they risk losing their residency rights. To date, almost 7,000 Palestinian residents of Jerusalem have lost their residency rights?

Did you know that an additional 24 Palestinian neighborhoods (in the Occupied West Bank) surround East Jerusalem. These neighborhoods are dependent upon the facilities of Occupied East Jerusalem, including six specialized hospitals and two universities?

Did you know that since 1993, Israel has denied Palestinians free access to East Jerusalem? Non-Jerusalemite Palestinians wishing to visit East Jerusalem must obtain a temporary permit rarely granted by Israel. As a result, three million Christian and Muslim Palestinians have been denied access to their holy sites in Jerusalem, even during religious holidays?

Did you know that Israel continues to expand the colonies and the colony infrastructure around the Jerusalem area?

Did you know that Israel is building a wall on the north, south and east sides of Israeli-Occupied East Jerusalem? When completed, the wall will be more than 40 kilometers long?

Did you know that the northern part of the wall enclosing Jerusalem is currently approximately 8 kilometers long and 40-100 meters wide, with an electrified fence, electronic sensors, watchtowers and buffer zones. Israel has confiscated 800 dunum of land for the wall’s construction, 500 of which will be isolated south of the wall and 300 dunums used for the “buffer zone.”?

Did you know that the wall enclosing Jerusalem has been built up to 6 kilometers north of the Green Line?

Did you know that outbreaks of disturbances occurred in Jaffa on the 1st of May 1921 in response to Zionist mass immigration. The riots soon spread to other places leaving dozens of people dead and hundreds injured?

Did you know that on the 20th of August 1922 ,the 5th Palestinian National congress convenes in Nablus. In assessing Churchill’s White Paper, the approval of the mandate system for Palestine by the League of Nations, and the incorporation of the Balfour Declaration into the mandate system; the conferees agree to an economic boycott of Zionists?

Did you know that on the 19th of April 1923, An-Nahda, the first Palestinian women’s economic society was founded, stressing self-sustaining projects?

Did you know that on the 20th of September 1923, British mandate for Palestine came officially into force?

Did you know that on the 8th of June 1924 a Palestinian journalist’s congress was held in Haifa, which included calling for the formation of a journalist trade union?

Did you know that early in 1925, Khalil Sakakini found the Waraniyya School in Jerusalem?

Did you know that on the 21st of March 1925, and based on the Ottoman societies Law, the Palestinian Arab Workers Society (PAWS) was established in Haifa as a moderate trade union movement?

Did you know that early on 1927, the Palestinian Archaeological Museum was built?

Did you know that on the 28th of September 1927, the first municipal elections since the mandate begun were held, Raghed Nashashibi was elected mayor of Jerusalem?

Did you know that on May 1927, mayor of Jaffa Abul Ra’ouf Bitar founded The Palestinian Free Party that aimed to defend all aspects of personal freedom?

Did you know that early on 1928, the British Mandatory authority issued the “Settlement of Land Ownership Rights Law” which it was then able to seize land that belonged to Arab tribes and families and hand them over to the Zionist movement?

Did you know that on the 15th of August 1929, a group of Jews demonstrated outside the Mandatory offices before provocatively marching through the Muslim quarter to the Western Wall, waving flags and singing patriotic Zionist songs?

Did you know that on the 29th of October 1929, the first Arab Woman’s Union in Palestine was founded in Jerusalem, headed by Zalikha Ash-Shihabi?

Did you know that on the 14th of November 1929, Palestinians merchants held a congress in Haifa protesting the trade protectionism of Zionist good like cement and other items, and decided to establish a development company to promote commerce and agriculture?

Did you know that on the 21st of May 1929, Abdul Hamid Shoman founded the Arab Bank in Jerusalem, which began business on the 21st of July and soon after established branches in all major towns in Palestine and neighboring Arab countries?

Did you know that on the 17th of July 1930, British authorities executed Palestinian resistance activists Ata Ahmad Az-Zir, Mohammed Jamjum and Fu’ad Hijazi at Akka prison?

Did you know that on the 19th of May 1931, the British issued an order (publicized 8 June) stating that Al-Buraq or the Western Wall in unquestionably and solely Muslim property and is an integral part of the Haram Ash-Sharif including the pavement infront of it. However Jewish worshippers were granted free access?

Did you know on the spring of 1931 some 31 Jewish families moved to Hebron but were later evacuated by the British authorities in April 1936 when the Arab-Jewish tensions rose?

Did you know that on the 31st of April an Arab National Society, with 180 members, was established in Nablus replacing the Muslim-Christian Society?

Did you know that on the 18th of November 1931, second British census of Palestine showed a total population of 1,035,154 which included 16.9% Jews while the rest were Muslims and Christians?

• Did you know that since 1967, every Israeli government has significantly expanded settlements; both in area and population, in the Occupied Palestinian territories by providing political, organizational and economic support, and encouraged their continual expansion?

Did you know that since Israel’s 1967 occupation it has either confiscated or declared as closed areas over 55% of the West Bank and 25% of Gaza, thereby placing those areas out of Palestinian reach?

Did you know that more than 70,000 acres of land have been confiscated since the signing of the Declaration of Principles in 1993, and up till august 2001?

Did you know that the area occupied by the settlements in the West Bank doubled in the seven years between 1992 and 1999, the period that witnessed the Oslo Accords?

Did you know that the Hague Regulations prohibit the occupying power to undertake permanent changes in the occupied area, unless these are due to military needs in the narrow sense of the term, or unless they are undertaken for the benefit of the local population?

Did you know that Israeli settlements violate United Nations Security Council Resolutions 452 (1979) calling upon “the Government and people of Israel to cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction and planning of settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem.”

Did you know that the water consumption of the population of the Israeli settlements in the Jordan Valley (a population of less than 5,000) is equivalent to seventy-five percent of the water consumption of the entire Palestinian population of the West Bank (approximately two million people) for domestic and urban uses?

Did you know that an Israeli settler population of approximately 6,500 controls more than 20% of the Gaza Strip’s territory and has full freedom of movement, while Gaza’s Palestinian population of more than 1,100,000 is subjected to checkpoints, curfews and military invasions?

Did you know that aerial surveys show that since the Sharon government was established in February 2001, at least 56 new outposts have been established in the West Bank, most of them approximately 700 m away from an existing settlement?

Did you know that the establishment of settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories constitutes a war crime. According to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court of 1998 (Article 8(b)(viii)), “the transfer directly or indirectly by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies” is a War Crime indictable by the International Criminal Court?

Did you know that 674,000 approximately 30% of Palestinians in the West Bank will be directly harmed by the Separation Wall currently being built by Israel on mostly Palestinian occupied territory?

Did you know that the Israeli Separation Wall will annex 45% of the West Bank, isolating Palestinian communities into cantons, enclaves and “military zones,” leaving all Palestinians to live on 12% of historical Palestine?

Did you know that the Israeli Separation Wall will leave 16% of Palestinians outside the Israeli Separation Wall, including 200,000 east Jerusalem residents, who will be totally isolated from the rest of the West Bank?

Did you know that the Israeli Separation Wall will leave around 280,000 Palestinians living in 122 villages and towns in closed areas between the wall and the Green Line, thus completely surrounding them by the wall?

Did you know that the Israeli Separation Wall will leave around 160,000 Palestinians living in hermetically sealed enclaves?

Did you know that the Israeli Separation Wall will leave 400,000 Palestinians living east of the wall but unable to get their farms, effectively eliminating their livelihoods?

Did you know that Palestinians must apply for permits to access their own land lying behind the Israeli Separation Wall, and that of the 1200 farmers who applied for permits in 2003 only 300 permits were issued (25% of which were issued to dead or absent Palestinians)?

Did you know that 54 Israeli illegal settlements containing 142,000 settlers will fall in the area between the Israeli Separation Wall and the Green Line?

Did you know that the majority of the Israeli settlers will live within the same zone of the Israeli Separation Wall as the Palestinians for whom the wall was designed to separate?

Did you know that unlike the Palestinians living in the ‘closed zone’ between the Israeli Separation Wall and the Green Line, Israeli settlers will be able to legally cross to the other side of the wall, courtesy of their exclusive Israeli government built by-pass roads?

Did you know that only 11% of the Israeli Separation Wall’s length runs along the 1949 Armistice Line, also know as the Green Line?

Did you know that the Israeli Separation Wall not only runs inside the Green Line but folds in on itself to create 12 separate enclaves, areas where people will be completely surrounded by the wall?

Did you know that Israeli Separation Wall extends up to 22.5 KM (14miles) east of the Green Line at some places in order to annex the large illegal settlements in the heart of the West Bank such as the settlements of Ariel and Qedumim?

Did you know that the Israeli Separation Wall is eight meters high with armed watchtowers and “buffer zones” 30-100 meters wide for electric fences, trenches, cameras, sensors and military patrolling?

Did you know that the Hague Regulations and Fourth Geneva Convention prohibit collective punishment, and acts of aggression against the resident population of occupied territories, and that additionally an occupying force is obligated to ensure that safety and dignity of the resident population is sustained while protecting their private property?

Did you know that the Israeli Separation Wall has in its first phase alone of construction uprooted over 100,000 trees, destroyed over 35,000 meters of irrigation networks and damaged 11,400 dunums (2850 acres) of agricultural land?

Did you know that around 4.300 homes and businesses were demolished in just the first stage of the construction of the Israeli Separation Wall?

Did you know that around 70% of government clinics are isolated by the Israeli Separation Wall, and around 15% of NGO clinics in addition to around 11.5% of UNRWA clinics?

Did you know that around 75% of teachers trapped on the west side of the Israeli Separation Wall are finding difficulties arriving at schools and universities while around 45% of teachers living on the eastern side have reported these same difficulties?

Did you know that due to the Israeli Separation Wall around 51% of Palestinian students are forced to find alternative and often dangerous roads in order to make it to their schools and universities, while close to 8% are changing schools?

Did you know that around 40% of university and school students have been absent due to closures in areas close to the Green Line?

Did you know that Israel has confiscated over 36 groundwater wells, at least 14 other wells risk demolition in the wall’s “buffer zone”, and another 31 artesian wells will be isolated?

Did you know that homes situated within 35 meters of the Israeli Separation Wall (what Israel terms a “buffer zone”) are at risk of demolition?

Did you know that more than 160 Israeli military checkpoints chop up the roads between Palestinian cities?

Did you know that during and after the establishment of Israel, almost 800,000 Palestinian refugees were created by a process of ethnic cleansing and that these refugees and their descendants are the largest and most persistent refugee population in the world?

Did you know that the 3.7 million Palestinian refugees registered by the United Nations, in addition to other 2 million unregistered refugees live largely in countries and regions within a very short distance of their original homes and lands?

Did you know that the Right to Return is solidly and legally basis by UN’s Resolution #194 adopted on December 11, 1948, which states: "...the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date... compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return”?

Did you know that UN Resolution 194, securing the Right of Return for Palestinian refugees displaced and uprooted since 1948, was affirmed practically every year since with a universal consensus, except for Israel and the U.S.?

Did you know that Israel's admission to the UN was conditional on its acceptance of UN resolutions including 194, which secures the Right to Return for Palestinian refugees displaced and uprooted, and that Israel has so far been incompliant?

According to a 1999 report by Amnesty International, Israel has destroyed 2650 Palestinian houses in the West Bank, including east Jerusalem, since 1987 on the pretext of not having building permission. Further, thousands of acres of Palestinian owned-land have been confiscated to build settlements in these occupied territories.

Did you know that Israeli settlements on Palestinian territories contravene the 4th Geneva Convention Article 49 which states that the "Occupying Power shall not transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies"?

Did you know the Israeli Separation Wall is twice the height of the former Berlin Wall and could end up 30 times as long?

Did you know that on the 25th of February 1933, the British High commissioner in Palestine Sir Arthur Wauchope rejected Arab demands to make the sale of the Arab lands to the Jews illegal?

Did you know that on the 13th of October 1933, protest riots against Jewish immigration and British pro-Zionist policies broke out in Jerusalem and were dispersed by force leading the organizers to call for a similar protest two weeks later in Jaffa?

Did you know that on the 27th of October 1933, over 7,000 Palestinian demonstrators and several Syrian and Transjordan delegates protested Zionist immigration, during the clashes with the British police, 12 demonstrators were killed and 78 were wounded?

Did you know that on the 25th of December 1934 , the chimes of the Nativity church in Bethlehem were broadcasted to London and other parts of the world for the first time?

Did you know that on the 10th of May 1935, the 2nd Palestinian Youth congress convened in Haifa with over 1,000 participants, were ways to improve the socio-economic life and increasing the efficiency of the youth in resisting Zionism were discussed?

Did you know that on July 1935, Arab party leader Jamal Husseini complained that while Jews have their own educational facilities, 75% of the Palestine’s Arabs remain illiterate and demanded an increase in the education budget and efficiency?

Did you know that on the 5th of October 1935, the National Bloc which is a moderate party calling for political independence of Palestine was formed?

Did you know that on the 16 of October 1935, a large shipment of arms and ammunition was smuggled by Zionists but seized at Jaffa port, which lead to raising tension between Arabs and Jews throughout Palestine?

Did you know that on the 1st of April 1936, Palestine broadcasting service was inaugurated?

Did you know that from the 16-18th of April 1936, Arab-Jewish clashes all over Palestine flared into a widespread uprising, marking the beginning of the “Great Arab Revolt”?

Did you know that on the 19th of April 1936, the Arab Higher Committee declared a national strike in support of three basic demands: an end to the Jewish immigration, an end to land sales to Jews and the establishment of an Arab national government.Following the outbreak of riots, the British declared the Arab Higher Committee illegal?

Did you know that from the 18-21st of June 1936, British demolished the Arab Hourani Quarter of Jaffa, and much of the old city?

Did you know that early in 1937, a speech made by David Ben-Gurion, the prime minister of Israel upon its foundation in 1948 stated: “let us not ignore the truth among ourselves… politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves…the country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country”?

Did you know that on the 18th of March 1937, Irgun Zvei Leumi Zionist organization members threw two bombs into Arab cafes, and killed one Palestinian and wounded atleast 20?

Did you know that on the 1st of October 1937, the British Authorities issued an official statement proclaiming the Arab Higher Committee and all national committees “unlawful associations”?

Did you know that on the 11th of November 1937, Irgun Zvei Leumi Zionist organization members threw a bomb that killed one Palestinian and wounded three?

Did you know that on the 8th of January 1937, and during Peel commission (Royal commission) hearings, Commissioner Reginald Coupland suggested to Weizmann that Palestine be divided into two parts, Arab and Jewish, Weizmann endorsed that option?

Did you know that on the 7th of July 1937, the report of the Palestine Royal commission was published. It concluded that the mandate in Palestine in unworkable, and that there was no hope of any cooperative national entity comprising Arabs and Jews and that both sides cannot live in peace together in one state, conclusively, it suggested the partition of Palestine into two states. One Jewish and one Arab?

Did you know that on the 23rd of July 1937, the Arab Higher Committee rejected the Peel commission’s proposal and demanded an independent Palestine were British interests as well as the “legitimate Jewish and other minority rights” would be safeguarded?

Did you know that on the 1st of October 1937, British mandate government dissolved the Arab Higher Committee and all national committees, declared them illegal and arrested numerous numbers of their members?

Did you know that from the 4th -15th of July 1938, bombs planted and thrown by the Irgun Zvei Leumi Zionist organization killed 20 and injured over 66 Palestinians?

Did you know that on the 17th of March 1939, the McDonald White Paper’s proposal on limitations to Zionist immigration and power sharing independent Palestinian rule were met with strong opposition from both Palestinians and Jews; the former rejected the paper’s attempt to undermine Arab Palestinian rights to sovereignty and government in proportion to population, the latter rejected the attempt to stem the flood of immigrants by limiting number s to the maximum of 75,000 Jews over the next five years?

Did you know that on the 28th of February 1940, the British mandate authorities issued the “Land Transfers Regulations” provided for in the 1939 White paper, which protected Palestinian land rights by restricting official Jewish acquisitions to certain areas (de facto sales continue). It divided Palestine into three zones, Zone “A” in which the transfer of land save to a Palestinian Arab is prohibited, Zone “B” in which the transfer of land by a Palestinian Arab save to a Palestinian Arab is prohibited, “Free” Zone in which no restriction is imposed?

Did you know that on the 10th of October 1940, British government authorized the Jewish Agency to recruit 10,000 Jews to form Jewish units within the British army?

Did you know that on December 1941, British authorities arrested Yitzhak Shamir for “terrorism and collaboration with the Nazi enemy”?

Did you know that on the beginning of 1942, woman’s solidarity Associations founded in various Palestinian cities active in emergency services, nursing, resisted the British and Jewish settlers?

Did you know that on the 27th of May 1942, the British Palestine Police became a military force and took up duties in the defense of Palestine?

Did you know that toward the end of the year the British Mandatory demographic survey was carried out, showing the total population to be 1,739 million, 1,062,277 being Muslim, 135,547 being Christian , 528,702 being Jewish and 14,098 belonging to other ethnic groups?

Did you know that on the 23 of March 1944, eight British policemen were killed in Haifa, Jaffa, Tel Aviv and Jerusalem by Zionist militants?

Did you know that on May 1945, the Jewish Agency formally presented its demands to the British government, including immediate decision to establish Palestine as a Jewish state; authority to bring to Palestine as many Jews as possible to settle; financial help for the transfer of the first million Jews to Palestine; that German reparation be granted the Jewish people for the rebuilding of Palestine and provision of international facilities for the exit and transit of Jews who wish to settle in Palestine?

Did you know that on the 31h of October 1945, Jewish forces attacked a British detention camp and freed hundreds of illegal Jewish immigrants; the Palestinian railroads lines were cut in over 150 places; British suspect combined operation by Haganah, Irgun, and stern Gang?

Did you know that on the 22nd of July 1946, members of the Stern Gang blew up the king David Hotel in Jerusalem, Part of which houses several government departments. Over 90 people were killed, about one third of them Jewish?

Did you know that on February 1946, Palestinians strike in protest against British decision to allow Zionist mass immigration to continue at rate of 1,500 per month in spite of exhaustion of 1939 White paper quota?

Did you know that on February 1946, Palestinians strike in protest against British decision to allow Zionist mass immigration to continue at rate of 1,500 per month in spite of exhaustion of 1939 White paper quota?

Did you know that on the 20th of April 1946, the Anglo-American commission of inquiry on Palestine published its first report, recommending a UN trusteeship?

Did you know that on the 24th of July 1946, British issued special White paper on “Terrorism in Palestine” accusing the Jewish Agency of involvement in acts of “terrorism” with Irgun and Stern Gangs?

Did you know that on the 29th of October 1946, inner Zionist council declared that only the establishment of a Jewish State can solve the twin problems of the Jewish people in Palestine?

Did you know that on the 13th of December 1947, Irgun Zionist group carried out raids on Palestinian residential areas in Jerusalem including throwing bombs into the Arab market near Damascus Gate, killing several?

Did you know that on the 12th of January 1947, a car bomb driven by Irgunists into British administrative headquarters in Haifa killed two British and two Palestinian policemen and injured more than 100 persons?

Did you know that on the 29th of September 1947, the Arab Higher committee refused to appear before the UNSCOP commission and rejected the UN partition plan, saying not partition but the end of the British mandate over Palestine and the recognition of Palestine as an independent state must be the issue at hand?

Did you know that on the 11th of December 1947, two bombs killed 18 Arabs in Haifa Area, Ben Gurion was persuaded that the residents of Jaffa and Haifa can be starved out?

Did you know that on the 12th of December 1947, Irgun Zionist group carried out a bombing on AT-Tira village south of Haifa, killing atleast 14 villagers, the village was exposed to smaller assaults in the following weeks?

Did you know that on the 19th of December 1947, Haganah carried out an attack on the village of Salama near Jaffa and the village of Khisas (Safad district), blowing up two houses and killing 10 Palestinians?

Did you know that on the 21st of December 1947, the Arab residents of Khirbat Azzun on the coastal plain fled their homes from fear of further Jewish attacks?

Did you know that on the 27th -28th of December 1947, the Haganah and members of the Stern Gang, armed with automatic weapons and grenades, attacked Lifta. Atleast seven Arabs were killed and dozens wounded, most of the residents fled after the attack, the remaining were evacuated after subsequent attacks by the Haganah, Stern Gang and Irgun Zvei Leumi?

Did you know that on the 1st of January 1948, Jewish troops attacked Ash-Sheikh and Hawasseh Villages near Haifa, killing atleast 17 Arabs?

Did you know that the on the 1st of January 1948, Irgun members wearing British Army uniforms bombed the Grand Serai (the old Turkish government House) in Jaffa, killing over 40 and injuring some 100 Palestinian civilians? The building had been used as headquarters of the Arab National Committee.

Did you know that on the 7th of January 1948, many Arab residents of areas near Tel-Aviv and Haifa fled, fearing attacks by Jewish forces?

Did you know that on the 18th of January 1948, Haganah attacked the villages of Shafa

[Geezah]

Did you know that on the 14th of January 1948, Haganah attacked village of Sa’sa (Safad district), blowing up 14 homes and killing 14 Palestinians?

Did you know that on the 27th of February 1948, The Jewish Agency announced that it will establish a state even without backing of an international force?

Did you know that on the 14th of March 1948, Haganah attacked Faluja village near Gaza. Killing 37 villagers and destroying numerous buildings?

Did you know that on the 19th of March 1948, Ben-Gurion declared Jewish State dependent not on UN partition plan, but on Jewish military preponderance?

Did you know that on the 22nd of March 1948, a car bomb left by Stern Gang members dressed in British army uniforms exploded on Iraq street in Haifa, causing the death of 23 Palestinians and injuring 100 more?

Did you know that on the 30th of March 1948, Haganah bridges carried out a second coastal operation aiming at the expulsion of Palestinian communities from Haifa to Jaffa prior to British withdrawal?

Did you know that on the 31st of March 1948, Haganah completed the demolition of Abu Kabir, a village near Jaffa?

Did you know that on the 31st of March 1948, Zionists blew up, for the second time, the Cairo-Haifa Express, killing 40 people and injuring 61?

Did you know that on the 3rd of April 1948, “Operation Nahshon” was launched to destroy all Arab towns between Hulda and Jerusalem and expel the inhabitants ( began actually on April 6) ?

Did you know that on the 6th of April 1948, Haganah began officially with operation Nahshon that aimed to link Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem by opening the corridor road between them?

Did you know that on the 12th of April 1948, General Zionist council resolved to establish independent Jewish State in Palestine on the 16th of May?

Did you know that on the 15th of April 1948, Haganah officers ordered the inhabitants of Miska (near the city of Tulkarm) to leave their village?

Did you know that on the 16th of April 1948, Zionists attacked the former British army camp at Tel Litvinsky, killing 90 Arabs?

Did you know that on the 19th of April 1948, 14 Arabs were killed in a house in Tiberias blown up by Zionist militants?

Did you know that on the 21st of April 1948, in a Jewish attack on Haifa, 30 Palestinians were killed, many fled to Akko but were attacked on their way, and a 100 more were killed?


WOW....sorry got sidetracked




By Rafael Medoff - April 22, 2002. From: Jerusalem Post

"Demolishing the homes of Arab civilians... Shooting handcuffed prisoners... Forcing local Arabs to test areas where mines may have been planted..."
These sound like the sort of accusations made by British and other European officials concerning Israel's recent actions in Jenin. In fact, they are descriptions from official British documents concerning the methods used by the British authorities to combat Palestinian Arab terrorism in Jenin and elsewhere in 1938.

The documents were declassified by London in 1989. They provide details of the British Mandatory government's response to the assassination of a British district commissioner by a Palestinian Arab terrorist in Jenin in the summer of 1938.

Even after the suspected assassin was captured (and then shot dead while allegedly trying to escape), the British authorities decided that "a large portion of the town should be blown up" as punishment. On August 25 of that year, a British convoy brought 4,200 kilos of explosives to Jenin for that purpose.

When the troops left, there was little else remaining of the once-busy village except a pile of mangled masonry," The New York Times reported.


But I can't find anything on that?


"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinians] never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."
David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.


WOW



For more that was written there, click Here (http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/Articles/Medoff-2002-04-22.asp)



, when your own nation does exactly the same actions that we have done and it does so now, in the past decade and much earlier then that, that is hypocrisy and that’s my point, not so much who learnt from who.
[quote=Geezah] Is this also the case for the Israali settlements that are going up everywhere? you know the settlements constitute less then 5 percent of the land mass, so please tell me how they are going up everywhere? :roll:

Wow this is what I found?


* 1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.



1948, the newly established state of Israel begins demolishing homes of Palestinian refugees to prevent their return. More than 125,000 homes, some of which were damaged during the war, were systematically destroyed in a process referred to as "cleaning up the national views"

* 1950s, Israel expels Palestinians from border areas and from villages where part of the Palestinian population remained after the war and demolishes Palestinian homes.

* 1967, Destruction of housing stock during the war included 375 homes in Imwas, 535 homes in Yalu, 550 homes in Beit Nuba, an estimated 135 homes in the Moroccan quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem, 1,000 homes in Qalqilya, in addition to thousands of homes of Beit Marsam, Beit Awa, Jiftlik, and al-Burj as well as refugee camps in the Jericho area and the Gaza Strip.

* Israel continues to demolish Palestinian homes across the West Bank, eastern Jerusalem and Gaza Strip for punitive and administrative reasons. More than 20,000 homes are demolished from 1967 to the early 1990s. This does not include refugee shelters. In the 1970s and 1980s Israel demolished more than 10,000 refugee shelters in Gaza to create a so-called security corridor between the southern Gaza Strip and the Sinai and to widen roads in the camps for Israeli military patrols. Demolitions were also part of a campaign to forcibly resettle refugees outside camps. Most demolitions occurred under Ariel Sharon then IDF Commander of the Southern Front.

* Israel continues to demolish Palestinian homes inside Israel. In 2003 demolitions of Bedouin homes in the Naqab (Negev) increased by 8 times. More than 100 homes were demolished. An additional 280 homes were destroyed in the Galilee and the Triangle. In total more than 500 homes were destroyed. There are an estimated 12,000 outstanding demolition orders in the Galilee and some 30,000 in the Naqab (Negev).

* From 1993-2000 Israel demolished more than 1,000 homes across the occupied Palestinian territories

*Since the beginning of the second intifada (uprising) in September 2000 Israel has demolished more than 3,000 homes

* Since established in 1948, it is estimated that Israel has destroyed well over 200,000 Palestinian homes.


Wow....big difference between 5,000 and 200,000 homs but I guess you guys just ran with it! :cantbeli:




Secondly yes its our land, for after acquiring land in a defensive war, well I believe we have the right to build on that land, I mean hell if not, then I would suspect that California, Arizona and Texas should be given back to Mexico and the rest should be given back to the Indians (and I can site examples from all over the world as such).

I mean in fact I believe we have a stronger case to build on our land (being that we attained it in defensive wars), then the U.S has to build on theirs.

Wow....lets pass it off, so again Israel is right everyone else is WRONG! :cantbeli:



Secondly we aren’t talking about settlements, but rather about our security fence and well we should have the right to build it wherever we deem necessary to protect our lives.

They can't just come in one day and take it it's a bit more drawn out than that plus the govermnment form my understanding will pay market valure for the property. Yes and we have also compensated them for destroyed homes when the homes are destroyed for the anti terror security fence.

200,000 :cantbeli:



Btw I ask again, how many homes have we destroyed because of that fence and site a reputable source for that figure for I don’t think we have destroyed many.

Well I'm sure it's in there with the other 200,000 homes!




But it's not just bricks here innocent people are dieing! no before we are talking about the homes being destroyed and if thats justified and I say yes and also when we do destroy a home, usually no one is dieing.

I repeat “Also note that homes that are destroyed, the occupants are fully compensated, and yes I recognize its sad that we have to do that, but if a choice between us losing more LIVES or the other bad choice of compensating a pali family for losing their home, I choose LIFE over mere bricks and stones.”

So how much money has been given out to compensate for the loss of 200,000 homes?




Hey......you're the ex-IDF member not me you'd have a better hand on figures over there? and I already said its not much.

You made the insinuation that homes are being destroyed because of the anti terror security fence and I dispute it, so where are your figures to back up what YOU said?

200,000 homes?





Present....when......I don't remember IRA members houses being demolished? Again with houses, yes with regards to the Brits, that was the past (and something we got it from ) though the Americans it is the present.

5,000 against 200,000 :cantbeli:






and as far as Christ's death it was in the past which is something I can't even bring up because it was in the past so stop trying to keep on bringing the UKs past actions into this thread!

I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous your arguements sounds "well you did it so why can't I"!!! no, except for house demolitions, much of what I talked about is present or rather recent past.

What's recent in your books because you're talking about Mexico, Texas and California?






As for home demolitions I merely pointed it out to show how absurd it is for you to harp on us when in fact we got that practice from YOU!!

My whole comparisons to what you did is merely to show your hypocrisy in condemning our actions (that I believe are actually unavoidable in combat) when your own nations has done a lot of the same, and no not only in the past am I talking about, but also the present or recent past.


Wow........5,000 against 200,000 really proves I'm a hypocrite




Please show me where we have done the same thing that Israel is doing now in the last 20yrs? no not same thing in general because again you don’t face the same as what we face (as I clearly pointed out to you before), but I can show where you have done some of the same actions, like targeted killings, killed innocent civilians, etc.. yes on those that you accuse us, you have done the same and again I believe with much less of a threat to your vital national security at you stake.

I remember when there were mortars targeted at No.10, hard to believe that I actually lived in a warzone!





And I understand that I'm ignorant to the ways of war but I should still be allowed to have a voice? I have made this very clear to you before, you have every right to express your opinion and indeed you are allowed to have a voice, all I am saying is at the same token, I can show you how your voice on military matters is ignorant (as you now even admit to) and as such you should understand your own ignorance and limitations on commenting on matters of war, when you your self admit that you are ignorant to the ways of war.

Basically in simpler terms, yes you are allowed a voice, though at the same token, I am allowed to show you how that voice is patently ignorant and blind to the realities that you decided to put forth your voice on ;)

I guess I'm not so ignorant now because I lived in a warzone too ;)




Shalom :D


Nuff said :)

[IDFM203]

Well sorry I am late here, I have been very busy of late, hell I haven’t even posted anything on here for almost a week now, so it wasn’t just in this thread. Anyways you knew it was coming sooner or later and by the fact that you even put my name in your avatar ( :roll: ;) ), well that only tells me how much anticipation you have for my follow up post ;) ………..great……here enjoy………….. :D





I just get the impression that you want to downplay anything that's taken place elsewhere in the World, IMHO and I'm entitled to it! :cantbeli: hehe :lol: yes sir, indeed you are entitled to your opinion, as we all are, though just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean your right about it and frankly your opinion of my views are clearly false!

Though I certainly understand why you persist on claiming what your so-called impression is of me ;) :roll:

The suspense is killing me?? ahh? :roll: You already say and repeat your false impressions you get from me and I keep on showing you how they are clearly false and its ONLY in your “wild” imagination that you have conjured up what my views are, even though I never say or insinuate what your so called impression is of me.

As to why you do that, well who knows, though it seems quite likely that you simply cant argue based on facts or sane reasoning so you must make up stuff about me :roll:




I don’t downplay other conflicts, though when I see you overplay your situation as if its comparable to ours, when in reality its not, then I will point that out.....that is all.

How do I overplay? By trying to show your nation has gone through what we do on a daily basis and that you face similar to what we face in terms of the past fifty plus years, when in reality you don’t!!.





I don't remember comparing the two?,My first post in this thread was in response to the general comparison between both that I saw you and others engaged in, and my first post dwelt with how there is no comparison, what I saw from you was trying to show how you faced similar to what we face and I simply disagree for I contend what we face was much larger and on a much more intensive scale with a fundamentalist ideology of total destruction that makes what we face much different then what you face

Again I don't remember trying to compare the two? Again you tried to compare the two in how you feel (wrongly) that you experienced the same that we do, when in reality you don’t!!

Now understand and I certainly get that your nation has also experienced terrorism, however I just don’t think what you face and what we face daily are the same!!




Though I say again, you still did a lot of what we did in some of your conflicts, and I might add with much less vital national security at your stake, but yes I do admit you did it much less and its as such, simply because you don’t face what we do.

But you said you learnt these tactics from the Brits now it seems you didn't? tactics? Ahh? No I said Tactic, meaning ONLY one and that was home demolitions.

The other things I didn’t say we learnt from you, however my point there is that your hypocritical to point the finger solely at us when your own nation did a lot of the same actions as well in the conflicts that you have been involved in (and not just in the distant past).





Please don't forget you had the Catholics fighting Protestants so religion was involved yes religioun was involved, though there was no religious belief that you had to destroy all of Britain or there was no suicidal religious belief that encouraged suicide bombings, these are MAJOR differences in what you face and what we face.

I found this little titbit, you guys kept on saying that the IRA mainly targetted the Military, :cantbeli: :roll: whoa stop right there.

Now this is really getting absurd…..you have done this so many times now that I have lost track :roll: , for the umpteenth time, STOP PUTTING words into my mouth or claiming what you think we claimed when I never claimed as such.

I never said the IRA mainly targeted only the military? Point out where I said such a thing!!????

I simply said in terms of the size and scope and the intensity of attacks and the enemy you face vs the fundamentalist SUICIDAL enemies that we face, well both situations are not comparable, even though I have admitted that in both situations, our respective citizens have died (and I already explained how the common denominator of death does not mean both conflicts or what both face are the same, for they are not!!)

So indeed I ALWAYS recognized that your civilians, citizens as well as soldiers have died, all I merely point out is that in the past fifty plus years, the attacks and the number that you have experienced don’t even come close to the amount and the intensity that we have, nor do I think in recent history were you ever faced with total annihilation as we have been from the past fifty plus years by the hostile neighbors that we have.


The vicitms were mainly civilians!? not the Military ones you guys claimed? :cantbeli: Again point out where I claimed mainly military and not civilian? Come on I am waiting.





Yes, the IRAs goal was to get the British and Protestants out of NI? you’re a Brit and your asking me? :roll: All I know is that they didn’t have the stated goal of destroying all of Great Britain.


Hey, I'm just trying to confirm what I said......seeing as you know everything!? No I never claimed I know everything and certainly I am not as educated about your conflict as I am on mine, and on yours, I made a few statements claiming that as far as I know, the IRA had no stated goal of destroying great Britain and that is just one of the MAJOR differences to what we face, so up to now you have not contradicted what I just said, so I take it you cant.

Good, lets move on………… :D





You have been on this forum since Sept 2003(0.66% of total / 7.13 posts per day) I joined Feb 2004(0.16% of total / 3.90 posts per day) I would say based on this you post a hell of allot more than me? So in my 4-5months on here I can't say any thread on innocent Israelis's being killed hasn't jumped out at me yet! So please get off the hypocrisy tip! no no on this point alone, I don’t exactly call you a hypocrite (there are other points for that ;) ) , but merely one that doesn’t apply universal standards in when you are so outraged over what we do but remain silent over what is done to us.

Now since you have been on, I haven’t seen you post one post commenting on anything that has happened to us or on what we face.

Well you guys did do a great job at Entebbe Airport! wow through all your falsehoods out pops a bit of a sense of humor :D …who would have thought it ;) ………well I guess I can appreciate that……however that is all it is, for its clear from your real non-answer to what I said, my points above stands.





Woohah there nelly.......I talked about the total destruction in Rafah how the IDF not only destroyed homes the Zoo but even green houses? Are these people compensated for these loses or is it just seen as collateral damage? total destruction in rafah? :roll: You mean all of rafah we destroyed? :roll: I don’t think so!! And yes the small parts of it that we destroyed in that war zone, where in green houses, and in zoos and in houses, there were pali gunman firing from, ****y trapped mines and mortar firing, all in their efforts to defend those arms smuggling tunnels that they use to fire at our cities and towns.

You make it sound likek it was the landing at Normandy? was it that bad? what does Normandy have to do with anything? :roll: Anyways I am not going to play your game here, what I wrote above is very clear and yes indeed, what “we” faced in Gaza was indeed a all our urban combat in a full war zone. It’s a simple as that, now where it compares to is not in the realm of this discussion here.





Counter response????? *you* keep on telling me I'm clueless because I haven't served? :cantbeli: beeep wrong answer……..I keep on telling you your wrong for your comments show complete ignorance simply based on what you wrote, not just because you haven’t served but because as I have shown (and I make a case for it and not simply say you don’t know because you haven’t served), you have no concept of what we face or what is a real war zone as I explained in great detail and then I add I understand why you show the ignorance that you do, for you talk about things that as one that never served, you have no REAL concept of what you are talking about.

Now indeed there are some (Keyword SOME) that haven’t served that do know, but that’s not you ;)


Well thanks to you.......I just realized that I used to live in a warzone......England...we were constantly being told to be vigilant and watch out for suspect packages and such, you never knew when they might strike and as I said before they tried blowing up Hammersmith bridge which I had just driven across from Hammersmith a few hours before :| So you are comparing you being told to be vigilant to full combat in an all out urban war zone :cantbeli: :roll:


Again what I said was very clear (and if it wasn’t clear to you before, then let me make it clear to you now……..) what I said above, was not referring to how you live in your nation or even how I live in mine, but rather what’s its like to experience combat in a all out urban war zone and clearly since you never served, you don’t have any concept of what its like to be in all out urban combat in a urban war zone and as such your comments on that very subject just reeked of pure ignorance.

To further prove that you knew nothing of what you wrote before on war zones, I even wrote that I understand as such being that you never served in the military, and that was before you even confirmed to me that I was indeed correct in that yes you never have served in a military.

Your ignorance was very blatant and obvious for me (or anyone) to point out that clearly you never served!





No, you're telling me that everywhere the IDF is is a warzone? so by that I'm ignorant to everything the IDF does. Yes when the IDF goes in, it is a war zone simply by the fact that the palis make it as such when they use every inch of the land there, be it homes, green houses, zoos, to engage in a war, simply to protect their arms smuggling tunnels, where those tunnels we have every right to go in to stop.

Its not just about you being ignorant to what the IDF does but rather your simple ignorance to what a war zone is and what we face.

NI was a warzone seeing as the Military have been there for years and were constantly patrolling, so in a way we're both used to warzones except you served in the IDF and I didn't but I'll see if I can get in contact with my Great Uncles seeing as two of them are retired RM(I have no details at hand). I am talking about YOU, not about people you know.

Secondly your comment “we're both used to warzones”….excuse me!! :cantbeli: ahh?? We’re??? :cantbeli: No, YOU never were in one!!

From your comments so far, you have showed complete ignorance on what kind of war zones we face let alone in general what a real war zone is.


I think there's another thread on James Miller? ahh??

I repeat “Oh and as for what you just said now, So out of the thousands of reporters that are there we are all shooting at them? :roll: I belive Israel has the highest concentration of reporters then anywhere else in the world, yes I hear reports of them being shot at daily :roll: …..no, when it happens, its hardly “the IDF” doing it but rather a few soldiers have done it a few times, its like you have British soldiers that have done bad things a few times.

Secondly not all times is it clear to see if they are a reporter, and mistakes like that do happen unfortunately in a war zone but again you see a picture so you think it is but you never were in a APC in a war zone so you have no idea how easy or hard it is to spot.




Why in Rafah was it nessecery to detroy the Olive trees and the green houses or again is it classified as a warzone? First of all the U.S. did it in Iraq, but I guess only when Jews(Do You Mean Israeli?)do it to we point it out :roll:

Secondly if they fire from there, or use it as cover for snipers, then yes it is a war zone!!

So again anywhere the IDF goes is a warzone.......hhhmmmmm I don't recall reading anythiung on that in NI... Yes in NI the IRA had large arms smuggling tunnels that was dug from neighboring countries that they used to fire mortars, rockets and bullets daily and weekly at British towns and cities, and I guess also the Brits went in to stop those tunnels and then they were faced with IRA gunman that were firing from olive trees, green houses, homes and also everywhere and in all places, there were bombs and other deadly ****y traps, laden around everywhere :roll:

Yes I guess even I see now that after all you faced exactly what we faced :roll: …………..not!!

Gees, again in this case, when we went in indeed everywhere we went it was a war zone, simply by the fact that the Pali's made it into one when they fired from green houses, olive trees and homes, and placed all sorts of deadly ****y traps all over the place, simply all to protect those arms smuggling tunnels.



I say again, its sad when an innocent child is killed and we do not celebrate it when we commit that (unlike the plai's in general that do celebrate the loss of our civilians) and yes we aren’t perfect and in all our actions I wont justify every single one of them for indeed I know like in every military, we also have our few bad apples, but in general for the most part we do NOT purposely target civilians or children but when you have a lot of cases where the kids purposely put themselves in harms way or the gun man force them to do so, and they fire at us from within, well its unavoidable at times.

There was something on discovery the other day about the affect wars around the World have on kids and it went to Israel, at one point it focused on a down where Palistinian kids were walking to school with a Palistinian flag only to be attcked by Israeli stterlers while the IDF looked on and did nothing....do you know what town I'm talking about. First of all, what does this have to do with my above statement?? All I see here is more grasping for straws on your part :roll: …..you never can stop as I see it’s the only thing you can do in the absence of any truthful thoughts on the real realties that we face and how we respond.

Secondly, I don’t know of what town you are talking about and I guess I would like to see a credible link to it.

Thirdly I know that in general, we do as policy try to protect Pali's from any potential attacks that may emanate from any settlers.

Of course the settlers are allowed to have the right for self defense, but yes if it wasn’t, then its wrong and I and most Israelis are against that.

Just in general, it’s not a major problem, I mean for the most part, MOST settlers are very peaceful.

I mean yes I know of attacks, but they aren’t a big number, I mean hell, I ask in the past four years of conflict, how many pali’s have any setters killed?

Also how many plai’s have they attacked and how many were involved?

Lastly the settlers also get attacked, but of course I don’t see any comments from you on that :roll:




So what do you want me to say that what the IDF does is always justified? no not always, just I understand the realties of what we face and as such I believe I simply put the proper context of what the IDF is doing and what it really faces

I have said this before, we aren’t perfect and yes we do make mistakes (as does everyone else) and not everything we did for our defense in the past 50 plus years can I justify, but overall I know we for the most part do NOT intentionally target civilians of any kind and overall I believe we act just in our actions especially considering the real realties that we have had to face.

I still believe some things you guys did were over thetop but I also as you said think certain things had to be done. hey we aren’t perfect as I don’t think you are any one else is and I believe Acc. to your criteria, then your nations have also acted over the top at times.…………..anyways for the rest of what I want to say, read above your remark here.

I just want to add that I don’t mind criticism and you saying that we have acted over the top, but all too often I find by people of your ilk, in the need or the preference to fine over the top in almost everything even when its not the case, much like how the Pali’s accuse and define every act that we do as a massacre, even when clearly they aren’t :roll:




That doesn't tell me a thing, you seem to be so well educated on the subject so I thought you'd have references at hand? I guess not! ok ok so you want a reference, for indeed I am well educated on this, though I admit references are hard to find.





Anyways after a quick search I found two sites, one is a pali site (hardly a pro Israel site and you can see that after a quick glance from reading the rest there), and the other site is from the Jerusalem post.

1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.

For that link click Here (http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=3782&CategoryId=2)

This was an interresting read, thank you I also found this,

Di you know…blah blah blah…………………….





WOW....sorry got sidetracked hahaha ;) yes indeed I guess I should have expected you to continue on with your grasping for straws and going for any side issues simply to divert from the point that I proved to you :roll:

Listen, you cutting and pasting a whole long article simply further shows the lack of depth and knowledge on this conflict, a conflict that you decided to make tons of comments on….now listen I too can post tons of long articles that address every single point there and much much MORE, however that is not what a proper debate is and certainly not how this forum is supposed to be, so I wont go into that, however on home demolitions as it shows there (whether I accept their numbers or not) is that you did that and well all I am saying is that we got that practice from you.

(oh and on the articles, listen I never said we justify everything, so again we aren’t perfect, but believe me besides the many lies there, they leave out very important context to what they accuse us of doing and that’s critical to really understanding the conflict that we are in and what we face)



By Rafael Medoff - April 22, 2002. From: Jerusalem Post

"Demolishing the homes of Arab civilians... Shooting handcuffed prisoners... Forcing local Arabs to test areas where mines may have been planted..."
These sound like the sort of accusations made by British and other European officials concerning Israel's recent actions in Jenin. In fact, they are descriptions from official British documents concerning the methods used by the British authorities to combat Palestinian Arab terrorism in Jenin and elsewhere in 1938.

The documents were declassified by London in 1989. They provide details of the British Mandatory government's response to the assassination of a British district commissioner by a Palestinian Arab terrorist in Jenin in the summer of 1938.

Even after the suspected assassin was captured (and then shot dead while allegedly trying to escape), the British authorities decided that "a large portion of the town should be blown up" as punishment. On August 25 of that year, a British convoy brought 4,200 kilos of explosives to Jenin for that purpose.

When the troops left, there was little else remaining of the once-busy village except a pile of mangled masonry," The New York Times reported.


But I can't find anything on that? ahh?? What cant you find anything on? :roll: That the Brits purposely destroyed homes?? Well that cant be that you cant find anything on that for I showed you already two sources that they did, a practice that we copied from!!



, when your own nation does exactly the same actions that we have done and it does so now, in the past decade and much earlier then that, that is hypocrisy and that’s my point, not so much who learnt from who.

Is this also the case for the Israali settlements that are going up everywhere? you know the settlements constitute less then 5 percent of the land mass, so please tell me how they are going up everywhere? :roll:


Wow this is what I found?


* 1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.
Great and thats all we are talking about here.

Good.

The rest is not what this thread is about so I wont get caught up into it simply so you can further muddle the waters here to divert from the simple fact that in the space of three years, it was YOU, the Brits, that first initiated the practice of destroying homes.


Wow....big difference between 5,000 and 200,000 homs but I guess you guys just ran with it! :I never said your situation is like ours, get that very clear, however all I said was that we got that PRACTICE from you and well you did those actions in what I believe is not even the same situation as what we face.

Ok with that said, lets now do some examinations on what your saying here if I may……… ;)

First, a lot of the homes that we destroyed was in the midst of war (and that 200,000 figure I believe is exaggerated but that’s for another day and thread ;) ) and even that heavily biased site claims that some (well I say a lot) were destroyed in the war, meaning not simply we went to destroy them but rather in the normal course of a war where homes do get destroyed, unlike that initial British practice where the sole aim was to set out and destroy homes!!. Secondly most of those homes that were destroyed in the early years, were mostly empty homes and it was homes of people that fled on their own.

Lastly and more impotently as it pertains to you and your numbers, well you destroyed over 5000 in just THREE YEARS there!! :roll: much more then we have done in the past four years of intensive conflict that we have been in, now if you do that many in that short of a time, imagine you stayed there till now and put up with what we have to for over 50 plus years, well the number would also be A LOT higher then just that 5000, probably more like in our range or even higher.


Secondly yes its our land, for after acquiring land in a defensive war, well I believe we have the right to build on that land, I mean hell if not, then I would suspect that California, Arizona and Texas should be given back to Mexico and the rest should be given back to the Indians (and I can site examples from all over the world as such).

I mean in fact I believe we have a stronger case to build on our land (being that we attained it in defensive wars), then the U.S has to build on theirs.

Wow....lets pass it off, so again Israel is right everyone else is WRONG! :cantbeli: No, just everyone is hypocritical!! oh and I guess they are all right when they do it but when Jews do it is wrong :roll:

And yes on this we have every right to build on it being that we attained it in a defensive war.

Arguing simply because you say everyone says something is not a sound basis for an argument. No, stick to arguing on the merits of something and hell even if you disagree then make a sound case for it, but simply saying everyone (especially me as a Jew, yeah we know usually everyone is always right when its about us :roll: ) is not good answer in an argument…no, try harder next time, I am not buying your weak reply here!!




Secondly we aren’t talking about settlements, but rather about our security fence and well we should have the right to build it wherever we deem necessary to protect our lives.

They can't just come in one day and take it it's a bit more drawn out than that plus the govermnment form my understanding will pay market valure for the property. Yes and we have also compensated them for destroyed homes when the homes are destroyed for the anti terror security fence.

200,000 :cantbeli: :cantbeli: Wow so you can prove we have destroyed 200,000 homes for this anti terror security fence?

Let me see a link to that!!!!

Go read again clearly my words you just responded to




Btw I ask again, how many homes have we destroyed because of that fence and site a reputable source for that figure for I don’t think we have destroyed many.

Well I'm sure it's in there with the other 200,000 homes! So again how many homes have we destroyed for the anti terror fence? you made statements before that clearly implied a lot, I dispute that and yet you have still not shown me any credible number as to how many we have because of this anti terror security fence.

I guess this shows you cant!! Simply because the fact that we haven’t destroyed many for that fence!!





But it's not just bricks here innocent people are dieing! no before we are talking about the homes being destroyed and if thats justified and I say yes and also when we do destroy a home, usually no one is dieing.

I repeat “Also note that homes that are destroyed, the occupants are fully compensated, and yes I recognize its sad that we have to do that, but if a choice between us losing more LIVES or the other bad choice of compensating a pali family for losing their home, I choose LIFE over mere bricks and stones.”

So how much money has been given out to compensate for the loss of 200,000 homes? I never said all homes get compensations, when homes are destroyed because they are terrorists homes, homes that are used for cover for snipers, or even homes that Pali’s that fled in years back, indeed there is no compensation as I don’t think there should be any.

Secondly that number you got there is way over inflated even if its been in all of the past 50 years of conflict.

Oh and how much did the Brits compensate for the thousands of homes they destroyed after they stated that practice?? :roll:



Hey......you're the ex-IDF member not me you'd have a better hand on figures over there? and I already said its not much.

You made the insinuation that homes are being destroyed because of the anti terror security fence and I dispute it, so where are your figures to back up what YOU said?

200,000 homes? Again :roll: , that many for the anti terror security fence??? I don’t think so!!

Again how many because of that anti terror security fence?

I say very very few have been because of the anti terror security fence and you say...........?




Present....when......I don't remember IRA members houses being demolished? Again with houses, yes with regards to the Brits, that was the past (and something we got it from ) though the Americans it is the present.

5,000 against 200,000 :cantbeli: Again we got that practice from you, so great I see you accepted that fact, finally ;) …..as for numbers, yes you did it in 3 years, so I guess if you'd continued on staying there till now, well you do the math, but I can guarantee you it would be A LOT more.

Again its not about numbers, but rather simply you came up with this practice when you were here and well we got it from you and that is all my initial point was on.

So I guess when Brits do it (and initiate that practice) here its ok and no one mentions it but when Jews do it, well well here is your British outrage :roll: ….now that’s what I call pure hypocrisy!!




and as far as Christ's death it was in the past which is something I can't even bring up because it was in the past so stop trying to keep on bringing the UKs past actions into this thread!

I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous your arguements sounds "well you did it so why can't I"!!! no, except for house demolitions, much of what I talked about is present or rather recent past.

What's recent in your books because you're talking about Mexico, Texas and California? Wow you cant even follow what I am saying and when I say it :cantbeli: ….I clearly mentioned those places in conjunction with ONLY one issue (and that’s the right to build land) and that is the only issue I brought it up with.

As for what I meant by recent, I am referring to Iraq, Afghanistan and NATO in Bosnia, now I am sure there are other recent ones, but I am find with just looking at those ;)




As for home demolitions I merely pointed it out to show how absurd it is for you to harp on us when in fact we got that practice from YOU!!

My whole comparisons to what you did is merely to show your hypocrisy in condemning our actions (that I believe are actually unavoidable in combat) when your own nations has done a lot of the same, and no not only in the past am I talking about, but also the present or recent past.


Wow........5,000 against 200,000 really proves I'm a hypocriteYes so when you were here and in only three years time you started a practice that destroyed more then we have in all of the past four years in our war here, but you deplore when we do it, but yet are silent or never even knew or cared when you did it, not to mention that we actually got that practice from you…..yes that is hypocrisy





Please show me where we have done the same thing that Israel is doing now in the last 20yrs? no not same thing in general because again you don’t face the same as what we face (as I clearly pointed out to you before), but I can show where you have done some of the same actions, like targeted killings, killed innocent civilians, etc.. yes on those that you accuse us, you have done the same and again I believe with much less of a threat to your vital national security at you stake.

I remember when there were mortars targeted at No.10, hard to believe that I actually lived in a warzone! Yes so in a 10 years you got one mortar attack and that is a war zone?? Oh I guess New York is also a war zone because of those one attacks?……..listen facing one mortar or one attack as such, is not the same as being in a war zone where you are constantly bombarded with mortars, RPG’s bullets etc from all directions…

Secondly I already addressed before what is a war zone and what I am referring to.





And I understand that I'm ignorant to the ways of war but I should still be allowed to have a voice? I have made this very clear to you before, you have every right to express your opinion and indeed you are allowed to have a voice, all I am saying is at the same token, I can show you how your voice on military matters is ignorant (as you now even admit to) and as such you should understand your own ignorance and limitations on commenting on matters of war, when you your self admit that you are ignorant to the ways of war.

Basically in simpler terms, yes you are allowed a voice, though at the same token, I am allowed to show you how that voice is patently ignorant and blind to the realities that you decided to put forth your voice on ;)

I guess I'm not so ignorant now because I lived in a warzone too ;) No trust me you just IMO made a big fool out of yourself to ones on this board that did serve and indeed know what a real combat war zone is but yet have to read some armchair civilian try to say that being vigilant in a city or having one mortar hit a place is like the war zones that SOME of us soldiers have experienced in the urban combat zones that we have been in.

I hope for your sake you weren’t serious about trying to draw actual parallels, but somehow I don’t have faith that you weren’t serious :roll:

Lastly let me just end off by commenting on your long cut and pasts. Listen this is a military forum that soldiers, former soldiers or just general military enthusiasts like to come and converse, share experiences, share and view photos or even like to debate and to the latter I most certainly also enjoy, however what I find absurd and weak, is to have a debate with someone that ends up in the poster simply spewing forth reams of cut and pasts, I find it to be intellectually weak and frankly its not what a proper debate is supposed to be like with two people, I mean if you want some of that info to come here, then quote ONLY what exactly pertains to the opposing viewpoints and to the specifics of the discussion at hand and the rest link it (as I have done), for what you did above was insulting and frankly if I see that again well you can consider this debate over, for I try not to continue debating with what I find to be intellectually weak people when it comes to this subject. On the latter point let me just add that I have been here long enough to realize that when a debate gets as long as ours is, usually most of the rest of the forum has tuned out already and the debate is being mostly read by only you and me, so cutting and pasting long articles, which I did NOT bother to read (I read what you, the opposing debater wrote, but whole long cut and pastes side articles, well I didn’t bother to waste my time on), is simply a waste of time and is pointless to do.



P.S. Wow I am flattered that you took the time to place my name in your avatar location, though I would say no need to falsely flatter yourself as if you effect me that much where I feel the need to go after you, or take over your patio as you put it, hell I even said I wouldn’t mind going shooting with you, though now on second thought, I guess you are all armed and ready and I see even if I came over for that friendly shoot, after what happens to me, you’ll claim to the police that “hey he tried to take over my patio and well it was self defense yada yada… ;)


Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

Well sorry I am late here, I have been very busy f late, hell I haven’t even posted anything here for almost a week now, so it wasn’t just this post. Anyways you knew it was coming and by the fact that you even put my name in your avatar, well that only tells me how much anticipation you have for my follow up post………..great……here enjoy…………..





I just get the impression that you want to downplay anything that's taken place elsewhere in the World, IMHO and I'm entitled to it! :cantbeli: hehe :lol: yes sir, indeed you are entitled to your opinion, as we all are, though just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean your right about it and frankly your opinion of my views are clearly false!

Though I certainly understand why you persist on claiming what your so-called impression is of me ;) :roll:

The suspense is killing me?? ahh? :roll: You already say and repeat your false impressions you get from me and I keep on showing you how they are clearly false and its ONLY in your “wild” imagination that you have conjured up what my views are, even though I never say or insinuate what your so called impression is of me.

As to why you do that, well who knows, though it seems quite likely that you simply cant argue based on facts or sane reasoning so you must make up stuff about me :roll:




I don’t downplay other conflicts, though when I see you overplay your situation as if its comparable to ours, when in reality its not, then I will point that out.....that is all.

How do I overplay? By trying to show your nation has gone through what we do on a daily basis and that you face similar to what we face in terms of the past fifty plus years, when in reality you don’t!!.





I don't remember comparing the two?,My first post in this thread was in response to the general comparison between both that I saw you and others engaged in, and my first post dwelt with how there is no comparison, what I saw from you was trying to show how you faced similar to what we face and I simply disagree for I contend what we face was much larger and on a much more intensive scale with a fundamentalist ideology of total destruction that makes what we face much different then what you face

Again I don't remember trying to compare the two? Again you tried to compare the two in how you feel (wrongly) that you experienced the same that we do, when in reality you don’t!!

Now understand and I certainly get that your nation has also experienced terrorism, however I just don’t think what you face and what we face daily are the same!!




Though I say again, you still did a lot of what we did in some of your conflicts, and I might add with much less vital national security at your stake, but yes I do admit you did it much less and its as such, simply because you don’t face what we do.

But you said you learnt these tactics from the Brits now it seems you didn't? tactics? Ahh? No I said Tactic, meaning ONLY one and that was home demolitions.

The other things I didn’t say we learnt from you, however my point there is that your hypocritical to point the finger solely at us when your own nation did a lot of the same actions as well in the conflicts that you have been involved in (and not just in the distant past).





Please don't forget you had the Catholics fighting Protestants so religion was involved yes religioun was involved, though there was no religious belief that you had to destroy all of Britain or there was no suicidal religious belief that encouraged suicide bombings, these are MAJOR differences in what you face and what we face.

I found this little titbit, you guys kept on saying that the IRA mainly targetted the Military, :cantbeli: :roll: whoa stop right there.

Now this is really getting absurd…..you have done this so many times now that I have lost track :roll: , for the umpteenth time, STOP PUTTING words into my mouth or claiming what you think we claimed when I never claimed as such.

I never said the IRA mainly targeted only the military? Point out where I said such a thing!!????

I simply said in terms of the size and scope and the intensity of attacks and the enemy you face vs the fundamentalist SUICIDAL enemies that we face, well both situations are not comparable, even though I have admitted that in both situations, our respective citizens have died (and I already explained how the common denominator of death does not mean both conflicts or what both face are the same, for they are not!!)

So indeed I ALWAYS recognized that your civilians, citizens as well as soldiers have died, all I merely point out is that in the past fifty plus years, the attacks and the number that you have experienced don’t even come close to the amount and the intensity that we have, nor do I think in recent history were you ever faced with total annihilation as we have been from the past fifty plus years by the hostile neighbors that we have.


The vicitms were mainly civilians!? not the Military ones you guys claimed? :cantbeli: Again point out where I claimed mainly military and not civilian? Come on I am waiting.





Yes, the IRAs goal was to get the British and Protestants out of NI? you’re a Brit and your asking me? :roll: All I know is that they didn’t have the stated goal of destroying all of Great Britain.


Hey, I'm just trying to confirm what I said......seeing as you know everything!? No I never claimed I know everything and certainly I am not as educated about your conflict as I am on mine, and on yours, I made a few statements claiming that as far as I know, the IRA had no stated goal of destroying great Britain and that is just one of the MAJOR differences to what we face, so up to now you have not contradicted what I just said, so I take it you cant.

Good, lets move on………… :D





You have been on this forum since Sept 2003(0.66% of total / 7.13 posts per day) I joined Feb 2004(0.16% of total / 3.90 posts per day) I would say based on this you post a hell of allot more than me? So in my 4-5months on here I can't say any thread on innocent Israelis's being killed hasn't jumped out at me yet! So please get off the hypocrisy tip! no no on this point alone, I don’t exactly call you a hypocrite (there are other points for that ;) ) , but merely one that doesn’t apply universal standards in when you are so outraged over what we do but remain silent over what is done to us.

Now since you have been on, I haven’t seen you post one post commenting on anything that has happened to us or on what we face.

Well you guys did do a great job at Entebbe Airport! wow through all your falsehoods out pops a bit of a sense of humor :D …who would have thought it ;) ………well I guess I can appreciate that……however that is all it is, for its clear from your real non-answer to what I said, my points above stands.





Woohah there nelly.......I talked about the total destruction in Rafah how the IDF not only destroyed homes the Zoo but even green houses? Are these people compensated for these loses or is it just seen as collateral damage? total destruction in rafah? :roll: You mean all of rafah we destroyed? :roll: I don’t think so!! And yes the small parts of it that we destroyed in that war zone, where in green houses, and in zoos and in houses, there were pali gunman firing from, ****y trapped mines and mortar firing, all in their efforts to defend those arms smuggling tunnels that they use to fire at our cities and towns.

You make it sound likek it was the landing at Normandy? was it that bad? what does Normandy have to do with anything? :roll: Anyways I am not going to play your game here, what I wrote above is very clear and yes indeed, what “we” faced in Gaza was indeed a all our urban combat in a full war zone. It’s a simple as that, now where it compares to is not in the realm of this discussion here.





Counter response????? *you* keep on telling me I'm clueless because I haven't served? :cantbeli: beeep wrong answer……..I keep on telling you your wrong for your comments show complete ignorance simply based on what you wrote, not just because you haven’t served but because as I have shown (and I make a case for it and not simply say you don’t know because you haven’t served), you have no concept of what we face or what is a real war zone as I explained in great detail and then I add I understand why you show the ignorance that you do, for you talk about things that as one that never served, you have no REAL concept of what you are talking about.

Now indeed there are some (Keyword SOME) that haven’t served that do know, but that’s not you ;)


Well thanks to you.......I just realized that I used to live in a warzone......England...we were constantly being told to be vigilant and watch out for suspect packages and such, you never knew when they might strike and as I said before they tried blowing up Hammersmith bridge which I had just driven across from Hammersmith a few hours before :| So you are comparing you being told to be vigilant to full combat in an all out urban war zone :cantbeli: :roll:


Again what I said was very clear (and if it wasn’t clear to you before, then let me make it clear to you now……..) what I said above, was not referring to how you live in your nation or even how I live in mine, but rather what’s its like to experience combat in a all out urban war zone and clearly since you never served, you don’t have any concept of what its like to be in all out urban combat in a urban war zone and as such your comments on that very subject just reeked of pure ignorance.

To further prove that you knew nothing of what you wrote before on war zones, I even wrote that I understand as such being that you never served in the military, and that was before you even confirmed to me that I was indeed correct in that yes you never have served in a military.

Your ignorance was very blatant and obvious for me (or anyone) to point out that clearly you never served!





No, you're telling me that everywhere the IDF is is a warzone? so by that I'm ignorant to everything the IDF does. Yes when the IDF goes in, it is a war zone simply by the fact that the palis make it as such when they use every inch of the land there, be it homes, green houses, zoos, to engage in a war, simply to protect their arms smuggling tunnels, where those tunnels we have every right to go in to stop.

Its not just about you being ignorant to what the IDF does but rather your simple ignorance to what a war zone is and what we face.

NI was a warzone seeing as the Military have been there for years and were constantly patrolling, so in a way we're both used to warzones except you served in the IDF and I didn't but I'll see if I can get in contact with my Great Uncles seeing as two of them are retired RM(I have no details at hand). I am talking about YOU, not about people you know.

Secondly your comment “we're both used to warzones”….excuse me!! :cantbeli: ahh?? We’re??? :cantbeli: No, YOU never were in one!!

From your comments so far, you have showed complete ignorance on what kind of war zones we face let alone in general what a real war zone is.


I think there's another thread on James Miller? ahh??

I repeat “Oh and as for what you just said now, So out of the thousands of reporters that are there we are all shooting at them? :roll: I belive Israel has the highest concentration of reporters then anywhere else in the world, yes I hear reports of them being shot at daily :roll: …..no, when it happens, its hardly “the IDF” doing it but rather a few soldiers have done it a few times, its like you have British soldiers that have done bad things a few times.

Secondly not all times is it clear to see if they are a reporter, and mistakes like that do happen unfortunately in a war zone but again you see a picture so you think it is but you never were in a APC in a war zone so you have no idea how easy or hard it is to spot.




Why in Rafah was it nessecery to detroy the Olive trees and the green houses or again is it classified as a warzone? First of all the U.S. did it in Iraq, but I guess only when Jews(Do You Mean Israeli?)do it to we point it out :roll:

Secondly if they fire from there, or use it as cover for snipers, then yes it is a war zone!!

So again anywhere the IDF goes is a warzone.......hhhmmmmm I don't recall reading anythiung on that in NI... Yes in NI the IRA had large arms smuggling tunnels that was dug from neighboring countries that they used to fire mortars, rockets and bullets daily and weekly at British towns and cities, and I guess also the Brits went in to stop those tunnels and then they were faced with IRA gunman that were firing from olive trees, green houses, homes and also everywhere and in all places, there were bombs and other deadly ****y traps, laden around everywhere :roll:

Yes I guess even I see now that after all you faced exactly what we faced :roll: …………..not!!

Gees, again in this case, when we went in indeed everywhere we went it was a war zone, simply by the fact that the Pali's made it into one when they fired from green houses, olive trees and homes, and placed all sorts of deadly ****y traps all over the place, simply all to protect those arms smuggling tunnels.



I say again, its sad when an innocent child is killed and we do not celebrate it when we commit that (unlike the plai's in general that do celebrate the loss of our civilians) and yes we aren’t perfect and in all our actions I wont justify every single one of them for indeed I know like in every military, we also have our few bad apples, but in general for the most part we do NOT purposely target civilians or children but when you have a lot of cases where the kids purposely put themselves in harms way or the gun man force them to do so, and they fire at us from within, well its unavoidable at times.

There was something on discovery the other day about the affect wars around the World have on kids and it went to Israel, at one point it focused on a down where Palistinian kids were walking to school with a Palistinian flag only to be attcked by Israeli stterlers while the IDF looked on and did nothing....do you know what town I'm talking about. First of all, what does this have to do with my above statement?? All I see here is more grasping for straws on your part :roll: …..you never can stop as I see it’s the only thing you can do in the absence of any truthful thoughts on the real realties that we face and how we respond.

Secondly, I don’t know of what town you are talking about and I guess I would like to see a credible link to it.

Thirdly I know that in general, we do as policy try to protect Pali's from any potential attacks that may emanate from any settlers.

Of course the settlers are allowed to have the right for self defense, but yes if it wasn’t, then its wrong and I and most Israelis are against that.

Just in general, it’s not a major problem, I mean for the most part, MOST settlers are very peaceful.

I mean yes I know of attacks, but they aren’t a big number, I mean hell, I ask in the past four years of conflict, how many pali’s have any setters killed?

Also how many plai’s have they attacked and how many were involved?

Lastly the settlers also get attacked, but of course I don’t see any comments from you on that :roll:




So what do you want me to say that what the IDF does is always justified? no not always, just I understand the realties of what we face and as such I believe I simply put the proper context of what the IDF is doing and what it really faces

I have said this before, we aren’t perfect and yes we do make mistakes (as does everyone else) and not everything we did for our defense in the past 50 plus years can I justify, but overall I know we for the most part do NOT intentionally target civilians of any kind and overall I believe we act just in our actions especially considering the real realties that we have had to face.

I still believe some things you guys did were over thetop but I also as you said think certain things had to be done. hey we aren’t perfect as I don’t think you are any one else is and I believe Acc. to your criteria, then your nations have also acted over the top at times.…………..anyways for the rest of what I want to say, read above your remark here.

I just want to add that I don’t mind criticism and you saying that we have acted over the top, but all too often I find by people of your ilk, in the need or the preference to fine over the top in almost everything even when its not the case, much like how the Pali’s accuse and define every act that we do as a massacre, even when clearly they aren’t :roll:




That doesn't tell me a thing, you seem to be so well educated on the subject so I thought you'd have references at hand? I guess not! ok ok so you want a reference, for indeed I am well educated on this, though I admit references are hard to find.





Anyways after a quick search I found two sites, one is a pali site (hardly a pro Israel site and you can see that after a quick glance from reading the rest there), and the other site is from the Jerusalem post.

1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.

For that link click Here (http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=3782&CategoryId=2)

This was an interresting read, thank you I also found this,

Di you know…blah blah blah…………………….





WOW....sorry got sidetracked hahaha ;) yes indeed I guess I should have expected you to continue on with your grasping for straws and going for any side issues simply to divert from the point that I proved to you :roll:

Listen, you cutting and pasting a whole long article simply further shows the lack of depth and knowledge on this conflict, a conflict that you decided to make tons of comments on….now listen I too can post tons of long articles that address every single point there and much much MORE, however that is not what a proper debate is and certainly not how this forum is supposed to be, so I wont go into that, however on home demolitions as it shows there (whether I accept their numbers or not) is that you did that and well all I am saying is that we got that practice from you.

(oh and on the articles, listen I never said we justify everything, so again we aren’t perfect, but believe me besides the many lies there, they leave out very important context to what they accuse us of doing and that’s critical to really understanding the conflict that we are in and what we face)



By Rafael Medoff - April 22, 2002. From: Jerusalem Post

"Demolishing the homes of Arab civilians... Shooting handcuffed prisoners... Forcing local Arabs to test areas where mines may have been planted..."
These sound like the sort of accusations made by British and other European officials concerning Israel's recent actions in Jenin. In fact, they are descriptions from official British documents concerning the methods used by the British authorities to combat Palestinian Arab terrorism in Jenin and elsewhere in 1938.

The documents were declassified by London in 1989. They provide details of the British Mandatory government's response to the assassination of a British district commissioner by a Palestinian Arab terrorist in Jenin in the summer of 1938.

Even after the suspected assassin was captured (and then shot dead while allegedly trying to escape), the British authorities decided that "a large portion of the town should be blown up" as punishment. On August 25 of that year, a British convoy brought 4,200 kilos of explosives to Jenin for that purpose.

When the troops left, there was little else remaining of the once-busy village except a pile of mangled masonry," The New York Times reported.


But I can't find anything on that? ahh?? What cant you find anything on? :roll: That the Brits purposely destroyed homes?? Well that cant be that you cant find anything on that for I showed you already two sources that they did, a practice that we copied from!!



, when your own nation does exactly the same actions that we have done and it does so now, in the past decade and much earlier then that, that is hypocrisy and that’s my point, not so much who learnt from who.

Is this also the case for the Israali settlements that are going up everywhere? you know the settlements constitute less then 5 percent of the land mass, so please tell me how they are going up everywhere? :roll:


Wow this is what I found?


* 1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.
Great and thats all we are talking about here.

Good.

The rest is not what this thread is about so I wont get caught up into it simply so you can further muddle the waters here to divert from the simple fact that in the space of three years, it was YOU, the Brits, that first initiated the practice of destroying homes.


Wow....big difference between 5,000 and 200,000 homs but I guess you guys just ran with it! :I never said your situation is like ours, get that very clear, however all I said was that we got that PRACTICE from you and well you did those actions in what I believe is not even the same situation as what we face.

Ok with that said, lets now do some examinations on what your saying here if I may……… ;)

First, a lot of the homes that we destroyed was in the midst of war (and that 200,000 figure I believe is exaggerated but that’s for another day and thread ;) ) and even that heavily biased site claims that some (well I say a lot) were destroyed in the war, meaning not simply we went to destroy them but rather in the normal course of a war where homes do get destroyed, unlike that initial British practice where the sole aim was to set out and destroy homes!!. Secondly most of those homes that were destroyed in the early years, were mostly empty homes and it was homes of people that fled on their own.

Lastly and more impotently as it pertains to you and your numbers, well you destroyed over 5000 in just three years there, much more then we have done in the past four years of intensive conflict that we have been in, now if you do that many in that short of a time, imagine you stayed there till now and put up with what we have to for over 50 plus years, well the number would also be A LOT higher then just that 5000, probably more like in our range or even higher.


Secondly yes its our land, for after acquiring land in a defensive war, well I believe we have the right to build on that land, I mean hell if not, then I would suspect that California, Arizona and Texas should be given back to Mexico and the rest should be given back to the Indians (and I can site examples from all over the world as such).

I mean in fact I believe we have a stronger case to build on our land (being that we attained it in defensive wars), then the U.S has to build on theirs.

Wow....lets pass it off, so again Israel is right everyone else is WRONG! :cantbeli: No, just everyone is hypocritical!! oh and I guess they are all right when they do it but when Jews do it is wrong :roll:

And yes on this we have every right to build on it being that we attained it in a defensive war.

Arguing simply because you say everyone says something is not a sound basis for an argument. No, stick to arguing on the merits of something and hell even if you disagree then make a sound case for it, but simply saying everyone (especially me as a Jew, yeah we know usually everyone is always right when its about us :roll: ) is not good answer in an argument…no, try harder next time, I am not buying your weak reply here!!




Secondly we aren’t talking about settlements, but rather about our security fence and well we should have the right to build it wherever we deem necessary to protect our lives.

They can't just come in one day and take it it's a bit more drawn out than that plus the govermnment form my understanding will pay market valure for the property. Yes and we have also compensated them for destroyed homes when the homes are destroyed for the anti terror security fence.

200,000 :cantbeli: :cantbeli: Wow so you can prove we have destroyed 200,000 homes for this anti terror security fence?

Let me see a link to that!!!!

Go read again clearly my words you just responded to




Btw I ask again, how many homes have we destroyed because of that fence and site a reputable source for that figure for I don’t think we have destroyed many.

Well I'm sure it's in there with the other 200,000 homes! So again how many homes have we destroyed for the anti terror fence? you made statements before that clearly implied a lot, I dispute that and yet you have still not shown me any credible number as to how many we have because of this anti terror security fence.

I guess this shows you cant!! Simply because the fact that we haven’t destroyed many for that fence!!





But it's not just bricks here innocent people are dieing! no before we are talking about the homes being destroyed and if thats justified and I say yes and also when we do destroy a home, usually no one is dieing.

I repeat “Also note that homes that are destroyed, the occupants are fully compensated, and yes I recognize its sad that we have to do that, but if a choice between us losing more LIVES or the other bad choice of compensating a pali family for losing their home, I choose LIFE over mere bricks and stones.”

So how much money has been given out to compensate for the loss of 200,000 homes? I never said all homes get compensations, when homes are destroyed because they are terrorists homes, homes that are used for cover for snipers, or even homes that Pali’s that fled in years back, indeed there is no compensation as I don’t think there should be any.

Secondly that number you got there is way over inflated even if its been in all of the past 50 years of conflict.

Oh and how much did the Brits compensate for the thousands of homes they destroyed after they stated that practice?? :roll:



Hey......you're the ex-IDF member not me you'd have a better hand on figures over there? and I already said its not much.

You made the insinuation that homes are being destroyed because of the anti terror security fence and I dispute it, so where are your figures to back up what YOU said?

200,000 homes? Again :roll: , that many for the anti terror security fence??? I don’t think so!!

Again how many because of that anti terror security fence?

I say very very few have been because of the anti terror security fence and you say...........?




Present....when......I don't remember IRA members houses being demolished? Again with houses, yes with regards to the Brits, that was the past (and something we got it from ) though the Americans it is the present.

5,000 against 200,000 :cantbeli: Again we got that practice from you, so great I see you accepted that fact, finally ;) …..as for numbers, yes you did it in 3 years, so I guess if you'd continued on staying there till now, well you do the math, but I can guarantee you it would be A LOT more.

Again its not about numbers, but rather simply you came up with this practice when you were here and well we got it from you and that is all my initial point was on.

So I guess when Brits do it (and initiate that practice) here its ok and no one mentions it but when Jews do it, well well here is your British outrage :roll: ….now that’s what I call pure hypocrisy!!




and as far as Christ's death it was in the past which is something I can't even bring up because it was in the past so stop trying to keep on bringing the UKs past actions into this thread!

I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous your arguements sounds "well you did it so why can't I"!!! no, except for house demolitions, much of what I talked about is present or rather recent past.

What's recent in your books because you're talking about Mexico, Texas and California? Wow you cant even follow what I am saying and when I say it :cantbeli: ….I clearly mentioned those places in conjunction with ONLY one issue (and that’s the right to build land) and that is the only issue I brought it up with.

As for what I meant by recent, I am referring to Iraq, Afghanistan and NATO in Bosnia, now I am sure there are other recent ones, but I am find with just looking at those ;)




As for home demolitions I merely pointed it out to show how absurd it is for you to harp on us when in fact we got that practice from YOU!!

My whole comparisons to what you did is merely to show your hypocrisy in condemning our actions (that I believe are actually unavoidable in combat) when your own nations has done a lot of the same, and no not only in the past am I talking about, but also the present or recent past.


Wow........5,000 against 200,000 really proves I'm a hypocriteYes so when you were here and in only three years time you started a practice that destroyed more then we have in all of the past four years in our war here, but you deplore when we do it, but yet are silent or never even knew or cared when you did it, not to mention that we actually got that practice from you…..yes that is hypocrisy





Please show me where we have done the same thing that Israel is doing now in the last 20yrs? no not same thing in general because again you don’t face the same as what we face (as I clearly pointed out to you before), but I can show where you have done some of the same actions, like targeted killings, killed innocent civilians, etc.. yes on those that you accuse us, you have done the same and again I believe with much less of a threat to your vital national security at you stake.

I remember when there were mortars targeted at No.10, hard to believe that I actually lived in a warzone! Yes so in a 10 years you got one mortar attack and that is a war zone?? Oh I guess New York is also a war zone because of those one attacks?……..listen facing one mortar or one attack as such, is not the same as being in a war zone where you are constantly bombarded with mortars, RPG’s bullets etc from all directions…

Secondly I already addressed before what is a war zone and what I am referring to.





And I understand that I'm ignorant to the ways of war but I should still be allowed to have a voice? I have made this very clear to you before, you have every right to express your opinion and indeed you are allowed to have a voice, all I am saying is at the same token, I can show you how your voice on military matters is ignorant (as you now even admit to) and as such you should understand your own ignorance and limitations on commenting on matters of war, when you your self admit that you are ignorant to the ways of war.

Basically in simpler terms, yes you are allowed a voice, though at the same token, I am allowed to show you how that voice is patently ignorant and blind to the realities that you decided to put forth your voice on ;)

I guess I'm not so ignorant now because I lived in a warzone too ;) No trust me you just IMO made a big fool out of yourself to ones on this board that did serve and indeed know what a real combat war zone is but yet have to read some armchair civilian try to say that being vigilant in a city or having one mortar hit a place is like the war zones that SOME of us soldiers have experienced in the urban combat zones that we have been in.

I hope for your sake you weren’t serious about trying to draw actual parallels, but somehow I don’t have faith that you weren’t serious :roll:

Lastly let me just end off by commenting on your long cut and pasts. Listen this is a military forum that soldiers, former soldiers or just general military enthusiasts like to come and converse, share experiences, share and view photos or even like to debate and to the latter I most certainly also enjoy, however what I find absurd and weak, is to have a debate with someone that ends up in the poster simply spewing forth reams of cut and pasts, I find it to be intellectually weak and frankly its not what a proper debate is supposed to be like with two people, I mean if you want some of that info to come here, then quote ONLY what exactly pertains to the opposing viewpoints and to the specifics of the discussion at hand and the rest link it (as I have done), for what you did above was insulting and frankly if I see that again well you can consider this debate over, for I try not to continue debating with what I find to be intellectually weak people when it comes to this subject. On the latter point let me just add that I have been here long enough to realize that when a debate gets as long as ours is, usually most of the rest of the forum has tuned out already and the debate is being mostly read by only you and me, so cutting and pasting long articles, which I did NOT bother to read (I read what you, the opposing debater wrote, but whole long cut and pastes side articles, well I didn’t bother to waste my time on), is simply a waste of time and is pointless to do.



P.S. Wow I am flattered that you took the time to place my name in your avatar location, though I would say no need to falsely flatter yourself as if you effect me that much where I feel the need to go after you, or take over your patio as you put it, hell I even said I wouldn’t mind going shooting with you, though now on second thought, I guess you are all armed and ready and I see even if I came over for that friendly shoot, after what happens to me, you’ll claim to the police that “hey he tried to take over my patio and well it was self defense yada yada… ;) actuualy on second thought, never mind, as long as we are both armed, I am not worried in the least about you getting off a first shot ;) :D


Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

what is up with the linning of this thread?

[IDFM203]

Well sorry I am late here, I have been very busy f late, hell I haven’t even posted anything here for almost a week now, so it wasn’t just this post. Anyways you knew it was coming and by the fact that you even put my name in your avatar, well that only tells me how much anticipation you have for my follow up post………..great……here enjoy…………..





I just get the impression that you want to downplay anything that's taken place elsewhere in the World, IMHO and I'm entitled to it! :cantbeli: hehe :lol: yes sir, indeed you are entitled to your opinion, as we all are, though just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean your right about it and frankly your opinion of my views are clearly false!

Though I certainly understand why you persist on claiming what your so-called impression is of me ;) :roll:

The suspense is killing me?? ahh? :roll: You already say and repeat your false impressions you get from me and I keep on showing you how they are clearly false and its ONLY in your “wild” imagination that you have conjured up what my views are, even though I never say or insinuate what your so called impression is of me.

As to why you do that, well who knows, though it seems quite likely that you simply cant argue based on facts or sane reasoning so you must make up stuff about me :roll:




I don’t downplay other conflicts, though when I see you overplay your situation as if its comparable to ours, when in reality its not, then I will point that out.....that is all.

How do I overplay? By trying to show your nation has gone through what we do on a daily basis and that you face similar to what we face in terms of the past fifty plus years, when in reality you don’t!!.





I don't remember comparing the two?,My first post in this thread was in response to the general comparison between both that I saw you and others engaged in, and my first post dwelt with how there is no comparison, what I saw from you was trying to show how you faced similar to what we face and I simply disagree for I contend what we face was much larger and on a much more intensive scale with a fundamentalist ideology of total destruction that makes what we face much different then what you face

Again I don't remember trying to compare the two? Again you tried to compare the two in how you feel (wrongly) that you experienced the same that we do, when in reality you don’t!!

Now understand and I certainly get that your nation has also experienced terrorism, however I just don’t think what you face and what we face daily are the same!!




Though I say again, you still did a lot of what we did in some of your conflicts, and I might add with much less vital national security at your stake, but yes I do admit you did it much less and its as such, simply because you don’t face what we do.

But you said you learnt these tactics from the Brits now it seems you didn't? tactics? Ahh? No I said Tactic, meaning ONLY one and that was home demolitions.

The other things I didn’t say we learnt from you, however my point there is that your hypocritical to point the finger solely at us when your own nation did a lot of the same actions as well in the conflicts that you have been involved in (and not just in the distant past).





Please don't forget you had the Catholics fighting Protestants so religion was involved yes religioun was involved, though there was no religious belief that you had to destroy all of Britain or there was no suicidal religious belief that encouraged suicide bombings, these are MAJOR differences in what you face and what we face.

I found this little titbit, you guys kept on saying that the IRA mainly targetted the Military, :cantbeli: :roll: whoa stop right there.

Now this is really getting absurd…..you have done this so many times now that I have lost track :roll: , for the umpteenth time, STOP PUTTING words into my mouth or claiming what you think we claimed when I never claimed as such.

I never said the IRA mainly targeted only the military? Point out where I said such a thing!!????

I simply said in terms of the size and scope and the intensity of attacks and the enemy you face vs the fundamentalist SUICIDAL enemies that we face, well both situations are not comparable, even though I have admitted that in both situations, our respective citizens have died (and I already explained how the common denominator of death does not mean both conflicts or what both face are the same, for they are not!!)

So indeed I ALWAYS recognized that your civilians, citizens as well as soldiers have died, all I merely point out is that in the past fifty plus years, the attacks and the number that you have experienced don’t even come close to the amount and the intensity that we have, nor do I think in recent history were you ever faced with total annihilation as we have been from the past fifty plus years by the hostile neighbors that we have.


The vicitms were mainly civilians!? not the Military ones you guys claimed? :cantbeli: Again point out where I claimed mainly military and not civilian? Come on I am waiting.





Yes, the IRAs goal was to get the British and Protestants out of NI? you’re a Brit and your asking me? :roll: All I know is that they didn’t have the stated goal of destroying all of Great Britain.


Hey, I'm just trying to confirm what I said......seeing as you know everything!? No I never claimed I know everything and certainly I am not as educated about your conflict as I am on mine, and on yours, I made a few statements claiming that as far as I know, the IRA had no stated goal of destroying great Britain and that is just one of the MAJOR differences to what we face, so up to now you have not contradicted what I just said, so I take it you cant.

Good, lets move on………… :D





You have been on this forum since Sept 2003(0.66% of total / 7.13 posts per day) I joined Feb 2004(0.16% of total / 3.90 posts per day) I would say based on this you post a hell of allot more than me? So in my 4-5months on here I can't say any thread on innocent Israelis's being killed hasn't jumped out at me yet! So please get off the hypocrisy tip! no no on this point alone, I don’t exactly call you a hypocrite (there are other points for that ;) ) , but merely one that doesn’t apply universal standards in when you are so outraged over what we do but remain silent over what is done to us.

Now since you have been on, I haven’t seen you post one post commenting on anything that has happened to us or on what we face.

Well you guys did do a great job at Entebbe Airport! wow through all your falsehoods out pops a bit of a sense of humor :D …who would have thought it ;) ………well I guess I can appreciate that……however that is all it is, for its clear from your real non-answer to what I said, my points above stands.





Woohah there nelly.......I talked about the total destruction in Rafah how the IDF not only destroyed homes the Zoo but even green houses? Are these people compensated for these loses or is it just seen as collateral damage? total destruction in rafah? :roll: You mean all of rafah we destroyed? :roll: I don’t think so!! And yes the small parts of it that we destroyed in that war zone, where in green houses, and in zoos and in houses, there were pali gunman firing from, ****y trapped mines and mortar firing, all in their efforts to defend those arms smuggling tunnels that they use to fire at our cities and towns.

You make it sound likek it was the landing at Normandy? was it that bad? what does Normandy have to do with anything? :roll: Anyways I am not going to play your game here, what I wrote above is very clear and yes indeed, what “we” faced in Gaza was indeed a all our urban combat in a full war zone. It’s a simple as that, now where it compares to is not in the realm of this discussion here.





Counter response????? *you* keep on telling me I'm clueless because I haven't served? :cantbeli: beeep wrong answer……..I keep on telling you your wrong for your comments show complete ignorance simply based on what you wrote, not just because you haven’t served but because as I have shown (and I make a case for it and not simply say you don’t know because you haven’t served), you have no concept of what we face or what is a real war zone as I explained in great detail and then I add I understand why you show the ignorance that you do, for you talk about things that as one that never served, you have no REAL concept of what you are talking about.

Now indeed there are some (Keyword SOME) that haven’t served that do know, but that’s not you ;)


Well thanks to you.......I just realized that I used to live in a warzone......England...we were constantly being told to be vigilant and watch out for suspect packages and such, you never knew when they might strike and as I said before they tried blowing up Hammersmith bridge which I had just driven across from Hammersmith a few hours before :| So you are comparing you being told to be vigilant to full combat in an all out urban war zone :cantbeli: :roll:


Again what I said was very clear (and if it wasn’t clear to you before, then let me make it clear to you now……..) what I said above, was not referring to how you live in your nation or even how I live in mine, but rather what’s its like to experience combat in a all out urban war zone and clearly since you never served, you don’t have any concept of what its like to be in all out urban combat in a urban war zone and as such your comments on that very subject just reeked of pure ignorance.

To further prove that you knew nothing of what you wrote before on war zones, I even wrote that I understand as such being that you never served in the military, and that was before you even confirmed to me that I was indeed correct in that yes you never have served in a military.

Your ignorance was very blatant and obvious for me (or anyone) to point out that clearly you never served!





No, you're telling me that everywhere the IDF is is a warzone? so by that I'm ignorant to everything the IDF does. Yes when the IDF goes in, it is a war zone simply by the fact that the palis make it as such when they use every inch of the land there, be it homes, green houses, zoos, to engage in a war, simply to protect their arms smuggling tunnels, where those tunnels we have every right to go in to stop.

Its not just about you being ignorant to what the IDF does but rather your simple ignorance to what a war zone is and what we face.

NI was a warzone seeing as the Military have been there for years and were constantly patrolling, so in a way we're both used to warzones except you served in the IDF and I didn't but I'll see if I can get in contact with my Great Uncles seeing as two of them are retired RM(I have no details at hand). I am talking about YOU, not about people you know.

Secondly your comment “we're both used to warzones”….excuse me!! :cantbeli: ahh?? We’re??? :cantbeli: No, YOU never were in one!!

From your comments so far, you have showed complete ignorance on what kind of war zones we face let alone in general what a real war zone is.


I think there's another thread on James Miller? ahh??

I repeat “Oh and as for what you just said now, So out of the thousands of reporters that are there we are all shooting at them? :roll: I belive Israel has the highest concentration of reporters then anywhere else in the world, yes I hear reports of them being shot at daily :roll: …..no, when it happens, its hardly “the IDF” doing it but rather a few soldiers have done it a few times, its like you have British soldiers that have done bad things a few times.

Secondly not all times is it clear to see if they are a reporter, and mistakes like that do happen unfortunately in a war zone but again you see a picture so you think it is but you never were in a APC in a war zone so you have no idea how easy or hard it is to spot.




Why in Rafah was it nessecery to detroy the Olive trees and the green houses or again is it classified as a warzone? First of all the U.S. did it in Iraq, but I guess only when Jews(Do You Mean Israeli?)do it to we point it out :roll:

Secondly if they fire from there, or use it as cover for snipers, then yes it is a war zone!!

So again anywhere the IDF goes is a warzone.......hhhmmmmm I don't recall reading anythiung on that in NI... Yes in NI the IRA had large arms smuggling tunnels that was dug from neighboring countries that they used to fire mortars, rockets and bullets daily and weekly at British towns and cities, and I guess also the Brits went in to stop those tunnels and then they were faced with IRA gunman that were firing from olive trees, green houses, homes and also everywhere and in all places, there were bombs and other deadly ****y traps, laden around everywhere :roll:

Yes I guess even I see now that after all you faced exactly what we faced :roll: …………..not!!

Gees, again in this case, when we went in indeed everywhere we went it was a war zone, simply by the fact that the Pali's made it into one when they fired from green houses, olive trees and homes, and placed all sorts of deadly ****y traps all over the place, simply all to protect those arms smuggling tunnels.



I say again, its sad when an innocent child is killed and we do not celebrate it when we commit that (unlike the plai's in general that do celebrate the loss of our civilians) and yes we aren’t perfect and in all our actions I wont justify every single one of them for indeed I know like in every military, we also have our few bad apples, but in general for the most part we do NOT purposely target civilians or children but when you have a lot of cases where the kids purposely put themselves in harms way or the gun man force them to do so, and they fire at us from within, well its unavoidable at times.

There was something on discovery the other day about the affect wars around the World have on kids and it went to Israel, at one point it focused on a down where Palistinian kids were walking to school with a Palistinian flag only to be attcked by Israeli stterlers while the IDF looked on and did nothing....do you know what town I'm talking about. First of all, what does this have to do with my above statement?? All I see here is more grasping for straws on your part :roll: …..you never can stop as I see it’s the only thing you can do in the absence of any truthful thoughts on the real realties that we face and how we respond.

Secondly, I don’t know of what town you are talking about and I guess I would like to see a credible link to it.

Thirdly I know that in general, we do as policy try to protect Pali's from any potential attacks that may emanate from any settlers.

Of course the settlers are allowed to have the right for self defense, but yes if it wasn’t, then its wrong and I and most Israelis are against that.

Just in general, it’s not a major problem, I mean for the most part, MOST settlers are very peaceful.

I mean yes I know of attacks, but they aren’t a big number, I mean hell, I ask in the past four years of conflict, how many pali’s have any setters killed?

Also how many plai’s have they attacked and how many were involved?

Lastly the settlers also get attacked, but of course I don’t see any comments from you on that :roll:




So what do you want me to say that what the IDF does is always justified? no not always, just I understand the realties of what we face and as such I believe I simply put the proper context of what the IDF is doing and what it really faces

I have said this before, we aren’t perfect and yes we do make mistakes (as does everyone else) and not everything we did for our defense in the past 50 plus years can I justify, but overall I know we for the most part do NOT intentionally target civilians of any kind and overall I believe we act just in our actions especially considering the real realties that we have had to face.

I still believe some things you guys did were over thetop but I also as you said think certain things had to be done. hey we aren’t perfect as I don’t think you are any one else is and I believe Acc. to your criteria, then your nations have also acted over the top at times.…………..anyways for the rest of what I want to say, read above your remark here.

I just want to add that I don’t mind criticism and you saying that we have acted over the top, but all too often I find by people of your ilk, in the need or the preference to fine over the top in almost everything even when its not the case, much like how the Pali’s accuse and define every act that we do as a massacre, even when clearly they aren’t :roll:




That doesn't tell me a thing, you seem to be so well educated on the subject so I thought you'd have references at hand? I guess not! ok ok so you want a reference, for indeed I am well educated on this, though I admit references are hard to find.





Anyways after a quick search I found two sites, one is a pali site (hardly a pro Israel site and you can see that after a quick glance from reading the rest there), and the other site is from the Jerusalem post.

1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.

For that link click Here (http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=3782&CategoryId=2)

This was an interresting read, thank you I also found this,

Di you know…blah blah blah…………………….





WOW....sorry got sidetracked hahaha ;) yes indeed I guess I should have expected you to continue on with your grasping for straws and going for any side issues simply to divert from the point that I proved to you :roll:

Listen, you cutting and pasting a whole long article simply further shows the lack of depth and knowledge on this conflict, a conflict that you decided to make tons of comments on….now listen I too can post tons of long articles that address every single point there and much much MORE, however that is not what a proper debate is and certainly not how this forum is supposed to be, so I wont go into that, however on home demolitions as it shows there (whether I accept their numbers or not) is that you did that and well all I am saying is that we got that practice from you.

(oh and on the articles, listen I never said we justify everything, so again we aren’t perfect, but believe me besides the many lies there, they leave out very important context to what they accuse us of doing and that’s critical to really understanding the conflict that we are in and what we face)



By Rafael Medoff - April 22, 2002. From: Jerusalem Post

"Demolishing the homes of Arab civilians... Shooting handcuffed prisoners... Forcing local Arabs to test areas where mines may have been planted..."
These sound like the sort of accusations made by British and other European officials concerning Israel's recent actions in Jenin. In fact, they are descriptions from official British documents concerning the methods used by the British authorities to combat Palestinian Arab terrorism in Jenin and elsewhere in 1938.

The documents were declassified by London in 1989. They provide details of the British Mandatory government's response to the assassination of a British district commissioner by a Palestinian Arab terrorist in Jenin in the summer of 1938.

Even after the suspected assassin was captured (and then shot dead while allegedly trying to escape), the British authorities decided that "a large portion of the town should be blown up" as punishment. On August 25 of that year, a British convoy brought 4,200 kilos of explosives to Jenin for that purpose.

When the troops left, there was little else remaining of the once-busy village except a pile of mangled masonry," The New York Times reported.


But I can't find anything on that? ahh?? What cant you find anything on? :roll: That the Brits purposely destroyed homes?? Well that cant be that you cant find anything on that for I showed you already two sources that they did, a practice that we copied from!!



, when your own nation does exactly the same actions that we have done and it does so now, in the past decade and much earlier then that, that is hypocrisy and that’s my point, not so much who learnt from who.

Is this also the case for the Israali settlements that are going up everywhere? you know the settlements constitute less then 5 percent of the land mass, so please tell me how they are going up everywhere? :roll:


Wow this is what I found?


* 1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.
Great and thats all we are talking about here.

Good.

The rest is not what this thread is about so I wont get caught up into it simply so you can further muddle the waters here to divert from the simple fact that in the space of three years, it was YOU, the Brits, that first initiated the practice of destroying homes.


Wow....big difference between 5,000 and 200,000 homs but I guess you guys just ran with it! :I never said your situation is like ours, get that very clear, however all I said was that we got that PRACTICE from you and well you did those actions in what I believe is not even the same situation as what we face.

Ok with that said, lets now do some examinations on what your saying here if I may……… ;)

First, a lot of the homes that we destroyed was in the midst of war (and that 200,000 figure I believe is exaggerated but that’s for another day and thread ;) ) and even that heavily biased site claims that some (well I say a lot) were destroyed in the war, meaning not simply we went to destroy them but rather in the normal course of a war where homes do get destroyed, unlike that initial British practice where the sole aim was to set out and destroy homes!!. Secondly most of those homes that were destroyed in the early years, were mostly empty homes and it was homes of people that fled on their own.

Lastly and more impotently as it pertains to you and your numbers, well you destroyed over 5000 in just three years there, much more then we have done in the past four years of intensive conflict that we have been in, now if you do that many in that short of a time, imagine you stayed there till now and put up with what we have to for over 50 plus years, well the number would also be A LOT higher then just that 5000, probably more like in our range or even higher.


Secondly yes its our land, for after acquiring land in a defensive war, well I believe we have the right to build on that land, I mean hell if not, then I would suspect that California, Arizona and Texas should be given back to Mexico and the rest should be given back to the Indians (and I can site examples from all over the world as such).

I mean in fact I believe we have a stronger case to build on our land (being that we attained it in defensive wars), then the U.S has to build on theirs.

Wow....lets pass it off, so again Israel is right everyone else is WRONG! :cantbeli: No, just everyone is hypocritical!! oh and I guess they are all right when they do it but when Jews do it is wrong :roll:

And yes on this we have every right to build on it being that we attained it in a defensive war.

Arguing simply because you say everyone says something is not a sound basis for an argument. No, stick to arguing on the merits of something and hell even if you disagree then make a sound case for it, but simply saying everyone (especially me as a Jew, yeah we know usually everyone is always right when its about us :roll: ) is not good answer in an argument…no, try harder next time, I am not buying your weak reply here!!




Secondly we aren’t talking about settlements, but rather about our security fence and well we should have the right to build it wherever we deem necessary to protect our lives.

They can't just come in one day and take it it's a bit more drawn out than that plus the govermnment form my understanding will pay market valure for the property. Yes and we have also compensated them for destroyed homes when the homes are destroyed for the anti terror security fence.

200,000 :cantbeli: :cantbeli: Wow so you can prove we have destroyed 200,000 homes for this anti terror security fence?

Let me see a link to that!!!!

Go read again clearly my words you just responded to




Btw I ask again, how many homes have we destroyed because of that fence and site a reputable source for that figure for I don’t think we have destroyed many.

Well I'm sure it's in there with the other 200,000 homes! So again how many homes have we destroyed for the anti terror fence? you made statements before that clearly implied a lot, I dispute that and yet you have still not shown me any credible number as to how many we have because of this anti terror security fence.

I guess this shows you cant!! Simply because the fact that we haven’t destroyed many for that fence!!





But it's not just bricks here innocent people are dieing! no before we are talking about the homes being destroyed and if thats justified and I say yes and also when we do destroy a home, usually no one is dieing.

I repeat “Also note that homes that are destroyed, the occupants are fully compensated, and yes I recognize its sad that we have to do that, but if a choice between us losing more LIVES or the other bad choice of compensating a pali family for losing their home, I choose LIFE over mere bricks and stones.”

So how much money has been given out to compensate for the loss of 200,000 homes? I never said all homes get compensations, when homes are destroyed because they are terrorists homes, homes that are used for cover for snipers, or even homes that Pali’s that fled in years back, indeed there is no compensation as I don’t think there should be any.

Secondly that number you got there is way over inflated even if its been in all of the past 50 years of conflict.

Oh and how much did the Brits compensate for the thousands of homes they destroyed after they stated that practice?? :roll:



Hey......you're the ex-IDF member not me you'd have a better hand on figures over there? and I already said its not much.

You made the insinuation that homes are being destroyed because of the anti terror security fence and I dispute it, so where are your figures to back up what YOU said?

200,000 homes? Again :roll: , that many for the anti terror security fence??? I don’t think so!!

Again how many because of that anti terror security fence?

I say very very few have been because of the anti terror security fence and you say...........?




Present....when......I don't remember IRA members houses being demolished? Again with houses, yes with regards to the Brits, that was the past (and something we got it from ) though the Americans it is the present.

5,000 against 200,000 :cantbeli: Again we got that practice from you, so great I see you accepted that fact, finally ;) …..as for numbers, yes you did it in 3 years, so I guess if you'd continued on staying there till now, well you do the math, but I can guarantee you it would be A LOT more.

Again its not about numbers, but rather simply you came up with this practice when you were here and well we got it from you and that is all my initial point was on.

So I guess when Brits do it (and initiate that practice) here its ok and no one mentions it but when Jews do it, well well here is your British outrage :roll: ….now that’s what I call pure hypocrisy!!




and as far as Christ's death it was in the past which is something I can't even bring up because it was in the past so stop trying to keep on bringing the UKs past actions into this thread!

I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous your arguements sounds "well you did it so why can't I"!!! no, except for house demolitions, much of what I talked about is present or rather recent past.

What's recent in your books because you're talking about Mexico, Texas and California? Wow you cant even follow what I am saying and when I say it :cantbeli: ….I clearly mentioned those places in conjunction with ONLY one issue (and that’s the right to build land) and that is the only issue I brought it up with.

As for what I meant by recent, I am referring to Iraq, Afghanistan and NATO in Bosnia, now I am sure there are other recent ones, but I am find with just looking at those ;)




As for home demolitions I merely pointed it out to show how absurd it is for you to harp on us when in fact we got that practice from YOU!!

My whole comparisons to what you did is merely to show your hypocrisy in condemning our actions (that I believe are actually unavoidable in combat) when your own nations has done a lot of the same, and no not only in the past am I talking about, but also the present or recent past.


Wow........5,000 against 200,000 really proves I'm a hypocriteYes so when you were here and in only three years time you started a practice that destroyed more then we have in all of the past four years in our war here, but you deplore when we do it, but yet are silent or never even knew or cared when you did it, not to mention that we actually got that practice from you…..yes that is hypocrisy





Please show me where we have done the same thing that Israel is doing now in the last 20yrs? no not same thing in general because again you don’t face the same as what we face (as I clearly pointed out to you before), but I can show where you have done some of the same actions, like targeted killings, killed innocent civilians, etc.. yes on those that you accuse us, you have done the same and again I believe with much less of a threat to your vital national security at you stake.

I remember when there were mortars targeted at No.10, hard to believe that I actually lived in a warzone! Yes so in a 10 years you got one mortar attack and that is a war zone?? Oh I guess New York is also a war zone because of those one attacks?……..listen facing one mortar or one attack as such, is not the same as being in a war zone where you are constantly bombarded with mortars, RPG’s bullets etc from all directions…

Secondly I already addressed before what is a war zone and what I am referring to.





And I understand that I'm ignorant to the ways of war but I should still be allowed to have a voice? I have made this very clear to you before, you have every right to express your opinion and indeed you are allowed to have a voice, all I am saying is at the same token, I can show you how your voice on military matters is ignorant (as you now even admit to) and as such you should understand your own ignorance and limitations on commenting on matters of war, when you your self admit that you are ignorant to the ways of war.

Basically in simpler terms, yes you are allowed a voice, though at the same token, I am allowed to show you how that voice is patently ignorant and blind to the realities that you decided to put forth your voice on ;)

I guess I'm not so ignorant now because I lived in a warzone too ;) No trust me you just IMO made a big fool out of yourself to ones on this board that did serve and indeed know what a real combat war zone is but yet have to read some armchair civilian try to say that being vigilant in a city or having one mortar hit a place is like the war zones that SOME of us soldiers have experienced in the urban combat zones that we have been in.

I hope for your sake you weren’t serious about trying to draw actual parallels, but somehow I don’t have faith that you weren’t serious :roll:

Lastly let me just end off by commenting on your long cut and pasts. Listen this is a military forum that soldiers, former soldiers or just general military enthusiasts like to come and converse, share experiences, share and view photos or even like to debate and to the latter I most certainly also enjoy, however what I find absurd and weak, is to have a debate with someone that ends up in the poster simply spewing forth reams of cut and pasts, I find it to be intellectually weak and frankly its not what a proper debate is supposed to be like with two people, I mean if you want some of that info to come here, then quote ONLY what exactly pertains to the opposing viewpoints and to the specifics of the discussion at hand and the rest link it (as I have done), for what you did above was insulting and frankly if I see that again well you can consider this debate over, for I try not to continue debating with what I find to be intellectually weak people when it comes to this subject. On the latter point let me just add that I have been here long enough to realize that when a debate gets as long as ours is, usually most of the rest of the forum has tuned out already and the debate is being mostly read by only you and me, so cutting and pasting long articles, which I did NOT bother to read (I read what you, the opposing debater wrote, but whole long cut and pastes side articles, well I didn’t bother to waste my time on), is simply a waste of time and is pointless to do.



P.S. Wow I am flattered that you took the time to place my name in your avatar location, though I would say no need to falsely flatter yourself as if you effect me that much where I feel the need to go after you, or take over your patio as you put it, hell I even said I wouldn’t mind going shooting with you, though now on second thought, I guess you are all armed and ready and I see even if I came over for that friendly shoot, after what happens to me, you’ll claim to the police that “hey he tried to take over my patio and well it was self defense yada yada… ;)


Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

Well sorry I am late here, I have been very busy f late, hell I haven’t even posted anything here for almost a week now, so it wasn’t just this post. Anyways you knew it was coming and by the fact that you even put my name in your avatar, well that only tells me how much anticipation you have for my follow up post………..great……here enjoy…………..





I just get the impression that you want to downplay anything that's taken place elsewhere in the World, IMHO and I'm entitled to it! :cantbeli: hehe :lol: yes sir, indeed you are entitled to your opinion, as we all are, though just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean your right about it and frankly your opinion of my views are clearly false!

Though I certainly understand why you persist on claiming what your so-called impression is of me ;) :roll:

The suspense is killing me?? ahh? :roll: You already say and repeat your false impressions you get from me and I keep on showing you how they are clearly false and its ONLY in your “wild” imagination that you have conjured up what my views are, even though I never say or insinuate what your so called impression is of me.

As to why you do that, well who knows, though it seems quite likely that you simply cant argue based on facts or sane reasoning so you must make up stuff about me :roll:




I don’t downplay other conflicts, though when I see you overplay your situation as if its comparable to ours, when in reality its not, then I will point that out.....that is all.

How do I overplay? By trying to show your nation has gone through what we do on a daily basis and that you face similar to what we face in terms of the past fifty plus years, when in reality you don’t!!.





I don't remember comparing the two?,My first post in this thread was in response to the general comparison between both that I saw you and others engaged in, and my first post dwelt with how there is no comparison, what I saw from you was trying to show how you faced similar to what we face and I simply disagree for I contend what we face was much larger and on a much more intensive scale with a fundamentalist ideology of total destruction that makes what we face much different then what you face

Again I don't remember trying to compare the two? Again you tried to compare the two in how you feel (wrongly) that you experienced the same that we do, when in reality you don’t!!

Now understand and I certainly get that your nation has also experienced terrorism, however I just don’t think what you face and what we face daily are the same!!




Though I say again, you still did a lot of what we did in some of your conflicts, and I might add with much less vital national security at your stake, but yes I do admit you did it much less and its as such, simply because you don’t face what we do.

But you said you learnt these tactics from the Brits now it seems you didn't? tactics? Ahh? No I said Tactic, meaning ONLY one and that was home demolitions.

The other things I didn’t say we learnt from you, however my point there is that your hypocritical to point the finger solely at us when your own nation did a lot of the same actions as well in the conflicts that you have been involved in (and not just in the distant past).





Please don't forget you had the Catholics fighting Protestants so religion was involved yes religioun was involved, though there was no religious belief that you had to destroy all of Britain or there was no suicidal religious belief that encouraged suicide bombings, these are MAJOR differences in what you face and what we face.

I found this little titbit, you guys kept on saying that the IRA mainly targetted the Military, :cantbeli: :roll: whoa stop right there.

Now this is really getting absurd…..you have done this so many times now that I have lost track :roll: , for the umpteenth time, STOP PUTTING words into my mouth or claiming what you think we claimed when I never claimed as such.

I never said the IRA mainly targeted only the military? Point out where I said such a thing!!????

I simply said in terms of the size and scope and the intensity of attacks and the enemy you face vs the fundamentalist SUICIDAL enemies that we face, well both situations are not comparable, even though I have admitted that in both situations, our respective citizens have died (and I already explained how the common denominator of death does not mean both conflicts or what both face are the same, for they are not!!)

So indeed I ALWAYS recognized that your civilians, citizens as well as soldiers have died, all I merely point out is that in the past fifty plus years, the attacks and the number that you have experienced don’t even come close to the amount and the intensity that we have, nor do I think in recent history were you ever faced with total annihilation as we have been from the past fifty plus years by the hostile neighbors that we have.


The vicitms were mainly civilians!? not the Military ones you guys claimed? :cantbeli: Again point out where I claimed mainly military and not civilian? Come on I am waiting.





Yes, the IRAs goal was to get the British and Protestants out of NI? you’re a Brit and your asking me? :roll: All I know is that they didn’t have the stated goal of destroying all of Great Britain.


Hey, I'm just trying to confirm what I said......seeing as you know everything!? No I never claimed I know everything and certainly I am not as educated about your conflict as I am on mine, and on yours, I made a few statements claiming that as far as I know, the IRA had no stated goal of destroying great Britain and that is just one of the MAJOR differences to what we face, so up to now you have not contradicted what I just said, so I take it you cant.

Good, lets move on………… :D





You have been on this forum since Sept 2003(0.66% of total / 7.13 posts per day) I joined Feb 2004(0.16% of total / 3.90 posts per day) I would say based on this you post a hell of allot more than me? So in my 4-5months on here I can't say any thread on innocent Israelis's being killed hasn't jumped out at me yet! So please get off the hypocrisy tip! no no on this point alone, I don’t exactly call you a hypocrite (there are other points for that ;) ) , but merely one that doesn’t apply universal standards in when you are so outraged over what we do but remain silent over what is done to us.

Now since you have been on, I haven’t seen you post one post commenting on anything that has happened to us or on what we face.

Well you guys did do a great job at Entebbe Airport! wow through all your falsehoods out pops a bit of a sense of humor :D …who would have thought it ;) ………well I guess I can appreciate that……however that is all it is, for its clear from your real non-answer to what I said, my points above stands.





Woohah there nelly.......I talked about the total destruction in Rafah how the IDF not only destroyed homes the Zoo but even green houses? Are these people compensated for these loses or is it just seen as collateral damage? total destruction in rafah? :roll: You mean all of rafah we destroyed? :roll: I don’t think so!! And yes the small parts of it that we destroyed in that war zone, where in green houses, and in zoos and in houses, there were pali gunman firing from, ****y trapped mines and mortar firing, all in their efforts to defend those arms smuggling tunnels that they use to fire at our cities and towns.

You make it sound likek it was the landing at Normandy? was it that bad? what does Normandy have to do with anything? :roll: Anyways I am not going to play your game here, what I wrote above is very clear and yes indeed, what “we” faced in Gaza was indeed a all our urban combat in a full war zone. It’s a simple as that, now where it compares to is not in the realm of this discussion here.





Counter response????? *you* keep on telling me I'm clueless because I haven't served? :cantbeli: beeep wrong answer……..I keep on telling you your wrong for your comments show complete ignorance simply based on what you wrote, not just because you haven’t served but because as I have shown (and I make a case for it and not simply say you don’t know because you haven’t served), you have no concept of what we face or what is a real war zone as I explained in great detail and then I add I understand why you show the ignorance that you do, for you talk about things that as one that never served, you have no REAL concept of what you are talking about.

Now indeed there are some (Keyword SOME) that haven’t served that do know, but that’s not you ;)


Well thanks to you.......I just realized that I used to live in a warzone......England...we were constantly being told to be vigilant and watch out for suspect packages and such, you never knew when they might strike and as I said before they tried blowing up Hammersmith bridge which I had just driven across from Hammersmith a few hours before :| So you are comparing you being told to be vigilant to full combat in an all out urban war zone :cantbeli: :roll:


Again what I said was very clear (and if it wasn’t clear to you before, then let me make it clear to you now……..) what I said above, was not referring to how you live in your nation or even how I live in mine, but rather what’s its like to experience combat in a all out urban war zone and clearly since you never served, you don’t have any concept of what its like to be in all out urban combat in a urban war zone and as such your comments on that very subject just reeked of pure ignorance.

To further prove that you knew nothing of what you wrote before on war zones, I even wrote that I understand as such being that you never served in the military, and that was before you even confirmed to me that I was indeed correct in that yes you never have served in a military.

Your ignorance was very blatant and obvious for me (or anyone) to point out that clearly you never served!





No, you're telling me that everywhere the IDF is is a warzone? so by that I'm ignorant to everything the IDF does. Yes when the IDF goes in, it is a war zone simply by the fact that the palis make it as such when they use every inch of the land there, be it homes, green houses, zoos, to engage in a war, simply to protect their arms smuggling tunnels, where those tunnels we have every right to go in to stop.

Its not just about you being ignorant to what the IDF does but rather your simple ignorance to what a war zone is and what we face.

NI was a warzone seeing as the Military have been there for years and were constantly patrolling, so in a way we're both used to warzones except you served in the IDF and I didn't but I'll see if I can get in contact with my Great Uncles seeing as two of them are retired RM(I have no details at hand). I am talking about YOU, not about people you know.

Secondly your comment “we're both used to warzones”….excuse me!! :cantbeli: ahh?? We’re??? :cantbeli: No, YOU never were in one!!

From your comments so far, you have showed complete ignorance on what kind of war zones we face let alone in general what a real war zone is.


I think there's another thread on James Miller? ahh??

I repeat “Oh and as for what you just said now, So out of the thousands of reporters that are there we are all shooting at them? :roll: I belive Israel has the highest concentration of reporters then anywhere else in the world, yes I hear reports of them being shot at daily :roll: …..no, when it happens, its hardly “the IDF” doing it but rather a few soldiers have done it a few times, its like you have British soldiers that have done bad things a few times.

Secondly not all times is it clear to see if they are a reporter, and mistakes like that do happen unfortunately in a war zone but again you see a picture so you think it is but you never were in a APC in a war zone so you have no idea how easy or hard it is to spot.




Why in Rafah was it nessecery to detroy the Olive trees and the green houses or again is it classified as a warzone? First of all the U.S. did it in Iraq, but I guess only when Jews(Do You Mean Israeli?)do it to we point it out :roll:

Secondly if they fire from there, or use it as cover for snipers, then yes it is a war zone!!

So again anywhere the IDF goes is a warzone.......hhhmmmmm I don't recall reading anythiung on that in NI... Yes in NI the IRA had large arms smuggling tunnels that was dug from neighboring countries that they used to fire mortars, rockets and bullets daily and weekly at British towns and cities, and I guess also the Brits went in to stop those tunnels and then they were faced with IRA gunman that were firing from olive trees, green houses, homes and also everywhere and in all places, there were bombs and other deadly ****y traps, laden around everywhere :roll:

Yes I guess even I see now that after all you faced exactly what we faced :roll: …………..not!!

Gees, again in this case, when we went in indeed everywhere we went it was a war zone, simply by the fact that the Pali's made it into one when they fired from green houses, olive trees and homes, and placed all sorts of deadly ****y traps all over the place, simply all to protect those arms smuggling tunnels.



I say again, its sad when an innocent child is killed and we do not celebrate it when we commit that (unlike the plai's in general that do celebrate the loss of our civilians) and yes we aren’t perfect and in all our actions I wont justify every single one of them for indeed I know like in every military, we also have our few bad apples, but in general for the most part we do NOT purposely target civilians or children but when you have a lot of cases where the kids purposely put themselves in harms way or the gun man force them to do so, and they fire at us from within, well its unavoidable at times.

There was something on discovery the other day about the affect wars around the World have on kids and it went to Israel, at one point it focused on a down where Palistinian kids were walking to school with a Palistinian flag only to be attcked by Israeli stterlers while the IDF looked on and did nothing....do you know what town I'm talking about. First of all, what does this have to do with my above statement?? All I see here is more grasping for straws on your part :roll: …..you never can stop as I see it’s the only thing you can do in the absence of any truthful thoughts on the real realties that we face and how we respond.

Secondly, I don’t know of what town you are talking about and I guess I would like to see a credible link to it.

Thirdly I know that in general, we do as policy try to protect Pali's from any potential attacks that may emanate from any settlers.

Of course the settlers are allowed to have the right for self defense, but yes if it wasn’t, then its wrong and I and most Israelis are against that.

Just in general, it’s not a major problem, I mean for the most part, MOST settlers are very peaceful.

I mean yes I know of attacks, but they aren’t a big number, I mean hell, I ask in the past four years of conflict, how many pali’s have any setters killed?

Also how many plai’s have they attacked and how many were involved?

Lastly the settlers also get attacked, but of course I don’t see any comments from you on that :roll:




So what do you want me to say that what the IDF does is always justified? no not always, just I understand the realties of what we face and as such I believe I simply put the proper context of what the IDF is doing and what it really faces

I have said this before, we aren’t perfect and yes we do make mistakes (as does everyone else) and not everything we did for our defense in the past 50 plus years can I justify, but overall I know we for the most part do NOT intentionally target civilians of any kind and overall I believe we act just in our actions especially considering the real realties that we have had to face.

I still believe some things you guys did were over thetop but I also as you said think certain things had to be done. hey we aren’t perfect as I don’t think you are any one else is and I believe Acc. to your criteria, then your nations have also acted over the top at times.…………..anyways for the rest of what I want to say, read above your remark here.

I just want to add that I don’t mind criticism and you saying that we have acted over the top, but all too often I find by people of your ilk, in the need or the preference to fine over the top in almost everything even when its not the case, much like how the Pali’s accuse and define every act that we do as a massacre, even when clearly they aren’t :roll:




That doesn't tell me a thing, you seem to be so well educated on the subject so I thought you'd have references at hand? I guess not! ok ok so you want a reference, for indeed I am well educated on this, though I admit references are hard to find.





Anyways after a quick search I found two sites, one is a pali site (hardly a pro Israel site and you can see that after a quick glance from reading the rest there), and the other site is from the Jerusalem post.

1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.

For that link click Here (http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=3782&CategoryId=2)

This was an interresting read, thank you I also found this,

Di you know…blah blah blah…………………….





WOW....sorry got sidetracked hahaha ;) yes indeed I guess I should have expected you to continue on with your grasping for straws and going for any side issues simply to divert from the point that I proved to you :roll:

Listen, you cutting and pasting a whole long article simply further shows the lack of depth and knowledge on this conflict, a conflict that you decided to make tons of comments on….now listen I too can post tons of long articles that address every single point there and much much MORE, however that is not what a proper debate is and certainly not how this forum is supposed to be, so I wont go into that, however on home demolitions as it shows there (whether I accept their numbers or not) is that you did that and well all I am saying is that we got that practice from you.

(oh and on the articles, listen I never said we justify everything, so again we aren’t perfect, but believe me besides the many lies there, they leave out very important context to what they accuse us of doing and that’s critical to really understanding the conflict that we are in and what we face)



By Rafael Medoff - April 22, 2002. From: Jerusalem Post

"Demolishing the homes of Arab civilians... Shooting handcuffed prisoners... Forcing local Arabs to test areas where mines may have been planted..."
These sound like the sort of accusations made by British and other European officials concerning Israel's recent actions in Jenin. In fact, they are descriptions from official British documents concerning the methods used by the British authorities to combat Palestinian Arab terrorism in Jenin and elsewhere in 1938.

The documents were declassified by London in 1989. They provide details of the British Mandatory government's response to the assassination of a British district commissioner by a Palestinian Arab terrorist in Jenin in the summer of 1938.

Even after the suspected assassin was captured (and then shot dead while allegedly trying to escape), the British authorities decided that "a large portion of the town should be blown up" as punishment. On August 25 of that year, a British convoy brought 4,200 kilos of explosives to Jenin for that purpose.

When the troops left, there was little else remaining of the once-busy village except a pile of mangled masonry," The New York Times reported.


But I can't find anything on that? ahh?? What cant you find anything on? :roll: That the Brits purposely destroyed homes?? Well that cant be that you cant find anything on that for I showed you already two sources that they did, a practice that we copied from!!



, when your own nation does exactly the same actions that we have done and it does so now, in the past decade and much earlier then that, that is hypocrisy and that’s my point, not so much who learnt from who.

Is this also the case for the Israali settlements that are going up everywhere? you know the settlements constitute less then 5 percent of the land mass, so please tell me how they are going up everywhere? :roll:


Wow this is what I found?


* 1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.
Great and thats all we are talking about here.

Good.

The rest is not what this thread is about so I wont get caught up into it simply so you can further muddle the waters here to divert from the simple fact that in the space of three years, it was YOU, the Brits, that first initiated the practice of destroying homes.


Wow....big difference between 5,000 and 200,000 homs but I guess you guys just ran with it! :I never said your situation is like ours, get that very clear, however all I said was that we got that PRACTICE from you and well you did those actions in what I believe is not even the same situation as what we face.

Ok with that said, lets now do some examinations on what your saying here if I may……… ;)

First, a lot of the homes that we destroyed was in the midst of war (and that 200,000 figure I believe is exaggerated but that’s for another day and thread ;) ) and even that heavily biased site claims that some (well I say a lot) were destroyed in the war, meaning not simply we went to destroy them but rather in the normal course of a war where homes do get destroyed, unlike that initial British practice where the sole aim was to set out and destroy homes!!. Secondly most of those homes that were destroyed in the early years, were mostly empty homes and it was homes of people that fled on their own.

Lastly and more impotently as it pertains to you and your numbers, well you destroyed over 5000 in just three years there, much more then we have done in the past four years of intensive conflict that we have been in, now if you do that many in that short of a time, imagine you stayed there till now and put up with what we have to for over 50 plus years, well the number would also be A LOT higher then just that 5000, probably more like in our range or even higher.


Secondly yes its our land, for after acquiring land in a defensive war, well I believe we have the right to build on that land, I mean hell if not, then I would suspect that California, Arizona and Texas should be given back to Mexico and the rest should be given back to the Indians (and I can site examples from all over the world as such).

I mean in fact I believe we have a stronger case to build on our land (being that we attained it in defensive wars), then the U.S has to build on theirs.

Wow....lets pass it off, so again Israel is right everyone else is WRONG! :cantbeli: No, just everyone is hypocritical!! oh and I guess they are all right when they do it but when Jews do it is wrong :roll:

And yes on this we have every right to build on it being that we attained it in a defensive war.

Arguing simply because you say everyone says something is not a sound basis for an argument. No, stick to arguing on the merits of something and hell even if you disagree then make a sound case for it, but simply saying everyone (especially me as a Jew, yeah we know usually everyone is always right when its about us :roll: ) is not good answer in an argument…no, try harder next time, I am not buying your weak reply here!!




Secondly we aren’t talking about settlements, but rather about our security fence and well we should have the right to build it wherever we deem necessary to protect our lives.

They can't just come in one day and take it it's a bit more drawn out than that plus the govermnment form my understanding will pay market valure for the property. Yes and we have also compensated them for destroyed homes when the homes are destroyed for the anti terror security fence.

200,000 :cantbeli: :cantbeli: Wow so you can prove we have destroyed 200,000 homes for this anti terror security fence?

Let me see a link to that!!!!

Go read again clearly my words you just responded to




Btw I ask again, how many homes have we destroyed because of that fence and site a reputable source for that figure for I don’t think we have destroyed many.

Well I'm sure it's in there with the other 200,000 homes! So again how many homes have we destroyed for the anti terror fence? you made statements before that clearly implied a lot, I dispute that and yet you have still not shown me any credible number as to how many we have because of this anti terror security fence.

I guess this shows you cant!! Simply because the fact that we haven’t destroyed many for that fence!!





But it's not just bricks here innocent people are dieing! no before we are talking about the homes being destroyed and if thats justified and I say yes and also when we do destroy a home, usually no one is dieing.

I repeat “Also note that homes that are destroyed, the occupants are fully compensated, and yes I recognize its sad that we have to do that, but if a choice between us losing more LIVES or the other bad choice of compensating a pali family for losing their home, I choose LIFE over mere bricks and stones.”

So how much money has been given out to compensate for the loss of 200,000 homes? I never said all homes get compensations, when homes are destroyed because they are terrorists homes, homes that are used for cover for snipers, or even homes that Pali’s that fled in years back, indeed there is no compensation as I don’t think there should be any.

Secondly that number you got there is way over inflated even if its been in all of the past 50 years of conflict.

Oh and how much did the Brits compensate for the thousands of homes they destroyed after they stated that practice?? :roll:



Hey......you're the ex-IDF member not me you'd have a better hand on figures over there? and I already said its not much.

You made the insinuation that homes are being destroyed because of the anti terror security fence and I dispute it, so where are your figures to back up what YOU said?

200,000 homes? Again :roll: , that many for the anti terror security fence??? I don’t think so!!

Again how many because of that anti terror security fence?

I say very very few have been because of the anti terror security fence and you say...........?




Present....when......I don't remember IRA members houses being demolished? Again with houses, yes with regards to the Brits, that was the past (and something we got it from ) though the Americans it is the present.

5,000 against 200,000 :cantbeli: Again we got that practice from you, so great I see you accepted that fact, finally ;) …..as for numbers, yes you did it in 3 years, so I guess if you'd continued on staying there till now, well you do the math, but I can guarantee you it would be A LOT more.

Again its not about numbers, but rather simply you came up with this practice when you were here and well we got it from you and that is all my initial point was on.

So I guess when Brits do it (and initiate that practice) here its ok and no one mentions it but when Jews do it, well well here is your British outrage :roll: ….now that’s what I call pure hypocrisy!!




and as far as Christ's death it was in the past which is something I can't even bring up because it was in the past so stop trying to keep on bringing the UKs past actions into this thread!

I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous your arguements sounds "well you did it so why can't I"!!! no, except for house demolitions, much of what I talked about is present or rather recent past.

What's recent in your books because you're talking about Mexico, Texas and California? Wow you cant even follow what I am saying and when I say it :cantbeli: ….I clearly mentioned those places in conjunction with ONLY one issue (and that’s the right to build land) and that is the only issue I brought it up with.

As for what I meant by recent, I am referring to Iraq, Afghanistan and NATO in Bosnia, now I am sure there are other recent ones, but I am find with just looking at those ;)




As for home demolitions I merely pointed it out to show how absurd it is for you to harp on us when in fact we got that practice from YOU!!

My whole comparisons to what you did is merely to show your hypocrisy in condemning our actions (that I believe are actually unavoidable in combat) when your own nations has done a lot of the same, and no not only in the past am I talking about, but also the present or recent past.


Wow........5,000 against 200,000 really proves I'm a hypocriteYes so when you were here and in only three years time you started a practice that destroyed more then we have in all of the past four years in our war here, but you deplore when we do it, but yet are silent or never even knew or cared when you did it, not to mention that we actually got that practice from you…..yes that is hypocrisy





Please show me where we have done the same thing that Israel is doing now in the last 20yrs? no not same thing in general because again you don’t face the same as what we face (as I clearly pointed out to you before), but I can show where you have done some of the same actions, like targeted killings, killed innocent civilians, etc.. yes on those that you accuse us, you have done the same and again I believe with much less of a threat to your vital national security at you stake.

I remember when there were mortars targeted at No.10, hard to believe that I actually lived in a warzone! Yes so in a 10 years you got one mortar attack and that is a war zone?? Oh I guess New York is also a war zone because of those one attacks?……..listen facing one mortar or one attack as such, is not the same as being in a war zone where you are constantly bombarded with mortars, RPG’s bullets etc from all directions…

Secondly I already addressed before what is a war zone and what I am referring to.





And I understand that I'm ignorant to the ways of war but I should still be allowed to have a voice? I have made this very clear to you before, you have every right to express your opinion and indeed you are allowed to have a voice, all I am saying is at the same token, I can show you how your voice on military matters is ignorant (as you now even admit to) and as such you should understand your own ignorance and limitations on commenting on matters of war, when you your self admit that you are ignorant to the ways of war.

Basically in simpler terms, yes you are allowed a voice, though at the same token, I am allowed to show you how that voice is patently ignorant and blind to the realities that you decided to put forth your voice on ;)

I guess I'm not so ignorant now because I lived in a warzone too ;) No trust me you just IMO made a big fool out of yourself to ones on this board that did serve and indeed know what a real combat war zone is but yet have to read some armchair civilian try to say that being vigilant in a city or having one mortar hit a place is like the war zones that SOME of us soldiers have experienced in the urban combat zones that we have been in.

I hope for your sake you weren’t serious about trying to draw actual parallels, but somehow I don’t have faith that you weren’t serious :roll:

Lastly let me just end off by commenting on your long cut and pasts. Listen this is a military forum that soldiers, former soldiers or just general military enthusiasts like to come and converse, share experiences, share and view photos or even like to debate and to the latter I most certainly also enjoy, however what I find absurd and weak, is to have a debate with someone that ends up in the poster simply spewing forth reams of cut and pasts, I find it to be intellectually weak and frankly its not what a proper debate is supposed to be like with two people, I mean if you want some of that info to come here, then quote ONLY what exactly pertains to the opposing viewpoints and to the specifics of the discussion at hand and the rest link it (as I have done), for what you did above was insulting and frankly if I see that again well you can consider this debate over, for I try not to continue debating with what I find to be intellectually weak people when it comes to this subject. On the latter point let me just add that I have been here long enough to realize that when a debate gets as long as ours is, usually most of the rest of the forum has tuned out already and the debate is being mostly read by only you and me, so cutting and pasting long articles, which I did NOT bother to read (I read what you, the opposing debater wrote, but whole long cut and pastes side articles, well I didn’t bother to waste my time on), is simply a waste of time and is pointless to do.



P.S. Wow I am flattered that you took the time to place my name in your avatar location, though I would say no need to falsely flatter yourself as if you effect me that much where I feel the need to go after you, or take over your patio as you put it, hell I even said I wouldn’t mind going shooting with you, though now on second thought, I guess you are all armed and ready and I see even if I came over for that friendly shoot, after what happens to me, you’ll claim to the police that “hey he tried to take over my patio and well it was self defense yada yada… ;)


Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

Well sorry I am late here, I have been very busy f late, hell I haven’t even posted anything here for almost a week now, so it wasn’t just this post. Anyways you knew it was coming and by the fact that you even put my name in your avatar, well that only tells me how much anticipation you have for my follow up post………..great……here enjoy…………..





I just get the impression that you want to downplay anything that's taken place elsewhere in the World, IMHO and I'm entitled to it! :cantbeli: hehe :lol: yes sir, indeed you are entitled to your opinion, as we all are, though just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean your right about it and frankly your opinion of my views are clearly false!

Though I certainly understand why you persist on claiming what your so-called impression is of me ;) :roll:

The suspense is killing me?? ahh? :roll: You already say and repeat your false impressions you get from me and I keep on showing you how they are clearly false and its ONLY in your “wild” imagination that you have conjured up what my views are, even though I never say or insinuate what your so called impression is of me.

As to why you do that, well who knows, though it seems quite likely that you simply cant argue based on facts or sane reasoning so you must make up stuff about me :roll:




I don’t downplay other conflicts, though when I see you overplay your situation as if its comparable to ours, when in reality its not, then I will point that out.....that is all.

How do I overplay? By trying to show your nation has gone through what we do on a daily basis and that you face similar to what we face in terms of the past fifty plus years, when in reality you don’t!!.





I don't remember comparing the two?,My first post in this thread was in response to the general comparison between both that I saw you and others engaged in, and my first post dwelt with how there is no comparison, what I saw from you was trying to show how you faced similar to what we face and I simply disagree for I contend what we face was much larger and on a much more intensive scale with a fundamentalist ideology of total destruction that makes what we face much different then what you face

Again I don't remember trying to compare the two? Again you tried to compare the two in how you feel (wrongly) that you experienced the same that we do, when in reality you don’t!!

Now understand and I certainly get that your nation has also experienced terrorism, however I just don’t think what you face and what we face daily are the same!!




Though I say again, you still did a lot of what we did in some of your conflicts, and I might add with much less vital national security at your stake, but yes I do admit you did it much less and its as such, simply because you don’t face what we do.

But you said you learnt these tactics from the Brits now it seems you didn't? tactics? Ahh? No I said Tactic, meaning ONLY one and that was home demolitions.

The other things I didn’t say we learnt from you, however my point there is that your hypocritical to point the finger solely at us when your own nation did a lot of the same actions as well in the conflicts that you have been involved in (and not just in the distant past).





Please don't forget you had the Catholics fighting Protestants so religion was involved yes religioun was involved, though there was no religious belief that you had to destroy all of Britain or there was no suicidal religious belief that encouraged suicide bombings, these are MAJOR differences in what you face and what we face.

I found this little titbit, you guys kept on saying that the IRA mainly targetted the Military, :cantbeli: :roll: whoa stop right there.

Now this is really getting absurd…..you have done this so many times now that I have lost track :roll: , for the umpteenth time, STOP PUTTING words into my mouth or claiming what you think we claimed when I never claimed as such.

I never said the IRA mainly targeted only the military? Point out where I said such a thing!!????

I simply said in terms of the size and scope and the intensity of attacks and the enemy you face vs the fundamentalist SUICIDAL enemies that we face, well both situations are not comparable, even though I have admitted that in both situations, our respective citizens have died (and I already explained how the common denominator of death does not mean both conflicts or what both face are the same, for they are not!!)

So indeed I ALWAYS recognized that your civilians, citizens as well as soldiers have died, all I merely point out is that in the past fifty plus years, the attacks and the number that you have experienced don’t even come close to the amount and the intensity that we have, nor do I think in recent history were you ever faced with total annihilation as we have been from the past fifty plus years by the hostile neighbors that we have.


The vicitms were mainly civilians!? not the Military ones you guys claimed? :cantbeli: Again point out where I claimed mainly military and not civilian? Come on I am waiting.





Yes, the IRAs goal was to get the British and Protestants out of NI? you’re a Brit and your asking me? :roll: All I know is that they didn’t have the stated goal of destroying all of Great Britain.


Hey, I'm just trying to confirm what I said......seeing as you know everything!? No I never claimed I know everything and certainly I am not as educated about your conflict as I am on mine, and on yours, I made a few statements claiming that as far as I know, the IRA had no stated goal of destroying great Britain and that is just one of the MAJOR differences to what we face, so up to now you have not contradicted what I just said, so I take it you cant.

Good, lets move on………… :D





You have been on this forum since Sept 2003(0.66% of total / 7.13 posts per day) I joined Feb 2004(0.16% of total / 3.90 posts per day) I would say based on this you post a hell of allot more than me? So in my 4-5months on here I can't say any thread on innocent Israelis's being killed hasn't jumped out at me yet! So please get off the hypocrisy tip! no no on this point alone, I don’t exactly call you a hypocrite (there are other points for that ;) ) , but merely one that doesn’t apply universal standards in when you are so outraged over what we do but remain silent over what is done to us.

Now since you have been on, I haven’t seen you post one post commenting on anything that has happened to us or on what we face.

Well you guys did do a great job at Entebbe Airport! wow through all your falsehoods out pops a bit of a sense of humor :D …who would have thought it ;) ………well I guess I can appreciate that……however that is all it is, for its clear from your real non-answer to what I said, my points above stands.





Woohah there nelly.......I talked about the total destruction in Rafah how the IDF not only destroyed homes the Zoo but even green houses? Are these people compensated for these loses or is it just seen as collateral damage? total destruction in rafah? :roll: You mean all of rafah we destroyed? :roll: I don’t think so!! And yes the small parts of it that we destroyed in that war zone, where in green houses, and in zoos and in houses, there were pali gunman firing from, ****y trapped mines and mortar firing, all in their efforts to defend those arms smuggling tunnels that they use to fire at our cities and towns.

You make it sound likek it was the landing at Normandy? was it that bad? what does Normandy have to do with anything? :roll: Anyways I am not going to play your game here, what I wrote above is very clear and yes indeed, what “we” faced in Gaza was indeed a all our urban combat in a full war zone. It’s a simple as that, now where it compares to is not in the realm of this discussion here.





Counter response????? *you* keep on telling me I'm clueless because I haven't served? :cantbeli: beeep wrong answer……..I keep on telling you your wrong for your comments show complete ignorance simply based on what you wrote, not just because you haven’t served but because as I have shown (and I make a case for it and not simply say you don’t know because you haven’t served), you have no concept of what we face or what is a real war zone as I explained in great detail and then I add I understand why you show the ignorance that you do, for you talk about things that as one that never served, you have no REAL concept of what you are talking about.

Now indeed there are some (Keyword SOME) that haven’t served that do know, but that’s not you ;)


Well thanks to you.......I just realized that I used to live in a warzone......England...we were constantly being told to be vigilant and watch out for suspect packages and such, you never knew when they might strike and as I said before they tried blowing up Hammersmith bridge which I had just driven across from Hammersmith a few hours before :| So you are comparing you being told to be vigilant to full combat in an all out urban war zone :cantbeli: :roll:


Again what I said was very clear (and if it wasn’t clear to you before, then let me make it clear to you now……..) what I said above, was not referring to how you live in your nation or even how I live in mine, but rather what’s its like to experience combat in a all out urban war zone and clearly since you never served, you don’t have any concept of what its like to be in all out urban combat in a urban war zone and as such your comments on that very subject just reeked of pure ignorance.

To further prove that you knew nothing of what you wrote before on war zones, I even wrote that I understand as such being that you never served in the military, and that was before you even confirmed to me that I was indeed correct in that yes you never have served in a military.

Your ignorance was very blatant and obvious for me (or anyone) to point out that clearly you never served!





No, you're telling me that everywhere the IDF is is a warzone? so by that I'm ignorant to everything the IDF does. Yes when the IDF goes in, it is a war zone simply by the fact that the palis make it as such when they use every inch of the land there, be it homes, green houses, zoos, to engage in a war, simply to protect their arms smuggling tunnels, where those tunnels we have every right to go in to stop.

Its not just about you being ignorant to what the IDF does but rather your simple ignorance to what a war zone is and what we face.

NI was a warzone seeing as the Military have been there for years and were constantly patrolling, so in a way we're both used to warzones except you served in the IDF and I didn't but I'll see if I can get in contact with my Great Uncles seeing as two of them are retired RM(I have no details at hand). I am talking about YOU, not about people you know.

Secondly your comment “we're both used to warzones”….excuse me!! :cantbeli: ahh?? We’re??? :cantbeli: No, YOU never were in one!!

From your comments so far, you have showed complete ignorance on what kind of war zones we face let alone in general what a real war zone is.


I think there's another thread on James Miller? ahh??

I repeat “Oh and as for what you just said now, So out of the thousands of reporters that are there we are all shooting at them? :roll: I belive Israel has the highest concentration of reporters then anywhere else in the world, yes I hear reports of them being shot at daily :roll: …..no, when it happens, its hardly “the IDF” doing it but rather a few soldiers have done it a few times, its like you have British soldiers that have done bad things a few times.

Secondly not all times is it clear to see if they are a reporter, and mistakes like that do happen unfortunately in a war zone but again you see a picture so you think it is but you never were in a APC in a war zone so you have no idea how easy or hard it is to spot.




Why in Rafah was it nessecery to detroy the Olive trees and the green houses or again is it classified as a warzone? First of all the U.S. did it in Iraq, but I guess only when Jews(Do You Mean Israeli?)do it to we point it out :roll:

Secondly if they fire from there, or use it as cover for snipers, then yes it is a war zone!!

So again anywhere the IDF goes is a warzone.......hhhmmmmm I don't recall reading anythiung on that in NI... Yes in NI the IRA had large arms smuggling tunnels that was dug from neighboring countries that they used to fire mortars, rockets and bullets daily and weekly at British towns and cities, and I guess also the Brits went in to stop those tunnels and then they were faced with IRA gunman that were firing from olive trees, green houses, homes and also everywhere and in all places, there were bombs and other deadly ****y traps, laden around everywhere :roll:

Yes I guess even I see now that after all you faced exactly what we faced :roll: …………..not!!

Gees, again in this case, when we went in indeed everywhere we went it was a war zone, simply by the fact that the Pali's made it into one when they fired from green houses, olive trees and homes, and placed all sorts of deadly ****y traps all over the place, simply all to protect those arms smuggling tunnels.



I say again, its sad when an innocent child is killed and we do not celebrate it when we commit that (unlike the plai's in general that do celebrate the loss of our civilians) and yes we aren’t perfect and in all our actions I wont justify every single one of them for indeed I know like in every military, we also have our few bad apples, but in general for the most part we do NOT purposely target civilians or children but when you have a lot of cases where the kids purposely put themselves in harms way or the gun man force them to do so, and they fire at us from within, well its unavoidable at times.

There was something on discovery the other day about the affect wars around the World have on kids and it went to Israel, at one point it focused on a down where Palistinian kids were walking to school with a Palistinian flag only to be attcked by Israeli stterlers while the IDF looked on and did nothing....do you know what town I'm talking about. First of all, what does this have to do with my above statement?? All I see here is more grasping for straws on your part :roll: …..you never can stop as I see it’s the only thing you can do in the absence of any truthful thoughts on the real realties that we face and how we respond.

Secondly, I don’t know of what town you are talking about and I guess I would like to see a credible link to it.

Thirdly I know that in general, we do as policy try to protect Pali's from any potential attacks that may emanate from any settlers.

Of course the settlers are allowed to have the right for self defense, but yes if it wasn’t, then its wrong and I and most Israelis are against that.

Just in general, it’s not a major problem, I mean for the most part, MOST settlers are very peaceful.

I mean yes I know of attacks, but they aren’t a big number, I mean hell, I ask in the past four years of conflict, how many pali’s have any setters killed?

Also how many plai’s have they attacked and how many were involved?

Lastly the settlers also get attacked, but of course I don’t see any comments from you on that :roll:




So what do you want me to say that what the IDF does is always justified? no not always, just I understand the realties of what we face and as such I believe I simply put the proper context of what the IDF is doing and what it really faces

I have said this before, we aren’t perfect and yes we do make mistakes (as does everyone else) and not everything we did for our defense in the past 50 plus years can I justify, but overall I know we for the most part do NOT intentionally target civilians of any kind and overall I believe we act just in our actions especially considering the real realties that we have had to face.

I still believe some things you guys did were over thetop but I also as you said think certain things had to be done. hey we aren’t perfect as I don’t think you are any one else is and I believe Acc. to your criteria, then your nations have also acted over the top at times.…………..anyways for the rest of what I want to say, read above your remark here.

I just want to add that I don’t mind criticism and you saying that we have acted over the top, but all too often I find by people of your ilk, in the need or the preference to fine over the top in almost everything even when its not the case, much like how the Pali’s accuse and define every act that we do as a massacre, even when clearly they aren’t :roll:




That doesn't tell me a thing, you seem to be so well educated on the subject so I thought you'd have references at hand? I guess not! ok ok so you want a reference, for indeed I am well educated on this, though I admit references are hard to find.





Anyways after a quick search I found two sites, one is a pali site (hardly a pro Israel site and you can see that after a quick glance from reading the rest there), and the other site is from the Jerusalem post.

1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.

For that link click Here (http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=3782&CategoryId=2)

This was an interresting read, thank you I also found this,

Di you know…blah blah blah…………………….





WOW....sorry got sidetracked hahaha ;) yes indeed I guess I should have expected you to continue on with your grasping for straws and going for any side issues simply to divert from the point that I proved to you :roll:

Listen, you cutting and pasting a whole long article simply further shows the lack of depth and knowledge on this conflict, a conflict that you decided to make tons of comments on….now listen I too can post tons of long articles that address every single point there and much much MORE, however that is not what a proper debate is and certainly not how this forum is supposed to be, so I wont go into that, however on home demolitions as it shows there (whether I accept their numbers or not) is that you did that and well all I am saying is that we got that practice from you.

(oh and on the articles, listen I never said we justify everything, so again we aren’t perfect, but believe me besides the many lies there, they leave out very important context to what they accuse us of doing and that’s critical to really understanding the conflict that we are in and what we face)



By Rafael Medoff - April 22, 2002. From: Jerusalem Post

"Demolishing the homes of Arab civilians... Shooting handcuffed prisoners... Forcing local Arabs to test areas where mines may have been planted..."
These sound like the sort of accusations made by British and other European officials concerning Israel's recent actions in Jenin. In fact, they are descriptions from official British documents concerning the methods used by the British authorities to combat Palestinian Arab terrorism in Jenin and elsewhere in 1938.

The documents were declassified by London in 1989. They provide details of the British Mandatory government's response to the assassination of a British district commissioner by a Palestinian Arab terrorist in Jenin in the summer of 1938.

Even after the suspected assassin was captured (and then shot dead while allegedly trying to escape), the British authorities decided that "a large portion of the town should be blown up" as punishment. On August 25 of that year, a British convoy brought 4,200 kilos of explosives to Jenin for that purpose.

When the troops left, there was little else remaining of the once-busy village except a pile of mangled masonry," The New York Times reported.


But I can't find anything on that? ahh?? What cant you find anything on? :roll: That the Brits purposely destroyed homes?? Well that cant be that you cant find anything on that for I showed you already two sources that they did, a practice that we copied from!!



, when your own nation does exactly the same actions that we have done and it does so now, in the past decade and much earlier then that, that is hypocrisy and that’s my point, not so much who learnt from who.

Is this also the case for the Israali settlements that are going up everywhere? you know the settlements constitute less then 5 percent of the land mass, so please tell me how they are going up everywhere? :roll:


Wow this is what I found?


* 1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.
Great and thats all we are talking about here.

Good.

The rest is not what this thread is about so I wont get caught up into it simply so you can further muddle the waters here to divert from the simple fact that in the space of three years, it was YOU, the Brits, that first initiated the practice of destroying homes.


Wow....big difference between 5,000 and 200,000 homs but I guess you guys just ran with it! :I never said your situation is like ours, get that very clear, however all I said was that we got that PRACTICE from you and well you did those actions in what I believe is not even the same situation as what we face.

Ok with that said, lets now do some examinations on what your saying here if I may……… ;)

First, a lot of the homes that we destroyed was in the midst of war (and that 200,000 figure I believe is exaggerated but that’s for another day and thread ;) ) and even that heavily biased site claims that some (well I say a lot) were destroyed in the war, meaning not simply we went to destroy them but rather in the normal course of a war where homes do get destroyed, unlike that initial British practice where the sole aim was to set out and destroy homes!!. Secondly most of those homes that were destroyed in the early years, were mostly empty homes and it was homes of people that fled on their own.

Lastly and more impotently as it pertains to you and your numbers, well you destroyed over 5000 in just three years there, much more then we have done in the past four years of intensive conflict that we have been in, now if you do that many in that short of a time, imagine you stayed there till now and put up with what we have to for over 50 plus years, well the number would also be A LOT higher then just that 5000, probably more like in our range or even higher.


Secondly yes its our land, for after acquiring land in a defensive war, well I believe we have the right to build on that land, I mean hell if not, then I would suspect that California, Arizona and Texas should be given back to Mexico and the rest should be given back to the Indians (and I can site examples from all over the world as such).

I mean in fact I believe we have a stronger case to build on our land (being that we attained it in defensive wars), then the U.S has to build on theirs.

Wow....lets pass it off, so again Israel is right everyone else is WRONG! :cantbeli: No, just everyone is hypocritical!! oh and I guess they are all right when they do it but when Jews do it is wrong :roll:

And yes on this we have every right to build on it being that we attained it in a defensive war.

Arguing simply because you say everyone says something is not a sound basis for an argument. No, stick to arguing on the merits of something and hell even if you disagree then make a sound case for it, but simply saying everyone (especially me as a Jew, yeah we know usually everyone is always right when its about us :roll: ) is not good answer in an argument…no, try harder next time, I am not buying your weak reply here!!




Secondly we aren’t talking about settlements, but rather about our security fence and well we should have the right to build it wherever we deem necessary to protect our lives.

They can't just come in one day and take it it's a bit more drawn out than that plus the govermnment form my understanding will pay market valure for the property. Yes and we have also compensated them for destroyed homes when the homes are destroyed for the anti terror security fence.

200,000 :cantbeli: :cantbeli: Wow so you can prove we have destroyed 200,000 homes for this anti terror security fence?

Let me see a link to that!!!!

Go read again clearly my words you just responded to




Btw I ask again, how many homes have we destroyed because of that fence and site a reputable source for that figure for I don’t think we have destroyed many.

Well I'm sure it's in there with the other 200,000 homes! So again how many homes have we destroyed for the anti terror fence? you made statements before that clearly implied a lot, I dispute that and yet you have still not shown me any credible number as to how many we have because of this anti terror security fence.

I guess this shows you cant!! Simply because the fact that we haven’t destroyed many for that fence!!





But it's not just bricks here innocent people are dieing! no before we are talking about the homes being destroyed and if thats justified and I say yes and also when we do destroy a home, usually no one is dieing.

I repeat “Also note that homes that are destroyed, the occupants are fully compensated, and yes I recognize its sad that we have to do that, but if a choice between us losing more LIVES or the other bad choice of compensating a pali family for losing their home, I choose LIFE over mere bricks and stones.”

So how much money has been given out to compensate for the loss of 200,000 homes? I never said all homes get compensations, when homes are destroyed because they are terrorists homes, homes that are used for cover for snipers, or even homes that Pali’s that fled in years back, indeed there is no compensation as I don’t think there should be any.

Secondly that number you got there is way over inflated even if its been in all of the past 50 years of conflict.

Oh and how much did the Brits compensate for the thousands of homes they destroyed after they stated that practice?? :roll:



Hey......you're the ex-IDF member not me you'd have a better hand on figures over there? and I already said its not much.

You made the insinuation that homes are being destroyed because of the anti terror security fence and I dispute it, so where are your figures to back up what YOU said?

200,000 homes? Again :roll: , that many for the anti terror security fence??? I don’t think so!!

Again how many because of that anti terror security fence?

I say very very few have been because of the anti terror security fence and you say...........?




Present....when......I don't remember IRA members houses being demolished? Again with houses, yes with regards to the Brits, that was the past (and something we got it from ) though the Americans it is the present.

5,000 against 200,000 :cantbeli: Again we got that practice from you, so great I see you accepted that fact, finally ;) …..as for numbers, yes you did it in 3 years, so I guess if you'd continued on staying there till now, well you do the math, but I can guarantee you it would be A LOT more.

Again its not about numbers, but rather simply you came up with this practice when you were here and well we got it from you and that is all my initial point was on.

So I guess when Brits do it (and initiate that practice) here its ok and no one mentions it but when Jews do it, well well here is your British outrage :roll: ….now that’s what I call pure hypocrisy!!




and as far as Christ's death it was in the past which is something I can't even bring up because it was in the past so stop trying to keep on bringing the UKs past actions into this thread!

I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous your arguements sounds "well you did it so why can't I"!!! no, except for house demolitions, much of what I talked about is present or rather recent past.

What's recent in your books because you're talking about Mexico, Texas and California? Wow you cant even follow what I am saying and when I say it :cantbeli: ….I clearly mentioned those places in conjunction with ONLY one issue (and that’s the right to build land) and that is the only issue I brought it up with.

As for what I meant by recent, I am referring to Iraq, Afghanistan and NATO in Bosnia, now I am sure there are other recent ones, but I am find with just looking at those ;)




As for home demolitions I merely pointed it out to show how absurd it is for you to harp on us when in fact we got that practice from YOU!!

My whole comparisons to what you did is merely to show your hypocrisy in condemning our actions (that I believe are actually unavoidable in combat) when your own nations has done a lot of the same, and no not only in the past am I talking about, but also the present or recent past.


Wow........5,000 against 200,000 really proves I'm a hypocriteYes so when you were here and in only three years time you started a practice that destroyed more then we have in all of the past four years in our war here, but you deplore when we do it, but yet are silent or never even knew or cared when you did it, not to mention that we actually got that practice from you…..yes that is hypocrisy





Please show me where we have done the same thing that Israel is doing now in the last 20yrs? no not same thing in general because again you don’t face the same as what we face (as I clearly pointed out to you before), but I can show where you have done some of the same actions, like targeted killings, killed innocent civilians, etc.. yes on those that you accuse us, you have done the same and again I believe with much less of a threat to your vital national security at you stake.

I remember when there were mortars targeted at No.10, hard to believe that I actually lived in a warzone! Yes so in a 10 years you got one mortar attack and that is a war zone?? Oh I guess New York is also a war zone because of those one attacks?……..listen facing one mortar or one attack as such, is not the same as being in a war zone where you are constantly bombarded with mortars, RPG’s bullets etc from all directions…

Secondly I already addressed before what is a war zone and what I am referring to.





And I understand that I'm ignorant to the ways of war but I should still be allowed to have a voice? I have made this very clear to you before, you have every right to express your opinion and indeed you are allowed to have a voice, all I am saying is at the same token, I can show you how your voice on military matters is ignorant (as you now even admit to) and as such you should understand your own ignorance and limitations on commenting on matters of war, when you your self admit that you are ignorant to the ways of war.

Basically in simpler terms, yes you are allowed a voice, though at the same token, I am allowed to show you how that voice is patently ignorant and blind to the realities that you decided to put forth your voice on ;)

I guess I'm not so ignorant now because I lived in a warzone too ;) No trust me you just IMO made a big fool out of yourself to ones on this board that did serve and indeed know what a real combat war zone is but yet have to read some armchair civilian try to say that being vigilant in a city or having one mortar hit a place is like the war zones that SOME of us soldiers have experienced in the urban combat zones that we have been in.

I hope for your sake you weren’t serious about trying to draw actual parallels, but somehow I don’t have faith that you weren’t serious :roll:

Lastly let me just end off by commenting on your long cut and pasts. Listen this is a military forum that soldiers, former soldiers or just general military enthusiasts like to come and converse, share experiences, share and view photos or even like to debate and to the latter I most certainly also enjoy, however what I find absurd and weak, is to have a debate with someone that ends up in the poster simply spewing forth reams of cut and pasts, I find it to be intellectually weak and frankly its not what a proper debate is supposed to be like with two people, I mean if you want some of that info to come here, then quote ONLY what exactly pertains to the opposing viewpoints and to the specifics of the discussion at hand and the rest link it (as I have done), for what you did above was insulting and frankly if I see that again well you can consider this debate over, for I try not to continue debating with what I find to be intellectually weak people when it comes to this subject. On the latter point let me just add that I have been here long enough to realize that when a debate gets as long as ours is, usually most of the rest of the forum has tuned out already and the debate is being mostly read by only you and me, so cutting and pasting long articles, which I did NOT bother to read (I read what you, the opposing debater wrote, but whole long cut and pastes side articles, well I didn’t bother to waste my time on), is simply a waste of time and is pointless to do.



P.S. Wow I am flattered that you took the time to place my name in your avatar location, though I would say no need to falsely flatter yourself as if you effect me that much where I feel the need to go after you, or take over your patio as you put it, hell I even said I wouldn’t mind going shooting with you, though now on second thought, I guess you are all armed and ready and I see even if I came over for that friendly shoot, after what happens to me, you’ll claim to the police that “hey he tried to take over my patio and well it was self defense yada yada… ;)


Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

Well sorry I am late here, I have been very busy f late, hell I haven’t even posted anything here for almost a week now, so it wasn’t just this post. Anyways you knew it was coming and by the fact that you even put my name in your avatar, well that only tells me how much anticipation you have for my follow up post………..great……here enjoy…………..





I just get the impression that you want to downplay anything that's taken place elsewhere in the World, IMHO and I'm entitled to it! :cantbeli: hehe :lol: yes sir, indeed you are entitled to your opinion, as we all are, though just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean your right about it and frankly your opinion of my views are clearly false!

Though I certainly understand why you persist on claiming what your so-called impression is of me ;) :roll:

The suspense is killing me?? ahh? :roll: You already say and repeat your false impressions you get from me and I keep on showing you how they are clearly false and its ONLY in your “wild” imagination that you have conjured up what my views are, even though I never say or insinuate what your so called impression is of me.

As to why you do that, well who knows, though it seems quite likely that you simply cant argue based on facts or sane reasoning so you must make up stuff about me :roll:




I don’t downplay other conflicts, though when I see you overplay your situation as if its comparable to ours, when in reality its not, then I will point that out.....that is all.

How do I overplay? By trying to show your nation has gone through what we do on a daily basis and that you face similar to what we face in terms of the past fifty plus years, when in reality you don’t!!.





I don't remember comparing the two?,My first post in this thread was in response to the general comparison between both that I saw you and others engaged in, and my first post dwelt with how there is no comparison, what I saw from you was trying to show how you faced similar to what we face and I simply disagree for I contend what we face was much larger and on a much more intensive scale with a fundamentalist ideology of total destruction that makes what we face much different then what you face

Again I don't remember trying to compare the two? Again you tried to compare the two in how you feel (wrongly) that you experienced the same that we do, when in reality you don’t!!

Now understand and I certainly get that your nation has also experienced terrorism, however I just don’t think what you face and what we face daily are the same!!




Though I say again, you still did a lot of what we did in some of your conflicts, and I might add with much less vital national security at your stake, but yes I do admit you did it much less and its as such, simply because you don’t face what we do.

But you said you learnt these tactics from the Brits now it seems you didn't? tactics? Ahh? No I said Tactic, meaning ONLY one and that was home demolitions.

The other things I didn’t say we learnt from you, however my point there is that your hypocritical to point the finger solely at us when your own nation did a lot of the same actions as well in the conflicts that you have been involved in (and not just in the distant past).





Please don't forget you had the Catholics fighting Protestants so religion was involved yes religioun was involved, though there was no religious belief that you had to destroy all of Britain or there was no suicidal religious belief that encouraged suicide bombings, these are MAJOR differences in what you face and what we face.

I found this little titbit, you guys kept on saying that the IRA mainly targetted the Military, :cantbeli: :roll: whoa stop right there.

Now this is really getting absurd…..you have done this so many times now that I have lost track :roll: , for the umpteenth time, STOP PUTTING words into my mouth or claiming what you think we claimed when I never claimed as such.

I never said the IRA mainly targeted only the military? Point out where I said such a thing!!????

I simply said in terms of the size and scope and the intensity of attacks and the enemy you face vs the fundamentalist SUICIDAL enemies that we face, well both situations are not comparable, even though I have admitted that in both situations, our respective citizens have died (and I already explained how the common denominator of death does not mean both conflicts or what both face are the same, for they are not!!)

So indeed I ALWAYS recognized that your civilians, citizens as well as soldiers have died, all I merely point out is that in the past fifty plus years, the attacks and the number that you have experienced don’t even come close to the amount and the intensity that we have, nor do I think in recent history were you ever faced with total annihilation as we have been from the past fifty plus years by the hostile neighbors that we have.


The vicitms were mainly civilians!? not the Military ones you guys claimed? :cantbeli: Again point out where I claimed mainly military and not civilian? Come on I am waiting.





Yes, the IRAs goal was to get the British and Protestants out of NI? you’re a Brit and your asking me? :roll: All I know is that they didn’t have the stated goal of destroying all of Great Britain.


Hey, I'm just trying to confirm what I said......seeing as you know everything!? No I never claimed I know everything and certainly I am not as educated about your conflict as I am on mine, and on yours, I made a few statements claiming that as far as I know, the IRA had no stated goal of destroying great Britain and that is just one of the MAJOR differences to what we face, so up to now you have not contradicted what I just said, so I take it you cant.

Good, lets move on………… :D





You have been on this forum since Sept 2003(0.66% of total / 7.13 posts per day) I joined Feb 2004(0.16% of total / 3.90 posts per day) I would say based on this you post a hell of allot more than me? So in my 4-5months on here I can't say any thread on innocent Israelis's being killed hasn't jumped out at me yet! So please get off the hypocrisy tip! no no on this point alone, I don’t exactly call you a hypocrite (there are other points for that ;) ) , but merely one that doesn’t apply universal standards in when you are so outraged over what we do but remain silent over what is done to us.

Now since you have been on, I haven’t seen you post one post commenting on anything that has happened to us or on what we face.

Well you guys did do a great job at Entebbe Airport! wow through all your falsehoods out pops a bit of a sense of humor :D …who would have thought it ;) ………well I guess I can appreciate that……however that is all it is, for its clear from your real non-answer to what I said, my points above stands.





Woohah there nelly.......I talked about the total destruction in Rafah how the IDF not only destroyed homes the Zoo but even green houses? Are these people compensated for these loses or is it just seen as collateral damage? total destruction in rafah? :roll: You mean all of rafah we destroyed? :roll: I don’t think so!! And yes the small parts of it that we destroyed in that war zone, where in green houses, and in zoos and in houses, there were pali gunman firing from, ****y trapped mines and mortar firing, all in their efforts to defend those arms smuggling tunnels that they use to fire at our cities and towns.

You make it sound likek it was the landing at Normandy? was it that bad? what does Normandy have to do with anything? :roll: Anyways I am not going to play your game here, what I wrote above is very clear and yes indeed, what “we” faced in Gaza was indeed a all our urban combat in a full war zone. It’s a simple as that, now where it compares to is not in the realm of this discussion here.





Counter response????? *you* keep on telling me I'm clueless because I haven't served? :cantbeli: beeep wrong answer……..I keep on telling you your wrong for your comments show complete ignorance simply based on what you wrote, not just because you haven’t served but because as I have shown (and I make a case for it and not simply say you don’t know because you haven’t served), you have no concept of what we face or what is a real war zone as I explained in great detail and then I add I understand why you show the ignorance that you do, for you talk about things that as one that never served, you have no REAL concept of what you are talking about.

Now indeed there are some (Keyword SOME) that haven’t served that do know, but that’s not you ;)


Well thanks to you.......I just realized that I used to live in a warzone......England...we were constantly being told to be vigilant and watch out for suspect packages and such, you never knew when they might strike and as I said before they tried blowing up Hammersmith bridge which I had just driven across from Hammersmith a few hours before :| So you are comparing you being told to be vigilant to full combat in an all out urban war zone :cantbeli: :roll:


Again what I said was very clear (and if it wasn’t clear to you before, then let me make it clear to you now……..) what I said above, was not referring to how you live in your nation or even how I live in mine, but rather what’s its like to experience combat in a all out urban war zone and clearly since you never served, you don’t have any concept of what its like to be in all out urban combat in a urban war zone and as such your comments on that very subject just reeked of pure ignorance.

To further prove that you knew nothing of what you wrote before on war zones, I even wrote that I understand as such being that you never served in the military, and that was before you even confirmed to me that I was indeed correct in that yes you never have served in a military.

Your ignorance was very blatant and obvious for me (or anyone) to point out that clearly you never served!





No, you're telling me that everywhere the IDF is is a warzone? so by that I'm ignorant to everything the IDF does. Yes when the IDF goes in, it is a war zone simply by the fact that the palis make it as such when they use every inch of the land there, be it homes, green houses, zoos, to engage in a war, simply to protect their arms smuggling tunnels, where those tunnels we have every right to go in to stop.

Its not just about you being ignorant to what the IDF does but rather your simple ignorance to what a war zone is and what we face.

NI was a warzone seeing as the Military have been there for years and were constantly patrolling, so in a way we're both used to warzones except you served in the IDF and I didn't but I'll see if I can get in contact with my Great Uncles seeing as two of them are retired RM(I have no details at hand). I am talking about YOU, not about people you know.

Secondly your comment “we're both used to warzones”….excuse me!! :cantbeli: ahh?? We’re??? :cantbeli: No, YOU never were in one!!

From your comments so far, you have showed complete ignorance on what kind of war zones we face let alone in general what a real war zone is.


I think there's another thread on James Miller? ahh??

I repeat “Oh and as for what you just said now, So out of the thousands of reporters that are there we are all shooting at them? :roll: I belive Israel has the highest concentration of reporters then anywhere else in the world, yes I hear reports of them being shot at daily :roll: …..no, when it happens, its hardly “the IDF” doing it but rather a few soldiers have done it a few times, its like you have British soldiers that have done bad things a few times.

Secondly not all times is it clear to see if they are a reporter, and mistakes like that do happen unfortunately in a war zone but again you see a picture so you think it is but you never were in a APC in a war zone so you have no idea how easy or hard it is to spot.




Why in Rafah was it nessecery to detroy the Olive trees and the green houses or again is it classified as a warzone? First of all the U.S. did it in Iraq, but I guess only when Jews(Do You Mean Israeli?)do it to we point it out :roll:

Secondly if they fire from there, or use it as cover for snipers, then yes it is a war zone!!

So again anywhere the IDF goes is a warzone.......hhhmmmmm I don't recall reading anythiung on that in NI... Yes in NI the IRA had large arms smuggling tunnels that was dug from neighboring countries that they used to fire mortars, rockets and bullets daily and weekly at British towns and cities, and I guess also the Brits went in to stop those tunnels and then they were faced with IRA gunman that were firing from olive trees, green houses, homes and also everywhere and in all places, there were bombs and other deadly ****y traps, laden around everywhere :roll:

Yes I guess even I see now that after all you faced exactly what we faced :roll: …………..not!!

Gees, again in this case, when we went in indeed everywhere we went it was a war zone, simply by the fact that the Pali's made it into one when they fired from green houses, olive trees and homes, and placed all sorts of deadly ****y traps all over the place, simply all to protect those arms smuggling tunnels.



I say again, its sad when an innocent child is killed and we do not celebrate it when we commit that (unlike the plai's in general that do celebrate the loss of our civilians) and yes we aren’t perfect and in all our actions I wont justify every single one of them for indeed I know like in every military, we also have our few bad apples, but in general for the most part we do NOT purposely target civilians or children but when you have a lot of cases where the kids purposely put themselves in harms way or the gun man force them to do so, and they fire at us from within, well its unavoidable at times.

There was something on discovery the other day about the affect wars around the World have on kids and it went to Israel, at one point it focused on a down where Palistinian kids were walking to school with a Palistinian flag only to be attcked by Israeli stterlers while the IDF looked on and did nothing....do you know what town I'm talking about. First of all, what does this have to do with my above statement?? All I see here is more grasping for straws on your part :roll: …..you never can stop as I see it’s the only thing you can do in the absence of any truthful thoughts on the real realties that we face and how we respond.

Secondly, I don’t know of what town you are talking about and I guess I would like to see a credible link to it.

Thirdly I know that in general, we do as policy try to protect Pali's from any potential attacks that may emanate from any settlers.

Of course the settlers are allowed to have the right for self defense, but yes if it wasn’t, then its wrong and I and most Israelis are against that.

Just in general, it’s not a major problem, I mean for the most part, MOST settlers are very peaceful.

I mean yes I know of attacks, but they aren’t a big number, I mean hell, I ask in the past four years of conflict, how many pali’s have any setters killed?

Also how many plai’s have they attacked and how many were involved?

Lastly the settlers also get attacked, but of course I don’t see any comments from you on that :roll:




So what do you want me to say that what the IDF does is always justified? no not always, just I understand the realties of what we face and as such I believe I simply put the proper context of what the IDF is doing and what it really faces

I have said this before, we aren’t perfect and yes we do make mistakes (as does everyone else) and not everything we did for our defense in the past 50 plus years can I justify, but overall I know we for the most part do NOT intentionally target civilians of any kind and overall I believe we act just in our actions especially considering the real realties that we have had to face.

I still believe some things you guys did were over thetop but I also as you said think certain things had to be done. hey we aren’t perfect as I don’t think you are any one else is and I believe Acc. to your criteria, then your nations have also acted over the top at times.…………..anyways for the rest of what I want to say, read above your remark here.

I just want to add that I don’t mind criticism and you saying that we have acted over the top, but all too often I find by people of your ilk, in the need or the preference to fine over the top in almost everything even when its not the case, much like how the Pali’s accuse and define every act that we do as a massacre, even when clearly they aren’t :roll:




That doesn't tell me a thing, you seem to be so well educated on the subject so I thought you'd have references at hand? I guess not! ok ok so you want a reference, for indeed I am well educated on this, though I admit references are hard to find.





Anyways after a quick search I found two sites, one is a pali site (hardly a pro Israel site and you can see that after a quick glance from reading the rest there), and the other site is from the Jerusalem post.

1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.

For that link click Here (http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=3782&CategoryId=2)

This was an interresting read, thank you I also found this,

Di you know…blah blah blah…………………….





WOW....sorry got sidetracked hahaha ;) yes indeed I guess I should have expected you to continue on with your grasping for straws and going for any side issues simply to divert from the point that I proved to you :roll:

Listen, you cutting and pasting a whole long article simply further shows the lack of depth and knowledge on this conflict, a conflict that you decided to make tons of comments on….now listen I too can post tons of long articles that address every single point there and much much MORE, however that is not what a proper debate is and certainly not how this forum is supposed to be, so I wont go into that, however on home demolitions as it shows there (whether I accept their numbers or not) is that you did that and well all I am saying is that we got that practice from you.

(oh and on the articles, listen I never said we justify everything, so again we aren’t perfect, but believe me besides the many lies there, they leave out very important context to what they accuse us of doing and that’s critical to really understanding the conflict that we are in and what we face)



By Rafael Medoff - April 22, 2002. From: Jerusalem Post

"Demolishing the homes of Arab civilians... Shooting handcuffed prisoners... Forcing local Arabs to test areas where mines may have been planted..."
These sound like the sort of accusations made by British and other European officials concerning Israel's recent actions in Jenin. In fact, they are descriptions from official British documents concerning the methods used by the British authorities to combat Palestinian Arab terrorism in Jenin and elsewhere in 1938.

The documents were declassified by London in 1989. They provide details of the British Mandatory government's response to the assassination of a British district commissioner by a Palestinian Arab terrorist in Jenin in the summer of 1938.

Even after the suspected assassin was captured (and then shot dead while allegedly trying to escape), the British authorities decided that "a large portion of the town should be blown up" as punishment. On August 25 of that year, a British convoy brought 4,200 kilos of explosives to Jenin for that purpose.

When the troops left, there was little else remaining of the once-busy village except a pile of mangled masonry," The New York Times reported.


But I can't find anything on that? ahh?? What cant you find anything on? :roll: That the Brits purposely destroyed homes?? Well that cant be that you cant find anything on that for I showed you already two sources that they did, a practice that we copied from!!



, when your own nation does exactly the same actions that we have done and it does so now, in the past decade and much earlier then that, that is hypocrisy and that’s my point, not so much who learnt from who.

Is this also the case for the Israali settlements that are going up everywhere? you know the settlements constitute less then 5 percent of the land mass, so please tell me how they are going up everywhere? :roll:


Wow this is what I found?


* 1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.
Great and thats all we are talking about here.

Good.

The rest is not what this thread is about so I wont get caught up into it simply so you can further muddle the waters here to divert from the simple fact that in the space of three years, it was YOU, the Brits, that first initiated the practice of destroying homes.


Wow....big difference between 5,000 and 200,000 homs but I guess you guys just ran with it! :I never said your situation is like ours, get that very clear, however all I said was that we got that PRACTICE from you and well you did those actions in what I believe is not even the same situation as what we face.

Ok with that said, lets now do some examinations on what your saying here if I may……… ;)

First, a lot of the homes that we destroyed was in the midst of war (and that 200,000 figure I believe is exaggerated but that’s for another day and thread ;) ) and even that heavily biased site claims that some (well I say a lot) were destroyed in the war, meaning not simply we went to destroy them but rather in the normal course of a war where homes do get destroyed, unlike that initial British practice where the sole aim was to set out and destroy homes!!. Secondly most of those homes that were destroyed in the early years, were mostly empty homes and it was homes of people that fled on their own.

Lastly and more impotently as it pertains to you and your numbers, well you destroyed over 5000 in just three years there, much more then we have done in the past four years of intensive conflict that we have been in, now if you do that many in that short of a time, imagine you stayed there till now and put up with what we have to for over 50 plus years, well the number would also be A LOT higher then just that 5000, probably more like in our range or even higher.


Secondly yes its our land, for after acquiring land in a defensive war, well I believe we have the right to build on that land, I mean hell if not, then I would suspect that California, Arizona and Texas should be given back to Mexico and the rest should be given back to the Indians (and I can site examples from all over the world as such).

I mean in fact I believe we have a stronger case to build on our land (being that we attained it in defensive wars), then the U.S has to build on theirs.

Wow....lets pass it off, so again Israel is right everyone else is WRONG! :cantbeli: No, just everyone is hypocritical!! oh and I guess they are all right when they do it but when Jews do it is wrong :roll:

And yes on this we have every right to build on it being that we attained it in a defensive war.

Arguing simply because you say everyone says something is not a sound basis for an argument. No, stick to arguing on the merits of something and hell even if you disagree then make a sound case for it, but simply saying everyone (especially me as a Jew, yeah we know usually everyone is always right when its about us :roll: ) is not good answer in an argument…no, try harder next time, I am not buying your weak reply here!!




Secondly we aren’t talking about settlements, but rather about our security fence and well we should have the right to build it wherever we deem necessary to protect our lives.

They can't just come in one day and take it it's a bit more drawn out than that plus the govermnment form my understanding will pay market valure for the property. Yes and we have also compensated them for destroyed homes when the homes are destroyed for the anti terror security fence.

200,000 :cantbeli: :cantbeli: Wow so you can prove we have destroyed 200,000 homes for this anti terror security fence?

Let me see a link to that!!!!

Go read again clearly my words you just responded to




Btw I ask again, how many homes have we destroyed because of that fence and site a reputable source for that figure for I don’t think we have destroyed many.

Well I'm sure it's in there with the other 200,000 homes! So again how many homes have we destroyed for the anti terror fence? you made statements before that clearly implied a lot, I dispute that and yet you have still not shown me any credible number as to how many we have because of this anti terror security fence.

I guess this shows you cant!! Simply because the fact that we haven’t destroyed many for that fence!!





But it's not just bricks here innocent people are dieing! no before we are talking about the homes being destroyed and if thats justified and I say yes and also when we do destroy a home, usually no one is dieing.

I repeat “Also note that homes that are destroyed, the occupants are fully compensated, and yes I recognize its sad that we have to do that, but if a choice between us losing more LIVES or the other bad choice of compensating a pali family for losing their home, I choose LIFE over mere bricks and stones.”

So how much money has been given out to compensate for the loss of 200,000 homes? I never said all homes get compensations, when homes are destroyed because they are terrorists homes, homes that are used for cover for snipers, or even homes that Pali’s that fled in years back, indeed there is no compensation as I don’t think there should be any.

Secondly that number you got there is way over inflated even if its been in all of the past 50 years of conflict.

Oh and how much did the Brits compensate for the thousands of homes they destroyed after they stated that practice?? :roll:



Hey......you're the ex-IDF member not me you'd have a better hand on figures over there? and I already said its not much.

You made the insinuation that homes are being destroyed because of the anti terror security fence and I dispute it, so where are your figures to back up what YOU said?

200,000 homes? Again :roll: , that many for the anti terror security fence??? I don’t think so!!

Again how many because of that anti terror security fence?

I say very very few have been because of the anti terror security fence and you say...........?




Present....when......I don't remember IRA members houses being demolished? Again with houses, yes with regards to the Brits, that was the past (and something we got it from ) though the Americans it is the present.

5,000 against 200,000 :cantbeli: Again we got that practice from you, so great I see you accepted that fact, finally ;) …..as for numbers, yes you did it in 3 years, so I guess if you'd continued on staying there till now, well you do the math, but I can guarantee you it would be A LOT more.

Again its not about numbers, but rather simply you came up with this practice when you were here and well we got it from you and that is all my initial point was on.

So I guess when Brits do it (and initiate that practice) here its ok and no one mentions it but when Jews do it, well well here is your British outrage :roll: ….now that’s what I call pure hypocrisy!!




and as far as Christ's death it was in the past which is something I can't even bring up because it was in the past so stop trying to keep on bringing the UKs past actions into this thread!

I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous your arguements sounds "well you did it so why can't I"!!! no, except for house demolitions, much of what I talked about is present or rather recent past.

What's recent in your books because you're talking about Mexico, Texas and California? Wow you cant even follow what I am saying and when I say it :cantbeli: ….I clearly mentioned those places in conjunction with ONLY one issue (and that’s the right to build land) and that is the only issue I brought it up with.

As for what I meant by recent, I am referring to Iraq, Afghanistan and NATO in Bosnia, now I am sure there are other recent ones, but I am find with just looking at those ;)




As for home demolitions I merely pointed it out to show how absurd it is for you to harp on us when in fact we got that practice from YOU!!

My whole comparisons to what you did is merely to show your hypocrisy in condemning our actions (that I believe are actually unavoidable in combat) when your own nations has done a lot of the same, and no not only in the past am I talking about, but also the present or recent past.


Wow........5,000 against 200,000 really proves I'm a hypocriteYes so when you were here and in only three years time you started a practice that destroyed more then we have in all of the past four years in our war here, but you deplore when we do it, but yet are silent or never even knew or cared when you did it, not to mention that we actually got that practice from you…..yes that is hypocrisy





Please show me where we have done the same thing that Israel is doing now in the last 20yrs? no not same thing in general because again you don’t face the same as what we face (as I clearly pointed out to you before), but I can show where you have done some of the same actions, like targeted killings, killed innocent civilians, etc.. yes on those that you accuse us, you have done the same and again I believe with much less of a threat to your vital national security at you stake.

I remember when there were mortars targeted at No.10, hard to believe that I actually lived in a warzone! Yes so in a 10 years you got one mortar attack and that is a war zone?? Oh I guess New York is also a war zone because of those one attacks?……..listen facing one mortar or one attack as such, is not the same as being in a war zone where you are constantly bombarded with mortars, RPG’s bullets etc from all directions…

Secondly I already addressed before what is a war zone and what I am referring to.





And I understand that I'm ignorant to the ways of war but I should still be allowed to have a voice? I have made this very clear to you before, you have every right to express your opinion and indeed you are allowed to have a voice, all I am saying is at the same token, I can show you how your voice on military matters is ignorant (as you now even admit to) and as such you should understand your own ignorance and limitations on commenting on matters of war, when you your self admit that you are ignorant to the ways of war.

Basically in simpler terms, yes you are allowed a voice, though at the same token, I am allowed to show you how that voice is patently ignorant and blind to the realities that you decided to put forth your voice on ;)

I guess I'm not so ignorant now because I lived in a warzone too ;) No trust me you just IMO made a big fool out of yourself to ones on this board that did serve and indeed know what a real combat war zone is but yet have to read some armchair civilian try to say that being vigilant in a city or having one mortar hit a place is like the war zones that SOME of us soldiers have experienced in the urban combat zones that we have been in.

I hope for your sake you weren’t serious about trying to draw actual parallels, but somehow I don’t have faith that you weren’t serious :roll:

Lastly let me just end off by commenting on your long cut and pasts. Listen this is a military forum that soldiers, former soldiers or just general military enthusiasts like to come and converse, share experiences, share and view photos or even like to debate and to the latter I most certainly also enjoy, however what I find absurd and weak, is to have a debate with someone that ends up in the poster simply spewing forth reams of cut and pasts, I find it to be intellectually weak and frankly its not what a proper debate is supposed to be like with two people, I mean if you want some of that info to come here, then quote ONLY what exactly pertains to the opposing viewpoints and to the specifics of the discussion at hand and the rest link it (as I have done), for what you did above was insulting and frankly if I see that again well you can consider this debate over, for I try not to continue debating with what I find to be intellectually weak people when it comes to this subject. On the latter point let me just add that I have been here long enough to realize that when a debate gets as long as ours is, usually most of the rest of the forum has tuned out already and the debate is being mostly read by only you and me, so cutting and pasting long articles, which I did NOT bother to read (I read what you, the opposing debater wrote, but whole long cut and pastes side articles, well I didn’t bother to waste my time on), is simply a waste of time and is pointless to do.



P.S. Wow I am flattered that you took the time to place my name in your avatar location, though I would say no need to falsely flatter yourself as if you effect me that much where I feel the need to go after you, or take over your patio as you put it, hell I even said I wouldn’t mind going shooting with you, though now on second thought, I guess you are all armed and ready and I see even if I came over for that friendly shoot, after what happens to me, you’ll claim to the police that “hey he tried to take over my patio and well it was self defense yada yada… ;) actually on second thought, never mind, as long as we are both armed, I am not worried in the least about you getting off a first shot ;)


Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

Well sorry I am late here, I have been very busy f late, hell I haven’t even posted anything here for almost a week now, so it wasn’t just this post. Anyways you knew it was coming and by the fact that you even put my name in your avatar, well that only tells me how much anticipation you have for my follow up post………..great……here enjoy…………..





I just get the impression that you want to downplay anything that's taken place elsewhere in the World, IMHO and I'm entitled to it! :cantbeli: hehe :lol: yes sir, indeed you are entitled to your opinion, as we all are, though just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean your right about it and frankly your opinion of my views are clearly false!

Though I certainly understand why you persist on claiming what your so-called impression is of me ;) :roll:

The suspense is killing me?? ahh? :roll: You already say and repeat your false impressions you get from me and I keep on showing you how they are clearly false and its ONLY in your “wild” imagination that you have conjured up what my views are, even though I never say or insinuate what your so called impression is of me.

As to why you do that, well who knows, though it seems quite likely that you simply cant argue based on facts or sane reasoning so you must make up stuff about me :roll:




I don’t downplay other conflicts, though when I see you overplay your situation as if its comparable to ours, when in reality its not, then I will point that out.....that is all.

How do I overplay? By trying to show your nation has gone through what we do on a daily basis and that you face similar to what we face in terms of the past fifty plus years, when in reality you don’t!!.





I don't remember comparing the two?,My first post in this thread was in response to the general comparison between both that I saw you and others engaged in, and my first post dwelt with how there is no comparison, what I saw from you was trying to show how you faced similar to what we face and I simply disagree for I contend what we face was much larger and on a much more intensive scale with a fundamentalist ideology of total destruction that makes what we face much different then what you face

Again I don't remember trying to compare the two? Again you tried to compare the two in how you feel (wrongly) that you experienced the same that we do, when in reality you don’t!!

Now understand and I certainly get that your nation has also experienced terrorism, however I just don’t think what you face and what we face daily are the same!!




Though I say again, you still did a lot of what we did in some of your conflicts, and I might add with much less vital national security at your stake, but yes I do admit you did it much less and its as such, simply because you don’t face what we do.

But you said you learnt these tactics from the Brits now it seems you didn't? tactics? Ahh? No I said Tactic, meaning ONLY one and that was home demolitions.

The other things I didn’t say we learnt from you, however my point there is that your hypocritical to point the finger solely at us when your own nation did a lot of the same actions as well in the conflicts that you have been involved in (and not just in the distant past).





Please don't forget you had the Catholics fighting Protestants so religion was involved yes religioun was involved, though there was no religious belief that you had to destroy all of Britain or there was no suicidal religious belief that encouraged suicide bombings, these are MAJOR differences in what you face and what we face.

I found this little titbit, you guys kept on saying that the IRA mainly targetted the Military, :cantbeli: :roll: whoa stop right there.

Now this is really getting absurd…..you have done this so many times now that I have lost track :roll: , for the umpteenth time, STOP PUTTING words into my mouth or claiming what you think we claimed when I never claimed as such.

I never said the IRA mainly targeted only the military? Point out where I said such a thing!!????

I simply said in terms of the size and scope and the intensity of attacks and the enemy you face vs the fundamentalist SUICIDAL enemies that we face, well both situations are not comparable, even though I have admitted that in both situations, our respective citizens have died (and I already explained how the common denominator of death does not mean both conflicts or what both face are the same, for they are not!!)

So indeed I ALWAYS recognized that your civilians, citizens as well as soldiers have died, all I merely point out is that in the past fifty plus years, the attacks and the number that you have experienced don’t even come close to the amount and the intensity that we have, nor do I think in recent history were you ever faced with total annihilation as we have been from the past fifty plus years by the hostile neighbors that we have.


The vicitms were mainly civilians!? not the Military ones you guys claimed? :cantbeli: Again point out where I claimed mainly military and not civilian? Come on I am waiting.





Yes, the IRAs goal was to get the British and Protestants out of NI? you’re a Brit and your asking me? :roll: All I know is that they didn’t have the stated goal of destroying all of Great Britain.


Hey, I'm just trying to confirm what I said......seeing as you know everything!? No I never claimed I know everything and certainly I am not as educated about your conflict as I am on mine, and on yours, I made a few statements claiming that as far as I know, the IRA had no stated goal of destroying great Britain and that is just one of the MAJOR differences to what we face, so up to now you have not contradicted what I just said, so I take it you cant.

Good, lets move on………… :D





You have been on this forum since Sept 2003(0.66% of total / 7.13 posts per day) I joined Feb 2004(0.16% of total / 3.90 posts per day) I would say based on this you post a hell of allot more than me? So in my 4-5months on here I can't say any thread on innocent Israelis's being killed hasn't jumped out at me yet! So please get off the hypocrisy tip! no no on this point alone, I don’t exactly call you a hypocrite (there are other points for that ;) ) , but merely one that doesn’t apply universal standards in when you are so outraged over what we do but remain silent over what is done to us.

Now since you have been on, I haven’t seen you post one post commenting on anything that has happened to us or on what we face.

Well you guys did do a great job at Entebbe Airport! wow through all your falsehoods out pops a bit of a sense of humor :D …who would have thought it ;) ………well I guess I can appreciate that……however that is all it is, for its clear from your real non-answer to what I said, my points above stands.





Woohah there nelly.......I talked about the total destruction in Rafah how the IDF not only destroyed homes the Zoo but even green houses? Are these people compensated for these loses or is it just seen as collateral damage? total destruction in rafah? :roll: You mean all of rafah we destroyed? :roll: I don’t think so!! And yes the small parts of it that we destroyed in that war zone, where in green houses, and in zoos and in houses, there were pali gunman firing from, ****y trapped mines and mortar firing, all in their efforts to defend those arms smuggling tunnels that they use to fire at our cities and towns.

You make it sound likek it was the landing at Normandy? was it that bad? what does Normandy have to do with anything? :roll: Anyways I am not going to play your game here, what I wrote above is very clear and yes indeed, what “we” faced in Gaza was indeed a all our urban combat in a full war zone. It’s a simple as that, now where it compares to is not in the realm of this discussion here.





Counter response????? *you* keep on telling me I'm clueless because I haven't served? :cantbeli: beeep wrong answer……..I keep on telling you your wrong for your comments show complete ignorance simply based on what you wrote, not just because you haven’t served but because as I have shown (and I make a case for it and not simply say you don’t know because you haven’t served), you have no concept of what we face or what is a real war zone as I explained in great detail and then I add I understand why you show the ignorance that you do, for you talk about things that as one that never served, you have no REAL concept of what you are talking about.

Now indeed there are some (Keyword SOME) that haven’t served that do know, but that’s not you ;)


Well thanks to you.......I just realized that I used to live in a warzone......England...we were constantly being told to be vigilant and watch out for suspect packages and such, you never knew when they might strike and as I said before they tried blowing up Hammersmith bridge which I had just driven across from Hammersmith a few hours before :| So you are comparing you being told to be vigilant to full combat in an all out urban war zone :cantbeli: :roll:


Again what I said was very clear (and if it wasn’t clear to you before, then let me make it clear to you now……..) what I said above, was not referring to how you live in your nation or even how I live in mine, but rather what’s its like to experience combat in a all out urban war zone and clearly since you never served, you don’t have any concept of what its like to be in all out urban combat in a urban war zone and as such your comments on that very subject just reeked of pure ignorance.

To further prove that you knew nothing of what you wrote before on war zones, I even wrote that I understand as such being that you never served in the military, and that was before you even confirmed to me that I was indeed correct in that yes you never have served in a military.

Your ignorance was very blatant and obvious for me (or anyone) to point out that clearly you never served!





No, you're telling me that everywhere the IDF is is a warzone? so by that I'm ignorant to everything the IDF does. Yes when the IDF goes in, it is a war zone simply by the fact that the palis make it as such when they use every inch of the land there, be it homes, green houses, zoos, to engage in a war, simply to protect their arms smuggling tunnels, where those tunnels we have every right to go in to stop.

Its not just about you being ignorant to what the IDF does but rather your simple ignorance to what a war zone is and what we face.

NI was a warzone seeing as the Military have been there for years and were constantly patrolling, so in a way we're both used to warzones except you served in the IDF and I didn't but I'll see if I can get in contact with my Great Uncles seeing as two of them are retired RM(I have no details at hand). I am talking about YOU, not about people you know.

Secondly your comment “we're both used to warzones”….excuse me!! :cantbeli: ahh?? We’re??? :cantbeli: No, YOU never were in one!!

From your comments so far, you have showed complete ignorance on what kind of war zones we face let alone in general what a real war zone is.


I think there's another thread on James Miller? ahh??

I repeat “Oh and as for what you just said now, So out of the thousands of reporters that are there we are all shooting at them? :roll: I belive Israel has the highest concentration of reporters then anywhere else in the world, yes I hear reports of them being shot at daily :roll: …..no, when it happens, its hardly “the IDF” doing it but rather a few soldiers have done it a few times, its like you have British soldiers that have done bad things a few times.

Secondly not all times is it clear to see if they are a reporter, and mistakes like that do happen unfortunately in a war zone but again you see a picture so you think it is but you never were in a APC in a war zone so you have no idea how easy or hard it is to spot.




Why in Rafah was it nessecery to detroy the Olive trees and the green houses or again is it classified as a warzone? First of all the U.S. did it in Iraq, but I guess only when Jews(Do You Mean Israeli?)do it to we point it out :roll:

Secondly if they fire from there, or use it as cover for snipers, then yes it is a war zone!!

So again anywhere the IDF goes is a warzone.......hhhmmmmm I don't recall reading anythiung on that in NI... Yes in NI the IRA had large arms smuggling tunnels that was dug from neighboring countries that they used to fire mortars, rockets and bullets daily and weekly at British towns and cities, and I guess also the Brits went in to stop those tunnels and then they were faced with IRA gunman that were firing from olive trees, green houses, homes and also everywhere and in all places, there were bombs and other deadly ****y traps, laden around everywhere :roll:

Yes I guess even I see now that after all you faced exactly what we faced :roll: …………..not!!

Gees, again in this case, when we went in indeed everywhere we went it was a war zone, simply by the fact that the Pali's made it into one when they fired from green houses, olive trees and homes, and placed all sorts of deadly ****y traps all over the place, simply all to protect those arms smuggling tunnels.



I say again, its sad when an innocent child is killed and we do not celebrate it when we commit that (unlike the plai's in general that do celebrate the loss of our civilians) and yes we aren’t perfect and in all our actions I wont justify every single one of them for indeed I know like in every military, we also have our few bad apples, but in general for the most part we do NOT purposely target civilians or children but when you have a lot of cases where the kids purposely put themselves in harms way or the gun man force them to do so, and they fire at us from within, well its unavoidable at times.

There was something on discovery the other day about the affect wars around the World have on kids and it went to Israel, at one point it focused on a down where Palistinian kids were walking to school with a Palistinian flag only to be attcked by Israeli stterlers while the IDF looked on and did nothing....do you know what town I'm talking about. First of all, what does this have to do with my above statement?? All I see here is more grasping for straws on your part :roll: …..you never can stop as I see it’s the only thing you can do in the absence of any truthful thoughts on the real realties that we face and how we respond.

Secondly, I don’t know of what town you are talking about and I guess I would like to see a credible link to it.

Thirdly I know that in general, we do as policy try to protect Pali's from any potential attacks that may emanate from any settlers.

Of course the settlers are allowed to have the right for self defense, but yes if it wasn’t, then its wrong and I and most Israelis are against that.

Just in general, it’s not a major problem, I mean for the most part, MOST settlers are very peaceful.

I mean yes I know of attacks, but they aren’t a big number, I mean hell, I ask in the past four years of conflict, how many pali’s have any setters killed?

Also how many plai’s have they attacked and how many were involved?

Lastly the settlers also get attacked, but of course I don’t see any comments from you on that :roll:




So what do you want me to say that what the IDF does is always justified? no not always, just I understand the realties of what we face and as such I believe I simply put the proper context of what the IDF is doing and what it really faces

I have said this before, we aren’t perfect and yes we do make mistakes (as does everyone else) and not everything we did for our defense in the past 50 plus years can I justify, but overall I know we for the most part do NOT intentionally target civilians of any kind and overall I believe we act just in our actions especially considering the real realties that we have had to face.

I still believe some things you guys did were over thetop but I also as you said think certain things had to be done. hey we aren’t perfect as I don’t think you are any one else is and I believe Acc. to your criteria, then your nations have also acted over the top at times.…………..anyways for the rest of what I want to say, read above your remark here.

I just want to add that I don’t mind criticism and you saying that we have acted over the top, but all too often I find by people of your ilk, in the need or the preference to fine over the top in almost everything even when its not the case, much like how the Pali’s accuse and define every act that we do as a massacre, even when clearly they aren’t :roll:




That doesn't tell me a thing, you seem to be so well educated on the subject so I thought you'd have references at hand? I guess not! ok ok so you want a reference, for indeed I am well educated on this, though I admit references are hard to find.





Anyways after a quick search I found two sites, one is a pali site (hardly a pro Israel site and you can see that after a quick glance from reading the rest there), and the other site is from the Jerusalem post.

1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.

For that link click Here (http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=3782&CategoryId=2)

This was an interresting read, thank you I also found this,

Di you know…blah blah blah…………………….





WOW....sorry got sidetracked hahaha ;) yes indeed I guess I should have expected you to continue on with your grasping for straws and going for any side issues simply to divert from the point that I proved to you :roll:

Listen, you cutting and pasting a whole long article simply further shows the lack of depth and knowledge on this conflict, a conflict that you decided to make tons of comments on….now listen I too can post tons of long articles that address every single point there and much much MORE, however that is not what a proper debate is and certainly not how this forum is supposed to be, so I wont go into that, however on home demolitions as it shows there (whether I accept their numbers or not) is that you did that and well all I am saying is that we got that practice from you.

(oh and on the articles, listen I never said we justify everything, so again we aren’t perfect, but believe me besides the many lies there, they leave out very important context to what they accuse us of doing and that’s critical to really understanding the conflict that we are in and what we face)



By Rafael Medoff - April 22, 2002. From: Jerusalem Post

"Demolishing the homes of Arab civilians... Shooting handcuffed prisoners... Forcing local Arabs to test areas where mines may have been planted..."
These sound like the sort of accusations made by British and other European officials concerning Israel's recent actions in Jenin. In fact, they are descriptions from official British documents concerning the methods used by the British authorities to combat Palestinian Arab terrorism in Jenin and elsewhere in 1938.

The documents were declassified by London in 1989. They provide details of the British Mandatory government's response to the assassination of a British district commissioner by a Palestinian Arab terrorist in Jenin in the summer of 1938.

Even after the suspected assassin was captured (and then shot dead while allegedly trying to escape), the British authorities decided that "a large portion of the town should be blown up" as punishment. On August 25 of that year, a British convoy brought 4,200 kilos of explosives to Jenin for that purpose.

When the troops left, there was little else remaining of the once-busy village except a pile of mangled masonry," The New York Times reported.


But I can't find anything on that? ahh?? What cant you find anything on? :roll: That the Brits purposely destroyed homes?? Well that cant be that you cant find anything on that for I showed you already two sources that they did, a practice that we copied from!!



, when your own nation does exactly the same actions that we have done and it does so now, in the past decade and much earlier then that, that is hypocrisy and that’s my point, not so much who learnt from who.

Is this also the case for the Israali settlements that are going up everywhere? you know the settlements constitute less then 5 percent of the land mass, so please tell me how they are going up everywhere? :roll:


Wow this is what I found?


* 1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.
Great and thats all we are talking about here.

Good.

The rest is not what this thread is about so I wont get caught up into it simply so you can further muddle the waters here to divert from the simple fact that in the space of three years, it was YOU, the Brits, that first initiated the practice of destroying homes.


Wow....big difference between 5,000 and 200,000 homs but I guess you guys just ran with it! :I never said your situation is like ours, get that very clear, however all I said was that we got that PRACTICE from you and well you did those actions in what I believe is not even the same situation as what we face.

Ok with that said, lets now do some examinations on what your saying here if I may……… ;)

First, a lot of the homes that we destroyed was in the midst of war (and that 200,000 figure I believe is exaggerated but that’s for another day and thread ;) ) and even that heavily biased site claims that some (well I say a lot) were destroyed in the war, meaning not simply we went to destroy them but rather in the normal course of a war where homes do get destroyed, unlike that initial British practice where the sole aim was to set out and destroy homes!!. Secondly most of those homes that were destroyed in the early years, were mostly empty homes and it was homes of people that fled on their own.

Lastly and more impotently as it pertains to you and your numbers, well you destroyed over 5000 in just three years there, much more then we have done in the past four years of intensive conflict that we have been in, now if you do that many in that short of a time, imagine you stayed there till now and put up with what we have to for over 50 plus years, well the number would also be A LOT higher then just that 5000, probably more like in our range or even higher.


Secondly yes its our land, for after acquiring land in a defensive war, well I believe we have the right to build on that land, I mean hell if not, then I would suspect that California, Arizona and Texas should be given back to Mexico and the rest should be given back to the Indians (and I can site examples from all over the world as such).

I mean in fact I believe we have a stronger case to build on our land (being that we attained it in defensive wars), then the U.S has to build on theirs.

Wow....lets pass it off, so again Israel is right everyone else is WRONG! :cantbeli: No, just everyone is hypocritical!! oh and I guess they are all right when they do it but when Jews do it is wrong :roll:

And yes on this we have every right to build on it being that we attained it in a defensive war.

Arguing simply because you say everyone says something is not a sound basis for an argument. No, stick to arguing on the merits of something and hell even if you disagree then make a sound case for it, but simply saying everyone (especially me as a Jew, yeah we know usually everyone is always right when its about us :roll: ) is not good answer in an argument…no, try harder next time, I am not buying your weak reply here!!




Secondly we aren’t talking about settlements, but rather about our security fence and well we should have the right to build it wherever we deem necessary to protect our lives.

They can't just come in one day and take it it's a bit more drawn out than that plus the govermnment form my understanding will pay market valure for the property. Yes and we have also compensated them for destroyed homes when the homes are destroyed for the anti terror security fence.

200,000 :cantbeli: :cantbeli: Wow so you can prove we have destroyed 200,000 homes for this anti terror security fence?

Let me see a link to that!!!!

Go read again clearly my words you just responded to




Btw I ask again, how many homes have we destroyed because of that fence and site a reputable source for that figure for I don’t think we have destroyed many.

Well I'm sure it's in there with the other 200,000 homes! So again how many homes have we destroyed for the anti terror fence? you made statements before that clearly implied a lot, I dispute that and yet you have still not shown me any credible number as to how many we have because of this anti terror security fence.

I guess this shows you cant!! Simply because the fact that we haven’t destroyed many for that fence!!





But it's not just bricks here innocent people are dieing! no before we are talking about the homes being destroyed and if thats justified and I say yes and also when we do destroy a home, usually no one is dieing.

I repeat “Also note that homes that are destroyed, the occupants are fully compensated, and yes I recognize its sad that we have to do that, but if a choice between us losing more LIVES or the other bad choice of compensating a pali family for losing their home, I choose LIFE over mere bricks and stones.”

So how much money has been given out to compensate for the loss of 200,000 homes? I never said all homes get compensations, when homes are destroyed because they are terrorists homes, homes that are used for cover for snipers, or even homes that Pali’s that fled in years back, indeed there is no compensation as I don’t think there should be any.

Secondly that number you got there is way over inflated even if its been in all of the past 50 years of conflict.

Oh and how much did the Brits compensate for the thousands of homes they destroyed after they stated that practice?? :roll:



Hey......you're the ex-IDF member not me you'd have a better hand on figures over there? and I already said its not much.

You made the insinuation that homes are being destroyed because of the anti terror security fence and I dispute it, so where are your figures to back up what YOU said?

200,000 homes? Again :roll: , that many for the anti terror security fence??? I don’t think so!!

Again how many because of that anti terror security fence?

I say very very few have been because of the anti terror security fence and you say...........?




Present....when......I don't remember IRA members houses being demolished? Again with houses, yes with regards to the Brits, that was the past (and something we got it from ) though the Americans it is the present.

5,000 against 200,000 :cantbeli: Again we got that practice from you, so great I see you accepted that fact, finally ;) …..as for numbers, yes you did it in 3 years, so I guess if you'd continued on staying there till now, well you do the math, but I can guarantee you it would be A LOT more.

Again its not about numbers, but rather simply you came up with this practice when you were here and well we got it from you and that is all my initial point was on.

So I guess when Brits do it (and initiate that practice) here its ok and no one mentions it but when Jews do it, well well here is your British outrage :roll: ….now that’s what I call pure hypocrisy!!




and as far as Christ's death it was in the past which is something I can't even bring up because it was in the past so stop trying to keep on bringing the UKs past actions into this thread!

I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous your arguements sounds "well you did it so why can't I"!!! no, except for house demolitions, much of what I talked about is present or rather recent past.

What's recent in your books because you're talking about Mexico, Texas and California? Wow you cant even follow what I am saying and when I say it :cantbeli: ….I clearly mentioned those places in conjunction with ONLY one issue (and that’s the right to build land) and that is the only issue I brought it up with.

As for what I meant by recent, I am referring to Iraq, Afghanistan and NATO in Bosnia, now I am sure there are other recent ones, but I am find with just looking at those ;)




As for home demolitions I merely pointed it out to show how absurd it is for you to harp on us when in fact we got that practice from YOU!!

My whole comparisons to what you did is merely to show your hypocrisy in condemning our actions (that I believe are actually unavoidable in combat) when your own nations has done a lot of the same, and no not only in the past am I talking about, but also the present or recent past.


Wow........5,000 against 200,000 really proves I'm a hypocriteYes so when you were here and in only three years time you started a practice that destroyed more then we have in all of the past four years in our war here, but you deplore when we do it, but yet are silent or never even knew or cared when you did it, not to mention that we actually got that practice from you…..yes that is hypocrisy





Please show me where we have done the same thing that Israel is doing now in the last 20yrs? no not same thing in general because again you don’t face the same as what we face (as I clearly pointed out to you before), but I can show where you have done some of the same actions, like targeted killings, killed innocent civilians, etc.. yes on those that you accuse us, you have done the same and again I believe with much less of a threat to your vital national security at you stake.

I remember when there were mortars targeted at No.10, hard to believe that I actually lived in a warzone! Yes so in a 10 years you got one mortar attack and that is a war zone?? Oh I guess New York is also a war zone because of those one attacks?……..listen facing one mortar or one attack as such, is not the same as being in a war zone where you are constantly bombarded with mortars, RPG’s bullets etc from all directions…

Secondly I already addressed before what is a war zone and what I am referring to.





And I understand that I'm ignorant to the ways of war but I should still be allowed to have a voice? I have made this very clear to you before, you have every right to express your opinion and indeed you are allowed to have a voice, all I am saying is at the same token, I can show you how your voice on military matters is ignorant (as you now even admit to) and as such you should understand your own ignorance and limitations on commenting on matters of war, when you your self admit that you are ignorant to the ways of war.

Basically in simpler terms, yes you are allowed a voice, though at the same token, I am allowed to show you how that voice is patently ignorant and blind to the realities that you decided to put forth your voice on ;)

I guess I'm not so ignorant now because I lived in a warzone too ;) No trust me you just IMO made a big fool out of yourself to ones on this board that did serve and indeed know what a real combat war zone is but yet have to read some armchair civilian try to say that being vigilant in a city or having one mortar hit a place is like the war zones that SOME of us soldiers have experienced in the urban combat zones that we have been in.

I hope for your sake you weren’t serious about trying to draw actual parallels, but somehow I don’t have faith that you weren’t serious :roll:

Lastly let me just end off by commenting on your long cut and pasts. Listen this is a military forum that soldiers, former soldiers or just general military enthusiasts like to come and converse, share experiences, share and view photos or even like to debate and to the latter I most certainly also enjoy, however what I find absurd and weak, is to have a debate with someone that ends up in the poster simply spewing forth reams of cut and pasts, I find it to be intellectually weak and frankly its not what a proper debate is supposed to be like with two people, I mean if you want some of that info to come here, then quote ONLY what exactly pertains to the opposing viewpoints and to the specifics of the discussion at hand and the rest link it (as I have done), for what you did above was insulting and frankly if I see that again well you can consider this debate over, for I try not to continue debating with what I find to be intellectually weak people when it comes to this subject. On the latter point let me just add that I have been here long enough to realize that when a debate gets as long as ours is, usually most of the rest of the forum has tuned out already and the debate is being mostly read by only you and me, so cutting and pasting long articles, which I did NOT bother to read (I read what you, the opposing debater wrote, but whole long cut and pastes side articles, well I didn’t bother to waste my time on), is simply a waste of time and is pointless to do.



P.S. Wow I am flattered that you took the time to place my name in your avatar location, though I would say no need to falsely flatter yourself as if you effect me that much where I feel the need to go after you, or take over your patio as you put it, hell I even said I wouldn’t mind going shooting with you, though now on second thought, I guess you are all armed and ready and I see even if I came over for that friendly shoot, after what happens to me, you’ll claim to the police that “hey he tried to take over my patio and well it was self defense yada yada… ;) actually on second thought, never mind, as long as we are both armed, I am not worried in the least about you getting off a first shot ;)


Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

Well sorry I am late here, I have been very busy f late, hell I haven’t even posted anything here for almost a week now, so it wasn’t just this post. Anyways you knew it was coming and by the fact that you even put my name in your avatar, well that only tells me how much anticipation you have for my follow up post………..great……here enjoy…………..





I just get the impression that you want to downplay anything that's taken place elsewhere in the World, IMHO and I'm entitled to it! :cantbeli: hehe :lol: yes sir, indeed you are entitled to your opinion, as we all are, though just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean your right about it and frankly your opinion of my views are clearly false!

Though I certainly understand why you persist on claiming what your so-called impression is of me ;) :roll:

The suspense is killing me?? ahh? :roll: You already say and repeat your false impressions you get from me and I keep on showing you how they are clearly false and its ONLY in your “wild” imagination that you have conjured up what my views are, even though I never say or insinuate what your so called impression is of me.

As to why you do that, well who knows, though it seems quite likely that you simply cant argue based on facts or sane reasoning so you must make up stuff about me :roll:




I don’t downplay other conflicts, though when I see you overplay your situation as if its comparable to ours, when in reality its not, then I will point that out.....that is all.

How do I overplay? By trying to show your nation has gone through what we do on a daily basis and that you face similar to what we face in terms of the past fifty plus years, when in reality you don’t!!.





I don't remember comparing the two?,My first post in this thread was in response to the general comparison between both that I saw you and others engaged in, and my first post dwelt with how there is no comparison, what I saw from you was trying to show how you faced similar to what we face and I simply disagree for I contend what we face was much larger and on a much more intensive scale with a fundamentalist ideology of total destruction that makes what we face much different then what you face

Again I don't remember trying to compare the two? Again you tried to compare the two in how you feel (wrongly) that you experienced the same that we do, when in reality you don’t!!

Now understand and I certainly get that your nation has also experienced terrorism, however I just don’t think what you face and what we face daily are the same!!




Though I say again, you still did a lot of what we did in some of your conflicts, and I might add with much less vital national security at your stake, but yes I do admit you did it much less and its as such, simply because you don’t face what we do.

But you said you learnt these tactics from the Brits now it seems you didn't? tactics? Ahh? No I said Tactic, meaning ONLY one and that was home demolitions.

The other things I didn’t say we learnt from you, however my point there is that your hypocritical to point the finger solely at us when your own nation did a lot of the same actions as well in the conflicts that you have been involved in (and not just in the distant past).





Please don't forget you had the Catholics fighting Protestants so religion was involved yes religioun was involved, though there was no religious belief that you had to destroy all of Britain or there was no suicidal religious belief that encouraged suicide bombings, these are MAJOR differences in what you face and what we face.

I found this little titbit, you guys kept on saying that the IRA mainly targetted the Military, :cantbeli: :roll: whoa stop right there.

Now this is really getting absurd…..you have done this so many times now that I have lost track :roll: , for the umpteenth time, STOP PUTTING words into my mouth or claiming what you think we claimed when I never claimed as such.

I never said the IRA mainly targeted only the military? Point out where I said such a thing!!????

I simply said in terms of the size and scope and the intensity of attacks and the enemy you face vs the fundamentalist SUICIDAL enemies that we face, well both situations are not comparable, even though I have admitted that in both situations, our respective citizens have died (and I already explained how the common denominator of death does not mean both conflicts or what both face are the same, for they are not!!)

So indeed I ALWAYS recognized that your civilians, citizens as well as soldiers have died, all I merely point out is that in the past fifty plus years, the attacks and the number that you have experienced don’t even come close to the amount and the intensity that we have, nor do I think in recent history were you ever faced with total annihilation as we have been from the past fifty plus years by the hostile neighbors that we have.


The vicitms were mainly civilians!? not the Military ones you guys claimed? :cantbeli: Again point out where I claimed mainly military and not civilian? Come on I am waiting.





Yes, the IRAs goal was to get the British and Protestants out of NI? you’re a Brit and your asking me? :roll: All I know is that they didn’t have the stated goal of destroying all of Great Britain.


Hey, I'm just trying to confirm what I said......seeing as you know everything!? No I never claimed I know everything and certainly I am not as educated about your conflict as I am on mine, and on yours, I made a few statements claiming that as far as I know, the IRA had no stated goal of destroying great Britain and that is just one of the MAJOR differences to what we face, so up to now you have not contradicted what I just said, so I take it you cant.

Good, lets move on………… :D





You have been on this forum since Sept 2003(0.66% of total / 7.13 posts per day) I joined Feb 2004(0.16% of total / 3.90 posts per day) I would say based on this you post a hell of allot more than me? So in my 4-5months on here I can't say any thread on innocent Israelis's being killed hasn't jumped out at me yet! So please get off the hypocrisy tip! no no on this point alone, I don’t exactly call you a hypocrite (there are other points for that ;) ) , but merely one that doesn’t apply universal standards in when you are so outraged over what we do but remain silent over what is done to us.

Now since you have been on, I haven’t seen you post one post commenting on anything that has happened to us or on what we face.

Well you guys did do a great job at Entebbe Airport! wow through all your falsehoods out pops a bit of a sense of humor :D …who would have thought it ;) ………well I guess I can appreciate that……however that is all it is, for its clear from your real non-answer to what I said, my points above stands.





Woohah there nelly.......I talked about the total destruction in Rafah how the IDF not only destroyed homes the Zoo but even green houses? Are these people compensated for these loses or is it just seen as collateral damage? total destruction in rafah? :roll: You mean all of rafah we destroyed? :roll: I don’t think so!! And yes the small parts of it that we destroyed in that war zone, where in green houses, and in zoos and in houses, there were pali gunman firing from, ****y trapped mines and mortar firing, all in their efforts to defend those arms smuggling tunnels that they use to fire at our cities and towns.

You make it sound likek it was the landing at Normandy? was it that bad? what does Normandy have to do with anything? :roll: Anyways I am not going to play your game here, what I wrote above is very clear and yes indeed, what “we” faced in Gaza was indeed a all our urban combat in a full war zone. It’s a simple as that, now where it compares to is not in the realm of this discussion here.





Counter response????? *you* keep on telling me I'm clueless because I haven't served? :cantbeli: beeep wrong answer……..I keep on telling you your wrong for your comments show complete ignorance simply based on what you wrote, not just because you haven’t served but because as I have shown (and I make a case for it and not simply say you don’t know because you haven’t served), you have no concept of what we face or what is a real war zone as I explained in great detail and then I add I understand why you show the ignorance that you do, for you talk about things that as one that never served, you have no REAL concept of what you are talking about.

Now indeed there are some (Keyword SOME) that haven’t served that do know, but that’s not you ;)


Well thanks to you.......I just realized that I used to live in a warzone......England...we were constantly being told to be vigilant and watch out for suspect packages and such, you never knew when they might strike and as I said before they tried blowing up Hammersmith bridge which I had just driven across from Hammersmith a few hours before :| So you are comparing you being told to be vigilant to full combat in an all out urban war zone :cantbeli: :roll:


Again what I said was very clear (and if it wasn’t clear to you before, then let me make it clear to you now……..) what I said above, was not referring to how you live in your nation or even how I live in mine, but rather what’s its like to experience combat in a all out urban war zone and clearly since you never served, you don’t have any concept of what its like to be in all out urban combat in a urban war zone and as such your comments on that very subject just reeked of pure ignorance.

To further prove that you knew nothing of what you wrote before on war zones, I even wrote that I understand as such being that you never served in the military, and that was before you even confirmed to me that I was indeed correct in that yes you never have served in a military.

Your ignorance was very blatant and obvious for me (or anyone) to point out that clearly you never served!





No, you're telling me that everywhere the IDF is is a warzone? so by that I'm ignorant to everything the IDF does. Yes when the IDF goes in, it is a war zone simply by the fact that the palis make it as such when they use every inch of the land there, be it homes, green houses, zoos, to engage in a war, simply to protect their arms smuggling tunnels, where those tunnels we have every right to go in to stop.

Its not just about you being ignorant to what the IDF does but rather your simple ignorance to what a war zone is and what we face.

NI was a warzone seeing as the Military have been there for years and were constantly patrolling, so in a way we're both used to warzones except you served in the IDF and I didn't but I'll see if I can get in contact with my Great Uncles seeing as two of them are retired RM(I have no details at hand). I am talking about YOU, not about people you know.

Secondly your comment “we're both used to warzones”….excuse me!! :cantbeli: ahh?? We’re??? :cantbeli: No, YOU never were in one!!

From your comments so far, you have showed complete ignorance on what kind of war zones we face let alone in general what a real war zone is.


I think there's another thread on James Miller? ahh??

I repeat “Oh and as for what you just said now, So out of the thousands of reporters that are there we are all shooting at them? :roll: I belive Israel has the highest concentration of reporters then anywhere else in the world, yes I hear reports of them being shot at daily :roll: …..no, when it happens, its hardly “the IDF” doing it but rather a few soldiers have done it a few times, its like you have British soldiers that have done bad things a few times.

Secondly not all times is it clear to see if they are a reporter, and mistakes like that do happen unfortunately in a war zone but again you see a picture so you think it is but you never were in a APC in a war zone so you have no idea how easy or hard it is to spot.




Why in Rafah was it nessecery to detroy the Olive trees and the green houses or again is it classified as a warzone? First of all the U.S. did it in Iraq, but I guess only when Jews(Do You Mean Israeli?)do it to we point it out :roll:

Secondly if they fire from there, or use it as cover for snipers, then yes it is a war zone!!

So again anywhere the IDF goes is a warzone.......hhhmmmmm I don't recall reading anythiung on that in NI... Yes in NI the IRA had large arms smuggling tunnels that was dug from neighboring countries that they used to fire mortars, rockets and bullets daily and weekly at British towns and cities, and I guess also the Brits went in to stop those tunnels and then they were faced with IRA gunman that were firing from olive trees, green houses, homes and also everywhere and in all places, there were bombs and other deadly ****y traps, laden around everywhere :roll:

Yes I guess even I see now that after all you faced exactly what we faced :roll: …………..not!!

Gees, again in this case, when we went in indeed everywhere we went it was a war zone, simply by the fact that the Pali's made it into one when they fired from green houses, olive trees and homes, and placed all sorts of deadly ****y traps all over the place, simply all to protect those arms smuggling tunnels.



I say again, its sad when an innocent child is killed and we do not celebrate it when we commit that (unlike the plai's in general that do celebrate the loss of our civilians) and yes we aren’t perfect and in all our actions I wont justify every single one of them for indeed I know like in every military, we also have our few bad apples, but in general for the most part we do NOT purposely target civilians or children but when you have a lot of cases where the kids purposely put themselves in harms way or the gun man force them to do so, and they fire at us from within, well its unavoidable at times.

There was something on discovery the other day about the affect wars around the World have on kids and it went to Israel, at one point it focused on a down where Palistinian kids were walking to school with a Palistinian flag only to be attcked by Israeli stterlers while the IDF looked on and did nothing....do you know what town I'm talking about. First of all, what does this have to do with my above statement?? All I see here is more grasping for straws on your part :roll: …..you never can stop as I see it’s the only thing you can do in the absence of any truthful thoughts on the real realties that we face and how we respond.

Secondly, I don’t know of what town you are talking about and I guess I would like to see a credible link to it.

Thirdly I know that in general, we do as policy try to protect Pali's from any potential attacks that may emanate from any settlers.

Of course the settlers are allowed to have the right for self defense, but yes if it wasn’t, then its wrong and I and most Israelis are against that.

Just in general, it’s not a major problem, I mean for the most part, MOST settlers are very peaceful.

I mean yes I know of attacks, but they aren’t a big number, I mean hell, I ask in the past four years of conflict, how many pali’s have any setters killed?

Also how many plai’s have they attacked and how many were involved?

Lastly the settlers also get attacked, but of course I don’t see any comments from you on that :roll:




So what do you want me to say that what the IDF does is always justified? no not always, just I understand the realties of what we face and as such I believe I simply put the proper context of what the IDF is doing and what it really faces

I have said this before, we aren’t perfect and yes we do make mistakes (as does everyone else) and not everything we did for our defense in the past 50 plus years can I justify, but overall I know we for the most part do NOT intentionally target civilians of any kind and overall I believe we act just in our actions especially considering the real realties that we have had to face.

I still believe some things you guys did were over thetop but I also as you said think certain things had to be done. hey we aren’t perfect as I don’t think you are any one else is and I believe Acc. to your criteria, then your nations have also acted over the top at times.…………..anyways for the rest of what I want to say, read above your remark here.

I just want to add that I don’t mind criticism and you saying that we have acted over the top, but all too often I find by people of your ilk, in the need or the preference to fine over the top in almost everything even when its not the case, much like how the Pali’s accuse and define every act that we do as a massacre, even when clearly they aren’t :roll:




That doesn't tell me a thing, you seem to be so well educated on the subject so I thought you'd have references at hand? I guess not! ok ok so you want a reference, for indeed I am well educated on this, though I admit references are hard to find.





Anyways after a quick search I found two sites, one is a pali site (hardly a pro Israel site and you can see that after a quick glance from reading the rest there), and the other site is from the Jerusalem post.

1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.

For that link click Here (http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=3782&CategoryId=2)

This was an interresting read, thank you I also found this,

Di you know…blah blah blah…………………….





WOW....sorry got sidetracked hahaha ;) yes indeed I guess I should have expected you to continue on with your grasping for straws and going for any side issues simply to divert from the point that I proved to you :roll:

Listen, you cutting and pasting a whole long article simply further shows the lack of depth and knowledge on this conflict, a conflict that you decided to make tons of comments on….now listen I too can post tons of long articles that address every single point there and much much MORE, however that is not what a proper debate is and certainly not how this forum is supposed to be, so I wont go into that, however on home demolitions as it shows there (whether I accept their numbers or not) is that you did that and well all I am saying is that we got that practice from you.

(oh and on the articles, listen I never said we justify everything, so again we aren’t perfect, but believe me besides the many lies there, they leave out very important context to what they accuse us of doing and that’s critical to really understanding the conflict that we are in and what we face)



By Rafael Medoff - April 22, 2002. From: Jerusalem Post

"Demolishing the homes of Arab civilians... Shooting handcuffed prisoners... Forcing local Arabs to test areas where mines may have been planted..."
These sound like the sort of accusations made by British and other European officials concerning Israel's recent actions in Jenin. In fact, they are descriptions from official British documents concerning the methods used by the British authorities to combat Palestinian Arab terrorism in Jenin and elsewhere in 1938.

The documents were declassified by London in 1989. They provide details of the British Mandatory government's response to the assassination of a British district commissioner by a Palestinian Arab terrorist in Jenin in the summer of 1938.

Even after the suspected assassin was captured (and then shot dead while allegedly trying to escape), the British authorities decided that "a large portion of the town should be blown up" as punishment. On August 25 of that year, a British convoy brought 4,200 kilos of explosives to Jenin for that purpose.

When the troops left, there was little else remaining of the once-busy village except a pile of mangled masonry," The New York Times reported.


But I can't find anything on that? ahh?? What cant you find anything on? :roll: That the Brits purposely destroyed homes?? Well that cant be that you cant find anything on that for I showed you already two sources that they did, a practice that we copied from!!



, when your own nation does exactly the same actions that we have done and it does so now, in the past decade and much earlier then that, that is hypocrisy and that’s my point, not so much who learnt from who.

Is this also the case for the Israali settlements that are going up everywhere? you know the settlements constitute less then 5 percent of the land mass, so please tell me how they are going up everywhere? :roll:


Wow this is what I found?


* 1930s, British administration in Palestine uses house demolition as a means of quelling the indigenous uprising against British rule. 1936-1939 the British demolished more than 5,000 Palestinian homes.
Great and thats all we are talking about here.

Good.

The rest is not what this thread is about so I wont get caught up into it simply so you can further muddle the waters here to divert from the simple fact that in the space of three years, it was YOU, the Brits, that first initiated the practice of destroying homes.


Wow....big difference between 5,000 and 200,000 homs but I guess you guys just ran with it! :I never said your situation is like ours, get that very clear, however all I said was that we got that PRACTICE from you and well you did those actions in what I believe is not even the same situation as what we face.

Ok with that said, lets now do some examinations on what your saying here if I may……… ;)

First, a lot of the homes that we destroyed was in the midst of war (and that 200,000 figure I believe is exaggerated but that’s for another day and thread ;) ) and even that heavily biased site claims that some (well I say a lot) were destroyed in the war, meaning not simply we went to destroy them but rather in the normal course of a war where homes do get destroyed, unlike that initial British practice where the sole aim was to set out and destroy homes!!. Secondly most of those homes that were destroyed in the early years, were mostly empty homes and it was homes of people that fled on their own.

Lastly and more impotently as it pertains to you and your numbers, well you destroyed over 5000 in just three years there, much more then we have done in the past four years of intensive conflict that we have been in, now if you do that many in that short of a time, imagine you stayed there till now and put up with what we have to for over 50 plus years, well the number would also be A LOT higher then just that 5000, probably more like in our range or even higher.


Secondly yes its our land, for after acquiring land in a defensive war, well I believe we have the right to build on that land, I mean hell if not, then I would suspect that California, Arizona and Texas should be given back to Mexico and the rest should be given back to the Indians (and I can site examples from all over the world as such).

I mean in fact I believe we have a stronger case to build on our land (being that we attained it in defensive wars), then the U.S has to build on theirs.

Wow....lets pass it off, so again Israel is right everyone else is WRONG! :cantbeli: No, just everyone is hypocritical!! oh and I guess they are all right when they do it but when Jews do it is wrong :roll:

And yes on this we have every right to build on it being that we attained it in a defensive war.

Arguing simply because you say everyone says something is not a sound basis for an argument. No, stick to arguing on the merits of something and hell even if you disagree then make a sound case for it, but simply saying everyone (especially me as a Jew, yeah we know usually everyone is always right when its about us :roll: ) is not good answer in an argument…no, try harder next time, I am not buying your weak reply here!!




Secondly we aren’t talking about settlements, but rather about our security fence and well we should have the right to build it wherever we deem necessary to protect our lives.

They can't just come in one day and take it it's a bit more drawn out than that plus the govermnment form my understanding will pay market valure for the property. Yes and we have also compensated them for destroyed homes when the homes are destroyed for the anti terror security fence.

200,000 :cantbeli: :cantbeli: Wow so you can prove we have destroyed 200,000 homes for this anti terror security fence?

Let me see a link to that!!!!

Go read again clearly my words you just responded to




Btw I ask again, how many homes have we destroyed because of that fence and site a reputable source for that figure for I don’t think we have destroyed many.

Well I'm sure it's in there with the other 200,000 homes! So again how many homes have we destroyed for the anti terror fence? you made statements before that clearly implied a lot, I dispute that and yet you have still not shown me any credible number as to how many we have because of this anti terror security fence.

I guess this shows you cant!! Simply because the fact that we haven’t destroyed many for that fence!!





But it's not just bricks here innocent people are dieing! no before we are talking about the homes being destroyed and if thats justified and I say yes and also when we do destroy a home, usually no one is dieing.

I repeat “Also note that homes that are destroyed, the occupants are fully compensated, and yes I recognize its sad that we have to do that, but if a choice between us losing more LIVES or the other bad choice of compensating a pali family for losing their home, I choose LIFE over mere bricks and stones.”

So how much money has been given out to compensate for the loss of 200,000 homes? I never said all homes get compensations, when homes are destroyed because they are terrorists homes, homes that are used for cover for snipers, or even homes that Pali’s that fled in years back, indeed there is no compensation as I don’t think there should be any.

Secondly that number you got there is way over inflated even if its been in all of the past 50 years of conflict.

Oh and how much did the Brits compensate for the thousands of homes they destroyed after they stated that practice?? :roll:



Hey......you're the ex-IDF member not me you'd have a better hand on figures over there? and I already said its not much.

You made the insinuation that homes are being destroyed because of the anti terror security fence and I dispute it, so where are your figures to back up what YOU said?

200,000 homes? Again :roll: , that many for the anti terror security fence??? I don’t think so!!

Again how many because of that anti terror security fence?

I say very very few have been because of the anti terror security fence and you say...........?




Present....when......I don't remember IRA members houses being demolished? Again with houses, yes with regards to the Brits, that was the past (and something we got it from ) though the Americans it is the present.

5,000 against 200,000 :cantbeli: Again we got that practice from you, so great I see you accepted that fact, finally ;) …..as for numbers, yes you did it in 3 years, so I guess if you'd continued on staying there till now, well you do the math, but I can guarantee you it would be A LOT more.

Again its not about numbers, but rather simply you came up with this practice when you were here and well we got it from you and that is all my initial point was on.

So I guess when Brits do it (and initiate that practice) here its ok and no one mentions it but when Jews do it, well well here is your British outrage :roll: ….now that’s what I call pure hypocrisy!!




and as far as Christ's death it was in the past which is something I can't even bring up because it was in the past so stop trying to keep on bringing the UKs past actions into this thread!

I was just trying to highlight how ridiculous your arguements sounds "well you did it so why can't I"!!! no, except for house demolitions, much of what I talked about is present or rather recent past.

What's recent in your books because you're talking about Mexico, Texas and California? Wow you cant even follow what I am saying and when I say it :cantbeli: ….I clearly mentioned those places in conjunction with ONLY one issue (and that’s the right to build land) and that is the only issue I brought it up with.

As for what I meant by recent, I am referring to Iraq, Afghanistan and NATO in Bosnia, now I am sure there are other recent ones, but I am find with just looking at those ;)




As for home demolitions I merely pointed it out to show how absurd it is for you to harp on us when in fact we got that practice from YOU!!

My whole comparisons to what you did is merely to show your hypocrisy in condemning our actions (that I believe are actually unavoidable in combat) when your own nations has done a lot of the same, and no not only in the past am I talking about, but also the present or recent past.


Wow........5,000 against 200,000 really proves I'm a hypocriteYes so when you were here and in only three years time you started a practice that destroyed more then we have in all of the past four years in our war here, but you deplore when we do it, but yet are silent or never even knew or cared when you did it, not to mention that we actually got that practice from you…..yes that is hypocrisy





Please show me where we have done the same thing that Israel is doing now in the last 20yrs? no not same thing in general because again you don’t face the same as what we face (as I clearly pointed out to you before), but I can show where you have done some of the same actions, like targeted killings, killed innocent civilians, etc.. yes on those that you accuse us, you have done the same and again I believe with much less of a threat to your vital national security at you stake.

I remember when there were mortars targeted at No.10, hard to believe that I actually lived in a warzone! Yes so in a 10 years you got one mortar attack and that is a war zone?? Oh I guess New York is also a war zone because of those one attacks?……..listen facing one mortar or one attack as such, is not the same as being in a war zone where you are constantly bombarded with mortars, RPG’s bullets etc from all directions…

Secondly I already addressed before what is a war zone and what I am referring to.





And I understand that I'm ignorant to the ways of war but I should still be allowed to have a voice? I have made this very clear to you before, you have every right to express your opinion and indeed you are allowed to have a voice, all I am saying is at the same token, I can show you how your voice on military matters is ignorant (as you now even admit to) and as such you should understand your own ignorance and limitations on commenting on matters of war, when you your self admit that you are ignorant to the ways of war.

Basically in simpler terms, yes you are allowed a voice, though at the same token, I am allowed to show you how that voice is patently ignorant and blind to the realities that you decided to put forth your voice on ;)

I guess I'm not so ignorant now because I lived in a warzone too ;) No trust me you just IMO made a big fool out of yourself to ones on this board that did serve and indeed know what a real combat war zone is but yet have to read some armchair civilian try to say that being vigilant in a city or having one mortar hit a place is like the war zones that SOME of us soldiers have experienced in the urban combat zones that we have been in.

I hope for your sake you weren’t serious about trying to draw actual parallels, but somehow I don’t have faith that you weren’t serious :roll:

Lastly let me just end off by commenting on your long cut and pasts. Listen this is a military forum that soldiers, former soldiers or just general military enthusiasts like to come and converse, share experiences, share and view photos or even like to debate and to the latter I most certainly also enjoy, however what I find absurd and weak, is to have a debate with someone that ends up in the poster simply spewing forth reams of cut and pasts, I find it to be intellectually weak and frankly its not what a proper debate is supposed to be like with two people, I mean if you want some of that info to come here, then quote ONLY what exactly pertains to the opposing viewpoints and to the specifics of the discussion at hand and the rest link it (as I have done), for what you did above was insulting and frankly if I see that again well you can consider this debate over, for I try not to continue debating with what I find to be intellectually weak people when it comes to this subject. On the latter point let me just add that I have been here long enough to realize that when a debate gets as long as ours is, usually most of the rest of the forum has tuned out already and the debate is being mostly read by only you and me, so cutting and pasting long articles, which I did NOT bother to read (I read what you, the opposing debater wrote, but whole long cut and pastes side articles, well I didn’t bother to waste my time on), is simply a waste of time and is pointless to do.



P.S. Wow I am flattered that you took the time to place my name in your avatar location, though I would say no need to falsely flatter yourself as if you effect me that much where I feel the need to go after you, or take over your patio as you put it, hell I even said I wouldn’t mind going shooting with you, though now on second thought, I guess you are all armed and ready and I see even if I came over for that friendly shoot, after what happens to me, you’ll claim to the police that “hey he tried to take over my patio and well it was self defense yada yada… ;) actually on second thought, never mind, as long as we are both armed, I am not worried in the least about you getting off a first shot ;)


Shalom :D

[IDFM203]

Damn it I want to get this to the seventh page already so it can clear up this mess…….. :roll:

Anyways that was my last try…….if a Mod or the administrator (Hood) can properly arrange my post to fit how its supposed to look, I would be most appreciative

Lastly I also ask if again a Mod or Hood can erase all my posts before the last one (keep the last one here as my response to Geezh’a last post) that as well would be most helpful

Thanks :D

[Geezah]

Please go over to Part 2

[Geezah]

edited