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gc
09-03-2008, 11:48 AM
This is rather mind boggling. I don't see how Russia will export systems with full capabilitities to someone who made it clear that the only purpose of buying those systems where to find ways to defeat it. NATO should be behind Turkey's effort to acquire the S-400 then. They gonna enjoy taking it apart and developing ECM systems to jam the latest Russian Air defense system.


Turkey to Buy Russian Surface-to-Air Missiles to Develop Countermeasures
Posted by Christina Mackenzie at 9/3/2008 9:20 AM CDT

Turkey is apparently willing to pay some $100 million to buy Russian surface-to-air SA 10 Grumble, SA-12b Giant and SA-15 Gauntlet missiles from Belarus and Ukraine so that its F-16 pilots can practice shooting them down... or at least test the best ways of countering them with F-16s using the EHTS system which has been moved from Eskisehir to the Konya Air Base, where a regional combat readiness simulation center is located.


According to yesterday's Zamman, Turkey's leading English-language daily, “these missile systems are intended to be used for testing and training purposes to simulate threats that may come from countries with ex-Soviet systems in their inventories.”

The decision to buy these missile systems was made on July 22 but was not made public.

Today's Zamman quotes a “well-informed local defense industry source” as saying that “the missile systems were not purchased to be launched against perceived enemies and they will not be included in the inventory of the Turkish Armed Forces. They will be tested at the Konya range with EHTS systems. Their radars and fire control systems are to be bought separately.”

The source added that during the tests those systems will be jammed, enabling Turkey to develop counter systems.


This project is entirely independent of Turkey's $4 billion acquisition program for a dozen or so long-range air and missile defense systems. That tender, launched in March 2007, is being competed for by Lockheed Martin and Raytheon which have jointly offered a combination of Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC3) and PAC 2 low-to-high-altitude surface-to-air missiles, and by China which is offering the HQ-9 (export designation FD-2000) air-defense system. Israel's IAI is tendering the Arrow while Russia's Rosoboronexport is competing with the S-400.

The United States has raised concerns that if NATO-member Turkey were to purchase Russian missiles it would create an inter-operability problem with NATO.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a9441f35c-b72a-4409-97a7-25f91e154613

oldsoak
09-03-2008, 11:55 AM
Russians have "export" versions of their high end kit. Its not quite the same standard as the stuff they keep at home. Even the trusted allies dont get quite the same gear. Looks like the Turks wanted the same version as the Syrians - no problems for the Russians there.

KilRemgor
09-03-2008, 11:59 AM
There's little reason even for Russians not to sell S-300's, as USA have purchased one older version long ago, Greece has PMU-1s versions from Cyprus purchase, Slovaks used S-300 in NATO training exercise, and other things like that. After SU breakup there were plenty of those systems left in non-Russian states, and Russians sold many such systems.
Somebody still being concerned about that system (or purchasing it) means it's kinda great.

chinese HQ-9 was initially based on Patriot design, but when Rusians offered them S-300 tech, they reworked the system.
It is even rumored that PAC-2 was built by US while having the S-300 they bought in consideration.

As for S-400, Russians' plan is likely simple: sell it and earn huge cash to speed up development of S-500. They did similar thing with S-300.

Somebody having your system, if it's not easily counterable crap, is not a magic cheat 'all your systems are now disabled!!!' So they are probably not that worried... they are phasing out S-300 anyway.

It's only US that is having such tight export restrictions... even Israel gladly sells Merkava 3, withholding only the newest Mk4.

aed1980
09-03-2008, 12:00 PM
Do they have the Patriot?

Cornerstone
09-03-2008, 12:19 PM
This is rather mind boggling. I don't see how Russia will export systems with full capabilitities to someone who made it clear that the only purpose of buying those systems where to find ways to defeat it.

unless their sure they can build something a lot better, something that cant be shot down or jammed...

a laser missle defense system maybe

PVJ
09-03-2008, 12:58 PM
Obviously the export version of Russian equipment is watered down. Russia isnt stupid enough to sell its most advanced military technology to a NATO country. Its like China getting a F22 with all the advanced avionics and etc.

Afro-European
09-03-2008, 12:58 PM
This is rather mind boggling. I don't see how Russia will export systems with full capabilitities to someone who made it clear that the only purpose of buying those systems where to find ways to defeat it. NATO should be behind Turkey's effort to acquire the S-400 then. They gonna enjoy taking it apart and developing ECM systems to jam the latest Russian Air defense system.

The US bought an S-300V system for evaluation and to help upgrade Patriots with superior technology that could be (or was) taken upon evaluation of S-300V.-->Google.

Afro-European
09-03-2008, 01:01 PM
Obviously the export version of Russian equipment is watered down. Russia isnt stupid enough to sell its most advanced military technology to a NATO country. Its like China getting a F22 with all the advanced avionics and etc.
Co-sign.Cezch Republic,Germany,Bulgaria,Slovakia,Greece and Cyprus already have (the downgraded version) that system in their AA ****nals.

ocean
09-03-2008, 01:06 PM
On one hand Turkey is support Georgia against Russia, on the other hand Turkey is buying Russia advanced arms. How wierd? Is it really to be compromised? If so, then what else of the secrets does Russia still have..

Jaguar
09-03-2008, 01:09 PM
Greeks will not be very happy...

Vorian
09-03-2008, 01:34 PM
Greeks will not be very happy...

Nah, we prepare to buy S-400 soon. Until Turks manage to "break" S-300 (if they get it which is unlikely) S-500 will be ready.

Snoshi
09-03-2008, 01:37 PM
Nah, we prepare to buy S-400 soon. Until Turks manage to "break" S-300 (if they get it which is unlikely) S-500 will be ready.

yeah.. Russia AFAIK has only one battery of S-400 and you are already talking about export?

Based on what do you think that Turks wont be able to "break" it? Israel for example will probably help.

0rphie
09-03-2008, 01:41 PM
Nah, we prepare to buy S-400 soon. Until Turks manage to "break" S-300 (if they get it which is unlikely) S-500 will be ready.
Wait guys! are Turkey and Greece already at war? let me guess what side NATO will take in this conflict....

PVJ
09-03-2008, 01:46 PM
On one hand Turkey is support Georgia against Russia, on the other hand Turkey is buying Russia advanced arms. How wierd? Is it really to be compromised? If so, then what else of the secrets does Russia still have..

Turkeys bilateral trade with Russia in 2005 - 15,000,000,000

Turkeys bilateral trade with Georgia in 2005 - 570,000,000


http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/business/articles/eav020806.shtml

Vorian
09-03-2008, 01:47 PM
Wait guys! are Turkey and Greece already at war? let me guess what side NATO will take in this conflict....

It's called arms race.



Russia AFAIK has only one battery of S-400 and you are already talking about export?

Based on what do you think that Turks wont be able to "break" it? Israel for example will probably help.

I didn't mean tomorrow.....if they do buy it will take some time to be delivered. And it's not so easy to find electronic counter-measures for a weapon system, if it is, who says Russians are going to sell anyway?

valtrex
09-03-2008, 01:48 PM
Wait guys! are Turkey and Greece already at war? let me guess what side NATO will take in this conflict....
Pontius Pilate: "When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person"

Vorian
09-03-2008, 01:58 PM
rofl rofl rofl rofl Good one valtrex

saladin
09-03-2008, 01:59 PM
Turkey has quarterly large scale exercise called Anatolian Eagle. This exercise involves both air-to-air and air-to-ground missions. In air-to-ground missions, Turkey wants to have all radars used by her possible advesaries. As you know Greece has S-300s and greek cyproits have TOR.

The new purchases will also used to test ECM systems. Here is the origin of this news:

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=151109&bolum=102

NATO member Turkey has quietly decided to buy variants of three different S-300 missile systems from Belarus and Ukraine to test them at the Konya training center with the Electronic Warfare Training Field (EHTS) system built by local firm Havelsan.

"These missile systems are intended to be used for testing and training purposes to simulate threats that may come from countries with ex-Soviet systems in their inventories," a local defense industry source told Today's Zaman. The decision to buy former Soviet-designated SA-12 (300V version) and SA-10 (S-300) missile systems, as well as SA-15 short and medium-range TOR systems, at a cost of around $100 million, was made during an executive committee meeting of the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM) on July 22, but it was not made public. Sources close to the project said the systems will be tested mainly with F-16s using the EHTS system, which has been moved from Eskişehir to the central Anatolian town of Konya, some 250 kilometers from Ankara, where a regional combat readiness simulation center is located.

Tests with these missile systems will, amongst other things, help Turkey detect whether the Greek Cypriot administration, which has Russian S-300s in its inventory, has been using them.

"The missile systems were not purchased to be launched against perceived enemies and they will not be included in the inventory of the Turkish Armed Forces [TSK]. They will be tested at the Konya range with EHTS systems. Their radars and fire control systems are to be bought separately," a well-informed local defense industry source said.

During the tests those systems will be jammed, enabling Turkey to develop counter systems, said the same source.

Turkey has been holding combined air training exercises, code-named Anatolia Eagle, with Turkish jets and jets from allied and partner countries such as Israel, Pakistan and Jordan at the Konya training center.

The center, opened in 2001, also hosts Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation (ACMI) systems, which feature software developed by the Israel-based firm MLM. ACMI systems are capable of transferring in-flight images from jets to command headquarters.

In a separate development, Turkey is planning to include about a dozen long-range air and missile defense systems, worth around $4 billion, in its inventory for the first time.

An international tender was opened last year in March by the SSM for the acquisition of the missiles in which four companies are competing.

Official Russian procurement agency Rosoboronexport, however, has also renewed an earlier offer for the direct sale of S-400 missiles to Turkey as an alternative to Russian participation in the tender.

SSM head Murad Bayar told the Anatolia news agency recently that initially two of the missile systems will be installed in Ankara and in İstanbul, the country's two biggest cities.

US-based firms Lockheed Martin and Raytheon have jointly offered a combination of Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC 3) and PAC 2 low-to-high-altitude surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) based on foreign military sales credit in the SSM tender.

The Chinese HQ-9 (reported export designation FD-2000) air-defense system, as well as Israel Aerospace Industries' (IAI) Arrow missiles, developed jointly with Boeing, are also competing in the tender.

However, the main competition has been taking place between Russia and the US, as the latter has already raised concerns with Ankara that the purchase of Russian missiles will create an inter-operability problem with NATO.

Jaguar
09-03-2008, 02:09 PM
Weel, after some net research it´s no big deal.
S-300 system aren´t excatly new to NATO. The US has evaluated the S-300PS or S-300PMU and we can assume that Greece's S-300PMU-1 have been evaluated by now. Of course russian PS and PM versions might have diferent systems.

Snoshi
09-03-2008, 02:13 PM
Weel, after some net research it´s no big deal.
S-300 system aren´t excatly new to NATO. The US has evaluated the S-300PS or S-300PMU and we can assume that Greece's S-300PMU-1 have been evaluated by now. Of course russian PS and PM versions might have diferent systems.

How do you think it is for the buyers? How would they feel if they know that NATO, Israel and other countries know all the specefications of S-300.

Vorian
09-03-2008, 02:21 PM
Greece closed its systems during the great exercise with Israel. That shows something.

Snoshi
09-03-2008, 02:22 PM
Greece closed its systems during the great exercise with Israel. That shows something.

Dosent matter.. Like others have said.. NATO countries have these systems and Turkey will probably get it too..

MZKT
09-03-2008, 02:23 PM
yeah.. Russia AFAIK has only one battery of S-400 and you are already talking about export?

Actually Almaz-Antey director himself said it. The system will be offered for export from 2009 on, today's russian military industry prefer foreign orders over domestic. Greece should just order early enough, not that it shares the fate of syrian Pantsir-order (production line being booked out by UAE order for several years)

Jaguar
09-03-2008, 02:33 PM
How do you think it is for the buyers? How would they feel if they know that NATO, Israel and other countries know all the specefications of S-300.

The point is US already know about S-300´s specifications, at least said export(?) versions.

Why countries still buy the thing? I don´t know exactly, maybe because there is many missile variants, the possibility of changing frequencies and operating modes for each customer and the fact that the system is extremely good.

Snoshi
09-03-2008, 02:42 PM
Why countries still buy the thing? I don´t know exactly, maybe because there is many missile variants, the possibility of changing frequencies and operating modes for each customer and the fact that the system is extremely good.

Or because most of the countries that get S-300 cannot get Western systems, expect Greece of course or Cyprus to be precise which would not able to get any effective SAM system from any western country.

Jaguar
09-03-2008, 02:50 PM
Or because most of the countries that get S-300 cannot get Western systems, expect Greece of course.

Well, what western systems? In this field SU/Russia, out of necessity, always have been very competent.

Snoshi
09-03-2008, 02:51 PM
Well, what western systems? In this field SU/Russia, out of necessity, always have been very competent.

True.. But it still does not change the fact that most countries who get Russian SAM system are ussualy nations that cannot buy anything from the West.

m.i.t
09-03-2008, 02:58 PM
On one hand Turkey is support Georgia against Russia, .

İt seems not true.Georgia is a small country.Supporting againist huge Russia is meanless.Turkey sold some military vehciles like cobra apc , land rovers ands some unimogs to Georgia.İt was just the trade.Also all neighbours of Turkey get much more stronger arms from Russia like Syria Iran Greece ....

Jaguar
09-03-2008, 03:03 PM
True.. But it still does not change the fact that most countries who get Russian SAM system are ussualy nations that cannot buy anything from the West.

I´m no expert but which western systems were available on international market for the last years? Contrary to our common belief, it seems russian ones are the best there is on the market at the moment.

-CROAT-SOLDIER-
09-03-2008, 03:06 PM
True.. But it still does not change the fact that most countries who get Russian SAM system are ussualy nations that cannot buy anything from the West.

Cause those countries are not trusted enough for the west (mainly US) to sell those types of weapons.

Ulytau
09-03-2008, 03:16 PM
Lol topic goin to turn again Russia - Georgia issue ? rofl as i read from the Defense & Aerospace magazine wont be surprise cause this trainin field start to be really great before doin operations to terrorist targets TuAF seriously trained there ;

Aims of the Anatolian Eagle too ;




To train fighters for victory.
To systematically test and evaluate the fighters’ combat readiness statuses and to manage the tactical training progress.
To build a background and knowledge base in order to make research on tactical aeroneutics.
To make research to allow fighter elements of the Turkish Air Force Command to reach the military goals in the shortest time and with minimum resource and effort.
To support the definition of operational requirements and supply and R&D activities.
To allocate training environment in order to fulfill the requirements of the Turkish Air Force Command.
To support the tests of existing/developed/future weapon/aircraft systems.

TR1
09-03-2008, 03:29 PM
Wow, have fun Turkey. All those unsolved secrets of S-300...what a joke. US already was sold a few S-300Vs in 90s (because the plant needed funding to prevent shutdown). Knowing the strengths and (few) weaknesses of the system does not make it worthless, or anywhere close to worthless.

And no, I don;t see Turkey getting S-400 for some years

oldsoak
09-03-2008, 04:13 PM
Wow, have fun Turkey. All those unsolved secrets of S-300...what a joke. US already was sold a few S-300Vs in 90s (because the plant needed funding to prevent shutdown). Knowing the strengths and (few) weaknesses of the system does not make it worthless, or anywhere close to worthless.

And no, I don;t see Turkey getting S-400 for some years

- think about it Russian1. Russia is not the problem in Turkeys eyes.

Ulytau
09-03-2008, 04:19 PM
- think about it Russian1. Russia is not the problem in Turkeys eyes.


Also Russian Minister of Foreign Affairs visit was great same day Turkish and Russian Naval Forces commanders were making meetin in the TCG Kemalreis at Black Sea too :)

TR1
09-03-2008, 04:27 PM
- think about it Russian1. Russia is not the problem in Turkeys eyes.Well, Greek and Cyrpot S-300s clearly are. Toying around with some S-300s wont make that threat go away, it will give better understanding sure, but thats it.

datalink16
09-03-2008, 05:01 PM
Well, Greek and Cyrpot S-300s clearly are.

Greek or cyprot?

m.i.t
09-03-2008, 05:05 PM
Well, Greek and Cyrpot S-300s clearly are. Toying around with some S-300s wont make that threat go away, it will give better understanding sure, but thats it.

No any S-300 missiles in Cyprus . All of them in Crete island and Greece ....

TR1
09-03-2008, 05:31 PM
My bad, I forgot that they were all deployed in Greece.

JRT
09-03-2008, 05:33 PM
Well, Greek and Cyrpot S-300s clearly are. Toying around with some S-300s wont make that threat go away, it will give better understanding sure, but thats it.

Indeed. No system that has been fielded for decades have that many secrets. It is just as simple for Russia to gather ELINT from NATO GBAD systems by sending a truck with some antennas to southern Germany during the ELITE excercise. Does that make NATO GBAD obsolete?

The same goes with fighter radars... NATO is well aware of the capabilities of the Su-27, just as Russia is with the F-16. Nothing special here, they aren't worthless planes.

datalink16
09-03-2008, 05:54 PM
No any S-300 missiles in Cyprus . All of them in Crete island and Greece ....

why they were deployed to greece?

Vorian
09-03-2008, 06:05 PM
why they were deployed to greece?

Long story....a summary would be:

a)Cyprus purchases S-300
b)Turkey feeling uneasy threatens of bombing them if installed in Cyprus (mind you the Imia crisis was a year before)
c)US steps in and S-300 are stationed in Crete, Greece. They remain there

oldsoak
09-03-2008, 06:12 PM
Well, Greek and Cyrpot S-300s clearly are. Toying around with some S-300s wont make that threat go away, it will give better understanding sure, but thats it.

Possibly - but not necessarily. It might be that Turkey buys the system, lets a third party have a look at it in return for information on how to defeat it.

Nickchios
09-03-2008, 06:17 PM
Long story....a summary would be:

a)Cyprus purchases S-300
b)Turkey feeling uneasy threatens of bombing them if installed in Cyprus (mind you the Imia crisis was a year before)
c)US steps in and S-300 are stationed in Crete, Greece. They remain there

I would like to add...:

The S300 alone in Cyprus was not the best solution for Air defense......

TR1
09-03-2008, 06:17 PM
Well the most logical third party to get that info from would be the United States (or any of its close allies)....who already got a full S-300 complex in the 90s. (The money from this sale was actually used to develop Antey-2500).

PVJ
09-03-2008, 06:18 PM
Possibly - but not necessarily. It might be that Turkey buys the system, lets a third party have a look at it in return for information on how to defeat it.

While all the while Russia keeps working on improving the system and making newer more advanced SAMS for themselves. Its like the Ipod, theres a new one every few months. Russia sells the S300 now while they keep the S-400 for themselves, then sell they sell the S400 while they keep the S500 for themselves. Russian defense industry keeps making money and Russia still keeps the best and most advanced systems for themselves.

Andromeda
09-03-2008, 06:29 PM
It's interesting how many countries are interested in studying a sam system that was designed in the 70's and made operational in the 80's. At this rate they'll start talking about acquiring s-400's and on defeating them around 2030.

sepheronx
09-03-2008, 06:29 PM
While all the while Russia keeps working on improving the system and making newer more advanced SAMS for themselves. Its like the Ipod, theres a new one every few months. Russia sells the S300 now while they keep the S-400 for themselves, then sell they sell the S400 while they keep the S500 for themselves. Russian defense industry keeps making money and Russia still keeps the best and most advanced systems for themselves.

Very smart move indeed. But most likely (with what is going on in the world), they will probably place the newer setups in their allied countries (Belarus hosts most of Russia's missile defense systems, and Syria will be hosting other Russian missile defense systems). If it is benefit for Russia, they will not sell the top of the line to their threat

oldsoak
09-03-2008, 06:31 PM
Well the most logical third party to get that info from would be the United States (or any of its close allies)....who already got a full S-300 complex in the 90s. (The money from this sale was actually used to develop Antey-2500).

- True, but sometimes the US might not want even close allies to know the depth of their knowledge for various reasons. They like to keep a lot of things very close to their chest.

oldsoak
09-03-2008, 06:37 PM
It's interesting how many countries are interested in studying a sam system that was designed in the 70's and made operational in the 80's. At this rate they'll start talking about acquiring s-400's and on defeating them around 2030.

Some systems represent a good benchmark. For instance, the AIM-9M was operational in the 80's and its still a capable AAM. You have to start somewhere if you are trying to develop a capability and the S-300 is a good place to start.

Hellfish
09-03-2008, 07:28 PM
Russians have "export" versions of their high end kit. Its not quite the same standard as the stuff they keep at home. Even the trusted allies dont get quite the same gear. Looks like the Turks wanted the same version as the Syrians - no problems for the Russians there.

The Turks aren't buying from the Russians. Belarus and Ukraine.



It's only US that is having such tight export restrictions... even Israel gladly sells Merkava 3, withholding only the newest Mk4.

Who has Israel sold the Merkava 3 to?

KilRemgor
09-03-2008, 07:31 PM
Who has Israel sold the Merkava 3 to?

It was stated as available for purchase several times, there just doesn't seem to be notable export success yet. Maybe obsession with Leo/M1A1/T-90 (for appropriate countries) has something to do with that.

Rostov
09-03-2008, 07:46 PM
I might be shattering here a whole reality for somebody, so hold on.
If Turkey really wants to rise as a great power, it has to stop being so conspicuous about who it's trying to piss off. Buying Russian equipment to learn about how to defeat it. Thats like a mouse directly walking into a moustrap. Turkey, I hope I made you stronger with this revelation!

Hellfish
09-03-2008, 07:52 PM
It was stated as available for purchase several times, there just doesn't seem to be notable export success yet. Maybe obsession with Leo/M1A1/T-90 (for appropriate countries) has something to do with that.

I haven't heard that. Evidence?

oxxi
09-03-2008, 08:07 PM
I might be shattering here a whole reality for somebody, so hold on.
If Turkey really wants to rise as a great power, it has to stop being so conspicuous about who it's trying to piss off. Buying Russian equipment to learn about how to defeat it. Thats like a mouse directly walking into a moustrap. Turkey, I hope I made you stronger with this revelation!

Nukes dont qualify you to be a superpower and if you think Putin's Ahmedinejad alike propaganda will not scare anybody, we are not intimidated. Your Stalin butchered my ancestors in Crimea and they werent even soldiers, thousands of civilians, so dont act like you have any right to control the world order, you need a lot more catching up to do if you ever gonna challange western world, for once, plain barbarism, thats what your ex-leaders did, now be incharge as a member of a newer generation and be civilised.

KilRemgor
09-03-2008, 08:20 PM
I haven't heard that. Evidence?
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/merkava/MerkavaMk4.html


The Merkava 3 (http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/merkava/MerkavaMk3.html) is offered for export by SIBAT based in Tel Aviv. The Merkava 4 is not offered for export but the systems and components are exported.


army-technology website, as well as few others, has the same info.
Unfortunately SIBAT website:
http://www.sibat.mod.gov.il/SibatMain/sibat/land/overview.htm
is lacking updates from around 2001 (only occasional changes in few pages) and apparently doesn't reflects present state of arms export (tank page is 2001 publication as well). The only way to confirm the sales is to phone SIBAT :)

Codazo
09-03-2008, 08:34 PM
Nukes dont qualify you to be a superpower and if you think Putin's Ahmedinejad alike propaganda will not scare anybody, we are not intimidated. Your Stalin butchered my ancestors in Crimea and they werent even soldiers, thousands of civilians, so dont act like you have any right to control the world order, you need a lot more catching up to do if you ever gonna challange western world, for once, plain barbarism, thats what your ex-leaders did, now be incharge as a member of a newer generation and be civilised.
One word: Armenia.

PVJ
09-03-2008, 08:37 PM
"Your Stalin butchered my ancestors"

Stalin was Georgian.

Hellfish
09-03-2008, 08:40 PM
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/tanks/merkava/MerkavaMk4.html


[/color][/font]army-technology website, as well as few others, has the same info.
Unfortunately SIBAT website:
http://www.sibat.mod.gov.il/SibatMain/sibat/land/overview.htm
is lacking updates from around 2001 (only occasional changes in few pages) and apparently doesn't reflects present state of arms export (tank page is 2001 publication as well). The only way to confirm the sales is to phone SIBAT :)






Interesting. Thanks.


"Your Stalin butchered my ancestors"

Stalin was Georgian.

Hehehehe... I love irony.

deli_dumrul
09-03-2008, 09:24 PM
"Your Stalin butchered my ancestors"

Stalin was Georgian.

So? Was he flying the Georgian flag?


Nukes dont qualify you to be a superpower and if you think Putin's Ahmedinejad alike propaganda will not scare anybody, we are not intimidated. Your Stalin butchered my ancestors in Crimea and they werent even soldiers, thousands of civilians, so dont act like you have any right to control the world order, you need a lot more catching up to do if you ever gonna challange western world, for once, plain barbarism, thats what your ex-leaders did, now be incharge as a member of a newer generation and be civilised.

Look hippie...

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3217789#post3217789



More weaponry, perfect! Just what the world needed.

Remind me to smoke one last joint when humanity will finally manage to destroy every living organism with their high-tech fancy toys.


Don't be a dumb a&& war monger, ok?

I don't think a joint smoking loser living in France is going to be able to help us in the trenches when ***** hits the fan.

gc
09-03-2008, 09:39 PM
The S-300 systems may be watered down and pose no threat to Russia's own systems. But it is not as if anybody is thinking about bombing Moscow. Similarly watered down versions are being exported to countries trying to defend itself and they wouldn't be very happy if similar systems are also exported to potential foes to help them defeat the threat. And mind you, having a close understanding of threat systems helps one defeat the system. Every systems have its vulnerability and letting the enemy find out exactly how to exploit the weakness is not the smartest thing to do. In the last 2 decades, a thorough understanding of the strength and weakness of Russian Single digit SAMs was the key reason why the West was able to operate so effectively against these threats.

oldsoak
09-04-2008, 07:01 AM
The Turks aren't buying from the Russians. Belarus and Ukraine.


:oops:

...I must get out of the cold war mindset and re-arrange the red bits on my map...

serg123
09-04-2008, 07:22 AM
Nukes dont qualify you to be a superpower and if you think Putin's Ahmedinejad alike propaganda will not scare anybody, we are not intimidated. Your Stalin butchered my ancestors in Crimea and they werent even soldiers, thousands of civilians, so dont act like you have any right to control the world order, you need a lot more catching up to do if you ever gonna challange western world, for once, plain barbarism, thats what your ex-leaders did, now be incharge as a member of a newer generation and be civilised.
Hitler like Stalin wasn't a nice guy. Any complains against germans now? There were a lot of indians killed in North America who werent even soldgier. And..? The point is that if you go to mamouth times you always find reason to hate somebody and prove that only you deserve right to define world order. But paranoia never helps in real life.

Jaguar
09-04-2008, 09:01 AM
The Turks aren't buying from the Russians. Belarus and Ukraine.


It seems Turkey can get them directly from Russia, even the S-400 if they want. In Almaz's website (http://www.raspletin.ru/press-centre/news/2008/080603/) they describe all the components using the export designations (babelfish translation, I can´t read in russian).

Btw, S-400 is for strategic air defense, S-500 for ABM and ASAT functions.

m.i.t
09-04-2008, 04:12 PM
It seems Turkey can get them directly from Russia, even the S-400 if they want. In Almaz's website (http://www.raspletin.ru/press-centre/news/2008/080603/) they describe all the components using the export designations (babelfish translation, I can´t read in russian).

Btw, S-400 is for strategic air defense, S-500 for ABM and ASAT functions.


Russia had announced that she was ready to give S-400 export models to Turkey 3 months ago.Also joint production was an optional .

Rostov
09-04-2008, 09:43 PM
Nukes dont qualify you to be a superpower and if you think Putin's Ahmedinejad alike propaganda will not scare anybody, we are not intimidated. Your Stalin butchered my ancestors in Crimea and they werent even soldiers, thousands of civilians, so dont act like you have any right to control the world order, you need a lot more catching up to do if you ever gonna challange western world, for once, plain barbarism, thats what your ex-leaders did, now be incharge as a member of a newer generation and be civilised.


Im sure the Russians would disregard this as nonesense.

Rostov
09-04-2008, 09:45 PM
One word: Armenia.


Codaza where did you get a photo of an African wearing a Caucasian Dzhigit costume?