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Clearday-TRForce
08-20-2008, 09:35 AM
MIKHAIL GORBACHEV

Russia Never Wanted a War

The planners of the crisis in Georgia clearly wanted to make sure that Russia would be blamed for worsening the situation.

Gorbachev believes the Western media has given Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili a free pass.
The acute phase of the crisis provoked by the Georgian forces’ assault on Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, is now behind us. But how can one erase from memory the horrifying scenes of the nighttime rocket attack on a peaceful town, the razing of entire city blocks, the deaths of people taking cover in basements, the destruction of ancient monuments and ancestral graves?

Russia did not want this crisis. The Russian leadership is in a strong enough position domestically; it did not need a little victorious war. Russia was dragged into the fray by the recklessness of the Georgian president, Mikheil Saakashvili. He would not have dared to attack without outside support. Once he did, Russia could not afford inaction.

The decision by the Russian president, Dmitri Medvedev, to now cease hostilities was the right move by a responsible leader. The Russian president acted calmly, confidently and firmly. Anyone who expected confusion in Moscow was disappointed.

The planners of this campaign clearly wanted to make sure that, whatever the outcome, Russia would be blamed for worsening the situation. The West then mounted a propaganda attack against Russia, with the American news media leading the way.

The news coverage has been far from fair and balanced, especially during the first days of the crisis. Tskhinvali was in smoking ruins and thousands of people were fleeing -- before any Russian troops arrived. Yet Russia was already being accused of aggression; news reports were often an embarrassing recitation of the Georgian leader’s deceptive statements.

It is still not quite clear whether the West was aware of Mr. Saakashvili’s plans to invade South Ossetia, and this is a serious matter. What is clear is that Western assistance in training Georgian troops and shipping large supplies of arms had been pushing the region toward war rather than peace.

If this military misadventure was a surprise for the Georgian leader’s foreign patrons, so much the worse. It looks like a classic wag-the-dog story.

Mr. Saakashvili had been lavished with praise for being a staunch American ally and a real democrat — and for helping out in Iraq. Now America’s friend has wrought disorder, and all of us -- the Europeans and, most important, the region’s innocent civilians -- must pick up the pieces.

Those who rush to judgment on what’s happening in the Caucasus, or those who seek influence there, should first have at least some idea of this region’s complexities. The Ossetians live both in Georgia and in Russia. The region is a patchwork of ethnic groups living in close proximity. Therefore, all talk of “this is our land,” “we are liberating our land,” is meaningless. We must think about the people who live on the land.

The problems of the Caucasus region cannot be solved by force. That has been tried more than once in the past two decades, and it has always boomeranged.

What is needed is a legally binding agreement not to use force. Mr. Saakashvili has repeatedly refused to sign such an agreement, for reasons that have now become abundantly clear.

The West would be wise to help achieve such an agreement now. If, instead, it chooses to blame Russia and re-arm Georgia, as American officials are suggesting, a new crisis will be inevitable. In that case, expect the worst.

In recent days, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and President Bush have been promising to isolate Russia. Some American politicians have threatened to expel it from the Group of 8 industrialized nations, to abolish the NATO-Russia Council and to keep Russia out of the World Trade Organization.

These are empty threats. For some time now, Russians have been wondering: If our opinion counts for nothing in those institutions, do we really need them? Just to sit at the nicely set dinner table and listen to lectures?

Indeed, Russia has long been told to simply accept the facts. Here’s the independence of Kosovo for you. Here’s the abrogation of the Antiballistic Missile Treaty, and the American decision to place missile defenses in neighboring countries. Here’s the unending expansion of NATO. All of these moves have been set against the backdrop of sweet talk about partnership. Why would anyone put up with such a charade?

There is much talk now in the United States about rethinking relations with Russia. One thing that should definitely be rethought: the habit of talking to Russia in a condescending way, without regard for its positions and interests.

Our two countries could develop a serious agenda for genuine, rather than token, cooperation. Many Americans, as well as Russians, understand the need for this. But is the same true of the political leaders?

A bipartisan commission led by Senator Chuck Hagel and former Senator Gary Hart has recently been established at Harvard to report on American-Russian relations to Congress and the next president. It includes serious people, and, judging by the commission’s early statements, its members understand the importance of Russia and the importance of constructive bilateral relations.

But the members of this commission should be careful. Their mandate is to present “policy recommendations for a new administration to advance America’s national interests in relations with Russia.” If that alone is the goal, then I doubt that much good will come out of it. If, however, the commission is ready to also consider the interests of the other side and of common security, it may actually help rebuild trust between Russia and the United States and allow them to start doing useful work together.

Mikhail Gorbachev is the former president of the Soviet Union. This article was translated by Pavel Palazhchenko from the Russian.

New York Times



Interesting to read such an article by an ex - soviet leader. What are you thinking?




All the Best,
CDTRF

The Dane
08-20-2008, 09:36 AM
Pffft..... !

NavyTimes
08-20-2008, 09:38 AM
A possible big flaw there:

Georgia would not have dared to attack without support.

It should be:
Georgia would not have dared to attach without PERCEIVED support. It should be clear to anyone that the attack was never cleared by any western authority. It was a foolish move, and the Kosovo fiasco just made it worse.

If Tskhinvali is in ruins, why are there no pictures of it? Its russia who is stopping FREE western press from reporting, not anyone else.

matthew.manhorn
08-20-2008, 09:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa3eS2qfzd0

Shame on you Gorbachev!

Well I didn't see Dudayev begging for help with an EU flag behind him when he's fighting against the Russian army, hell Chechnya wasn't even a country.

Saakashvili is even worse and more hypocritical than those Chechen extremists.

Mr.K
08-20-2008, 11:44 AM
If Tskhinvali is in ruins, why are there no pictures of it? Its russia who is stopping FREE western press from reporting, not anyone else.

Tskhinvali was shown in pictures and videos here countless numbers of times.
Maybe "FREE western press" is more preoccupied by Georiga than S.Ossetia.


Mr. Saakashvili shouln't be so harsh with Mr. Gorbatchev, once his career is over,and its likley to be over very soon, Mr. Gorbatchev could have opened him the doors in the world of advertising.

Doublethinker
08-20-2008, 11:58 AM
A possible big flaw there:

Georgia would not have dared to attack without support.

It should be:
Georgia would not have dared to attach without PERCEIVED support. It should be clear to anyone that the attack was never cleared by any western authority. It was a foolish move, and the Kosovo fiasco just made it worse.

If Tskhinvali is in ruins, why are there no pictures of it? Its russia who is stopping FREE western press from reporting, not anyone else.

Actually, its vice versa.

It was mr. Saakashvilli who blocked Russian mass-media AND Russian web-sites during the initial stage of Georgian attack against South Ossetia, BEFORE Russia intervened.

All US and world media outlets are perfectly accessible by the way in Russia. I myself live in Moscow.

So is Georgia really such a democracy to be cherished,prized and respected, as Rice claims it to be, or maybe its just another case of 'bastard, but at least he's our bastard' for the US?

Everyone claims Saakashvilli to be such a hilarious democrat. But what does Rice have to show to back that claim up? >90% of votes for Saakashvilli, perfectly timed 'accidental deaths' of two contenders for power in Georgia?

Or is being anti-Russian is enough proof that you are a democracy?

Thor
08-20-2008, 11:59 AM
Tskhinvali was shown in pictures and videos here countless numbers of times.
Maybe "FREE western press" is more preoccupied by Georiga than S.Ossetia.
:D

Or maybe it's because the Russians... Oh, sorry.. the Ukrainan saboteurs in Russian uniforms, fired upon CNN and other international news teams who drove up the border postings and tried to be let in.

As for Gorbachev he just wants to jump on the train to make up for his past. That an old Soviet leader is deemed less imperialistic and war-mongering than the current leadership speak volumes about Putin.

Mr.K
08-20-2008, 12:06 PM
:D

Or maybe it's because the Russians... Oh, sorry.. the Ukrainan saboteurs in Russian uniforms, fired upon CNN and other international news teams who drove up the border postings and tried to be let in.

The Russians are present in all the locations where "CNN and other international news teams " are, whenever whe are shown footage, you see as many journalists as russian soldiers. Looks like they're not afraid or in danger.




As for Gorbachev he just wants to jump on the train to make up for his past. That an old Soviet leader is deemed less imperialistic and war-mongering than the current leadership speak volumes about Putin.
Yeah I know, he's Russian, therefore an imperialist, lets wipe out the 1985-1989 period out of history. It never existed.
As for the rest, refer to Doublethinker's post.

P.S. As for Ukranians and Georgians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFrlalO6dYc
Here they are heliping the georgians in the Abkhazian conflict.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8mAvikRMoU&feature=related
Here they openly state their commitment in fighting on georgian side. That was just a couple of months before the conflict.

Thor
08-20-2008, 12:32 PM
The Russians are present in all the locations where "CNN and other international news teams " are, whenever whe are shown footage, you see as many journalists as russian soldiers. Looks like they're not afraid or in danger.
Surprisingly enough Russian journalists have been transported into South Ossetia from Russia while International journalists have been barred. In case you didn't understand that.


Yeah I know, he's Russian, therefore an imperialist, lets wipe out the 1985-1989 period out of history.
A moderate imperialist is still an imperialist.

Mr.K
08-20-2008, 12:40 PM
Surprisingly enough Russian journalists have been transported into South Ossetia from Russia while International journalists have been barred. In case you didn't understand that.


A moderate imperialist is still an imperialist.

How can he be an imperialist if its thanks to him that soviet troops left eastern europe, he constantly bended during the negotiations with Regan and Thatcher and finally USSR ceased to exist?

Since when the Nobel peace prize is awared to imperialists?

Thor
08-20-2008, 12:48 PM
How can he be an imperialist if its thanks to him that soviet troops left eastern europe, he constantly bended during the negotiations with Regan and Thatcher and finally USSR ceased to exist?
A moderate, like I said.


Since when the Nobel peace prize is awared to imperialists?
Because he contributed to peace?

Klatuu
08-20-2008, 02:02 PM
Since when the Nobel peace prize is awarded to imperialists?

Not a very good argument, since the Noble Peace Prize was awarded to a terrorist in 1994.

Doublethinker
08-20-2008, 02:25 PM
When will Saakashvilli finally get a Nobel Peace Prize, I wonder?

I mean, he did no less, than Arafat with regards to the number of the people killed.

Mr.K
08-20-2008, 02:26 PM
Not a very good argument, since the Noble Peace Prize was awarded to a terrorist in 1994.

Incorrect.
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1994/

It was awared equally to Arafat ,Perez and Rabin.

But lets get back to the article about Gorby.

Doublethinker
08-20-2008, 02:29 PM
Gorby was a terrible leader for the period.

The general idea was good sure, but it all comes down to the execution, and that's where Gorby sucked big time.

As for his recent claims - Gorby is just acting as a citizen of his country. No more, no less.
The West made a heroic fable of his failed leadership, so they kinda have to listen to him now.

GazB
08-21-2008, 01:35 AM
It should be:
Georgia would not have dared to attach without PERCEIVED support. It should be clear to anyone that the attack was never cleared by any western authority. It was a foolish move, and the Kosovo fiasco just made it worse.

If this had been the first time this had happened you might forgive the west for making a little dictator think he has their support. It was an interview with a US diplomat that convinced Saddam that it would be OK by the US for Iraq to invade Kuwaite... of course the female he spoke to was new to the job and obviously sent the wrong message.


Its russia who is stopping FREE western press from reporting, not anyone else.

The CIA uses American tax payers money to bribe free presses around the world and have overthrown governments. When the world started to get wise to that limits were put on the media and they started using NGOs instead. Russia has a relatively free press... the fact that much of it is anti western is no great surprise... most western "free" media is anti Russian... it is natural to fear potential rivals.

Gorby was always more popular in the West than in the East...

Codazo
08-21-2008, 09:01 AM
Gorby was always more popular in the West than in the East...
They love him in East Germany :), I doubt any one in Russia shares that feeling.

Jaegermeister + Red Bull
08-21-2008, 09:58 AM
Never trust a man to do a proper job when he can see half the whole map when he looks at the mirror...p-)

Focus!