Turkish Coast Guard boat smuggling illegal immigrants into Greek territory!

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

"A new "Midnight Express"
Shocking new pictures of a Turkish Coast Guard (Turk Sahil Guvenlik) boat smuggling illegal immigrants into Greek territory ,were revealed yesterday by the daily "Ethnos".The incident took place in August 19 in the vicinity of Cape Korakas located at the island of Lesvos, one of the easternmost Greek islands and raises serious questions on the role of the neighbouring country in the huge illegal immigration problem the Greek authorities are facing .

A Greek Coastguard vessel on patrol originally spotted the Turkish boat in the vicinity of Cape Korakas well inside Greek waters ,carrying an unknown number of illegal immigrants .Footage published by "Ethnos" shows a man ( a member of the crew as it seems) throwing life jackets overboard for the soon to be castaways . The Greek CG crews are often called upon to rescue large numbers of desperate illegal immigrants that are thrown overboard by the modern day slave traders at the first sight of an uproaching patrol boat . The short and costly (several thousand dollar) trip from the nearby coast does not always end with a hot cup of tea and a blanket in a Greek acceptance center as many unfortunate drown every year ,including children
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IHr-jLQd3rI/SL6DdLZ7u3I/AAAAAAAAAFM/GKlIecH50Ow/s400/assets_LARGE_t_420_1584848_type11491.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IHr-jLQd3rI/SL6DNQ0vIqI/AAAAAAAAAE8/ALM6qh6CCCQ/s400/assets_LARGE_t_420_1584846_type11491.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IHr-jLQd3rI/SL7kUJKTpaI/AAAAAAAAAFk/-eOLXKIRiX0/s400/assets_LARGE_t_420_1584845_type11491.jpg
The GC vessel intercepted the TGC boat ( a type Kaan 15 patrol boat) which started to perform evasive manuvuers and failed to respond to the continuing radio calls by the Greek patrol boat .The pursuit that followed lasted 15 minutes and ended with the Turkish intruder returning to Turkish territorial waters
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IHr-jLQd3rI/SL6DWokwOvI/AAAAAAAAAFE/eOKEz52PYHY/s400/assets_LARGE_t_420_1584847_type11491.jpg
The continuing waves of illegal immigrants have costrained the Greek Government to commence
a costly program for the construction of new acceptance facilities in the eastern borders of the country as the already existing infrastructure has proven inadeguate .It should be noted that the "Papandreou-Cem agreement" on the re-acceptance of illegal immigrants was never implemented by the Turkish side ,that refuses to cooperate . In a common effort to safeguard EU eastern sea borders and deal with a problem affecting the Union as a whole ,common patrols with other EU member vessels (Italy) have been established in the areas of Lesvos and Samos .According to government officials last year alone a total of 112.000 illegal immigrants tried to enter the country ,the large majority of which originated from the nearby coast of Asia Minor.

The Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyanis issued a formal protest regarding the incident ,without any Turkish response so far
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IHr-jLQd3rI/SL6ECajBDOI/AAAAAAAAAFU/tYG1sG9NMZc/s400/_1314919_ship300.jpg
Older footage of a TCG Kaan 15 class boat performing its...daytime duties


source :
http://enkripto.blogspot.com/2008/09/new-midnight-express.html
http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11424&subid=2&tag=8333&pubid=1532537
http://www.aegeantimes.gr/article.asp?id=26566&type=12
http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=11378&subid=2&tag=8470&pubid=1532727

[deli_dumrul]

Cheap greek propaganda... I bet your coast guard would have preferred filming us dumping them... but couldn't... until then no discussion.

This is the reality:

http://video.ntvmsnbc.com/videos/20080610_kacakgocmenler.wmv

And this is from 2004

http://video.ntvmsnbc.com/videos/yunanistanMulteci(2).wmv

[GREEK71AIRBORNE]

I will make no comment! The pictures talk by them selfs! Let's keep the discusion polite please

[domokun]

ROLFMAO!!!

I think it says 18 aug 2008 21:55 (approx) in pictures, but not sure until high-res ones get here.

I almost fell from my chair while laughing.

Those thermal images, while those are nice... but where do they drop off those illegal immigrants.

BTW. I haven't watched videos...yet.

[deli_dumrul]

I will make no comment! The pictures talk by them selfs! Let's keep the discusion polite please

You can't make any comments... If, as you say, my coast guards duty were dumping illegal immigrants in your waters, I am sure your coast guard would have snapshosts of those actions. You don't.

And I am pretty sure your coast guard could afford to wait a couple of seconds to let us dump a couple of those poor buggers in the water in front of the camera. They didn't.

Until then, no propaganda please... Was this polite enough?

[MG 3]

Greeks wake up! They were picking up spec ops coming back from Greece.p-)

[4X4Driver]

It sure sounds like a propaganda (if it isn't a flamebait). I think they're trying to cover own actions that creats too much pressure from the EU.



Brussels - The Greek coast guard is guilty of systematically abusing illegal migrants, beating them and even staging mock executions, two leading non-governmental organizations (NGOs) claimed on Monday. "The Greek coast guard systematically maltreats newly arrived refugees. It tries to block their boats and force them out of Greek territorial waters," pro-migrant pressure groups Pro Asyl of Germany and the Greek Group of Lawyers for the Rights of Refugees and Migrants said in a joint statement.

"In one reported case on the island of Chios, the degree of maltreatment amounted to torture (serious beating, mock execution, electric shocks, pushing a refugee's head into a bucket full of water)," the statement added.

In the summer of 2007 the groups sent two fact-finding missions to Greece, visiting detention camps and interviewing detained migrants across the Aegean Sea, which now forms the EU's outer border.

Their research revealed "systematic human-rights abuses" by the Greek coast guard, with migrants forced back out to sea, dumped on deserted islands, summarily deported or interned in "degrading and inhuman" conditions, the statement said.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/132600.html




Subject: /EU-Justice/Migration/Greece/

Greek coast guard "systematically maltreats" migrants - report

Brussels (dpa) - The Greek coast guard is guilty of systematically abusing illegal migrants, beating them and even staging mock executions, two leading non-governmental organizations (NGOs) claimed on Monday.

"The Greek coast guard systematically maltreats newly arrived refugees. It tries to block their boats and force them out of Greek territorial waters," pro-migrant pressure groups Pro Asyl of Germany and the Greek Group of Lawyers for the Rights of Refugees and Migrants said in a joint statement.

"In one reported case on the island of Chios, the degree of maltreatment amounted to torture (serious beating, mock execution, electric shocks, pushing a refugee's head into a bucket full of water)," the statement added.

In the summer of 2007 the groups sent two fact-finding missions to Greece, visiting detention camps and interviewing detained migrants across the Aegean Sea, which now forms the EU's outer border.

Their research revealed "systematic human-rights abuses" by the Greek coast guard, with migrants forced back out to sea, dumped on deserted islands, summarily deported or interned in "degrading and inhuman" conditions, the statement said.

http://coast-guard-news.newslib.com/story/174-3250924/

..and my sources are not Greek ;)

[Amateur]

Umm... the question of how Greece treats immigrants once they arrive in Greece has nothing to do with the question at hand, which is whether Turkey is an accomplice to illegal immigrants smuggling to Greece and the EU. Immigrants' human rights should of course be respected, but when you 're dealing with thousands arriving on islands with a population of a few hundred people each, you can't expect conditions to be excellent. And I really wouldn't go into human rights issues if I were you... Turkey is a prominent feature in all Amnesty International reports...
Now let's get back on topic: does the Turkish Coast Guard dump illegal immigrants in Greek territorial waters? Let's see:


You can't make any comments... If, as you say, my coast guards duty were dumping illegal immigrants in your waters, I am sure your coast guard would have snapshosts of those actions. You don't.
And I am pretty sure your coast guard could afford to wait a couple of seconds to let us dump a couple of those poor buggers in the water in front of the camera. They didn't.
Until then, no propaganda please... Was this polite enough?
Right... :roll: As if it's so easy to film the perpetrator in the beginning of his act, when you have caught him half way through the act...
Come on... what we see here is definitely
(a) a turkish coast guard vessel
(b) positioned within Greek territorial waters at a specific time and place
(c) carrying about 10 people seated on its floor, which means they are neither crew nor any turksih passengers
(d) dumping life jackets to the sea while running away to Turkey
Now what other logical explanation is there, except that they were busy dumping illegal immigrants in Greek territorial waters at night, when they were intercepted by the Greek Coast Guard? You can't say they were rescuing them, because in that case they wouldn't need to run away...

To put things in perspective, I just want to add that there are thousands of illegal immigrants crossing from Turkey to Greece every year, in order to reach the EU (numbers are available if somebody wishes to challenge this claim). It's just impossible that an enterprise of this scale and magnitude is happening without the complicity of Turkish authorities. The issue has caused some serious concern among european countries, and the Hellenic Coast Guard is now being assisted by vessels of the Italian Coast Guard positioned in Greek islands close to Turkey. Since Italy itself is a country facing illegal immigration by sea, this diversion of forces to the Greek islands of the Eastern Aegean should give a hint as to how serious the situation has become for the EU. Turkey should stop this policy of promoting illegal immigration to the EU; otherwise the already thin chances of it becoming a member will grow thinner yet.

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5097/50450399cc8.jpg

Italian coast guard vessels in the Greek islands of Mitilini and Samos, close to Turkey

[deli_dumrul]

Now what other logical explanation is there, except that they were busy dumping illegal immigrants in Greek territorial waters at night, when they were intercepted by the Greek Coast Guard? You can't say they were rescuing them, because in that case they wouldn't need to run away...


No the logical thing is to give the life jacket to the person and then give the boot over the edge. It is the Turkish coast guard you are talking about here, not the maltreating Greeks...



Turkey should stop this policy of promoting illegal immigration to the EU; otherwise the already thin chances of it becoming a member will grow thinner yet.

roflHow about a big f*** off to EU?

This is what these immigrants are facing in Greece... Yes, the country that tells us how civilized they are and then b*tches about the barbarian Turk. At least we have the decency not to point fingers.

Warning, some disturbing (no gore, nothing graphic, just not appropriate) images...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw9SN9EttaQ

$30,000 per capita income; mentality Zimbabwe...

[4X4Driver]

Umm... the question of how Greece treats immigrants once they arrive in Greece has nothing to do with the question at hand, which is whether Turkey is an accomplice to illegal immigrants smuggling to Greece and the EU. Immigrants' human rights should of course be respected, but when you 're dealing with tens of thousands arriving on islands with a population of a few hundred, you can't expect conditions to be excellent. And I really wouldn't go into human rights issues if I were you... Turkey is a prominent feature in all Amnesty International reports...
Now let's get back on topic: does the Turkish Coast Guard dump illegal immigrants in Greek territorial waters? Let's see:


Right... :roll: As if it's so easy to film the perpetrator in the beginning of his act, when you have caught him half way through the act...
Come on... what we see here is definitely
(a) a turkish coast guard vessel
(b) positioned within Greek territorial waters at a specific time and place
(c) carrying about 10 people seated on its floor, which means they are neither crew nor any turksih passengers
(d) dumping life jackets to the sea while running away to Turkey
Now what other logical explanation is there, except that they were busy dumping illegal immigrants in Greek territorial waters at night, when they were intercepted by the Greek Coast Guard? You can't say they were rescuing them, because in that case they wouldn't need to run away...

To put things in perspective, I just want to add that there are thousands of illegal immigrants crossing from Turkey to Greece every year, in order to reach the EU (numbers are available if somebody wishes to challenge this claim). It's just impossible that an enterprise of this scale and magnitude is happening without the complicity of Turkish authorities. The issue has caused some serious concern among european countries, and the Hellenic Coast Guard is now being assisted by vessels of the Italian Coast Guard positioned in Greek islands close to Turkey. Since Italy itself is a country facing illegal immigration by sea, this diversion of forces to the Greek islands of the Eastern Aegean should give a hint as to how serious the situation has become for the EU. Turkey should stop this policy of promoting illegal immigration to the EU; otherwise the already thin chances of it becoming a member will grow thinner yet.

Yeah..bla bla bla...excuses, excuses..if they're good enough for the Greeks, they should be for us too :roll: You know, I've always wondered if you guys can really be so ignorant of what your officials/authorities actually are up to when accusing Turks with these kind of things? (inlc. human rights abuses) Because..it just don't make any sense to post things like this when you can be countered with the documents of far worse actions of yourselves. What makes it worse is that, you guys are a "civilized" member of the EU and we're just "barbarians" ;)

[Vorian]

To people accusing of propaganda: You accused us of exactly the same about a year ago. About who's telling the truth......well nobody knows, right?

[4X4Driver]

To people accusing of propaganda: You accused us of exactly the same about a year ago. About who's telling the truth......well nobody knows, right?

My sources are legit sources...I'd assume?.

[Amateur]

This is what these immigrants are facing in Greece... Yes, the country that tells us how civilized they are and then b*tches about the barbarian Turk. At least we have the decency not to point fingers. Warning, some disturbing (no gore, nothing graphic, just not appropriate) images...
WTF has this vid got to do with the issue at hand? First of all it is obvious that the people maltreated are not some immigrants just fished from the sea, but petty criminals arrested and questioned in a police station in Athens. Second, for the (lamentable no doubt) abuse shown in this video, the two policemen were dishonourably discharged from the Greek Police, while their turkish counterparts who regularly perform torture on their victims largely stay unpunished (see here (http://www.amnestyusa.org/annualreport.php?id=ar&yr=2007&c=TUR) for a quick reference both on torture and on impunity). Which means that Greece as a state condones such acts, while Turkey as a state sponsors them.
Remember the Turkish police officials celebrating Ogun Samast, murderer of the outspoken turkish-armenian journalist Hrant Dink, shortly after his arrest? Let me remind you...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6323887.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6323887.stm)
http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/turkey-reveal-full-circumstances-surrounding-hrant-dink039s-murder-20080

http://assets.in.gr/dGenesis/assets/Content5/Photo/775737_b.jpg

And please don't make me post any more links from Amnesty International on Turkey. You won't like it at all...

Now let's get back on topic (again, our topic: Turkey officially smuggling illegal immigrants to the EU)


No the logical thing is to give the life jacket to the person and then give the boot over the edge.

Don't twist this around: the life jacket is being thrown for immigrants already in the water, who are left there for Greeks to pick them up. What other reason is there for a vessel that's running away, for throwing life jackets into the sea? This is clear proof that the turkish vessel had already dumped them in Greek waters, was surprised by the Greek vessel in the middle of the act, and is running away with the rest of the illegal immigrants. They' re throwing life jackets for the ones already in the sea; there's no way around that, because there's no other logical explanation other than that.



roflHow about a big f*** off to EU?

Well if you don't want to join the EU, that's absolutely fine with me. But there 's more to it: how about Turkey stopping to fill EU with illegal immigrants? :bash:

[domokun]

Hey fellas, cool down a little. There is no need for insults we can have good discussion of subject in civil manner.

[4X4Driver]

Remember the Turkish police officials celebrating Ogun Samast, murderer of the outspoken turkish-armenian journalist Hrant Dink, shortly after his arrest? Let me remind you...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6323887.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6323887.stm)

http://assets.in.gr/dGenesis/assets/Content5/Photo/775737_b.jpg



A lunatic murderous individual..and officers who posed with him already on trial...good try though ;)


And please don't make me post any more links from Amnesty International on Turkey. You won't like it at all...

I'll tell you what mate..you post what you got on us "barbarians" (that's fighting actively against pkk terror..which we're aware you don't agree with this description) and I'll post what I have on the "civilized" peaceful and prosperous EU member Greece...deal?


Well if you don't want to join the EU, that's absolutely fine with me. But there 's more to it: how about Turkey stopping to fill EU with illegal immigrants? :bash:

I don't think we have such obligations if we don't wantto join the EU ;)


Now let's get back on topic (again, our topic: Turkey officially smuggling illegal immigrants to the EU)

You are the first one to mention general HR issue in Turkey in your post above...now trying to back up?

[Amateur]

You are the first one to mention general HR issue in Turkey in your post above...now trying to back up?
No, I wasn't the one who started on human rights issues; just look at the first paragraph of my first post - I responded to a previous post by you and have no intention of continuing.


I'll tell you what mate..you post what you got on us "barbarians" (that's fighting actively against pkk terror..which we're aware you don't agree with this description) and I'll post what I have on the "civilized" peaceful and prosperous EU member Greece...deal?
No. I understand you have every interest to derail this topic, but you won't get your way p-). This topic is about Turkey smuggling illegal immigrants to the EU. You can start a new topic on human rights issues if you like, and I will gladly participate. That should really be a laugh: Turkey preaching others on human rights. Go ahead and do it.rofl



I don't think we have such obligations if we don't wantto join the EU ;)
Now that's really interesting: I knew an immigration wave of this magnitude could never have come without the permission of the Turkish state, but I have never (until now) heard an open declaration that Turkey has no obligation to counter illegal immigration to the EU... Do you also admit Turkey is actively promoting it? I surely didn't see any clear position on the issue by turkish members here, except "Greek lies" etc. Is that your opinion? That Turkey has the right to allow illegal immigrants to Greece, or even sponsor them?
And as for legal obligations, I don't know about EU and Turkey, but Greece and Turkey signed an agreement to stop illegal immigration in 2001, which also provides for an obligation of Turkey to take back illegal immigrants caught crossing turkish borders...



By DOUGLAS FRANTZ (NYT)
Published: November 9, 2001
In an attempt to improve ties and protect their borders, Turkey and Greece agreed that Greece will be able to return illegal immigrants to Turkey. The long-sought deal comes as Greece fears a new wave of illegal immigrants from the American bombing campaign in Afghanistan. Along with easing the immediate refugee problem, the agreement reached between the countries' foreign ministers in Athens marked a renewal of progress in repairing their relations. Douglas Frantz (NYT)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE2DF1738F93AA35752C1A9679C8B63


So yes, Turkey, is, in fact , under a legal obligation to counter illegal immigration to Greece and, as a result, into the EU. But we all know how Turkey feels about international law...

[chris450]

Modern day slave trading is a very profitable business..many Turks are arrested every year and all kinds of boats are confiscated by the Greek coast guard*..its more than obvious that in a business state officials are involved , the Turkish propaganda machine would invent all kinds of "reports", tailored "videos" showing absolutely nothing in order to put pressure on the Greek Gov and consequently the Greek coast guard...this is an oportunity the Turkish gov would not pass up , what a briliant way to :



destabilise the island economy (huge costs for new infrastructure)
make the Greek authorities fighting illegal immigration look bad by making ridiculous claims of greek GC dumping immigrants in Turkish waters! ,when last year alone 112.000 people tried to enter Greece (and consequently the EU) illegally FROM TURKISH SOIL
probe the Greek GC and Armed forces survaillance network and responce times
and also make BIG BUCKS in the process...


this is the first world wide example of a country sponsoring illegal immigration ,accusing the host nation of not letting the smugglers do their thing untouched

This is not only a Greek problem,most of the immigrants the Turks are unloading on our shores will end up in Milan ,Paris London and Berlin


* Lesvos island -Turkish slave trader ,under GC custody boat confiscated..the fees from this run alone would buy him 3 more boats...too bad he got busted
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1298/skafos1bd6.jpg

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/4285/skafos2ga7.jpg

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/1237/skafos3xu2.jpg


http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/86/skafos4ax0.jpg

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6465/skafos5dj4.jpg

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/1258/skafos7nr9.jpg

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/160/skafos6xl0.jpg
The Turk smuggler with GC personel

[4X4Driver]

No, I wasn't the one who started on human rights issues; just look at the first paragraph of my first post - I responded on a previous post and have no intention of continuing.

No..here is the first time mentioned in your post #8;


Umm... the question of how Greece treats immigrants once they arrive in Greece has nothing to do with the question at hand, which is whether Turkey is an accomplice to illegal immigrants smuggling to Greece and the EU. Immigrants' human rights should of course be respected, but when you 're dealing with thousands arriving on islands with a population of a few hundred people each, you can't expect conditions to be excellent. And I really wouldn't go into human rights issues if I were you... Turkey is a prominent feature in all Amnesty International reports...


No. I understand you have every interest to derail this topic, but you won't get your way p-). This topic is about Turkey smuggling illegal immigrants to the EU.

No...that case is closed when we debunked your propaganda with the pattern you guys have in this issue (see my post #7)


You can start a new topic on human rights issues if you like, and I will gladly participate. That should really be a laugh: Turkey preaching others on human rights. Go ahead and do it.rofl

Ok..let's start with the Macedonian issue (since I'm a Turk.. I thought you'd accuse me being biased if I started with the Turkish minority rights issues...oobs...I forgot..there are no such minority in your country)

Let's just keep in mind that this happenes in a EU member coutry where there is no killings happening due to this ethnic issues...yet. One could only imagine what would happen if these minorities started to terrorize you for your actions.



The Macedonians of Greece (http://hrw.org/research/aboutpub.htm#outofprint)
Although ethnic Macedonians in northern Greece make up a large minority with their own language and culture, their internationally-recognized human rights and even their existence are vigorously denied by the Greek government. Free expression is restricted; several Macedonians have been prosecuted and convicted for the peaceful expression of their views. Moreover, ethnic Macedonians are discriminated against by the government's failure to permit the teaching of the Macedonian language. And ethnic Macedonians, particularly rights activists, are harassed by the government — followed and threatened by security forces — and subjected to economic and social pressures resulting from this harassment.

http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=europe&c=greece&document_limit=20,20



Now that's really interesting: so you think that Turkey has no obligation to stop illegal immigratioin to the EU? Do you also admit Turkey is promoting it?

Nothing interesting about it... if we're not a member, we're not obliged by its rules..simple....and what a way to interepret it..."promoting it" :roll:

Now..let's see what you got on us "barbarians"

[chris450]

nice attempt to derail the thread :)

[4X4Driver]

Modern day slave trading is a very profitable business..many Turks are arrested every year and all kinds of boats are confiscated by the Greek coast guard*..its more than obvious that in a business state officials are involved , the Turkish propaganda machine would invent all kinds of "reports", tailored "videos" showing absolutely nothing in order to put pressure on the Greek Gov and consequently the Greek coast guard...



Brussels - The Greek coast guard is guilty of systematically abusing illegal migrants, beating them and even staging mock executions, two leading non-governmental organizations (NGOs) claimed on Monday. "The Greek coast guard systematically maltreats newly arrived refugees. It tries to block their boats and force them out of Greek territorial waters," pro-migrant pressure groups Pro Asyl of Germany and the Greek Group of Lawyers for the Rights of Refugees and Migrants said in a joint statement.

"In one reported case on the island of Chios, the degree of maltreatment amounted to torture (serious beating, mock execution, electric shocks, pushing a refugee's head into a bucket full of water)," the statement added.

In the summer of 2007 the groups sent two fact-finding missions to Greece, visiting detention camps and interviewing detained migrants across the Aegean Sea, which now forms the EU's outer border.

Their research revealed "systematic human-rights abuses" by the Greek coast guard, with migrants forced back out to sea, dumped on deserted islands, summarily deported or interned in "degrading and inhuman" conditions, the statement said.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/132600.html




Subject: /EU-Justice/Migration/Greece/

Greek coast guard "systematically maltreats" migrants - report

Brussels (dpa) - The Greek coast guard is guilty of systematically abusing illegal migrants, beating them and even staging mock executions, two leading non-governmental organizations (NGOs) claimed on Monday.

"The Greek coast guard systematically maltreats newly arrived refugees. It tries to block their boats and force them out of Greek territorial waters," pro-migrant pressure groups Pro Asyl of Germany and the Greek Group of Lawyers for the Rights of Refugees and Migrants said in a joint statement.

"In one reported case on the island of Chios, the degree of maltreatment amounted to torture (serious beating, mock execution, electric shocks, pushing a refugee's head into a bucket full of water)," the statement added.

In the summer of 2007 the groups sent two fact-finding missions to Greece, visiting detention camps and interviewing detained migrants across the Aegean Sea, which now forms the EU's outer border.

Their research revealed "systematic human-rights abuses" by the Greek coast guard, with migrants forced back out to sea, dumped on deserted islands, summarily deported or interned in "degrading and inhuman" conditions, the statement said.

http://coast-guard-news.newslib.com/story/174-3250924/

[4X4Driver]

nice attempt to derail the thread :)

Check the previous page..that has already been done by your countryman. :roll:



So yes, Turkey, is, in fact , under a legal obligation to counter illegal immigration to Greece and, as a result, into the EU. But we all know how Turkey feels about international law...

Yeah...such agreements with Greece kind of confusing due to the double standarts applied by the Greek officials.


The Greek Government said on Friday it would guarantee political asylum and protection for two female bodyguards of the Kurdish rebel leader, Abdullah Ocalan.*


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/287232.stm


*Pkk terror org. leader.

[Amateur]

No..here is the first time mentioned in your post #8;
Right; and now look at your post #7: didn't you start with human rights issues? Case closed.

Ok..let's start with the Macedonian issue
Only this much on the macedonian issue: Because Greece is a free democratic country, a political party promoting the concept and rights of what they describe as the "macedonian minority in Greece", the Rainbow (Ουράνιο Τόξο) - was founded in September 1998, and ran in the 2004 elections. It received 2,955 votes in the whole region of Greek Macedonia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_language_%28Greece%29 That should be about 0,1% rofl Those are the facts, and they were measured in free general elections. The rest is fairytales.
__________________________________________________________________________

And now that we dealt with your attempts to derail us, let's get back on topic: As I said earlier, this topic is about Turkey smuggling illegal immigrants to the EU.

You said


Originally Posted by 4X4Driver http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3522818#post3522818)
I don't think we have such obligations if we don't wantto join the EU ;-)

And I said

Now that's really interesting: I knew an immigration wave of this magnitude could never have come without the permission of the Turkish state, but I have never (until now) heard an open declaration that Turkey has no obligation to counter illegal immigration to the EU... Do you also admit Turkey is actively promoting it? I surely didn't see any clear position on the issue by turkish members here, except "Greek lies" etc. Is that your opinion? That Turkey has the right to allow illegal immigrants to Greece, or even sponsor them?
And as for legal obligations, I don't know about EU and Turkey, but Greece and Turkey signed an agreement to stop illegal immigration in 2001, which also provides for an obligation of Turkey to take back illegal immigrants caught crossing turkish borders...


Quote:
By DOUGLAS FRANTZ (NYT)
Published: November 9, 2001
In an attempt to improve ties and protect their borders, Turkey and Greece agreed that Greece will be able to return illegal immigrants to Turkey. The long-sought deal comes as Greece fears a new wave of illegal immigrants from the American bombing campaign in Afghanistan. Along with easing the immediate refugee problem, the agreement reached between the countries' foreign ministers in Athens marked a renewal of progress in repairing their relations. Douglas Frantz (NYT)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...52C1A9679C8B63 (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE2DF1738F93AA35752C1A9679C8B63)
So yes, Turkey, is, in fact , under a legal obligation to counter illegal immigration to Greece and, as a result, into the EU. But we all know how Turkey feels about international law...

And your reply is this?


Nothing interesting about it... if we're not a member, we're not obliged by its rules..simple....and what a way to interepret it..."promoting it" :roll:
So because Turkey is not an EU member, Turkey can go ahead and fill the EU with illegal immigrants, refusing cooperation on their control and even actively promoting them? That is your position? Nice going mate... you can stop digging now, you 're at the bottom.



Yeah...such agreements with Greece kind of confusing due to the double standarts applied by the Greek officials.
The Greek Government said on Friday it would guarantee political asylum and protection for two female bodyguards of the Kurdish rebel leader, Abdullah Ocalan.*


Another attempt to derail the thread: this has nothing to do with illegal immigration, this is an issue of political asylum. Not only Greece but all european countries have regulations about granting asylum to refugees, if they face a threat of death or torture in case they are deported (which was clearly the case for the two women mentioned). Now, what exactly does this have to do with the thousands of illegal immigrants from all over the East, coming by boat from Turkey to Greece? Are they all being threatened with torture and death? No. Case closed.

Again, the main question: do you believe that Turkey has an obligation to stop illegal immigration through its territory, to Greece and the EU? If no, why? If yes, do you think Turkey is currently fulfilling this obligation?

[4X4Driver]

Right; and now look at your post #7: didn't you start with human rights issues? Case closed.

Nope...my post #7 (also #20) is about the actions of Greek coast Guard against the immigrants coming by sea.


the Rainbow (Ουράνιο Τόξο) - was founded in September 1998, and ran in the 2004 elections. It received 2,955 votes in the whole region of Greek Macedonia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_language_%28Greece%29 That should be about 0,1% rofl Those are the facts, and they were measured in free general elections. The rest is fairytales.

...and pkk's political wing kurdish party DTP received just above 1mil. votes in the most recent election in the kurdish areas...does that mean we have only just above 1mil. kurds in Turkey?? rofl


And now that we dealt with your attempts to derail us, let's get back on topic: As I said earlier, this topic is about Turkey smuggling illegal immigrants to the EU.

I've already proved your derailing of the thread by mentioning the general HR isue in Turkey mate...;)


You said

And I said

And your reply is this?

So because Turkey is not an EU member, Turkey can go ahead and fill the EU with illegal immigrants, refusing cooperation on their control and even actively promoting them? That is your position? Nice going mate... you can stop digging now, you 're at the bottom.

I said your policies are confusing ( see the Ocalan issue above)

[4X4Driver]

Another attempt to derail the thread:

Nope..it still is the "treatment of the immigrations" issue and showing how you bend the rules of it when it suits you. Maltreating the boat refrugees in need,but granting "political asylum" to the wanted terror org. leader that has been recognized as such by the int'l community...incl. EU



Again, the main question: do you believe that Turkey has an obligation to stop illegal immigration through its territory, to Greece and the EU? If no, why? If yes, do you think Turkey is currently fulfilling this obligation?

No...but I know it does its best even though not a member of the EU. They're obliged to prevent it as much as any non EU country...

[chris450]

No...but I know it does its best even though not a member of the EU. They're obliged to prevent it as much as any non EU country...

and what a fine job they're doing! they're practically leaving the private smugglers out of a lob

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IHr-jLQd3rI/SL6DdLZ7u3I/AAAAAAAAAFM/GKlIecH50Ow/s400/assets_LARGE_t_420_1584848_type11491.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IHr-jLQd3rI/SL7kUJKTpaI/AAAAAAAAAFk/-eOLXKIRiX0/s400/assets_LARGE_t_420_1584845_type11491.jpg

[Amateur]

Now we 're getting somewhere...


Again, the main question: do you believe that Turkey has an obligation to stop illegal immigration through its territory, to Greece and the EU? If no, why? If yes, do you think Turkey is currently fulfilling this obligation?



No...but I know it does its best even though not a member of the EU. They're obliged to prevent it as much as any non EU country...

OK... that's of course a volte-face compared to what you said earlier, but let's stick to it:
Since you do recognize a turkish obligation to prevent illegal immigration, isn't it true that those pictures show a breach of that obligation?

[4X4Driver]

Now we 're getting somewhere...



OK... that's of course a volte-face compared to what you said earlier, but let's stick to it:
Since you do recognize a turkish obligation to prevent illegal immigration,

No obligations to Greece..it's just a standart border security work...whether you appreciate it or not, is another issue (reasons posted)



isn't it true that those pictures show a breach of that obligation?

Nope..just like the Finn poster said...no such thing seen in the pics...just allegations.

[chris450]

No obligations to Greece..it's just a standart border security work...whether you appreciate it or not, is another issue (reasons posted).

i think you are unaware of the 4 "Papandreou-Cem protocols" ,signed in November 2001 ,one of which -the re-acceptance protocol- obliges Turkey to accept the illegal immigrants that reach Greece from Turkish territory and to boost efforts to fight illegal immigration

not surprisingly Turkey refuses to honour its signature ,again

http://assets.in.gr/dGenesis/assets/Content5/Photo/340330_b.jpg
The two FM after signing the agreements

[4X4Driver]

i think you are unaware of the 4 "Papandreou-Cem protocols" ,signed in November 2001 ,one of which -the re-acceptance protocol- obliges Turkey to accept the illegal immigrants that reach Greece from Turkish territory

not surprisingly Turkey refuses to honour its signature ,again


You're right...my bad...sorry. We do have a protocol between our countries..and it goes both ways. (which includes terrorists and their leaders too btw)

That protocol is mentioned here in this thread....with the details.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92023&highlight=Greek+coastguard

[chris450]

You're right...my bad...sorry. We do have a protocol between our countries (which includes terrorists and their leaders too btw)

That protocol is mentioned here in this thread....with the details.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92023&highlight=Greek+coastguard

yes i read that thread and the details (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1941583&postcount=5) thank you :)

as you see i mentioned it myself here (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3522842&postcount=17)


Modern day slave trading is a very profitable business..many Turks are arrested every year and all kinds of boats are confiscated by the Greek coast guard*..its more than obvious that in a business state officials are involved , the Turkish propaganda machine would invent all kinds of "reports", tailored "videos" showing absolutely nothing in order to put pressure on the Greek Gov and consequently the Greek coast guard...

[4X4Driver]

yes i read that thread and the details (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1941583&postcount=5) thank you :)

as you see i mentioned it myself here (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3522842&postcount=17)

Like I said mate...we did have a protocol that puts both sides under responsibilities...that's includes terrorism.

Sorry I wasn't aware of such protocol and I did find it here (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92023&highlight=Greek+coastguard)

Thanks for the heads up though... ;)

Cheers.