Role of Marines in event of Cold war gone Hot

[khalifah]

Evening everyone,

as the title suggests, what role did the Marines of NATO contries play in the event of Soviet aggression into western europe?

yes I went googling for the answer and all I found was just stuff about post-cold war and pre-cold war

[LaoSexMachine]

Fight .

[Ratamacue]

Different nations' Marine forces have different training, equipment, and missions. I wouldn't expect the Royal Marines and US Marines to necessarily be executing the same operations in a conventional war. But Ezekiel summed it up in a way about as true as elegant as one possibly can.

[jm2222]

Guarding nato's northern flank. With central europe being mostly an armored conflict, the marines were to be used to guard Norway. I think they still train there a lot, I've seen a lot of photos of them there training for winter combat.

[gaijinsamurai]

You are correct jm2222. I was attached to 2nd Marine Division (8th Engineers, 2nd FSSG), and our role was supposed to have been to secure NATO's northern flank, in Norway.

[khalifah]

I have no doubt about Ezekiels answer, but what I'm looking for are things like operations, plans, training and the like.

BTW I brought this topic up because I havn't seen it discussed in depth like other topics concerning the cold war

[RoyalScot87]

The british forces do training in Norway all the time The Army and Royal marines. The Royal Marines have teams which specialize in winter warefare if i remember correctly. Mountain leaders course or something it's called. They do the training in Norway all the time.

[Hellfish]

Yeah, a bunch of light units - marines, mountain, airmobile, etc. - were slated to go to Norway. The US had the 8th Marine Expeditionary Brigade with a POMCUS set in Norway, the Dutch and UK Royal Marines were slated to go there too, as well as a French mountain battalion, an Italian airmobile battalion (or was it Bersaglieri?).

I guess it would ultimately depend on the requirements at the time. Is the Soviets didn't make a push on Norway, those forces might not go there.

[KB]

I have no doubt about Ezekiels answer, but what I'm looking for are things like operations, plans, training and the like.

BTW I brought this topic up because I havn't seen it discussed in depth like other topics concerning the cold war

US Marines were tasked to reinforce NATO forces holding northern Norway and Denmark, helping to impede Soviet naval forces from entering the Atlantic. US Marines trained annually in Norway starting in the early '80s, together with the Royal Marines, Royal Dutch Marines, and Norwegian Army.

Exercises like "Northern Wedding/Bold Guard" and "Team Spirit" were conducted annually (usually in the fall).

US Marines also exercised frequently in the Mediterranean, typically in Turkey called "Display Determination", again reinforcing NATO forces around key choke points impeding Soviet ability to transit the Bosporus.

[Power_serj]

I learned something new today. I never knew there was a strategic plan opened to the public in the case of a hot war with the Soviet Union. I guess it came to light in the 90s?

[Winger]

You are correct jm2222. I was attached to 2nd Marine Division (8th Engineers, 2nd FSSG), and our role was supposed to have been to secure NATO's northern flank, in Norway.

Bringing back bad memories. I was there for most of a February and half of March for CWT. It blew ass chunks.

[Hellfish]

Exercises like "Northern Wedding/Bold Guard" and "Team Spirit" were conducted annually (usually in the fall).





Wasn't "Team Spirit" in Korea?

[gaijinsamurai]

Yeah, Team Spirit was the name of the annual Spring excercises that the US-ROK forces would do. I was in Team Spirit '90.

For some reason, I never had to go to the excercises in Norway. If I remember correctly, we almost went one year in the late '80s, but last minute changes cancelled it. I didn't mind, as I tend to be a wuss in cold weather stuff!

[KB]

Wasn't "Team Spirit" in Korea?

Sh*t, your right. There was "Northern Wedding/Bold Guard" and in the off years it was called something else. Took place during the Reforger exercises every fall.

[Gunge]

the USMC had a MEB set of gear pre-positioned in a huge cave complex
in Norway, wonder if its still there?

[Hellfish]

I think they pulled it. '98, I wanna say?

[PanzerMaster]

Evening everyone,

as the title suggests, what role did the Marines of NATO contries play in the event of Soviet aggression into western europe?

yes I went googling for the answer and all I found was just stuff about post-cold war and pre-cold war

In Italy we have 2 formation capable of heli + amphibious or semi-amphibious operations

Rgt (now Bn?) Lagunari: Army formation for the defense of the Laguna of Venice against Yugoslavia or East threats during Cold War

Rtg (now Bn?) San Marco: Navy formation, mobile and true "marines" in concept, based in the South (that is, near Albania, south Adriatic and Greece). I don't know the mission against Soviet invasion, but with mobility assured by Landing Ships ferrying helis, Landing crafts, LVTP7 and hovercraft, you have plenty of operational and strategical choice.

[SrB-23Q]

Role: sit there and fry like the rest of us ;-)

[wiking]

the USMC had a MEB set of gear pre-positioned in a huge cave complex
in Norway, wonder if its still there?


I think alot of the kit is still here, but some was removed as late as the invasion of Iraq to be used there. And it's also simpler to keep stuff like Humvees in Norway than transporting them here once a year (not sure about it though)

[DesktopArmor]

I think alot of the kit is still here, but some was removed as late as the invasion of Iraq to be used there. And it's also simpler to keep stuff like Humvees in Norway than transporting them here once a year (not sure about it though)

I may be wrong, but I think the US intends to store the MRAPs in Norway once the current conflicts are over.

[Lancero]

Exercises like "Northern Wedding/Bold Guard" and (...)

In Norway there were held most "Adventure Express" FTX.

[RSone]

IIRC the RMC and the RNLMC were meant to execute raiding operations in Scandinavia and the Arctic(i.e. NATO's northern flank) if the Soviets ever would invade. This is probably the origin of the UK/NL landing force as well.

[Maj C]

the USMC had a MEB set of gear pre-positioned in a huge cave complex
in Norway, wonder if its still there?


It's still there. Formerly known as NALMEB (Norway Air Landed Marine Expeditionary Brigade) now known as MCPP-N (Marine Corps Pre-positioned - Norway). There was a move to take it away but is a huge political deal since Norwegians are contracted to maintain the gear etc so can't take those jobs away. We use it for global sourcing of gear needed in Europe, Africa, SWA. MPF can be too slow and strat lift is under too much demand.

[USMCRTop]

Man I went there in January- ddin't see any fall weather at all- there was just a tremendous amount of gear- what I rember most was this giant white tarpaulin that stretched across the cave ceiling so dripping ground water wouldn't fall on any equipment- a giant tent inside a giant cave

[KB]

It's still there. Formerly known as NALMEB (Norway Air Landed Marine Expeditionary Brigade) now known as MCPP-N (Marine Corps Pre-positioned - Norway). There was a move to take it away but is a huge political deal since Norwegians are contracted to maintain the gear etc so can't take those jobs away. We use it for global sourcing of gear needed in Europe, Africa, SWA. MPF can be too slow and strat lift is under too much demand.

Saw on the news where they shipped a bunch of cots to aid the Georgian refugees, using the stockpiles in Norway.

[HollywoodMarine]

... what role did the Marines of NATO contries play in the event of Soviet aggression into western europe?
In the event of any enemy aggression, our mission as United States Marines is locating, closing with, and destroying the enemy by fire and maneuver and repelling the enemy's assault with fire and close combat.

[khalifah]

So, from what I gather here is that Marines stationed along the norther flank of NATO lines were to attack eastward in a kind of (for lack of a better word) counter-offensive?

am I correct in this synopsis?

if so, what kind of opposition would the Marines be facing? would they be facing mechanized infantry, armor, border guards...?

[Hellfish]

IIRC the Soviets had something like 5 motor rifle divisions based in Karelia, mostly with T-55s, T-62s and MT-LBs, though there were a couple MRDs in the Leningrad Military District with BMPs and T-72s. Initially the guys in Norway would have probably fought Soviet naval infantry and airborne forces, followed by the MRDs coming out of the north.

[domokun]

So, from what I gather here is that Marines stationed along the norther flank of NATO lines were to attack eastward in a kind of (for lack of a better word) counter-offensive?

am I correct in this synopsis?

if so, what kind of opposition would the Marines be facing? would they be facing mechanized infantry, armor, border guards...?

As far as I know your synopsis is correct. Soviet Northern navy's main bases are quite close to Norway on Kola peninsula.

Resistance would include mostly Soviet naval infantry, VDV airborne troops, Spetsnaz and light infantry. Mechanized support would be quite light compared to other fronts in war, due to fact terrain isn't exactly best for mechanized warfare.

[Jaeger07]

As far as I know your synopsis is correct. Soviet Northern navy's main bases are quite close to Norway on Kola peninsula.

Resistance would include mostly Soviet naval infantry, VDV airborne troops, Spetsnaz and light infantry. Mechanized support would be quite light compared to other fronts in war, due to fact terrain isn't exactly best for mechanized warfare.

Mechanized units did pose a major threat also in the north.


I have spent time in these areas, and after seeing the land-bases the ruskies have in the Pechenga walley not far from the norwegian border i can say that the hardware stashed up there is substantial.


BUT: like all russian equipment its now old and in bad condition. On the height of the cold war it would have been very different though.

[Hellfish]

If you guys are interested, look for the book The War That Never Was. It has a lot of detail on a hypothetical NATO-Pact war in '90-'91, with significant portions dealing with Norway. It's worth a read and will give you a good idea of the kinds of fighting that could have been expected there.

http://www.amazon.com/War-That-Never-Was/dp/0743474511

[MichaelF]

In the event of a mobilization prior to actual hostilities (as in a non-"out of the barracks" offensive), the Soviet strength in the North would have been substantially greater (as it would be everywhere else).

[ejlee7829]

The USMCR was part of a training operation in Norway called "Battle Griffin."

[khalifah]

As far as I know your synopsis is correct. Soviet Northern navy's main bases are quite close to Norway on Kola peninsula.

Resistance would include mostly Soviet naval infantry, VDV airborne troops, Spetsnaz and light infantry. Mechanized support would be quite light compared to other fronts in war, due to fact terrain isn't exactly best for mechanized warfare.

very well, if Marines were to perform a counter-offensive then what would the objective be?

simply provide a second front to relieve the pressure on central europe, or what?

[HollywoodMarine]

very well, if Marines were to perform a counter-offensive then what would the objective be?
<Pfft!> Get them out of Norway, and kill as many as we could.

simply provide a second front to relieve the pressure on central europe, or what?
Like Sh-yea!

[domokun]

very well, if Marines were to perform a counter-offensive then what would the objective be?

simply provide a second front to relieve the pressure on central europe, or what?

Not as such, Norway could considered as secondary front while compared central Europe. To my view as mostly armchair general, still with little more than average knowledge over strategic issues. NATO's main goal would have been defense of Norway, secondary objective could have been Soviet naval bases on Kola-peninsula, they still would have been valuable target as all of subs wouldn't have left for sea.


Mechanized units did pose a major threat also in the north.

I have spent time in these areas, and after seeing the land-bases the ruskies have in the Pechenga walley not far from the norwegian border i can say that the hardware stashed up there is substantial.

BUT: like all russian equipment its now old and in bad condition. On the height of the cold war it would have been very different though.

I'll take back that comment over light inf. most those units in Soviet war machine were upgraded to motorized rifle status, but I still assume that units Norwegian front would have been less armour based than units on central Europe due to terrain. Lot of Soviet AFV's (BMP's, BTR's...) were amphibious, and that would have been very useful in Norwegian coast.


<Pfft!> Get them out of Norway, and kill as many as we could.

Like Sh-yea!

Good opinion, you really sound like a Marine. (this isn't cynical comment with loaded sarcasm, just an observation... no offense meant.)

Still before Lokos notes this thread and enlightens us, with fact that lots of tactical nukes would have been deployed on 1st day of operations. That fact can turn all of our reasoning useless. But I'm still waiting what Lokos will say, he can be regarded as one of/(just) most of informed member(s) of this board over cold war issues.

[JRT]

The units in Kola were (are) often equipped with the MT-LBV, capable of movin in heavy snow and is also amphibious. The motor rifle units there have quite a decent manoeuvrability over the difficult terrain / climate circumstances of the arctic.

Nowadays there's not much more left than the 200th separate MRB in Pechenga, if talking about regular Leningrad MD units. I would imagine it is possible to grow the 200th into a full division if needed.