Should West support and openly plan to recognize Chechnya?

[Thor]

"West" needs a more proactive policy in order to halt Russia's lust for expansion. Should the free world support and openly plan to recognize Chechnya and other regions that want to break free from Russia?

[jetsetter]

I would. Russia killed upwards of 50,000 in Chechnya, its own little breakaway region. The Georgians killed maybe a few dozen with its rocket attacks on South Ossetia, that number is significantly less than what the Russians did in Chechnya. Russia had no right in invade Georgia because it has done the same as Georgia but on a much larger scale in Chechnya.

[LineDoggie]

IMO(For what it's Worth) we should leave Chechnya well enough alone. From what limited things I have read, it isnt a Democracy by any means. Between the Fighters Brutality and the Russian Atrocities I could care less who wins, let them kill each other in great big bunches, they both like it....

[toki]

Yep, and if we're at it let's print Schamil Bassajew Che Gevara like shirts. Wahabism is cool.

This is stupid. It's not a game. Communications between Russia and the West are dying at the moment. Do we profit from those mind games? Nobody does, not the West and not Russia.

This is not a silly poker game, even if it looks like it. Something tells me some politicians want a new cold war, because everything was easier back then. Newsflash, we live in a intertwined world wide economy. Someday this nonsense will bite back seriously, and than someone cries.

[shingo_tln]

Will citizens of Western countries pay doubled or trippled prices on gas and oil, supporting their governments, who plan to "recognise Chechnja"? Will they be happy, if Russia change prices on energetic sources in responce to Western "recognition"? Will you, those, who work for salaries, pay for decision of political prostitutes?

[Henry's Fork]

IMO(For what it's Worth) we should leave Chechnya well enough alone.....

amen and allahu akbar. Agreed 1000%

[The Balkan]

From a purely moral or "what's fair and right" angle, yes they should. Even among the biggest crimes in recent memories, some of the stuff that went on and still goes on in Chechnya ranks up with the worst. Politicly it would only cause more problems now..

[Albatross]

"West" needs a more proactive policy in order to halt Russia's lust for expansion. Should the free world support and openly plan to recognize Chechnya and other regions that want to break free from Russia?

Could be wrong here, but isnt Chechyna a break away region. Why would I want to support an area that has such strong ties to radical islam?

[annihilation]

"West" needs a more proactive policy in order to halt Russia's lust for expansion. Should the free world support and openly plan to recognize Chechnya and other regions that want to break free from Russia?


Nope, Chechnya belongs to russia and should stay so. I never why we always asked the russians to talk with the chechnian rebels / terrorists. We should have supported their actions in that region.

[Lau]

Sure. Let's support a free Chechnya controlled by crazy Muslim extremists and mujahideens to piss off the Russian.... :bash:

Afghanistan anyone?
Let's not repeat a failure shall we.

[Ought Six]

I already jokingly suggested this on another thread. But taking the question seriously, I would say that there are no simple answers. Each region needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis. A 'one size fits all' policy is obviously not a good idea. It would be satisfying politically to give Russia a dose of their own medicine, but the moral thing to do is to do what is right for the people of the region.

As for the specific case of Chechnya, it would be a pretty isolated nation if it became independent. It would be surrounded by Russia on three sides, with the rugged Caucasus Mountains on the remaining southern border. I am not sure it could be an economically viable entity, with its only viable trade routes through the Caucasus to Georgia. However, if Dagestan and Chechnya both seceded from Russia, that could work.

[kosse]

I think Russia could be destabilized quite easily considering the huge number of the more or less oppressed minorities living in the area. Then again, if the Putler&co fails to keep up the iron rule Russia might just come apart without any foreign "help".

As for regions near Finland..too bad that they have been ethnicly cleansed from Finnic peoples (Karelia, Ingria etc.) so there's not much to support there. But I think there are still plenty Finnic peoples in Russia that the Russians haven't been able to kill into extinction. Just remember how mad Russians govt. became when they thought that Estonian president Ilves had proposed that those minorities should seek independence. They are clearly afraid. And it's not 1930s any more so destroying whole ethnic groups like happened for example in Ingria isn't going to fly like it used.

[The Balkan]

Could be wrong here, but isnt Chechyna a break away region. Why would I want to support an area that has such strong ties to radical islam?

Russia took Chechnya in the 1800's after fierce resistence from Chechens. There's no debate about which people belong there or anything like that like there was with Kosovo.

Basicly Chechens have been fighting them for hundreds of years.

[Thor]

This is stupid. It's not a game. Communications between Russia and the West are dying at the moment. Do we profit from those mind games? Nobody does, not the West and not Russia.

This is not a silly poker game, even if it looks like it. Something tells me some politicians want a new cold war, because everything was easier back then.
I think what "we" first of all have to understand is that it isn't up for us to decide what the Russians do or don't. We can kiss up to them or we can send angry letters, neither will make a difference. I think that "we" at some point have to accept reality and start dealing with it.

Armed confrontation is out of the question hence other solutions must be brought up for discussion.


Will citizens of Western countries pay doubled or trippled prices on gas and oil, supporting their governments, who plan to "recognise Chechnja"? Will they be happy, if Russia change prices on energetic sources in responce to Western "recognition"? Will you, those, who work for salaries, pay for decision of political prostitutes?
The oil price is based on a world market price. As for gas prices it's very unlikely that Russia would start to mess with their Western cashcow. However it would actually be for the best in the long term.


Could be wrong here, but isnt Chechyna a break away region. Why would I want to support an area that has such strong ties to radical islam?
Albania is a muslim country and extremely friendly towards US. Western support would probably significantly weaken radical islam in that region.

[Meatwad]

"West" needs a more proactive policy in order to halt Russia's lust for expansion. Should the free world support and openly plan to recognize Chechnya and other regions that want to break free from Russia?

Such a move by the West would mean they openly endorse more terrorist attacks against Russia, which is a very stupid thing to make them think and do. Remember the apartment bombings in Moscow?

The West has to cozy up to Russia, it needs to for the immediate and forseeable future.

[Albatross]

Albania is a muslim country and extremely friendly towards US. Western support would probably significantly weaken radical islam in that region.

There is a much larger base of extremists in Chechnya, I dont think that is a fair comparison. It's like comparing Jordan with Chechyna, or the United States with Venezuela. Opposites.

[Thor]

Such a move by the West would mean they openly endorse more terrorist attacks against Russia, which is a very stupid thing to make them think and do. Remember the apartment bombings in Moscow?

The West has to cozy up to Russia, it needs to for the immediate and forseeable future.
Appeasement never works.

I think the Chechens were brought to the breaking point and desperately turned to radical islam. Just as Russians have found moderate Chechens to work with, so could the West. Let's remember that Dudayev was a Soviet Air Force General and not some islamist radical.

But this is just a hypothesis. I'm not sure myself.

[LORD-eX-Bu]

chechens are fighting us in afghanistan, no thanks.

[Albatross]

chechens are fighting us in afghanistan, no thanks.

qft, forgot about that one.

[Dominique]

"West" needs a more proactive policy in order to halt Russia's lust for expansion. Should the free world support and openly plan to recognize Chechnya and other regions that want to break free from Russia?

Not only no, but HELL NO. For one, it's not going to do anything to make the situation better, and it would serve no purpose other than to inflame an already volatile situation. We don't need to get into some tit for tat situation with the Russians. Plus lets not even go into the fact that the Chechens make Taliban look like the Girl Scouts. Many of their fighters are religious fanatics. They're some of the most loyal fighters for AQ is fielding against us in Afghanistan. Any support we provide them will only come back to bite us in the butt at some point down the road.

[JVeld]

This is a really stupid thing to say, this is NOT a game of who has the biggest cojones !!! Last time I checked the Chechens were part of the Russian Federation, after realizing they couln't run the country by themselves (corruption,extremely high crime, muslim radicals.etc).....and dont think they wanna go back to that chaos so Im sure they rather stay in Russia.
I dont see the EU doing much about Georgia, they DO depend on Russia whether they like it or not, Im NOT a fan of Russia by any means but I respect it.......on the other hand Im sick and tired of our tax money going and being wasted in countries like Georgia.....we need them here in the US !!!

** BTW, we also kinda need the Russians, at least for now (Iran,North Korea,Afghanistan...)

[Marmot1]

Such a move by the West would mean they openly endorse more terrorist attacks against Russia, which is a very stupid thing to make them think and do. Remember the apartment bombings in Moscow?

The West has to cozy up to Russia, it needs to for the immediate and forseeable future.

We don't need it... it was alway destabilizing factor in Europe...

[Lau]

Albania is a muslim country and extremely friendly towards US. Western support would probably significantly weaken radical islam in that region.

It did not work in Afghanistan and Iran, nor does it work in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia... Western support does not weaken radical Islam in any way.

[Ought Six]

Mw:
"Such a move by the West would mean they openly endorse more terrorist attacks against Russia, which is a very stupid thing to make them think and do. Remember the apartment bombings in Moscow?"That series of bombings is widely suspected to be a false flag operation by
Russian security services to provide an excuse for launching the military campaign to crush the Chechyn independence movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings

[Thor]

It did not work in Afghanistan and Iran, nor does it work in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia... Western support does not weaken radical Islam in any way.
Maybe it's time to start splitting them up instead of bringing them together?

Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are not the subjects of Russia.

[toki]

I think what "we" first of all have to understand is that it isn't up for us to decide what the Russians do or don't. We can kiss up to them or we can send angry letters, neither will make a difference. I think that "we" at some point have to accept reality and start dealing with it.

Armed confrontation is out of the question hence other solutions must be brought up for discussion.

It reminds me a bit of China. One side in "us" - the west trumpets all the moral shortcomings of China, but behind the curtains big business is going on. In various forms, giant contracts and all that (a little symbolic example: just learned that a local media company did the sound engineering in the birds nest). Similar relations exist on a much larger scale. And nothing will change that.
The real losers here are the proxy states. We can sit it out, scratch our chins, build up broken egos again, but the underlying fact is that the economic interests will prevail. That's the reality. Hey, Russians millionaires fall into my town every other weekend and shop the jewelries empty. Who wants a cold war?

"Cash Rules Everything Around Me CREAM Get The Money Dolla Dolla Bill Y'all"
Wu-Tang Clan
LOL

[Thor]

The question IMO is not "who wants a cold war" but "how do we handle it".

[Lau]

Maybe it's time to start splitting them up instead of bringing them together?

Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are not the subjects of Russia.

Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are only examples of nations supported by the west, but still largely controlled by radicals.

It's ridiculous to think that western support in Chechnya would weaken radical Islam, since the very foundation of resistance in Chechnya is based on radical Islam. It would backfire on us for sure.

[Ought Six]

L:
"Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are only examples of nations supported by the west, but still largely controlled by radicals."Iran is supported by the West ??? Do you care to rethink that statement?

[Dercius]

I dont know, but I have a question for those who say yeah to the question posed by this thread. Are you out of your f**King minds???? Seriously, how old are you??? Because even proposing such a move makes me think that you are less than 14yo or that your brain is seriously messed up. :cantbeli:

So you want to give wings to wahabist terrorists and AQ in chechnya??? Do I have to remind you that the ones who manage to escape from Russian forces went to fight against our troops in both Irak and Afganistan. I hate hawkish teenagers playing Geopolitics because at the end if everything ****s up on the other side of the planet because the stupid ideas they supported they just can go to McDonalds and have a BigMac and chit chat with their friends.

Next time, just remember what those, who you want to allie with did to chechen and russian civilians alike, and to russian soldiers who were unfortunate enough to fall in their hands. Those you want to support now are not in Chechnya if you want to put them there, you will need to book some flights from Bagdad and Kabul.

[Lau]

L:Iran is supported by the West ??? Do you care to rethink that statement?

I thought that it was obvious I meant we did support Iran. I am well aware that is not the case now.

But our support back then didn't exactly work out the way we planned.

[Thor]

Iran, coup, not happy, revolution.

[Ought Six]

L:

You were referring to the period during the Shah's rule. Got it.

[BW2]

Should the "West"? How about stfu and do what you like individually on your own for once. As someone who lives in the "West" I don't plan on dieing in a third world war because Russia has beef with the US. Honestly I don't give a flying **** if the US is shocked and bitchy that Russia is stretching its influence, its not doing anything the US hasn't done so get over it.

[SBL]

No .

[Thor]

Should the "West"? How about stfu and do what you like individually on your own for once. As someone who lives in the "West" I don't plan on dieing in a third world war because Russia has beef with the US. Honestly I don't give a flying **** if the US is shocked and bitchy that Russia is stretching its influence, its not doing anything the US hasn't done so get over it.
Please don't turn this into another Balkan thread.

[asch]

Russia took Chechnya in the 1800's after fierce resistence from Chechens. There's no debate about which people belong there or anything like that like there was with Kosovo.

Basicly Chechens have been fighting them for hundreds of years.
that's a most common myth in modern media interpretation. anyone concerned with history of region already know that Vainakhs (lately Nakhs) was totally dispersed in population after a numerous wars between Terekhsky voisko (colonial Cossacs) and Turks and Iranians + North Caucasian tribes backed by late.
in 1588 Shikh-Murza sent ambassador to the Czar and as result of negotiations, lately in this year Nakh tribes begin to officially get into Russian Empire. hard facts.

btw, Terek fortress was built in 1567 AD. not in 1800s.
;)

[asch]

Mw:That series of bombings is widely suspected to be a false flag operation by
Russian security services to provide an excuse for launching the military campaign to crush the Chechyn independence movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings
always thought that Chechen Wahabbi invasion into Dagestan triggered a retaliation process everybody call Second Chechen War.
but it's on wikipedia, so it must be true, yeah.

[sepheronx]

Chechnya is part of the Russian Federation. It would be near impossible to support them.

[N_F_S]

Russia took Chechnya in the 1800's after fierce resistence from Chechens. There's no debate about which people belong there or anything like that like there was with Kosovo.

Basicly Chechens have been fighting them for hundreds of years.

Wrong. Russians took the whole Caucasus, not only Chechnya in 18th century (russian-circassian war, etc.). So the question of recognizing Chechnya is not correct.

Im myself from a region that fought in 18th against russian empire. Lets not get mad and be clever, if you are suggesting to recognise Chechnya, then lets split all other countries to the 18th century MAP standards ;)

No one will recognise chechen radicals, I wont either. They are blowing up the whole region, including my town in 2005.

[Calanen]

The West has to cozy up to Russia, it needs to for the immediate and forseeable future.


Not cozy up, but not deliberately antagonise either. What Russia did in Georgia was entirely predictable, and had Georgia bothered to ask the US before they shelled Ossetia, they probably would have been told, Russia will invade. I am assuming they did not ask, or did not consult with the US before doing so.

Georgia made a really dumb tactical move, and got slammed for it - whatever the rights and wrongs of what Russia did thereafter. The US might want to speak to a few of the other republics and tell them to 'cool it' for the moment.

While good relations with Russia are important, we cannot let Russia bully the West or the EU either. Its a fine balance.

[ren0312]

Not only no, but HELL NO. For one, it's not going to do anything to make the situation better, and it would serve no purpose other than to inflame an already volatile situation. We don't need to get into some tit for tat situation with the Russians. Plus lets not even go into the fact that the Chechens make Taliban look like the Girl Scouts. Many of their fighters are religious fanatics. They're some of the most loyal fighters for AQ is fielding against us in Afghanistan. Any support we provide them will only come back to bite us in the butt at some point down the road.

I really do not think it is a very good idea for the West and Russia to play a game called Titus Andronicus.

[Gesher]

The idea that the Chechen's resistance is based historically in radical Islam is a little far out. For the most part the Chechens are Sufis, while Salafism and Wahabism are fairly new to the region. Radicalism was present throughout the Chechen wars but was not the main force until later in them because all the more "secular" leaders and troops had been killed and the only people left with money, weapons and troops were those sponsored by AQ. Even Baseyev during the putsch took to the barricades to defend Yeltsin.

With all that aside i still don't support recognizing Chechnya. For one, there isn't really even a government to recognize in the region beside the Caucasian Emirate that barely controls a couple of miles. I mean that would be like recognizing Rhodesia. At least SO and Abkhazia had some structure, while i still don't support them. None really have viable economies, sizable populations and will be completely reliant on foreign aid. If Russia really cared about random Caucas ethnic groups independence they would let the millions of them north of the border vote, not just the tens of thousands to the South.

[N_F_S]

they would let the millions of them north of the border vote, not just the tens of thousands to the South.

what millions ? outside Russia?

[Calanen]

Leave Russia's backyard alone unless it directly affects US interests. Chechnya is the last place the US would ever want to support.

[INAT]

God it seems like the next thread will be titled "US and Russia at war"
a real campaign effort going on.


Should Russia openly support the Lakota that wanted unilateral independence form Washington DC? Should Russia back Hawaiian independence? :roll:

Why would America do that it would mean war with Russia?

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iVC1KMTOgwiSoMQyT2LwZc9HyAgA

[N_F_S]

God it seems like the next thread will be titled "US and Russia at war"
a real campaign effort going on.


Should Russia openly support the Lakota that wanted unilateral independence form Washington DC? Should Russia back Hawaiian independence? :roll:

Why would America do that it would mean war with Russia?

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iVC1KMTOgwiSoMQyT2LwZc9HyAgA

nahh))) Russia should sponsor Cuba and give them all the weaponry. Then, in 2012 when the Olympics in London start Cuba will attack Jamaica :D

[Codazo]

I don't think it's something that USA will do.

[Gesher]

what millions ? outside Russia?

North of the border= Russia
South= Georgia

Russia
1.36 million Chechens
250,000 Ingush
814,500 Avars
425,526 Dargins
336,698 Lezgins
498,702 Kabards
etc....

Georgia
Around 70,000 Ossetians
Around 95,000 Abkhaz

Is that around a million?

[N_F_S]

North of the border= Russia
South= Georgia

Russia
1.36 million Chechens
250,000 Ingush
814,500 Avars
425,526 Dargins
336,698 Lezgins
498,702 Kabards
etc....

Georgia
Around 70,000 Ossetians
Around 95,000 Abkhaz

Is that around a million?

Well, Im mixed ingush/kabardian. And I can say that info is outdated. There are around 700k kabardians now.

And what do the once in Russia has got to do with the topic? Since they are parts of Russia.

Better to post like that:

Adygea, 447,109
Karachay-Cherkessia, 439,470
Kabardino-Balkaria, 901,494
North Ossetia-Alania, 710,275
Ingushetia, 467,294
Chechnya, 1,103,686
Dagestan 2,576,531

^ these are russian regions in north caucasus, where the majority of population arent russians. Well and behaviour, traditions and everything is different :)

[ren0312]

God it seems like the next thread will be titled "US and Russia at war"
a real campaign effort going on.


Should Russia openly support the Lakota that wanted unilateral independence form Washington DC? Should Russia back Hawaiian independence? :roll:

Why would America do that it would mean war with Russia?

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iVC1KMTOgwiSoMQyT2LwZc9HyAgA


Or if I am Russia, I will covertly start supporting AQ with my oil revenues as a retaliatory measure to the West's efforts to dismember my country.

[Igor01]

"West" needs a more proactive policy in order to halt Russia's lust for expansion. Should the free world support and openly plan to recognize Chechnya and other regions that want to break free from Russia?

I am sure sure it's doable. Just as soon as you get your hands on a time machine and transport Russia in its entirety back to 1994. There is also this little matter of about half the world's nuclear arsenal, but I am sure you won't mind slipping from under Moscow's control.

So yeah, keep on rocking in the free world and keep those brilliant ideas coming.

[Createdeemcee]

We dont want to take anything russia has, were just supporting countries who dont get along as a state with russia who want to keep thier independence, so what they have air defense. Its every countries right. No one wants to be enemys with russia nor do we have any intentions to medal with russias affairs. All this sucks I like russia.

[AlexMartin2]

I think Russia could be destabilized quite easily considering the huge number of the more or less oppressed minorities living in the area.

What minorities for example? :)

Kosse, are you sure that chechens (dont mention others) want to secede from Russia?

[SoSo]

I guess the purpose of aiding the Chechens and recognizing their independence would be to punish the Russians for their invasion of Georgia? It would have to be, since we never considered recognizing Chechniya before.
I originally felt more sympathy for the Chechen people, back when the whole thing started. Stalin accused them of being prepared or willing to collaborate with the German invaders, and treated them badly. And after the Russians attacked Chechniya our news was filled with images of dead and injured Chechen civilians, for a while. But then, some Chechens started doing terrible things themselves, taking schoolchildren hostage and murdering them, and killing other innocent people. These aren't people we should be helping-many of them are war criminals. And Chechen fighters are now turning up on other battlefields, fighting against us. We never did any harm to them-why don't they stay home and fight for an independent Chechniya?
We shouldn't recognize Chechniyan sovereignty, or provide aid to Chechen insurgents. Not all Chechens who want independence are terrorists, I'm sure. But how are we to know the good ones from the bad?
There is really no need to do anything to punish Russia. Some of the former Soviet republics are now much more afraid of Russia, and this fear will drive Georgia and Ukraine (at least) into the arms of NATO. Foreign investors will also feel apprehensive, after what they've seen. The full repercussions of the invasion of Georgia have yet to be felt, but they're coming.

[The Balkan]

Wrong. Russians took the whole Caucasus, not only Chechnya in 18th century (russian-circassian war, etc.). So the question of recognizing Chechnya is not correct.

Im myself from a region that fought in 18th against russian empire. Lets not get mad and be clever, if you are suggesting to recognise Chechnya, then lets split all other countries to the 18th century MAP standards ;)

No one will recognise chechen radicals, I wont either. They are blowing up the whole region, including my town in 2005.

Oh ok I'm sorry that's much better. They didn't just take Chechnya, they took THE WHOLE REGION. Not like I said "Russia took JUST Chechnya".

But k thanks for the correction.

I'm not suggesting anyting other then, it's Chechen land, it belongs to the Chechen people, the Russians were nothing but invaders. Recent ones.

I'm not even gnna reply to the other guy who says it didn't even happen.

http://www.history.com/encyclopedia.do?articleId=205377

[Afro-European]

Yeah, go ahead and recognize Chechnya. Just keep in mind that the last Chechen war was about not about its independence (it was de-facto independent since Russia lost its first war) but about invasion of Russian proper by the Chechen troops under Ossama Bin Laden flag of uniting all Muslim areas of Russia. That's way you hear about Chechen separatists are still fighting America and NATO in Afghanistan. Former director of the Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare Yossef Bodansky wrote a great book on it called: "Chechen Jihad: Al-Queda's training ground." He is grateful that Russia put down that Jihadist breeding ground and now lets a nationalist overlord run the province semi-independently. But you can go ahead and recognize whatever Chechen government in exile you want. Those guys will reward you by cutting your throat at the most convenient for them time. So, go ahead, recognize them.

[IDF_TANKER]

"West" needs a more proactive policy in order to halt Russia's lust for expansion. Should the free world support and openly plan to recognize Chechnya and other regions that want to break free from Russia?

What, Kosovo wasn't enough? Cause Russians from their perspective just might see their declarations as response to what West did.

[OrangeWolf]

If we gonna recognize Chechnya then Russia will think its their move in the game of global chess. Who are they gonna recognize next?

[oldsoak]

If we gonna recognize Chechnya then Russia will think its their move in the game of global chess. Who are they gonna recognize next?

x2

- then its tit for tat and we end up with bloody noses for eff all. Recognise the Chechens of the jihadist ilk ?, we would be mad to do it. :roll:
Russians might not be our friends but they are not necessarily our enemies in everything.

[TheBelgian]

Should the "West"? How about stfu and do what you like individually on your own for once. As someone who lives in the "West" I don't plan on dieing in a third world war because Russia has beef with the US. Honestly I don't give a flying **** if the US is shocked and bitchy that Russia is stretching its influence, its not doing anything the US hasn't done so get over it.

I suppose you live in Europe. The "West" in this case is primarily Europe. We're the ones in jeopardy here. On the the border of an increasingly beligerent and agressive Russia, at the mercy of their energy supply. We should be the ones making a stand, but we need the US by our side. Without them, militarily, we're nothing. Sad but true, I wish things were different, but EU leaders have about as much vision and foresight as a goldfish, so the second all was quite on the eastern front they slashed defense budgets and became dependant on Russian energy.

I'm not one to stir the pot, but I think we have to make a firm, united stance against Russia's recent behaviour. The absolute priority of EU foreign policy now should be to recude or eliminate our energy dependance on Russia.

[oldsoak]

I agree to the energy bit - however Bluewings has a point. The crisis in Georgia was forseeable. If you had asked any of the Russians posters here what the Russian reaction would have been to the events in S Ossetia, ( after taking into account Russian feelings over Kosovo ) they probably would have said that Russia would retaliate. If they saw that, why didnt we ? We were blinded by our importance and self-righteousness. If East and West are prepared to escalate confrontations - where will it end ? Does anyone here think a full scale war is really worth it ?
We have to understand that states value influence ( or control, call it what you will ) , and being able to influence the Georgians or Ukranians or whoever is as important to the East as the West. Therefore both of us have to enter into some agreement as to how far we go. If this sounds like the old fashioned idea of carving up the world between superpowers - so be it. Russians understand diplomacy and they expect a rouble for every rouble they give. We need stability now. Given stable relations and a few more generations and Russian decision makers will have far more in common with us than they have now. They will be Russians who have travelled widely, lived in Europe or the US and have a more sophisticated understanding of us. IMHO, we need to tread more slowly and carefully than we are.

[N_F_S]

Oh ok I'm sorry that's much better. They didn't just take Chechnya, they took THE WHOLE REGION. Not like I said "Russia took JUST Chechnya".

But k thanks for the correction.

I'm not suggesting anyting other then, it's Chechen land, it belongs to the Chechen people, the Russians were nothing but invaders. Recent ones.

I'm not even gnna reply to the other guy who says it didn't even happen.

http://www.history.com/encyclopedia.do?articleId=205377

Or really? What do you have to say about:

British Empire

France

And all their colonies, then? And all other countries that fought wars in history.

Its immature to say that a land is chechen's when all this was set ages ago in multiple wars, do you suggest another war? No, thank you.

You watch, how will Georgia end up. I dont want to be another Georgia just because US have some problems with Russia. Im fine living in Russia as a russian citizen.

If it was a better life in Georgia, believe me, all people would migrate there instead of Russia (like they migrate to EU and US).

There are 1,5 mln georgians in Russia working, now do the math how many russians in Georgia ;)

If Georgia wants South Ossetia and Abkhazia, then they should work better on their economy to bring up the life to european standards. All they do, is force, force and force.

[Blue_0]

No, we should not interfere in checknya.

The current Russian goverment is perferable to whatever an independent Islamic Terrorist State of Chechnya would be.

[N_F_S]

these are who you support, McCain & Co? ;)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=869623057043197461


Good luck on that.

[SBL]

-edit-

123456

[Mr X]

I'm not one to stir the pot, but I think we have to make a firm, united stance against Russia's recent behaviour. The absolute priority of EU foreign policy now should be to recude or eliminate our energy dependance on Russia.

This is a good point.

It needs to be remembered that the recognition of Kosovo was Multilateral. However Russia's recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia was a unilateral act.

It would be complete stupidity to recognize Chechnya. However with all the Geopolitical tit for tat, it might be a good idea to threaten the Russians with it. It might wake them up to how dangerous the game they are playing really is.

Russia has given the West an indication of its aims and intentions. From the Georgian conflict to it's aggressive statements about the Missile Defense Shield in Poland. So lets use this indication to our own benefit. Lets say "Thanks Russia for the timely warning of our weakness" and turn it into Europe's strength.

Its time the West quietly look for natural resources elsewhere.
The Russians clearly see Europe's need for Russia's natural gas et al, as a sword of Damocles that is hanging above Europe.

What Russia clearly fails to appreciate is that as much as Europe needs Russia's natural resources, Russia and her economy needs Europe to pay for them. Its a give and take relationship. Russia is much much weaker than it thinks and it may be cutting its own throat if it scares Europe into looking elsewhere for resources.

It is a dangerous game Putin and Co. are playing with the West to be sure, but the danger is all Russia's and I don't think they realise it.:oops:

[Serginho]

Russia has given the West an indication of its aims and intentions. From the Georgian conflict to it's aggressive statements about the Missile Defense Shield in Poland.

Its time the West quietly look to natural resources elsewhere.



Try to look at wider perspective - 20 years ago it was a bipolar world. Good or bad, thats a separate discussion. Then things went berserk. The whole generation here has been dumped into poverty and humiliated. Their pride in their country has gone below zero. It took us 20 years to rebuild what we could and plug the holes of ethnic conflicts, economy, country falling apart as much as we could.

What happened during these 20 years: NATO enlargement, Missiles brought to the border, Balkans, IRAQ twice, etc. etc. . Every time we complained about things, the reaction we got back was to "F...CK OFF!" Don't you think its kind of uneasy to accept on our side?

Now, we are getting out of the mess, first time we said things firmly. We behaved firmly on the issue, which is already tooooooo close and affects our interests. What we get back is a bunch of idiotic reactions "HOW DARE YOU ARE!"

Try to get used that we DO DARE now and maybe next time use different rhetoric, try to treat us as a normal country, not like a big North Korea. Then we will behave accordingly!

And good luck with alternative energy sources! rofl

[seraosha]

Russia's recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia is DOA in the UN and the Security Council.
It's just a feel good measure for Putin and his stooges.

But getting all moronic and trying to recognize Chechnya as some form of "tit for tat" only gets traction with nuts.

[Mr X]

Try to look at wider perspective - 20 years ago it was a bipolar world. Good or bad, thats a separate discussion. Then things went berserk. The whole generation here has been dumped into poverty and humiliated. Their pride in their country has gone below zero. It took us 20 years to rebuild what we could and plug the holes of ethnic conflicts, economy, country falling apart as much as we could.

What happened during these 20 years: NATO enlargement, Missiles brought to the border, Balkans, IRAQ twice, etc. etc. . Every time we complained about things, the reaction we got back was to "F...CK OFF!" Don't you think its kind of uneasy to accept on our side?

Now, we are getting out of the mess, first time we said things firmly. We behaved firmly on the issue, which is already tooooooo close and affects our interests. What we get back is a bunch of idiotic reactions "HOW DARE YOU ARE!"

Try to get used that we DO DARE now and maybe next time use different rhetoric, try to treat us as a normal country, not like a big North Korea. Then we will behave accordingly!

And good luck with alternative energy sources! rofl


The Simple fact of the matter is that we in the West see Russia acting as the Soviets once acted. That will of course get the Western world very very defensive.

As far as the MDS/ABM being deployed to Poland, why do you think the Poles allowed it even though they knew it would make them as the Russians themselves have said "a target"? Well the Poles lived for a long time under Russian imperialism and I can bet they don't want to go down that road again.

I mean after all a defense system is just that a defense system. Its not offensive. Its pretty hard to have their bleeding hearts taken seriously when Russia states that a defensive weapon system becomes a target for its offensive weapons.

As I said NATO and the West should should thank Russia for coming out of its shell and reminding us what they are really like.

[annihilation]

Russia took Chechnya in the 1800's after fierce resistence from Chechens. There's no debate about which people belong there or anything like that like there was with Kosovo.

Basicly Chechens have been fighting them for hundreds of years.

Yes the russians have been controlling that region since the 1800's. There is no debate, its russian soil and will always stay russian soil.

[The Balkan]

Yes the russians have been controlling that region since the 1800's. There is no debate, its russian soil and will always stay russian soil.

This post doesn't make much sense, but aight, if you say so.

[Snoshi]

these are who you support, McCain & Co? ;)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=869623057043197461


Good luck on that.

What about Kadyrovtsy and Jamadevzy?

[Lokos]

Alright, keyboard warriors. You've recognized an independent Chechnya. Presumably, having found a stooge willing to take on the mantle of 'leader-in-exile'. Now what? I mean, okay, you issued the official recognition, the Russians laughed for a while and then... what? What are you (rather, your governments) going to do? Send weapons to the Chechens? How? The Russians could exert control over every inch of that territory in under a week. Which Chechens not under Kadyrov's control are going to take up arms?

The end result is this; the governments involved look like the biggest pack of fools this side of reality.

Keep bringing the gold, fellas.

L.

[Kampfbaer]

As stated before a tit for tat like recognising Chechnya is totally dumb and senseless.

If the West, the EU likes to show Russia some good manners, they can also do so only economically, Russia is simply a big bad bully but compared to the EU an economic dwarf.

The most important thing is to not rely on Russian gas and oil and restrict Russian involvement in western corporations.

[Lokos]

The most important thing is to not rely on Russian gas and oil and restrict Russian involvement in western corporations.

Ah, yes. Good luck with that.

L.

[Olegi]

Do anybody here (or everywhere) have the document (or request in any other form) from Chechnya askng for recognition? Or someone is going to recognize some country without their wish for it? You can add Moscow, St.Petersburg, etc. to the list and continue this discussion:)

[N_F_S]

What about Kadyrovtsy and Jamadevzy?


Kadyrovtsy and Jamadevzy were the same people. They only had arguments for taking power in Chechnya. As you know Kadyrov is now the main man there officially and his band tries to establish peace over there fighting versus wahhabits in the woods. These islamists are in my region too (in the woods of course).

[Revolveri]

When Europe stops being so dependant on Russia we can get tougher. Until then it's probably better to keep our mouths shut.

We'll have to hope that the research at ITER will pay off and we'll have fusion power in the near future..

What comes to Chechnya? I don't really care about them if only way they can fight their war is to take school children as hostages.

[Snoshi]

Kadyrovtsy and Jamadevzy were the same people. They only had arguments for taking power in Chechnya. As you know Kadyrov is now the main man there officially and his band tries to establish peace over there.

Yes.. The only difference between "Mujahadden" and Kadyrovtsy is that Kadyrov is on Russian side.

[N_F_S]

Yes.. The only difference between "Mujahadden" and Kadyrovtsy is that Kadyrov is on Russian side.

and doesnt have plans to make a "Caucasus Emirates" conquering the whole North Caucasus among the other national republics. To be correct 7 republics:

Adygea, 447,109
Karachay-Cherkessia, 439,470
Kabardino-Balkaria, 901,494 <- I live in this one
North Ossetia-Alania, 710,275
Ingushetia, 467,294
Chechnya, 1,103,686
Dagestan 2,576,531

[Lokos]

Yes.. The only difference between "Mujahadden" and Kadyrovtsy is that Kadyrov is on Russian side.

Absolutely. Is there a problem? What kind of moral outrage are you looking for? The US couldn't wait to come to an agreement with the same Iraqi tribal leaders who armed, organized and supported efforts to kill Coalition soldiers, collaborators and the civilians who got in the way from 2003 until 2007. The same Afghani Mujahideen who gave rise to AQ in the late 1980s are now considered friends and allies.

The world runs on interests, not on pretty ideals.

L.

[Snoshi]

Absolutely. Is there a problem? What kind of moral outrage are you looking for? The US couldn't wait to come to an agreement with the same Iraqi tribal leaders who armed, organized and supported efforts to kill Coalition soldiers, collaborators and the civilians who got in the way from 2003 until 2007. The same Afghani Mujahideen who gave rise to AQ in the late 1980s are now considered friends and allies.

The world runs on interests, not on pretty ideals.

L.
I know. I just pointed it out because some people try to distinguish between these groups.

[Lokos]

I know. I just pointed it out because some people try to distinguish between these groups.

We all like to think our house stands golden on a hill overlooking our inferiors.

L.

[Adux]

Indian Army has already killed enough Chechens in Kashmir, And we dont want anymore. I like them with Russia, as long as they keep those radical extremist pinned and getting killed over there.

[The Balkan]

For such a tiny group (there is only like a 1.5-2 million Chechens in the world) they sure get around.

[savushka]

Wow, I'm impressed. Do any of you people giving such suggestions, and accusing Russia, have even the slightest knowledge of the events in Chechnya in 1991-1995? What actually happened there before the war?

I'm not even going to accent on the political viewpoints of the matter... because it doesn't stand up to any criticism...

[jokuvaan]

Recognizing Chechnya at this point doesnt make sense, it would have been sensible before wars, or in 1997 when last free elections were held there and Mashadov become a president and needed a help to run the country that faced many internal and outside threats.

What West should do is bring-up more about what savagery has Russian forces done there almost 10 years. Photo galleries and such. Correcting Russian dis-information about al-qaeda bases in Chechnya and so on.

[Thor]

Recognizing Chechnya at this point doesnt make sense, it would have been sensible before wars, or in 1997 when last free elections were held there and Mashadov become a president and needed a help to run the country that faced many internal and outside threats.

What West should do is bring-up more about what savagery has Russian forces done there almost 10 years. Photo galleries and such. Correcting Russian dis-information about al-qaeda bases in Chechnya and so on.

I think this is something many here did misunderstand. The headline says "support and openly plan to recognize" meaning not to recognize something that doesn't exist but to initiate (or rather re-initiate) a process and start sending the message that the West at some point plan to recognize Chechnya or perhaps other Russian regions. A similar process to that which Russia carried out in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

To this one can add what Rossijskaja Gazeta wrote today, namely expressing concern over that the Russian recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia may hand several Russian regions a new argument to strive for independence. So it's not just me seeing this and Russia is a very diverse country.

[Ludipipo]

"West" needs a more proactive policy in order to halt Russia's lust for expansion. Should the free world support and openly plan to recognize Chechnya and other regions that want to break free from Russia?

futureperfect™: http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=572&a=820710 (http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=572&a=820710)

Your own separatists are getting stronger everyday. rofl

[Thor]

futureperfect™: http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=572&a=820710 (http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=572&a=820710)

Your own separatists are getting stronger everyday. rofl
Old news. We're ****ed for now.

We probably need a Putin of our own.

[Ludipipo]

Old news. We're ****ed for now.

We probably need a Putin of our own.


http://www.danielpipes.org/pics/new/large/582.jpg

[Flamming_Python]

A Prague Watchdog 'special' :)


An empire on the verge of collapse
By Sergei Gligashvili, special to Prague Watchdog

U.S. presidential candidate John McCain recently made a statement
which was bound to appear at the present time. He said that after
Russia recognized the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, the
countries of the West ought to think about the independence of
Chechnya. McCain was the first to put into words what is very soon
certain to become a subject of the most partisan discussion. The
senator seemed to be concerned less about the restoration of
international law and uniform standards than to point to the
vulnerability of Russia itself, if it becomes the target of its own
moves.

However, the problem touched on by the American politician is a
significantly wider one. The Kremlin has given an impetus to processes
that no one is capable of controlling. And it looks as though Russia
may turn out to be the principal victim of a new world order, or –
more precisely – disorder. At some point events will evolve
spontaneously, since Moscow’s recognition of Georgia’s autonomous
regions is setting in motion a mechanism that revises the basic
principle of territorial integrity in the post-war world.

The example of Kosovo, which the Kremlin likes to invoke as it tries
to prove that the West has brought down the system of legal norms
which ensure the priority of a nation’s territorial integrity over its
right to self-determination, does not constitute a valid argument.
Serbia’s Albanians gained the right to secession not because their
separatism was somehow particularly compelling from a legal point of
view, but because of exceptional circumstances. The genocide to which
they were subjected was proven and obvious. It gave the ethnic group
an incontestable right to separate from a state that had become the
source of an inhuman programme of extermination. In the case of
Abkhazia and South Ossetia, the military actions were on each occasion
conducted under the slogan of restoring Georgia’s territorial
integrity, and although both sides engaged in ethnic cleansing, there
are today insufficient grounds for speaking of a total extermination
of Abkhaz and Ossetians carried out by the Georgian government.

The nub of the matter is that there are so far no serious legal
arguments in favour of the recognition of Abkhazian and South Ossetian
national autonomy. Russia’s decision opens the way for the arbitrary
launching of centrifugal forces – above all in Russia, where the
problem of the federal structure still contains many concealed
hazards. Vladimir Putin used force to resolve it, by simply reducing
to a minimum the rights of constituent entities of the Russian
Federation. By abolishing elected regional governors on the pretext
that after the events in Beslan a situation had developed in the
country that threatened national security, and by ensuring that the
party of power had a privileged position in local parliaments, Moscow
took the regions under its full control.

In reality, however, the regional movement managed to hold its own,
though it was forced to keep itself hidden. Triumphant centralism in
no way extinguished the wish of the Federation’s constituent entities
to gain autonomy, the desired extent of which varies from region to
region. Thus, first and foremost, the recognition of Abkhazia and
South Ossetia undermines the state structure of the Russian
Federation. Because they received no support from the outside world,
Russia’s numerous separatist movements quickly shrank to nothing, but
they will once again return to life if their right to exist, even if
only in the distant future, is confirmed by the precedents of Abkhazia
and South Ossetia.

And here the example of Chechnya may prove to be formative. The scope
of the powers accorded to the Chechen authorities many times exceeds
the limits that Putin’s regime set for the government of constituent
federal entities. For several years now, political analysts have
argued that the "systemic separatism" of Kadyrov’s Chechnya long ago
took the republic beyond the limits of Russia’s constitutional
jurisdiction, and that Kadyrov’s formal loyalty was merely a cover for
aggressive sovereignization. That is a controversial assertion, since
the Kremlin has never viewed the Chechen administration as a civil
body functioning under normal conditions. All the preferential powers
Kadyrov received were given to him so that he could fulfil specific
repressive tasks, since Chechen society could only be governed in the
form of a dictatorship.

But however that may be, entirely new opportunities are now opening up
for the Chechen government. If, contrary to expectation, Kadyrov
really does decide to cease his obedience to Moscow, he can count on
strong support from outside. Moreover, the assistance to be offered to
the new Chechen separatism, will not only be political. There have
recently been calls in the American press for the U.S. government to
equip Georgia with Stinger missiles.

Where specific actions are concerned, the West will have to play a
delicate and difficult game, given the fact that today's Chechnya is a
conglomerate of forces and interests. It is obvious that direct
cooperation with Kadyrov’s dictatorial regime is impossible. Likewise,
the Caucasian Emirate, with its doctrinal connection to Al-Qaeda,
cannot act as a partner to which open assistance may be provided. The
only body that may be easily granted the status of an already existing
government in exile which may exert a serious influence on the course
of events inside Chechnya is the national-separatist group led by
Akhmed Zakayev, which over long years has defended the controversial
thesis that the struggle for national independence in no way
contradicts the ideals and norms of a democratic society.

It is also obvious that if Zakayev becomes a source of serious
material assets, it will not only help him to strengthen his own
position and breathe new life into the Chechen separatist project, but
also to create his own national liberation front in Chechnya, and then
gradually take the fighting units of the Caucasus Emirate under his
control – for one cannot really talk of a serious conflict or
divergence of outlook between the various wings of the Chechen
resistance. The real reason for Dokka Umarov’s decision to take the
plunge into the radical waters of Islam was his realization that no
support by the West for the armed underground was possible – it had
nothing to do with any desire on his part to become a fanatical
assassin. The quest for patrons from the Arab world was a step forced
on him, not one that was mandatory.

There will also be a place for Ramzan Kadyrov in this new, bizarre
conglomerate, if he enters into open conflict with the Kremlin. While
it is true that Kadyrov will probably not be required to play the role
of an independent figure, if he builds himself one way or the other
into Zakayev’s government he will also become a full participant in
the war with Russia.

Moscow’s current actions give the West a perfect right to remember
once again the so-called "Brzezinski plan" for the break-up of the
Soviet Union and to apply it to Russia, which is once more becoming a
serious threat to the civilized world. And this means that all the
separatist movements in Russia are now the subject of constant
interest and assistance from Western governments.

It is worth pointing out that the Russian separatist front of today is
much broader and more diverse than it was in Soviet times. The so-
called “regionalists”, who uphold the right of the individual Russian
regions to independence, can stand shoulder to shoulder with the
national movements. Chechnya has the leading position in this process,
but it will very soon be overtaken by the separatists of Ingria,
eastern Siberia, the Urals, and all who hate Moscow and find the
burden of its power intolerable. In London, Tbilisi, Warsaw and
Washington, led by Western special services, parallel separatist
bodies will act, their main task being to drain the political power
from Russia in such a way that the country, devoid of internal
structure, crumbles to pieces like wheaten crackers.

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

So, Russia flexes a little muscle and everybody is the West's friend again, so long as they hate Russia? Even Islamic militants?

[Lau]

So, Russia flexes a little muscle and everybody is the West's friend again, so long as they hate Russia? Even Islamic militants?

Apparently yes.

I have been pointing out that paradox a few times in this thread, Nobody seems to be listening. So I gave up.

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

Maybe they'll get it after ISAF Chechnya starts up.

[Atlantic Friend]

Maybe ther's some good to come out of it. An East-West confrontation - limited naturally - has the advantage of defusing the North-South confrontation. The one neither the US nor Russia nor Europe is keen on because it's not a variant of the Grand Game of Nation-States before.

When I was 14, there was the possibility that everything I knew could be vaporized because two big blocs would decide to see who could brach through ther Fulda Gap. I would lie if I didn't say I'd trade the current geopolitical for the one in the early 1980s in a second.

[DID]

I would. Russia killed upwards of 50,000 in Chechnya, its own little breakaway region. The Georgians killed maybe a few dozen with its rocket attacks on South Ossetia, that number is significantly less than what the Russians did in Chechnya. Russia had no right in invade Georgia because it has done the same as Georgia but on a much larger scale in Chechnya.

Yes but "Russia Strong!1!!" mantra allow them to do this.
Now Ossetian are "independant" and Chechny almost disapear...

[Kampfbaer]

When I was 14, there was the possibility that everything I knew could be vaporized because two big blocs would decide to see who could brach through ther Fulda Gap. I would lie if I didn't say I'd trade the current geopolitical for the one in the early 1980s in a second.

You are right the confrontation was somewhat more predictable back then but somehow the politicians on all sights back then seemed so much more capable than today....

[Thor]

China is said to hesitate regarding support of Russia's recognition of the Georigan provinces. A very strong reason being that such a move is sensitive for their own domestic political situation (Tibet et al).

[Adux]

China is said to hesitate regarding support of Russia's recognition of the Georigan provinces. A very strong reason being that such a move is sensitive for their own domestic political situation (Tibet et al).

Even India wont recognize both Kosovo and Ossetsia/Abkazia. No country with territorial problems will, you can include Turkey, Israel or anyone with that sort of internal problems. Kosovo and Osstesia/Abkazia are bad precedents, as long as we go by the concept of nationhood in this world.

[Adux]

China is the only country who is going to benefit from the current crisis.

[oldsoak]

When I was 14, there was the possibility that everything I knew could be vaporized because two big blocs would decide to see who could brach through ther Fulda Gap. I would lie if I didn't say I'd trade the current geopolitical for the one in the early 1980s in a second.

I agree - with one exception. Afghanistan. I would let the Russians have free reign. That would mean a far more manageable situation there when they left and no intial hiding place for OBL.

[Mordoror]

"West" needs a more proactive policy in order to halt Russia's lust for expansion. Should the free world support and openly plan to recognize Chechnya and other regions that want to break free from Russia?Are you driven mental by your blatant hate of everything that is russian ?? (sorry but reading yours posts through the forum make your statements clear)

do you really want a free unstable giant training camp for radical islamist fighters ?
Shall i remember to you that tchetchen fighters are not only a problem in russia itself in Tchetchenia and Daguestan but also in Georgia and more harshely in Astan

Recent intel infos show that there is more and more foreign fighters that return to make a little jihad in that country including Pakis, Arabs and Tchetchens
Yes fine give them a quiet haven for training and re arming and let them look how they kill evil ruskys
but after that don't cry a river when they spread and begin to kill Frenc/Dutch/Brit or US soldiers

[frenchy]

Should the nations recognize all separatists, minorities in the world ?
Should mexicans claim land lost in the 1846-1848 war with US ?

Or corsicans get independance ?

It's really a big mess those independant and claimed land stories.:|

[ren0312]

Should the nations recognize all separatists, minorities in the world ?
Should mexicans claim land lost in the 1846-1848 war with US ?

Or corsicans get independance ?

It's really a big mess those independant and claimed land stories.:|

So how soon until we get back Sabah?

[Lau]

So how soon until we get back Sabah?

Yea. And when will Greenland and large parts of Canada be returned to the Inuit people?

[ren0312]

Yea. And when will Greenland and large parts of Canada be returned to the Inuit people?

And when will Denmark get back Southern Sweden?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_dispute

Sabah dispute

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_dispute#column-one), search (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_dispute#searchInput)
[/URL]
The [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view"]neutrality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Unbalanced_scales.svg) of this article is disputed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV_dispute).
Please see the discussion on the talk page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sabah_dispute). (June 2008)
Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOVD#What_is_an_NPOV_dispute.3F)The status of the territory of Sabah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah), previously known as North Borneo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Borneo), is currently disputed between Malaysia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia) and the Philippines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines).[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] Presently, Sabah is one of the states that formed Malaysia in 1963 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963). Despite that, the Philippines and the heirs of the Sultanate of Sulu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultanate_of_Sulu) have made claims to the territory.
Contents

[hide (javascript:toggleToc())]
<LI class=toclevel-1>1 Lease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_dispute#Lease) <LI class=toclevel-1>2 Madrid Protocol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_dispute#Madrid_Protocol) <LI class=toclevel-1>3 Philippine Claim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_dispute#Philippine_Claim) <LI class=toclevel-1>4 Formation of Malaysia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_dispute#Formation_of_Malaysia) <LI class=toclevel-1>5 Further claim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_dispute#Further_claim) <LI class=toclevel-1>6 Developments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_dispute#Developments) <LI class=toclevel-1>7 References (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_dispute#References) <LI class=toclevel-1>8 See also (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_dispute#See_also)
9 References (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_dispute#References_2)

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sabah_dispute&action=edit&section=1)] Lease

On 23 January (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_23) 1878 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1878), in exchange for modern weapons with which to keep Spanish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain) colonizers away from the Sulu Archipelago, the ruler of Sulu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulu), Sultan Jamalul Alam (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sultan_Jamalul_Alam&action=edit&redlink=1), leased the territory of North Borneo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Borneo) to Gustavus von Overbeck, an Austrian who was then the Austro-Hungarian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Hungarian_Empire)'s consul-general in Hong Kong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong). This was accomplished via a trading company belonging to von Overbeck's British partner Alfred Dent (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alfred_Dent&action=edit&redlink=1), and later via the British North Borneo Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_North_Borneo_Company). Von Overbeck procured the necessary firearms and also paid the Muslim dignitary an annual sum equivalent to 5,000 Malaysian dollars (now known as ringgit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringgit)).
The key word in the agreement was "padjak," which has been translated by American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States), Dutch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) and Spanish linguists to mean "lease" or "arrendamiento." The agreement further states explicitly that the rights to the territory may not be transferred to a nation or another company without the sultan's express permission.

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sabah_dispute&action=edit&section=2)] Madrid Protocol

The Sulu Sultanate later came under the control of Spain in Manila. In 1885, Great Britain, Germany and Spain signed the Madrid Protocol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid_Protocol_of_1885) to cement Spanish influence over the islands of the Philippines. In the same agreement, Spain relinquished all claim to North Borneo which had belong to the Sultanate in the past.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_dispute#cite_note-0)

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sabah_dispute&action=edit&section=3)] Philippine Claim

In 1906 and in 1920, the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) formally reminded Great Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain) that North Borneo did not belong to the Crown and was still part of the Sultanate of Sulu. However, the British did turn Sabah into a Crown leased Colony. [1] (http://www.royalsulu.com/issues.htm)
The Philippine Constitution of 1941 states that the national territory of the Philippines included, among other things, "all other areas which belong to the Philippines on the basis of historical rights or legal claims." Malaysia was federated in 16 September (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_16) 1963 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963). Even before Sabah was incorporated into Malaysia, the Philippines sent delegations to London reminding the British Crown that Sabah belonged to the Philippines. [2] (http://www.nzz.ch/english/background/background2000/background0001/bg000122sabah.html)

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sabah_dispute&action=edit&section=4)] Formation of Malaysia

In the years immediately before the formation of Malaysia, two commissions of enquiry visited North Borneo (along with neighbouring Sarawak) in order to establish the state of public opinion there regarding merger with Malaya (and Singapore).
It is important to note that neither commission was mandated with addressing the legal status of North Borneo; neither were they 'referendums' in the proper sense.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] The first commission, usually known as the Cobbold Commission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobbold_Commission) was established by the Malayan and British governments and was headed by Lord Cobbold, along with two representatives of Malaya and Britain (but not either of the territories under investigation). The Commission found that 'About one third of the population of each territory [i.e. of North Borneo and of Sarawak] strongly favours early realisation of Malaysia without too much concern over terms and conditions. Another third, many of them favourable to the Malaysia project, ask, with varying degrees of emphasis, for conditions and safeguards... The remaining third is divided between those who insist upon independence before Malaysia is considered and those who would strongly prefer to see British rule continue for some years to come' [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_dispute#cite_note-1).
Indonesia and the Philippines rejected the findings of the Cobbold. In 1963, a tripartite meeting was held in Manila between Indonesian president Soekarno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soekarno), Philippines president Macapagal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macapagal) and Malayan Prime Minister Tunku Abdul Rahman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunku_Abdul_Rahman). The meeting agreed to petition the UN to send another commission of enquiry and the Philippines and Indonesia agreed to drop their objection to the formation of Malaysia if the new commission found popular opinion in the territories in favour. The UN Mission to Borneo was thus established, comprising members of the UN Secretariat from Argentina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina), Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil), Ceylon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceylon), Czechoslovakia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovakia), Ghana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana), Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan), Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan) and Jordan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan). The Mission's report, authored by UN Secretary-General (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Secretary-General) U Thant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_Thant) found ‘a sizeable majority of the people' in favour of joining Malaysia. Although Indonesia and the Philippines subsequently rejected the report's findings – and Indonesia continued its semi-military policy of konfrontasi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konfrontasi) towards Malaysia – the report in effect sealed the creation of Malaysia.

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sabah_dispute&action=edit&section=5)] Further claim

In 1939, a court judgment on the claim had handed ownership of North Borneo to the heirs of the Sultanate before the formation of Malaysian federation in 1963. The judgment of Chief Justice C.F.C. Makaskie of the High Court of North Borneo in the civil suit filed by the late Dayang Dayang Hadji Piandao and eight other heirs of the Sultan of Sulu, including the famous Putlih (Princess) Tarhata Kiram, upheld the validity of the claim of the heirs. [3] (http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/Philippines_Substates.htm)

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sabah_dispute&action=edit&section=6)] Developments

Sabah's position within Malaysia was reinforced by the ruling made by the International Court of Justice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice) for Pulau Sipadan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sipadan) and Pulau Ligitan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligitan) to remain under the jurisdiction and sovereignty of Malaysia rather than Indonesia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia). However, Malaysia continues to consistently reject Philippine calls to bring the matter of Sabah's jurisdiction to the ICJ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice).
Malaysia is still believed to be paying the annual rent to the Sultan of Sulu.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabah_dispute#cite_note-2)

[oldsoak]

So how soon until we get back Sabah?

- no chance. Sabah's inhabitants are quite happy being part of Malaysia. In any case, do you really want to create yet another place for the MNLFs to hide/recruit from ?

[oldsoak]

Yea. And when will Greenland and large parts of Canada be returned to the Inuit people?

When Adam gets back paradise.

[ren0312]

- no chance. Sabah's inhabitants are quite happy being part of Malaysia. In any case, do you really want to create yet another place for the MNLFs to hide/recruit from ?

You may have a point there I think.

[Lau]

When Adam gets back paradise.

And the day Eve is handing out blowjobs at your local supermarked, is the day the Indians get back all of America. :)

[ren0312]

And the day Eve is handing out blowjobs at your local supermarked, is the day the Indians get back all of America. :)

Sorry senor, me no comprende Ingles.

[Kazuma]

I suppose you live in Europe. The "West" in this case is primarily Europe. We're the ones in jeopardy here.

Why are you in jeopardy ? And what the Ru-Ge conflict has to do with Europe or "West" anyway ?
Because georgians wave EU flags ? :)))

Georgia is not West or Europe. It is ASIAN country in every aspect.
This is conflict between asians. Can't see what gets you involved unless you too whant to play Bush games like givin modern weapons to feudal natives.
Nothin good comes out of that.

[Meatwad]

Yea. And when will Greenland and large parts of Canada be returned to the Inuit people?

Only after we've taken Greenland from Denmark and depleted it of every natural resource and reshaped it to form 2 giant hockey sticks crossing eachother with Iceland making the puck.

[Lau]

Only after weve taken Greenland from Denmark and depleted it of every natural resource and reshaped it to form 2 giant hockey sticks crossing eachother with Iceland making the puck.

Neveeer!!! The Inuits will ram your imperial Canadian warships with kayaks and give you bloody noses wit icy snowballs!! Muhahaha... p-)

[Thor]

Are you driven mental by your blatant hate of everything that is russian ?? (sorry but reading yours posts through the forum make your statements clear)
Hating present and historic Russian aggression is very natural. Your "argument" is one commonly used by Russians here and it just goes to show that there is something lacking in their ability or willingness to understand their own country's actions.


do you really want a free unstable giant training camp for radical islamist fighters ?
Classifying a whole nation as being radical islamist is rather insulting, and that has not been the traditional character of their struggle. Just like the Russians have found plenty of moderates to work with so could the West.

We don't even have to take it all the way but rather just support several independence processes within the Russian Federation to give a certain leadership a sense of tit for tat, and challenge their sense of being able to act with impunity.

[Sergei]

"West" needs a more proactive policy in order to halt Russia's lust for expansion. Should the free world support and openly plan to recognize Chechnya and other regions that want to break free from Russia?

You should.
You should also get as much chechen refugees as possible.
In 15 years write to me back about your neighborhood experiences.

[Mordoror]

Hating present and historic Russian aggression is very natural.No it is not...
Hating is a feeling born from non cold headed reaction

a cold analysis of the situation would have told you that nothing is lalck or white and that nobody is innocent in the past or present history being russian, american or turko-moldavo-sicilian (no offense to anybody here)


Classifying a whole nation as being radical islamist is rather insulting, and that has not been the traditional character of their struggle.that was not the point of my post
may be in the first war the Chechen clanic organization was not infiltrated by radical islamism
but during the second war it was obvisously the case
and once they have stepped in one country they leave it very difficulty unless expelled by force
that was done and that's why some of them fought in Astan in 2003 in AlQaida's battle groups (being classified by the US as the most willing to fight and the most harsh to defeat)
now they are back in Astan which is bad enough and you want to give them a state where they can re-organize them, train and make some plots ?? hum it seems that the taliban era Afghanistan precedent is not enough as an example for you


Just like the Russians have found plenty of moderates to work with so could the West.yep, unfortunately for your analysis those moderate are now pro-russians
the only that are anti-russians are fondamentalist extremists, those our soldiers have to fight both in Irak/Astan

[oldsoak]

You may have a point there I think.

Admit it, the only reason that the Phillipines wants Sabah is to re-settle the all the pro MNLF factions there and then give it back to Malaysia ! :-P
Crafty philipinas ! :lol:

[frenchy]

I took my own independance last year leaving my parent's home.rofl

[STEPAN1983]

http://s45.radikal.ru/i108/0808/bf/f0b242eca4ac.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)
"nam pohuy" = "we dont give a f**k"