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Bartoha
09-06-2008, 11:49 AM
These days we have 325 anniversary of the battle of Vienna 1683, when Europe was saved from Ottoman invaders.

Commemoration of this battle will take place 12-14 September in Krakow (Poland), former capital of Poland, which contributed mostly to that victory by sending 30 000 soldiers (including couple thousands of hussars) and commanding the coalition forces (Polish king Jan III Sobieski was the commander of coalition forces).

Little more about the battle, taken from www.wien-vienna.com (http://www.wien-vienna.com/) websites:

Battle of Vienna 1683

The Battle of Vienna (German: Schlacht am Kahlenberg, Polish: Bitwa pod Wiedniem or Odsiecz Wiedeńska, Turkish: İkinci Viyana Kuşatması), Ukrainian: Віденська відсіч (Viděns'ka Vidsič) took place on September 12, 1683 after Vienna had been besieged by the Ottoman Empire for two months. The battle broke the advance of the Ottoman Empire into Europe, and marked the political hegemony of the Habsburg dynasty in central Europe.

The large-scale battle was won by Polish-Austrian-German forces led by King of Poland John III Sobieski against the Ottoman Empire army commanded by Grand Vizier Merzifonlu Kara Mustafa Pasha.


http://history.wisc.edu/sommerville/351/351images/winged.jpg
Polish hussar
(More about Polish husaria: http://www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/comp/comp06.htm)


The siege itself began on 14 July 1683, by the Ottoman Empire army of approximately 138,000 men (although a large number of these played no part in the battle, as only 50,000 were experienced soldiers (Turks), and the rest less-motivated supporting troops. The decisive battle took place on 12 September, after the united relief army of 70,000 men had arrived, pitted against the Ottoman army.

King John III Sobieski of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth had been made Commander in Chief of:

- his own 30,000-man Polish forces (Lithuanians did not take part in the battle),
- 18,500 Austrian troops led by Charles V, Duke of Lorraine,
- 19,000 Franconian, Swabian and Bavarian troops led by Prince Georg Friedrich of Waldeck,
- 9,000 Saxon troops led by John George III, Elector of Saxony.

The battle marked the turning point in the 300-year struggle between the forces of the Central European kingdoms and the Ottoman Empire. Over the sixteen years following the battle, the Habsburgs of Austria gradually occupied and dominated southern Hungary and Transylvania, which had been largely cleared of the Turkish forces.


Battle of Vienna on September 12, 1683 (Painting: F. Greffels)
http://www.wien-vienna.at/images/tuerken1.jpg


Prelude

The capture of the city of Vienna had long been a strategic aspiration of the Ottoman Empire, due to its inter-locking control over Danubean (Black Sea-to-Western Europe) southern Europe, and the overland (Eastern Mediterranean-to-Germany) trade routes. During the years preceding the second siege (the first one was in 1529), under the auspices of grand viziers from the influential Köprülü family, the Ottoman Empire undertook extensive logistical preparations this time, including the repair and establishment of roads and bridges leading into Austria and logistical centers, as well as the forwarding of ammunition, cannon and other resources from all over the Empire to these logistical centers and into the Balkans.

On the political front, the Ottoman Empire had been providing military assistance to the Hungarians and to non-Catholic minorities in Habsburg-occupied portions of Hungary. There, in the years preceding the siege, widespread unrest had become open rebellion upon Leopold I's pursuit of Counter-Reformation principles and his desire to crush Protestantism. In 1681, Protestants and other anti-Habsburg forces, led by Imre Thököly, were reinforced with a significant force from the Ottomans, who recognized Imre as King of "Upper Hungary" (eastern Slovakia and parts of northeastern present-day Hungary, which he had earlier taken by force of arms from the Habsburgs). This support went so far as explicitly promising the "Kingdom of Vienna" to the Hungarians if it fell into Ottoman hands.

Yet, before the siege, a state of peace had existed for twenty years between the Habsburgs and the Ottoman Empire, as a result of the Peace of Vasvár.

In 1681 and 1682, clashes between the forces of Imre Thököly and the Habsburgs' military frontier (which was then northern Hungary) forces intensified, and the incursions of Habsburg forces into Central Hungary provided the crucial argument of Grand Vizier Kara Mustafa Pasha in convincing the Sultan, Mehmet IV and his Divan, to allow the movement of the Ottoman Army. Mehmet IV authorized Kara Mustafa Pasha to operate as far as Győr (Turkish: Yanıkkale, German: Raab) and Komarom (Turkish: Komaron, German: Komorn) castles, both in northwestern Hungary, and to besiege them. The Ottoman Army was mobilized on January 21, 1682, and war was declared on August 6, 1682.

The wording of this declaration left no room for doubt what would await in case of Turkish success. Mehmed IV. wrote to Leopold I verbatim, "Primarily we order You to await Us in Your residence city of Vienna so that We can decapitate You... (...) We will exterminate You and all Your followers... (...) Children and grown-ups will be exposed to the most atrocious tortures before put to an end in the most ignominious way imaginable..."

The forward march of Ottoman Army elements did not begin until April 1, 1683 from Edirne in Thracia. The logistics of the time meant that it would have been risky or impossible to launch an invasion in August or September 1682 (a three month campaign would have got the Turks to Vienna just as winter set in). However this 15 month gap between mobilisation and the launch of a full-scale invasion allowed ample time for the Habsburg forces to prepare their defense and set up alliances with other Central European rulers, and undoubtedly contributed to the failure of the campaign.

During the winter, the Habsburgs and Poland concluded a treaty in which Leopold would support Sobieski if the Turks attacked Kraków; in return, the Polish Army would come to the relief of Vienna, if attacked.

In the spring, the Ottoman army reached Belgrade by early May, then moved toward the city of Vienna. About 40,000 Tatar Forces arrived 40km east of Vienna on 7 July, twice as many as the Austrian forces in that area. After initial fights, Leopold retreated to Linz with 80,000 inhabitants of Vienna.

The King of Poland prepared a relief expedition to Vienna during the summer of 1683, honoring his obligations to the treaty. He went so far as to leave his own nation virtually undefended when departing from Kraków on 15 August. Sobieski covered this with a stern warning to Imre Thököly, the leader of Hungary, whom he threatened with destruction if he tried to take advantage of the situation — which Thököly did.


Kara Mustafa Pasha, Painting 1696
http://www.wien-vienna.at/images4/tuerkenbelagerung74.jpg

Ernst Rüdiger von Starhemberg, Painting 1683
http://www.wien-vienna.at/images4/tuerkenbelagerung73.jpg


Events during the siege

The main Turkish army finally invested Vienna on July 14. Graf Ernst Rüdiger von Starhemberg, leader of the remaining 11,000 troops and 5,000 citizens and volunteers, refused to capitulate.

The Viennese had demolished many of the houses around the city walls and cleared the debris, leaving an empty plain that would expose the Turks to defensive fire if they tried to rush the city. Kara Mustafa Pasha solved that problem by ordering his forces to dig long lines of trenches directly toward the city, to help protect them from the defenders as they advanced steadily toward the city.

As their 300 cannon were outdated and the fortifications of Vienna were up to date, the Turks had a more effective use for their gunpowder: undermining. Tunnels were dug under the massive city walls to blow them up with explosives, using sapping mines.

The Ottomans had essentially two options to take the city: the first, an all-out assault, was virtually guaranteed success since they outnumbered the defenders almost 20-1. The second was to lay siege to the city, and this was the option they chose.

This seems against military logic, but assaulting properly defended fortifications has always resulted in very heavy casualties for the attackers. A siege was a reasonable course of action to minimise casualties and capture the city intact, and in fact it nearly succeeded. What the Ottomans did not take into account however was that time was not on their side. Their lack of urgency at this point, combined with the delay in advancing their army after declaring war, eventually allowed a relief force to arrive. Historians have speculated that Kara Mustafa wanted to take the city intact for its riches, and declined an all-out attack in order to prevent the right of plunder which would accompany such an assault.

The Ottoman siege cut virtually every means of food supply into Vienna,[3] and the garrison and civilian volunteers suffered extreme casualties. Fatigue became such a problem that Graf Ernst Rüdiger von Starhemberg ordered any soldier found asleep on watch to be shot. Increasingly desperate, the forces holding Vienna were on their last legs when in August, Imperial forces under Charles V, Duke of Lorraine beat Imre Thököly of Hungary at Bisamberg, 5km northeast of Vienna.

On 6 September, the Poles crossed the Danube 30km north west of Vienna at Tulln, to unite with the Imperial forces and additional troops from Saxony, Bavaria, Baden, Franconia and Swabia who had answered the call for a Holy League that was supported by Pope Innocent XI. Only Louis XIV of France, Habsburg's rival, not only declined to help, but used the opportunity to attack cities in Alsace and other parts of southern Germany, as in the Thirty Years' War decades earlier.

During early September, the experienced 5000 Turkish sappers repeatedly blew up large portions of the walls, the Burg bastion, the Löbel bastion and the Burg ravelin in between, creating gaps of about 12m in width. The Austrians tried to counter by digging their own tunnels, to intercept the depositing of large amounts of gunpowder in subterranean caverns. The Turks finally managed to occupy the Burg ravelin and the Nieder wall in that area on 8 September. Anticipating a breach in the city walls, the remaining Austrians prepared to fight in Vienna itself.

Staging the battle

The relief army had to act quickly to save the city from the Turks and to prevent another long siege in case they would take it. Despite the international composition and the short time of only six days, an effective leadership structure was established, indisputedly centered on the King of Poland and his heavy cavalry. The motivation was high, as this war was not as usual for the interests of kings, but for Christian faith. And, unlike the crusades, the battleground was in the heart of Europe.

Kara Mustafa Pasha, on the other hand, was less effective, despite having months of time to organize his forces, ensure their motivation and loyalty, and prepare for the expected relief army attack. He had entrusted defence of the rear to the Khan of Crimea and his cavalry force, which numbered about 30,000.

There are serious questions as to how much the Tatar forces participated in the final battle at Vienna. Their Khan felt humiliated by repeated snubs by Kara Mustafa and reportedly refused to make a strike against the Polish relief force as it crossed the mountains, where the heavy cavalry would have been vulnerable to such an assault from the lighthorse Tatars. Nor were they the only component of the Ottoman army to openly defy Mustafa and to refuse assignments.

This left vital bridges undefended and allowed passage of the combined Habsburg-Polish army, which arrived to relieve the siege. Critics of this account say that it was Kara Mustafa Pasha, and not the Crimean Khan, who was held responsible for the failure of the siege. Also, the Ottomans could not rely on their wallachian and moldavian allies. These peoples had a significant hatred of the ottomans who were bleeding their countries dry of all their resources. In the years prior to the siege, the turks intervened many times to change the princes in these countries, so as to keep a tight grip on them. Knowing of the turkish plans, the princes of Moldavia and Wallachia try to warn the Habsburgs. Initially they tried to stand up to the ottomans and not join the campaign, but they were pressed-ganged into the joint strike force. There are a great deal of popular legends about the involvement and comittement of these principalities in the siege. Almost invariably, these legends describe the wallachian and moldavian forces loading their cannons with straw balls,so as to make no impact upon the walls of the besieged city.

The Holy League forces arrived on the "Kahlen Berg" (bare hill) above Vienna, signaling their arrival with bonfires. In the early morning hours of 12 September, before the battle, a mass was held for King Sobieski.

The battle

The battle started before all units were fully deployed. Early in the morning at 4:00, Turkish forces opened hostilities to interfere with the Holy League's troop deployment. A move forward was made by Charles, the Austrian army on the left, and the German forces in the center.

Mustafa Pasha launched a counter-attack, with most of his force, but holding back parts of the elite Janissary and Sipahi for the invasion of the city. The Turkish commanders had intended to take Vienna before Sobieski arrived, but time ran out. Their sappers had prepared another large and final detonation under the Löbelbastei, to provide access to the city. While the Turks hastily finished their work and sealed the tunnel to make the explosion more effective, the Austrian "moles" detected the cavern in the afternoon. One of them entered and defused the load just in time.

At that time, above the "subterranean battlefield", a large battle was going on, as the Polish infantry had launched a massive assault upon the Turkish right flank. Instead of focusing on the battle with the relief army, the Turks tried to force their way into the city, carrying their crescent flag.


Battle of Vienna 1683, Painting 1689
http://www.wien-vienna.at/images4/tuerkenbelagerung72.jpg


After 12 hours of fighting, Sobieski's Polish force held the high ground on the right. At about five o'clock in the afternoon, after watching the ongoing infantry battle from the hills for the whole day, four cavalry groups, one of them Austrian-German, and the other three Polish, totaling over 20,000 men, charged down the hills. The attack was led by the Polish king in front of a spearhead of 3000 heavily armed winged Polish lancer hussars. This charge broke the lines of the Ottomans, who were tired from the long fight on two sides. In the confusion, the cavalry headed straight for the Ottoman camps, while the remaining Vienna garrison sallied out of its defenses and joined in the assault.

The Ottoman army were tired and dispirited following the failure of both the sapping attempt and the brute force assault of the city, and the arrival of the cavalry turned the tide of battle against them, sending them into retreat to the south and east. In less than three hours after the cavalry attack, the Christian forces had won the battle and saved Vienna from capture.

After the battle, Sobieski paraphrased Julius Caesar's famous quote by saying "veni, vidi, Deus vicit" - "I came, I saw, God conquered"


King of Poland, Jan III Sobieski
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/images/soboieski.jpg

Aftermath

The Turks lost about 15,000 men in the fighting, compared to approximately 4,000 for the Habsburg-Polish forces. Though routed and in full retreat, the Turkish troops had found time to slaughter all their Austrian prisoners, with the exception of those few of nobility which they took with them for ransoming.

The loot that fell into the hands of the Holy League troops and the Viennese was as huge as their relief, as King Sobieski vividly described in a letter to his wife a few days after the battle: "Ours are treasures unheard of ... tents, sheep, cattle and no small number of camels ... it is victory as nobody ever knew of, the enemy now completely ruined, everything lost for them. They must run for their sheer lives ... Commander Starhemberg hugged and kissed me and called me his savior."

This emotional expression of gratitude did not distract Starhemberg from ordering the immediate repair of Vienna's severely damaged fortifications, guarding against a possible Turkish counterstrike. However, this proved unneccessary. The victory at Vienna set the stage for Prince Eugene of Savoy's reconquering of Hungary and (temporarily) some of the Balkan countries within the following years. Austria signed a peace treaty with the Ottoman Empire in 1697.

Long before that, the Turks had disposed of their defeated commander. On 25 December 1683, Kara Mustafa Pasha was executed in Belgrade (in the approved manner, by strangulation with a silk rope pulled by several men on each end) by order of the commander of the Janissaries.


____________________________________________
Bartosz, Poland
Group of Historical Fencing Milites Alraunae
http://www.milites-alraunae.prv.pl

Salman
09-06-2008, 12:42 PM
The Ottoman Empire was already in decline before this battle and they did siege Vienna, one time before 1683 when sultan "Suleiman the Magnicifent" was taking the balkans.

Maybe some turkish members here can shed some light on how the Ottoman armies were composed? Which people fought in these armies (besides turks).

Bartoha
09-06-2008, 12:51 PM
Basicly you are right, but if they would be in total decline what did they do under Vienna with more than 100 000 troops in 1683? And if they were weak why the Habsburg and Holy Pope delegates were asking on their knees Polish king for help?

Anyway - being a Pole I have some insights on that. Polish policy was wrong at that time. We did not have interest in saving Habsburgs etc. Our main opponent, rising and becoming more and more powerful, at that time was Russia. Going to war with Turkey was wasting our resources, money (Austria haven't paid for the Polish expedition in 1683 till today) and time. All of those factors and this Polish mistake, were used by Russia and Prussia soon..

PanzerMaster
09-06-2008, 02:41 PM
Thank God and the people at Vienna & Poitier, we are not under the Crescent now

Bartoha
09-06-2008, 02:48 PM
Mention about the crescent, a little off+topic addition :). A little footnote in early modern European culinary history.

The Battle of Vienna was responsible for the inventions of both the croissant and the pretzel. The bakers of Vienna, trying to hedge their bets as to whether the Muslims or the Christians would win the battle, baked some of their bread to the shape of an Islamic crescent moon (the croissant) and they also baked some of their bread to the shape of Christian praying hands (the pretzel).

The attitude of bakers of Vienna in 1683 reminds me a little the present policy of European states ...

PanzerMaster
09-06-2008, 02:51 PM
Mention about the crescent, a little off+topic addition :). A little footnote in early modern European culinary history.

The Battle of Vienna was responsible for the inventions of both the croissant and the pretzel. The bakers of Vienna, trying to hedge their bets as to whether the Muslims or the Christians would win the battle, baked some of their bread to the shape of an Islamic crescent moon (the croissant) and they also baked some of their bread to the shape of Christian praying hands (the pretzel).

The attitude of bakers of Vienna in 1683 reminds me a little the present policy of European states ...

I did know about the croissant (but not the pretzel)

ALSO:

The "Salame", or Salami in English... the typical food based on pork meat was named to make fool of the world "Salam" (Peace) of the muslim, as a last insult against them.

Bartoha
09-06-2008, 02:56 PM
Salami is also used in Poland. But here we do not have such problems with minorities like Western countries, and we hope we will not follow EU policy in that matter ...

Augustus08
09-06-2008, 03:12 PM
Salami is also used in Poland. But here we do not have such problems with minorities like Western countries, and we hope we will not follow EU policy in that matter ...

Wise move. Very, very wise, in fact.

PanzerMaster
09-06-2008, 03:29 PM
Salami is also used in Poland. But here we do not have such problems with minorities like Western countries, and we hope we will not follow EU policy in that matter ...

Good luck, I (nearly) live in the middle of north africans

Zombie Squad
09-06-2008, 03:37 PM
I did know about the croissant (but not the pretzel)

ALSO:

The "Salame", or Salami in English... the typical food based on pork meat was named to make fool of the world "Salam" (Peace) of the muslim, as a last insult against them.

How original. The cartoons didn't last long, but this baby has been around for 900 years. Ha.

Salman
09-06-2008, 05:49 PM
Basicly you are right, but if they would be in total decline what did they do under Vienna with more than 100 000 troops in 1683? And if they were weak why the Habsburg and Holy Pope delegates were asking on their knees Polish king for help?

Anyway - being a Pole I have some insights on that. Polish policy was wrong at that time. We did not have interest in saving Habsburgs etc. Our main opponent, rising and becoming more and more powerful, at that time was Russia. Going to war with Turkey was wasting our resources, money (Austria haven't paid for the Polish expedition in 1683 till today) and time. All of those factors and this Polish mistake, were used by Russia and Prussia soon..

Define "total decline". With decline I meant less effective military tactics and an increasingly more corrupt economy. Not to mention an increasingly ineffective command structure, burdened with extensive bureaucracy and corruption.

Not all of the Ottoman troops fought in the battle. Anyways this was not the first or the last time the Ottomans had 100'000+ armies in battle.

Salman
09-06-2008, 05:51 PM
Thank God and the people at Vienna & Poitier, we are not under the Crescent now
Fair enough, thank Allah for (insert battle here) the muslim world are still muslim today. p-)

johanness
09-06-2008, 05:53 PM
Don't want to destroy this joke, but ....

Salame got it's name from sale (italian for salt), a kind of preparation for meat to be savable

PanzerMaster
09-06-2008, 06:39 PM
Don't want to destroy this joke, but ....

Salame got it's name from sale (italian for salt), a kind of preparation for meat to be savable

mmm... possibile... word ending in "-ame" refer to a bunch "of something"

like "letame" (manure), "ciarpame" (lot of unuseful things, refusal)... so "Salame" can be "something with salt"...


How original. The cartoons didn't last long, but this baby has been around for 900 years. Ha.
Imagine an horde of Panzermasters (where Panza in Italy is Rome slang for "Big Belly") chargin whoever stole the salame! No wonder nobody tried to mess with that!

Edit: yeah, the whole anti-muslim conspiracy fo the salame is debunked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salami

deli_dumrul
09-06-2008, 07:46 PM
Mention about the crescent, a little off+topic addition :). A little footnote in early modern European culinary history.

The Battle of Vienna was responsible for the inventions of both the croissant and the pretzel. The bakers of Vienna, trying to hedge their bets as to whether the Muslims or the Christians would win the battle, baked some of their bread to the shape of an Islamic crescent moon (the croissant) and they also baked some of their bread to the shape of Christian praying hands (the pretzel).

The attitude of bakers of Vienna in 1683 reminds me a little the present policy of European states ...

Plus coffee.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Leipzig_coffeebaum_815.jpg/756px-Leipzig_coffeebaum_815.jpg

Umbro2914
09-06-2008, 11:43 PM
fascinating that the ottomen Empire was the only nation to not recognize the 3 paritions of Poland by Russia Austria and Prussia.

Lokos
09-07-2008, 02:09 AM
Not that fascinating. The Russians were their greatest enemies during this time-period. There was no reason for them to recognize the dismemberment of Poland as a legitimate move, seeing as it would strengthen the Russian position.

L.

Bartoha
09-07-2008, 03:55 AM
Yup, exactly. And that is funny that not even 100 years after battle of Vienna, in 1772, Austria took part in so called first partition of Poland, between Austria, Prussia and Russia, dividing Polish territories between themselves (this process finally ended in 1795, when Poland dissapeared from the map of Europe for 123 years). That is "gratefulness" for saving them in 1683 http://www.simaqianstudio.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif .

One more picture of Polish hussar, from the period of the battle of Vienna:

http://www21.brinkster.com/rocznice/Foto/Husarz.jpg

____________________________________________
Bartosz, Poland
Group of Historical Fencing Milites Alraunae
http://www.milites-alraunae.prv.pl (http://www.milites-alraunae.prv.pl/)

deli_dumrul
09-07-2008, 04:56 AM
Trivia #1

From the Turkish Naval Museum:

17th Century Naval Cannon captured during the Vienna Siege

Length : 240 cm
Diameter : 40 mm

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff163/deli_dumrul/Dm44.jpg

Trivia #2

Kara Mustafa's head was sent to Edirne for display from Belgrade.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Kara_Mustafa_Ibret_Tasi.jpg/402px-Kara_Mustafa_Ibret_Tasi.jpg

Trivia #3

http://trsavunma.com/resimler/2008/04/12/pzwnaayw.jpg

Two ottoman sipahis named Hasan and Şemdinlili Derviş Mehmet, the only muslims (AFAIK) in the Neustadter Str Andreas military cemetery.

They became POWs during the Siege of Vienna, brought to Hannover, and were assigned to the service of duchess Sophie. After serving 8 years, they both died within few months in 1691.

A Turkish plaque was place in 12.01.2000 to honor their memory. However, according to my source, last year the original text on the grave stones was altered...

Trivia #4

Moena Turkish Festival in Italy

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff163/deli_dumrul/3018781-The_jennisary_fountain-Moen.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff163/deli_dumrul/3018763-Italian_Turks_are_parading_.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff163/deli_dumrul/3018762-Turkey_in_Moena-Moena.jpg




When Vienna (Austria) was under siege by Ottomans around 1683's an Ottoman jannisery (Ottoman soldier) gets hurted in a field. An Ausburger citizen helps him and takes him to his town called Moena (a beautifull skii resort today at Dolomites north of Italy-Trentino). After a while the jannisery gets along well with the villagers, and starts to help them. Especially when the feodal lord of Ausburg asks for higher taxes from the Moena citisens the jennisary resists him on behalf of the villagers, and he succeeds well. So he becomes a hero among the village... Although he spends the rest of his life there in Moena he still practises his own Ottoman traditions. He never changes the style of Ottomanic dress, he never lives in a house. He prefers living in a Ottoman tent (he even gets marry with a girl from Moena and takes her to his tent to live instead of a house). After his passing away the people of Moena start to organize a festival on behalf of his memory.

So this year me and some of my friends got in touch with the municipality of Moena and told them that we want to join to this charming Turkish Festival. As they are very friendly the Mayor sent an official invitation to us to make the visa prosess faster. We packed up, my professional photographer friends also prepared a Ottoman Jennisary photograf exhibition for Moena and we flew to Italy.

It was a bit difficult for us to reach the town. We got in to 3 different trains, 1 bus and 20 min car drive to reach up Ýtalian Alpens... The Mayor and festival comittee welcomed us. Thanks for their hospitality....

Interestingly locals feel very close to Turkey although they never been to Turkey or they dont have any relations with Turkey. Some of them even dont know where Turkey is, but they just like Turkey. They even have a zone in the town called Turkey. People living in that zone say they are from Turkey:-) The festival takes 2 days and they decorates their houses (inside and outside) with Turkish flags. They dress up like Ottoman Turks (their Ottoman dresses look like 'Indian Dresses' thou...) They parade, dance, drink beer, make small exibitions and organise competitions etc... for 2 days... Many of locals says they are Turkish and they know they are not actually :-) There is also a very old jannisary fountain in the town.

Nobody knows about this festival in Turkey...

I made plenty of research about the festival after I came back home Istanbul but I couldnt find enough info neither on the net nor libraries. I guess we made a good job there. Tried to take some photographs, my friends made a nice exhibition also collected some documents and information about the area and the festival to represent them to official authorities and our colleagues.
http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/c1a7d/242b8/

daily666
09-07-2008, 05:27 AM
Not that fascinating. The Russians were their greatest enemies during this time-period. There was no reason for them to recognize the dismemberment of Poland as a legitimate move, seeing as it would strengthen the Russian position.

L.

You're right. But than, it is a social phenomenon that almost every kid in Poland knows Turkey was against the partitions, hence the good relations with Turks and Turkey.

Bartoha
09-07-2008, 05:46 AM
That is true.

And it was huge mistake of Polish and Turkish policymakers in the end of 17th century to fight each other, while at the same time was rising Polish and Turkish main opponent - Russia. Soon after the battle of Vienna, both of Poland and Turkey saw the results of that huge mistake ...

Another interesting article about battle of Vienna 1683, found at historynet.com sites:

http://www.historynet.com/turning-the-ottoman-tide-john-iii-sobieski-at-vienna-1683.htm#comment-10357


http://www.historynet.com/wp-content/uploads/image/2008/militaryhistoryquarterly/muslims-battle-christians-outside-vienna.jpg

____________________________________________
Bartosz, Poland
Group of Historical Fencing Milites Alraunae
http://www.milites-alraunae.prv.pl (http://www.milites-alraunae.prv.pl/)

deli_dumrul
09-11-2008, 06:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7xjwlc0wyM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GrK00LgT3w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS388TPSAAQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhbWB65zQVg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YNLve5_nPg

M1A2U2
09-11-2008, 07:47 PM
isnt mel gibson making a movie about this battle?

uTu
09-15-2008, 08:38 PM
Great thread, a pivotal point in Western history. An amazing story
As an aside can you imagine military leaders dressing like Starhemberg these days, lol?
http://www.wien-vienna.at/images4/tuerkenbelagerung73.jpg

perdurabo
09-16-2008, 07:04 AM
King Jan III Sobieski
http://www.historycy.org/r1e2c3/lwowsobieski.jpg

I would like our leaders looking more like him :)

Holycrusader
09-16-2008, 07:26 AM
King Jan III Sobieski
http://www.historycy.org/r1e2c3/lwowsobieski.jpg

I would like our leaders looking more like him :)

Kaczynski's are not enough STRONG!!!!?
I think at this point of our history we need leaders like Kazimierz Great. it means we need reformers and builders not warriors. We need highways not military victories :)
Ps
I like Jan III Sobieski vodka. Every respected leader should have his name on bottle of vodka.

Connaught Ranger
09-16-2008, 07:45 AM
Wise move. Very, very wise, in fact.

Poland as any other E.U. country will be expected to take their share of refugees, no exception.Mainly those seeking "economic" refugee status try various means to enter (illegally) the more affluent E.U. countries such has Germany, U.K., etc..etc.. Poland is not seen as a viable area by these people to make money in.

Connaught Ranger:)

Connaught Ranger
09-16-2008, 07:46 AM
isnt mel gibson making a movie about this battle?

Braveheartski :p

Bartoha
10-02-2008, 02:23 PM
Movie about the anniversary event in Krakow, Poland:

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=ntMGDnMirQQ

PsihoKeke
10-03-2008, 07:18 AM
It is written in article that Turks slaughtered all the prisoners in the camp, but I read somewhere that thousands of prisoners were saved when Poles captured the camp.
Also douring the siege aprox. half of Vienna university profesors perished in defense of city.

eugenlitwin
10-09-2008, 08:24 PM
Basicly you are right, but if they would be in total decline what did they do under Vienna with more than 100 000 troops in 1683? And if they were weak why the Habsburg and Holy Pope delegates were asking on their knees Polish king for help?

Anyway - being a Pole I have some insights on that. Polish policy was wrong at that time. We did not have interest in saving Habsburgs etc. Our main opponent, rising and becoming more and more powerful, at that time was Russia. Going to war with Turkey was wasting our resources, money (Austria haven't paid for the Polish expedition in 1683 till today) and time. All of those factors and this Polish mistake, were used by Russia and Prussia soon..

+1,Sobieski had to attack The Duchy of Prussia instead

"PS King John III Sobieski of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth had been made Commander in Chief of:

- his own 30,000-man Polish forces (Lithuanians did not take part in the battle),"


whats about The Lipka Tatars?

gtnskymtyyp
10-09-2008, 08:36 PM
Thank God and the people at Vienna & Poitier, we are not under the Crescent now

It wasn`t an Ottoman custom to convert the people under its rule to Islam. If that was the case the whole nations in the Balkans would be Muslims now. I think you`re confusing the Ottomon empire with the fascistic Christian European states of the middle agges and the early modern period which converted the whole Americas to Christianity through bloodshed. I hope you`re good at handling accurate arguments like this.