View Full Version : Indian poor urged to eat Rats to fight food crisis
Indian poor urged to eat Rats to fight food crisis
An official in the Indian state of Bihar has come up with a new idea to encourage low caste poor people to cope with food shortages - rat meat.
The Principal Secretary of the state's Welfare Department, Vijay Prakash, said that he was advancing his proposal after "much survey and ground work".
Bihar's extremely poor Musahar community are rat-eaters by tradition.
The Musahar are on the bottom strata of the caste system with the lowest literacy rate and per capita income.
Less than one percent of their 2.3 million population in Bihar is literate and 98% are landless.
Delicacy
Mr Prakash says his proposals to popularise rat meat eating are intended to uplift their social-economic condition.
People now prefer to eat rat meat instead of chicken or goat as it comes cheaper and is more tasty and healthy
Vijay Prakash
"There are twin advantages of this proposal. First, we can save about half of our food grain stocks by catching and eating rats and secondly we can improve the economic condition of the Musahar community," he told the BBC.
According to Mr Prakash, about 50% of total food grain stocks in the country are eaten away by rodents. He argues that by promoting rat eating more grain will be preserved while hunger among the Musahar community will be reduced.
He said that rat meat is not only a delicacy but a protein-enriched food, widely popular in Thailand and France.
"Rats have almost no bones and are quite rich in nutrition. People at large don't know this cuisine fact but gradually they are catching up." However he may find it difficult to popularise such a strategy in a conservative society like Bihar and other north Indian states.
Mr Prakash says that he has recipes to make rat eating a delicacy, which he now wants to distribute to all the hotels in Bihar.
He also wants to encourage rat farming in the same way that poultry is farmed.
While eating rat meat is still stigmatised in urban areas of the country, Mr Prakash says that his research has revealed that it is a popular food item in some parts of Bihar where it is known at roadside hotels by the name of "patal-bageri".
This is not the first time that the department secretary has come out with such an innovative idea. Earlier, he proposed to recruit eunuchs as security guards to maternity wards in hospitals.
"Yes, that proposal is in its advance stage and we'll very soon engage them in various social activities of our department," he said.
And the welfare secretary's next plan? "I'll make snake catching popular for the economic value of its venom," he said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7557107.stm
BBC
Jana,
Unlike the previous forum we met, This is a very serious fora and the mods will not entertain you unless you have serious issues to discuss about. Be very careful about how you address other people, as racist language will not be permitted here.
Anyways, Keep posting.
Jana,
Unlike the previous forum we met, This is a very serious fora and the mods will not entertain you unless you have serious issues to discuss about. Be very careful about how you address other people, as racist language will not be permitted here.
Anyways, Keep posting.
:) well i dont think so i had used any racist language here nor i had used any in other forum unlike you.
Anyway i had posted the news as was reported by BBC and even your Indian newspapers as well.
BTW the thread says political discussion and Rants ;)
and the news posted above is not even a rant.
Its a seriouse idea floated by your own Indian official.
read the news carefully, the Indian official says he has even talked to the big five-star hotels to keep cooked rats on menu.
The world is faced with food crisis isnt it ??? while India is hit by the same crisis rather this indian official said that as there was too much poor in India hence they need to start eating rats to fight the food shortage.
Now dear your comment on this idea as Indian ??????
Do you consider it alternate to other food item ???
You havent in the post, but I know your history all to well. Please dont address me as "dear", as You are not to me. Do use my handle.
I have eaten a Wild Rat and it is delicious, if that is how people have to stay alive, Why Not. Unlike Pakistan, we are very very poor.
Calanen
08-14-2008, 09:55 AM
I'm more of a mouse man myself. Rats are too big a helping generally.
But roadkill can also be an important source of food for the poor. That and dumptster diving. Everyone needs to think creatively to save scarce resources.
I'm more of a mouse man myself. Rats are too big a helping generally.
But roadkill can also be an important source of food for the poor. That and dumptster diving. Everyone needs to think creatively to save scarce resources.
Did you see the Top Gear Road Kill in America. Hillarious!!!
If there is anything in Which brings the best in me, Jermey Clarkson. Pure Genius.
Mofreaka
08-14-2008, 09:59 AM
Well, i did not know that. Now if I ever have to catch a rat to survive, i know it will be delicious.
Nothing beats Sasuages!!!
oldsoak
08-14-2008, 10:01 AM
I think I'll do vegetarian, thanks.
I've had to eat a few odd beasts on survival courses, and having had the livestock found living inside rodents shown to me with some glee, it was a case of hindquarters only and almost charred at that !
You havent in the post, but I know your history all to well. Please dont address me as "dear", as You are not to me. Do use my handle.
I have eaten a Wild Rat and it is delicious, if that is how people have to stay alive, Why Not. Unlike Pakistan, we are very very poor.
:) Mr Adux when i use any racist remark then you have the right to cry foul not before that. And forget about the history as yours is worse than mine.
As far as eating rats to stay alive well that is the last option for human that too in the most unfavourable conditions.
Instead of advocating rats as food the officials and people like you must come up with ideas and plans to eradicate poverty.
Poverty is a global problem it would be much better to deal it instead of advocating wiered ideas like eating rats.
Ordie
08-14-2008, 10:07 AM
I guess they haven't heard about the bubonic plague.
Instead of offering rats, perhaps India should invest on building better roads and lines of communications.
Better roads = better food distribution without spoilage and without extra costs. India has a billion people, put them to work in re-building India.
The reason why the farmers are killing themselves is that they cannot make a profit on yields due to the lousy road system. By the time the food reaches to the market, half of it is lost. Thus contributing towards inflation and shortages.
I think I'll do vegetarian, thanks.
!
:) Sir that is the best way but keeping in view the changing envirnoment and threat to greenry :( it seems people like us the vegetarians will have to be in a fix what to do
Beef, Chicken, Peacock, Deer, Rat, Snake, Pig, Boar, Water Buffalo, Aligator, Kangroo Monkey, Rabbit, Lamb, Mutton, Crow, Cricket, Qauil, Pigeon and Fish...
I guess they haven't heard about the bubonic plague.
Instead of offering rats, perhaps India should invest on building better roads and lines of communications.
Better roads = better food distribution without spoilage and without extra costs. India has a billion people, put them to work in re-building India.
The reason why the farmers are killing themselves is that they cannot make a profit on yields due to the lousy road system. By the time the food reaches to the market, half of it is lost. Thus contributing towards inflation and shortages.
Do Invest in Indian Infrastructural Bonds. 150 billion Dollars have been allocated for the next 5 years for Basic Infrastructure. To be Honest, The problems at hand are bit over-whelming. What can be done is done, It is the only from 1993 the Indian Government has Money in their kitty. Things are bleak but improving.
I guess they haven't heard about the bubonic plague.
Instead of offering rats, perhaps India should invest on building better roads and lines of communications.
Better roads = better food distribution without spoilage and without extra costs. India has a billion people, put them to work in re-building India.
The reason why the farmers are killing themselves is that they cannot make a profit on yields due to the lousy road system. By the time the food reaches to the market, half of it is lost. Thus contributing towards inflation and shortages.
Sir what can be consequences of rat eating ??? Can it cause any disease like plague.???
oldsoak
08-14-2008, 10:24 AM
No, but it brings you in contact with the rat fleas that carry it.
No, but it brings you in contact with the rat fleas that carry it.
urrghhhhhhhhhh it means one is at risk if he/she kills well i dont know if we call it killing a rat, slaughtering a rate or what :roll: for cooking.
kosse
08-14-2008, 10:34 AM
Has India considered one child policy or some similar tough measures?
Has India considered one child policy or some similar tough measures?
NO.
It goes against our value system. Right to Freedom.
The Government has NO ROLE in one's HOME.
PREAMBLE OF INDIA
http://www.iloveindia.com/images/national-emblem.jpg
WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all its citizens:
JUSTICE, social, economic and political;
LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship;
EQUALITY of status and of opportunity;
and to promote among them all
FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and integrity of the Nation;
IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, do HEREBY ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION.
Has India considered one child policy or some similar tough measures?
There was a recently just few days back a news story according to which one of the states of India was mulling ti impose a law under which the couple will be fined to a heavy fine if they go for more than or two childern.
Let me check if i could post that news
kosse
08-14-2008, 10:42 AM
Well, if you run out of food because of a bad harvest don't expect anyone to take in your refugees if you did not lift a finger to try to prevent the overopulation problem in the first place.
kosse
08-14-2008, 10:43 AM
There was a recently just few days back a news story according to which one of the states of India was mulling ti impose a law under which the couple will be fined to a heavy fine if they go for more than or two childern.
Let me check if i could post that news
This sounds like the right direction. Overpopulation can't be ignored. If some freedoms must be abolished to curb the population growth so be it. This is my opinion.
This sounds like the right direction. Overpopulation can't be ignored. If some freedoms must be abolished to curb the population growth so be it. This is my opinion.
Yes sir indeed population controle is an important part of containing poverty as well as aimed at using available resources judiciously.
During my recent visit to India i had noticed that in South India the agricultural the bigest soruce of food in this part of the world has been destroyed badly in the name of industrilization.
Secondly the problem which is contributing to already overflowing population of India is the desire by most of the Indians to get a male child.
In a bid to get a male child the couples opt for bearing more and more childern on the one hand while on the other they are killing millions of unborn baby girls :(
seraosha
08-14-2008, 10:59 AM
Track rabbit isn't that bad compared to going hungry.
Klatuu
08-14-2008, 12:24 PM
Hungry people don't need to be "urged" to eat. Barring some mental issue, hungry people will what ever is edible.
Kosse,
We can only educate and tell our people. The Government has no right in sterlizing anyone. Overpopulation is caused by the people of this country and they have to bear brunt of it. We may have nothing left to eat, but I still dont want us to be the Chinese. We have our Freedom, if we loose our ideals. Then we are no longer Indians. And the story above is crap. I am here, and there is plenty of food around. India going capitalist is something our liberal friends BBC hasnt liked at all. I mean if India becomes rich, where will they go to do their charity.
kosse
08-14-2008, 12:40 PM
Kosse,
We can only educate and tell our people. The Government has no right in sterlizing anyone.
I wasn't talking about forced sterilisation. That's disgusting. Two kids per family maximum and if there is more hefty fines. I don't see how that's taking away freedoms. Many other things are totally banned for "common good" and nobody seems to care.
I wasn't talking about forced sterilisation. That's disgusting. Two kids per family maximum and if there is more hefty fines. I don't see how that's taking away freedoms. Many other things are totally banned for "common good" and nobody seems to care.
That is already being done! And I dont agree to it. You have to understand this particular Government till 10-15 years had virtually NO MONEY, nor did its PEOPLE.
black mamba
08-14-2008, 01:18 PM
"India going capitalist is something our liberal friends BBC hasnt liked at all. I mean if India becomes rich, where will they go to do their charity."
that is sure is a weird argument!!!
California Joe
08-14-2008, 01:29 PM
How about sh*t canning your retarded caste system?
wildcat
08-14-2008, 01:32 PM
amen CJ, but curry does sound, good, Think it is curry day today, I want a curry, Rat tikka masala, sounds yummy
seathru
08-14-2008, 01:35 PM
Some Westerners insist that the one-child policy is an infringement on personal freedom. But the flip side is that personal freedom is based on social responsibility. There will be no real personal freedom if the society is destroyed. So one-child policy can also be viewed as a way to enforce personal duties for the society. There is no moral high horse to ride in this matter.
How about sh*t canning your retarded caste system?
California Joe,
It is already done legally and people.Just like eradication of segregation in the US. That doesnt mean the society has changed, in the cities nobody cares, while in rural areas people are still castist. Indian Government has done what it can, and they are doing as much as they can. But the evil that was in the people for 5000 years, is not going to go in 60 years.
And before people come up with the Higher Caste bull****, Please not My family therefore myself(I dont consider myself a Hindu) is from a LOWER CASTE.
black mamba
08-14-2008, 01:38 PM
are you from the LOWEST caste or a caste lower than the brahmins?
wildcat
08-14-2008, 01:41 PM
There will be no real personal freedom if the society is destroyed.
what ever, all men are born the same, naked, equal, all die, now making a group live in at the bottom because they born into a family or race, it wrong. India needs to get off it high horse on this, eat some humble pie, and encourage equality for all. making people equal does not destroy society.
are you from the LOWEST caste or a caste lower than the brahmins?
No, I am not from the Middle Caste. I am from the Lower caste. Fishermen folk.
It is evil, and I am only stating it to relate myself to the problem. I dont think I am lowering any figgin arsehole in this world. The COPS
To be honest there is quite lot of reverse castism going on now. For example the lower caste gets jobs, education seats etc for free and reserved from the government. Therefore now Higher caste is somehow short changed. I dont agree with Reservation and I dont agree with Castism. Simple!. Nor does the people of India, but people relate culture at times with their caste. If you discriminate anyone by caste, for example. You will land in prison for a neat 22 days.
I've always heard that rats carry deadly diseases and shouldn't be eaten. Maybe that group in India, if they've been eating them for generations, has developed an immunity over time.
Of course, starving people throughout history have always eaten rats to survive. In the event of a famine nearly everyone will take their chances with possibly contaminated rat meat rather than die of starvation.
Here in the southern Arizona desert there is a species of ground squirrel, which are seen everywhere. When I first moved here I wondered if they were edible (I'm from Missouri originally, and in Missouri we eat almost anything we can catch, including squirrel) but was warned against it. Ground squirrels are vermin and apparently carry diseases just like rats do, including bubonic plague.
black mamba
08-14-2008, 03:01 PM
i thought there were 4-5 levels of caste system in india / hinduism:
the priests, the warriors, the traders and the untouchables. never heard of the fishermen. where do these fit in? and that doesnt make you the lowest caste does it? they are the ones in greatest numbers and the ones who are the poorest and facing starvation.
i thought there were 4-5 levels of caste system in india / hinduism:
the priests, the warriors, the traders and the untouchables. never heard of the fishermen. where do these fit in? and that doesnt make you the lowest caste does it? they are the ones in greatest numbers and the ones who are the poorest and facing starvation.
I would have come under untouchables and traders!! lol. 4-5 levels, There are 100's.
Sub-caste and its way more complicated than you fathom. Actually I will not be able to explain it to you in such a way, I suggest you do a little bit of reading up. The power today is with the Middle Caste, The upper caste have no power basically, same goes for the lower caste,If you are talking about % of people in positions of power.
There are 600 million poor people in India, and they contain people from all sections of life. Muslim, Hindu's, lower caste, higher caste, middle caste. India is not uniform, what you see in the South is, not the same in the North etc etc. I run quite successful business here, and I have people from all sections working under me, if that is not empowerment I dont know what is. That said, there are castist problems, there is still the societal hangover of it. But, I repeat IT IS NOT AN INSTITUTION! is taken very seriously by the Indian Government.
wildcat
08-14-2008, 03:12 PM
I would have come under untouchables and traders!! lol. 4-5 levels, There are 100's.
so if you don't like somebody, you wipe out the Idiots guide to cast, and find one for them, LOL, you need a guide book to keep track of them.
rajkhalsa
08-14-2008, 03:20 PM
How about sh*t canning your retarded caste system?
How about sh*canning racism in America.
Oh wait, it is pretty much died out, except for the rural backwards parts.
*shocked* oh wait, just like India.
:cantbeli:
Cedan
08-14-2008, 03:24 PM
Last time I read about people eating rats it was from Africa, Zimbabwe. Didn't know that India was doing so bad.. :(
Last time I read about people eating rats it was from Africa, Zimbabwe. Didn't know that India was doing so bad.. :(
It not, It is some retard coming with a his own ideas!!! I thought we all had retarded politicans and pencil pushers!!!!!! And PS: It is the BBC, its liberal nutjobs, Oh India is taking away its farm lands for Industries!!!
California Joe
08-14-2008, 03:48 PM
How about sh*canning racism in America.
Oh wait, it is pretty much died out, except for the rural backwards parts.
*shocked* oh wait, just like India.
:cantbeli:
That's good to know, douchebag. Hard to tell when government officials refer to it in published articles. Nexy time a governnment official over here talks about those "lazy blacks" and how they should combat poverty by eating o'possums I'll be sure and save it for you.
Ordie
08-14-2008, 04:02 PM
We got rid of our caste system by pretending, acting and spending to be middle class.
Government social engineering as in the case with a one child policy does not work. What works is education on the notion that fewer kids equates to a better standard of living.
Unfortuinately much of India is held back by its traditions and norms. More specifically the dowry system that keeps many poor families in financial difficulties. The laws and policies against these practices are in place, but enforcement and prosecution against centuries old norms are difficult. But if the Indian Republic was able to get rid of the century's old local aristocracy, then anything is possible.
The good news is that the externalities of the liberal economic policies is mitigating much of the caste and other traditional social obligations. So we might see a transformation of India into a single caste of "Middle Class".
From what I've read, a low caste woman is the Chief Minister of Uttar Praddesh, the most populated state now considered as a potential Prime Minister.
I dread the day she becomes the Prime Minister, Not somebody I want to project as my Prime Minister, Uneducated to the boot and corrupt. Though I would concede one thing, the people who might term as enemies : The Terrorist is in for a real rough weather if she ever gets elected.
I am more concerned about Indians getting real aggressive. They are not ready to take it just lying, maybe a good thing in the long term. But with protected Muslims side, I wonder how that is going to pan out.
That's good to know, douchebag. Hard to tell when government officials refer to it in published articles. Nexy time a governnment official over here talks about those "lazy blacks" and how they should combat poverty by eating o'possums I'll be sure and save it for you.
He is beaurcrat how provided his view by saying people have eaten rats for years, He DIDNT, I repeat DIDNT say anything about caste!
It is our own colourful BBC which came up with 'oh the rats were eaten by lower caste people', Oh the poor black naked Indians, so uncivilized and caste system yada and blah.
California Joe
08-14-2008, 04:24 PM
Why don't you run for public office Adux, you seem to have your sh*t together, and you sound like you care about what happens to your country.
Bombtrack
08-14-2008, 04:25 PM
Indian poor urged to eat Rats to fight food crisis
A modest proposal.
Ordie
08-14-2008, 04:29 PM
Why don't you run for public office Adux, you seem to have your sh*t together, and you sound like you care about what happens to your country.
X2
That's what I told him a while back too.
Jimski
08-14-2008, 04:32 PM
rat meat is not only a delicacy but a protein-enriched food, widely popular in Thailand and France.
Not in France. Frogs and snails yes, rats, no.
Why don't you run for public office Adux, you seem to have your sh*t together, and you sound like you care about what happens to your country.
Indian Politics is too murky for me. I care about my country quite deeply.
Must be the blood, My father was a Lawyer, Journalist and Politican (a member of the Legislative Assembly of Kerala, and also the All Kerala President of Workers Union(not the commie one) of the Congress Party. India has the paralimentary form of Governance, now that is bitch in a diverse country as this one. Nehru and his socialist nutty ideas. We should have followed the American Pattern here, I am back in India, contributing in the public sphere through various programs in my own little ways
Ordie
08-14-2008, 05:35 PM
Indian Politics is too murky for me. I care about my country quite deeply.
Must be the blood, My father was a Lawyer, Journalist and Politican (a member of the Legislative Assembly of Kerala, and also the All Kerala President of Workers Union(not the commie one) of the Congress Party.
Then start a political/policymaking think tank or consultancy.
We had a group of Indian Civil Engineers come over here to look at one of our public works projects. They were not interested at the project itself, but more so on the decision making and implementation process.
They were amazed that California State government was able to replace a fallen highway overpass within 25 days through a transparent bidding process with cash rewards.
We gave them internet links to our public meetings including minutes and presentations and they were shocked at the transparency of it all.
Then start a political/policymaking think tank or consultancy.
That wouldnt be a bad idea:).
We had a group of Indian Civil Engineers come over here to look at one of our public works projects. They were not interested at the project itself, but more so on the decision making and implementation process.
They were amazed that California State government was able to replace a fallen highway overpass within 25 days through a transparent bidding process with cash rewards.
We gave them internet links to our public meetings including minutes and presentations and they were shocked at the transparency of it all
The less said about the Great Indian Red Tape, the better. Hopefully 'THEM LOT' learned something, and implemented it here. I am greatly involved in the Educational Sector.
California Joe
08-14-2008, 07:04 PM
Well good luck to you.
Salman
08-14-2008, 08:25 PM
Adux could you give us some practical information about how the caste system works? I mean is the caste system based on skin coulour or on money?
How would you feel the effect of the caste system if you travel to the countryside? Would the "higher caste" members show you hostility or just aviod you? Would you be stopped from entering privately owned buissneses?
Does the caste system only affect hindus in India or the entire population? And last, how does foreigners from different countries get treated in India?
That was alot of questions I hope yiu have the patience to answer some, thanks!
Ordie
08-14-2008, 09:00 PM
Adux could you give us some practical information about how the caste system works? I mean is the caste system based on skin coulour or on money?
How would you feel the effect of the caste system if you travel to the countryside? Would the "higher caste" members show you hostility or just aviod you? Would you be stopped from entering privately owned buissneses?
Does the caste system only affect hindus in India or the entire population? And last, how does foreigners from different countries get treated in India?
That was alot of questions I hope yiu have the patience to answer some, thanks!
Go rent "Gosford Park" or read any of Jane Austin's books. The British Class system is akin to the Caste system. That's partly the reason why the British were effective in governing India.
wigon
08-14-2008, 09:59 PM
Yeah keep blaming whitey on everything. lol!
By the way, yeah the French don't eat rats...the big thing in France now is eating grey squirrels that are overwhelming the indigenous population of red squirrels.
Patriotic and yummy! They're basically tree rats so I guess rats would be good...don't know about how healthy it would be though eating rats from some garbage dump or that live in the sewers. That can't be healthy.
Wigon
wildcat
08-14-2008, 10:04 PM
Yeah keep blaming whitey on everything. lol!
By the way, yeah the French don't eat rats...the big thing in France now is eating grey squirrels that are overwhelming the indigenous population of red squirrels.
Patriotic and yummy! They're basically tree rats so I guess rats would be good...don't know about how healthy it would be though eating rats from some garbage dump or that live in the sewers. That can't be healthy.
Wigon
They eat Squirrel in the US too, but it just red neck hunters mainly.
wigon
08-14-2008, 10:26 PM
They eat Squirrel in the US too, but it just red neck hunters mainly.
Yeah my Dad used to eat squirrel when he was a kid up in Detroit Michigan so apparently yankees up north eat them too. Down south here its mostly possum that the red necks east along with deer of coarse and sometimes jack rabbit as well. I haven't heard of anyone eating racoon. But I hear possum is actually pretty good.
All in all though I think I would eat a rat if I knew where it came from. Like a field rat in some rural area would probably be fairly healthy and good eating.
Wigon
Good God...:| What a headline already.
They eat Squirrel in the US too, but it just red neck hunters mainly.
Hey, I'm an American, and I've eaten squirrel, it was delicious! Tasted like chicken. And I'm no redneck. I hate country music, I don't wear Wranglers, a Stetson or cowboy boots, dip snuff, or watch NASCAR. I've eaten frog legs, too. They were also delicious. And I'm not French.
VAMAN
08-14-2008, 11:50 PM
Bihar to uplift Musahar community by commercialising rat meat
Rat meat may soon be available in hotels as a delicacy. Rat farming, akin to rearing poultry, would be given to the poor Musahar community of Bihar as a means for their socio-economic upliftment as well as promote a new kind of food item in urban pockets.
Patna, Bihar, India, 2008-08-11 09:45:03
Rat meat may soon be available in hotels as a delicacy. Rat farming, akin to rearing poultry, would be given to the poor Musahar community of Bihar as a means for their socio-economic upliftment as well as promote a new kind of food item in urban pockets.
The Musahars, known as the traditional rat eating community and still regarded as 'untouchables', usually hunt rats in the paddy fields.
'The government has decided to engage the Musahars in commercialisation of rat meat for their overall development,' Vijay Prakash, principal secretary in the social welfare department, told IANS.
'We will encourage and help the Musahars to organize rat farms in order to commercialise rat meat' he said.
The Musahars, estimated to number 2.3 million, are among the most deprived and marginalised section of the society in Bihar. They are yet to taste the fruits of development. They are widely known as rat eaters either out of choice or as compulsion to fight hunger.
Engaging Musahars in commercialisation of rat meat would help create a regular source of income for them. 'It will help empower them and change their poor living conditions if the venture is properly designed and clicks,' said Prakash.
Prakash maintains rat meat has the 'potential' to become a popular food. According to dieticians, rat meat is rich in protein and tastier than chicken.
Prakash said when Musahars rear rats in farms, on the lines of chicken and fish farming, the age-old image of catching rats being a wild activity will change.
Eating rat meat is considered a stigma in urban pockets and confined to the poorer sections of society, said Prakash. 'However, I discovered during a fact-finding mission about rat meat that it is a popular food item in the Mokama riverine areas and roadside hotels in Danapur in Patna district. It is called 'patal-bageri' and its demand is high,' he said.
Many people at toddy shops demand rat meat for its rare taste with spices.
The state government plans to set up stalls in rural fairs across the state, followed by rat meat centres in urban areas.
Prakash hinted that his department would approach government and private agencies in and outside the country to speed up commercialisation of rat meat.
'We'd like to have a network with other experts to boost the rat meat business,' he said.
Dalits constitute nearly 15 percent of Bihar's population of 83 million. The poorest Dalits were declared Maha Dalits in Bihar. A government commission has identified 18 of the 22 Dalit sub castes, including Musahar, Bhuiyan, Dom, and Nat as Maha Dalits. They constitute 31 percent of the Dalit population in the state.
The commission has not included four Dalit castes - Paswan, Pasi, Dhobi and Chamar - in the Maha Dalit category. These four constitute 69 percent of the Dalit population in the state.
A few months ago Nitish Kumar announced a special package of Rs.3 billion ($76 million) for the socio-economic development of the poorest among Dalits.
He set up a commission in August last year for the welfare of certain Dalit castes that are socially and educationally more backward than others.
Bihar is the first state to constitute a commission to study the status of the neglected sub-castes among Dalits and suggest ways to uplift them.
The commission in its first interim report to the government a few months ago painted a bleak picture of the Dalit sub-castes. The report said there were no high school teachers or senior officials from these castes in the state despite reservations in government jobs for them.
- By Imran Khan
http://www.indiaprwire.com/businessnews/20080811/32658.htm
rajkhalsa
08-15-2008, 12:43 AM
How about sh*t canning your retarded caste system?
How about sh*canning racism in America.
Oh wait, it is pretty much died out, except for the rural backwards parts.
*shocked* oh wait, just like India.
:cantbeli:
That's good to know, douchebag. Hard to tell when government officials refer to it in published articles. Nexy time a governnment official over here talks about those "lazy blacks" and how they should combat poverty by eating o'possums I'll be sure and save it for you.lol good answer.
:cantbeli:
Dude, talking sh*t over the internet or calling people names doesn't lend weight to stupid comments, it only makes you look like an arrogant assh*le.
The thing is, your posts generally indicate that you aren't a complete dumbass, but yet I've noticed in threads about India you really let fly with the ignorance and straw men. Wonder what's the reason for all your heartburn, or should I term it some kind of intellectual delhi belly? Some call center take your job? Some Indian hottie spurn your awkward advances?
Did I say caste doesn't exist? Did I say that it's not a problem? I'm a Sikh, part of a religious tradition that specifically forbids caste, yet my ancestral community is considered a 'low caste' community within the Sikh or Punjabi tradition. In India -- and throughout the Subcontinent -- the concept of caste crosses all lines, Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, Christian and Buddhist.
What people don't realize about 'caste' is that it is found everywhere in the world. Yet thanks to the British and Mughals before them its existence in India allows for a handly little word, 'caste', that to the ignorant somehow makes the very human problem seem very India-specific.
This world wide problem -- an ignorant loathing of 'the other' -- is manifest in many different ways throughout the world. In the far more racially homogenous East Asia and Europe, its 'racism'. In Africa, its 'tribalism'. In South America, its a very more acute sense of racialism.
Because India is so inherently diverse, quite frankly everyone looks different to each other. Different languages, different cultures, different colors, different features, different races. So while for millenia the concept of racism, that is prejudice against people of another race/color, had existed in Europe, racial prejudice has never existed in India.
The acknowlagement of different 'races' has never been a part of Indian culture. Nor even different ethnicity-racism ("ethnicism"?) People accepted as simply given that the next guy was completely different than him. What instead evolved over the years is a cross-racial, cross-ethnicity, cross-linguistic, cross-color, cross-peoplegroup form of social stratification that haters who want to hate do to hate.
That is the concept of caste. The concept that while everyone is a different color/race/ethnicity/features/culture/religion/etc. to each other, that within everyone's own specific tiny community, be they Punjabi farmers, or Kokani fisherman, or Rajput warriors, or Bengali teachers or Tamil priests, etc. -- that within each minute ethnic group there exists a socioeconomic class system that is as rigid as it was in Europe until the industrial era.
While it took till the 1960s and 70s for the richest, most powerful, most educated, most forward looking nation in the world to eradicate racism off its books and out of mainstream culture, how the flying f*ck do you expect it to suddenly disappear overnight in a country 5x as populous, 20x as ancient, 1000x as diverse who until recently had suffered from a crippling poverty caused by 300 years of European colonialsim and 500 years of Islamic colonialism before that?
So ignorant statements about 'huh huh duuuhh how about you natives go sh*tcan caste duhh yup' is a f*cking stupid thing to say. Again, how about my fellow Americans go ahead and s*itcan racism. I'm a f*cking Sikh. A _SIKH_ for Gods sakes, born and raised here and currently serving in our military to defend our nation. You have no fricking idea how many instances of virulent racism I personally have faced here, where racism is supposedly nonexistant, by people who think I'm some fundamentalist Muslim terrorist jehadi f*ck.
Yeah. Me, a SIKH of all people, a community that probably has by far suffered the biggest brunt of radical Islamic expansionism, persecution and bloody repression in the last 500 years. That's like freaking calling a Jew a nazi!
That's good to know, douchebag. Hard to tell when government officials refer to it in published articles. Nexy time a governnment official over here talks about those "lazy blacks" and how they should combat poverty by eating o'possums I'll be sure and save it for you.
Seriously? Seriously?? :cantbeli:
Good lord, you suffer from an amazing case of bullsh*t. Don't lie to yourself and to me and pretend that 'govenment officials don't talk about race in America', or that race doesn't play a factor in American politics. :bash: So many people, on all sides, races and political hues, are all about the platform of race politics, and the issues racial discrimination, and racial empowerment, for and against.
You hear plenty of friggin politicians talking about race, some politicicans, especially at local levels be they white, black or hispanic, almost exclusively deal with racial issues. Its the same way in Europe. Christ, I'm from Illinois and have lived in Chicago and the rural south of the state and I've personally heard local politicians railing against the nazi whitey, or the violent negro with my own ears. While race-based politics isn't quite as bad as caste-based politics in India, there is far, far more vitriol spewed here than there.
But does that mean America is racist? Does that mean Americans are racist? Of course not. A majority of people are generally pretty open minded about other people, and that continues to grow with each succeding generation. America, like India, is one of the few places in the world where the legacy of racism/casteism/tribalism/hating-the-other-ism is fading. Why is it that you are so stunningly unable to see the same in India?
India has had Low Caste, 'Untouchable' and Sikh Prime Ministers; Muslim, Sikh, Low Caste and Untouchable Presidents, the largest regional party is low caste party, etc, etc, etc. Yet even in our America we still have yet to elect a non-white, non-Christian, upper class, rich president. And although now that has the very distinct possiblility of changing, do you seriously think an Obama could have been potentially been elected for president even 10 years ago?
After Gandhi's satyagarah movement and Dr. Ambadekar's movements (the father of the Indian constitution, that's like having Martin Luther King Jr. having a guiding hand in writing ours), etc. casteism due to progressing social enlightenment as well as incredible and needed government affirmative action policies, is dying in India, especially in the cities. Why the cities? Because its there that people are the most educated, and the most economically emancipated. As economic growth booms in India, people once poor can now afford to send their children to school. Learning, knowlage, and subsequent openmindedness breaks down ignorance and is breaking incredible social barriers in India.
The key to all this is economic development. That creates social development, and destroys classist/casteist prejudices and supersitions of the historic and uneducated. America is a rich country and a democracy. This has caused the racism that afflictied us to be nearly extinct. India is a poor country and a democracy, but in all but some rural areas of India, it is pretty much extinct. And in both countries, each future generation sees less and less of it.
And regarding this story in particular, and your apparent complete ineptitude in its comprehension, this politicican isn't talking about 'lazy lowcastes' and how they should eat roadkill, moron, he's talking about re-popularizing the tradition of eating mice in a particular community who has HISTORICALLY EATEN MICE in order to kill two birds (rats?) with one stone.
Indians are damn picky eaters, and while most people are not exclusively vegitarian, they usually eat only chicken, pig and in the case of Muslims goat meat instead of pig. People in India do not have the cultural tradition of eating beef, just like people in America by and far would rather eat dogsh*t than eat a puppy or a horse. In Europe and the middle east, people eat things that both Indians and American's would find repulsive, and in east Asia, people eat a variety of other meat that others would find culturally offensive.
However, because India is so diverse, there are certain tribal groups in India whose people have been traditonally hunter-gatherers, like in many tribal groups in Bihar. Since the 18th century, vegetarianism, or at least limiting meat intake to white meat for the Hindus, or goat meat for Muslim communities have come into vogue and affected these communities, due to influence by the majority, non tribal communities.
What this politician is proposing is to get rid of 'prejudice' of some modern cultural prohibitions against eating certain types of food -- in this case rats or mice -- and promoting a reversion of an economcially depressed people to their own particular historic cultural norms -- allowing for better nutrition for them and at the same time eliminating a rodent problem, allowing them a better chance at economic growth.
So please try not to be an ass and maybe you'll actually learn something, old timer. Or maybe that the generation that inhabits this board, just like what happened in generations before it and will continue to happen to generations after, is simply more culturally aware and understanding of the world and people around them than your generation.
-Raj
PS - I hope I've addressed the questions by some other members in the thread.
And BTW, I've actually hunted and eaten squirrel before, when I went hunting with my friends in the UP of Michigan, as well as deer in Wisconsin. Both of those animals are simply things you do not eat in India. It's as werid and disgusting to them as me saying 'hey guys I eat monkey brains and snakes"* would be to most Americans.
*Indy Jones refernece. We don't actually eat those. But you wouldn't believe the questions I had to put up with as a kid when that damn movie came out :lol:
rajkhalsa
08-15-2008, 01:00 AM
BTW compare the way the BBC spun this entire news story in the article on the first page
"OMG eevil Indian governemnt demanding untouchables eat rats!!!11"
versus the far more reasonable article about the story posted by vaman right above my post
I'm guessing the BBC editor suffers from the same type of cognitive dissonance toward India as trader joe does above.
sikh_warrior
08-15-2008, 02:23 AM
guys guys listen to this.....
who suddenly finds India the country to be with....yanks.
who is licking Indian ball$ these days......yanks.
who is learning more about India these days.........yanks.
who want the Exclusive nuke deal with India........yanks.
opps sorry if i offended any......yankee.
anyone for Pork sausages and beer??
thanks for the answers....Adux, Raj, Vaman and all the Indians on this forum.
hey jana i know you dont eat pork, so dont think im offering you.
rajkhalsa
08-15-2008, 02:47 AM
hey buddy... I may be of Indian origin, but I'm a 'yank' too. :slap:
I can just as very easily say say the same things about India. What's happening is a convergence of interests of two natural allies. Arrogant comments by some both sides notwithstanding.
They say that the spats between two siblings can be the most vitriolic. I guess it goes for geopolitical or idealism allies as well.
wigon
08-15-2008, 02:49 AM
lol good answer.
:cantbeli:
Dude, talking sh*t over the internet or calling people names doesn't lend weight to stupid comments, it only makes you look like an arrogant assh*le.
The thing is, your posts generally indicate that you aren't a complete dumbass, but yet I've noticed in threads about India you really let fly with the ignorance and straw men. Wonder what's the reason for all your heartburn, or should I term it some kind of intellectual delhi belly? Some call center take your job? Some Indian hottie spurn your awkward advances?
Actually yeah my job moved to India.
What people don't realize about 'caste' is that it is found everywhere in the world. Yet thanks to the British and Mughals before them its existence in India allows for a handly little word, 'caste', that to the ignorant somehow makes the very human problem seem very India-specific.
Yeah blame it on the Muslims and the White Man!
This world wide problem -- an ignorant loathing of 'the other' -- is manifest in many different ways throughout the world. In the far more racially homogenous East Asia and Europe, its 'racism'. In Africa, its 'tribalism'. In South America, its a very more acute sense of racialism.
It's all racism. Racism is just another word for "Fear of the Other" in which we dehumanize "the other" to feel superior and "special".
Because India is so inherently diverse, quite frankly everyone looks different to each other. Different languages, different cultures, different colors, different features, different races. So while for millenia the concept of racism, that is prejudice against people of another race/color, had existed in Europe, racial prejudice has never existed in India.
Speaking of feeling special...GIMME A BREAK!! Are you serious? Every country suffers from racism of some type. I know Sikhs who HATE INDIANS with a passion and who get extremely angry if you dare call them an Indian. They tell me, I AM PUNJABI! DO NOT DARE CALL ME INDIAN!"
Hmm....sounds like racism to me. But maybe that's just for rednecks and Muslims who hate blacks and Jews eh?
The acknowlagement of different 'races' has never been a part of Indian culture. Nor even different ethnicity-racism ("ethnicism"?) People accepted as simply given that the next guy was completely different than him. What instead evolved over the years is a cross-racial, cross-ethnicity, cross-linguistic, cross-color, cross-peoplegroup form of social stratification that haters who want to hate do to hate.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...its a duck. You can call it what you will, but ya guys got racism as well but instead of skin color or ethnicity, its religion that is the main method of categorizing the other.
That is the concept of caste. The concept that while everyone is a different color/race/ethnicity/features/culture/religion/etc. to each other, that within everyone's own specific tiny community, be they Punjabi farmers, or Kokani fisherman, or Rajput warriors, or Bengali teachers or Tamil priests, etc. -- that within each minute ethnic group there exists a socioeconomic class system that is as rigid as it was in Europe until the industrial era.
We still have classicm in the West. We just try to pretend that it doesn't exist and our media refuses to talk about the growing gap between the poor and the middle class here in America.
While it took till the 1960s and 70s for the richest, most powerful, most educated, most forward looking nation in the world to eradicate racism off its books and out of mainstream culture, how the flying f*ck do you expect it to suddenly disappear overnight in a country 5x as populous, 20x as ancient, 1000x as diverse who until recently had suffered from a crippling poverty caused by 300 years of European colonialsim and 500 years of Islamic colonialism before that?
Wait, did you just say that racism never existed in India?
In the past ethnic cleansing seemed to work fairly well.
So ignorant statements about 'huh huh duuuhh how about you natives go sh*tcan caste duhh yup' is a f*cking stupid thing to say. Again, how about my fellow Americans go ahead and s*itcan racism. I'm a f*cking Sikh. A _SIKH_ for Gods sakes, born and raised here and currently serving in our military to defend our nation. You have no fricking idea how many instances of virulent racism I personally have faced here, where racism is supposedly nonexistant, by people who think I'm some fundamentalist Muslim terrorist jehadi f*ck.
Here in America? That's because if you have a turban on your head you are automatically Muslim. Come on...if you live here then you know how stupid the general population is here in America when it comes to other countries and cultures. White America only recently discovered "The Taco" now that Mexican resteraunts are popping up all over America.
Yeah. Me, a SIKH of all people, a community that probably has by far suffered the biggest brunt of radical Islamic expansionism, persecution and bloody repression in the last 500 years. That's like freaking calling a Jew a nazi!
Someone called you a Nazi? The repression stuff from Muslims might have to do with the Islamic belief that Sikhs perverted the Islamic religion and blended it with Hinduism. They do indeed go insane over such things. Same reason why the Bahai are persecuted in Iran.
Seriously? Seriously?? :cantbeli:
Good lord, you suffer from an amazing case of bullsh*t. Don't lie to yourself and to me and pretend that 'govenment officials don't talk about race in America', or that race doesn't play a factor in American politics.
Hey white man's sh*t don't stink. How dare you accuse the white man of sh*t stinking!!!
:bash: So many people, on all sides, races and political hues, are all about the platform of race politics, and the issues racial discrimination, and racial empowerment, for and against.
Its called "controlling power". We all form groups at a certain population level and seek advantages for our "group" over other groups who have different distinguishing features (culturally, racially, politically, religiously, or ideologically).
You hear plenty of friggin politicians talking about race, some politicicans, especially at local levels be they white, black or hispanic, almost exclusively deal with racial issues. Its the same way in Europe. Christ, I'm from Illinois and have lived in Chicago and the rural south of the state and I've personally heard local politicians railing against the nazi whitey, or the violent negro with my own ears. While race-based politics isn't quite as bad as caste-based politics in India, there is far, far more vitriol spewed here than there.
No doubt. What if your a Pakistani in India?
But does that mean America is racist? Does that mean Americans are racist? Of course not. A majority of people are generally pretty open minded about other people, and that continues to grow with each succeding generation. America, like India, is one of the few places in the world where the legacy of racism/casteism/tribalism/hating-the-other-ism is fading. Why is it that you are so stunningly unable to see the same in India?
Because India is BROWN and people in India look way too much like Arabs for the comfort of White America.
India has had Low Caste, 'Untouchable' and Sikh Prime Ministers; Muslim, Sikh, Low Caste and Untouchable Presidents, the largest regional party is low caste party, etc, etc, etc. Yet even in our America we still have yet to elect a non-white, non-Christian, upper class, rich president. And although now that has the very distinct possiblility of changing, do you seriously think an Obama could have been potentially been elected for president even 10 years ago?
No. If he was, he'd be assassinated in short order. The powers of industry and politics are not ready for a black man in power. Minorities are only supposed to have token positions of political power. Otherwise Mexican-Americans might take back Tejas, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, and California.
After Gandhi's satyagarah movement and Dr. Ambadekar's movements (the father of the Indian constitution, that's like having Martin Luther King Jr. having a guiding hand in writing ours), etc. casteism due to progressing social enlightenment as well as incredible and needed government affirmative action policies, is dying in India, especially in the cities. Why the cities? Because its there that people are the most educated, and the most economically emancipated. As economic growth booms in India, people once poor can now afford to send their children to school. Learning, knowlage, and subsequent openmindedness breaks down ignorance and is breaking incredible social barriers in India.
I've talked to some Indians who hate Ghandi with a passion and consider him one of the worst traitors in India's history.
The key to all this is economic development. That creates social development, and destroys classist/casteist prejudices and supersitions of the historic and uneducated. America is a rich country and a democracy. This has caused the racism that afflictied us to be nearly extinct. India is a poor country and a democracy, but in all but some rural areas of India, it is pretty much extinct. And in both countries, each future generation sees less and less of it.
Until we have a war with your ethnic group or one that looks like it. Hence the reason that the first person killed after 9/11 in a hate crime against Muslims.... was a Sikh mistaken for a Muslim.
Yeah.... humanity has a loooooong way to go.
Anyways, I think the idea of eating rats is awesome! I hope it catches on here in the U.S. as the factory farming crap we eat now is killing our country.
Wigon
sikh_warrior
08-15-2008, 02:50 AM
Im an indian............thats it!
anyone for PORK sausages and Budlight?
sikh_warrior
08-15-2008, 02:54 AM
interests of two natural allies.[/B] Arrogant comments by some both sides notwithstanding.
They say that the spats between two siblings can be the most vitriolic. I guess it goes for geopolitical or idealism allies as well.
where was this interest of two natural allies in 70s, 80s, 90s when yanks were busy cuddling pakistan and giving royal ignore to India?
sausages and beer, anyone?
rajkhalsa
08-15-2008, 03:38 AM
Wigon,
Sup
Yeah blame it on the Muslims and the White Man!
I'm not blaming caste on Muslims and the 'white man', I'm blaming the spread of casteism as an institution on, not the Muslims in general, but the Moghul dynasty in particular. The Moghuls played a huge role in putting Brahmins (regardless whether they were Hindu or Muslim "Brahmin" caste) -- i.e. the head of the traditional 'social' totem poll -- as landlords and fiefs, therefore making them the head of the economic totem poll as well. Especially in modern caste-strife ridden areas like rural Bihar state, thanks to the Moghul kingdoms who had introduced the concept of fiefdoms to India, Brahmin and 'Brahmin' Muslims ruled their land with an iron fist, exacrabating casteism to a major economic class issue. This is also exactly why most of Pakistan still runs as, and suffers from fiefdomism.
The British took this one step further. In allowing local kings to rule their kingdoms under the British 'protectorate', they encouraged fiefdom and actively gave lands and political power to the ethnic groups they considered 'loyal'. Even on a macro scale. After the Sepoy Revolution, all of a sudden all the 'loyal' regiments got labelled with the racist 'Martial Race' nomer. And still to this day some ethnocentrists consider themselves inherantly superior. This is very true in the Sikh community.
The combination of 'social haves' + 'economic haves' versus the have-nots is a very, very, very tough nut to crack, especially when the haves have got all the power, money and education. Only economic development which empowers and educates the have-nots can break this vicious cycle of institutional socio-economic discrimination.
This is exactly why the most economically backwards parts of India where the boom hasn't really reached (Bihar and Uttar Pradesh states in particular) who also have this legacy of caste-fiefdomism still are trying to crack those nuts and still suffer strife today, manifest now in naxalitism.
The only way to fix the problem is to encourage investment in these areas, but because these areas are the most isolated (think jungle), and due to India's crippling incompetence at upgrading infrastructure, these will be the last places to feel the effects of the Indian economic elephant.
That is what I mean. Please don't misunderstand.
It's all racism. Racism is just another word for "Fear of the Other" in which we dehumanize "the other" to feel superior and "special". I understand what you mean by "racism" but the reason I defined ethocentrism, casteism, etc. seperately is to try to explain the notion that casteism is actually color blind. A 'Brahmin' from Punjab is of Aryan/Hun/Kushan/etc. racial extraction while a 'Brahmin' from Assam is of Tibetan/Mon-Khmer racial extraction, and a 'Brahmin' from Tamil Nadu is of Dravidian racial extraction. They all have different cultures, different religious traditions, look completely different, and except for some mixing up in their genetic breakdown, are completely different people.
Your run of the mill "racist" (using your definition) Indian isn't going to call someone a racial epitath, but maybe an ethnic or casteist one. This is what I mean.
I agree, they are all forms of ignorance and hate, but the way the hate is played out is distinct, and that is why "caste" has its own word. Not because hatered is an Indian problem, but because Indian "racism" doesn't deal with race, but with historic social status.
peaking of feeling special...GIMME A BREAK!! Are you serious? Every country suffers from racism of some type. I know Sikhs who HATE INDIANS with a passion and who get extremely angry if you dare call them an Indian. They tell me, I AM PUNJABI! DO NOT DARE CALL ME INDIAN!"
Hmm....sounds like racism to me. But maybe that's just for rednecks and Muslims who hate blacks and Jews eh?
You are using "racism" in its colloquial usage, i.e. general "hatred for the other". I am using racism as a specific connotation, i.e. hatred for another skin color/race.
This whole 'Punjabi' thing is a linguistic/ethnic form of exclusivism that exists with all people groups in the world. It's another form of hatred, but it is not caste-based. I.e. a Punjabi ethnocentrist can be from a 'high caste' but still hate an 'high caste' ethnic Tamil. That's just old fashioned ethnocentirsm, but it is quite different from the caste dynamic.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...its a duck. You can call it what you will, but ya guys got racism as well but instead of skin color or ethnicity, its religion that is the main method of categorizing the other.
I agree, the biggest 'powder keg' of hatred in India is not intra-religious/ethnic (i.e. caste or ethnicity hatred), but is religious hatred. Assh*le fundamentalists of all shades are there in India, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian and yes, even Buddhist.
Someone called you a Nazi? The repression stuff from Muslims might have to do with the Islamic belief that Sikhs perverted the Islamic religion and blended it with Hinduism. They do indeed go insane over such things. Same reason why the Bahai are persecuted in Iran.For the point of record, no one called me a nazi. What I meant was some ignorant assh*le calling a Sikh an Islamist is as stupid as calling a Jewish person a nazi. You're directing hatred of an oppressor against their most oppresed group.
One thing I have to clear up for you though, Sikhism is hardly an 'offshoot' of Islam :lol: Sikhism is a specific religion tradition in the greater Indic religion of Dharma (which includes our Hindu, Buddhist and Jain cousins.) Like other Dharmic traditions, we believe that all religions have truth to them. This is why our holy book, Guru Granth Sahib, and our Gurus made the point of teaching from both Islamic and Hindu traditions -- a very poigniant statement in then religious strife-ridden Punjab. But it is worth noting that the the Islamic-origined teachings in the Guru Granth Sahib came from Islamic traditions that also held this universal Dharmic belief that all religions are brothers, beautifully espoused for example by the teachings of Islamic poet-saint Kabir, who himself blended the Hindu and Muslim traditions. (Worth noting is that it is this tolerant, forward-thinking version of Islam that is practiced in most parts of India, which is diametrically opposite to the forms of Islam practiced in Pakistan -- more on this later.)
Anyway, the history of Islamic oppression of Sikhs in India is huge and storied topic in and of itself, and we can create another thread on the subject if you like, but the sitcom version is the reason Sikhism was 'militarized', i.e. the Khalsa was formed was because of the horrible atrocities that the Islamist (note: different than juts Muslim) kings committed against Sikhs and Hindus and Jains in the Punjab. Sikhs were formed as a fighting unit to defend the right of religious freedom of all kinds, Sikh, Hindu and Muslim against a virulent radical form of Islam. Punjab was the borderline in a civilization war, and the Sikh Khalsa were its front line soldiers. (This is still going on, -- shades of modern day Islamist Pakistan/terrorists v. Indian secularism, anyone?)
It is this legacy of soldiering and the sufferings of our people which is why the concept of a noble warrior fighting for everyone's freedom -- a "Soldier-Saint" -- is so central to Sikh culture today, and why the military/police profession is seen as a very honorable one, and why so many Sikhs serve in the Indian military, and why so many of the Sikh diaspora, despite being such a small community in most places, are so prominent in military or police service. It's similar to the Knight's Templar, if the Templar had fought for the religious freedom of everyone, rather than the freedom for only certain Christians.
No doubt. What if your a Pakistani in India?
Being a Pakistani in India, what does that mean? Being a Pakistani in India is being a foreign national in India.
...and not just any foreign national, but being from a hostile foreign power that attempted to invade Indian land 4 times in the last 50 years. It's like being a Soviet citizen in America in the 60s. There's going to be some natoinalistic hatred, but I'd hardly call it 'racist' (necessarily.)
There's no such thing as Pakistnai ethnicity, just like there is no real Indian ethnicity either. Half of Pakistan is Punjabi, just like me. But they have a culture and mindset that is completely alien to me. There are also a crapton of Sindhis, Balochis and Pashtun who in India as well.
The difference is that the Pakistani nation state is fundamentally opposed to the Indian, and American, way of life. It is a state that not only legally but is BASED ON the repression minority religions and, just as badly, propagates the teachings of another as superior. It is not a secular state.
Any military dictatorship that says 'our religion is supreme' while actively putting down others and trying to expand its borders and liberate land from the 'evil kaffir', is in my view no different than a certain European military dictatorship who said that 'our race is supreme' and actively put down other races while trying to expand their borders and liberate land from the evil 'non-Aryan'
The name "Pakistan" means Paki- or Pure, and Sthan- or Land; i.e. "land of the pure", i.e. "land of the Muslim." You take the religiosupremecist concept of "Paki" out of the "Pakistani" and you're just left with a "-stani", or a countryman, i.e. just another Indian Muslim.
India has more Muslims than all of Pakistan and by and far they are fully integrated into Indian culture and ideals. They are not radicals, they are seculars. In fact, they are the largest block of secular Muslims in the world, and are a shining example of how modern Islam can be open minded and forward thinking. They are an example to all Muslims in the world.
So take the Islamic-supremacy-nationalism out of the Pakistani and you just got another secular Indian, albeit of a Muslim hue.
I know Sikhs who HATE INDIANS with a passion and who get extremely angry if you dare call them an Indian. They tell me, I AM PUNJABI! DO NOT DARE CALL ME INDIAN!"
...
I've talked to some Indians who hate Ghandi with a passion and consider him one of the worst traitors in India's history.
Re: these people, talk to them for any length of time and you'll quickly find them to be COMPLETELY F*CKING NUTS.
These Sikhs and Indians are the Indian version of the Islamist. They are full of hate for "the other", whoever they may be. I've noticed that Sikh extremism (a form of religious extremism and fundamentalism that is just as dangerous as Islamic or Christian fundamentalism) is big in diasporic communtiies in Canada and the UK in particular. Mainly because these racist -- yeah, I'm talking racial hatred -- and religious fanatic jags were run the f*ck out of India by the other 99.999975% of non-rabidly fundamentalist Sikhs.
sikh_warrior,
where was this interest of two natural allies in 70s, 80s, 90s when yanks were busy cuddling pakistan and giving royal ignore to India?
We were doing the same thing in that time India was doing under Nehru, making a deal with the devil for a short term gain while going against our ideals. But don't be so quick to point the figure to America only.
While Nehru pretended to talk about how great democracy and peace was, he lauded Mao's genocide of his own people, applauded the complete lack of democracy in China, and then after signing the panch shila, went on up and personally applied the lube to the Chicoms' d*ck as they facef*cked the Tibetan people... then bent over and happily begged for the PRC to do the same to India.
If India had a stronger leader, a Sardar Patel or anyone else than this effeminate hypocrite, not only would India and America have been inseperable allies, but Tibet would still be independent and India would have had become a developed country 30 years sooner due to American economic largess and cold war expenditure, just like Japan, HK and Taiwan.
It's best not to dwell on the past. People made stupid mistakes on all sides. If you point out America cozied up with the Paks, I can point out that India cozied up with China, and the Soviet Union.
It's the future that holds great promise for both our nations
Cheers,
Raj
rajkhalsa
08-15-2008, 04:19 AM
Actually yeah my job moved to India.
BTW, just want to add, I feel for ya bro. During high school I worked at a call center and made BANK. I'm talking serious freaking chedda when you factor in commi$$ion.
Then in senior year, right when I needed the cash flow the most, the place up and moved to Bangalore. Yeah. I literally got Bangalored. Which sucked especially hard for me. :lol:
oldsoak
08-15-2008, 06:28 AM
I can see a lot of investment in the Hi-tech industries in India, but not so much in the agricultural area - which is area where cash returns are not great. How do Indians see the way forward for lifting the poorest citizens out of the poverty trap ?
I admit to having little idea of health care for impoverished or government initiatives in India.
sikh_warrior
08-15-2008, 08:23 AM
im really impressed by what you write, Raj.
VAMAN
08-15-2008, 09:30 AM
Actually yeah my job moved to India.
Yeah blame it on the Muslims and the White Man!
Yes white man should be the one to blame. Actually 'Caste' is a Portuguese word. When British came to India they used the word 'Caste' in place of original word 'Varna'. Because Caste word suited them more and was more near to their understanding.
Varna system in it's literal sense is nothing like Caste system. It was called Varna Vayavastha which literally means Class System. The society was divided mainly among four classes based on ones work and social standing.
Kshatriya - warriors, royalty.
Brahmin - scholars, teachers, doctors, priests etc.
Vaishya - merchants, traders and artisans.
Shudra - service-providing community.
In modern times this system has become redundant but due to British colonial propaganda for nearly 100 years most people are not really aware of this fact.
Sorry but rest of your post seems like a random rant. So no need to reply to that.
Salman
08-15-2008, 06:21 PM
Go rent "Gosford Park" or read any of Jane Austin's books. The British Class system is akin to the Caste system. That's partly the reason why the British were effective in governing India.
To be honest I wont. I was just looking forward to know how the caste system works pratically in India today. I'm not pointing a finger at anyone, if that is how you understood my post.
wigon
08-15-2008, 06:42 PM
BTW, just want to add, I feel for ya bro. During high school I worked at a call center and made BANK. I'm talking serious freaking chedda when you factor in commi$$ion.
Then in senior year, right when I needed the cash flow the most, the place up and moved to Bangalore. Yeah. I literally got Bangalored. Which sucked especially hard for me. :lol:
Ouch. Yeah it sucks getting bangalored.... in the Army Corp of engineers I used to train on real bangalore torpedoes. lol!
Nah I just wanted to say that I was drinking a bit when I wrote my reply last night so I apologize for sounding a bit harsh (I tried to tone it down the further I wrote). However your answer was quite elequent and answered all of my questions I had brought up so thank you for not going ballistic on me. lol
I really need to study the Sikh religion more. It sounds fascinating. I didn't know it had that focus on unity and tolerance.
I tried studying the Hindu religion once, but it was so deep and multi-layered that I kinda gave up as I don't think I could truly understand without spending many years living in India.
Islam is kinda like that but I've lived in Muslim countries and spend so much time around Muslims that I have a better feel for the spirituality.
I went to one Sikh prayer (I don't know what the correct name is). I guess its the equivalent of church for Christians or Jummah prayer for Muslims. It was really an awesome experience and even though I didn't understand the language, they gave me the lyrics and I sung along as best I could and really enjoyed it. It was at a very wealthy Sikh's house and they fed everyone an amazing lunch of delicious Punjabi foods. They were also very kind to me. I'm not one very converting to any religion, but you've definitely peaked my interest into studying more about the Sikh religion.
Thank you again for your response.
Now we just have to convince McDonald or Kentucky Fried Chicken to offer McRat and Kentucky Fried Rat on their menus.
I'd eat it. Seriously I would. I've already eaten dog and various snakes in Indonesia, so I figure that rat would probably taste better.
Wigon
BTW compare the way the BBC spun this entire news story in the article on the first page
"OMG eevil Indian governemnt demanding untouchables eat rats!!!11"
versus the far more reasonable article about the story posted by vaman right above my post
I'm guessing the BBC editor suffers from the same type of cognitive dissonance toward India as trader joe does above.
BBC is mostly pro-India and seldom let go anything publish against India.
But here is the same news from an Indian Newspaper "The Times of India"
R.at snacks can solve world food price crisis: Official
14 Aug 2008, 0540 hrs IST,AGENCIES
PATNA: Eating ra.ts is the best way for rich and poor people to solve the global crisis of rising food prices, an official said on Wednesday as he unveiled his plan to put rodents on menus.
Regular r.at snacks would translate into fewer rodents eating precious grain stocks - 50 percent of which are lost in the northeastern state of Bihar every year to the animals, said Vijay Prakash, secretary of the state's welfare department.
"This will help in mitigating the global food crisis. We are sure that it will work wonders," Prakash said. "It will save half our grain, and will also reduce villagers' dependence on food stock."
Prakash's plan promotes consumption of r.at meat in homes, street stalls, restaurants and even international five-star hotels. :woot:
He said he was also holding talks with prestigious hotels outside India to encourage them to put r.at meat on their menus, but admitted his scheme had to overcome public prejudice.
"The only issue is how people react to r.at meat, but I think it will not be a problem," he said.
"Some socially deprived people in Bihar have always consumed r.at meat. If they can eat rats, why can't the rest of the people?" he said.
Members of the Mushar community and some other impoverished groups have traditionally eaten ra.ts in India.
"R.at meat will make up nutrition deficiencies among villagers, since ra.ts are a major source of protein," Prakash said.
rat snacks can solve world food price crisis: Official-India-The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/rat_snacks_can_solve_world_food_price_crisis_Official/articleshow/3362835.cms)
rajkhalsa
08-16-2008, 05:13 AM
BBC is mostly pro-India and seldom let go anything publish against India.
If your barely coherant comments in any of your threads isn't already a dead giveaway, this statement alone proves you have a very, shall we say 'unique' view of the world around you.
The times of India is as far left wing as you can get without being commie, hardly a paragon of journalistic integrity, though the article you posted is surprisingly one of the few they publish that doesn't devolve into a rambling rant against anyone who opposes the Indian National Congress party.
And the BBC has a very bad habit of trying to ridicule stories emanating former colonies, India very much included. It may be hard to see through your own personal blinders, but it should be blindingly obvious that the BBC article was full of all sorts of ridiculous innuendos and half-truth statements about the issue. The reporter who filed the story as well as the editors who approved it obviously have a dishonest approach to spreading information.
Kinda like you.
I really wonder why a you, apparently a Pakistani, is so fascinated with creating post after post of news about Indian "rat-eaters" or Indians babies, or poor oppressed Kashmiris, etc..
My humble words of advice to all the budding cyber-jehadi:
Part of being a propagandist is realizing when your motives are as transparent to everyone else as your obvious senility. And knowing your audience. And we on this board f*cking hate propagandists.
:roll:
PS: Kudos for creating this thread. I know it didn't quite elicit all the dirty coolie-bashing you had hoped for, but you can take consolation in the fact that a lot of peoples' misconceptions about Indian culture were cleared up some. So thanx buddy :hug:
wigon et al,
Sorry bros, just posting on the fly.. will get back at you later
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