Cuba: Reagan Should 'Never Have Been Born'

[SeanAshi]

HAVANA — Cuba harshly criticized former President Ronald Reagan and his policies on Monday, saying he should "never have been born."

In the first reaction to Reagan's death from the communist government, Radio Reloj (search) said:

"As forgetful and irresponsible as he was, he forgot to take his worst works to the grave," the government radio station said.

"He, who never should have been born, has died," the radio said.

The statement did not mention Cuba's relationship with the United States under Reagan, a staunch foe of communism.

It also did not mention Reagan's decision to order U.S. forces to invade the tiny Caribbean country of Grenada on Oct. 25, 1983, because Washington feared the island had grown too close to Cuba.

Since the early 1960s, Cuba and the United States have been without diplomatic relations, and Cuba has been under a U.S. trade embargo. But relations between the two countries were especially tense when Reagan was in office from 1981-1989.

Radio Reloj lambasted Reagan's military policies, especially the "Star Wars" anti-missile program (search). The initiative, launched when the Soviet Union still existed, rejected a long-standing doctrine built on the idea that neither superpower would start a nuclear war out of fear of annihilation by the other.

The radio also criticized Reagan's policies in Central America, where Washington backed a counterrevolutionary rebel army that fought against the leftist Sandinista government in Nicaragua. The United States also supported a conservative government that battled Marxist guerrillas during El Salvador's civil war.

"His apologists characterize him as the victor of the Cold War (search)," the radio said. "Those in the know knew that the reality was not so, but rather (he was) the destroyer of policies of detente in the overall quest for peace."

[American Patriot]

Warning: Cuban propaganda is dangerous to your mental health.

[SeanAshi]

That and Communism in general

[Kilgor]

sore losers from the cold war.

castro knows where he can stick that cigar

[Midav]

Sounds like Reagan did his job quite effectively when people are still mad at him after he's dead.

[cqbrdy]

why havent we took cuba yet?

arent they terrorists?????

[Secret Squirrel]

why havent we took cuba yet?

arent they terrorists?????

why havent we killed off the KKK yet? arent they terrorists?

[seruriermarshal]

KKK=cuba=terrorists

[SeanAshi]

why havent we killed off the KKK yet? arent they terrorists?I'm all for that :P they are domestic terrorist.

[cqbrdy]

klansmen, are those guys still around?????
i thought they gave up and moved into the hills...

and when i said cubans, i meant the communist gov.
its only a matter of time i think.

we should go after domestic terrorists,
just to get the trigger time. ;)

[Zarathustra]

Communism= Brainwashing :bash:

[SeanAshi]

Castro is old and his time is near...its really a shame Cuba is a beautiful country. Castros own daughter fled to the United States.

[usa320]

How many times has this guy barely escaped US assasination...Its a god damn shame we didnt get him.

[MEGR]

How many times has this guy barely escaped US assasination...Its a god damn shame we didnt get him.

Maybe we can get the Israelis to do it.. They have a PHD is assasinations.

[SeanAshi]

Until the early 90's I'm sure the Soviets wouldn't have been to happy with Castro being taken out.

[Vance]

How many times has this guy barely escaped US assasination...Its a god damn shame we didnt get him.

Maybe we can get the Israelis to do it.. They have a PHD is assasinations.
With a major in asskicking.

[Zarathustra]

There are actually three communists countries: North Corea, Cuba and China...But i think the most dangerous on this small list is the North Korea, because they have the nuclear power... :fork:

[Kilgor]

apart from the fine whores and cigars, there isnt much there.

mmmmm... whores and cigars :P

[Secret Squirrel]

apart from the fine whores and cigars, there isnt much there.

mmmmm... whores and cigars :P

whores and cigars in cuba = stinky crotch crabs

[German_American]

This might be extreme but I think along with the kkk being completly destroyed, I think inner city gangs should get similiar treatment for causing so much crime.

[Shake n Bake]

Sink the whole Island. .

[jizzmonkey]

How many times has this guy barely escaped US assasination...Its a god damn shame we didnt get him.

Maybe we can get the Israelis to do it.. They have a PHD is assasinations.

I would neeeevvvvveeeerrr **** with the israelis, they dont mess around,
masters of unsuspected assasinations, very clever and fierce.

I guess you have to be when 90% of the world wants to destroy you.

I have a lot of respect for the Jewish people, and they will always have my support.

[NcDeuce]

Very classy of them to say that. :roll:

[Aussie E]

F*CK CUBA

[Flagg]

Sink the whole Island. .

That's a shame.....I hope I get to visit Cuba before you blow it up....of the photos I've seen and the people I know who've visted...it certainly sounds like a beautiful place

[Vance]

CUBA = Cubans Using Ballsy Attitudes.

[rokus2595]

Warning: Cuban propaganda is dangerous to your mental health.


Warning: American propaganda is dangerous to your mental health

let the natives decide which one is worst....:roll:

[Vance]

Depends on which natives you're talking about. :)

[Kilgor]

unfortunately castro chooses for them

Freedom of speech isnt that great in cuba.

You can have any colour you want so long as its red.

[Vance]

unfortunately castro chooses for them

Freedom of speech isnt that great in cuba.

You can have any colour you want so long as its red.
or Fuchsia. Castro adores that!

[Shake n Bake]

Sink the whole Island. .

That's a shame.....I hope I get to visit Cuba before you blow it up....of the photos I've seen and the people I know who've visted...it certainly sounds like a beautiful place

Listen to me..I'am from Cuba and Im telling the place is a ****hole full of assholes.

I rather see Cuba at the bottom of the ocean then under communist control for 40 more years. Fock em'

[Flagg]

Listen to me..I'am from Cuba and Im telling the place is a ****hole full of assholes.

I rather see Cuba at the bottom of the ocean then under communist control for 40 more years. Fock em'

I'm sorry to hear you wish your place of birth was carpet bombed....

Personally...I'd like to spend some time in a Cuban beachside bar embalming myself on Mojitos.

[fdt]

Hey guys... c'mon it's not dangerous or outraging ... IT"S FUNNY :D Like crocodiles whinning about the great meteorite that has finished the reign of dinosaurs...

[Vance]

Like crocodiles whinning about the great meteorite that has finished the reign of dinosaurs...
What in the

[Loco]

Those hot armchair freedom warriors...why don´t you just blow up yourselfes? It seems you´re paid a penny for every insulting thing you say about Cuba, it´s not only about Castro, it´s about cubans and the way you talk of them. Neither assasins from Cia nor from Israel has nothing to do with Cuba. Cuba, before 1959, was a banana republic, a slave country of USA. Today, many cubans maybe they live like slaves, but at least the owner is cuban and of course Cuba isn´t a banana republic any more. Castro will die, peacefully not killed, I hope sooner than later and cubans will decide the best thing for them in freedom, without foreign interferences. Until them, I smoke an habano after the breakfast. p-)

[fdt]

Unfortunately, in economical terms, Cuba is still the banana republic... or rather a sugar republic. Monoculture of sugar and to some extent tobacco... with underdeveloped (for political reasons) tourism branch.

[MARINO]

KKK=cuba=terrorists
Cuba is not a terrorist country they just had a ficking red goverment and a mad grandpa as "president" wich means Dictator

[Loco]

Unfortunately, in economical terms, Cuba is still the banana republic... or rather a sugar republic. Monoculture of sugar and to some extent tobacco... with underdeveloped (for political reasons) tourism branch
Banana Republic is a term with clear political connotations, it doesn´t any relation with the size of economy. Haiti is a banana republic both in economic and political terms so to speak, in the same way some cubans could argue that Poland is banana republic in politics of USA or in economic terms of Germany, and other cubans could argue that Spain is a banana republic in political terms of USA before and of UE now. There´re as many opinions as asses.
But regarding Cuba, sugar is important, and tobacco is very important, but it´s just that Cuba has the best tobacco of the world, even there´s a company of cuban-foreign ownership allied with the hispano-french Altadis that markets the best cigars and it rules the world market with very good profits. Cuban has industry too of course, and they export such things as medicines. And about tourism, it´s big in Cuba, every year bigger than the year before and many foreign operators are working in Cuba with many resorts being built years ago and more every year. Of course, the cuban regime it´s not the most efficient in economic terms, not to talk of freedom, but it´s developing an economy of all cubans and all they need is a peaceful transition to democracy, without foreign intereferences that at the end the only thing they want it´s getting the cuban resources off. I´m afraid your acknowledgment of Cuba is the same you have about spanish Guardia Civil ****** activity, but talking is cheap.

[fdt]

Unfortunately, in economical terms, Cuba is still the banana republic... or rather a sugar republic. Monoculture of sugar and to some extent tobacco... with underdeveloped (for political reasons) tourism branch
Banana Republic is a term with clear political connotations, it doesn´t any relation with the size of economy. Haiti is a banana republic both in economic and political terms so to speak, in the same way some cubans could argue that Poland is banana republic in politics of USA or in economic terms of Germany, and other cubans could argue that Spain is a banana republic in political terms of USA before and of UE now. There´re as many opinions as asses.
But regarding Cuba, sugar is important, and tobacco is very important, but it´s just that Cuba has the best tobacco of the world, even there´s a company of cuban-foreign ownership allied with the hispano-french Altadis that markets the best cigars and it rules the world market with very good profits. Cuban has industry too of course, and they export such things as medicines. And about tourism, it´s big in Cuba, every year bigger than the year before and many foreign operators are working in Cuba with many resorts being built years ago and more every year. Of course, the cuban regime it´s not the most efficient in economic terms, not to talk of freedom, but it´s developing an economy of all cubans and all they need is a peaceful transition to democracy, without foreign intereferences that at the end the only thing they want it´s getting the cuban resources off. I´m afraid your acknowledgment of Cuba is the same you have about spanish Guardia Civil ****** activity, but talking is cheap.As I told You before: if You got any personal problem with me PM me... I am affraid that Your knowledge of communism is the same as Your knowledge of Poland, but talking (rude way) is cheap... especially when You're hidden behind a keyboard.

[Loco]

As I told You before: if You got any personal problem with me PM me... I am affraid that Your knowledge of communism is the same as Your knowledge of Poland, but talking (rude way) is cheap... especially when You're hidden behind a keyboard.
My knowledge of Poland is few, and I didn´t pretend the contrary, my knowledge of communism as a citizen is few too since I´ve never lived in a communist country but I don´t know what the point of communism here, but I was in a communist country and I met many communists in Spain and out Spain, some of the friends of me and some of them the best and bravest people I knew, btw. And I was born and grew up as a child under a dictatorship, so I have some knowledge of first hand of what is freedom and not freedom. My knowledge of Cuba is a slightly bigger than yours, because of personal, historical and cultural reasons and because I was there. Saying that Cuba has only sugar and tobacco is like saying that Spain only has sun and sherry, and excuse me if I´m too rude for you.
To put if clear: Once ago, I made some criticism about something you wrote, but I gave objective data to hold my statements. You answered hysterics insulting (what about sodomy?) and lying, you invented false things about Guardia Civil and the fight agaisnt ETA, you told a sado-masoch **** movie about that and you did the most easy thing: using your flag as a shield. I am me, not all the spanish, and you are you, not all the polish, ok? And I´ve just read that all posts, if it´s neccesary I´ll paste your words here.
It was you who hid behind a screen and said to me things you´d never be able to say face to face, that is the only true thing. I only say you wrote wrong things about Cuba, and that´s something I could say face to face to you. Still waiting you apologize about the lies you said about an spanish institutions, and please, don´t do it in PM.

[Ichhabe]

why havent we took cuba yet?

arent they terrorists?????


Why don't you STFU??? Cuba is a independent country that is free to make their own choice of way. You should worrie about other things. :bash:

[front]

it´s not only about Castro, it´s about cubans and the way you talk of them. Neither assasins from Cia nor from Israel has nothing to do with Cuba. Cuba, before 1959, was a banana republic, a slave country of USA. Today, many cubans maybe they live like slaves, but at least the owner is cuban and of course Cuba isn´t a banana republic any more. Castro will die, peacefully not killed, I hope sooner than later and cubans will decide the best thing for them in freedom, without foreign interferences.

You have my support my friend. It IS about Cubans and it IS about Cuban determinism.

You have nothing to be ashamed of... and will never have anything to be ashamed of.

Viva la Revolution.

Viva Cuba.

cheers

front

[fdt]

As I told You before: if You got any personal problem with me PM me... I am affraid that Your knowledge of communism is the same as Your knowledge of Poland, but talking (rude way) is cheap... especially when You're hidden behind a keyboard.
My knowledge of Poland is few, and I didn´t pretend the contrary, my knowledge of communism as a citizen is few too since I´ve never lived in a communist country but I don´t know what the point of communism here, but I was in a communist country and I met many communists in Spain and out Spain, some of the friends of me and some of them the best and bravest people I knew, btw. And I was born and grew up as a child under a dictatorship, so I have some knowledge of first hand of what is freedom and not freedom. My knowledge of Cuba is a slightly bigger than yours, because of personal, historical and cultural reasons and because I was there. Saying that Cuba has only sugar and tobacco is like saying that Spain only has sun and sherry, and excuse me if I´m too rude for you.
To put if clear: Once ago, I made some criticism about something you wrote, but I gave objective data to hold my statements. You answered hysterics insulting (what about sodomy?) and lying, you invented false things about Guardia Civil and the fight agaisnt ETA, you told a sado-masoch **** movie about that and you did the most easy thing: using your flag as a shield. I am me, not all the spanish, and you are you, not all the polish, ok? And I´ve just read that all posts, if it´s neccesary I´ll paste your words here.
It was you who hid behind a screen and said to me things you´d never be able to say face to face, that is the only true thing. I only say you wrote wrong things about Cuba, and that´s something I could say face to face to you. Still waiting you apologize about the lies you said about an spanish institutions, and please, don´t do it in PM.

http://www.basqueclubs.com/Hizketa/hizketa-11-1.htm

The action to suppress separatist violence was undercut by the refusal of France's then Socialist government to root out ETA units attacking Spain from bases in the Basque Southwest. Paris feared reprisals and some French Socialists viewed ETA as "freedom fighters". .
These circumstances led to what has been called a "dirty war". A clandestine Anti-terrorist Liberation Group (GAL) was formed and started operating in Spain's and France's Basque regions, kidnapping and killing suspected ETA members. But nine of its 27 victims in Southern France in the mid-80s were found to have nothing to do with terrorism. The GAL stopped operation after the French authorities began to co-operate seriously with Spanish officials. However in 1995, a Spanish judge found evidence that at least two ETA suspects who died in police custody had been tortured. He also discovered links between the police and the GAL. A former director-general for security and an ex-chief of police in Bilbao admitted helping the GAL's operations, and insisted that other higher officials were involved. Both men incriminated Jose Barrionuevo, who was Gonzales' interior Minister from 1982 until 1988.
Political analysts have claimed that this Socialist government connection with GAL has cost Gonzales dearly at the polls. It also helped ETA to once again through state repression to get sympathy from the people especially the young who it attempts to recruit to its ranks.

===========================================

http://www.fecl.org/circular/1901.htm

ALLEGED TORTURE OF BASQUE SEPARATISTS BY THE GUARDIA CIVIL
Serious accusations of maltreatment of detainees against the Spanish police force, Guardia Civil are causing unrest in the Basque country. Amnesty International and other Human Rights organisations have demanded for an unsparing enquiry of the affair. The Minister of the Interior, José Luis Corcuera admits "unpardonable neglect" of individual officers, but vigorously rejects accusations of torture.
The unrest in the basque country was provoked by a series of mysterious cases of sudden death and torture of members or sympathisers of the basque autonomist movement ETA under police detention. On occasion of police raids against a terrorist commando allegedly on the way of being set up, several dozens of persons had been arrested in the provinces of Guipuzcoa and Alava. All but one detainee later complained about maltreatment under interrogation by members of the Guardia Civil and the National Police. On 24 September Xabier Galparsoro, aged 27, was fatally injured in what the police said was an attempt to escape through a window facing a glass-roofed interior court and situated on the third floor of the criminal police office of Bilbao. Galparsoro died 48 hours later, on 26 September, without awaking from coma. The same day, Miren Gurutze Yanci, a 31 year old women was transferred from Bilbao to the Guardia Civil-barracks of Tres Cantos near Madrid. In the following night she demanded for medical aid because of strong pain in the chest, but the prison doctor in charge did not bother to see the patient and only prescibed anodynes by phone. When Ms. Gurutze's condition further deteriorated, members of the prison guard brought her to the local ambulance station, where her death caused by perisystole was ascertained. Just one day later, on 27 September, the daily "El Pais" reported the case of another women detainee, Maria José Lizzaribar, whose body showed no less than 22 effusions of blood after five days under custody of the Guardia Civil.

The incidents above at once provoked a massive uproar in the camp of the Basque autonomists resulting in a series of protest actions. Amnesty International's demand for an unsparing enquiry of the affair drew immediate response from Prime Minister Felipe Gonzales who promised a thorough examination of the accusations.

For his part, Juan Antonio Belloch, the new Minister of Justice, declared that he would not be able to further grant the responsible bodies loyalty and protection, as long as the last shadow of a doubt on the police's role in the incidents remained. Before his appointment as a minister last July, Belloch was among the most consequent and outspoken human rights activists among Spanish jurists and magistrates. Among other things, he was prominently involved in a public campaigns against the GAL death squads and for the liberation of one of the masterminds of the 1974 "Carnation revolution" in Protugal, The former colonel Otelo Saraiva de Carvalho.

Strong pressure from the public - and, for the first time, even from his own party ranks - induced Interior Minister José Luis Corcuera to appear before the parliamentary committee in charge already on 28 September. Corcuera admitted "unpardonable neglect" of individual officers and promised a disciplinary prosecution. However, pointing at provisional findings of the autopsy of the two dead detainees, he sharply rejected accusations of torture. According to the autopsies the two persons died of "natural death causes without external influence".

The Minister underlined that the autopsies had been carried out in presence of medical doctors and lawyers entrusted by the families concerned. In the case of the allegedly tortured Maria José Lizzaribar, the effusions of blood were caused by a chronical disease that led to the rupture of blood-vessels even at the slightest touch, the Interior Minister said, and added that Ms. Lizzaribar presented the effusions of blood already upon her arrest.

For the time being, both members of the opposition and the media seem to be satisfied with Minister Corcuera's explanations. In the Basque country, however, there is still a lot of talking about the "black hand" of the torturers and criticism is being voiced. Thus, Juan Maria Bandres, a Member of the European Parliament, says that incidents as the above are unworthy of a constitutional democracy. In Mr. Bandres' view the mere fact, that deaths as Galparsorso's and Gurutze's still occur in Spanish detention centres, constitutes an anachronism that could not simply be done away with by pointing at an enchainment of unfortunate circumstances or maladroitness of the personal in charge.

===============================================

It was all I could find in 5 mins... about those "lies I said about an spanish institutions".

[MARINO]

when Castro will be dead i hope cubans will have a pacefull transition, and they will be able to have a great democracy, if not it will be a big problem for all the countries, and specially for USA

[SeanAshi]

Sink the whole Island. .Turn it into a parking lot.

[Loco]

Fdt, you´re a case of audacity mixed with ignorance. There were tortures in Spain, of course there were, but you invented other hateful facts just to attack me. The first demonstration I went when I was still a young teenager were protesting against the GAL actions in my country against ETA or supposed supporters of ETA, which prejudiced a lot the fight against terrorism and divided the basque society, but so now I tell you I regret the first demonstration I went it wasn´t in support of victims of ETA. Our "Abu Ghraib" boys, Intxaurrondo here, still are in the jail after more than 10 years. You just invented **** about sodomy of Guardia Civil and spanish, not to tell the things you said to me personally. I tell you are just a poor moron, and very vain because you just don´t stand any criticism about your points of view or the facts you write, very characteristic of communists societies, btw. Still waiting you apologies.

[fdt]

Fdt, you´re a case of audacity mixed with ignorance. There were tortures in Spain, of course there were, but you invented other hateful facts just to attack me. The first demonstration I went when I was still a young teenager were protesting against the GAL actions in my country against ETA or supposed supporters of ETA, which prejudiced a lot the fight against terrorism and divided the basque society, but so now I tell you I regret the first demonstration I went it wasn´t in support of victims of ETA. Our "Abu Ghraib" boys, Intxaurrondo here, still are in the jail after more than 10 years. You just invented **** about sodomy of Guardia Civil and spanish, not to tell the things you said to me personally. I tell you are just a poor moron, and very vain because you just don´t stand any criticism about your points of view or the facts you write, very characteristic of communists societies, btw. Still waiting you apologies.Where did I suggest any ****** abuse by GC ? Pls quote me...

- case of audacity mixed with ignorance
- poor moron, and very vain because

etc...

Thanks... It's very kind of You... a s I try to clear up the things...

[edit] Pls don't forget to quote whole "conversation" we had underlining the infamous parts You are referring to...

[MARINO]

For GAL you are right, but for Guarcia Civil you are totally wrong. The foreign media know anything about spain.

[fdt]

For GAL you are right, but for Guarcia Civil you are totally wrong. The foreign media know anything about spain.Who were the GAL members...? Civilians? Policemen? Soldiers? Guardia Civil members?

[MARINO]

Civil Guards and policemen, but under Socialist Government orders, they justo follow ordes. Now all socialist politicians atre free, while civil guards, are still in prison.

[fdt]

@Loco

Of course You are stlii refering to this quarrel we had here:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12664&start=16

Pls read it in whole and note who has started the stupid ****** allegations... Your reference to my then avatar was supposed to be fair?

As You've apparently mistook then the colloquial phrase "get one's ass" for a ****** related, in other opportunity we had I tried to explain myself.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15056

Now You're back with Your silly accusations...

[fdt]

Civil Guards and policemen, but under Socialist Government orders, they justo follow ordes. Now all socialist politicians atre free, while civil guards, are still in prison.Politicians have been freed already? Damn... Everywhere and always they will find a way to have "special" treatment...

[mi35d]

It seems rather foolish of Cuba to be pissing on the memory of President Reagan when they're whining about how the US hasn't normalized relations!

Castro's death will be a breath of fresh air for the Island nation who'se people for the most part, really have no ill will with the US.

Meanwhile, all the losers who have been sucking off the system in Miami should remember that their political asylum status goes "bye-bye" if the US does normalize relations. Which means, the INS could tell them they have thirty days to GTFO!

[Sabre]

Kilgor wrote:
apart from the fine whores and cigars, there isnt much there.

Apart from a top class national health system that has defied international pharmiceutical companies by developing and producing it's own drugs nationally, cutting out the exccessive profit margin and ultimately making excellent health care available to all. Something for the US to learn there.

All in all, it's a lot better than when it was the US's casino/whorehouse/saloon under Batista.


cqbrdy wrote:
why havent we took cuba yet?

arent they terrorists?????


You nobber.

I think the US made at least one attempt to 'take' Cuba...ahem-Bay of Pigs-ahem...but it failed.

Instead, this man Reagan decided he would try to boost his public opinion like his mate Maggie Thatcher did, by having a war on a small island far away. The only difference being that Reagan was the aggressor, not Grenada. Of course, this was justified by the horrendous and incalcuably evil undertaking Grenada had done...they voted for a left wing leader! Not only that, but they were building an airport! Egad, how vile!

BTW, did I mention Grenada was a Commonwealth country? Maggie Thatcher may have been too in love with Reagan to care, but the Queen wasn't very f*cking impressed. Neither were many other people over here.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

BTW, did I mention Grenada was a Commonwealth country? Maggie Thatcher may have been too in love with Reagan to care, but the Queen wasn't very f*cking impressed. Neither were many other people over here.
Some of the old hands in the FO were very pissed of indeed, I myself could never understand the invasion of Grenada I reallly did not think that it presented a clear and present danger to the US.

[henksmoeder]

KKK=cuba=terrorists

KKK is an extremist right organisation IN NO WAY connected with cuba. The KKK hates commies. You probably fit a lot better between the KKK since you hate commies and you generalize muslims every f*cking day.

Why is cuba terrorists? YOU supported Batista, the extremist right motherf*cker who exploited his people FAR WORSE than Castro. The cuban revolution was a war of the people. A 'democratic' war. Don't forget that a lot of people STILL support castro. Shooting dissidents is bad, of course, but all the dictators YOU install do the same. F*cking holier-than-thou mentality. Would you say the cuban revolutionaries are terrorists?

Phuuh, invade cuba. You tried it before, you failed (Bay of Pigs ). Why bomb every country different than you? Why bomb every country that does not have the american way of life? Let them be. The majority still supports castro, we call that a democracy.

[chauncy republicans]

KKK=cuba=terrorists

KKK is an extremist right organisation IN NO WAY connected with cuba. The KKK hates commies. You probably fit a lot better between the KKK since you hate commies and you generalize muslims every f*cking day.

Why is cuba terrorists? YOU supported Batista, the extremist right motherf*cker who exploited his people FAR WORSE than Castro. The cuban revolution was a war of the people. A 'democratic' war. Don't forget that a lot of people STILL support castro. Shooting dissidents is bad, of course, but all the dictators YOU install do the same. F*cking holier-than-thou mentality. Would you say the cuban revolutionaries are terrorists?

Phuuh, invade cuba. You tried it before, you failed (Bay of Pigs ). Why bomb every country different than you? Why bomb every country that does not have the american way of life? Let them be. The majority still supports castro, we call that a democracy.
The education system here in America needs a lot of work...as you can very well see.
Funny nobody here mentioned the good he has done for the whole North American and South American continents! There are doctors (in the U.S.) who got all there medical schooling for free in Cuba. People who in the U.S. would never have been able to get that education got it for free in Cuba, then was sent back to their native nation to help treat other poor people. This is a state-sponcered program in Cuba, and they train (for free) people who never could pay for that kind of education. He will train those from any North/South American country even America!

[chauncy republicans]

KKK=cuba=terrorists

KKK is an extremist right organisation IN NO WAY connected with cuba. The KKK hates commies. You probably fit a lot better between the KKK since you hate commies and you generalize muslims every f*cking day.

Why is cuba terrorists? YOU supported Batista, the extremist right motherf*cker who exploited his people FAR WORSE than Castro. The cuban revolution was a war of the people. A 'democratic' war. Don't forget that a lot of people STILL support castro. Shooting dissidents is bad, of course, but all the dictators YOU install do the same. F*cking holier-than-thou mentality. Would you say the cuban revolutionaries are terrorists?

Phuuh, invade cuba. You tried it before, you failed (Bay of Pigs ). Why bomb every country different than you? Why bomb every country that does not have the american way of life? Let them be. The majority still supports castro, we call that a democracy.
Leaders America supported in history...

Mussolini
Hitler
Saddam Hussein
These three were admired at first....
Sandanistas
Batista lol
Thats all I can think of right now...

[Old300]

Are you people serious? Do you really believe that Cuba is some sort of progressive workers' paradise?

Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Cubans die every year trying to get to the US on home made rafts. And still they come. Those who don't die in the attempt are put in prison.

What would make people risk so much?

I suggest to those of you who've praised Castro's Cuba to consider the possibility that they flee because it is an impoverished police state where there is no freedom (seriously - absolutely none) and no opportunity for a better life.

And before people reply to tell me that Cuba is impoverished because of the US, I'd ask that they consider how Cuba manages to fund its supposedly world-class health and education systems; and how, exactly, we are to treat leaders of countries that are pledged to the propagation of a revolution that would destroy our way of life and, therefore, that of every other free country on earth. Moreover, do you blame the impoverishment of Eastern bloc European states on the US? What about North Korea? The only logical explanation for Cuba's deplorable state of existence is communism and the beast who enforces it.

Cubans are imprisoned in one of the last Stalinist jail states. Ronald Reagan freed hundreds of millions of people in those kinds of places; we have unfinished business to our south.

Cuba Libre

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Cubans are imprisoned in one of the last Stalinist jail states. Ronald Reagan freed hundreds of millions of people in those kinds of places; we have unfinished business to our south.
This is news to me I never knew Ronald Reagan did so much for the world.

[henksmoeder]

Are you people serious? Do you really believe that Cuba is some sort of progressive workers' paradise?

Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Cubans die every year trying to get to the US on home made rafts. And still they come. Those who don't die in the attempt are put in prison.

What would make people risk so much?

I suggest to those of you who've praised Castro's Cuba to consider the possibility that they flee because it is an impoverished police state where there is no freedom (seriously - absolutely none) and no opportunity for a better life.

And before people reply to tell me that Cuba is impoverished because of the US, I'd ask that they consider how Cuba manages to fund its supposedly world-class health and education systems; and how, exactly, we are to treat leaders of countries that are pledged to the propagation of a revolution that would destroy our way of life and, therefore, that of every other free country on earth. Moreover, do you blame the impoverishment of Eastern bloc European states on the US? What about North Korea? The only logical explanation for Cuba's deplorable state of existence is communism and the beast who enforces it.

Cubans are imprisoned in one of the last Stalinist jail states. Ronald Reagan freed hundreds of millions of people in those kinds of places; we have unfinished business to our south.

Cuba Libre

lol, stalinist :backhand: read before talk dude. Cuba is not stalinist.

No it's not a workers paradise. But it isn't as bad as all the other dictator you guys install. There is quality healthcare and education for free for everyone. The income distribution is far more progressive than any western country. And as I stated earlier, the majority still supports Castro.

Now I'm not saying I support Castro. But there are definatly a lot of things that we can learn from Cuba.

Oh, and one more thing. THe US have supported the cuban revolution for a small amount of time. Until they realised they were marxists. Then they suddenly started giving more arms to batista. Good Read: Che Guevara, a revolutionairy life by Jon Lee Anderson.

[martinexsquaddie]

compared to sove of the assholes the US goverments have decided are there Friends
e.g. those lovely argentinan uniformed goons its a pity those scum were not in the falklands .
Castros a nasty commie dictator.
But he isn't pineapple face or the bloke the sandista's replaced or the Shah etc etc.
if I have to be a down trodden peasant I'd think I'd take castros cuba over one of america's staunch anti communist allies :(
A) castro won no more civil wars
B) castro maybe commit many crimes Death squads is not one of them
C) health care works :roll:

[Old300]

Are you people serious? Do you really believe that Cuba is some sort of progressive workers' paradise?

Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Cubans die every year trying to get to the US on home made rafts. And still they come. Those who don't die in the attempt are put in prison.

What would make people risk so much?

I suggest to those of you who've praised Castro's Cuba to consider the possibility that they flee because it is an impoverished police state where there is no freedom (seriously - absolutely none) and no opportunity for a better life.

And before people reply to tell me that Cuba is impoverished because of the US, I'd ask that they consider how Cuba manages to fund its supposedly world-class health and education systems; and how, exactly, we are to treat leaders of countries that are pledged to the propagation of a revolution that would destroy our way of life and, therefore, that of every other free country on earth. Moreover, do you blame the impoverishment of Eastern bloc European states on the US? What about North Korea? The only logical explanation for Cuba's deplorable state of existence is communism and the beast who enforces it.

Cubans are imprisoned in one of the last Stalinist jail states. Ronald Reagan freed hundreds of millions of people in those kinds of places; we have unfinished business to our south.

Cuba Libre

lol, stalinist :backhand: read before talk dude. Cuba is not stalinist.

No it's not a workers paradise. But it isn't as bad as all the other dictator you guys install. There is quality healthcare and education for free for everyone. The income distribution is far more progressive than any western country. And as I stated earlier, the majority still supports Castro.

Now I'm not saying I support Castro. But there are definatly a lot of things that we can learn from Cuba.

Oh, and one more thing. THe US have supported the cuban revolution for a small amount of time. Until they realised they were marxists. Then they suddenly started giving more arms to batista. Good Read: Che Guevara, a revolutionairy life by Jon Lee Anderson.

I always thought that - basically, I know these things are extremely complicated but, again, basically - Stalinism was a form of Marxism that emphasized a cult of personality and extreme political repression (jailing of dissidents, a gulag system, etc). That seems to encapsulate Castro's Cuba very well indeed.

One more thing: education and health care are free in America, too. Seriously. Education is free to anyone through public schools and health care is free to those who can't afford it through various local, state, and federal programs including, but by no means limited to, Medicare and Medicaid.

Oh yeah, we also have, uh, freedom of speech and religion; limited government; freedom of movement; political opposition parties; a massive middle class; a rather large wealthy class; and poor people who have color televisions, cars, and an obesity problem.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Man, this thread has turned into a side trip to the twilight zone. Cuba has a top notch healthcare system eh? Ever see the teeth on the Cubans that make it across to Florida? I suspect not. As was the case with the USSR, communism falls far short of treating all the same. "Comrades" they are not. Top party officials may get great healthcare, but those who are obligated to work the tobacco or sugarcane fields cannot expect the same level of service, nor will they ever have the opportunity to be anything more than farmers.

Castro has been an utter disaster and failure for the people of Cuba. He rules by violence and intimidation, he has sucked the country dry, even while suckling at the tit of the USSR for many decades. He is no hero, and Cuba is no model for anybody except maybe North Korea. One only has to look at the thousands of men, women and children who risk their very lives to flee that island sh*thole - just to start over in the US with nothing but the clothes on their backs. It still beats staying in Cuba.

[henksmoeder]

Not true jackson. First years after the revolution went very well. They had financial support from China, Russia, and other communist or leftist countries. He didn't suck his country out than. Nowadays he lives rich, but still the overall income partition is far more equal in Cuba.

Wow you seen teeth of a refuge. I live in Holland. My uncle has the worst teeth in the world. The teeth of a cuban refuge don't say anything about healthcare system. To go even further. They sit on their rafts for a while without fresh vegetables. You get a disease scheurbuik in dutch (sorry don't know the english name). It means your teeth start falling out and looking ugly.

[Old300]

Not true jackson. First years after the revolution went very well. They had financial support from China, Russia, and other communist or leftist countries. He didn't suck his country out than. Nowadays he lives rich, but still the overall income partition is far more equal in Cuba.

Wow you seen teeth of a refuge. I live in Holland. My uncle has the worst teeth in the world. The teeth of a cuban refuge don't say anything about healthcare system. To go even further. They sit on their rafts for a while without fresh vegetables. You get a disease scheurbuik in dutch (sorry don't know the english name). It means your teeth start falling out and looking ugly.

It's 90 miles, bud. Their teeth don't rot on the ride to freedom.

I don't know about their teeth. Maybe they just don't follow their dentist's instructions on proper brushing and flossing.

All I know is that there are a hell of a lot of people who risk and lose their lives trying to escape that country. I also know that people with AIDs are quarantined in concentration camps. I know, too, that there is no political, intellectual, or journalistic freedom. I also know that Castro has indeed achieved income equality on his island gulag: everybody's equally poor.

What a squalid, disgusting cess pool of moral equivalence it must take to admire a man who keeps his people under lock and key, in service to an ideology that has taken more lives than any other, including National Socialism.

I may be guilty of good old fashioned Texan simplisme, but that's how I see it.

[henksmoeder]

Look dude, if we start talking about the amount of deaths that communism has cost (BTW, there never was TRUE communism). Than let's also talk about the amount of deaths that the western way of life has cost. People die daily growing crops for us in third world countries, not to mention the amount of wars we fought.

Furthermore, of course i do not approve his dictator manners! Galugs, concentration camps is wrong (guantanamo bay fits perfectly, now we know why they picked that spot :roll: )


I also know that Castro has indeed achieved income equality on his island gulag: everybody's equally poor.

Yep, at least equal. Creates solidarity. Would be worse if most would be extremly poor and others extremely rich. That would lead to more social unrest, more crime, more etc. Not even to mention that it wouldn't be moraly just for someone to own a lot if your country members don't own a penny.

At least Castro is a better alternative than Batista was in those days. I'll repeat it again: Castro still has majority behind him.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Not true jackson. First years after the revolution went very well. They had financial support from China, Russia, and other communist or leftist countries. He didn't suck his country out than. Nowadays he lives rich, but still the overall income partition is far more equal in Cuba.

Wow you seen teeth of a refuge. I live in Holland. My uncle has the worst teeth in the world. The teeth of a cuban refuge don't say anything about healthcare system. To go even further. They sit on their rafts for a while without fresh vegetables. You get a disease scheurbuik in dutch (sorry don't know the english name). It means your teeth start falling out and looking ugly.

I lived in Miami FL for many years, and saw people floating over on rafts, trees, even cars with barrels strapped to them. The people are desperate to get out. Why would human beings risk the lives of their entire families if Cuba was so wonderful? Children often drown on these crossings. These folks leave with nothing. No possessions, no money...all they have is hope.

And as Old300 said, these teeth don't fall out on the 4 day raft ride over from Cuba. They fall out from years of neglect. And yes, dentistry is very much a part of the healthcare system. Like everything else in the system, it's tuned to the lowest common denominator. The healthcare system does a good job at providing basic needs...not providing excellence. IMHO that is not an "excellent" healhcare system. It's a "basic" healthcare system.

How many of Europe's elite fly to Cuba to have difficult operations performed? What medical breakthroughs have happened in Cuba? Well, then again, unlimited access to political prisoners for medical experimentation has to give them some kind of edge :lol:


Nowadays he lives rich, but still the overall income partition is far more equal in Cuba.

Yes, I agree, all are nearly equal -everybody is dirt poor. There are a moneyed few, but they do not get there because of their ability or drive...they prosper in Castro's system by supporting Castro. They turn in their neighbors. They pay kickbacks to Castro's cronies. And in return, they may even get to be one of the very very very few people in Cuba who own a car! Most Cubans use horse & carriage to get around. Or hitch a ride on the back of an open air truck. Ah, the prosperous and glittering island of Cuba. Support the system and go to college! Or you could disagree with Fidel and wind up cutting sugarcane for the rest of your life.

For a good comparison, and to see what a wonderland Fidel has made, you can compare annual purchasing power; In the Netherlands, annual purchasing power per capita is $27,200, in Cuba it's $2700. How can you possibly argue that Cuba is any kind of success?

Hope they don't spend that $2700 all in one place! Then again, it's not like there's anything to buy.

[martinexsquaddie]

lets see
Haiti strong anti communist friend mayhem murder and poverty
cuba nasty commies poverty
h'mm given the choice between poverty and death I'll think I'll take poverty :roll:

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I have never been to Cuba but my aunt and uncle went for a two week break there about 3 years ago and found the locals to be a fairly friendly if not bored bunch of people and they were allowed to move around without any restrictions. The big things that they noticed was how dilapadated Havana was and the complete lack of consumer goods in the shops, what the did not see was the biting poverty that can be seen almost everywhere in Central America. There are Cubans who will risk life and limb to get to the US but at the same time if Mexico was separated from the US by 90 miles of water the same number of Mexicans would also take that risk and remember Mexico is a democracy.
If I was an American I would certainly not get my panties in a twist over Cuba, I would be more concerned by the oppressive regimes that my country supports and arms. I just hope that if Castro dies and some kind of power vacum develops and order breaks down, that the US does the right thing and restores some form of order and leave them to get on with life and not encourage a load of carpet baggers to descend on Cuba and turn the island into a large casino / whorehouse or retirement condo.

[fdt]

My father spent in Cuba about 6 months in 1989 and then about a month in 1995 (as engineer working at some staem turbine or smth in one of Cuba's sugar factories).

His impressions were...

1989 - just like in Poland (then) ... extremely nice people, extremely poor people, all present political police (in factories, offices, hotels), loooooong lines for food, rationed food (rice, some veggies and rum... lots of rum), all present friendship with Soviet Union (Soviets were buying Cuba's sugar for strange prices and giving them oil and some stuff in return). Omnipotent and all present Castro family Fidel on the street posters Raul as a secret police chief).

1995 - as the Soviet economical help stopped, everything remnained uchchanged, except food rations were smaller, cars have almost disappeared from streets replaced by chinese bikes and ... rum was almost impossible to get.

When I wanted to go to Cuba for holidays, father told me... son You don't need to go to Cuba to see real socialism in action. You are big enough to remember this from Your own experience. Then I asked my friend who imports from Cuba all the "latino-ethno" stuff and goes there every 3 months. He told me don't go: Hotels are enclaves of wealth surrounded by poverty and stuffed with police confidents. Every normal stuff like coke or smth costs twice as in Europe, people are still very friendly and very poor. Everyone wants to work with tourists, but officially it's difficult. The hotel and tourism business is controlled by Castro (including Ruz family too) family. They and only they let in the foreign hotel companies and have a share. Dollar is an "semi-official" currency. Prostitution... no problemo and cheap. In fact there are two economies in place: official one (for average poor Cuban, unchanged since 1989) and the other "Dollar" one. This "other" one is controlled by local mafias who are controlled by local police who is controlled by Raul Castro (what is a cause of relatively low - almost European - level of crime in Cuba)... Cubans are proud of their free medicare... and it is presumably at really good level.... but other public services are a disaster... etc. etc.

So I've chosen Dominicana that time...

[OB Kenobi]

Leaders America supported in history...

Mussolini
Hitler
Saddam Hussein
These three were admired at first....
Sandanistas
Batista lol
Thats all I can think of right now...

Pinochet
Noriega
many more...

"If they turn on the radars we're going to blow up their goddamn SAMs (surface-to-air missiles). They know we own their country. We own their airspace... We dictate the way they live and talk. And that's what's great about America right now. It's a good thing, especially when there's a lot of oil out there [Iraq] we need."

— U.S. Brig. General William Looney
Washington Post, August 30, 1999


"I believe that if we had and would keep our dirty, bloody, dollar soaked fingers out of the business of these [Third World] nations so full of depressed, exploited people, they will arrive at a solution of their own. And if unfortunately their revolution must be of the violent type because the "haves" refuse to share with the "have-nots" by any peaceful method, at least what they get will be their own, and not the American style, which they don't want and above all don't want crammed down their throats by Americans."

— General David Sharp
former United States Marine Commandant
1966

"I will never apologize for the United States of America — I don't care what the facts are."

— President George Bush
1988

[2Sheds_Jackson]

...and your point being? Don't be lame and turn this into another anti-America thread. Stay on topic. And what the hell has any of that got to do with Cuba anyway? Castro is good because America is bad? Or is it...well, all of Latin America is a dump, and Cuba is no different? Give me a break. Personally, I think the Cuban people deserve the chance to determine their own destiny, not have it handed to them by Castro. Obviously, some here share his delusions of grandeur, and feel that the Cuban people are children who can't be trusted to govern themselves.

As fdt said, the hotels and resorts of Cuba are islands of Western style consumerism in a vast sea of poverty. The Cuban police state works hard to keep the riff-raff out, and only the best and brightest (and properly indoctrinated) are allowed to interact with the tourists. You cannot judge Cuba by what you see from the hotel balcony. It's an illusion - every bit as much an illusion as what tourists to North Korea will see.

None of you Castro apologists would last two seconds in Cuba. Do you think you'd have the freedom to express your anti-government views there? Think again. Even if the government, who monitors your communications, didn't find you, your neighbors would turn you in to the party officials for an extra food ration. I can just see you muttering under your breath as you sweat in the 100 degree heat of a Cuban summer. You’re endlessly cutting the sugarcane - it's rough texture cuts your hands & you bleed onto the sticky piles of cut cane. All the while saying to yourself..."papa Fidel has made us all equal & we have a fine medical system".

Castro paints himself as a cartoonish father figure. In reality he's a cruel and ruthless dictator.

It absolutely amazes me that people would have the temerity to defend a man who would instantly jail them. Or would you all just be good little party members, put on your red pin, and tow the line for uncle Fidel?

[pinkeye]

Not true jackson. First years after the revolution went very well. They had financial support from China, Russia, and other communist or leftist countries. He didn't suck his country out than. Nowadays he lives rich, but still the overall income partition is far more equal in Cuba.

Wow you seen teeth of a refuge. I live in Holland. My uncle has the worst teeth in the world. The teeth of a cuban refuge don't say anything about healthcare system. To go even further. They sit on their rafts for a while without fresh vegetables. You get a disease scheurbuik in dutch (sorry don't know the english name). It means your teeth start falling out and looking ugly.

It's 90 miles, bud. Their teeth don't rot on the ride to freedom.

I don't know about their teeth. Maybe they just don't follow their dentist's instructions on proper brushing and flossing.

All I know is that there are a hell of a lot of people who risk and lose their lives trying to escape that country. I also know that people with AIDs are quarantined in concentration camps. I know, too, that there is no political, intellectual, or journalistic freedom. I also know that Castro has indeed achieved income equality on his island gulag: everybody's equally poor.

What a squalid, disgusting cess pool of moral equivalence it must take to admire a man who keeps his people under lock and key, in service to an ideology that has taken more lives than any other, including National Socialism.

I may be guilty of good old fashioned Texan simplisme, but that's how I see it.

first of all, cuban health care has consisently been ranked among the best in the world, despite the economic crisis that has gripped the country since 1989. obviously the health care system has suffered due to economic malaise afflicting the country, but any assertion that cuban health care is terrible is easily discredited.

second, the economic crisis is due to three factors: collapse of the soviet union, the american embargo, and castro's adherence to a particular economic model. the three go hand-in-hand.

third, your assertion that communism is responsible for more deaths than any other ideology is thoroughly ignorant and erroneous for about a million different reasons. according to some research, american foreign policy since the 1950s is directly and indirectly responsible for more civilian deaths than soviet foreign policy of the same time period. ever heard of latin america? did you know american policy supported the khmer rouge? zaire's mobutu? these are all well-documented cases. before you start making accusations, you should realise that we all have blood on our hands, despite what we think are our best intentions.

castro is indeed a wanker, but so are the rabid anti-castro morons who cannot put forth a credible, rational argument. communism was a beautiful idea (in theory) that never really emerged for numerous reasons, so sod off with your grade-school-level political analyses.

cuba is not a utopia, but neither is the u.s., canada, the u.k., france, australia, etc. you seem to forget that the one defining characteristic of all political, social, and religious regimes is that they are run by human beings. we may have different ideas, but we are all governed by the same negative forces: greed, jealousy, hatred, and the list goes on. essentially, we are all wankers...

[BlackRain]

The contrast between the thriving tourism trade in Cuba and the living standards of most Cubans appears to be eroding what little rank-and-file support remains for the ideals of Fidel Castro's revolution. Today's proletariat is mostly concerned with making money.

Tourism has overtaken sugar, rum, tobacco, nickel and even foreign remittances as the No. 1 hard-currency earner

So much for a "Worker's Paradise".

When Castro dies, Cuban's will truly be free.

[martinexsquaddie]

Castro is indeed a wanker
BUT the good old usa has encouraged terrorist attacks against cuba.
Backed people who make who castro in comparision look like a suitable babysitter for my children rofl.
So although castro is a complete git alot of the people who would like to get rid of him are even worse :( . Lets face Bastia was'nt exactly a bastion of democracy was he and the US backed him did'nt they :roll:
when castro dies lets hope the cubans get to choose there future rather than having free market advisors rush in (who did such a stand up job in russia :( )
Mind you read a sci-fi book where somebody came up with a viable life extension processI quote " the americans tried to kill him so many times they gave up and decided to wait for the old goat to kill himself. there going insane now :D )

[Old300]

Not true jackson. First years after the revolution went very well. They had financial support from China, Russia, and other communist or leftist countries. He didn't suck his country out than. Nowadays he lives rich, but still the overall income partition is far more equal in Cuba.

Wow you seen teeth of a refuge. I live in Holland. My uncle has the worst teeth in the world. The teeth of a cuban refuge don't say anything about healthcare system. To go even further. They sit on their rafts for a while without fresh vegetables. You get a disease scheurbuik in dutch (sorry don't know the english name). It means your teeth start falling out and looking ugly.

It's 90 miles, bud. Their teeth don't rot on the ride to freedom.

I don't know about their teeth. Maybe they just don't follow their dentist's instructions on proper brushing and flossing.

All I know is that there are a hell of a lot of people who risk and lose their lives trying to escape that country. I also know that people with AIDs are quarantined in concentration camps. I know, too, that there is no political, intellectual, or journalistic freedom. I also know that Castro has indeed achieved income equality on his island gulag: everybody's equally poor.

What a squalid, disgusting cess pool of moral equivalence it must take to admire a man who keeps his people under lock and key, in service to an ideology that has taken more lives than any other, including National Socialism.

I may be guilty of good old fashioned Texan simplisme, but that's how I see it.

first of all, cuban health care has consisently been ranked among the best in the world, despite the economic crisis that has gripped the country since 1989. obviously the health care system has suffered due to economic malaise afflicting the country, but any assertion that cuban health care is terrible is easily discredited.

second, the economic crisis is due to three factors: collapse of the soviet union, the american embargo, and castro's adherence to a particular economic model. the three go hand-in-hand.

third, your assertion that communism is responsible for more deaths than any other ideology is thoroughly ignorant and erroneous for about a million different reasons. according to some research, american foreign policy since the 1950s is directly and indirectly responsible for more civilian deaths than soviet foreign policy of the same time period. ever heard of latin america? did you know american policy supported the khmer rouge? zaire's mobutu? these are all well-documented cases. before you start making accusations, you should realise that we all have blood on our hands, despite what we think are our best intentions.

castro is indeed a wanker, but so are the rabid anti-castro morons who cannot put forth a credible, rational argument. communism was a beautiful idea (in theory) that never really emerged for numerous reasons, so sod off with your grade-school-level political analyses.

cuba is not a utopia, but neither is the u.s., canada, the u.k., france, australia, etc. you seem to forget that the one defining characteristic of all political, social, and religious regimes is that they are run by human beings. we may have different ideas, but we are all governed by the same negative forces: greed, jealousy, hatred, and the list goes on. essentially, we are all wankers...

One of the difficult responsibilities that comes with wealth, power, and importance - and this is true of both people and countries - is the duty to choose between the lesser of two evils. It isn't possible not to choose; your position and cross-obligations demand it. Nor is it possible to hide your choice, because everyone's eyes are on you. What you must do is say, when faced with a terrible choice (like that between Iraq and Iran 25 years ago), "Saddam Hussein is a bastard. But he's not a radical Shiite mullah who held dozens of our people hostage. Nor is he trying to lead an international revolution aimed at the destruction of my country. We don't want him to become the client of the Soviets, either, because the only thing worse than a radical Islamic republic is a Soviet puppet state bordering the world's largest reserve of crude oil."

That isn't to say that my country should be absolved completely of any responsibility that it has for supporting unsavory regimes at various times and places last century. But it is to make the grown-up observation that even the best of us sometimes must do things that we don't want to do.

What distinguishes the US from, say, Cuba, is that our stated aim and manifest accomplishment of the past 60 years has been to roll-back tyranny all over the world. Sometimes murderous scumbags help us do that.

In any event, I think we should judge countries by two things: their principles and the results thereof.

Cuba is dedicated to a one-world utopia of economic and social equality. OK, great. But it has pursued that goal through the brutalization and impoverishment of its people; aided by the support of the single most brutal political project in history - Soviet communism. Moreover, its people are poor, desperate to leave, and forbidden to express or better themselves.

The US is dedicated to a world of economic and social opportunity and the rule of law under the rubric of state sovereignty. I'd call it a utopia, but it actually exists and I'm living in it. Anyone can become rich, famous and powerful, according to his ambition, work ethic, and talents. We've helped several dozen other countries come closer to achieving the same goal. We have a lot of poor people, but (according to the Census Bureau) most of them are over-nourished and have household appliances that many other societies consider upper-middle-class luxuries - cars, washing machines, satellite t.v., etc.); and anyway the average impoverished person in the US stays in poverty for only 4 months. Meanwhile, the vast majority of the country gets on with improving their standard of living, enjoying freedom, and funding and manning armed services that guarantee the security of lesser countries the world over.

There is no comparison between the US and Cuba. Has US foreign policy killed innocent people? Yes. Has it meant to? No. Has US foreign policy saved orders-of-magnitude more lives than it has taken? Of course.

And you damn well know that.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

So I'm condemned for my ignorant grade school ranting & then somebody cites "some research" that shows America did bad things. Yes, that's credible analysis all right. Well, I've got some research that shows they landed on the moon. Prove me wrong.

Again, this discussion is not about American policy in SouthEast Asia 30 years ago. It's about Cuba. Spewing leftist vitriol that is meaningless to this discussion does nothing to shore up Castro's island gulag.

Or I suppose we can use this thread to complain about how bad the fall lineup on TV is- and use it to compare and contrast against Cuba.

Castro is a jerk, but don't forget how ****ty that new rappers-in-suburbia show on FOX looks. You can't say Fidel is such an idiot when those to are much, much dumber than he is. So he's not so bad, see?

Pardon me if I don't buy the myth of the wonderful Cuban healthcare system. It is not an "open" system - data is not freely available at the same level that it is for other nations. Data is not publicly available...it is furnished at the whim of the government...the same government that runs the system. Ever heard of impartial oversight? They haven't. The fox is watching the hen house, and some just buy into it because it suits their political leanings. To believe that data at face value is beyond naive.

The most rabid anti-Castro people are....Cubans. His own people! What a ringing endorsement. It's kind of amusing how somebody can sit at a comfortable PC terminal, probably in an air-conditioned room, with plenty of food, the freedom to determine your own destiny, thousands of miles away from the problem and call them the morons.

[Andrekid]

Cuba apoiada

[BlackRain]

martinexsquaddie

the good old usa has encouraged terrorist attacks against cuba.

Do mind citing some specifics? I don't really recall us blowing up Cuban civilian airliners recently. Oh, yeah. That was the Cubans shooting down private aircraft.



So although castro is a complete git alot of the people who would like to get rid of him are even worse

Who are you referring to?


Backed people who make who castro in comparision look like a suitable babysitter for my children

Do these same people have a track record of begging Kruschev to go to pre-emptive nuclear war against the USA and killing millions of men, women, and children?

[BlackRain]

martinexsquaddie

the good old usa has encouraged terrorist attacks against cuba.

Do mind citing some specifics? I don't really recall us blowing up Cuban civilian airliners recently. Oh, yeah. That was the Cubans shooting down private aircraft.



So although castro is a complete git alot of the people who would like to get rid of him are even worse

Who are you referring to?


Backed people who make who castro in comparision look like a suitable babysitter for my children

Do these same people have a track record of begging Kruschev to go to pre-emptive nuclear war against the USA and killing millions of men, women, and children?