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Adux
09-01-2008, 01:13 AM
China's strategic thinking: A gold medal for mental gymnastics (http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/08/chinas-strategic-thinking-gold-medalg.html)


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/SLNkpJhWi5I/AAAAAAAAAXI/QkqpYRVrv18/s200/P8170284.JPG (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/SLNkpJhWi5I/AAAAAAAAAXI/QkqpYRVrv18/s1600-h/P8170284.JPG)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/SLNi6CVYG6I/AAAAAAAAAW4/gNX6Ej9JVGo/s200/P8170262.JPG Top: Posing in front of a street-length screen, placed by the Beijing City Administration to screen off the under-construction area behind it.









Below: The Forbidden City in Beijing, photographed from the side of Bei Hai Park.


(Photos courtesy Ajai Shukla)




by Ajai Shukla

Beijing, China Business Standard, 26th Aug 08


Those who believe that the Olympics are Emerging China’s message to the world have missed the wood for the trees. The Olympics are indeed a message, but more to the Chinese people. The message is: you have trusted us to rule you… and behold! We are repaying your trust; hold your head up before the world.



All ye, who wait for the revolution in China --- in the most part, followers of The Economist and the Wall Street Journal --- when an empowered and demanding citizenry will rise against their repressive rulers… take heed! The wait is going to be longer than you thought.



To the discerning visitor to China, far more striking than China’s impressive infrastructure and growing urban prosperity is the astonishing acquiescence of the Aam Chini in his relationship with Zhongnanhai, the home of the Chinese Communist Party and the Government of China.



Democracy, say a growing number of Chinese, especially the young, is not all that it is cracked up to be. Jean Liu, a young woman from Chengdu who now works as a journalist in Beijing, was all Chinese politeness when I brought up the D-word. “Isn’t it dangerous”, she asked, “to allow just any person to talk to the people? Hitler was such a good speaker, that he swept away the Germans with his oratory. And we know what that led to.”



It’s a common argument in China’s chat rooms. I pointed out that Hitler had struck a chord not with his oratory, but with his message of German pride, which resonated with a people humiliated by the Treaty of Versailles. But Ms Liu was having none of it. Like hundreds of millions of other Chinese, she has bought into Beijing’s argument that democracy has hamstrung the growth of countries like India. They remain mired in poverty, while China surges ahead.



Beijing’s enormous propaganda machine powers out the message everyday: “Your lives are getting better; China is emerging fast from its century of humiliation. (China’s invasion and domination by the West since 1840 underpins Beijing’s message.) Democracy will allow some Hitler-style charlatan to take you back into anarchy. Economic growth rests on social and political order.”



And the Chinese people, remembering the chaos before Deng Xiaoping’s reforms and the pro-democracy agitation at the Tianenmen Square in 1989, react to the promise of stability like good Confucians. The government, they agree, must know what it’s doing. Socialism with Chinese characteristics is the answer for us. Beijing rations out --- very deliberately and very cautiously --- economic, political and social freedoms. The official media plays Oliver Twist, asking for more only after the government decides to give it anyway.



The only real protests take place at the levels of provincial government, Beijing’s nod to democracy. It’s been called many things by different dictators: grassroots democracy, basic democracies. But nobody’s yet called it legitimate democracy.



Beijing’s caution is born of a compromise between two perspectives, which have competed in China for centuries. On the one hand is the Southern viewpoint, an internationalist perspective based upon free trade, which was born in the ports and commercial hubs around Shanghai, Canton, Macau and Guangdong. In contrast, the cautious, security-centric Northern viewpoint --- symbolised by the Great Wall of China --- was forged in centuries of invasions from the north by Mongols and Manchus; in this perspective, foreigners are a threat more than an opportunity.



The Northern viewpoint gradually won out, starting from the watershed moment in 1435 when the Ming emperor ordered an end to shipbuilding and naval activity in China. Around 1477, the emperor burnt the records of the seven voyages of China’s greatest mariner, the eunuch Zheng He, who had established Chinese authority as far as Java, Malacca and the coast of Africa.



Today, China walks the finest of lines between the Northern and the Southern viewpoints. Economic activity is Beijing’s lifeline to authority and global influence. On the other hand, it can never be allowed to get out of hand and endanger the established order.



India must watch carefully another contradiction between two conflicting views on international relations, which coexist simultaneously in Beijing. On the one hand, China remains strongly committed to the Westphalian system of state sovereignty, especially after the Tianenmen Square massacre, when the sovereignty was cited as the principle to ward off a global outcry. In fact, Beijing has touted state sovereignty ever since its traumatic encounters with western and Japanese imperialism in the 19th century, as well as after independence through its Five Principles of Peaceful Cooperation. In these, China has used the principle of state sovereignty as a defensive weapon; a shield against foreign interference as well as a sword to strike down domestic opposition.



On the other hand, there is the traditional Chinese view of international relations, a pre-1840 Great Power worldview, which still survives in Beijing. In that view, the power and influence of a country radiates outwards in concentric circles from its capital, gradually diminishing as it proceeds further. This view naturally envisions Chinese domination over (at least tacitly) subservient regional states and neighbours, which --- like North Korea and Pakistan --- accept “guidance” from Beijing. Such regional hierarchies may be confirmed by force, such as during the “punitive” wars in 1962 with India and, in 1979, with Vietnam.



The world watched with admiration as Chinese gymnasts dominated the Olympic gold medal tally in Beijing. Had there been medals for mental gymnastics, China’s count might have been higher
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/08/chinas-strategic-thinking-gold-medalg.html

Adux
09-01-2008, 01:14 AM
The writer is a former Colonel in the Indian Army, as of now a journalist and a NEWS Anchor in the NDTV 24x7

Adux
09-01-2008, 01:17 AM
Ordie,

A nice little view here

longlivetaiwan
09-01-2008, 02:57 AM
http://i354.photobucket.com/albums/r433/jessylujacks/trollspray.jpg

BugHunt
09-01-2008, 07:22 AM
Interesting article ive heard it a few times the Games were as much about the parties bid to show the chinese people they were worthy to lead as about showcasing to the rest of the world...



Taiwan boy tell your boss you should be relegated to traffic duties your posts suck.

Henry's Fork
09-01-2008, 07:41 AM
Democracy, say a growing number of Chinese, especially the young, is not all that it is cracked up to be. Jean Liu, a young woman from Chengdu who now works as a journalist in Beijing, was all Chinese politeness when I brought up the D-word “Isn’t it dangerous”, she asked, “to allow just any person to talk to the people? Hitler was such a good speaker, that he swept away the Germans with his oratory. And we know what that led to.”

rofl then a :cantbeli: I guess they didnt inform her about their own good speaking Chinese Hitler, Mao.

Baka.

Ordie
09-02-2008, 05:56 AM
Ordie,

A nice little view here

I think the Indians are just as clueless about China as Americans are about India.

Adux
09-02-2008, 08:17 AM
I think the Indians are just as clueless about China as Americans are about India.

Would love to hear your views on this, Where the article has gone wrong, I see couple of overestimation!
But then again this article is more so telling Indians to get their **** together!, The Soviet Bogeyman in 1950's led the US to compete and be the best. Maybe the Chinese will do the same to India!

longlivetaiwan
09-02-2008, 09:58 AM
[Post withdrawn]

Adux
09-02-2008, 11:04 AM
Its not a new 'news story' that unlike 1962, New Delhi has decided to take on Beijing head on!

Ordie
09-03-2008, 02:01 PM
Would love to hear your views on this, Where the article has gone wrong, I see couple of overestimation!
But then again this article is more so telling Indians to get their **** together!, The Soviet Bogeyman in 1950's led the US to compete and be the best. Maybe the Chinese will do the same to India!

The writer needs to take a lesson in Chinese history.
It's very insulting to a Chinese saying that they follow the "westphalian" model. When in fact China's concept of universal centralized governance has been around since the Xin Dynasty 2000 years ago.

He also needs a lesson on the Chinese "Mandate of Heaven' concept. Where the legitimacy of rulers is dependent upon how they govern. The writer makes it sound that the government directs everything. In reality the Chinese government is more reactive to its own people's expectations.

If they fail to deliver, then they will lose the "Mandate of Heaven" and another 'Dynasty' will take its place.

China and the Chinese have been living within a national centralized paradigm for centuries. Religion and tribal affiliations are tolerated as long as one recognizes the "Emperor" (Government) as the "Son of Heaven". Moreover, China has been living with the norms of a scholary bureaucratic meritocracy for 2000 years and abolished the system of princes, dukes, barrons or Raj. Local magistrates earned thier positions by taking a test, not by blood or inheritance.

China is not a good example for India because Indians have too many conflicting affiliations, beliefs, loyalties, languages and norms. For example, I went to a Gurdwara here in California, I did not see any Indian Flags, and the people did not refer to thier home country as India. But Punjab or in hush tones Khalistan.

In China, there's one common written language, standards, norms, and culture that binds everyone. Everyone has bought in on the concept that the government is doing what is best for the people. In order to operate, one must cooperate.

If anything, a better model for India is federal system similar to that of the United States. It gives the Federal government more power to formulate policy, but gives the states local control in the day to day affairs.

Competitive attitudes: From the Chinese point of view, they see India as a surrogate for the UK with its territorial claims. For centuries both China and India has been at peace until the British started to make claims on its territorial integrity. Some Chinese are quick to point out that if India by force of arms re-claimed Goa, Daman and Diu, then they should do the same in regards to Tibet, Taiwan, Aksai Shin and Assam.

The common Chinese cares more about territorial integrity of his/her country than a common Indian would do for thiers. If given the chance, common Indians would carve a niche for themselves than protect the whole country. Otherwise the government would not tolerate sectarian violence as we've seen in Orissa (Hindus vs. Christians) and Gujerat (Hindus vs. Muslims). Or ethnic separtist (Kashmir, Darjeling, Sikhs)

Adux
09-03-2008, 02:18 PM
Ordie,

Couple of nitpicks!

Most of the Sikhs who have migrated outside want Khalistan, since they were the main prepatrators, You remember the Lockerbee bombing! All the While we have a Sikh Prime Minister, the last Army chief was Sikh, not mention it is the second most TOP performing state in India, all the while Sikhs are a minute % of India! That said, the period of Khalistani insurgency was dark days of India!

Now, How does the concepts you mentioned, which I have to say though I have heard, I am not learned about it(I will read up), How does the mandate of heaven and all other concepts be valid in a non-monarchy government such as the CCP, if it was such Mao would have been lynched!

The difference in government is simple,

In India, if you use hard tactics, then the government is blamed, if you become a spectator the government is blamed, You have to understand there are some technical, infrastructural limitations for the Government, compare the % of Police, their equipment to that of the People it has to govern, then add in the places where the infrastructure is non-existent.

On top of this, This country is full of leftist liberal hippies, and has been formed by some also. If you think the anti-war demonstration in Minneapolis was something, then you havent really seen one!

We are a power straved nation, where the enivornmentalist, liberals are not allowing Power sector to even build a DAM(We have way too much freedom). We have a nut like Arundhati Roy, who I have the misfortune of knowing, calling seperatism, Yet she isnt locked up. A country where the minorities, pressure groups hold the key through reservation in government jobs and education. All the while Majority community suffers. Its way complicated! heck, we even have a media which shows minority communities deaths at the hands of Majority communities but not vice versa,

China's territorial claims are something I take with big bag of salt, India is not all white and I am aware of it. that said, we are definitly better than them.

The differnence is in the mental make up of Indians to Chinese. This is a true liberal hippie land, which would put Europe to shame!

Adux
09-03-2008, 02:21 PM
We cannot force culture on our people, if we do, might as well flush the constitution in the toilet!
The less said about how China achieved that the better!

I say lot of good things about India, even with its countless problems, mis-calculations, misdeeds at times, idioicy of the highest order, yet in the greater scheme of things, we are a good country with a good spirit, if we we did what our neighbours have done to their own people. I would have happily moved to the country i think is along my belief system: United States. fortunately that is not the case, there is hope for this country! and I can stand with head held high in front of you!

Adux
09-03-2008, 02:33 PM
Anybody talking about minority situation in India doesnt know India well.

There are 200 million minorities in India, and there are 650 million poor in India!
Poverty has nothing to do with religion or race in india, rather it is a fact of being an indian. things are changing hopefully soon!

Ordie
09-03-2008, 03:30 PM
How does the mandate of heaven and all other concepts be valid in a non-monarchy government such as the CCP, if it was such Mao would have been lynched!

For example, Deng Xiao Peng was poorly treated and persecuted during the Cultural Revolution by the Red Guards under direction of the Communist Party and the Gang of Four.

Despite of what has happened, when given the chance, instead of destroying the Communist Party, he maintained organizational status quo and changed the economic policies from within.

Adux
09-03-2008, 03:39 PM
For example, Deng Xiao Peng was poorly treated and persecuted during the Cultural Revolution by the Red Guards under direction of the Communist Party and the Gang of Four.



Despite of what has happened, when given the chance, instead of destroying the Communist Party, he maintained organizational status quo and changed the economic policies from within.

[/QUOTE]

Ordie,

Did he have any other choice, my knowledge about this part of chinese history is sketchy at best. Chinese are very paragmatic, and destruction of a monolith called the CCP, is even beyond MAO, forget Deng. And there were other considerations such as Soviet Union, not to mention Chinese were more nationalist, than Commie's.

Ordie
09-03-2008, 03:50 PM
Mandate of Heaven in a nutshell.

Strong merit based bureaucracy and infrastructure remains the same regardless of leaders. This includes foriegn invaders as well as in the case of the Mongols and Manchus. This has been going on the China for at least 2000 years.

Adux
09-03-2008, 03:56 PM
Mandate of Heaven in a nutshell.

Strong merit based bureaucracy and infrastructure remains the same regardless of leaders.

I remember studying about the system in my 8th standard history lesson.

Yet MAO is revered more than Deng!

Adux
09-03-2008, 03:58 PM
And one cannot compare the monarchy and the Communist sytem at all. There is rampant corruption in China, especially since most people dont care about mandate of heaven!
I will qoute you from a long forgotten post "capitalism with no moral or ethical bounderies"

Ordie
09-03-2008, 04:42 PM
Yet MAO is revered more than Deng!

Mao is a revolutionary and unifying figure. Literally larger then life even when you look at his corpse.

Deng did not care to build a cult of personality. Ironically he did not carry any official titles. I think he would disappove of any accolades.

Ordie
09-03-2008, 04:55 PM
And one cannot compare the monarchy and the Communist sytem at all. There is rampant corruption in China, especially since most people dont care about mandate of heaven!
I will qoute you from a long forgotten post "capitalism with no moral or ethical bounderies"

"It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white, so long as it catches mice".
-Deng Xiao Peng

It does not matter if China adhere's communism, capitalism, despotism, imperialism, and democracy. As long as China remains as a single state and people. That's the mandate.

There's alot of corruption. (10% of the GDP to be exact).
The one instutution in China that is rarely corrupted is education. That has been the norm for centuries. Chinese take education very seriously at home and abroad.

If there was a entrance cheating scam at Beijing University, it would be very very very bad. So much so that heads will literally roll witin minutes.