French row over English lessons

[LaoSexMachine]

French row over English lessons
By Emma Jane Kirby
BBC News, Paris
The main teaching union in France has criticised the education minister's plans to offer free English classes in the school holidays next year.
Xavier Darcos announced the plans on Monday, insisting that speaking fluent English was the key to success.
The Snes-FSU union leader Roland Hubert said Mr Darcos should be concentrating on what happens during school time.
The policy marks a real break from the traditional Gallic strategy of promoting the French language.
Two years ago, the then President, Jacques Chirac, famously stormed out of an EU summit when a fellow Frenchman began making his speech in English.
In 1994, the French parliament passed a law obliging music-orientated French radio stations to increase their French-language programming to at least 40% of their output.
Traditionalists
Xavier Darcos said it was a "handicap" to speak poor English.
He said that while "well-off families pay for study sessions abroad, I'm offering them to everyone right here".
President Nicolas Sarkozy is likely to back the plan.
He has already infuriated traditionalists by suggesting that the French should no longer insist on speaking their own language at international negotiations.
The French leader does admit however that his own English needs a little work.
He once made a speech to businessmen in English, telling them they would all be welcome to invest in "Frence".

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7594910.stm

[wildcat]

this is normal for France, Growing up in the UK, the french were always revolting over language, I respect them for trying to hang on to there culture that way.

[xav]

About fvcking time seriously!

Took me a good year to start feeling comfortabe with english here... The first six month, I felt like I only learned english for a week... and I passed the TOEFL (Test Of English as a Foreign Language... a requirement to come study in the US) right away... some buddies had to take it more than 3 times.

Took me 5 entire years in the US to start feeling very confortable (and not 100% bi lingual yet... Actually I start to feel like I am forgeting my French :) ).

Anyways, whenever I go back to France now with my GF, I feel so embarrassed that barely nobody can say a 5 words sentence to my girlfriend.

So very good move and again, about frakin' time! If EU becomes something remotly close to the US in the future... guess what language will be the MAIN (if not official) language of the EU... Certainly not French...

[Bushranger]

Good move this is, The french need to pull there head out of there Ass & realise if you cant speak English you are going to be left behind when it comes to dealing with the world or even travelling the world. Most other europeans under 30 that i have met can all speak english, so get with the program frenchy.

[Invisigoth]

The average command of the English language among French people is terrible, about time they did smth. like this.

[ren0312]

The average command of the English language among French people is terrible, about time they did smth. like this.

The average Indian can speak English way better than the average Japanese or Korean, now look at Delhi or Calcutta, and compare it to Tokyo or Seoul. Does the average French really need to learn much beyond basic conversational English?

[PeterRJG]

The average Indian can speak English way better than the average Japanese or Korean, now look at Delhi or Calcutta, and compare it to Tokyo or Seoul. Does the average French really need to learn much beyond basic conversational English?

This has got what to do with the French's ability to speak English? Talking about going off at a tangent...

[Adux]

Good move this is, The french need to pull there head out of there Ass & realise if you cant speak English you are going to be left behind when it comes to dealing with the world or even travelling the world. Most other europeans under 30 that i have met can all speak english, so get with the program frenchy.

Indians knew that 60 years ago!

[Adux]

The average Indian can speak English way better than the average Japanese or Korean, now look at Delhi or Calcutta, and compare it to Tokyo or Seoul. Does the average French really need to learn much beyond basic conversational English?

Yes, But look at where New Delhi is heading, Yet Tokyo and Seoul has reached their limits. It is such a simplistic view of things, the factors of India and East asian countries you mentioned arent the same!

[Telmar]

Once discussing business with a French investor, I asked him if we could speak English so my Slovak assistant could understand. He agreed but started to speak such a lousy English that I has to speak French to him again.

The french unions should be concerned with the way the level of French students fell behind in the last years, even though taxpayers pump enormous amounts in the system.

[RSone]

About damn time. Every single little country in Europe has to learn 3 or 4 languages in school, because France and the other large countries don't think english is important enough. We had Dutch,English,French AND German in High-School, just so we could carry a basic conversation with a foreigner. Is it too much to ask that they pick up at least English?

[filochard]

when a foreigner start to speak english to me in France as if it was natural I understand, that make me forget all my english. What if I started to speak in french with a man in the US without even asking him before if he speak french?

[Adux]

Wether one likes it or not, English is the language of this world, (Madarin is the biggest, but that isnt a international language). French are a bit sad that theirs isnt, the reason is simple Britannica ruled the waves! And today, Its still a English Speaking country at the top!

[Billy No Mates]

when a foreigner start to speak english to me in France as if it was natural I understand, that make me forget all my english. What if I started to speak in french with a man in the US without even asking him before if he speak french?

I can understand you resenting bad manners but its really besides the point,like it or not English is a world language that a country like France could and should be doing better at .

[Doublethinker]

when a foreigner start to speak english to me in France as if it was natural I understand, that make me forget all my english. What if I started to speak in french with a man in the US without even asking him before if he speak french?

Oh gee, probably that's because English is accepted worlwide as the most popular language in the world, the language of international communication and the language of business communication.

I speak English even when talking to Poles.

Same can't be claimed about French, spoken only in France and its ex-colonies.

[Doublethinker]

I can understand you resenting bad manners but its really besides the point,like it or not English is a world language that a country like France could and should be doing better at .

For Christ's sake, Russian is spoken or understood by more than 300 million people, but we don't get offended.

Chinese is spoken or understood by more than a billion people and they don't get offended.

But the French do. Its just petty French nationalism, because they eventually lost the imperialist race to the Britts and now English is everywhere.

[tyovan]

when a foreigner start to speak english to me in France as if it was natural I understand, that make me forget all my english. What if I started to speak in french with a man in the US without even asking him before if he speak french?

That's understandable. I was worried about the French-language 'nationalism' (for lack of a better word) - but I always attempted to show great respect for the people and the culture: Bonjour. Excuse moi, je ne comprande Francais. Je suis American. Parlez vous Anglais?
I realized I was in a French-speaking culture, and I tried to be polite and always asked in French if they spoke English and apologized for not speaking French. I also always ended with a 'Merci baquet' (spelling?)

[oldsoak]

I think we have to agree that English is more universal as a lingua franca in the west that French is - although at one time French held that position. It therefore does make sense to offer free English classes to pupils so that they are not disadvantaged when they interract with English speakers. I do feel/understand some reticence in this. After all, France had such a depth of culture that they feel proud of, and some may view this as "Anglicisation" by stealth.

[Bitogno]

This article is biased. The row by the FSU-SNES has nothing to do with teaching english but with the fact that the teaching would happen during holidays, would be done by private companies and that there is a reduction in the investment in other languages ( chinese ? ).

[PVJ]

The only reason english seems universal is because the US is the richest economy in the world so naturally most people who want to do business with the US learn english. In a few decades we are all gonna be learning Hindi and Mandarin.

[Telmar]

The only reason english seems universal is because the US is the richest economy in the world so naturally most people who want to do business with the US learn english. In a few decades we are all gonna be learning Hindi and Mandarin.

I am not sure. The world will meet somewhere in the middle.

It's quite easy to speak a broken and lousy English and still get understood. That's also why it is so popular.

A language like Mandarin seems hardly accessible to the other 75% of Earth's inhabitants, and for that reason, I doubt it will be lingua franca.

[tooms]

This article is biased. The row by the FSU-SNES has nothing to do with teaching english but with the fact that the teaching would happen during holidays, would be done by private companies and that there is a reduction in the investment in other languages ( chinese ? ).


Exactly,

the article misses the point.

Improving english is not a bad idea. The fact is, general level (science, french etc.) decreases in France. Those basics are more important right now. Speaking english very early is useless if you can't do anything with it.

[PVJ]

I am not sure. The world will meet somewhere in the middle.

It's quite easy to speak a broken and lousy English and still get understood. That's also why it is so popular.

A language like Mandarin seems hardly accessible to the other 75% of Earth's inhabitants, and for that reason, I doubt it will be lingua franca.

Its possible to speak broken Hindi or Mandarin and get understood, just like english. Why should people give up on their language just because its easier to speak english. The Greek language has been around for like 4000 years, so in Greece should people learn greek as a second language just because english is easier?

[DaGreatRV]

French political science students I've met were able to have a normal conversation with me. I suck at french so I used english and it was no problem.
But maybe that had to do with the international nature of their studies. :roll:

[Telmar]

Its possible to speak broken Hindi or Mandarin and get understood, just like english. Why should people give up on their language just because its easier to speak english. The Greek language has been around for like 4000 years, so in Greece should people learn greek as a second language just because english is easier?

People should learn english ASAP and of course speak their own language...

BTW, i doubt Mandarin is usable in the same context as English. From what I know, ****ounciation seems extremely important and very hard.

[Doublethinker]

People should learn english ASAP and of course speak their own language...

BTW, i doubt Mandarin is usable in the same context as English. From what I know, ****ounciation seems extremely important and very hard.

Mandarin is different from Mainland Chinese in writing. Taiwanese haven't implemented the changes with regards to simplification of hyeropgliphics, carried out by Mainland China.

As for ****ounciation, its very different even in different regions of Mainland China ('Beijing dialect', which is the official language of news channels, is quite different from, say, Shanghai dialect), so that's not the core of the problem.

[BritSig]

It's fact that English is the language or the world!

It's also easy for me to sit here and say that, because it is my first language!

So many countries in Europe especially the Dutch (never met so many English speakers of all ages and backgrounds anywhere else), are already at am high standard of English. After all, their cinema isn't dubbed they listen mostly to English spoken music. So the exposure is there from an early age.

Whilst holding onto your tradition as something to be proud of, English is the future in language.

Question; for anyone who is Bi-lingual.
Is it easier to learn English as we have no formal/informal difference?
Example, Sie and Du, Tu and Vous and im sure the Dutch have something similar.

BritSig.

P.S I did French at school for 5 years and have gotten by in France when on course. I also did 3 and a half years on the Dutch/German border and do low level conversation in German (numbers only in Dutch and poker related words! Thanks to Holland casino Venlo!!) before i get berated for being an ignorant brit!

[oldsoak]

Egad, a Brueggenite ! :lol:

English is easy to learn as it doesnt have the Sie and Du rules now ( it did have Thee and Thou )
and the rules for grammar are more relaxed - ( mind you, give my old English teacher the glums to see what he taught is now forgotten ) - but then we would say that wouldnt we :lol:

[BritSig]

Bruggen Indeed, called Elmpt station since the Scaleys got hold of it!! Closing down soon and being handed over to Lufthansa. Relocating to St Athens.
No doubt a Bruggen 10 t-shirt lurks in your closet!

BritSig.

[Clayton Gold]

It's not only France where you see this type of reaction.

Quebecers like to cause a ruckus over language too. Even over small matters, like business signs.

[Vince S]

Question; for anyone who is Bi-lingual.
Is it easier to learn English as we have no formal/informal difference?
Example, Sie and Du, Tu and Vous and im sure the Dutch have something similar.

BritSig.

P.S I did French at school for 5 years and have gotten by in France when on course. I also did 3 and a half years on the Dutch/German border and do low level conversation in German (numbers only in Dutch and poker related words! Thanks to Holland casino Venlo!!) before i get berated for being an ignorant brit!

French is my "first language" (parents are from Edmonton so I learned english at the same time I learned french in elementary school) and still I find english WAY easier than french... French grammar is ****ed up really. Sure it doesn't help that some liberal hippies in the government change terminology every ****ing year around here. Christ I learned the same crap 4 times under different name.

I also had German classes in College but forgot most of it since I don't chance to practise it. I can say is was harder than french lol

[oldsoak]

@clayton

You said Quebec. That explains it. :-P

- I'll get my coat before Vince throws me out...

[boreal]

http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v164/232/1/566235090/n566235090_707019_5687.jpg

Business...

[oldsoak]

Theres a point - how do the Spanish feel ? It could be argued that in the Americas, Spanish is at least as important as English

[Power_serj]

It's ironic that people in other countries know English but a lot of people here couldn't ask me if I speak Spanish in English.

[Vince S]

@clayton

You said Quebec. That explains it. :-P

- I'll get my coat before Vince throws me out...

Don't worry I'm not a 101 Dumb**** ;) (Bill 101 being Quebec's law that state that everything should be in french everywhere, and if english is used somewhere, french shoudl have prevailance (bigger character for instance))

Hell I've been forced to have education in french even though my parent wanted me to go to an english school (there is a few)

[Mackie]

It's ironic that people in other countries know English but a lot of people here couldn't ask me if I speak Spanish in English.

Different. Depends on school.
Some immigrants here don't speak German and lower graduates lacks in English while I HAD to learn English, French and Latin. And Latin sucks extreme.

[RSone]

It's fact that English is the language or the world!

It's also easy for me to sit here and say that, because it is my first language!

So many countries in Europe especially the Dutch (never met so many English speakers of all ages and backgrounds anywhere else), are already at am high standard of English. After all, their cinema isn't dubbed they listen mostly to English spoken music. So the exposure is there from an early age.

Whilst holding onto your tradition as something to be proud of, English is the future in language.

Question; for anyone who is Bi-lingual.
Is it easier to learn English as we have no formal/informal difference?
Example, Sie and Du, Tu and Vous and im sure the Dutch have something similar.

BritSig.

P.S I did French at school for 5 years and have gotten by in France when on course. I also did 3 and a half years on the Dutch/German border and do low level conversation in German (numbers only in Dutch and poker related words! Thanks to Holland casino Venlo!!) before i get berated for being an ignorant brit!

It makes it a little bit easier. We have je/jij(you) and u. possesives are jouw/uw.(your(s))
I wouldn't say the lack of a formal/informal difference makes it noticeably easier when learning it, as in The Netherlands you tend to grow up with English,because of the Media(which is rarely dubbed except for kids shows, but instead subtitled), The Internet and the fact that English class is started at a very low age, in Elementary School.

Having said that, there's obviously still an extreme difference in the spectrum between people that have grown up with it(since the 80's or something) and people of earlier generations.
As you've noticed, many dutch MP.net members are fluent in English, but Minister of Defence Van Middelkoop,for example, has terrible English, despite the fact that he probably received very good education and is a high ranking government official. It's clearly a product of the last two decades or so.

[Sharp]

Who, in the world, really cares of the speaking english level of the french people?

I just see some brit or ricans saying "france ci, france ça.." etc.... the usual bla bla when we are speaking of "france".
ego at it's best, you see!

Some people here are speaking it will enough, some other not. So what? How many french speaker, comparing to the population of his country, is able to speak english?
How many english speaker, comparing to the population of his country, is able to speak french?

It's not like if we lived in an english country, or lived 7d/24h a year with english.
there is not professional point for 90% of the population here to speak english or any other language.
if your professionnal job request it, then you have to choose your studdies accordinely and then you will be able to learn it.
if you are still bad at it even after learning it, then you just have to enlist someone able to do the job. you see?

now, from a personal point, everyone is free of his choice to learn another language.
but actually, from my point of view, this is not "vital". not a necessity. it's not something you couldn't live without.

so, like it or not, but it's working that way. don't worry, french people will not be getting poor or be living in ghetto just because they don't speak english. this is just a little "plus". nothing more.

encore heureux qu'on soit pas obligé d'apprendre la langue de tous les touristes qui viennent chez nous, juste pour faire plaisir à leur petite amie...:roll:p-)

Ahhhh... sometimes i wonder what would be the life without MP.net threads.. like we use to say, if it didn't existed, we should invent it.. (or not)

[Erik Sleivöks]

I was positively surprised last week when I was on vacation in France.

Even if I speak fluent French myself, my wife don’t speak a word of French, but everybody (airports, railway stations, hotels, restaurants) replied in generally very good English and was very helpful towards her (maybe because she had a big gorilla of a husband behind her carrying all the bags).

Anyway there have been great improvements in English among the French since I first visited France in 1985.

Bravo et vive la France!!:):)

[Mr.K]

Send Mr. White , the american teacher from Georgia ;)

[PVJ]

Standard mandarin is actually pretty easy to memorize. You dont need perfect ****unciation or exact phrases, people know what you mean. Theres lots of Chinese immigrants at my school. When i say some phrase in mandarin that i learn, to them in Chinese it sounds like a immigrant in the US saying something with an accent. Like "vat iz dis ting" but in Chinese. I cant write or read mandarin but i know enough i can rougly communicate with some people in Chinese. Im in Canada so i had to take 1 semester of French, and i can get by in France or Quebec even though i only know like 5 percent of the entire language. Learning some important and common phrases is enough. Instead of accepting English as universal language and saying Fvck you to thousands of previous generations of people who spoke French, Spanish, German, Danish, etc. People should learn many different languages even if its only a few phrases.

[Eoin666]

The only reason english seems universal is because the US is the richest economy in the world so naturally most people who want to do business with the US learn english. In a few decades we are all gonna be learning Hindi and Mandarin.

A major point you're missing is not that it's also the language of the US (a big plus though obviously, being the major economy, and previously the British empire) but that like the British, it's a mongrel language, made up of Germanic, Gaelic, French/Norman, Scandanavian, Frisian, Latin, Greek, now also with Indian loan words. Its great strength is that it takes from other languages as well as simply adding new words all the time. It already has the greatest number of words of any language in the world. French by contrast even tried to ban the anglofied word "computer" from their language. The language like many others doesn't adapt and evolve.

When at Uni we had a visiting Chinese professor of English living with us, his grammer and written standards were excellent, but spoken English was terrible, why, because they learn from Chinese English speakers, not native speakers so their ****unciation is dire. And really what's more important, that you can converse with someone or write a critique of a Shakespeare sonnet!

BTW I'm currently trying to learn Vietnamese :cantbeli:


numbers only in Dutch.......

Ha.....you as well :)


Egad, a Brueggenite ! :lol:
English is easy to learn as it doesnt have the Sie and Du rules now ( it did have Thee and Thou )

We still do in the black country dialect


Bruggen Indeed, Closing down soon and being handed over to Lufthansa. Relocating to St Athens.
No doubt a Bruggen 10 t-shirt lurks in your closet!
BritSig.

Funny that, I was posted from there to sunny St Athen's, that old chestnut I was told Don't put a negative posting choice down, and I ignored it, end ended up in that craphole......and then promptly put in for o'seas again.

[LaoSexMachine]

Theres a point - how do the Spanish feel ? It could be argued that in the Americas, Spanish is at least as important as English

It is but depends where you work. Most native Spanish speaker I have talked to want to learn English. They even said that to move up in the job market in America you need to know basic English.

[boreal]

http://letutor.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/orangejuice.jpg

This mexicans are quite funny, and very good guys......

[toki]

Everybody should have command of the english language.

But there's another point, an internal problem. I'm sure it's similar in French and German. The languages should get rid of too many angliciisms. OK i hate them anyway, but why degenerating your own language, when it's good enough to speak english as a second language. The German language is awash with oddly even falsely integrated english bits. German endings on english words or just using wrong english sayings and integrate it into a German sentence. I blame the advertising industry.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Everybody should have command of the english language.

But there's another point, an internal problem. I'm sure it's similar in French and German. The languages should get rid of too many angliciisms. OK i hate them anyway, but why degenerating your own language, when it's good enough to speak english as a second language. The German language is awash with oddly even falsely integrated english bits. German endings on english words or just using wrong english sayings and integrate it into a German sentence. I blame the advertising industry.NOt directly related, but I found it funny. Just today a German magazine showed up in my mail.

"AssCompact".
http://www.asscompact.de/
It is a mag for finance types.

You'd think they could have come up with a better title, although it is a bit catchy...

Another favorite is when the German sports studio team was at the 2002 Olympics parading around in their new kit for the world to see.

Das aktuelle Sport Studio.

"ASS Team"

In a globalized world, you'd think somebody would be paying more attention.

[Telmar]

Everybody should have command of the english language.

But there's another point, an internal problem. I'm sure it's similar in French and German. The languages should get rid of too many angliciisms. OK i hate them anyway, but why degenerating your own language, when it's good enough to speak english as a second language. The German language is awash with oddly even falsely integrated english bits. German endings on english words or just using wrong english sayings and integrate it into a German sentence. I blame the advertising industry.

Some words dont exist occasionnaly and have to be borrowed such as "marketing" that some purists wanted transformed into "mercatique"...No success there.

When anglicisms are absorbed by French, they keep their original spelling. I find it quite confusing for kids learning how to spell.

Slovaks are fascinating about this because they change the spelling to match the phonetics such as:

tinizer: teenager (had to read it out loud to understand)
dizajn: design
vikend: (coming in 2 days :))

and so on..

[RSone]

Damn, and I thought Dutch was Anglicized........

[oldsoak]

Another problem is the language of science is English. A lot of the scientific terms and descriptions are created by English speakers. For some its easier to adopt the English terms rather than invent and equivalent French or German or Spanish term. Plus you have a lot of "youth" cultural stuff exported from the the UK and the US - music, clothing etc.

[oldsoak]

Damn, and I thought Dutch was Anglicized........

In Norfolk, a lot of the English were "Dutch-ified" :-) due to the large number of Dutch immigrants from way back. Look at our word Yacht...

[toki]

NOt directly related, but I found it funny. Just today a German magazine showed up in my mail.

"AssCompact".
http://www.asscompact.de/
It is a mag for finance types.

You'd think they could have come up with a better title, although it is a bit catchy...


Did you even notice those "high society" chicks, Baronesse blah blah or XYZ von Anhalt? "Ich bin pretty surprised, das ist echt wonderful hier."... :bash:

The kind of people who can't really speak english are the worst.

[RSone]

In Norfolk, a lot of the English were "Dutch-ified" :-) due to the large number of Dutch immigrants from way back. Look at our word Yacht...


I don't know if that can be attributed to immigrants alone. We have had a enormous influence on naval terms because of our Superpower status during the mideval/golden age.

Forlorn Hope, for example is a translation of the Dutch "verloren hoop" which means something along the lines of lost bunch.
Keelhauling is the translation of "Kielhalen" which means "to drag along the keel"

Deck is the English version of our "Dek", which means covering.

Our "Boei" has turned into the English buoy.

Wiki lists more



Drill, from the verb drillen, to train/instruct
Freebooter (Pirate), from vrijbuiter.
Yacht, from jacht meaning hunt
Pump, from pomp.
Sloop, from sloep.
Skipper, from schipper meaning someone who ships.
Keel, from kiel
Maelstrom, from maalstroom meaning "strong current" (borrowed via a Nordic language)
Forlorn hope, from verloren hoop "lost hope".
Cruiser, from the verb to cruise from Dutch doorkruisen meaning to sail or go to.
Brandy, from Dutch brandewijn, burning wine.

and many more.


EDIT: I've found a Wikipdia page which lists a whole ****load of English words that are of Dutch origin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Dutch_origin
Some are pretty funny. Apparently "Yankee" comes from our Jan Kees(which is a personal name)
I quote:
Yankee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yankee) from Jan Kees, a personal name, originally used mockingly to describe pro-French revolutionary citizens, with allusion to the small keeshond (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeshond) dog, then for "colonials" in New Amsterdam (Note: this is not the only possible etymology for the word yankee. For one thing, the Oxford English Dictionary has quotes with the term from as early as 1765, quite some time before the French Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution).) [122] (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Yankee)

[toki]

Drill, from the verb drillen, to train/instruct
Freebooter (Pirate), from vrijbuiter.
Yacht, from jacht meaning hunt
Pump, from pomp.
Sloop, from sloep.
Skipper, from schipper meaning someone who ships.
Keel, from kiel
Maelstrom, from maalstroom meaning "strong current" (borrowed via a Nordic language)
Forlorn hope, from verloren hoop "lost hope".
Cruiser, from the verb to cruise from Dutch doorkruisen meaning to sail or go to.
Brandy, from Dutch brandewijn, burning wine.

and many more.

Are you 100% sure it isn't just borrowed from the Germanic language family in general? Freibeuter in German makes 100% sense and isn't neccessarily borrowed of vrijbuiter, but just the same two words in German. Unlike english where this word is obviously just transformed and doesn't make too much sense.

Brandewijn in Dutch Brandwein in German. This could go on.

[oldsoak]

..all these German landsknechts and Walloon mercanaries we hired years ago....

[RSone]

Seeing as you Germanz took over a lot of Dutch words(as we did with German words, to this day, i don't get why the flying pelican **** we use words like überhaupt) i'm inclined to believe the words are really Dutch. But you never know, as German and Dutch are rather similar.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Did you even notice those "high society" chicks, Baronesse blah blah or XYZ von Anhalt? "Ich bin pretty surprised, das ist echt wonderful hier."... :bash:

The kind of people who can't really speak english are the worst.
I hear it all the time in the business world.

Wir pushen unsere Efforts zum Top-Level, damit wir die Connection zu den End Consumers realizen können.

Huh?

I can live with that I suppose, but what is really laughable are those numerous occasions when words are used incorrectly or in the wrong context.

But yeah, marketing guys are responsible.

[RSone]

..all these German landsknechts and Walloon mercanaries we hired years ago....

Wallonians typically do not speak Dutch. They speak Wallonian French. That's not to say no Wallonian speaks Dutch, but the Wallonians i've met, those of them that spoke Dutch(Flemish), generally had a very poor command of the language.

You have to understand that Flemish and Dutch only mutually intelligable to a certain degree. The Flemish use a lot of words and expressions we find strange, to say the least. Dutch television shows tend to be subtitled. Same with the few Flemish shows that air here. If a Flemish person goes off on a tangent in some regional dialect, i'm not going to be able to understand him. Algemeen Nederlands (General Dutch) is the preferred way of communicating between The Netherlands and Belgium(the Flemish)

[toki]

Seeing as you Germanz took over a lot of Dutch words(as we did with German words, to this day, i don't get why the flying pelican **** we use words like überhaupt) i'm inclined to believe the words are really Dutch. But you never know, as German and Dutch are rather similar.

A few years ago i had an argument with a dutch jew (in english), but he overheard me talking german...
(sounds good, doesn't it?) LOL

Whatever, i used words he insisted we "stole from the jews". Ok, Meschugge is pretty yiddish, we use it too. But Quatsch? We came to a point where we decided it's not borrowing or stealing, if it's used for a long time and when languages have a intertwined history. Just as Dutch and German. Both have a common ancestor. You cannot say who "stole" which word.

[Adux]

People should learn sanskrit, rest of the language's are just for whimps! ;)









PS: I dont know a word of it though

[toki]

People should learn sanskrit, rest of the language's are just for whimps! ;)
PS: I dont know a word of it though

Proto Indo European language... Sanskrit is closer to German than other Asian languages.

[Adux]

Proto Indo European language... Sanskrit is closer to German than other Asian languages.

Swastika anyone!

Nazi Swastika

http://web.reed.edu/luce/chapman/Swastikas/Nazi%20Swastika.gif


Hindu Swastika

http://www.swastika-info.com/images/current_news/hindukerzenswastika.jpg

[Adux]

Some times I wonder if the Aryan Invasion was true after all.

Though swastika's above mean completely different things, where on refers to bigotry, racism, intolerence while other calls for peace!

[filochard]

it's a mongrel language, made up of Germanic, Gaelic, French/Norman, Scandanavian, Frisian, Latin, Greek, now also with Indian loan words.

The Norman spoke french. There were in france for 3 century before invading England and arrived in france without wife. They were completely francized at the time of invasion.



French by contrast even tried to ban the anglofied word "computer" from their language. The language like many others doesn't adapt and evolve.


true but computer is a bad example: the word "ordinateur" we use instead of "computer" existed before the word computer existed. Like "avion" instead of "plane" or "logiciel" instead of "harware", etc..
True though that France tries to francify new english words, sometime it work, sometime not.

Now I like the idea of an international langage. I would have prefered it would be french, we had our chance, or esperanto, but it happen it's english. So lets be pargmatic and go for english.
The french students generally spend 8 years learning english with little success though I think they speak english better than most peole think. It's just that in france we are reluctant to speak english specialy to tourist who do not the effort to say "bonjours, parlez vous anglais?" (hello, do you speak english).

Now english as an international langage isn't a bad choice: it's short, it's easy to learn enough to communicate and nobody cares if you don't speak it well. Thing is the french are a little @ssholish with the langage: if you don't speak it perfectly they'll regard you as half retarded.

[oldsoak]

"The Norman spoke french. There were in france for 3 century before invading England and arrived in france without wife. They were completely francized at the time of invasion."

- eh ? They left the blondes at home ? alone ? :-P

Was it French though ? I was given to understand that it was a bast*rdised language with elements of both - which was a reason why they were considered "uncouth" by the French.

[Mackie]

Everybody should have command of the english language.

But there's another point, an internal problem. I'm sure it's similar in French and German. The languages should get rid of too many angliciisms. OK i hate them anyway, but why degenerating your own language, when it's good enough to speak english as a second language. The German language is awash with oddly even falsely integrated english bits. German endings on english words or just using wrong english sayings and integrate it into a German sentence. I blame the advertising industry.

New technlogies or branches are often introduced global and not national.
World becomes simply closer and marketing faster what overleap regional developments.

[toki]

true but computer is a bad example: the word "ordinateur" we use instead of "computer" existed before the word computer existed. Like "avion" instead of "plane" or "logiciel" instead of "harware", etc..
True though that France tries to francify new english words, sometime it work, sometime not.


"Computer" is more and more replaced with Rechner (somehow "calculator") in German. The geeks or the IT people probably started it, now everybody does it. An example how things can go into the other direction.

[RSone]

lol, there is no real Dutch word for Computer. It just is Computer, always has been. Alternatively one can also use PC, which is used more like an acronym than a abbreviation.

[oldsoak]

lol, there is no real Dutch word for Computer. It just is Computer, always has been. Alternatively one can also use PC, which is used more like an acronym than a abbreviation.

- which makes translation of a technical document from Dutch into English easier, as the same terms are used.

[Adux]

I have heard so many times, that somehow sanskrit is the best suited language for a Computer-man interface!

[boreal]

..all these German landsknechts and Walloon mercanaries we hired years ago....


My family cames from walloon mercenaries S. XVIII

[Eoin666]

Damn, and I thought Dutch was Anglicized........

I don't think English has taken that many Dutch words, the odd few loan words from immigrants and left over Afrikaans. The similarity between English and some Dutch is due to English being the closest relative of Frisian. Now that is really weird for an English speaker to be in continental Europe, not able to read or write the language, but understand a lot of it when it's spoken to you.

"The English language is also closely related to West Frisian. There is a saying about it: "As milk is to cheese, are English and Fries." Another version of this saying reads (in West Frisian): "Bûter, brea, en griene tsiis; wa't dat net sizze kin, is gjin oprjochte Fries", which in English reads: "Butter, bread, and green cheese, whoever can't say that is no upright Fries" (According to legend, the 16th century Frisian freedom fighter Pier Gerlofs Donia forced his captives to repeat this shibboleth to distinguish Frisians from Dutch and Low Germans). The saying plays on the sound differences between the Dutch and Frisian words for "butter, bread, and green cheese", which in Frisian are ****ounced almost identically to their English counterparts (showing the original closeness between the two languages), while in Dutch ("Boter, brood, en groene kaas"), these words sound quite different".

[BAF]

lol it would be a good thing they would learn englisch, but i have come across a few frenchies who could speak englisch real good. but the french always have been a little chauvinistic about their language + i'm flemisch so i know first hand how difficult they can be about it,but hey they arent all bad , were all on the same team :)

[ren0312]

People should just revive classical Latin as the language of the world and get over with it.

[RSone]

I don't think English has taken that many Dutch words, the odd few loan words from immigrants and left over Afrikaans. The similarity between English and some Dutch is due to English being the closest relative of Frisian. Now that is really weird for an English speaker to be in continental Europe, not able to read or write the language, but understand a lot of it when it's spoken to you.

"The English language is also closely related to West Frisian. There is a saying about it: "As milk is to cheese, are English and Fries." Another version of this saying reads (in West Frisian): "Bûter, brea, en griene tsiis; wa't dat net sizze kin, is gjin oprjochte Fries", which in English reads: "Butter, bread, and green cheese, whoever can't say that is no upright Fries" (According to legend, the 16th century Frisian freedom fighter Pier Gerlofs Donia forced his captives to repeat this shibboleth to distinguish Frisians from Dutch and Low Germans). The saying plays on the sound differences between the Dutch and Frisian words for "butter, bread, and green cheese", which in Frisian are ****ounced almost identically to their English counterparts (showing the original closeness between the two languages), while in Dutch ("Boter, brood, en groene kaas"), these words sound quite different".

Donia is better known by the name of Grutte Pier(Big Pete......p-))
although that is still not widely known outside of Fryslân.

Outside of that one sentence, Frisian is very different. Many words sound the same, but aren't the same. Trust me, i'm trying to learn Frisian, am from a Frisian family, and i still find it hard as nails.

[oldsoak]

Frisian is closely related to Old English - you know the Beowulf stuff, quaffing virgins, bedding monsters and killing ales - I did get that right didnt I ?......

[toki]

Frisian is closely related to Old English - you know the Beowulf stuff, quaffing virgins, bedding monsters and killing ales - I did get that right didnt I ?......

Frisians are the butt of jokes in Germany. (East-Friesians - the people who live in very northwestern Germany).

[DaGreatRV]

As stated before, managers have a tendancy to use a lot of english words.
I really was wondering why he didn't do the meetings in english entirely. :roll:
Well I do have to admit it was a US company, but the people who worked there were overall dutch.
(Perhaps it's a result of american management culture, I mean why did they need to use propaganda on us the entire time, were not buying their products. :| )

Also if for instance a german speaking person joins the conversation everybody seems to switch to german automaticly, me included. We're real language whores :-(.

[toki]

Also if for instance a german speaking person joins the conversation everybody seems to switch to german automaticly, me included. We're real language whores :-(.
If i drive into the Netherlands, to a certain distance behind the border i don't even bother to speak english. Anybody will speak German, i tried sometimes because it can come across as rude, but when you're the only customer speaking english and everybody else does it German you don't mind anymore. Many dutch, especially in a shopping situation expect you to speak German and reply in German. That only works relatively close to the border though. But nobody here would speak dutch, only a few near the border can, probably due to relatives.

But unlike in Belgium it's not official. The Belgian German speaking minority has some funky Rheinland spin off accent btw.

[Eoin666]

Also if for instance a german speaking person joins the conversation everybody seems to switch to german automaticly, me included. We're real language whores :-(.


If i drive into the Netherlands, to a certain distance behind the border i don't even bother to speak english. Anybody will speak German, i tried sometimes because it can come across as rude, but when you're the only customer speaking english and everybody else does it German you don't mind anymore. Many dutch, especially in a shopping situation expect you to speak German and reply in German. That only works relatively close to the border though. But nobody here would speak dutch, only a few near the border can, probably due to relatives.

When I used to cross from Germany to Holland carrying D.Marks Dutch shop owners would swap into speaking German, then when I looked blankly back at them they immediately switched into English.

Most Dutch people I know will treat a German speaking German in Holland like the Germans treat the English, and French treat everyone else :)

[RSone]

Frisians are the butt of jokes in Germany. (East-Friesians - the people who live in very northwestern Germany).

Oddly enough we don't have that with the Frisians here(in North Holland). Maybe because "we" are more similar to the people in the Randstad than we like to admit. Dutch people usually only do stereotypes of each other,like the farmer hick near the border(in the Achterhoek) and the slightly too bourgondic Limburger from down south(with the funny accent) We LOVE to make jokes about Belgians and Germans though though,and i'm sure Ze Germanz and the Belgians like to do the same.

Frisian is the only other officially recognized language in The Netherlands, besides Dutch, although it is only used within Fryslân itself. Even then you have tons of dialects. I have family in Het Bildt(near the north coast), who speak their own little Bildt dialect. Go south 30-40 Km and you find people talking UrbanFrisian(which is a mix of dutch and frisian)

Despite the supposedly different ethnogenesis(although,seeing the extent of the early Frisian Kingdoms, it's entirely possible that every Dutchman has a bit of Frisian blood) "we" are not treated differently. Frisians are Dutch, like the rest of the country, and that's the way they see it themselves. You have a few crazy people that want to secceed out of the Kingdom, but that is a very very fringe group, nowhere near as large as the Flemish Nationalists in Belgium. In fact, i was in Leeuwarden(the Province capital) a while ago,during Liberation Day and the Remembrance of the Dead, and it is pretty much the most royalist province i've ever seen. Dutch and Frisian flags were literally everywhere.


The fact that Germans are occasionally not treated very well, is due to the fact that we are culturally "drilled" not to like Germans, because of the War.

I'm sure many Germans have heard a Dutchman joke that "his Grandpa still hasn't got his bike back".
Germans also tend to behave in ways that are a bit strange to us, like digging a hole when they're at the beach,and dumping all their stuff(which tends to be a lot) and themselves in it.They then act surprised when someone else has taken their "spot" when they return the next day,or being loud/drunk/obnoxious in public,like the Brits reallyp-):).

Although the "hatred" of Ze Germanz will probably never totally extinguish, it is getting better. Maybe because we (again.......) are more alike then we like to admit.

[Eoin666]

I'm sure many Germans have heard a Dutchman joke that "his Grandpa still hasn't got his bike back".
Germans also tend to behave in ways that are a bit strange to us, like digging a hole when they're at the beach,and dumping all their stuff(which tends to be a lot) and themselves in it.They then act surprised when someone else has taken their "spot" when they return the next day,or being loud/drunk/obnoxious in public,like the Brits reallyp-):).


Must be the German way of claiming their bit of territory. Reminds me of the Eddie Izzard sketch about the British empire.
A ship lands in some far off country and the captian claims it for England.
"You can't do that, we live here" says the local......
"Ah, but do you have a flag"

[RSone]

Must be the German way of claiming their bit of territory. Reminds me of the Eddie Izzard sketch about the British empire.
A ship lands in some far off country and the captian claims it for England.
"You can't do that, we live here" says the local......
"Ah, but do you have a flag"

I've never seen a German carry around a German flag around here. That's like an invitation to get your arse kicked. Especially during ANY football match. I mean, were kinda cool with Ze Germanz these days, but that's too much to ask from usp-):)

"I, Helmut, Claim zis land for ze great Prussian Empire, ehhhhrm I mean ze German Republic. LONG LIVE ZE EMPEROR eeehrm............................."

[DS73]

Are you 100% sure it isn't just borrowed from the Germanic language family in general? Freibeuter in German makes 100% sense and isn't neccessarily borrowed of vrijbuiter, but just the same two words in German. Unlike english where this word is obviously just transformed and doesn't make too much sense.

Brandewijn in Dutch Brandwein in German. This could go on.
Did germans have significant fleet? pirates?
Brandy originated in seamen tradition as well.
There are plenty of words that came from german language, not surprisingly connected with land engineering.

[Indiana Jones]

Did germans have significant fleet? pirates?
Brandy originated in seamen tradition as well.
There are plenty of words that came from german language, not surprisingly connected with land engineering.
Perhaps go from there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_St%C3%B6rtebeker

[RSone]

Not only German cities were part of the Hanseatic League.