Is effective patrolling in counter insurgency operations underestimated?

[Killerkai1]

I have the read the evidence of military attache John Crosland in the Milosevic trial who says the Yugoslav/MUP forces rarely patrolled out of bases that they set up in territory they took from the KLA during the Kosovo conflict, meaning that control slipped back and forth with the KLA. Is effective patrolling underestimated in fighting counter insurgency conflict? The British were apparently very efficent in they patrolling methods in Northern Ireland. Crosland's evidence about the Serbs military tactics are below;
Thanks

http://www.un.org/icty/transe66/050113IT.htm

[Red-Phos]

Is this Johnny Crosland the ex 2 Para Officer?

[Killerkai1]

I think he saw action in the Falklands, yes, he said he was under fire there somewhere in this transcript or another one.

[Red-Phos]

I think he saw action in the Falklands, yes, he said he was under fire there somewhere in this transcript or another one.
Hes a ****ing nutter.And a good Officer.

[deagle]

patrols are only effective when employed correctly. regular patrols PRO - presence, CON - patterns.

you try to avoid being amushed, and rather do raids in stead.

[Power_serj]

I've also been wondering. When you see videos on the net, a lot of times it seems as once contact is made, they try to break contact ASAP. Is this to avoid being sucked into an ambush? I mean, it seems pointless to go out in a patrol just to run away when being fired at. Looking forward to answers by soldiers, but anyone can feel free to throw in their opinion.

[ADK031]

I've also been wondering. When you see videos on the net, a lot of times it seems as once contact is made, they try to break contact ASAP. Is this to avoid being sucked into an ambush? I mean, it seems pointless to go out in a patrol just to run away when being fired at. Looking forward to answers by soldiers, but anyone can feel free to throw in their opinion.

I would gather that those videos you saw were recce or recconaissance patrols. And when ambushed during a recce patrol the SOP is to break contact due to the size of the patrol (generally 4 man) not being geared towards offensive action.

[macdaddy78]

A patrol is either a recce or fighting one but not both.

[Power_serj]

Thanks for the answers.

[Lokos]

I have the read the evidence of military attache John Crosland in the Milosevic trial who says the Yugoslav/MUP forces rarely patrolled out of bases that they set up in territory they took from the KLA during the Kosovo conflict, meaning that control slipped back and forth with the KLA. Is effective patrolling underestimated in fighting counter insurgency conflict? The British were apparently very efficent in they patrolling methods in Northern Ireland. Crosland's evidence about the Serbs military tactics are below;
Thanks


Killerkai, one thing you must keep in mind that this gentleman primarily discusses Serb tactics in the period of March 1998 - June 1998. This was the period during which our strength in Kosovo included roughly 30,000 personnel, many of them armed police. Obviously, this had implications for the scale of operations that could be conducted, and the security that could be afforded the province as a whole. By the end of July, however, major combat formations were being activated and deployed in the province, as a result of increasingly audacious KLA activities. The sweeps which were conducted towards the end of the year, certainly, were more successful in clearing the landscape of the insurgents.

L.

[Killerkai1]

Lokos makes an excellent point. Crosland refers to the first stage of the counter insurgency when Serb MUP and Army strategy was at it's most disorganised. Post July 1998 the MUP and army began to lock down into a more effective plan to combat the KLA. I think the point about patrolling is that how the US conducts raids and patrols in 2003 is very different to how it would conduct them now, its a learning process.

[martinexsquaddie]

In ulster lots of heavily armed patrols with no set pattern = very tired cold and wet squaddies PIRA and friends stayed in pub.
fewer regular patrols with less numbers = pira coming out to shoot at you.
"dominate the ground" see very little of enemy there not stupid they will only attack if they think they can get away with it.

[Mate]

Ok...now speaking from the other side :).
During that period (March-June 98),Serbs only raised checkpoints on the main road and key village entrances.....rarelly going out on patrols.
We (KLA) used to harras them (with snipers,RPG),thinking that they would go out and take out some more,sometimes they felt for that trick sometimes they didn`t.
But also,many times we used to wait for the Serbs to make the shift-change and when their supplies came...once we captured a tractor (Rakovica 33 :)) which was bringing the supplies.
Lokos is right during this period (March-June) there were only armed police manning the checkpoints....after that hell broke loose.

[Killerkai1]

Mate, how did the Serbs MUP/ army differ after the June period?, I know the army become more involved but was it the case that the MUP became more aggressive or intelligent in in its patrols?

[Mate]

Mate, how did the Serbs MUP/ army differ after the June period?, I know the army become more involved but was it the case that the MUP became more aggressive or intelligent in in its patrols?
Well.....after that period (July 98),the MUP had the armies support in artillery,logistics maybe,planning the attacks,and launched major offensives through out the region,sweep and clean tactics...and they suceeded.
MUP had the area of operations within the region,the army was responsible in the border regions,so basicly it was a mix with MUP and Army after July 98.

[Killerkai1]

Mate and Lokos, (everyone else)

Thank you for those contributions
Killerkai

[pachador]

for COIN, more effective is cash rewards D.O.A. for information of rebel leaders.

related to cash rewards is good intelligence network. with good intelligence, little need for patrols other than raiding to capture the hiding rebels based on tips from informants.

with good intel, the army can ambush the rebels instead of other way around.

BTW, patrolling is tiring, if soldiers are overweight and carry heavy stuff. travel light. its easy to retreat too if your not overweight . no fatty foods =)

[Mordecai]

for COIN, more effective is cash rewards D.O.A. for information of rebel leaders.

related to cash rewards is good intelligence network. with good intelligence, little need for patrols other than raiding to capture the hiding rebels based on tips from informants.

with good intel, the army can ambush the rebels instead of other way around.

BTW, patrolling is tiring, if soldiers are overweight and carry heavy stuff. travel light. its easy to retreat too if your not overweight . no fatty foods =)

You have no idea what in the name of God you are talking about, or you just have the inability to convey your thoughts in English. Either way your comments bear the need for some correction...

While Intel is important in any conflict, it takes controlling ones battlespace to win COIN conflicts. Without it the insurgents have carte blanc to do whatever they will since noone is present to prevent this. The hearts and minds and the trust which accompanies these must be won before any headway can be made towards ending a COIN conflict. To do this soldiers must leave their FOB's and/or armored vehicles and put boots on the ground walking amonst the people... Soldiers must meet with and talk to the local populace. They must be seen running clinics, playing with the children, walking the alleyways, etc...

While paying for intel is SOMETIMES useful, the more precise/vettable intel will always come from those persons who want the fighting to end and whom wish to live in peace without fear of reprisal from the insurgents themselves.

Your comments on patrolling as a practice doesnt even deserve a response...

I think that about covers everything...

Crip

[Laconian]

I'm sure others more versed in this art will correct me if I am wrong, but I compare patrolling in a counterinsurgency, especially in an urban environment, with police patrols. Beat cops out there dealing with the public glean intel by the single fact that they are out and about. One of the reasons genuine old time beat cops (and now community policing) methods work is because of the presence. Seeing cops day to day will make locals go to them with information. I've seen it happen a bunch.

While paying for information is a practice, more reliable information comes from actual eyes or information independently verified if possible. Informants are not always extremely trustworthy and have to be vetted.

Once enough intel is gathered DA can take place in the form of raids, searches, sweeps, etc. Or a presence is created in the area that isolates the bad guy from the rest of the population and he moves on or is picked up. What creates this atmosphere is the presence of the good guys in the area, patrolling, whether directed or general.

Of course this is extremely simplistic, but the principles are very much the same I think. As far as the physical nature of patrolling I agree with Crip.

[pachador]

i did not say no patrolling should be done. what i meant is if you just go out and patrol and i mean foot patrol- not patrol in the comfort of your vehicle, and you have no idea where the enemy is, and just 'hoping' for contact really gets to be tiring if you do it everyday ,year in and year out. I'm talking about doing this in a COIN zone for decades ,not just days or months or years but for decades. patrolling practices also depends if your in a rich mechanized western army or in a poor 3rd world army with few available vehicles. and definitely, if your fat you won't be able to keep up on foot patrols much less run unless the fatboy is patrolling using a vehicle.




You have no idea what in the name of God you are talking about, or you just have the inability to convey your thoughts in English. Either way your comments bear the need for some correction...

While Intel is important in any conflict, it takes controlling ones battlespace to win COIN conflicts. Without it the insurgents have carte blanc to do whatever they will since noone is present to prevent this. The hearts and minds and the trust which accompanies these must be won before any headway can be made towards ending a COIN conflict. To do this soldiers must leave their FOB's and/or armored vehicles and put boots on the ground walking amonst the people... Soldiers must meet with and talk to the local populace. They must be seen running clinics, playing with the children, walking the alleyways, etc...

While paying for intel is SOMETIMES useful, the more precise/vettable intel will always come from those persons who want the fighting to end and whom wish to live in peace without fear of reprisal from the insurgents themselves.

Your comments on patrolling as a practice doesnt even deserve a response...

I think that about covers everything...

Crip

[Mordecai]

i did not say no patrolling should be done. what i meant is if you just go out and patrol and i mean foot patrol- not patrol in the comfort of your vehicle, and you have no idea where the enemy is, and just 'hoping' for contact really gets to be tiring if you do it everyday ,year in and year out. I'm talking about doing this in a COIN zone for decades ,not just days or months or years but for decades. patrolling practices also depends if your in a rich mechanized western army or in a poor 3rd world army with few available vehicles. and definitely, if your fat you won't be able to keep up on foot patrols much less run unless the fatboy is patrolling using a vehicle.


Your initial argument was there is, "little need for patrols other than raiding to capture the hiding rebels based on tips from informants" because "for COIN, more effective is cash rewards D.O.A. for information of rebel leaders." Given this your position, as I understand it, is that "other than raiding to capture the hiding rebels based on tips from informants" there is little need for foot patrols. Furthermore, the type of patrolling needed in COIN ops isnt dependent on the size or MTOE of the country involved in fighting the insurgency. It is also not based on the length of time the fighting has been taking place. It is however based in whole on whats needed to win the conflict as I mentioned in my previous post.

Your line of thinking is fundamentally wrong. Given this, a response outlining the "hows and whys" would not only be lengthy but very time consuming. As such you may want to do some reading on COIN operations (there are many good articles and books on the subject on the 'net if you are interested) before you start attempting to convey thoughts on how to conduct such operations. You appear to be woefully lacking in knowledge on this subject and as such should probably learn more about it before trying to convey thoughts on it.


Crip

[pachador]

this is a discussion forum not a lecture forum where only very "knowledgeable" people can post their knowledge. if we follow your preference, only very knowledgeable people will be posting info and less knowledgeable people will be asking. if that was the case then that would be a first in all the discussion forums i have joined since 1995. i am posting based on the experience i have as a civilian armed volunteer in a coin zone. even from a fool you can learn something you know. I'm sure you can impart your "superior" knowledge without the need to be condescending or arrogant.


You appear to be woefully lacking in knowledge on this subject and as such should probably relegate yourself to learning about it. You do yourself and those reading a disservice by talking out of your 4th POC.

Crip

[Flagg]

What I'm in greatest disagreement over Pachador's post is the belief that throwing cash at a problem will fix it.

If the only time I saw foreign soldiers was when they were offering me cash to dob in local naughty people, I'd be wondering what else the lazy fcukers are trying to buy.......my sister?

my village elders?

my government?

Such a broad-based "free cash" strategy and attitude could likely cause more harm than good. Once you are labeled a cashcow, you, your national peers, and your coalition peers would likely be painted with the same counterproductive brush.

Jus because someone lives on $100 a month doesn't mean they are for sale.......and in my limited experience, earning their acquaintance or actual friendship is worth infinitely more than treating COIN/Peace Enforcemen/Peacekeeping Operations as a visit to the local shopping mall to try and buy what you want.

Did you buy your real friends? Did you buy your girlfriend/wife?

Wha makes you think you can buy people just because they are little and brown?

Cash can't buy integrity, respect, friendship, consistency, impartiality, lasting cooperation, real stability, and tangible security.

Just my amateur 0.02c

[Mordecai]

this is a discussion forum not a lecture forum where only very "knowledgeable" people can post their knowledge. if we follow your preference, only very knowledgeable people will be posting info and less knowledgeable people will be asking. if that was the case then that would be a first in all the discussion forums i have joined since 1995. i am posting based on the experience i have as a civilian armed volunteer in a coin zone. even from a fool you can learn something you know. I'm sure you can impart your "superior" knowledge without the need to be condescending or arrogant.

Based on your previous posts, you dont appear to have the knowledge base nor the understanding to know whats "more effective" or not in COIN warfare. I countered your points and made a suggestion that you read more on it before handing out info based on an incomplete understanding of COIN.

I was/am not being condescending; I am simply pointing out where your thoughts and ideas are wrong based on what I know about COIN from reading and talking to those who know much more than me.

Dont take things so personally.

Crip

[pachador]

cash or rewards is just one of the methods in intelligence gathering. Other ways are being friends and treating the local population nicely. one surefire to get the population mad is to treat them badly and if that happens , cash rewards will have very limited efect or use. I still standby using cash as an intelligence gathering method. The reason corruption is at a much higher level generally speaking in 3rd world countries is because people are poor and by this i mean the officials all the way down to the ordinary people are all poor, again, generally speaking. in other words, its easier to be morally upright when you are rich or living comfortably. Corruption is not limited to officials but also to ordinary people. for officials the cash reward you give is higher for ordinary people you can get away with smaller cash reward. The most powerful weapon rebels have against cash rewards is if they have a very strong ideology or belief in their struggle, but even then within rebel ranks there are rebels who can be bought. In addition, various non-western cultures do not have a concept of clear white and black right or wrong. instead their right or wrong is shades of gray which is where the cash rewards system can be used to advantage. I admit that my COIN knowledge is just based on what i experienced and may not apply in other areas.


What I'm in greatest disagreement over Pachador's post is the belief that throwing cash at a problem will fix it.

If the only time I saw foreign soldiers was when they were offering me cash to dob in local naughty people, I'd be wondering what else the lazy fcukers are trying to buy.......my sister?

my village elders?

my government?

Such a broad-based "free cash" strategy and attitude could likely cause more harm than good. Once you are labeled a cashcow, you, your national peers, and your coalition peers would likely be painted with the same counterproductive brush.

Jus because someone lives on $100 a month doesn't mean they are for sale.......and in my limited experience, earning their acquaintance or actual friendship is worth infinitely more than treating COIN/Peace Enforcemen/Peacekeeping Operations as a visit to the local shopping mall to try and buy what you want.

Did you buy your real friends? Did you buy your girlfriend/wife?

Wha makes you think you can buy people just because they are little and brown?

Cash can't buy integrity, respect, friendship, consistency, impartiality, lasting cooperation, real stability, and tangible security.

Just my amateur 0.02c