Senator defends burying alive of women

[sikh_warrior]

Senator defends burying alive of women.

ISLAMABAD: Balochistan Senator Sardar Israrullah Zehri stunned the upper house on Friday when he defended the recent incident of burying alive three teenage girls and two women in his province, saying it was part of ‘our tribal custom.’

Senator Bibi Yasmin Shah of the PML-Q raised the issue citing a newspaper report that the girls, three of them aged between 16 and 18 years, had been buried alive a month ago for wishing to marry of their own will.


The incident took place in a remote village of Jafarabad district anda PPP minister and some other influential people were reported to have been involved. The report accused the provincial government of trying to hush up theissue.

Ms Shah said that the hapless girls and the women were first shot in the name of honour and then buried while they were alive. She also said that no criminal had been arrested so far.


Acting Chairman of Senate Jan Mohammad Jamali, who was presiding over the session, said: ‘Yasmin Shah should go to our society and see for herself what the situation is like there and then come back to raise such questions in the house.’

Maulana Ghafoor Haideri of the JUI-F said there was no tradition of burying women alive in Baloch society because it was against the teachings of Islam.

Jamal Leghari of PML-Q emphatically stated that there was no custom of burying people alive, adding that the Baloch people did not believe in it.

Senator Jan Jamali commented: ‘This is a provincial matter and it is being investigated at the provincial level and let us wait for the report of the investigation.’ Leader of the Opposition Kamil Ali Agha accused the Balochistan government ofignoring the incident and said no jirga could order the burying of women alive and no law allowed anyone to commit such a crime and go unpunished. He urged the government to punish the people involved in it.

Leader of the House Mian Raza Rabbani said: ‘We condemn the heinous act and assure the house that a complete report on the incident would be submitted on Monday.’

http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/Dawn%20Content%20Library/dawn/news/pakistan/senator+defends+burying+alive+of+women+wishing+to+marry+of+their+own+will

[Doublethinker]

Christ...

Another proof to those who think that 'all religions are equal'.

Islam works to create a militarily united group of people, leaving a huge bulk of emptiness in morality, supposed to be filled with Adat, customs and traditions, which christianity on the contrary tried to uproot to achieve single and unified morality for all men.

[Linedoggie]

SAVAGES! Who goes around burying Women alive in the name of Honor, and then has the unmitigated gall to call it a "Custom"?

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

I've spoken about this with some more liberal people, they've all labeled me an idiotic bigot :cantbeli:


Anyway, this is just sick ****.

[Doublethinker]

I've spoken about this with some more liberal people, they've all labeled me an idiotic bigot :cantbeli:


Anyway, this is just sick ****.

more like some western pseudointellectual commie filth that likes to think of themselves as liberal and tolerant because of amazing ability to constantly look the other away,

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

But they never look the other way when the country is America or some Western European nation. If they were really as "tolerant" as they say they'd be able to do that too, but I have a better word for it: assholes.

[LazyLob]

Where's that "connard" SurvivoR with his equivalence bullshyte?

[khukuri]

Another proof to those who think that 'all religions are equal'.

Islam works


Youre talking shyte out of your ignorant arrse. It is very apparent, if you read the article at all that

1: Most of the pakistanis are just as shocked as you and me

and

2: That it is a local tribal/ethnical thing rather than Muslim.

[Doublethinker]

the main message that really seems to be prevalent in Islam - do as you see fit in domestical and moral issues, as long as you jump on the bandwagon with us on political and military issues.

Its always about the war against Dar al Harb...

[Doublethinker]

Youre talking shyte out of your ignorant arrse. It is very apparent, if you read the article at all that

1: Most of the pakistanis are just as shocked as you and me

and

2: That it is a local tribal/ethnical thing rather than Muslim.

your own ass seems tp have interferred with your reading.

I never said it was muslim custom, I said Islam leaves space for ADAT, tribal customs, in its system of morality, that's why such idiotic things impossible in Christianity are not just possible in theory but truly happen in Islam from time to time.

And I'm sure the guy really doesn't understand why he's being blamed since Islam doesn't have a single position on what to do when Adat goes against Sharia.

[Kilgor]

more like some western pseudointellectual commie filth that likes to think of themselves as liberal and tolerant because of amazing ability to constantly look the other away,

sometimes you are right

X 2

[The Balkan]

This is the most idiotic tribe ever then lolz

[Ulytau]

I prefer buryin him alive..

Slowly will be nicer.

[Adux]

Most of Pakistani's may be shocked by this, but they are not shocked by stoning someone to death.

[Doublethinker]

This is the most idiotic tribe ever then lolz

lol, short and on the spot :)

[Calanen]

Youre talking shyte out of your ignorant arrse. It is very apparent, if you read the article at all that

1: Most of the pakistanis are just as shocked as you and me

and

2: That it is a local tribal/ethnical thing rather than Muslim.

Really. What about the Hadd offences under Sharia, which require that women be buried up to their necks and have rocks thrown at their heads, like for adultery? Nothing 'tribal' about that. It's just sharia.

[Bia]

Buried alive... but shot first... but alive when buried.
Hmmmmm
So.... they shoot them in the toe, wrist, elbow? How's this work actually?
As far as we know...this could all be totaly made up BS. Just because a "web site" says something... doesnt make it so.

[Fireball Sanchez]

No, you can be shot multiple times and still live. When I was training for my EMT stuff and was working at the hospital, there was this guy who was shot 5-6 times in the neighborhood around the hospital and was being chased by the guy who shot him. We were standing outside smoking a cigarette and this guy walks up, covered in blood and says " I'm shot..." Smoke break ended.....

[name already taken]

Buried alive... but shot first... but alive when buried.
Hmmmmm
So.... they shoot them in the toe, wrist, elbow? How's this work actually?
As far as we know...this could all be totaly made up BS. Just because a "web site" says something... doesnt make it so.
Hmmmm.........

I wouldn't look at this with a western logic mind. This could well be seen as one of the mysteries no one can question in Pakistan's tribal area. Like an act of God no one can understand. Which is proof God exists for example.

Remember that going to your own death flying planes into buildings is not something understandable in our western culture. But it did happen.

No doubt this attracts attention and this is what the perpetrators are looking for.

[Mortuus Piscis]

Really. What about the Hadd offences under Sharia, which require that women be buried up to their necks and have rocks thrown at their heads, like for adultery? Nothing 'tribal' about that. It's just sharia.

There is no doubt the people doing this stuff are idiots of the worst kind, but I don't like how people make it out to be so black and white. Other Religions also have similar set of laws in their scriptures. If you look in the Bible Leviticus has a big list of things people should be stoned for, including adultery. I think the main difference comes down to the peoples willingness to continue enforcing these rules as they become outdated. Just like Christians the average Muslim grew out of that ****. Its the extremist idiots still doing it.

I usually just read here and don't post much, but You always make it seem as if every Muslim is a member of the Taliban, and are unable to move beyond outdated scripture like Christians were.

[Eokboy]

your own ass seems tp have interferred with your reading.

I never said it was muslim custom, I said Islam leaves space for ADAT, tribal customs, in its system of morality, that's why such idiotic things impossible in Christianity are not just possible in theory but truly happen in Islam from time to time.

And I'm sure the guy really doesn't understand why he's being blamed since Islam doesn't have a single position on what to do when Adat goes against Sharia.

Mighty wide brush there. Over here, about the only 'adat' retained post Islam is our costume and martial arts. Black magic and anything else that goes against Islam is disposed of. Good too, the witchcraft was really vicious.

[Bia]

No, you can be shot multiple times and still live. When I was training for my EMT stuff and was working at the hospital, there was this guy who was shot 5-6 times in the neighborhood around the hospital and was being chased by the guy who shot him. We were standing outside smoking a cigarette and this guy walks up, covered in blood and says " I'm shot..." Smoke break ended.....
Yes Captain obvious... I realize this and you totaly missed the point of my comment.

[PanzerMaster]

Speechless, those cultures need to be destroyed. Some millions of brutish savages will not be missed by this world.

[name already taken]

Speechless, those cultures need to be destroyed. Some millions of brutish savages will not be missed by this world.
There was this girl, Sharbat Gula, photographed by a National Geographic Magazine photographer, when she was about 13 years old:

[/URL]

then, here's what she looked 17 years later when she was 30:

[URL="http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2002/04/afghan-girl/index-text"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharbat_Gula)

Living condititions are very harsh there and I am wondering if these people could be replaced by even worse than themselves if they would be destroyed by some evil cataclysm.

[DS73]

I usually just read here and don't post much, but You always make it seem as if every Muslim is a member of the Taliban, and are unable to move beyond outdated scripture like Christians were.
Is it really? It is just maybe, that the majority of critical posts on this forum are not about muslims in general, but about fundamentalists who fight for Sharia.
Calanen's post is definitely one of this majority.

[budgie]

Christ...

Another proof to those who think that 'all religions are equal'.

Islam works to create a militarily united group of people, leaving a huge bulk of emptiness in morality, supposed to be filled with Adat, customs and traditions, which christianity on the contrary tried to uproot to achieve single and unified morality for all men.



Balochistan Senator Sardar Israrullah Zehri stunned the upper house on Friday when he defended the recent incident of burying alive three teenage girls and two women in his province, saying it was part of ‘our tribal custom.’

No mention of religion there.

[Mortuus Piscis]

Is it really? It is just maybe, that the majority of critical posts on this forum are not about muslims in general, but about fundamentalists who fight for Sharia.
Calanen's post is definitely one of this majority.

I don't see it that way, look what he was responding to. Someone said people in Pakistan are as shocked as we are and this was a stupid tribal thing. Then Calanen says really? and starts talking about Muslim laws concerning stoning....in a thread about people being buried alive...i read alot of his posts here, i even had one member tell me privatly not to bother with him, they claimed he is writing some type of anti muslim book lol

truth is stoning people to death in Pakistan is rare these days, their most common form of capital punishment is hanging, so its not a reach to say people in pakistan are shocked to see stoning, much less people being buried alive which is what this thread is about

[Calanen]

Other Religions also have similar set of laws in their scriptures. If you look in the Bible Leviticus has a big list of things people should be stoned for, including adultery.


So what? Where is the Christian fundamentalist state that enforces these things. Why does the problem of barbaric sharia always come down to 'Well the Bible says the same thing so NER!' Sharia has sovereign states that enforce and/or turn the blind eye to these sentences, and that is what makes it such a worrying issue. The fact that there are disturbing phrases in the Bible, Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, or any other book is pointless in this context.



I usually just read here and don't post much, but You always make it seem as if every Muslim is a member of the Taliban, and are unable to move beyond outdated scripture like Christians were.



I've never said that or anything like it, but that is what Islamic Jihadi Apologists would like me to say - its a far easier argument to win.

[Mortuus Piscis]

So what? Where is the Christian fundamentalist state that enforces these things. Why does the problem of barbaric sharia always come down to 'Well the Bible says the same thing so NER!' Sharia has sovereign states that enforce and/or turn the blind eye to these sentences, and that is what makes it such a worrying issue. The fact that there are disturbing phrases in the Bible, Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, or any other book is pointless in this context.



I've never said that or anything like it, but that is what Islamic Jihadi Apologists would like me to say - its a far easier argument to win.

and your post about stoning people in response to people being buried alive is some how in context?

again in Pakistan their main form of capital punishment is to hang people not stone or bury them, so its not a reach to say people were shocked to see someone buried alive.

Why are you so fast to question the guy saying people in Pakistan were shocked to? For you to think the average everyday Muslims isn't shocked by something like this must mean something.

[name already taken]

and your post about stoning people in response to people being buried alive is some how in context?
It's not ?

[PeterG]

...citing a newspaper report that the girls, three of them aged between 16 and 18 years, had been buried alive a month ago for wishing to marry of their own will.


F**ing savages..! Words can hardly describe the hate and utter disgust i feel at these filthy animals. 'Cultural sensitivity' my ass. And to think we're actually allowing this spiritual and cultural Ebola virus to infiltrate our own societies.

[The Balkan]

So what? Where is the Christian fundamentalist state that enforces these things. Why does the problem of barbaric sharia always come down to 'Well the Bible says the same thing so NER!' Sharia has sovereign states that enforce and/or turn the blind eye to these sentences, and that is what makes it such a worrying issue. The fact that there are disturbing phrases in the Bible, Mein Kampf, Das Kapital, or any other book is pointless in this context.



So we all know this burying alive thing isn't religious. It's their cultural tribal thing. They'd be doing it regardless. The other Muslims don't do it, I've never even heard of it before.

As for the other punishments which are Islamic and Christian like stoning, yes, you have a point no "Christian state" is claiming to be upholding these in the world today. You are right there. I'm sure there IS stonings in countries with Christians, in fact I'm positive there is. And those are probly lesser developed countries right?

That also itself shows that the problem isn't the religion but the people doing it. That's why people bring up the "It's a Christian thing too" argument, because you don't seem to be blaming the people who do it, but the religion itself.


As for burying alive being their culture, they're just idiots. What else can be said? it's worthless culture then.

[Mortuus Piscis]

It's not ?

no its not, for the reason I gave in the rest of the post your quoted.

Calanen made it seem as if people cant be shocked by this because a old book of laws says to stone people, even though in Pakistan being stoned or buried isn't Common practice.

So obviously when it does happen people are going to be shocked by it, just like Christians would be shocked if they seen someone stoned to death even though it is in the bible.

When someone says "people of Pakistan are shocked too" and Calanen comes in and questions that it doesnt raise any eyebrows? what kind of people does he think they are? The people who did this are sick, but to say the average Pakistan person isnt bothered by this is ridiculous

even the actual article says people are upset over it and demanding the people who did it be punished

[Mortuus Piscis]

So we all know this burying alive thing isn't religious. It's their cultural tribal thing. They'd be doing it regardless. The other Muslims don't do it, I've never even heard of it before.

As for the other punishments which are Islamic and Christian like stoning, yes, you have a point no "Christian state" is claiming to be upholding these in the world today. You are right there. I'm sure there IS stonings in countries with Christians, in fact I'm positive there is. And those are probly lesser developed countries right?

That also itself shows that the problem isn't the religion but the people doing it. That's why people bring up the "It's a Christian thing too" argument, because you don't seem to be blaming the people who do it, but the religion itself.


As for burying alive being their culture, they're just idiots. What else can be said? it's worthless culture then.

yea exactly, that's why i don't get why he would even bring up stoning and islam when talking about someone buried alive.

[Mortuus Piscis]

F**ing savages..! Words can hardly describe the hate and utter disgust i feel at these filthy animals. 'Cultural sensitivity' my ass. And to think we're actually allowing this spiritual and cultural Ebola virus to infiltrate our own societies.

You really think this specific tribe that this culture is unique to is the one spreading around the world?

I agree **** the people who do this stuff, but lets not generalize here

[Adux]

Tribal and Islamic cultures have mixed with each other, and in most cases it is hard to differentiate if one came from the other or not.

Hindu's used to make the Wife jump into dead husband's pyre 'sati'(It was never in Hinduism, but it came into being, when Islamic invaders started invading and raping women, So it was better to jump into the husband's pyre), It continued even after Islamic invasion were thwarted. The Indian Government, and even the British Raj stopped the practice(Religious sensitivity went for a toss, as it should), After 1947 anyone who practiced it will be jailed, So anyone who encouraged a woman, especially immediate relatives would be jailed.

That is REFORM, It doesnt matter wether it is a Tribal, Cultural or Religious, If it is inhuman then it should be thrown out. Islam has to reform. Most other religions have. Its time for them.

[Adux]

You really think this specific tribe that this culture is unique to is the one spreading around the world?

I agree **** the people who do this stuff, but lets not generalize here

Islamic Culture has Beoudin Arab Culture embedded in them.

[Calanen]

Calanen made it seem as if people cant be shocked by this because a old book of laws says to stone people, even though in Pakistan being stoned or buried isn't Common practice.

The Koran and the Hadith are just old books huh? I think it would be you who got stoned to death if you said this.

It is part of Islamic law in a number of places, enforced by the State. Nigiera, Saudi Arabia, Iran, UAE. That's not wacky tribal custom - that is the LAW in those places, enforced by courts, police and statute. And it is Islamic law.

Everyone loves speaking for me. I didnt even use the word shocked. As it happens, I doubt too many people were shocked in Pakistan, given that is what Sharia law provides for.

We seriously deserve to be overtaken by jihadi Islam if the best we can come up with is this constant moronic 'oh but christianity is just as bad'. It is a lame argument on so many levels.

[Mortuus Piscis]

Islamic Culture has Beoudin Arab Culture embedded in them.

Beoudins have a bunch of different tribes all around the world, right now we are talking about one specific tribe that has its unique practices.

Its not hard to differentiate at all which muslims practice burying people alive and which ones dont. specially when this article clearly states its a tribal thing, and the other muslims in the country are upset about it.

[Mortuus Piscis]

The Koran and the Hadith are just old books huh? I think it would be you who got stoned to death if you said this.

It is part of Islamic law in a number of places, enforced by the State. Nigiera, Saudi Arabia, Iran, UAE. That's not wacky tribal custom - that is the LAW in those places, enforced by courts, police and statute. And it is Islamic law.

Everyone loves speaking for me. I didnt even use the word shocked. As it happens, I doubt too many people were shocked in Pakistan, given that is what Sharia law provides for.

We seriously deserve to be overtaken by jihadi Islam if the best we can come up with is this constant moronic 'oh but christianity is just as bad'. It is a lame argument on so many levels.

In the same way Christians pick and choose which parts of the bible are still acceptable in todays world, so do most rational muslims. Thats what I meant by the the "old book" comment. Most rational people realize when something in a scripture is old and outdated, but you obviously have a problem separating normal every day muslims and extremists.

And again I dont get why you even bring up stoning people and islam when you see someone buried alive.

and no you didnt use the word shocked, but you did question someone who did.

.....why am i even responding to you after i got good advice not to bother with you, i think im going to take that advice and not bother talking to you on this subject anymore, its true what i was told.

[The Balkan]

Tribal and Islamic cultures have mixed with each other, and in most cases it is hard to differentiate if one came from the other or not.

Islam has to reform. Most other religions have. Its time for them.

every religion has mingled with tribal cultural stuff. in bosnia we still have traditions that go back to the pagans before christianity and islam. people still tattoo their hands which is an illyrian tradition long before christ existed. it's all mixed together. a kind of "folk" christianity and islam.

but i agree 100% with the reform statement. all religons are still taken to the "extreme" and 100% literal in some places....but islam is the only one that does it to this extent. they are most...."devout" i guess you could say.


Basicly we have to admit that even those of us who love our fiath (whatever it is), we know some of it is oudated fantastical bullcrap and we mostly stick to the stuff that's convinient or "normal". Middle East Muslims have to do the same. Places like Turkey and Jordan for the most part are very "normal". Places like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan? Not so much. India too. LMAO in fact India has some of the wierdest cults ANYWHERE. Cannibals and ****. There is a reason Muslims in Albania or Bosnia aren't doing what Muslims in Arabia are. It's not part of Albanian culture, regardless if theyre Muslims. In places like Arabia, it's their religion PLUS their wacky cultural traditions.


It's funny all these people trying to convince US of what we are. I and everyone in my family has never done anything remotley extreme or radical when it comes to religion.

Only for our dear motherland which is nationalism :)

[Doublethinker]

Mighty wide brush there. Over here, about the only 'adat' retained post Islam is our costume and martial arts. Black magic and anything else that goes against Islam is disposed of. Good too, the witchcraft was really vicious.

Sure, not saying it happens everywhere. Just saying Islam doesn't forbid it and it all bogs down to each tribe having its own interpretatin of what can be made of Islam and its laws.

[Doublethinker]

So we all know this burying alive thing isn't religious. It's their cultural tribal thing. They'd be doing it regardless. The other Muslims don't do it, I've never even heard of it before.


And as said multiple times before, its their religion that allows this tribal thing to be dragged into modern world and into their concept of morality.



As for the other punishments which are Islamic and Christian like stoning, yes, you have a point no "Christian state" is claiming to be upholding these in the world today. You are right there. I'm sure there IS stonings in countries with Christians, in fact I'm positive there is. And those are probly lesser developed countries right?

Too bad there are no recorded incidents of 'christian stoning' and you are pulling this out of your ass, simply because you have no idea what christianity is about.

First and foremost its 10 commandments.

Leviticus is Old Testament.



That also itself shows that the problem isn't the religion but the people doing it. That's why people bring up the "It's a Christian thing too" argument, because you don't seem to be blaming the people who do it, but the religion itself.


People bring up 'its a christian thing too' because they are uncomfortable seeing such **** happening in a religion that also infiltrates their own countries, so they kinda have to come up with 'it can't be so bad' to feel more secure.

[IDF_TANKER]

There was this girl, Sharbat Gula, photographed by a National Geographic Magazine photographer, when she was about 13 years old:

[/URL]

then, here's what she looked 17 years later when she was 30:

[URL="http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2002/04/afghan-girl/index-text"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharbat_Gula)

Living condititions are very harsh there and I am wondering if these people could be replaced by even worse than themselves if they would be destroyed by some evil cataclysm.

These pictures could be a perfect illustration for Frank Herbert's Dune.

[Adux]

Balkan,

I am not Christain, And I agree Christainity at one point of time was worse than Islam. But, the difference where they are NOW.

Ofcourse India have some wierd Cultures in them, the difference is the STATE and PEOPLE in General have stopped their practice and made it unlawful. That is the difference. While in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan stonning still take place in full LEGALITY.

PS: We follow the British Legal System.

[Jana]

Islamic Culture has Beoudin Arab Culture embedded in them.

What a hypocrate you are. Islamic culture dosnt have Bedoin Arab Culture at all.

And for you kind information it was in pre-Islamic Arab society when Hindus used to burry their daughter alive.
The custom stil exists in India today but indeed now in a modern way.

[Jana]

So we all know this burying alive thing isn't religious. It's their cultural tribal thing. They'd be doing it regardless. The other Muslims don't do it, I've never even heard of it before.


As for burying alive being their culture, they're just idiots. What else can be said? it's worthless culture then.
NO my dear it is not even a culture or custom at all.

No Baloch burry his daughter if she does anything which he thinks is wrong.

This is purely a political case wherein the Brother of a Federal Minister of PPP Government is involve hence they are trying to give it color of cultur and custom which is not even prevailent there among Balochs.

Its is the cures which feudals carry on.
It has nothing to with religion

[Jana]

The Koran and the Hadith are just old books huh? I think it would be you who got stoned to death if you said this.

It is part of Islamic law in a number of places, enforced by the State. Nigiera, Saudi Arabia, Iran, UAE. That's not wacky tribal custom - that is the LAW in those places, enforced by courts, police and statute. And it is Islamic law.

Everyone loves speaking for me. I didnt even use the word shocked. As it happens, I doubt too many people were shocked in Pakistan, given that is what Sharia law provides for.

We seriously deserve to be overtaken by jihadi Islam if the best we can come up with is this constant moronic 'oh but christianity is just as bad'. It is a lame argument on so many levels.

:) i think u need to study Islam before misinterpreting by terming this political incident linking it with Islam.

But anyway we are not surprised when few non-Muslims misinterpret things about Islam (There are learned non-Muslima who go for explaining things witout any biase and that is the best way to see things).

[Calanen]

Its is the cures which feudals carry on.
It has nothing to with religion

Except that burying women up to their necks and stoning them to death is permitted under Sharia law for adultery, and is on the statute books in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE, Nigeria and Pakistan. Pakistan sentenced a woman to death by stoning in 2002, but Musharef intervened to stop it. Now Musharef has gone, the mullahs will probably be handing out the stones again.

[Calanen]

:) i think u need to study Islam before misinterpreting by terming this political incident linking it with Islam.

But anyway we are not surprised when few non-Muslims misinterpret things about Islam (There are learned non-Muslima who go for explaining things witout any biase and that is the best way to see things).

That's the stock standard answer to any criticism of Islam - you poor feeble minded Infidel couldnt possibly understand the heavy mysterious ways that is Islam and Sharia. Tell me why I am wrong. Sharia in those Islamic countries has as a penalty of stoning to death. Its not tribal - its Islamic - the Persians and the Saudis are not from the same tribe.

What you'll find - is that I understand it all quite well.

[Jana]

Except that burying women up to their necks and stoning them to death is permitted under Sharia law for adultery, and is on the statute books in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE, Nigeria and Pakistan. Pakistan sentenced a woman to death by stoning in 2002, but Musharef intervened to stop it. Now Musharef has gone, the mullahs will probably be handing out the stones again.

The law is not enforced many Muslim countries. It was amended in Pakistan by Musharraf government and now it dose not exist there.

End of the objection.

BTW the during time of last Prophet (PBUH) and Khilafa no woman was stonned to death.
Even there were cases of adultry but there is no single evident that any woman was stonned to death.
The law was more to give protection to those who indulge in adultry rather than stonning that is why there was no stoning during that period.

We can not speak for Iran.

[Jana]

That's the stock standard answer to any criticism of Islam - you poor feeble minded Infidel couldnt possibly understand the heavy mysterious ways that is Islam and Sharia. Tell me why I am wrong. Sharia in those Islamic countries has as a penalty of stoning to death. Its not tribal - its Islamic - the Persians and the Saudis are not from the same tribe.

What you'll find - is that I understand it all quite well.
:lol: whether stoning or giving death penality by injecting poision to the criminals what is the difference in any of the cases the end product is capital punishment.

[Jana]

That's the stock standard answer to any criticism of Islam - you poor feeble minded Infidel couldnt possibly understand the heavy mysterious ways that is Islam and Sharia. Tell me why I am wrong. Sharia in those Islamic countries has as a penalty of stoning to death. Its not tribal - its Islamic - the Persians and the Saudis are not from the same tribe.

What you'll find - is that I understand it all quite well.

In India even today new born baby girls are killed, by dipping them alive in Milk, water or sand, or even pouring sand down their throats.

Would you have guts to explain this is it tribal or religious or even shocking to people like you ????

[name already taken]

You really think this specific tribe that this culture is unique to is the one spreading around the world?

It is a specific tribe nobody knows and no one heard about before...

/*pure speculation*/

Here's a more documented example:

"...But the most contentious issue was sati (or suttee), the custom whereby widows would burn themselves on their husband's funeral pyre. By the 1820s the East India Company, which had not intervened, had come to the conclusion that sati was not only repulsive but was not necessarily voluntary. There were reports of women being forced to burn themselves, or of being tied to the pyres." (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1829bentinck.html)

At the end of the day, we all come from the caves. But it's
not a reason to excuse one group or another for keeping its
primitive practices for "cultural" reasons.

Would it be burying people alive or stoning.

[LazerLordz]

Cultural relativism be damned.

[Doublethinker]

:) i think u need to study Islam before misinterpreting by terming this political incident linking it with Islam.

But anyway we are not surprised when few non-Muslims misinterpret things about Islam (There are learned non-Muslima who go for explaining things witout any biase and that is the best way to see things).

Would you please answer one simple questions - is it true or not true (if not, please say why) for muslim concept of adat to take such ugly forms as in this case?

[Jana]

Would you please answer one simple questions - is it true or not true (if not, please say why) for muslim concept of adat to take such ugly forms as in this case?

What is adat ????

Will you care to explain then i will be able to reply as there is no concept like adat ???

Are you talking about "Edat"

[Doublethinker]

In India even today new born baby girls are killed, by dipping them alive in Milk, water or sand, or even pouring sand down their throats.

Would you have guts to explain this is it tribal or religious or even shocking to people like you ????

Indians don't even claim to be People of the Book.

They are just pagans. Yes, intelligent, yes, clever, yes their religious system is deeply philosophical and intriguing. But its paganism still.

Muslims on the other hand, claim that Mohammed continued what was done by prophets (you consider them to be all prophets) Issa, Abrahim and Musa.

[Doublethinker]

What is adat ????

Will you care to explain then i will be able to reply as there is no concept like adat ???

Are you talking about "Edat"

In English and Russian its adat, tribal customs and laws.

Maybe its edat if written correctly.

[Jana]

In English and Russian its adat, tribal customs and laws.

Maybe its edat if written correctly.

Ok first of all there is no law in Islam which is based on adat or tribal custom.
There is no such concept in Islam.
Do you know why the need for Islam felt 1400 years back ???

Just to do away with these tribal customs.

[LazerLordz]

There's a case for adat to be found to have moved from place of origin to an alien place (both places having similar religious and doctrinal architecture).

While certain tribal customs may appear to be alien to some parts of the world, the time factor can be a plausible explanation for certain adat to have been brought over with differing interpretations of Islam.

However, like I said, when it comes to something like this, it is clearly out of step with the modern world and we should not make excuses for what is clear and simple murder.

[Doublethinker]

Ok first of all there is no law in Islam which is based on adat or tribal custom.
There is no such concept in Islam.
Do you know why the need for Islam felt 1400 years back ???

Just to do away with these tribal customs.

I never said that there was any LAW in islam based on adat.

I said adat playes important part in Islamic view on how an ideal muslim society is organized. Its like Sharia+Adat.

Jana, weird to hear that, since even the claim 'Allahu Akbar' comes from the paganic pre-Islamic concepts of Arabian pagans. And in every muslim country is actually quite a lot of things 'added up' to the basic laws of Sharia, depending on traditions and custom.

[Doublethinker]

There's a case for adat to be found to have moved from place of origin to an alien place (both places having similar religious and doctrinal architecture).

While certain tribal customs may appear to be alien to some parts of the world, the time factor can be a plausible explanation for certain adat to have been brought over with differing interpretations of Islam.

However, like I said, when it comes to something like this, it is clearly out of step with the modern world and we should not make excuses for what is clear and simple murder.

Noone's making excuses. I'm pointing out to a flaw in Islamic concept of social justice.

In Pakistan these retarded tribes might think they are getting it right and there's no one written down law in Islam to show them they are wrong, to my knowledge, since the priority of sometimes mutually exclusive claims is unclear.
In Chechnya during its period of Independence Sharia combined with local customs and mystical muridic trends, created a unique social system with non-believers and non-chechens viewed as subhumans, or 'animals', where the talk of 'Islamic fascism' actually started from at least here in Russia, after the fruit of combining religious doctrine with local national suprematism tendencies became evident.

[Jana]

I never said that there was any LAW in islam based on adat.

I said adat playes important part in Islamic view on how an ideal muslim society is organized. Its like Sharia+Adat.

Jana, weird to hear that, since even the claim 'Allahu Akbar' comes from the paganic pre-Islamic concepts of Arabian pagans. And in every muslim country is actually quite a lot of things 'added up' to the basic laws of Sharia, depending on traditions and custom.

I cant say laws of the countries based on tribal tradtions or ills but i dont agree that any law that is having tribal tradtions which are all against Islam can be termed Sharia?
The true sharia can never have any law that is based on injustice or evil crimes.

[Jana]

Noone's making excuses. I'm pointing out to a flaw in Islamic concept of social justice.

In Pakistan these retarded tribes might think they are getting it right and there's no one written down law in Islam to show them they are wrong, to my knowledge, since the priority of sometimes mutually exclusive claims is unclear.
In Chechnya during its period of Independence Sharia combined with local customs and mystical muridic trends, created a unique social system with non-believers and non-chechens viewed as subhumans, or 'animals', where the talk of 'Islamic fascism' actually started from at least here in Russia, after the fruit of combining religious doctrine with local national suprematism tendencies became evident.

The Islamic concept of social justic is very much clear.

Mixing tribal customs with this concept is totaly wrong.

and these retard reletives of this Minister who are involved in this disguting crime if tried under the Sharia law they will have no place to run.

[Doublethinker]

The Islamic concept of social justic is very much clear.

Mixing tribal customs with this concept is totaly wrong.

and these retard reletives of this Minister who are involved in this disguting crime if tried under the Sharia law they will have no place to run.

then could you please quote any source (with authority) where it would be said, that when adat goes against sharia, it should be liquidated and that if adfat goes against the spirit of Quoran it should aso be liquidated?

I'm really interested in this one and ready to be proven wrong.

[Laconian]

:lol: whether stoning or giving death penality by injecting poision to the criminals what is the difference in any of the cases the end product is capital punishment.

Are you saying that there is no difference between stoning a person to death and lethal injection if the death penalty is lawfully conducted by the state?

Also, I don't know of any western state (nation) where there is still a death penalty for adultery, nor a legal acceptance of honor killing.

[Jana]

Are you saying that there is no difference between stoning a person to death and lethal injection if the death penalty is lawfully conducted by the state?

Also, I don't know of any western state (nation) where there is still a death penalty for adultery, nor a legal acceptance of honor killing.

:) there is no legal acceptance of honour killing in our part of the world as well.

And there is also big difference between carying out of stoning by a state and by an individual.

[name already taken]

The true sharia can never have any law that is based on injustice or evil crimes.
Only old books say humans are not animals.

When considering human species has around 200,000 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human) of
age, and that civilisation is something around 10,000 years
old, I would not look into old books to find the definition
of my identity. I would look in our genes dating back
200,000 years.

In those genes are written 190,000 years of mere survival in
harsh conditions making everybody able to murder and of
anything worse just to survive.

This is how we survived.

So I don't place too much attention in old books. I prefer
learning how to control my heritage by myself.

Everything else is academic.

[Mortuus Piscis]

then could you please quote any source (with authority) where it would be said, that when adat goes against sharia, it should be liquidated and that if adfat goes against the spirit of Quoran it should aso be liquidated?

I'm really interested in this one and ready to be proven wrong.

I agree if there is something that goes against the good views of Islam it should be liquidated. At the same time though I also think they need to look at the sharia or Quran and anything else, and they also need to look at the stuff that is outdated and shouldn't be acceptable in today's world.

Thats really where the problem comes from, and in the end its up to the people to decide what they feel is right and acceptable, and its the people who should be held the most accountabe.

[Mortuus Piscis]

And as said multiple times before, its their religion that allows this tribal thing to be dragged into modern world and into their concept of morality.

I think the same could be said for just about every religious or justice system in the world. Some religions defiantly make these things possible.



Too bad there are no recorded incidents of 'christian stoning' and you are pulling this out of your ass, simply because you have no idea what christianity is about.

First and foremost its 10 commandments.

Leviticus is Old Testament.
*pokes you with a stick* both are old testament :hug:

and even though parts of the old testament were 'fixed' when jesus came the fact that they are still there in the bible leaves it open for the idiotslike this lady
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kF1J4s0dxM

lol imagine her stupid little cult growing and becoming something major with her twisted views

there is still people who pick and choose which parts of Leviticus to believe in minus the stoning, regardless of anything else.



People bring up 'its a christian thing too' because they are uncomfortable seeing such **** happening in a religion that also infiltrates their own countries, so they kinda have to come up with 'it can't be so bad' to feel more secure.100% bull****, other then the part about being uncomfortable with people being buried alive (no ****) that is bull****. the only one working off fear seems to be you. i have no reason to make myself feel more secure about any religion not even the big scary muslims. If one day islam did take over america it would be a much different islam then these idiot fanatics you guys are so scared of...we already have a lot of muslims in america today and none of them are doing this retarded stuff

[Adux]

Hudood laws, enough said.

[Mortuus Piscis]

It is a specific tribe nobody knows and no one heard about before...

/*pure speculation*/

Here's a more documented example:

"...But the most contentious issue was sati (or suttee), the custom whereby widows would burn themselves on their husband's funeral pyre. By the 1820s the East India Company, which had not intervened, had come to the conclusion that sati was not only repulsive but was not necessarily voluntary. There were reports of women being forced to burn themselves, or of being tied to the pyres." (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1829bentinck.html)

At the end of the day, we all come from the caves. But it's
not a reason to excuse one group or another for keeping its
primitive practices for "cultural" reasons.

Would it be burying people alive or stoning.

I agree that tribe has sick customs, no doubt. I was never defending them. I never defended stoning or being buried alive either, both are sick. and the fact that any religion has it as a part of their scriptures bothers me.

My point though was that just because its in the scriptures doesn't mean people cant rise above it on their own, and make their own judgments on these outdated practices. We need to hold people accountable for sticking to stupid outdated stuff. In the end of the day it comes down to the people, not the religion because will never change with the times, but a lot of people do rise above outdated scriptures including other muslims around the world.

[Adux]

Hudud

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Redirected from Hudood (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hudood&redirect=no))
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For the Hudud ordinances in Pakistan, see Hudood Ordinance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood_Ordinance).
Part of a series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fiqh) on the
Islamic Jurisprudence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiqh)
– a discipline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_discipline) of Islamic studies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_studies)
Fields

Economical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_economical_jurisprudence)
Political (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_political_jurisprudence)
Marital (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_marital_jurisprudence)
Criminal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_criminal_jurisprudence)

Tazir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazir) - Discretionary Punishments
Hudud - Fixed Punishments

Maisir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maisir) - Gambling
Blasphemy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy)
Zina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zina_%28Arabic%29) – Extra-Marital Sex
Hirabah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirabah) - Terrorism
Rajm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajm) - Stoning


Qisas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qisas) - Retribution
Diyya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyya) - Compensation


Etiquette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_etiquettical_jurisprudence)
Theological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_theological_jurisprudence)
Hygiene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_hygienical_jurisprudence)
Military (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_war_in_Islam)

This box: view (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Fiqh-Cri) • talk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Fiqh-Cri) • edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Fiqh-Cri&action=edit)
Hudud (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language) حدود, also transliterated hadud, hudood; singular hadd, حد, literal meaning "limit", or "restriction") is the word often used in Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) literature for the bounds of acceptable behaviour and the punishments for serious crimes. In Islamic law or Sharia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia), hudud usually refers to the class of punishments that are fixed for certain crimes that are considered to be "claims of God." They include theft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft), fornication (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fornication), consumption of alcohol.
Contents

[hide (javascript:toggleToc())]


1 Overview (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#Overview)
2 Requirements for conviction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#Requirements_for_conviction)

2.1 Adultery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#Adultery)
2.2 Sodomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#Sodomy)
2.3 Theft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#Theft)

3 Explanations for punishments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#Explanations_for_punishments)
4 Further reading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#Further_reading)
5 References (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#References)
6 See also (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#See_also)
7 External links (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#External_links)


[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hudud&action=edit&section=1)] Overview

Hudud offenses are one of four different kinds in Islamic Penal Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_criminal_jurisprudence)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-0):


Qisas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qisas) - meaning retaliation, and following the biblical principle of "an eye for an eye."
Diyya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyya) - compensation paid to the heirs of a victim. In Arabic the word means both blood money and ransom.
hudud - fixed punishments
Tazir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazir) - punishment, usually corporal, administered at the discretion of the judge

Hudud offenses are defined as "claims of God," and therefore the sovereign was held to have a responsibility to punish them. All other offenses were defined as "claims of [His] servants," and responsibility for prosecution rested on the victim. This includes murder, which was treated as a private dispute between the murderer and the victim's heirs. The heirs had the right to compensation and to demand execution of the murderer (see qisas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qisas)), but they could also choose to forgive.
Hudud offenses include: [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-bechor-1)


Drinking alcohol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Alcohol#Alcohol) (sharb al-khamr, شرب الخمر)
Theft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft) (sariqa, السرقة)
Highway robbery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_robbery) (qat' al-tariq, قطع الطريق)
Illegal sexual intercourse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zina_%28Arabic%29) (zina', الزناء)
False accusation of zina' (qadhf, القذف) [1][3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-2)
Rebellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebellion) against the ruler
Apostasy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam) (irtidād or ridda, ارتداد) includes blasphemy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_blasphemy). (Unlike the five offenses listed above, not all jurists consider apostasy to be a hudud offense.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)])

The punishments vary according to the status of the offender - Muslims generally receive harsher punishments than non-Muslims, free people receive harsher punishments than slaves, and in the case of zina', married people receive harsher punishments than unmarried.
In brief, the punishments include:


Capital punishments - by sword/crucifixion (for highway robbery with homicide), by stoning (for zina' when the offenders are mature, married Muslims)
Amputation of hands or feet (for theft and highway robbery without homicide)
Flogging with a varying number of strokes (for drinking, zina' when the offenders are unmarried or not Muslims, and false accusations of zina')

In traditional Islamic legal systems, there were very exacting standards of proof that had to be met if hudud punishments were to be implemented. Only eye-witness testimony and confession were admitted. For eye-witness testimony, the number of witnesses required was doubled from Islamic law's usual standard of two to four. Moreover, only the testimony of free adult Muslim males was acceptable (in non-hudud cases the testimony of women, non-Muslims and slaves could be admitted in certain circumstances). A confession had to be repeated four times, the confessor had to be in a healthy state of mind, and he or she could retract the confession at any point before punishment.
However, while these standards of proof made hudud punishments very difficult to apply in practice, an offender could still be sentenced to corporal punishment at the discretion of the judge (see tazir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazir)), if he or she was found guilty but the standards of proof required for hudud punishments could not be met.
There are minor differences in views between the four major Sunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam) madhhabs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhhab) about sentencing and specifications for these laws. It is often argued that, since Sharia is God's law and states certain punishments for each crime, they are immutable. However, with liberal movements in Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_movements_in_Islam) expressing concerns about hadith validity, a major component of how Islamic law is created, questions have arisen about administering certain punishments. Incompatibilities with human rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights) in the way Islamic law is practised in many countries has led Tariq Ramadan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_Ramadan) to call for an international moratorium on the punishments of hudud laws until greater scholarly consensus can be reached[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-3).
It has also been argued, that the Hudud portion of Sharia is incompatible with humanist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism) or Western understanding of human rights. For example a Washington Times editorial called Pakistan's Hudood ordinance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood_ordinance):
a set of laws passed in 1979 in response to pressure from hardline Islamic political groups that odiously punished rape (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape) victims while making it difficult to convict the perpetrators. [1] (http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20061116-090021-3966r.htm)
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hudud&action=edit&section=2)] Requirements for conviction


[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hudud&action=edit&section=3)] Adultery

The punishment of adulterers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery) under Islamic law is stoning. It is not mentioned in the Qur'an but "derives its authority from hadith literature references which are imputed by many," according to Kemal A. Faruki (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kemal_A._Faruki&action=edit&redlink=1).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-4) There are certain standards for proof that must be met in Islamic law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_law) for this punishment to apply. In the Shafii, Hanbali, Hanafi and the Shia law schools the stoning is imposed for the married adulterer and his partner only if the crime is proven, either by four male adults eyewitnessing the actual sexual intercourse at the same time, or by self-confession. In the Maliki school of law, however, evidence of pregnancy also constitutes sufficient proof.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-5) Scholars such as Fazel Lankarani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fazel_Lankarani) and Ayatollah Sanei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatollah_Yousef_Sanei) hold that stoning penalty is imposed only if the adulterer has had sexual access to his or her mate.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-7) Ayatollah Shirazi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Ayatollah_al-Shirazi) states that the proof for adultery is very hard to establish, because no one commits adultery in public unless they are irreverent.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-8) For the establishment of adultery, four witnesses "must have seen the act in its most intimate details, i.e. the penetration (like “a stick disappearing in a kohl container,” as the fiqh books specify). If their testimonies do not satisfy the requirements, they can be sentenced to eighty lashes for unfounded accusation of fornication." [10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-9)
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hudud&action=edit&section=4)] Sodomy

The sodomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy) aspect of sexual expression is questioned by the Qur'an, notably in the story of Lot found in verses [Qur'an (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an) 7:80 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/007.qmt.html#007.080)][citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)].

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hudud&action=edit&section=5)] Theft

Commenting on this verse, Yusuf Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_Ali) says that most Islamic jurists believe that "petty thefts are exempt from this punishment" and that "only one hand should be cut off for the first theft."[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-10) Maududi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maududi) also agrees that petty theft is exempt, although he admits that jurists disagree as to the exact dividing line.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-11) In Shi'a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia) law, the penalty for the first theft is interpreted as the severing of the four fingers of the right hand based on hadith authentic to them,[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-12) and this penalty will be applied only if the thief is adult, sane, has stolen from a secure place, was not under compulsion or misery, and does not repent before the crime is proved, among other conditions.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-13)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-14)

[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hudud&action=edit&section=6)] Explanations for punishments

John Esposito (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Esposito) explains that some Muslims justify these punishments in general terms because they punish crimes that are "against God and a threat to the moral fabric of the Muslim community." He observes that Islamic law provides strict regulations regarding evidence in cases involving these crimes, and that false accusations are seriously punished.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-15) Esposito also observes that Muslim reformers have argued that "these punishment were appropriate within the historical and social contexts in which they originated but are inappropriate today and that the underlying religious principles and values need to find new expression in modernizing societies."[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-16)
William Montgomery Watt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Montgomery_Watt) believes that "such penalties may have been suitable for the age in which Muhammad lived. However, as societies have since progressed and become more peaceful and ordered, they are not suitable any longer." Gerhard Endress, professor of Islamic Studies at Ruhr University, states that at the time of advent of Islam, several social reforms happened in which a new system of marriage and family, including legal restrictions such as restriction of the practice of polygamy, was built up. Endress says that "it was only by this provision (backed up by severe punishment for adultery), that the family, the core of any sedentary society could be placed on a firm footing." [18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-17)
See above section on adultery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudud#Adultery) for an examination of the requirement of proof of same.
Commenting on the verses related to amputation of the limbs of thieves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thieves), Maududi writes that "here and at other places the Qur'an merely declares that sodomy is such a heinous sin... that it is the duty of the Islamic State to eradicate this crime and... punish those who are guilty of it." [19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-18)
There is a movement among some modern liberal Muslims to "re-interpret Islamic verses about ancient punishments," in the words of Professor Ali A. Mazrui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_A._Mazrui). He states that the punishments laid down fourteen centuries ago "had to be truly severe enough to be a deterrent" in their day, but "since then God has taught us more about crime, its causes, the methods of its investigation, the limits of guilt, and the much wider range of possible punishments."[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood#cite_note-19)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood

[Eokboy]

Sure, not saying it happens everywhere. Just saying Islam doesn't forbid it and it all bogs down to each tribe having its own interpretatin of what can be made of Islam and its laws.
I disagree. I'm pretty sure burying girls alive for choosing their own partners is dead wrong in Islam, tribal custom or not. The ones who did it must be punished, and muslims who think otherwise would be sinning.

[Calanen]

:) there is no legal acceptance of honour killing in our part of the world as well.

And there is also big difference between carying out of stoning by a state and by an individual.

What a load of baloney. Honor killing is widely practised and is either not reported or protected by the Police, and anyone who is actually charged receives an extraordinarily lenient sentence.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA33/018/1999/en/dom-ASA330181999en.pdf

[LazerLordz]

What a load of baloney. Honor killing is widely practised and is either not reported or protected by the Police, and anyone who is actually charged receives an extraordinarily lenient sentence.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA33/018/1999/en/dom-ASA330181999en.pdf

You could see it as a terrible problem with semantics.

Legally "unacceptable", but practically unchallenged. Gah.

[Zathras]

I want to know how calanen, double**** and the like get off on telling us what our religion is about.

Since your so informed about it you should come here and tell some of our scholars what you know, hell why dont you come here and tell muslim parents what they should be teaching there kids.

I'd like to see there response when you tell them what they really should be teaching there kids.

And now calanens come out with a new one such as "pakistanis arent shocked when women are buried alive"

Really so when did this custom come commonplace across pakistan and somehow accepted as the norm?

Seriously dude do you ever get out of the house and come into contact with real muslims?

[Adux]

Take the live burial out, everything else is dandy!


/sarcasm off

[black mamba]

if any one of you actually bothered to read the Quran/research into the religion (and yes, that includes these dumbass mullahs who think they know soooo much), here's the gist of how adultery is punished:

if a person commits it once, and there are four IMPECCABLE witnesses to the act, then they get 100 lashes if unmarried. the same if it happens a second time. the third time, they get stoned to death / execution.

now, how does one GET four witnesses to an adulterous act? one DOES not unless its an orgy! so, its extremely difficult to prove adultery unless somebody's caught in the act.

however, and this is the part that mullahs etc choose to overlook cuz it doesnt suit their purpose, there is a provision in the Quran which states that if the persons accused of adultery swear on the Quran infront of witnesses that they havent committed adultery and if they are lying, its between them and God, they are to be set free.

simple!

now y do ppl over look this? cuz it suits them to instill fear in the people they want to control. it allows them to maintain a certain level of power over them and to manipulate their actions accordingly. its about power, illiteracy and control. nothing else.

[LazyLob]

if any one of you actually bothered to read the Quran/research into the religion

Yawn........ Got better things to do.


here's the gist of how adultery is punished:

if a person commits it once, and there are four IMPECCABLE witnesses to the act, then they get 100 lashes if unmarried. the same if it happens a second time. the third time, they get stoned to death / execution.

now, how does one GET four witnesses to an adulterous act? one DOES not unless its an orgy! so, its extremely difficult to prove adultery unless somebody's caught in the act.

however, and this is the part that mullahs etc choose to overlook cuz it doesnt suit their purpose, there is a provision in the Quran which states that if the persons accused of adultery swear on the Quran infront of witnesses that they havent committed adultery and if they are lying, its between them and God, they are to be set free.

simple!

now y do ppl over look this? cuz it suits them to instill fear in the people they want to control. it allows them to maintain a certain level of power over them and to manipulate their actions accordingly. its about power, illiteracy and control. nothing else.

And who are you, and is this the official interpretation, and what is official, and do you have the longest and sharpest Jambiya to enforce this particular interpretation?

[Adux]

Lob,

Pass me that Cigar,

;)

[LazyLob]

Where's the scotch?

[Adux]

I have a bottle of Glen!! and some cheetos

[LazyLob]

[Danskeren]

Senator defends burying alive of women.


http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/Dawn%20Content%20Library/dawn/news/pakistan/senator+defends+burying+alive+of+women+wishing+to+marry+of+their+own+will (http://www.dawn.net/wps/wcm/connect/Dawn%20Content%20Library/dawn/news/pakistan/senator+defends+burying+alive+of+women+wishing+to+marry+of+their+own+will)

That's pretty sick stuff..
Wack up call ; it's not year 50.000 B.C. :roll:

[kvk1]

Sickening.