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CG51
09-02-2008, 12:46 PM
Alabama is rolling out a creative but controversial program that will subject its 37,527 state employees to possibly humiliating at-work weigh-ins and fat tests. If they tip the scales, they'll be given a choice: slim down or pay up.

The state is trying to solve two of its biggest problems — health insurance costs and obesity — in one fell swoop.
Beginning in 2010, Alabama, which has the second highest obesity rate in the country, will start charging all of its employees an extra $25 per month for health insurance. (Currently, single workers pay nothing; family plans cost $180 a month.)
But there's a way to avoid the fee: Get a check-up at an in-office "wellness center," where nurses will check for diabetes and hypertension and measure blood pressure, cholesterol, glucose levels and Body Mass Index (BMI).
The idea is to encourage employees to act responsibly, lose weight and lower their health care needs. But critics say it will humiliate and stigmatize obese employees and amounts to nothing short of a "fat tax."
A BMI test uses height and weight measurements to calculate the percentage of body fat in adult males and females. Alabama is using a BMI threshold of 35 — 30 is considered obese, by most medical standards — to determine who doesn't have to pay the automatic $25 deduction.
Health practitioners often factor in skinfold (fat) and waist circumference measurements while calculating a patient's BMI.
Does Alabama think you're fat? Take this humiliation-free BMI test online. (http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/healthyweight/assessing/bmi/adult_BMI/english_bmi_calculator/bmi_calculator.htm)
If you're deemed fit, you're exempt. But if you flunk the BMI exam, it's shape up or pay up. Obese workers will be required to see a doctor and will have to show proof of their attempt to lose weight.
The program is optional ... sort of. If you don't take the tests, you'll have to pay the $25 charge.
The $25-per-month fee is not the only way Alabama hopes to discourage bad health decisions by state employees, said the program's creator, William Ashmore, executive director of the Alabama State Employees' Insurance Board. Alabama already charges smokers a monthly $25 insurance fee.
"There are folks walking around with diabetes and hypertension that don't even know it, and it's just a matter of time before something catastrophic happens to them," Ashmore said. "If we can get people to manage their health, we'll have healthier employees and less healthcare costs."
He said employees with a BMI of 35 or higher cost the state 40 percent more than those with a BMI under 35, and the program will help in many ways. "This is not a fat tax," Ashmore said. "It's not punitive."
But that's exactly what critics are calling it: a punitive "fat tax" designed to stigmatize the obese by inappropriately — and possibly illegally — bringing weight into the workplace.
"This is a dreadful, dreadful policy," said Judith S. Stern, an obesity expert and nutrition professor at University of California at Davis. "Overweight and obese people, especially women, feel that their weight is private, and being weighed at work is like having a prostate exam in the hall. It's not appropriate."
Critics also say Alabama's program borders on discrimination by using obesity, which is medically categorized as a disease, as its benchmark.
"I think it discriminates against people with a disease — obesity is a disease," Stern said. "Would you charge more money if they had breast cancer?"
Alabama's program is a dangerous step on a very slippery slope, says Mark V. Pauly, professor of health care systems at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business. "The unanswered question is, 'How much you want to do this?'" he said. "If you got lung cancer because you smoked, do we charge you a penalty there? What about couch potatoes? Do we put all the employees on treadmills?"
Medical and social considerations aside, other critics say it's just not going to work. "There's the thought that obese people are weak-willed, and if we charge them more they won't be as fat," Stern said. "This assumes they have control over what's involved, and often they don't."
And there's the cost factor. In its efforts to reduce heath care costs Alabama will spend an extra $1.6 million for health screenings and programs next year.
"From the viewpoint of the employer who provides health care and pension (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,414861,00.html#), this kind of cancels out," Pauly said. "What you lost on health care you get back in pension plan, because now these people are living longer."
Whatever the plan, a company's success in lowering health care costs and curbing obesity could depend entirely on how it's framed. Rewards tend to work better than punishment.
"It's possible to set these things up to look like more like carrots than sticks," Pauly said. "And people tend to respond better to carrots."
Alabama isn't alone in its struggle to cut costs and curb obesity. Two-thirds of American adults are overweight or obese, according to a recent report from Trust for America's Health, a nonprofit organization based in Washington, D.C.
Clarian Health Partners, a hospital chain in Indiana, has taken a different approach. In 2009, they will start deducting money from the paychecks of workers who do not meet — and don't show efforts to meet — various health criteria. Smoking without trying to quit will cost $5; high glucose, high blood pressure and high cholesterol levels will cost $5 each; a high Body Mass Index will cost $10.
This is also happening abroad. Japan is monitoring the waist measurements of its policyholders, according to official government websites. Citizens receive jury duty-like summonses to appear for measurements — and if they're too fat, their employer will be slapped with a hefty fine. The maximum waist size allowed for men is 33.5 inches and 35.4 inches for women.
It's unlikely that Japan's program will catch on stateside, but that doesn't mean Americans are off the hook. Alabama's so-called "fat tax" could just be the beginning of a trend.
"A lot of employers are talking about this," Pauly said. "There's the feeling that you have to do something. What you do then is a matter of design and discretion."
As for Alabama, Ashmore is sure that those who have their doubts will soon come around. He encourages workers to swing by his Montgomery office to pick up pamphlets about the program and to learn more about reducing their Body Mass Index.
But to get to his second-floor office they'll first have to make it past the Chick-Fil-A downstairs (average meal: 1,000 calories).


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,414861,00.html

Yeti2424
09-02-2008, 01:16 PM
I personally see nothing wrong with this because it surcharges those who use the health plan more than others. However it goes against the idea of a group heath plan.

Hutz
09-02-2008, 01:21 PM
It's a nice idea but leaves the door open to many other issues. Should we tax smokers because they induce many health problems to themselves that will end up costing health care?

Ordie
09-02-2008, 01:28 PM
We'll see a surge in stomach stapling.

2Sheds_Jackson
09-02-2008, 01:31 PM
It's a nice idea but leaves the door open to many other issues. Should we tax smokers because they induce many health problems to themselves that will end up costing health care?

IMO, yes we should. We should charge more for every voluntary behavior that costs us more. Why should somebody who watches after their health - eats right, doesn't smoke, exercises etc., pay much higher premiums to offset the costs incurred by people who don't care? And I'd pull the rug out from under people who get injured breaking the law or doing dumb-sh*t high risk things like paragliding etc. The only break I'd give to fat people would be after a medical determination that they had some kind of condition that's causing them to be heavy.

Hutz
09-02-2008, 02:14 PM
IMO, yes we should. We should charge more for every voluntary behavior that costs us more. Why should somebody who watches after their health - eats right, doesn't smoke, exercises etc., pay much higher premiums to offset the costs incurred by people who don't care? And I'd pull the rug out from under people who get injured breaking the law or doing dumb-sh*t high risk things like paragliding etc. The only break I'd give to fat people would be after a medical determination that they had some kind of condition that's causing them to be heavy.

There's quite a few that would agree with you on that. Look at Canada's public health care. We always end up paying for people who don't take proper care for themselves.

Laworkerbee
09-02-2008, 02:22 PM
It's a nice idea but leaves the door open to many other issues. Should we tax smokers because they induce many health problems to themselves that will end up costing health care?

You already do! The price of cigarettes is astronomical thanks to the taxes we pay for our smokes.

What happened to you 2Sheds, you used to be cool.

Kampfbaer
09-02-2008, 02:32 PM
Interestingly, slim and "healthy" people are a greater liability to health insurance than "fat" people, simply because they live longer.

If I remember right, a average sum (of lifetime health expenses) of € 240.000 was given for "fat people" while the "slim people" cost € 250.000 in average.

StukaJr
09-02-2008, 02:49 PM
What's next - chronic illness patients, Jerry's kids and elderly? Start throwing sickly newborns off a cliff - Spartan style?

Just because the cost of medical care is growing out of control, doesn't mean that coverage should be discriminatory towards certain individuals to get the same medical care. I appreciate that many can go without medical visits for years, but denying medical coverage so big corporations can continue to post profit is a dead end. Unfortunately, the time when you find out that "you have A and therefore you can't have B" scenario is too late to complain.

chauncy republicans
09-02-2008, 04:04 PM
There's a difference between the chronically ill, elderly, sickly newborns - and some fatass who can't keep himself from the drive-through window of McDonald's. Why should a healthy tax payer have to help foot the bill for some lazy ass or a smoker? I go to the doctor for a yearly check up and that's it, I keep my health care costs manageable by staying healthy.
Big corporations' profits have little to do with it, it's your average un-obese, non-smoking individual, who will/is being penalized for some morons lack of self restraint.

Laworkerbee
09-02-2008, 04:07 PM
Smokers, the new Jews.

chauncy republicans
09-02-2008, 04:10 PM
Only since the cry for universal health care went mainstream.

StukaJr
09-02-2008, 04:24 PM
There's a difference between the chronically ill, elderly, sickly newborns - and some fatass who can't keep himself from the drive-through window of McDonald's. Why should a healthy tax payer have to help foot the bill for some lazy ass or a smoker? I go to the doctor for a yearly check up and that's it, I keep my health care costs manageable by staying healthy.
Big corporations' profits have little to do with it, it's your average un-obese, non-smoking individual, who will/is being penalized for some morons lack of self restraint.

I can tell the difference - I'm just giving an example to where the snowball may lead to if it let to roll down the hill. States are looking to cut costs and National deficit is not looking to jump into the black any time soon. There are plenty of illnesses that cause "fat ass" and not the other way around - going purely after the waist size in determining the penalty for healthcare is an excuse for Nation going broke and looking for scapegoats to unload growing debt unto...

Mind you, this is a healthcare benefit for employees for services performed - not a free lunch for couch potatoes. These people work and deserve not to be discriminated in compensation... In many ways, this is a step back in equal rights - darkies and women are next in line? I wonder if Insurance in Alabama covers ***** pills?

2Sheds_Jackson
09-02-2008, 05:04 PM
You already do! The price of cigarettes is astronomical thanks to the taxes we pay for our smokes.

What happened to you 2Sheds, you used to be cool.

No, no you must have me confused with that other guy. Y'know, the cool one. I'm the one who's a total prick.

I just think health insurance in general is a massive scam. I pay for my own...and sometimes don't have any when I'm between policies. While we had no insurance recently, Mrs _Jackson went in for a checkup. They put her up on the lift, dropped her tranny and checked all her girl parts. The bill was $415...then when they saw we had no insurance, they dropped it to $200. The price difference is the effect that group insurance has on rates.

When you lump everybody together, you wind up paying rates to cover every spray-paint huffing, pierced, paragliding Jackass-imitating lard ass. I recommend putting them all in some sort of camp. A camp where they could be grouped, or concentrated for convenience's sake.



Just because the cost of medical care is growing out of control, doesn't mean that coverage should be discriminatory towards certain individuals to get the same medical care.

But why not though? Bad drivers pay higher car insurance rates. I don't see much difference between the two kinds of insurance. Everybody starts out with a clean slate - but if you choose to drive (or live) a certain way, you'll pay more. Like I said before - anything that can be shown to be a legit medical condition should be exempted (as in brain damage due to birth defect = no additional premium, brain damage due to huffing paint = an extra $10/mo.)


Smokers, the new Jews.

...then what are the old Jews?

Laworkerbee
09-02-2008, 05:08 PM
...then what are the old Jews?

The Blacks.......

Wait, what?

StukaJr
09-02-2008, 06:05 PM
But why not though? Bad drivers pay higher car insurance rates. I don't see much difference between the two kinds of insurance. Everybody starts out with a clean slate - but if you choose to drive (or live) a certain way, you'll pay more. Like I said before - anything that can be shown to be a legit medical condition should be exempted (as in brain damage due to birth defect = no additional premium, brain damage due to huffing paint = an extra $10/mo.)


There is a difference - financial protection of property and well being of a human. Then you are suggesting to charge people extra for the likelyhood of them being a bigger burden on the system, not the proven burden. Using your car insurance example, proven at fault accidents and traffic situations increase the insurance rate - not the accident rate in the driver's gender group, ethnic group or body type... If there is common stereotype that asian women are bad drivers... you get the idea.

Car insurance is a personal choice - if the person chooses not to drive. A person can shop around for a cheaper quote. The health insurance that State provides is a compensation and a benefit - that's paying someone less money for what the same services. That's simply discrimination.

Calanen
09-02-2008, 06:37 PM
It's a nice idea but leaves the door open to many other issues. Should we tax smokers because they induce many health problems to themselves that will end up costing health care?

Yes we should.

Calanen
09-02-2008, 06:38 PM
Smokers, the new Jews.

Man up and quit ya softie.

Macs.
09-02-2008, 06:41 PM
Yes we should.

But where do you start and where do you stop ?

What about people who drive a car ? A motorcycle ?

And how do you prove that someone smokes ? Not so easy to diagnose for example on young people.


Smokers, the new Jews.

Hi.

Bia
09-02-2008, 06:44 PM
Excellent plan...

Yay Alabama :P

Kilgor
09-02-2008, 06:45 PM
Good idea.

People should be responsible for their own health.

For example, two of the other employee's here have had used their entire 10 days off in a year by being sick. Both are overweight and smoke.

I haven't had a single sick day off in 3 years. I keep fit, eat well and don't smoke. I think there should be a carrot for me and a stick for them.

Laworkerbee
09-02-2008, 06:45 PM
Man up and quit ya softie.

Ok I'll quit tonight.

Bia
09-02-2008, 06:49 PM
The bill was $415...then when they saw we had no insurance, they dropped it to $200. The price difference is the effect that group insurance has on rates.
Exactly... I pay dental... cash out of pocket.... and get a lower rate for same services.

Massive scam.

StukaJr
09-02-2008, 07:04 PM
When I slashed my wrist with X-Acto blade - my insurance bill for hour and a half in the emergency room was over $5K, after which I was sent home with football stitches and a script for pain meds. I was back at work, mashing keyboard with my thumb two days later :) What insurance is charged and what insurance is paid are two different things - it's usually 50% of the original claim and that is if claim is accepted.

The ER actually made me sign a co-pay credit card receipt for 100 dollars while the tendons on my left hand were prodded and pulled :| It was fortunate I'm right handed and really, when you see red, grey and fat blobs flapping out of your hand - I'd expect that being the priority over my AmEx

Bia
09-02-2008, 07:13 PM
When I slashed my wrist with X-Acto blade Hobby model rocket building?

:P

ed316
09-02-2008, 07:26 PM
What happened to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness?

StukaJr
09-02-2008, 07:32 PM
Hobby model rocket building?

:P

You got 3 out of 4 correctly... :/

The worst part is that when the cast was off and I could move my fingers were moving again without me wincing - I finished the task with a dremel sanding attachment in 4 seconds flat.


What happened to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness?

Welcome to "Big Nanny" State

deagle
09-02-2008, 07:34 PM
didn't we have a revolution to be free from taxes ??

CG51
09-02-2008, 08:06 PM
I agree with some of Twosheds post. But, I believe that will open more and more variables in the insurance racket. What if you jog in a high crime area, will your insurance go up just because the murder rate is higher in the area you live. What about the sport you choose? They keep you healthy but are high risk, skiing (water and snow), scuba, and other more risky sports for the adrenaline high.

Don't think I'm a nutter, but I have said before long ago; now that everyday technology is making it easier to access your personal habbits. Say, Wal mart or Target or grocery stores decide to sell you personal data to your insurance company to make some extra scrilla. The group insurance or other that you pay for see that your purchasing habbits are, well, not what they decide is healthy. You buy cheap processed foods, junk food, liquer, ciggerettes and other flagged items. In the future they may deem these high risk "behavior" and may cancel you insurance outright or increase the premium to the point ou might have to cancel you insurance. Don't want to sound like a conspericy nutter but insurance is in the game for profit. Technology makes it easier for them to keep tabs on you and invade your privacy.

It will be interesting to see if others follow Alabama's idea.

My two cents (shorten the post but you guys get the idea that I am trying to convey).

Laworkerbee
09-02-2008, 08:10 PM
My two cents (shorten the post but you guys get the idea that I am trying to convey).

I do, you just gave me a great idea for a business :)

Macs.
09-02-2008, 08:17 PM
Don't think I'm a nutter, but I have said before long ago; now that everyday technology is making it easier to access your personal habbits. Say, Wal mart or Target or grocery stores decide to sell you personal data to your insurance company to make some extra scrilla. The group insurance or other that you pay for see that your purchasing habbits are, well, not what they decide is healthy. You buy cheap processed foods, junk food, liquer, ciggerettes and other flagged items. In the future they may deem these high risk "behavior" and may cancel you insurance outright or increase the premium to the point ou might have to cancel you insurance. Don't want to sound like a conspericy nutter but insurance is in the game for profit. Technology makes it easier for them to keep tabs on you and invade your privacy.

That's not even that far fetched, there is a huge scandal here right now with a whole Market for illegal sold personal data. The more data, the more worth it is. These traders even had the bank account details of up to 20 Million people (In a country with 82 Million total population !) that was mainly used for telemaketers. Some scam companies would go so far and just randomly book off money from random bank account and hope that the people wouldn't notice.

Data about people is worth alot, and companies are already making huge detailed statistics on where there is the most money to be made, what the people buy etc. Pretty lucrative and people are mostly very lax with their personal data.

Insurance companies also are doing test runs with cars that are equipped with GPS-Trackers that make you pay exactly for the amount you drove.

LaoSexMachine
09-02-2008, 08:32 PM
This is fvcked up!! Why not tax stupid people?

Macs.
09-02-2008, 08:35 PM
This is fvcked up!! Why not tax stupid people?

Extreme budget surplus within short time.

Highspeed
09-02-2008, 08:55 PM
Alabama already charges $25 more if you smoke on Health Insurance. I see this spinning out of control. Healthcare insurance will get like car insurance.