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themacedonian
08-17-2008, 09:19 AM
Is Not Western
Hypocrisy Astonishing?
By Patrick J. Buchanan
8-16-8

Mikheil Saakashvili's decision to use the opening of the Olympic Games to cover Georgia's invasion of its breakaway province of South Ossetia must rank in stupidity with Gamal Abdel-Nasser's decision to close the Straits of Tiran to Israeli ships.Nasser's blunder cost him the Sinai in the Six-Day War. Saakashvili's blunder probably means permanent loss of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. After shelling and attacking what he claims is his own country, killing scores of his own Ossetian citizens and sending tens of thousands fleeing into Russia, Saakashvili's army was whipped back into Georgia in 48 hours. Vladimir Putin took the opportunity to kick the Georgian army out of Abkhazia, as well, to bomb Tbilisi and to seize Gori, birthplace of Stalin.

Reveling in his status as an intimate of George Bush, **** Cheney and John McCain, and America's lone democratic ally in the Caucasus, Saakashvili thought he could get away with a lightning coup and present the world with a fait accompli. Mikheil did not reckon on the rage or resolve of the Bear. American charges of Russian aggression ring hollow. Georgia started this fight * Russia finished it. People who start wars don't get to decide how and when they end. Russia's response was "disproportionate" and "brutal," wailed Bush. True. But did we not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon for 35 days in response to a border skirmish where several Israel soldiers were killed and two captured? Was that not many times more "disproportionate"? Russia has invaded a sovereign country, railed Bush.

But did not the United States bomb Serbia for 78 days and invade to force it to surrender a province, Kosovo, to which Serbia had a far greater historic claim than Georgia had to Abkhazia or South Ossetia, both of which prefer Moscow to Tbilisi? Is not Western hypocrisy astonishing? When the Soviet Union broke into 15 nations, we celebrated. When Slovenia, Croatia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Kosovo broke from Serbia, we rejoiced. Why, then, the indignation when two provinces, whose peoples are ethnically separate from Georgians and who fought for their independence, should succeed in breaking away? Are secessions and the dissolution of nations laudable only when they advance the agenda of the neocons, many of whom viscerally detest Russia? That Putin took the occasion of Saakashvili's provocative and stupid stunt to administer an extra dose of punishment is undeniable. But is not Russian anger understandable? For years the West has rubbed Russia's nose in her Cold War defeat and treated her like Weimar Germany.

When Moscow pulled the Red Army out of Europe, closed its bases in Cuba, dissolved the evil empire, let the Soviet Union break up into 15 states, and sought friendship and alliance with the United States, what did we do? American carpetbaggers colluded with Muscovite Scalawags to loot the Russian nation. Breaking a pledge to Mikhail Gorbachev, we moved our military alliance into Eastern Europe, then onto Russia's doorstep. Six Warsaw Pact nations and three former republics of the Soviet Union are now NATO members. Bush, Cheney and McCain have pushed to bring Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. This would require the United States to go to war with Russia over Stalin's birthplace and who has sovereignty over the Crimean Peninsula and Sebastopol, traditional home of Russia's Black Sea fleet. When did these become U.S. vital interests, justifying war with Russia? The United States unilaterally abrogated the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty because our technology was superior, then planned to site anti-missile defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic to defend against Iranian missiles, though Iran has no ICBMs and no atomic bombs.

A Russian counter-offer to have us together put an anti-missile system in Azerbaijan was rejected out of hand. We built a Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey to cut Russia out. Then we helped dump over regimes friendly to Moscow with democratic "revolutions" in Ukraine and Georgia, and tried to repeat it in Belarus. Americans have many fine qualities.

A capacity to see ourselves as others see us is not high among them. Imagine a world that never knew Ronald Reagan, where Europe had opted out of the Cold War after Moscow installed those SS-20 missiles east of the Elbe. And Europe had abandoned NATO, told us to go home and become subservient to Moscow. How would we have reacted if Moscow had brought Western Europe into the Warsaw Pact, established bases in Mexico and Panama, put missile defense radars and rockets in Cuba, and joined with China to build pipelines to transfer Mexican and Venezuelan oil to Pacific ports for shipment to Asia? And cut us out? If there were Russian and Chinese advisers training Latin American armies, the way we are in the former Soviet republics, how would we react? Would we look with bemusement on such Russian behavior? For a decade, some of us have warned about the folly of getting into Russia's space and getting into Russia's face. The chickens of democratic imperialism have now come home to roost * in Tbilisi.

Dominique
08-17-2008, 09:24 AM
Shouldn't this be in the "Rants" section?

Semeru
08-17-2008, 09:24 AM
Aren't there similar discussions to this one already going on? Albeit not as ranty but on identical subjects.

The Dane
08-17-2008, 09:25 AM
Pat Buchanan is a jerk...
Never liked him and his religious views.

themacedonian
08-17-2008, 09:26 AM
Salute to Pat Buchanan.

I challenge any one here to disagree with any one his statements in this article.

Thor
08-17-2008, 09:28 AM
This is such typical Balkan post trolling. Supersized fonts, too emotional to get the headline right, re-post etc.

I never saw Pat Buchanan as a leftist asshole, until now. This speaks a lot of his true colors. I wouldn't be surprised if he would end up endorsing Obama.

cinoeye
08-17-2008, 09:35 AM
SO what about font and who is speaking, when what is he saying is correct?

themacedonian
08-17-2008, 09:43 AM
Ok so far we have Pat is a jerk, leftist asshole ..... when one is faced with the truth one responds with insults.

Challenge still stands.

erebusjr
08-17-2008, 09:46 AM
This is certainly interesting but lets be honest, nothing new :)

Thor
08-17-2008, 09:50 AM
SO what about font and who is speaking, when what is he saying is correct?
Yeah, why bother it's only the rules.

He would of course not be saying the same thing if it was Russia occupying Alaska and then launching an invasion on US mainland, hence why he is a hypocrite.


when one is faced with the truth one responds with insults.

In that case the red crew have been faced with the truth many times.

500
08-17-2008, 10:06 AM
1) There is nothing common between Israel-Lebanon war and the Ossetia conflict. Israel and Lebanon are countries in state of war. Lebanon was attacking Israel on regular basis since the withdrawal. In 2006 Lebanese killed 8 soldiers, Israel responded by bombing bridges in South Lebanon, in return hez started massive shelling of all north Israeli towns. Georgia is not in war with Israel, Georgia never attacked Russian territory.

2) There are indeed similarities with Kosovo conflict. However there are diffrences too: NATO was a third party in the conflict. NATO did not annex Kosovo to itself. NATO did not start looting of Serbia after the cease fire.

cinoeye
08-17-2008, 10:10 AM
NATO was a third party in the conflict. NATO did not annex Kosovo to itself. NATO did not start looting of Serbia after the cease fire.

NATO did'nt just bomb the Serbian Forces n Kosovo, but whole Serbia, than allowed Albanians to burn, kill, kidnap...and to steal the part of the Serbain territory.

themacedonian
08-17-2008, 10:24 AM
1) There is nothing common between Israel-Lebanon war and the Ossetia conflict. Israel and Lebanon are countries in state of war. Lebanon was attacking Israel on regular basis since the withdrawal. In 2006 Lebanese killed 8 soldiers, Israel responded by bombing bridges in South Lebanon, in return hez started massive shelling of all north Israeli towns. Georgia is not in war with Israel, Georgia never attacked Russian territory.

2) There are indeed similarities with Kosovo conflict. However there are diffrences too: NATO was a third party in the conflict. NATO did not annex Kosovo to itself. NATO did not start looting of Serbia after the cease fire.

thank you for at least trying to challenge Pats views. Others continue to resort to insults.

Pat more refers to the "permission" US gave to Israel to proceed with the attacks with of course overwhelming force that extended beyond the border clashes.

NATO was not a third party. NATO was active participant in the war and then did not permit a UN force and insisted its being peace keeping force and then US extended its own mandate by building the largest base outside the US "bondsteel". Then early this year recognition was given without UN permission.

SrB-23Q
08-17-2008, 10:57 AM
NATO did'nt just bomb the Serbian Forces n Kosovo, but whole Serbia, than allowed Albanians to burn, kill, kidnap...and to steal the part of the Serbain territory.

x2
so russian forces bombing of Gori or Tblisi during the operations in South Ossetia
isnt any different then NATO bombing Belgrade, Novi Sad and other Serbian cities during the conflict in Kosovo in 1999.

DS73
08-17-2008, 11:36 AM
Salute to Pat Buchanan.

I challenge any one here to disagree with any one his statements in this article.

This POS is lying and twisting true in every sentence. Why to bother?

DS73
08-17-2008, 11:41 AM
x2
so russian forces bombing of Gori or Tblisi during the operations in South Ossetia
isnt any different then NATO bombing Belgrade, Novi Sad and other Serbian cities during the conflict in Kosovo in 1999.

How many serbian cities where occupied by american soldiers? how many serbian villages were burned in Serbia proper, how many serbian houses being robed in Serbia? How many kosovars traveled on Serbian roads? Did serbians have a possibility to stop? Was such a possibility (like an ultimatum from russian army) for georgian army? Keep comparing.

wildcat
08-17-2008, 11:45 AM
Please stop bringing irrelevant information into this thread, Kosovo, and where ever else has nothing to do with this, Also This is in the wrong section.

Hollis
08-17-2008, 11:52 AM
We have maybe one or two posts in response that does not get into insults or off topic rants. :roll:

The direction of this thread does not look like it is heading where it should be.