View Full Version : Saudi man kills daughter for converting to Christianity
sikh_warrior
08-13-2008, 01:28 AM
Saudi man kills daughter for converting to Christianity
Riyadh: A Saudi man working with the Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice recently killed his daughter for converting to Christianity.
According to sources close to the victim, the religious police member had cut the tongue of the girl and burned her to death following a heated debate on religion.
The death of the girl sent shockwaves and websites where the victim used to write with various nick names have allocated special space to mourn her, while some others closed temporarily in protest.
According to the Saudi Al Ukhdoud news website, the victim wrote an article on the blog of which she was a member under the nickname “Rania” a few days before her murder.
She wrote that her life became an ordeal after her family members grew suspicious about her after a religious discussion with them. She said that her brother found some Christian articles written by her as well as a cross sign on her computer screen. Since then he started to insult her and blamed the internet for pushing her to change her religion.
The “Free Copts” website published a message which it received from a friend of the victim, revealing that the killer is in police custody and that he is being investigated for an honour related crime.
Saudi religious scholars have frequently warned against the dangers of Christian internet websites and satellite TV channels which attract Muslim youngsters to change their religion.
They decreed that watching these channels or browsing these websites which call for conversion to Christianity by various means is against the teachings of Islam.
http://www.gulfnews.com/news/gulf/saudi_arabia/10236558.html
Holycrusader
08-13-2008, 01:30 AM
Off topic or rants section?
Nothing military here IMHO
The_Android
08-13-2008, 01:48 AM
Will the father even be punished for this?
RIP to that brave girl.She must have known that her father was a sadistic ****! before converting.
I hate to say it but Christianity and Islam are in no way reconcilable.They just are not.It is unequal we accept them
in our society.
DaveDash
08-13-2008, 01:58 AM
RIP to that brave girl.She must have known that her father was a sadistic ****! before converting.
I hate to say it but Christianity and Islam are in no way reconcilable.They just are not.It is unequal we accept them
in our society.
I don't see why they are in no way reconcilable. I am Christian and my hairdresser is Muslim.
Not only does he cut my hair without cutting my tongue off, we actually have insightful and interesting conversations about each others faith.
How could that be? :roll:
Religion - or ANY form of believe system - is, has, and always will be an excuse for other root causes of behaviour, often leading to other greater social problems being ignored.
Semeru
08-13-2008, 02:06 AM
the killer is in police custody and that he is being investigated for an honour related crime.
Honor doesn't sugar coat her murder. Throughout history people have consistently cited honor as a reason to go kill something.
Abbadon the Despoiler
08-13-2008, 03:23 AM
****ing stupidity. cut his hands off or something...
Violet Fashion by Mindy
08-13-2008, 05:09 AM
RIP to that brave girl.She must have known that her father was a sadistic ****! before converting.
I hate to say it but Christianity and Islam are in no way reconcilable.They just are not.It is unequal we accept them
in our society.
Even during the Crusades period Christians and Muslims got along fine. This at a point in history when Christianity and Islam were constantly fighting. Did you know that Saladin and Richard the 1st reached an accord to allow Christians and Jews to continue living in Jerusalem and to allow pilgrims into the city this after Richard massacred thousands of Muslims?
Did you know that there was freedom of religion in the Crusader states and the Jews, Muslims and Christians lived happily side by side.
That Saladin allowed many Christian nobility to keep their lands in the Levant?
That the Ottomons despite moving their capitol to Constantinople kept the Eastern Orthodox Church functioning as an important part of the Empire?
That the Ottomons allowed Jews and Christians to go to the Holy Lands to live and to worship?
Throughout history Islam, Christianity and Judaism have gotten along just fine. Even during the mist of war between faiths. What your seeing now though is the use of religion as a means of oppression.
Qandil
08-13-2008, 05:29 AM
Will the father even be punished for this?
Nop.......
Skutatos
08-13-2008, 05:36 AM
Even during the Crusades period Christians and Muslims got along fine. This at a point in history when Christianity and Islam were constantly fighting. Did you know that Saladin and Richard the 1st reached an accord to allow Christians and Jews to continue living in Jerusalem and to allow pilgrims into the city this after Richard massacred thousands of Muslims?
Did you know that there was freedom of religion in the Crusader states and the Jews, Muslims and Christians lived happily side by side.
That Saladin allowed many Christian nobility to keep their lands in the Levant?
That the Ottomons despite moving their capitol to Constantinople kept the Eastern Orthodox Church functioning as an important part of the Empire?
That the Ottomons allowed Jews and Christians to go to the Holy Lands to live and to worship?
Throughout history Islam, Christianity and Judaism have gotten along just fine. Even during the mist of war between faiths. What your seeing now though is the use of religion as a means of oppression.
I often find myself disagreeing with you, but in this case, 100% agreement.
Henry's Fork
08-13-2008, 07:34 AM
Somehow i dont see any honor whatsoever in murdering your child. Some cultures need to leave the stone age behind and get with the fckin program.
Even during the Crusades period Christians and Muslims got along fine. This at a point in history when Christianity and Islam were constantly fighting. Did you know that Saladin and Richard the 1st reached an accord to allow Christians and Jews to continue living in Jerusalem and to allow pilgrims into the city this after Richard massacred thousands of Muslims?
Did you know that there was freedom of religion in the Crusader states and the Jews, Muslims and Christians lived happily side by side.
That Saladin allowed many Christian nobility to keep their lands in the Levant?
That the Ottomons despite moving their capitol to Constantinople kept the Eastern Orthodox Church functioning as an important part of the Empire?
That the Ottomons allowed Jews and Christians to go to the Holy Lands to live and to worship?
Throughout history Islam, Christianity and Judaism have gotten along just fine. Even during the mist of war between faiths. What your seeing now though is the use of religion as a means of oppression.
You only scratch the surface. It's like saying China is a democratic society.
Study islam and learn the difference between the Ummah and the rest (who can be enslaved, raped etc.).
Playtime
08-13-2008, 11:30 AM
You only scratch the surface. It's like saying China is a democratic society.
Study islam and learn the difference between the Ummah and the rest (who can be enslaved, raped etc.).
did you study what the bible says about the non-belivers?
pot calling the kettle black?
oldsoak
08-13-2008, 11:50 AM
did you study what the bible says about the non-belivers?
pot calling the kettle black?
Hmm.
Whose Bible ? The Jews or Samaritans dont find the New Testament relevant, and I'd rather be suffering under a strict orthodox Jewish state than a strict Islamic one. At least I can drink, dance, smoke and the women in the family wont have to look like Darth Vader everytime they go out.
rgjbloke
08-13-2008, 12:21 PM
Your kids are your kids are your kids. I do have a real problem reading about people murdering their children for ANY reason. I could not harm my children for anything in the world no matter what anybody said to me was a justifiable cause full stop. I also don't know of any religion in the world including Islam that says there are occasions when it is justifiable to murder your children. This sadistic murderous thug has his own reasons for doing this, I'm sure and I hope that one day, he rots in what ever particular version of hell his religion decrees for him.
Ordie
08-13-2008, 01:32 PM
RIP- May God be with her.
The Wahhabbist (Saudi form of Islam) is the most uncompromising and has hijacked Islam since the mid 20th century.
If she indeed died because of her conversion, she can be considered for Canonization and eventual Sainthood in the Roman Catholic Church.
Her story reminds me of St. Barbara.
Mackie
08-13-2008, 01:45 PM
Saudi religious scholars have frequently warned against the dangers of Christian internet websites and satellite TV channels which attract Muslim youngsters to change their religion.
If the Israelis or western nations would be huffy like the Saudis, then the Saudis should secure 90% of their TV stations.
Saudi form of Religion is the fastest growing in India, and it is wont be pretty here in some time. Heck, even other muslims are scared of this nuts. Not to mention the fact, the government instead of tackling it, seems happy to cover up and appease, 80% Hindus are acting gandhi to this very serious problem
tyovan
08-13-2008, 03:58 PM
A modern martyr for the Faith..
RIP
http://www.ocadow.org/images/christ-the-teacher_i.jpg
Don't even know what to say about something as ludicrous as this. Here I was thinking the Middle Ages were over.
budgie
08-13-2008, 04:12 PM
The “Free Copts” website published a message which it received from a friend of the victim, revealing that the killer is in police custody and that he is being investigated for an honour related crime.
Honour-related? There is no honour in killing your own family members. None.
Ordie
08-13-2008, 04:23 PM
Honour-related? There is no honour in killing your own family members. None.
Desert culture.
Where water, gold and honor are scarce and traded like commodity.
You give, take and trade honor between tribes and family.
The Saudi's also places an importance on face. They would kill or die to preserve and restore face.
^^^ I dont think Sikh Warrior(true blue islamophobe ;) ) agrees with Honour Killing, ironic isnt it., To have the word honour associated with it.
The Saudi's also places an importance on face. They would kill or die to preserve and restore face.
State another culture which takes 'face' very seriously today.
Ordie, Do visit when you have time the Military History and Tactics Sub Fora.
Ulytau
08-13-2008, 04:37 PM
Even during the Crusades period Christians and Muslims got along fine. This at a point in history when Christianity and Islam were constantly fighting. Did you know that Saladin and Richard the 1st reached an accord to allow Christians and Jews to continue living in Jerusalem and to allow pilgrims into the city this after Richard massacred thousands of Muslims?
Did you know that there was freedom of religion in the Crusader states and the Jews, Muslims and Christians lived happily side by side.
That Saladin allowed many Christian nobility to keep their lands in the Levant?
That the Ottomons despite moving their capitol to Constantinople kept the Eastern Orthodox Church functioning as an important part of the Empire?
That the Ottomons allowed Jews and Christians to go to the Holy Lands to live and to worship?
Throughout history Islam, Christianity and Judaism have gotten along just fine. Even during the mist of war between faiths. What your seeing now though is the use of religion as a means of oppression.
Rememberin a pic last of 19. century and startin of the 20. century..
Christians celebrating their Christmas and rememberin Hz.Isa ''Jesus'' and same time Muslims and Jews are watchin em..
Or same time everyone celebratin a religious festival together ''Like Ramadan'' about vahabi ideology Ottoman had really serious problem with em too who defeated em who executed their leader come to really important positions at Ottomans also we had similar problem at when we founded our Repulic too at 1926 they start to destroy every graves same for the Hz.Muhammed and his relatives when Mustafa Kemal ATATURK hear that sendin a message to king and saying if you do that i goin to send my army to your land..
I dont blame to girl especially after what she seen any example?
A girl goin out with his boyfriend a group stoppin em rapin the girl but judge punishin girl but same time one of her prince takin a woman from Egpyt cause he likes her with his special plane..
When their people have serious economical problem sendin their car to other country for an useless thing with his special plane..
Takin bribe for givin chance a business about weapon selling when he is really rich and when he neednt money..
Seems they need to look mirror about some issues but who tryin to change topic or who tryin to this topic as a lets blame to every muslims topic or still usin as a rant;
I living in a touristic place and seein many Christian-Muslim marriage and seen many how some parents makin their life as a hell also i had similar problem before too about my ex parents ''Dont wanna say her nationality cause i dont wanna see flame war'' reason was my race and my interests ''Caring about history mostly''
But yesterday who supported em who close their eyes today cause they sellin weapon to em or signin for billion dolars dont say nothing seriously..
After Sarkozy visited em didnt gratz em about human rights after signin a serious pact?
There is many historical sources about religious issues Amin Maalouf can help about this issues..
Thank You..
And Rip to girl..I hope one day women in middle east can remember their REAL power..
Ordie
08-13-2008, 04:41 PM
^^^ I dont think Sikh Warrior(true blue islamophobe ;) ) agrees with Honour Killing, ironic isnt it., To have the word honour associated with it.
Honor = reputation
Reputation determines the family's status within a society.
Ordie
08-13-2008, 04:43 PM
State another culture which takes 'face' very seriously today.
Chinese
The whole Olympics is about "face".
Honor = reputation
Reputation determines the family's status within a society.
I live in India you know, that above is the UNWRITTEN LAW here!!! The Family Name, Heritage blah blah. That said, We dont go cutting tongue or something, I have heard families being split and disowing one's they dont agree with. But the story at hand, is pure barbarism
I have known baptist dads that would likely.... if their child converted to Islam.... beat the shiiiiit out of them too possibly nearing the point of death.
Sigh..... "gods"
pfffft
Mr.Armageddon
08-13-2008, 06:08 PM
Saudi man kills daughter for converting to Christianity
They decreed that watching these channels or browsing these websites which call for conversion to Christianity by various means is against the teachings of Islam.
I thought senselessly killing people were also against the teachings of Islam? I guess the father and many followers ignore that important part.
I thought senselessly killing people were also against the teachings of Islam? I guess the father and many followers ignore that important part.
Well isnt it safe to assume most faiths...have those that dont follow the rules?
Most American men on death row consider themselves christians... FBI pedophile profiles show over 80% of admitted child molestors consider themselves christians.
All this shock and surprise....is....surprising.
miguelencanarias
08-13-2008, 06:35 PM
Honor doesn't sugar coat her murder. It does, actually, as far as some Muslim countries are concerned. Google honor murders in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and some African countries. Guess what: that bastard is likely to get away with it.
Ordie
08-13-2008, 08:16 PM
Guess what: that bastard is likely to get away with it.
Just like Tomás de Torquemada
At one time in Spain and in Latin American countries, one could get away with a crime of passion on the premise of preserving one's honor.
MaDuce
08-13-2008, 09:16 PM
Saudi Arabia is a perfect opportunity for anthropologist to study a living breathing example of bronze age civilization.
CPL Trevoga
08-14-2008, 12:25 AM
What kind of animal kills their own blood?
Deadpool721
08-14-2008, 01:28 AM
What kind of animal kills their own blood?
the intolerant, bigoted kind living in the stone age who forces their women to wear veils and prohibits them from driving; oppression of human rights at its best, considering Saudi Arabia has lasted longer than Nazi Germany.
Delta_Charlie08
08-14-2008, 01:49 AM
State another culture which takes 'face' very seriously today.
Ordie, Do visit when you have time the Military History and Tactics Sub Fora.
Would Japan be one of those cultures, countries??
miguelencanarias
08-14-2008, 03:05 AM
Just like Tomás de Torquemada
At one time in Spain and in Latin American countries, one could get away with a crime of passion on the premise of preserving one's honor.I fail to see your point, frankly.
However, isn't it funny that you are mentioning MEDIEVAL Spain?
Karaahmetoglu
08-14-2008, 03:56 AM
There is a prayer in Islam that we say during our 5 prays a day, it is in Arabic but the Translation is this. Mohammed went to Allah and asked what should we do to the non Muslims Allah told him talk about Islam, those who will listen will listen, for those who don't leave them alone.
PeterRJG
08-14-2008, 05:24 AM
I don't see why they are in no way reconcilable. I am Christian and my hairdresser is Muslim.
Not only does he cut my hair without cutting my tongue off, we actually have insightful and interesting conversations about each others faith.
How could that be? :roll:
Religion - or ANY form of believe system - is, has, and always will be an excuse for other root causes of behaviour, often leading to other greater social problems being ignored.
How could that be? You live in NZ, a country predominantly Christian. Your wonderful hairdressing dude is in a religious minority and would be in no popular, moral or ethical position to carry out anything.
Ordie
08-14-2008, 09:29 AM
I fail to see your point, frankly.
However, isn't it funny that you are mentioning MEDIEVAL Spain?
Spain (Al Andaluz) was once an Arab Muslim country where preserving one's honor was a norm and a carry over into modern Spanish and Latin American culture.
Torquemada, the chief inquisitor, is responsible for the forced conversion, expulsion through torture and death of Muslims and Jews.
Ironically, it was the Muslim Ottomans (Custodians of Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem at the time) that provided refuge to many of Spain's Jews.
^^^ I dont think Sikh Warrior(true blue islamophobe ;) ) agrees with Honour Killing, ironic isnt it., To have the word honour associated with it.
NObody agrees with honour killing. AS far Sikh warrior is concerned well before posting this news due to his islamophobia :) he should have taken into account the recent honour killing incidents in India just recently few months back where Sikh girls were either killed by their fathers or brothers for honour killing in India.
I am sure there are honour killings in India, The DIFFERENCE IS WE PUNISH THEM, HAND THEM DEATH SENTENCES.! Unlike our friendly neighbours and the true embodiment of Human rights Saudi Arabia.
In a country where Honour Killing has been sanctioned by High Court(Pakistani Judicial Bench), that is by acquitting hundreds of people who have done this henious crime. The Government which is reflective of the Society is something that doesnt understand the term : HUMAN RIGHTS
LazerLordz
08-14-2008, 02:05 PM
The girl's a true martyr, her father unfortunately will burn in Hell.
Laconian
08-14-2008, 03:44 PM
It was a bold move for her to convert. May her soul rest in peace.
wildcat
08-14-2008, 03:45 PM
may she rest in peace, with the angels.
La8pv
08-14-2008, 05:40 PM
The girl's a true martyr, her father unfortunately will burn in Hell.
Or maybe she is burning in hell...
Or maybe she is burning in hell...
Then god, whoever and whereever he/she is not worth spending time on. Innocence is such a gift, and here this girl had convictions at such a tender age. She is brave.
La8pv
08-14-2008, 06:05 PM
Then god, whoever and whereever he/she is not worth spending time on. Innocence is such a gift, and here this girl had convictions at such a tender age. She is brave.
Unfortunately not spending time on god might also have gotten her killed.
Even in the US. http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=139808
SrB-23Q
08-15-2008, 02:21 AM
may she rest in peace.
Calanen
08-15-2008, 02:55 AM
Unfortunately not spending time on god might also have gotten her killed.
Even in the US. http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=139808
Odds are far greater in her part of the world. Sharia law says apostasy leads to the sentence of death.
And also, any openly converting muslims in the West put their lives on the line. Not the same for someone who switches from Christianity or Judaism.
m.i.t
08-15-2008, 10:22 AM
very sick news.. l cant belive to see people are still killed for faiths...
l hope that father will burn..
ZULU9niner
08-15-2008, 04:43 PM
Where in the Koran does it say that you should cut out your childs tongue and burn them for having faith in something thats different?
Hilbert
08-15-2008, 04:51 PM
Sickening.
R.I.P. to the girl.
Karaahmetoglu
08-15-2008, 04:53 PM
Where in the Koran does it say that you should cut out your childs tongue and burn them for having faith in something thats different?
No where, infact Allah said to Mohammed those who want islam will embrace it, those who don't leave them a lone. This is what we say in our prays.
Ordie
08-15-2008, 05:01 PM
Where in the Koran does it say that you should cut out your childs tongue and burn them for having faith in something thats different?
Deuterononmy 13:6-9
ZULU9niner
08-15-2008, 05:54 PM
Deuteronomy 13:6-9
Listen to this passage (http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/audio/play.php?aid=26&book=5&chapter=13)
View commentary related to this passage (http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/?action=getCommentaryText&cid=22&source=2&seq=i.5.13.2)
6"(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut%2013:6-9;%201%20Kin%2018:40&version=49#cen-NASB-5279A))If your brother, your mother's son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, '(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut%2013:6-9;%201%20Kin%2018:40&version=49#cen-NASB-5279B))Let us go and serve other gods' (whom neither you nor your fathers have known,
7of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end),
8(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut%2013:6-9;%201%20Kin%2018:40&version=49#cen-NASB-5281C))you shall not yield to him or listen to him; (D (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut%2013:6-9;%201%20Kin%2018:40&version=49#cen-NASB-5281D))and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. 9"(E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut%2013:6-9;%201%20Kin%2018:40&version=49#cen-NASB-5282E))But you shall surely kill him; (F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deut%2013:6-9;%201%20Kin%2018:40&version=49#cen-NASB-5282F))your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
Ah, so being a Muslim, he takes the word of a Christian/Jewish text to justify him murdering his child in the name of a single God. I'd prefer if others with the same intentions start taking a leaf out of a Buddist text learning not to harm anything.
Faith? I have faith. I have faith in my buddy watching my back
Calanen
08-15-2008, 07:12 PM
No where, infact Allah said to Mohammed those who want islam will embrace it, those who don't leave them a lone. This is what we say in our prays.
That is Al-Taqiya habibi. You know very well that there is a huge tradition of both killing unbelievers, and more especially, killing 'apostates' any who reject their religion, the islamic religion, once they become or are muslims.
ن بدّل دينه فاقتلوه
"Whoever changes his religion, kill him". (Bukhari)
016.106YUSUFALI: Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/699/apostateislamyo0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rechtsgutachten_betr_Apostasie_im_Islam.jpg
Author: al-Azhr, the Egyptian Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs
This Fatawa describes how an Egyptian man turned apostate and the subsequent punishment prescribed for him by the Al-Azhr Fatawa council. The following translation is a rough guide:
In the Name of Allah the Most Beneficient the Most Merciful. Al-Azhr Council of Fatawa. This question was presented by Mr. Ahmed Darwish and brought forward by [name obscured] who is of German nationality. A man whose religion was Islam and his nationality is Egyptian married a German Christian and the couple agreed that the husband would join the Christian faith and doctrine. 1) What is the Islamic ruling in relation to this man? What are the punishments prescribed for this act? 2) Are his children considered Muslim or Christian? The Answer: All praise is to Allah, the Lord of the Universe and salutations on the leader of the righteous, our master Muhammed, his family and all of his companions.
Thereafter: This man has committed apostasy; he must be given a chance to repent and if he does not then he must be killed according to Shariah. As far as his children are concerned, as long as they are children they are considered Muslim, but after they reach the age of puberty, then if they remain with Islam they are Muslim, but if they leave Islam and they do not repent they must be killed and Allah knows best. Seal of Al-Azhr Head of the Fatawa Council of Al-Azhr. Abdullah al-Mishadd (عبد الله المشد) 23rd September 1978.
Also, here is an Islamic perspective...
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/12406
Why should a person who disbelieves after becoming Muslim be executed?
The punishment for the apostate is execution. Why such harshness?.
Praise be to Allaah.
The punishment for apostasy from the religion of Islam is execution. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever”
[al-Baqarah 2:217]
And it was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:
“Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh.
What this hadeeth means is that whoever leaves Islam and changes to another religion and persists in that and does not repent, is to be executed. It was also proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a person who bears witness that there is no god but Allaah and that I am the Messenger of Allaah except in three cases: a life for a life, a previously-married person who commits adultery, and one who leaves Islam and forsakes the jamaa’ah.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari and Muslim.
This harsh punishment is for a number of reasons:
1 – This punishment is a deterrent to anyone who wants to enter Islam just to follow the crowd or for hypocritical purposes. This will motivate him to examine the matter thoroughly and not to proceed unless he understands the consequences of that in this world and in the Hereafter. The one who announces his Islam has agreed to adhere to all the rulings of Islam of his own free will and consent, one of which rulings is that he is to be executed if he apostatizes from the faith.
2 – The one who announces his Islam has joined the jamaa’ah (main body) of the Muslims, and whoever joins the main body of the Muslims is required to be completely loyal and to support it and protect it against anything that may lead to fitnah or destroy it or cause division. Apostasy from Islam means forsaking the jamaa’ah and its divine order, and has a harmful effect on it. Execution is the greatest deterrent that will prevent people from committing such a crime.
3 – Those Muslims who are weak in faith and others who are against Islam may think that the apostate has only left Islam because of what he has found out about its real nature, because if it were the truth then he would never have turned away from it. So they learn from him all the doubts, lies and fabrications which are aimed at extinguishing the light of Islam and putting people off from it. In this case executing the apostate is obligatory, in order to protect the true religion from the defamation of the liars and to protect the faith of its adherents and remove obstacles from the path of those who are entering the faith.
4 – We also say that the death penalty exists in the modern laws of man to protect the system from disorder in some situation and to protect society against certain crimes which may cause its disintegration, such as drugs etc. If execution can serve as a deterrent to protect man-made systems, then it is more appropriate that the true religion of Allaah, which Falsehood cannot come to it from before it or behind it [cf. Fussilat 41:42], and which is all goodness, happiness and tranquility in this world and in the Hereafter should punish those who commit acts of aggression against it and seek to extinguish its light and defame its image, and who fabricate lies against it to justify their apostasy and deviation.
Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 21/234-231.
The fact that you may be able to find a passage in the bible of similar effect, is meaningless given that there are not any sovereign countries with the power of the law and the state enforcing biblical law, nor millions of followers who hold that view. This whole comparative religious exercise that is used to cover up the crimes of the islamic world is really getting quite boring. Its just an extension of the white guilt complex - oh but christianity is just as bad..see..on the flimsiest of bases.
ZULU9niner
08-15-2008, 07:29 PM
There's a fundemental flaw in every single religion.
There's a human in the middle of the information feed from god/gods to the general audience.
This person believes he is following the will of his god? Fine.
I'll believe in the Budist Karma principle when someone carries out the need to fillet him.
Calanen
08-15-2008, 07:34 PM
There's a fundemental flaw in every single religion.
Post modernism, moral relativism...everything is relative, nothing is bad or good, true for me, true for you...etc. I am not religious at all. I see only one religion that has large groups of radicals sponsored by sovereign states, and that is intolerant, brittle and explosive to any perceived criticism, that subjugates women, kills homo******s, and has legions of violent followers prepared to kill other people who do not share their point of view. That's a big fundamental flaw.
There's a human in the middle of the information feed from god/gods to the general audience.
Assuming it even comes from a God or Gods..
This person believes he is following the will of his god? Fine.
I'll believe in the Budist Karma principle when someone carries out the need to fillet him.
Maybe. But that wont happen where he lives I believe. It is generally accepted that there is no punishment for killing an apostate.
ZULU9niner
08-15-2008, 08:12 PM
Assuming it even comes from a God or Gods..
.
Thats my point. If I said I was THE channel of God/Gods because it/them spoke to me, who's to say for sure I'm not telling the truth or a lie.
Maybe. But that wont happen where he lives I believe. It is generally accepted that there is no punishment for killing an apostate
This, I know and is why I'm even replying to this thread. The futility of it all.
I'm not religious either and I agree with what you have to say. I wonder if there was ever a time when humans had no concept of religion, what would be there reasons for killing another. For fun, food, mating rights?
Its just so pathetic
Calanen
08-15-2008, 08:28 PM
I'm not religious either and I agree with what you have to say. I wonder if there was ever a time when humans had no concept of religion, what would be there reasons for killing another. For fun, food, mating rights?
As long as there will be things that the human being cannot adequately explain there will be religion. But there is also the petty jealousies associated with being angry with someone who disagrees with you. Believing in the divine causes no problems - attacking others because they dont believe what you do (and I mean, physically attacking) causes many problems.
ZULU9niner
08-15-2008, 08:53 PM
attacking others because they dont believe what you do (and I mean, physically attacking) causes many problems.
As we have seen here
wigon
08-15-2008, 08:55 PM
Saudi Arabia is a perfect opportunity for anthropologist to study a living breathing example of bronze age civilization.
I'm an anthropologist and I've lived in Saudi Araiba. Um...sorry...nothing even remotely close to the Bronze Age.
People seem to be taking what they already believed out of that article.
If you read more closely, even other Saudis were shocked and horrified.
This guy was part of THE RELIGIOUS POLICE there in Saudi Arabia. That means he was THE MOST FANATICAL of the Wahhabis there. How is this surprising? How would he face his collegeagues if they found out his daughter had converted to Christianity. This is a shame and dishonour that would have not only made him lose his job, but also would have disgraced him and his family name forever in his belief. I am not saying it is right, but in the most conservative and extreme parts of that culture, the stereotypical rebellious "Preacher's Daughter" gets killed by Daddy.
To those of you who are saying how savage and barbaric Saudis are regarding "honour", when was the last time you watched an action movie? Chances are the theme was heavily satuated with issues of personal honor. I find it helarious that Americans will LOVE a movie like "300" or "GLADIATOR". Yet they do not realize that what they are admiring is a similar sense of honor that still surivives in the Middle East. We romanticize it and yet hate it if we actually see what honor really meant in Ancient Roman and Greek history for example. That sense of honor (which indeed can be extremely brutal) never entirely died out in the Middle East. Even in parts of Eastern Europe and in parts of rural Greece and Italy, you still have many of the same beliefs that most of us would regard as backwards and savage.
I'm not saying its right. But its the sad remains of our past that thrives in tribal cultures. This is then mixed in with extremist Islamic teachings concerning apostacy.
Yes Islam DOES say that they may kill an apostate. However, what can be argued (and what moderate Muslims argue) is that most Muslims NEVER take a Shahada (oath of allegiance to Islam) in which they fully in mind, body, and spirit, proclaim themselves as Muslims without coercion. How can somebody who just happened to be born Muslims and forced to practice the religion, be counted as a Muslim? In addition it can be argued that such a law is not obligatory. Very few Islamic laws are an obligation and have been interpreted in a wide number of ways all through Islamic history. Salafi however interpret ALL SHARIAT law as obligatory or else the person is not a real Muslim if they refuse to follow such laws.
This is perfect Kharijite theology. These were early Muslim radicals who stated identical concepts as Wahhabi/Salafi. They were killed off by the other Muslims eventually but not before they helped cement the divide in the Islamic community between Sunni and Shi'a.
Calanen... on your bit about post-modernist moral relativism. I consider myself a cultural and moral relativist. However like most conservatives, you misunderstand these terms. Again and again those terms are used to delegitimize anyone who argues for "understanding" the perceived enemy.
What they mean is NOT that you can't form any judgement about an issue. What it means is that you should fully understand the cultural, historical, political, economic, sociological, psychological, and religious context of a particular issue BEFORE you render judgement.
As Sun Tzu repeated often, "Know Thy Enemy".
Through understanding comes also the knowledge of how to change your enemy.
Wigon
wigon
08-15-2008, 09:06 PM
As long as there will be things that the human being cannot adequately explain there will be religion. But there is also the petty jealousies associated with being angry with someone who disagrees with you. Believing in the divine causes no problems - attacking others because they dont believe what you do (and I mean, physically attacking) causes many problems.
What you are describing is what we are all in engaged in right now (aside from the physical violence) on this forum. You nor I are above that. We all have egos and beliefs, some of which we are very passionate about and are willing to kill and die for. Why were Austrailian soldiers fighting and dying in the Middle East? Surely they believed in something worty of sacrificing their lives for and, when necessary to kill for. If Muslims took over Australia would you be willing to fight and die to defend secularism?
Just as you believe, others believe the opposite. The question is, do you attempt to bridge that gap of mutual understanding or do you throw up the walls to the mind, dig into your trenches, and go to war?
I tend to believe that human beings can go beyond our primate origins and animal instincts. I believe that we can use our intellect to not only develop technology to solve our probelms but to be creative in solving complex political problems with the same gusto.
Wigon
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