PDA

View Full Version : George Friedman: THE RUSSO-GEORGIAN WAR AND THE BALANCE OF POWER



Doublethinker
08-16-2008, 03:30 AM
I believe, this article deserves a separate thread and a separate discussion.

Its the best thing I've read on the conflict from either Russian or American side.

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russo_georgian_war_and_balance_power


THE RUSSO-GEORGIAN WAR AND THE BALANCE OF POWER



by George Friedman


The Russian invasion of Georgia has not changed the balance of power in Eurasia. It simply announced that the balance of power had already shifted. The United States has been absorbed in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as potential conflict with Iran and a destabilizing situation in Pakistan. It has no strategic ground forces in reserve and is in no position to intervene on the Russian periphery. This, as we have argued, has opened a window of opportunity (http://www.stratfor.com/russias_window_opportunity) for the Russians to reassert their influence in the former Soviet sphere (http://www.stratfor.com/geopolitical_diary/georgia_russia_twilight_hour). Moscow did not have to concern itself with the potential response of the United States or Europe; hence, the invasion did not shift the balance of power. The balance of power had already shifted, and it was up to the Russians when to make this public. They did that Aug. 8.
Let’s begin simply by reviewing the last few days.
On the night of Thursday, Aug. 7, forces of the Republic of Georgia drove across the border of South Ossetia (http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/georgia_russia_hostilities_erupt_south_ossetia), a secessionist region of Georgia that has functioned as an independent entity since the fall of the Soviet Union. The forces drove on to the capital, Tskhinvali, which is close to the border. Georgian forces got bogged down while trying to take the city. In spite of heavy fighting, they never fully secured the city, nor the rest of South Ossetia.
On the morning of Aug. 8, Russian forces entered South Ossetia (http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/russia_moscows_four_options_south_ossetia), using armored and motorized infantry forces along with air power. South Ossetia was informally aligned with Russia, and Russia acted to prevent the region’s absorption by Georgia. Given the speed with which the Russians responded — within hours of the Georgian attack — the Russians were expecting the Georgian attack and were themselves at their jumping-off points. The counterattack was carefully planned and competently executed, and over the next 48 hours, the Russians succeeded in defeating the main Georgian force and forcing a retreat. By Sunday, Aug. 10, the Russians had consolidated their position in South Ossetia.

http://web.stratfor.com/images/fsu/map/GeorgiaWarMap800.jpg

On Monday, the Russians extended their offensive into Georgia proper (http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/georgia_russia_checkmate), attacking on two axes. One was south from South Ossetia to the Georgian city of Gori. The other drive was from Abkhazia, another secessionist region of Georgia aligned with the Russians. This drive was designed to cut the road between the Georgian capital of Tbilisi and its ports. By this point, the Russians had bombed the military airfields at Marneuli and Vaziani and appeared to have disabled radars at the international airport in Tbilisi. These moves brought Russian forces to within 40 miles of the Georgian capital (http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/georgia_timeline_events_aug_11), while making outside reinforcement and resupply of Georgian forces extremely difficult should anyone wish to undertake it.


The Mystery Behind the Georgian Invasion


In this simple chronicle, there is something quite mysterious: Why did the Georgians choose to invade South Ossetia on Thursday night? There had been a great deal of shelling by the South Ossetians of Georgian villages for the previous three nights, but while possibly more intense than usual, artillery exchanges were routine. The Georgians might not have fought well, but they committed fairly substantial forces that must have taken at the very least several days to deploy and supply. Georgia’s move was deliberate.
The United States is Georgia’s closest ally (http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/georgia_russias_response_united_states). It maintained about 130 military advisers in Georgia, along with civilian advisers, contractors involved in all aspects of the Georgian government and people doing business in Georgia. It is inconceivable that the Americans were unaware of Georgia’s mobilization and intentions. It is also inconceivable that the Americans were unaware that the Russians had deployed substantial forces on the South Ossetian frontier. U.S. technical intelligence, from satellite imagery and signals intelligence to unmanned aerial vehicles, could not miss the fact that thousands of Russian troops were moving to forward positions. The Russians clearly knew the Georgians were ready to move. How could the United States not be aware of the Russians? Indeed, given the posture of Russian troops, how could intelligence analysts have missed the possibility that the Russians had laid a trap, hoping for a Georgian invasion to justify its own counterattack?
It is very difficult to imagine that the Georgians launched their attack against U.S. wishes. The Georgians rely on the United States, and they were in no position to defy it. This leaves two possibilities. The first is a massive breakdown in intelligence, in which the United States either was unaware of the existence of Russian forces, or knew of the Russian forces but — along with the Georgians — miscalculated Russia’s intentions. The second is that the United States, along with other countries, has viewed Russia through the prism of the 1990s, when the Russian military was in shambles and the Russian government was paralyzed. The United States has not seen Russia make a decisive military move (http://www.stratfor.com/geopolitical_diary_putins_new_old_russia) beyond its borders since the Afghan war of the 1970s-1980s. The Russians had systematically avoided such moves for years. The United States had assumed that the Russians would not risk the consequences of an invasion.
If this was the case, then it points to the central reality of this situation: The Russians had changed dramatically (http://www.stratfor.com/geopolitical_diary_putins_jab_west), along with the balance of power in the region. They welcomed the opportunity to drive home the new reality, which was that they could invade Georgia and the United States and Europe could not respond. As for risk, they did not view the invasion as risky. Militarily, there was no counter. Economically, Russia is an energy exporter doing quite well — indeed, the Europeans need Russian energy even more than the Russians need to sell it to them. Politically, as we shall see, the Americans needed the Russians more than the Russians needed the Americans. Moscow’s calculus was that this was the moment to strike. The Russians had been building up to it for months, as we have discussed, and they struck.

The Western Encirclement of Russia


To understand Russian thinking, we need to look at two events. The first is the Orange Revolution in Ukraine (http://www.stratfor.com/geopolitical_diary_ukraine_elections_and_orange_reversal). From the U.S. and European point of view, the Orange Revolution represented a triumph of democracy and Western influence. From the Russian point of view, as Moscow made clear, the Orange Revolution was a CIA-funded intrusion (http://www.stratfor.com/russian_reversal_part_1) into the internal affairs of Ukraine, designed to draw Ukraine into NATO and add to the encirclement of Russia. U.S. Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton had promised the Russians that NATO would not expand into the former Soviet Union empire.
That promise had already been broken in 1998 by NATO’s expansion to Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic — and again in the 2004 expansion, which absorbed not only the rest of the former Soviet satellites in what is now Central Europe, but also the three Baltic states, which had been components of the Soviet Union.


http://www.stratfor.com/mmf/121974

The Russians had tolerated all that, but the discussion of including Ukraine in NATO represented a fundamental threat to Russia’s national security. It would have rendered Russia indefensible and threatened to destabilize the Russian Federation itself. When the United States went so far as to suggest that Georgia be included as well, bringing NATO deeper into the Caucasus, the Russian conclusion — publicly stated — was that the United States in particular intended to encircle and break Russia.
The second and lesser event was the decision by Europe and the United States to back Kosovo’s separation from Serbia (http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/kosovar_independence_and_russian_reaction). The Russians were friendly with Serbia, but the deeper issue for Russia was this: The principle of Europe since World War II was that, to prevent conflict, national borders would not be changed. If that principle were violated in Kosovo, other border shifts — including demands by various regions for independence from Russia — might follow. The Russians publicly and privately asked that Kosovo not be given formal independence, but instead continue its informal autonomy, which was the same thing in practical terms. Russia’s requests were ignored.
From the Ukrainian experience, the Russians became convinced that the United States was engaged in a plan of strategic encirclement and strangulation of Russia. From the Kosovo experience, they concluded that the United States and Europe were not prepared to consider Russian wishes even in fairly minor affairs. That was the breaking point. If Russian desires could not be accommodated even in a minor matter like this, then clearly Russia and the West were in conflict. For the Russians, as we said, the question was how to respond. Having declined to respond in Kosovo, the Russians decided to respond where they had all the cards: in South Ossetia.
Moscow had two motives, the lesser of which was as a tit-for-tat over Kosovo. If Kosovo could be declared independent under Western sponsorship, then South Ossetia and Abkhazia (http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/georgia_russias_response_united_states), the two breakaway regions of Georgia, could be declared independent under Russian sponsorship. Any objections from the United States and Europe would simply confirm their hypocrisy. This was important for internal Russian political reasons, but the second motive was far more important.
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin once said that the fall of the Soviet Union was a geopolitical disaster. This didn’t mean that he wanted to retain the Soviet state; rather, it meant that the disintegration of the Soviet Union had created a situation in which Russian national security was threatened by Western interests. As an example, consider that during the Cold War, St. Petersburg was about 1,200 miles away from a NATO country. Today it is about 60 miles away from Estonia, a NATO member. The disintegration of the Soviet Union had left Russia surrounded by a group of countries hostile to Russian interests in various degrees and heavily influenced by the United States, Europe and, in some cases, China.




Resurrecting the Russian Sphere


Putin did not want to re-establish the Soviet Union, but he did want to re-establish the Russian sphere of influence in the former Soviet Union region. To accomplish that, he had to do two things. First, he had to re-establish the credibility of the Russian army (http://www.stratfor.com/russia_putins_cfe_gambit) as a fighting force, at least in the context of its region. Second, he had to establish that Western guarantees, including NATO membership, meant nothing in the face of Russian power. He did not want to confront NATO directly, but he did want to confront and defeat a power that was closely aligned with the United States, had U.S. support, aid and advisers and was widely seen as being under American protection. Georgia was the perfect choice.
By invading Georgia as Russia did (http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/georgia_russia_operations_over) (competently if not brilliantly), Putin re-established the credibility of the Russian army. But far more importantly, by doing this Putin revealed an open secret: While the United States is tied down in the Middle East, American guarantees have no value. This lesson is not for American consumption. It is something that, from the Russian point of view, the Ukrainians, the Balts and the Central Asians need to digest. Indeed, it is a lesson Putin wants to transmit to Poland and the Czech Republic as well. The United States wants to place ballistic missile defense installations (http://www.stratfor.com/russia_using_missile_defense_geopolitical_lever) in those countries, and the Russians want them to understand that allowing this to happen increases their risk, not their security.
The Russians knew the United States would denounce their attack. This actually plays into Russian hands. The more vocal senior leaders are, the greater the contrast with their inaction, and the Russians wanted to drive home the idea that American guarantees are empty talk.
The Russians also know something else that is of vital importance: For the United States, the Middle East is far more important than the Caucasus, and Iran (http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/iran_tehrans_view_crisis_caucasus) is particularly important. The United States wants the Russians to participate in sanctions against Iran. Even more importantly, they do not want the Russians to sell weapons to Iran, particularly the highly effective S-300 air defense system. Georgia is a marginal issue to the United States; Iran is a central issue. The Russians are in a position to pose serious problems for the United States not only in Iran, but also with weapons sales to other countries, like Syria.
Therefore, the United States has a problem — it either must reorient its strategy away from the Middle East and toward the Caucasus, or it has to seriously limit its response to Georgia to avoid a Russian counter in Iran. Even if the United States had an appetite for another war in Georgia at this time, it would have to calculate the Russian response in Iran — and possibly in Afghanistan (even though Moscow’s interests there are currently aligned with those of Washington).
In other words, the Russians have backed the Americans into a corner. The Europeans, who for the most part lack expeditionary militaries and are dependent upon Russian energy exports (http://www.stratfor.com/global_market_brief_europe_loosens_energy_ties_bind_russia), have even fewer options. If nothing else happens, the Russians will have demonstrated that they have resumed their role as a regional power. Russia is not a global power by any means, but a significant regional power with lots of nuclear weapons and an economy that isn’t all too shabby at the moment. It has also compelled every state on the Russian periphery to re-evaluate its position relative to Moscow. As for Georgia, the Russians appear ready to demand the resignation of President Mikhail Saakashvili. Militarily, that is their option. That is all they wanted to demonstrate, and they have demonstrated it.
The war in Georgia, therefore, is Russia’s public return to great power status. This is not something that just happened — it has been unfolding ever since Putin took power, and with growing intensity in the past five years. Part of it has to do with the increase of Russian power, but a great deal of it has to do with the fact that the Middle Eastern wars have left the United States off-balance and short on resources. As we have written, this conflict created a window of opportunity. The Russian goal is to use that window to assert a new reality throughout the region while the Americans are tied down elsewhere and dependent on the Russians. The war was far from a surprise; it has been building for months. But the geopolitical foundations of the war have been building since 1992. Russia has been an empire for centuries. The last 15 years or so were not the new reality, but simply an aberration that would be rectified. And now it is being rectified.

WarDancer
08-16-2008, 11:50 AM
A perfect time for the EU to assert itself as a an influential power and what does it do? Broker a "cease fire" deal heavily favoring the Russian aggressor. Way to reward bad behavior.

Lambert58
08-16-2008, 12:04 PM
The EU makes the UN look effective.

Hollis
08-16-2008, 12:09 PM
I think there are some miscalculations/assumptions at the beginning.

First would be the use of US forces, regardless of the perceived strength or weakness of the US, For the US forces and Russia forces to engage each other would be a serious mistake with major repercussions. I could only see that happening in a 11th hour situation for the whole world.

It seems to me, that most "analysis" being written right now are not done to actually view the conflict and it's causation but more for political points.

For Georgia to have planned a serious encroachment in to SO, one thing that was obvious, they were not prepared.

For Russia to have planned or orchestrated the event they would have been prepared and we know that was not the case.

Bush's so called condemnations of Russia have been weak to say the least. That seems to say, the US is not sure who caused what and why and have a strong feeling Russia did not instigate it.

I think the US was completely out of the loop, again there is no signs of advance planning by anyone.

1) The incident could have been initially a minor altercation that blew completely out of hand.

2) A Third party knowing that the situation between Russia and Georgia was heated, instigated the conflict for their own gain. Basically played Georgia and Russia against each other. If this had happened, I don't think Russia or Georgia would admit to being duped.

3) Some other reason that is now known or ??


This is not saying that the contestants in this war did not take the initiative and play parts of it for their own advantage/gain.

Lambert58
08-16-2008, 12:20 PM
Bush's so called condemnations of Russia have been weak to say the least.



Really? I think the statements he's made are about as strong as they can be. He's demanded the Russians leave Georgia outright and also stated that the two breakaway regions are not Russian territory. I don't see how the statements from Rice/Bush could have been more pointed or direct.



I think the US was completely out of the loop, again there is no signs of advance planning by anyone.



I heard yesterday on the radio coming home from work that the US had known in advance that Georgia was planning on entering S Ossetya and had strongly advised against it. Sorry I can't provide the source but I hadn't planned on having to relay that news.

Hollis
08-16-2008, 12:30 PM
Really? I think the statements he's made are about as strong as they can be. He's demanded the Russians leave Georgia outright and also stated that the two breakaway regions are not Russian territory. I don't see how the statements from Rice/Bush could have been more pointed or direct.

Example compare statements to Russia, then look at Iran. Also look at Military movements.

Russia was in Georgia, so yes, "Russia need to get out of Georgia". Doesn't really say anything either. I could guess the Russians are thinking, "We need to get out of Georgia, but how and when?"

I could be wrong. :roll:

I think Georgia did not inform the US and acted on it's own. That would put the US in a awkward position politically.

Also if I remember right, US offered Aid, Humanitarian aid. That is a statement in it's self.

I don't think Russia ever wanted to take over Georgia, for many reasons.



I heard yesterday on the radio coming home from work that the US had known in advance that Georgia was planning on entering S Ossetya and had strongly advised against it. Sorry I can't provide the source but I hadn't planned on having to relay that news.


If that is the case, I think that would support the idea that Bush's warning where limited in nature. Hard to blame and go after Russia for a Georgian screw up.

el borracho
08-16-2008, 12:35 PM
It's the Great Game all over again. I hope this cold war never goes hot.

daily666
08-16-2008, 12:38 PM
I think there are some miscalculations/assumptions at the beginning.

First would be the use of US forces, regardless of the perceived strength or weakness of the US, For the US forces and Russia forces to engage each other would be a serious mistake with major repercussions. I could only see that happening in a 11th hour situation for the whole world.

It seems to me, that most "analysis" being written right now are not done to actually view the conflict and it's causation but more for political points.

For Georgia to have planned a serious encroachment in to SO, one thing that was obvious, they were not prepared.

For Russia to have planned or orchestrated the event they would have been prepared and we know that was not the case.

Bush's so called condemnations of Russia have been weak to say the least. That seems to say, the US is not sure who caused what and why and have a strong feeling Russia did not instigate it.

I think the US was completely out of the loop, again there is no signs of advance planning by anyone.

1) The incident could have been initially a minor altercation that blew completely out of hand.

2) A Third party knowing that the situation between Russia and Georgia was heated, instigated the conflict for their own gain. Basically played Georgia and Russia against each other. If this had happened, I don't think Russia or Georgia would admit to being duped.

3) Some other reason that is now known or ??


This is not saying that the contestants in this war did not take the initiative and play parts of it for their own advantage/gain.

I'd add that third option to those presented in the article. If Georgian units were so badly organised and trained as they're being presented by different sources, maybe the Georgians entangled themselves into the fight with South Ossetians on the border while later followed suit up north to Tshkhinvali. Why so badly organised army couldn't complete it's mission? We don't know yet, maybe it wasn't preplanned attack, an action of lower- class units but later the Georgian politicians had to make some good explanation for a military failure.

Also HOLLiS, there are numerous reports that US warned Georgia many times not to get involved into firefights and to make any incoursions into SO controlled territory, exactly because Russians were only waiting for that- fully prepared. They did that, putting themselves into a trap set up by the Russians months before. So it was just a matter of time.

We all must remember the build up to this and Russian provocations i.e. shooting down of a Georgian UAV by a RuAF MiG-29 near the region of Abhkazia. The fast action of Russian units from that region (to Poti) shows they were playing the same gamble over there and were waiting for a spark in both places.

edit:


If that is the case, I think that would support the idea that Bush's warning where limited in nature. Hard to blame and go after Russia for a Georgian screw up.


WASHINGTON — One month ago, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice arrived in Tbilisi, Georgia, for a high-profile visit that was planned to accomplish two very different goals.
During a private dinner on July 9, Ms. Rice’s aides say, she warned President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia not to get into a military conflict with Russia that Georgia could not win. “She told him, in no uncertain terms, that he had to put a non-use of force pledge on the table,” according to a senior administration official who accompanied Ms. Rice to the Georgian capital.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/washington/13diplo.html?pagewanted=1&fta=y

SrB-23Q
08-16-2008, 12:43 PM
It's the Great Game all over again. I hope this cold war never goes hot.

x2
because i dont want to go to war because of Georgia :roll:
which wouldnt last very long anyway if nukes are used.
i think the USA and Russia should settle this in a civilized way, because they both know that Georgia isnt worth a confrontation between eachother.

Hollis
08-16-2008, 12:46 PM
I'd add that third option to those presented in the article. If Georgian units were so badly organised and trained as they're being presented by different sources, maybe the Georgians entangled themselves into the fight with South Ossetians on the border while later followed suit up north to Tshkhinvali. Why so badly organised army couldn't complete it's mission? We don't know yet, maybe it wasn't preplanned attack, an action of lower- class units but later the Georgian politicians had to make some good explanation for a military failure.




Good points, I think it is safe at this time to call it a major fiasco. Who knows may be some poor Georgian Pvt, (rank is not important) decides to act on his/her own initiative over something that is seemingly very very minor.

(In RVN we had a squad set up a ambush. A few NVA walked into it, the squad opened up the ambush not realizing that the NVA was the point element of a NVA Battalion.)

sosed
08-16-2008, 01:05 PM
I think US know for Georgian attack on South Ossetia, because israeli instructors train georgean units and help to plan the offensive. This war is just one fragment from mosaik, but to understand it we must look on mosaik. Iran at the end of July reject ultimatum to stop enrichment of uran, Israel prime minister Olmert resign (maybe he is not willing to attack Iran after Lebanon fiasco in 2006) and large US, UK, French navy armada that is heading to Persian gulf are clear signs that war with Iran is near. War in Georgia have a goal to make Russia busy in new Kaukaz war that they could not intervene in Iran. The problem here is, that no one expect that Russia will win that quick.

I have a bad feeling that war with Iran will not go as people expect, but will be far more terrible and calamitous.

DS73
08-16-2008, 01:35 PM
I think US know for Georgian attack on South Ossetia, because israeli instructors train georgean units and help to plan the offensive. This war is just one fragment from mosaik, but to understand it we must look on mosaik. Iran at the end of July reject ultimatum to stop enrichment of uran, Israel prime minister Olmert resign (maybe he is not willing to attack Iran after Lebanon fiasco in 2006) and large US, UK, French navy armada that is heading to Persian gulf are clear signs that war with Iran is near. War in Georgia have a goal to make Russia busy in new Kaukaz war that they could not intervene in Iran. The problem here is, that no one expect that Russia will win that quick.

I have a bad feeling that war with Iran will not go as people expect, but will be far more terrible and calamitous.

You need to change your news sources (check bolded parts). The idea of Russia militarily intervening in any Iran+ conflict is hilarious.
In case of Iran war (very improbable anyway) russians will make hot UN statements anyway, and they will not sell serious hardware to Iran anyway.

Now on topic:
I think daily666 made very good point:

If Georgian units were so badly organised and trained as they're being presented by different sources, maybe the Georgians entangled themselves into the fight with South Ossetians on the border while later followed suit up north to Tshkhinvali. Why so badly organised army couldn't complete it's mission? We don't know yet, maybe it wasn't preplanned attack, an action of lower- class units but later the Georgian politicians had to make some good explanation for a military failure.I find weak this stratfor analysis . I think we are going to see major slowdown in disarmament of western armies and serious relatively quick rearmament of east european armies. And it is more important result of this war than "Russia is regional superpower now" crap.
She was always being one.

Hollis
08-16-2008, 01:46 PM
And it is more important result of this war than "Russia is regional superpower now" crap.
She was always being one.


The rhetoric against Russia and misleading information is amazing.


As you also pointed out, nothing makes much military sense for Georgia to initiate anything. They were so unprepared.

So what about Abkhazia?

Pille1234
08-16-2008, 02:10 PM
A perfect time for the EU to assert itself as a an influential power and what does it do? Broker a "cease fire" deal heavily favoring the Russian aggressor. Way to reward bad behavior.
And what exactly did you expect the EU to do to assert itself as an influetial power?

ZARDOZ
08-16-2008, 02:41 PM
A decent assessment in the original bit but a little too simplistic (IE: Black and White). Since someone mentioned a "third option" I'll suggest a fourth and do my best to sound intelligent (working on one cup of coffee here)...

All things given so far, what if the U.S. Intel was aware of build ups by Russia? Another thread points out the amphibious landing took place in an amazing time frame (landing 4,000 troops in less than 24 hrs). So what if this was a trap within a trap?

What has and will Russia gain from this? What will the U.S. gain/lose? Time will tell, but we now have Poland agreeing with the U.S. and installing the MDS, plus acquiring superior military material. Today we have the Ukraine announcing a desire for their own build up of a MDS (Missile defense shield) and a better military cooperation with surrounding countries (other than Russia). Toss in all others who are now paying a lot more attention to their relative situation and you may see a pattern forming where Russia is watched a lot closer and planned for.

It would appear that Russia's assertiveness has waked up some neighbors who now are more likely to work with the U.S. and the United State's goals. This could be phrased better but it is just another angle to view from. Time will tell on this on whose position gets stronger. Politics at this level is never simple and never black and white.

Flamming_Python
08-16-2008, 02:46 PM
I'd add that third option to those presented in the article. If Georgian units were so badly organised and trained as they're being presented by different sources, maybe the Georgians entangled themselves into the fight with South Ossetians on the border while later followed suit up north to Tshkhinvali. Why so badly organised army couldn't complete it's mission? We don't know yet, maybe it wasn't preplanned attack, an action of lower- class units but later the Georgian politicians had to make some good explanation for a military failure.

Also HOLLiS, there are numerous reports that US warned Georgia many times not to get involved into firefights and to make any incoursions into SO controlled territory, exactly because Russians were only waiting for that- fully prepared. They did that, putting themselves into a trap set up by the Russians months before. So it was just a matter of time.

We all must remember the build up to this and Russian provocations i.e. shooting down of a Georgian UAV by a RuAF MiG-29 near the region of Abhkazia. The fast action of Russian units from that region (to Poti) shows they were playing the same gamble over there and were waiting for a spark in both places.

edit:




http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/washington/13diplo.html?pagewanted=1&fta=y

Georgians also carried out many provocations towards Russian peacekeeping forces in the past year, it goes both ways.

As for its actual military action, Georgia executed it brilliantly (until the Russian response came); it carried out a full assault on South Ossetia by land and air from multiple directions, and took over most of it within 12 hours. At one point they were on the verge of blocking the Roki tunnel, and interdicting the main mountain road into S.Ossetia. The Georgian president himself announced the start of hostilities. For sure, it wasn't the initiative of one officer who got out of line, it was a full-on attack, with Russian news having reported a large amount of Georgian forces massing on the border in the days prior to the invasion.

Whether or not the mobilization of Georgian forces was ordered in the past few days as a result of S.Ossetian artillery strikes, or whether the Georgians have been preparing for this for a while now and were simply waiting for the opportunity, is a point open to debate.

Russia itself was of course also prepared. It evacuated a large amount of women and children from South Ossetia a few days before Georgia attacked, and kept its Black Sea fleet and 58th Army on full readiness. Perhaps Russia knew when the strike was going to happen, perhaps not, but it was definitely prepared for it.

So yes, in many ways, this whole mess does seem to be a trap within a trap.

Lambert58
08-16-2008, 03:35 PM
The thing I totally don't understand is why the Russians oppose the missile defense shield in Poland. Do the Russians really believe that in this day and age the US and/or any ally of the US would actually instigate a first strike (nuclear) on Russia? For absolutely no good reason? Really?

If the Russian government actually does think that, then they are so far out of touch with reality that they actually are dangerous and should be considered a threat to world/regional stability.

Switek
08-16-2008, 03:43 PM
Russian aim isn't ABM base in Poland itself but the permanent opposing it and provoking Poland as let say "uncountable" and "unpredictable" EU/NATO member. And Russian allies: France, Germany and Italy really buy it.

Flamming_Python
08-16-2008, 03:52 PM
The thing I totally don't understand is why the Russians oppose the missile defense shield in Poland. Do the Russians really believe that in this day and age the US and/or any ally of the US would actually instigate a first strike (nuclear) on Russia? For absolutely no good reason? Really?

If the Russian government actually does think that, then they are so far out of touch with reality that they actually are dangerous and should be considered a threat to world/regional stability.

IMHO, they are not afraid of the military repercussions as much as the political ones. US bases in Poland would pretty much secure Eastern Europe as its own sphere of interest. Russia doesn't want that.

It's a contest between American influence and Russian influence. Many people shout out claims of Russian imperialism, but in reality both sides are playing the same game, just like in the cold war.

DS73
08-16-2008, 04:02 PM
The rhetoric against Russia and misleading information is amazing.
As you also pointed out, nothing makes much military sense for Georgia to initiate anything. They were so unprepared.

There was a "swede" who had thrown his medal away, apparently he didn't like something. He is Armenian, Georgians en mass aren't any more reasonable. Sense of "injustice" can blind any reasoning too easy.



So what about Abkhazia?

It is hard to say, Abkhazia is a holiday resort, and obviously they are looking forward (and they are going to get) their share of "Olympiad Sochi money" from Russia. For them it is important to be "safe" in a couple of years, so some immediate solution (hard "Kosovo" type divorce like) suits them just fine. Also it is popular place for summer houses of russian elite, generals included.p-)

They do have a decent army and had enough force to deal with georgians standing against them. On the other hand it took time for them to attack, so it is inconclusive. In russian news reports they claimed Abkhazia was "ready immediately" to deal with any aggression.

Flamming_Python
08-16-2008, 04:04 PM
They do have a decent army and had enough force to deal with georgians standing against them. On the other hand it took time for them to attack, so it is inconclusive. In russian news reports they claimed Abkhazia was "ready immediately" to deal with any aggression.

Apparently Russian peacekeeping forces halted the Abkhazian advance when they heard they were on the move. Soon after though, it seems that they were allowed through to join battle.

TheArmenian
08-16-2008, 04:12 PM
Blowback From Bear-Baiting

Mikheil Saakashvili's decision to use the opening of the Olympic Games to cover Georgia's invasion of its breakaway province of South Ossetia must rank in stupidity with Gamal Abdel-Nasser's decision to close the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships. Nasser's blunder cost him the Sinai in the Six-Day War. Saakashvili's blunder probably means permanent loss of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. After shelling and attacking what he claims is his own country, killing scores of his own Ossetian citizens and sending tens of thousands fleeing into Russia, Saakashvili's army was whipped back into Georgia in 48 hours. Vladimir Putin took the opportunity to kick the Georgian army out of Abkhazia, as well, to bomb Tbilisi, and to seize Gori, birthplace of Stalin. Reveling in his status as an intimate of George Bush, xxxx Cheney, and John McCain, and America's lone democratic ally in the Caucasus, Saakashvili thought he could get away with a lightning coup and present the world with a fait accompli. Mikheil did not reckon on the rage or resolve of the Bear. American charges of Russian aggression ring hollow. Georgia started this fight – Russia finished it. People who start wars don't get to decide how and when they end.

Russia's response was "disproportionate" and "brutal," wailed Bush. True. But did we not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon for 35 days in response to a border skirmish where several Israel soldiers were killed and two captured? Was that not many times more "disproportionate"? Russia has invaded a sovereign country, railed Bush. But did not the United States bomb Serbia for 78 days and invade to force it to surrender a province, Kosovo, to which Serbia had a far greater historic claim than Georgia had to Abkhazia or South Ossetia, both of which prefer Moscow to Tbilisi? Is not Western hypocrisy astonishing? When the Soviet Union broke into 15 nations, we celebrated. When Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Montenegro, and Kosovo broke from Serbia, we rejoiced. Why, then, the indignation when two provinces, whose peoples are ethnically separate from Georgians and who fought for their independence, should succeed in breaking away?

Are secessions and the dissolution of nations laudable only when they advance the agenda of the neocons, many of whom viscerally detest Russia? That Putin took the occasion of Saakashvili's provocative and stupid stunt to administer an extra dose of punishment is undeniable. But is not Russian anger understandable? For years the West has rubbed Russia's nose in her Cold War defeat and treated her like Weimar Germany. When Moscow pulled the Red Army out of Europe, closed its bases in Cuba, dissolved the evil empire, let the Soviet Union break up into 15 states, and sought friendship and alliance with the United States, what did we do? American carpetbaggers colluded with Muscovite Scalawags to loot the Russian nation. Breaking a pledge to Mikhail Gorbachev, we moved our military alliance into Eastern Europe, then onto Russia's doorstep. Six Warsaw Pact nations and three former republics of the Soviet Union are now NATO members.

Bush, Cheney, and McCain have pushed to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. This would require the United States to go to war with Russia over Stalin's birthplace and who has sovereignty over the Crimean Peninsula and Sebastopol, traditional home of Russia's Black Sea fleet. When did these become U.S. vital interests, justifying war with Russia? The United States unilaterally abrogated the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty because our technology was superior, then planned to site anti-missile defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic to defend against Iranian missiles, though Iran has no ICBMs and no atomic bombs. A Russian counter-offer to have us together put an antimissile system in Azerbaijan was rejected out of hand. We built a Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey to cut Russia out. Then we helped dump over regimes friendly to Moscow with democratic "revolutions" in Ukraine and Georgia, and tried to repeat it in Belarus. Americans have many fine qualities. A capacity to see ourselves as others see us is not high among them.

Imagine a world that never knew Ronald Reagan, where Europe had opted out of the Cold War after Moscow installed those SS-20 missiles east of the Elbe. And Europe had abandoned NATO, told us to go home and become subservient to Moscow. How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior? For a decade, some of us have warned about the folly of getting into Russia's space and getting into Russia's face. The chickens of democratic imperialism have now come home to roost – in Tbilisi.



Source: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053 (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053)

I stumbled on this article. Very intersting read.

DS73
08-16-2008, 04:16 PM
It's a contest between American influence and Russian influence. Many people shout out claims of Russian imperialism, but in reality both sides are playing the same game, just like in the cold war.

Yeah, only somehow US atracts european countries, and Russia is interesting only for such very nice and good countries like NK, China, red latino countries, of course Iran and african "democracies". Sweet company.

NicNZ
08-16-2008, 07:59 PM
Source: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053 (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053)

I stumbled on this article. Very intersting read.

Thanks for that. The author puts it all very bluntly but cant argue with some of the points he/she makes.

Thor
08-16-2008, 08:26 PM
There was a "swede" who had thrown his medal away, apparently he didn't like something. He is Armenian, Georgians en mass aren't any more reasonable. Sense of "injustice" can blind any reasoning too easy.
Well, with the difference that most international wrestlers are behind him including several previous gold medalists. The wrestling sport is arguably the most corrupt sport in the Olympics. It's on IOC's watch list but probably deemed too classic to be expelled from the Olympics.

This obviously has nothing to do with this thread, but since you brought it up.

And to say something good about the Russians, I really liked the sport when Karelin dominated it and things were a bit more clean.

Calanen
08-16-2008, 08:42 PM
Whatever the rights and wrongs of it all - the Georgians made a huge tactical blunder. By shelling those regions, they gave the Bear the excuse it needed to pull the thorn out of its paw. Very silly.

What they needed to do, was get their international case out there about how these regions have always been part of Georgia etc, Russia imposes apartheid there..few crying children talking about evil Russian overlords. Thats far more productive than firing shells.

The Georgian President seems like a bit of an amateur..of COURSE this was going to happen.

Dexx
08-16-2008, 09:09 PM
The thing I totally don't understand is why the Russians oppose the missile defense shield in Poland. Do the Russians really believe that in this day and age the US and/or any ally of the US would actually instigate a first strike (nuclear) on Russia? For absolutely no good reason? Really?

If the Russian government actually does think that, then they are so far out of touch with reality that they actually are dangerous and should be considered a threat to world/regional stability.

Well it goes both ways. You need to look at what would the US do if Russia installed missile shield stations in Siberia, Cuba, Venezuela and lets say Philippines. Then Russia enters defence treaties with Mexico, Canada, and Venezuela. After that it initiates a war Venezuela and Colombia and comes to aid Venezuela stationing 100k troops there. What would the US think about it?

11 Bravo
08-16-2008, 10:30 PM
Well it goes both ways. You need to look at what would the US do if Russia installed missile shield stations in Siberia, Cuba, Venezuela and lets say Philippines. Then Russia enters defence treaties with Mexico, Canada, and Venezuela. After that it initiates a war Venezuela and Colombia and comes to aid Venezuela stationing 100k troops there. What would the US think about it?



You seem to miss the fact these installations were agreed to be accessible to the russkis to show them the lack of offensive character they are. I would rather have a world full of anti missle stations than one loaded with launching sites... but then the dictatorial socialist nations of this planet would be out of business would'nt they.

11 Bravo
08-16-2008, 10:34 PM
Whatever the rights and wrongs of it all - the Georgians made a huge tactical blunder. By shelling those regions, they gave the Bear the excuse it needed to pull the thorn out of its paw. Very silly.

What they needed to do, was get their international case out there about how these regions have always been part of Georgia etc, Russia imposes apartheid there..few crying children talking about evil Russian overlords. Thats far more productive than firing shells.

The Georgian President seems like a bit of an amateur..of COURSE this was going to happen.

Well cal , your assessment can be construed as ametureish... and this happened.
The Gerogian state has been trying to reign in these two rogue russin controlled regions since it's creation. That the russians are so blatant in their PROVOCATION that led to this outcome should be no surprise considering whom really is pulling the strings in the current incarnation of mother russia...... that would'nt be pooty tunes would it now ?.

Lokos
08-16-2008, 11:55 PM
That the russians are so blatant in their PROVOCATION that led to this outcome should be no surprise considering whom really is pulling the strings in the current incarnation of mother russia...... that would'nt be pooty tunes would it now ?.

11 Bravo, it's good to see your vast comprehension has been awarded with an appropriate title. 'Dumbarse of the Week' seems about right.

L.

calimero2
08-17-2008, 03:50 AM
Source: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053 (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053)

I stumbled on this article. Very intersting read.

Interesting read indeed. I think one of the better quotes was this one:


Americans have many fine qualities. A capacity to see ourselves as others see us is not high among them.

RWR
08-17-2008, 04:08 AM
Source: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053 (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053)

I stumbled on this article. Very intersting read.


When Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Kosovo broke from Serbia, we rejoiced.

Educated fellow.

:roll:

TheArmenian
08-17-2008, 04:08 AM
Thank you.

This is the part I liked most.


The chickens of democratic imperialism have now come home to roost – in Tbilisi.

zg18
08-17-2008, 06:10 AM
Educated fellow.

:roll:

rofl ha ha ha, indeed :roll:

SoftLion
08-17-2008, 11:45 AM
Source: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053 (http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053)

I stumbled on this article. Very intersting read.


The author can "imagine" anything he wants:
"Imagine a world that never knew Ronald Reagan, where Europe had opted out of the Cold War after Moscow installed those SS-20 missiles east of the Elbe. And Europe had abandoned NATO, told us to go home and become subservient to Moscow. How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior?"

The soviet union lost the cold war - aren't some of our (admittedly) bellicose actions described in the article, post cold war, not justified but expected from the side that prevailed in the conflict?

"to the winner go the spoils"

Winger
08-17-2008, 11:56 PM
The rhetoric against Russia and misleading information is amazing.


As you also pointed out, nothing makes much military sense for Georgia to initiate anything. They were so unprepared.

So what about Abkhazia?

I wondered the same. Abkhazia of course is taking advantage of the situation and they are Russian supported.

You also mentioned no preparedness on anyones part. I think the Russians had a plan. Not for any specific moment but for a window of time. I say not specific because the seemingly poor showing of the Russian AF. Granted, they get very little flight time as it is but I expected the Russian AF to roll in much more strongly.

As to what the plan was who knows? I think mostly to keep order in their backyard. Speculatively, I don't however doubt that the final phase of this plan was not carried out. If the circumstances would of been right, a drive for all Georgia would not of been unlikely. If for example, there was a serious backlash by the Georgian people against Shaakashvili or if the western response was much milder or limited.

Lokos
08-18-2008, 03:45 AM
but I expected the Russian AF to roll in much more strongly.

The 4th Air Fleet was not prepared for this conflict, and could not commit to a large number of sorties, as a result. Overall, in fact, you're right. They were prepared insofar as they were on alert. But real preparedness would have seen them deploy tactically within the first three hours. Instead, the forces available were committed as they reached the jump off points. There was a great deal of pressure on them to deploy as quickly as possible, to prevent the total collapse of the S. Ossetians. Certainly, there was not enough time to achieve proper force concentration.

That's why I find suggestions of Russian orchestration of this affair confusing. If they had orchestrated it, why were they not prepared to act decisively? Luck, Georgian operational ineptitude and good timing had a large role to play in this victory.

L.

Jaegermeister + Red Bull
08-19-2008, 09:12 AM
The 4th Air Fleet was not prepared for this conflict, and could not commit to a large number of sorties, as a result. Overall, in fact, you're right. They were prepared insofar as they were on alert. But real preparedness would have seen them deploy tactically within the first three hours. Instead, the forces available were committed as they reached the jump off points. There was a great deal of pressure on them to deploy as quickly as possible, to prevent the total collapse of the S. Ossetians. Certainly, there was not enough time to achieve proper force concentration.

That's why I find suggestions of Russian orchestration of this affair confusing. If they had orchestrated it, why were they not prepared to act decisively? Luck, Georgian operational ineptitude and good timing had a large role to play in this victory.

L.

What do you think the current RF position would be now? Are they consolidating?

Lokos
08-19-2008, 11:20 AM
What do you think the current RF position would be now? Are they consolidating?

I'd say they've consolidated, well and truly, at this point. The forces needed to resist a potential renewed Georgian attack are already in place. Honestly, though, I don't think they've deployed more personnel over the last week or so. It hasn't been necessary. If anything, they'll begin pulling out the heavier stuff soon.

L.