China confiscates more than 300 Bibles from American Christians

[Fade]

China confiscates more than 300 Bibles from American Christians
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

BEIJING - Chinese customs officials confiscated more than 300 Bibles on Sunday from four American Christians who arrived in a southwestern city with plans to distribute them, the group's leader said.

The Bibles were taken from the group's checked luggage after they landed at the airport in the city of Kunming, said Pat Klein, head of Vision Beyond Borders.

Story continued....
(http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2008/08/17/6481116-ap.html)

[Mousepad]

Smart move in my opinion.

[gaijinsamurai]

This should not have come as a surprise to the American missionaries. The Chinese government has never pretended to embrace democratic principles which might, in their eyes, be disruptive. A good Chinese-Canadian friend of mine is currently living in Beijing, and she warned us ahead of time not to send her anything political or religious, via regular mail or e-mail.
Personally, I tend not to have much sympathy for people for proselytize in other countries. If Chinese Christians want to try to convert their own, let them do it.

[Buffalo_soldier]

Good news.

China would be prudent to keep out proselytising groups whether they be christians or muslims.

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

I plan to convert the Chinese into drinking Bundy rum...:)

There is an interesting disposal bin in the customs area in China. In Australia it is for fruit and other food items. In China, when you enter the custom zone, there is a large steel bin, rectangular in shape for visual and audio material. Its there for the disposal of western newspaper that you get free on international flights, and other things that you may bring.

However, I was able to access *******, IHT, NYT, etc online, nothing was barred. It was damn slow though.

Great Chinese Firewall> FAIL?

Also 4-5 star hotels have uncensored HK tv, and CNN, BBC, NHK etc.

Chinese broadcast of the same channels shows trees, bambi and other soothing tranquil scenes whenever there is anything controversial.

[seraosha]

But was there a Gideon Bible in the nightstand?

[maa3057]

But was there a Gideon Bible in the nightstand?
Always is, my friend!

[Calanen]

However, I was able to access *******, IHT, NYT, etc online, nothing was barred. It was damn slow though.



There are ways and ways. Its fair to say that anyone in China if they *really* want to, can get on any internet service they want and thus around the firewall. The question is, are the consequences worth it? No Miranda when the Chinese police kick your door in.

[Eoin666]

No Miranda when the Chinese police kick your door in.

Is that a euphemism rofl

[Ordie]

Oddly enough, Bibles changed 20th century China.

Charlie Soong was educated by American Missionaries.
He later made his fortune selling Chinese translated Bibles. He had three daughters and was sent to the US for college.

Much of the money generated from the selling of bibles, contributed to the foundation to the Chinese Republic.

The three daughters:

Soong Ai-ling: Married to HH Kung, the richest man in China and Governor of the Bank of China.

Soong Ching-ling: Married to Sun Yat Sen, Father of both the PRC and ROC, she later became a head of state (title) within the PRC.

Soong May-ling: Married to Chiang Kai Shek, head of the KMT.

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

There are ways and ways. Its fair to say that anyone in China if they *really* want to, can get on any internet service they want and thus around the firewall. The question is, are the consequences worth it? No Miranda when the Chinese police kick your door in.

Er, dude no. I was using a cable connection, at home over there, onto Google.com.au, and clicked news. I wasnt even looking for ways to get past the Great Chinese Fire Wall. And I done that for 2 weeks. And I was able to log onto MP.net, its not exactly the most politically correct website if you toe the CCP line.

Its like if the Internet Police there only patrol google.com.cn and/or yahoo.com.cn, but doesnt know about google.com and/or .au

However it was fustratingly slow, even for 100Mbps connection.

I know you mean well mate, but unless you know what you are talking about please! As one of my mentors at work once told me, "keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut, and you will go far".

[Bia]

"China confiscates more than 300 Bibles from American Christians"

/me applauds

[El Diablo Rojo]

I will refrain from posting my opinions on communism/socialism and the government of China... but I bet it wouldn't be hard to guess.

[Calanen]

Er, dude no. I was using a cable connection, at home over there, onto Google.com.au, and clicked news. I wasnt even looking for ways to get past the Great Chinese Fire Wall. And I done that for 2 weeks. And I was able to log onto MP.net, its not exactly the most politically correct website if you toe the CCP line.

Its like if the Internet Police there only patrol google.com.cn and/or yahoo.com.cn, but doesnt know about google.com and/or .au

However it was fustratingly slow, even for 100Mbps connection.

I know you mean well mate, but unless you know what you are talking about please! As one of my mentors at work once told me, "keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut, and you will go far".

I lived in China so I do know what I am talking about, at least as at 2005. MP.net is not on their radar, and they are not going to care about a round eye on the move. What they look for are bloggers mainly. I knew people using workarounds to get to particularly forbidden sites.

[Fiber]

..However, I was able to access *******, IHT, NYT, etc online, nothing was barred. It was damn slow though.

Great Chinese Firewall> FAIL?

Also 4-5 star hotels have uncensored HK tv, and CNN, BBC, NHK etc.

Chinese broadcast of the same channels shows trees, bambi and other soothing tranquil scenes whenever there is anything controversial.


My mom was in China during the whole Tibet debacle. She was reading a Norwegian online paper about it. She was getting her friend to show it to her. When they came back to the computer the article was gone.

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

I will refrain from posting my opinions on communism/socialism and the government of China... but I bet it wouldn't be hard to guess.

The fact that you still refer to the government of China as communist/socialist speaks much already...

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

I lived in China so I do know what I am talking about, at least as at 2005. MP.net is not on their radar, and they are not going to care about a round eye on the move. What they look for are bloggers mainly. I knew people using workarounds to get to particularly forbidden sites.

Exactly, general net source are not censored, and generally Chinese users there can easily access news sources from the west, if they choose to.

Bloggers are targeted because they are active, not a passive, form of subversion, as opposed to freely available foreign news media and sources.

If you are actively searching to access forbidden sites then you are obviously asking for trouble.

When in Rome do what the Romans do.

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

My mom was in China during the whole Tibet debacle. She was reading a Norwegian online paper about it. She was getting her friend to show it to her. When they came back to the computer the article was gone.

Not surprising since it is a serious event.

[Ordie]

The fact that you still refer to the government of China as communist/socialist speaks much already...

China for the most part, is open in terms of tourism, business, culture and social norms. What most westerners do not understand is the confusing and secret nature of the Communist Party and Chinese Government and how policies are formulated and implemented.

In a nutshell: It's much easier for the Chinese to understand Western Policymaking and lawmaking because its transparency (Internet, C-SPAN).

The opposite is true about China.

If the Chinese government were to be more transparent (i.e. Press conferences, candid interviews, televised Central Committee meetings) I would think westerners would be more sympathetic about China. We may still disagree, but more or less understand why.

[pave_hawk]

China for the most part, is open in terms of tourism, business, culture and social norms. What most westerners do not understand is the confusing and secret nature of the Communist Party and Chinese Government and how policies are formulated and implemented.

In a nutshell: It's much easier for the Chinese to understand Western Policymaking and lawmaking because its transparency (Internet, C-SPAN).

The opposite is true about China.

If the Chinese government were to be more transparent (i.e. Press conferences, candid interviews, televised Central Committee meetings) I would think westerners would be more sympathetic about China. We may still disagree, but more or less understand why.

Very good point, Ordie.

BTW, Chinese Christians can buy bibles, but only from official churches, not bookstores. However, there are a lot of books about Bible stories for people who are interested in Christian culture and religion on the market
.

[Baboon]

Let's imagine afghan muslims bringing 300 copies of coran in the USA.

[Ordie]

Let's imagine afghan muslims bringing 300 copies of coran in the USA.

Not an issue. They are protected by the US 1st Amendment of the Constitution.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Liekwise the Chinese have similar protection by Article 35, 36, & 37 of the Constitution of the People's Republic of China.

"Article 35. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession and of demonstration."

"Article 36. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of religious belief."

"Article 37. The freedom of person of citizens of the People's Republic of China is inviolable."

[Othree52]

coran .It's Koran, use your spellchecker.
Imagine a Muslim bringing in a plane packed with Korans, so what? What do YOU think will happen? I'm missing your point....

[Baboon]

I guess nothing will happen, just like nothing happens to people who cross American borders having ****ography on their computers or reading materials deemed questionable by the security personnel.

[-Church-]

Not an issue. They are protected by the US 1st Amendment of the Constitution.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Wasn't there an issue about muslims delivering Korans on people's doorstep at night some months ago ?

[Bia]

Let's imagine afghan muslims bringing 300 copies of coran in the USA.No need to imagine... sure it's happened more than 300 times.
Or... I'd say 100 times that number (or more who knows) are printed here in the US annually. Not really the issue.

[Ordie]

Wasn't there an issue about muslims delivering Korans on people's doorstep at night some months ago ?

I don't know.

Somehow I doubt they would do that. Muslims tend to physically treat the Koran with care and respect enough not to leave it unattended on the ground.

FYI: Its a Federal Offence if one were to drop it in the mailbox. I recall some local Boy Scouts getting into trouble for dropping flyers into mail boxes.

[Baboon]

No need to imagine... sure it's happened more than 300 times.
Or... I'd say 100 times that number (or more who knows) are printed here in the US annually. Not really the issue.

The issue here is border seizure, not what can be printed in various countries.

I was just pointing out that in USA the situation is not that different, federal agents may take a traveler's laptop or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing, as part of border search policies the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed. You would certainly risk getting into the terrorism data base already counting a few million Americans.

[Baboon]

It's Koran, use your spellchecker.

Coran is an infrequently used English spelling of Qur'an (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an) (The Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic) Holy Book).

[Bia]

The issue here is border seizure, not what can be printed in various countries.

I was just pointing out that in USA the situation is not that different, federal agents may take a traveler's laptop or other electronic device to an off-site location for an unspecified period of time without any suspicion of wrongdoing, as part of border search policies the Department of Homeland Security recently disclosed. You would certainly risk getting into the terrorism data base already counting a few million Americans.
Ah... cool cool.

:D

[SimaGine]

The Chinese government has never pretended to embrace democratic principles which might, in their eyes, be disruptive. A good Chinese-Canadian friend of mine is currently living in Beijing, and she warned us ahead of time not to send her anything political or religious, via regular mail or e-mail.

How come?
Chinese government will take action against individuals who embrace any prolitical or religious activity?

[SimaGine]

Soong Ai-ling: Married to HH Kung, the richest man in China and Governor of the Bank of China.


It's Central Bank of (the Republic of) China, I suppose, distinct from People Bank of China, which is usually seen as Bank of China around the world.

[SimaGine]

Er, dude no. I was using a cable connection, at home over there, onto Google.com.au, and clicked news. I wasnt even looking for ways to get past the Great Chinese Fire Wall. And I done that for 2 weeks. And I was able to log onto MP.net, its not exactly the most politically correct website if you toe the CCP line.

Its like if the Internet Police there only patrol google.com.cn and/or yahoo.com.cn, but doesnt know about google.com and/or .au

However it was fustratingly slow, even for 100Mbps connection.

I know you mean well mate, but unless you know what you are talking about please! As one of my mentors at work once told me, "keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut, and you will go far".

Try image.google.com and search for whatever you like. Nothing happens, right? I know what you are probably thinking, but keep going. Flip some pages and you'll find the page inaccessible.

Go on and give it a try.

[FIA_cn]

weird

in China we can get Bible whenever we want, then why bother to inport?

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

Try image.google.com and search for whatever you like. Nothing happens, right? I know what you are probably thinking, but keep going. Flip some pages and you'll find the page inaccessible.

Go on and give it a try.

No need, first I am not interested in seeing those pages and second I am no longer there anymore.

I have seen plenty with my own eyes, in person. Still remember the words spoken by my grandfather in the car as we drove past a group of several hundred student demonstrators marching on a elevated expressway in Guangzhou in 6-2-1989..."What a waste..."

[gaijinsamurai]

How come?
Chinese government will take action against individuals who embrace any prolitical or religious activity?

It's not my place to answer that question, as I don't represent the government of the People's Republic of China.
Mind you, my statement was not a criticism, but merely a statement of fact. It is well-known that certain publications which are deemed to "disrupt public order", such as Jun Chang's biography of Mao Tse Tung and her best-selling "Wild Swans", which chronicals the hardships her family endured during the Cultural Revolution, are banned in China.
Especially during the Olympics, the Chinese Government has been sensitive of people, both Chinese and foreigners, using the event as an opportunity to cause what they see as instability.

[SimaGine]

Coran is an infrequently used English spelling of Qur'an (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an) (The Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic) Holy Book).

Reminds me of what happened to the name of Korea.
Lying between China and Japan, this land was labelled Corea in 19th century. The name was forcedly changed to Korea during the Japanese occupation, 'cause Japanese hated Corea ranking prior to Japan.

[SimaGine]

It's not my place to answer that question, as I don't represent the government of the People's Republic of China.
Mind you, my statement was not a criticism, but merely a statement of fact. It is well-known that certain publications which are deemed to "disrupt public order", such as Jun Chang's biography of Mao Tse Tung and her best-selling "Wild Swans", which chronicals the hardships her family endured during the Cultural Revolution, are banned in China.
Especially during the Olympics, the Chinese Government has been sensitive of people, both Chinese and foreigners, using the event as an opportunity to cause what they see as instability.

Sorry, no offense intended, just out of curiosity.
I read about that book, in another book "Demonization of China" which roundly denounces Jun Chang and censure her book for "demonize" China.

Thank you for your information. I just want to know what will happen to Chinese if they read something on the internet which displease Chinese government.

[Ordie]

Sorry, no offense intended, just out of curiosity.
I read about that book, in another book "Demonization of China" which roundly denounces Jun Chang and censure her book for "demonize" China.

Thank you for your information. I just want to know what will happen to Chinese if they read something on the internet which displease Chinese government.

A better book is "China - Fragile Superpower" by Susan Shirk
How China's Internal Politics Could Derail its Peaceful Rise.

[SimaGine]

No need, first I am not interested in seeing those pages and second I am no longer there anymore.

I have seen plenty with my own eyes, in person. Still remember the words spoken by my grandfather in the car as we drove past a group of several hundred student demonstrators marching on a elevated expressway in Guangzhou in 6-2-1989..."What a waste..."

You sure have a good memory...:)

[SimaGine]

A better book is "China - Fragile Superpower" by Susan Shirk
How China's Internal Politics Could Derail its Peaceful Rise.

Thanks man.
I'll try to get a copy of this book. It seems to be a decent one from the reviews on Amazon.

[gaijinsamurai]

Sorry, no offense intended, just out of curiosity.
I read about that book, in another book "Demonization of China" which roundly denounces Jun Chang and censure her book for "demonize" China.

Thank you for your information. I just want to know what will happen to Chinese if they read something on the internet which displease Chinese government.

I know Jun Chang has ruffled a lot of feathers with her books, but I don't think she has ever internded to "demonize China". Chang has always been proud of her nationality, and her books show genuine sorrow for the Chinese people, including her family. However, those people who hold Mao Tse Tung and the Red Guards in high esteem have been highly critical of her.

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

You sure have a good memory...:)

It isnt all that common to see large gathering of people in China waving flags and banners, especially back in 89.

Things you see with your own eyes tend to have more effect than viewing it as a photo, you dont know the when, where, why and context.

I will try to think your comment has some merit, and yes my memory is damn good.

[Baboon]

The US does all the same things the Chinese are doing! The US even has border guards using google to see if anyone daring to cross into the US has written or said anything in public that is forbidden. The list of 'forbidden" is very long and totally political. As for demonstrators: not much of that these days due to the tendency of the cops to be very, very violent if anyone disrupts things. There are these illegal and unconstitutional 'First Amendment Zones' that are fenced in zoos set far, far from the ruling elite's delicate noses. Try even holding a silent sign up that is 8"x11" in Congress! Or at any Presidential rally that doesn't support the contenders for rulership! You get arrested. God bless our freedom!

[S.H.P.D]

According to Chinese law, the religious mission not in the religious place and not be allowed by gov are illegal. The Christians and other religious persons should obey the local law or statute in sites.

[S.H.P.D]

weird

in China we can get Bible whenever we want, then why bother to inport?

Yes, in China we can get Bible whenever we want, all people have free rights on religious beliefs.:)

[Ordie]

According Chinese law, the religious mission not in the religious place and not be allowed by gov are illegal. The Christians and other religious persons should obey the local law or statute in sites.

How is the law consistant with your Constitution? It does not mention location.

Article 36. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of religious belief. No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens who believe in, or do not believe in, any religion. The state protects normal religious activities. No one may make use of religion to engage in activities that disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the state. Religious bodies and religious affairs are not subject to any foreign domination.

[Ordie]

Yes, in China we can get Bible whenever we want, all people have free rights on religious beliefs.:)

Including Fa Lun Gong?

[Andrew Chalmers]

How is the law consistant with your Constitution? It does not mention location.

Article 36. Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of religious belief. No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens who believe in, or do not believe in, any religion. The state protects normal religious activities. No one may make use of religion to engage in activities that disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the state. Religious bodies and religious affairs are not subject to any foreign domination.

The state seizes on the keyword "normal religious activities" that do not disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens or interfere with the educational system of the state. An organization that is not state/party approved = threatens public order.

As you certainly know, the Chinese notion of public order is ancient and can be found in laws in Singapore and Taiwan... authorities wield great administrative authority and discretion to find something to threaten public order.

Aliens (foreign nationals) do not have the freedom of religious belief (Article 36 is limited to citizens). And religious bodies and religious affairs are not supposed to be subject to any foreign domination.

The CCP isn't afraid of Christianity per se - they're more afraid of other ideas and cultural imports that follow the missionary or evangelical.

Contrary to foreign press... there are actually a lot more private Falun Gong practitioners than ones observed in public... they just don't get seized or arrested because it is done at home without the political implications. The Falun Gong movment got on the CCP's blacklist when its leader's support was perceived to be political (and the leader later condemned the CCP publicly).

The CCP also justifies blacklisting the Falun Gong because it can be argued to "impair the health of citiens" as there has been reports that its followers delay seeking medical treatment.

:| Note - I do not agree with the CCP; just providing its likely interpretation.

[Ordie]

Therefore, President Bush had no right what so ever to worship at a Chinese Church on the premise of him being a non-Chinese citizen.

[Dong Tsun Chang]

In China if you wish you may walk into any church (as long as it opens to the public) and get a bible from the religious workers there. Preachers would normally be left alone so long as they well kept themselves away from the public sight. China is a secular state and is strictly following that principle established in the consitution. The ruling CCP of course would not let any religious groups and sections touch any political sources including media.

But what the hell why these FOUR American guys were carrying THREE HUNDREDS bibles with them what they want to do?

If I am a Muslim and I travel to Washington Dallas with 300 Kora in my luggage what do you think the border control police would do?

[Dong Tsun Chang]

Therefore, President Bush had no right what so ever to worship at a Chinese Church on the premise of him being a non-Chinese citizen.

Well I cannot say you are wrong but you missed the point because President Bush is paying an official visit to China which means he is enjoying his 'immunity' within the period

[Ordie]

China is a secular state and is strictly following that principle established in the consitution.

Is it freedom of religion or freedom from religion?

The wording of the Chinese constitution is freedom of religion. However, given the evidence and actions of the government freedom from religion seems to be the norm.

Thus Chinese laws violates the Constitution.

[Buffalo_soldier]

freedom from religion is something that should be highly valued in my opinion.

[Group9]

Including Fa Lun Gong?


Now you've done it. You just got all of our Chinese members put under investigation.

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

As a Chinese, I disdain evangelicals because they are pretty crazy. You see how much they have affected the US politics.

Therefore, to perserve a seculiar way of living, those assholes who come to our country trying to spread rubbish to our citizens should simply get lost.:backhand:

But mild Christians are of course, all right. But no evangelicals, and if any exclusive brethrens dare to come to our country, they will end up in the labour camp, because we don't welcome crazy people in our country.

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

Now you've done it. You just got all of our Chinese members put under investigation.

Falun Gong's resented by Chinese, then PC is no use for us. Live with it.

[FIA_cn]

Including Fa Lun Gong?

but sir, do you have any idea about its creed?

[SBL]

But mild Christians are of course, all right. But no evangelicals, and if any exclusive brethrens dare to come to our country, they will end up in the labour camp, because we don't welcome crazy people in our country.
You just export them to Canada.

[Bia]

weird

in China we can get Bible whenever we want, then why bother to inport?

OK... I could be wrong... but isnt this issue not about a Chinese persons choice but rather outsiders prostilitizing?

[Ordie]

those assholes who come to our country trying to spread rubbish to our citizens should simply get lost.:backhand:.

Do you consider Fr. Mateo Ricci an asshole? The Jesuit Catholic scholar priest who introduced trigonometry and translated the first six books of Euclid into Chinese. Served in the imperial court for 20 years.

[Ordie]

but sir, do you have any idea about its creed?

I don't know I don't care.

But your constitution says: Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of religious belief. No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens who believe in, or do not believe in, any religion.

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

Do you consider Fr. Mateo Ricci an asshole? The Jesuit Catholic scholar priest who introduced trigonometry and translated the first six books of Euclid into Chinese. Served in the imperial court for 20 years.

Sorry man, I don't know too much about Bible, I've only read the Bible comics when I was young, and "The Stories on Bible" by van Loon, so I don't know what Books of Euclid are.

But again, as long as they are non-creepy mild Christians, ie they won't link everything in their lives with Bible and deny their kids from learning biology and keep their religious STRICTLY from politics (like what Turkey was like), green light.

But coming to our country telling us Chinese couples should have as many kids as possible so God will be happy while Chinese won't be happy as we really don't want another population explosion, i'd rather want them to go away. No tolerance for those people~

And seculiarism is cool!

[Ordie]

Sorry man, I don't know too much about Bible, I've only read the Bible comics when I was young, and "The Stories on Bible" by van Loon, so I don't know what Books of Euclid are.

But again, as long as they are non-creepy mild Christians, ie they won't link everything in their lives with Bible and deny their kids from learning biology and keep their religious STRICTLY from politics (like what Turkey was like), green light.

But coming to our country telling us Chinese couples should have as many kids as possible so God will be happy while Chinese won't be happy as we really don't want another population explosion, i'd rather want them to go away. No tolerance for those people~

And seculiarism is cool!

Google Matteo Ricci

He's has nothing to do with the Bible or theology.
And everything to do about Chinese history and academic contributions to the Middle Kingdom.

You should read deeper about your own history other than the Xin Dynasty, Late Qing, or Sino-Japanese War.

The greatest period in Chinese History, Tang Dynasty, was also a period when theological openess and freedom was the norm. It was a period where Taoism became open, Buddism spread to Japan and Islam was introduced by traders.

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

Google Mateo Ricci

He's has nothing to do with the Bible or theology.
And everything to do about Chinese history and academic contributions to the Middle Kingdom.

You should read about your own history.
Oh i see, Matteo Ricci, because in China we use his chinese name (Li Ma-dou) when referring to him, therefore I was totally ignorant to his original italian name.

He's obvious no asshole..lolz. He's pretty much seen as a Chinese for many of us.

Again, I'm only against those who are: super religious creep who hates Darwin and can't stand anything seculiar, like abortion (so what?) or doesn't believe the teachings in the Bibile (again, so?) and the use of condoms (yeah, they like kids alright, some catholics LOVE kids too much).

[Ordie]

Oh i see, Matteo Ricci, because in China we use his chinese name (Li Ma-dou) when referring to him, therefore I was totally ignorant to his original italian name.

He's obvious no asshole..lolz. He's pretty much seen as a Chinese for many of us.

Again, I'm only against those who are: super religious creep who hates Darwin and can't stand anything seculiar, like abortion (so what?) or doesn't believe the teachings in the Bibile (again, so?) and the use of condoms (yeah, they like kids alright, some catholics LOVE kids too much).

I'm Roman Catholic

[FIA_cn]

I don't know I don't care.

But your constitution says: Citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of religious belief. No state organ, public organization or individual may compel citizens to believe in, or not to believe in, any religion; nor may they discriminate against citizens who believe in, or do not believe in, any religion.

sir, It tell its believer, do have to go for medicine care uis you are ill, just practise mighty and glorious FaLun DaFa then your sickness will heal.

and it claim its hierarch Mr.Lee Hong Zhi is the only real living god in this world, every believer must follow his will.

well, is it good and acceptable when the "living god" instantly want to overthrow the goverment?

[Ordie]

sir, It tell its believer, do have to go for medicine care uis you are ill, just practise mighty and glorious FaLun DaFa then your sickness will heal.

and it claim its hierarch Mr.Lee Hong Zhi is the only real living god in this world, every believer must follow his will.

Do you believe in free will and free choice?


is it good and acceptable when the "living god" instantly want to overthrow the goverment?

Like Hong Xiuquan during the Taiping Rebellion? A person that inspired Mao Zedong and Sun Yat Sen.

[FIA_cn]

Do you believe in free will and free choice?



Like Hong Xiuquan during the Taiping Rebellion? A person that inspired Mao Zedong and Sun Yat Sen.

well, sir, after few of your family members and relatives dead as the result of " practising mighty FaLun Gong" instead go to hospital, then what do you feel about their "free choice"?

there are difference between religion and superstition.

[gaijinsamurai]

Sorry man, I don't know too much about Bible, I've only read the Bible comics when I was young, and "The Stories on Bible" by van Loon, so I don't know what Books of Euclid are.

But again, as long as they are non-creepy mild Christians, ie they won't link everything in their lives with Bible and deny their kids from learning biology and keep their religious STRICTLY from politics (like what Turkey was like), green light.

But coming to our country telling us Chinese couples should have as many kids as possible so God will be happy while Chinese won't be happy as we really don't want another population explosion, i'd rather want them to go away. No tolerance for those people~

And seculiarism is cool!

Well said !!!!!!

[brandenvonbeneckendorff]

Ordie, I'm not against the Catholics, in fact there's a catholic church built over 100 years in my hometown in China, and I went there... for non-religious reasons, tourism mostly, and I will never support anyone who want to demolish it.

[Ordie]

well, sir, after few of your family members and relatives dead as the result of " practising mighty FaLun Gong" instead go to hospital, then what do you feel about their "free choice"?

there are difference between religion and superstition.

We have Christian Scientist who equally do not believe in modern medicine. But it a choice.

From time to time there are issues about immunization of children but given that there are 48 million Americans who do not have heath care access. Lack of health care universal issue.

If there's criminal activity, then it should be treated as an individual criminal activity and prosecuted with due process. But attacking and banning an entire religion will only backfire. Religions tend to galvanize and strengthen during periods of persecutions (Early Christians, Islam, Judiasm, Mormons).

Don't expect the Falun Gong to dissappear. Thier numbers and support are notable outside of China. Many have set up 'permanent' demonstrations outside many Chinese Consulates in the US along side with the Tibetians.

[Ordie]

Ordie, I'm not against the Catholics, in fact there's a catholic church built over 100 years in my hometown in China, and I went there... for non-religious reasons, tourism mostly, and I will never support anyone who want to demolish it.

You should attend mass to get the experice. I've attended and witnessed Buhddist and Taoist rites.

Hopefully the Bishop of Rome will one day say mass in China.
See link:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4580616.ece

[Ought Six]

S.H.P.D.:
"Yes, in China we can get Bible whenever we want, all people have free rights on religious beliefs."Sorry, ChiCom propaganda boy, but it does not wash. The only Bible you can legally purchase in China is the officially approved one. All refererences to the coming Kingdom of God and the Deity of Jesus as Christ have been removed. That is why they ban the importation of real, complete Bibles. It is just another example of the government suppression and control of religion in China.


==================================================================

B:
"The US does all the same things the Chinese are doing! The US even has border guards using google to see if anyone daring to cross into the US has written or said anything in public that is forbidden. The list of 'forbidden" is very long and totally political."This is utter bull****. The only thing banned for importation is stuff like the Al Qaeda terrorist manual. If you still wish to stand by your claim, then provide us with this supposed list of banned books and publications.
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"As for demonstrators: not much of that these days due to the tendency of the cops to be very, very violent if anyone disrupts things. There are these illegal and unconstitutional 'First Amendment Zones' that are fenced in zoos set far, far from the ruling elite's delicate noses. Try even holding a silent sign up that is 8"x11" in Congress! Or at any Presidential rally that doesn't support the contenders for rulership! You get arrested. God bless our freedom!"Political rallies are private events held by political parties. I agree that the 'free speech zones' are an offensive and excessive limitation on free political expression. However, people from all over the world flee their homelands to come to America because it is more free than almost any other nation on Earth. Your anti-American venom cannot change that truth.

[FIA_cn]

S.H.P.D.:Sorry, ChiCom propaganda boy, but it does not wash. The only Bible you can legally purchase in China is the officially approved one. All refererences to the coming Kingdom of God and the Deity of Jesus as Christ have been removed. That is why they ban the importation of real, complete Bibles. It is just another example of the government suppression and control of religion in China.

source?

or are you in China right now?