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Jaegermeister + Red Bull
09-06-2008, 11:45 AM
China still on-side with Russia (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/JI06Ad01.html)

By Yu Bin

Sino-Russian relations have been under intense scrutiny lately because of the Georgian-Russian conflict over the breakaway Georgian region of South Ossetia. For many in the West, China's cautious "neutrality" is a departure from, if not a betrayal of, its strategic partnership with Russia.

Such a view, among others, misreads the state of the Sino-Russian relationship without an adequate understanding of its depth, breadth and complexity. As a result, the Western perception of Beijing-Moscow ties has swung from one of threat against the West prior to the South Ossetia crisis to the current premature celebration of its obituary.

Neither is right. Both look at the superficiality while ignoring the substance. With the looming confrontation between Washington and Moscow over South Ossetia, the West itself seems to be getting lost in its tireless effort to renew the "Western civil war", which was said to have ended in 1991 when the Soviet Union collapsed.

South Ossetia and China's 'strategic ambiguity'
In the early morning of August 8, 2008, when President Dmitry Medvedev was on vacation and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin was in Beijing attending the Summer Olympics Games, Georgia launched a military offensive to surround and capture Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia.

Putin, who was in Beijing prior to the Olympics opening ceremony, immediately informed the Chinese side in his meeting with Premier Wen Jiabao on August 8. China's reaction to Georgia's assault, according to Putin, was that "nobody needs the war", which was also US President George W Bush's reaction.

Meanwhile, China expressed serious concern over the escalated tensions and armed conflict in South Ossetia, and urged both sides to exercise restraint, cease fire immediately and resolve their dispute peacefully through dialogue. In a way, Beijing did not publicly and explicitly support Moscow.

China's "strategic ambiguity", if not neutrality, regarding the Georgia-Russian conflict has been the focus of the media and pundits. Many tend to highlight the differences and conflicts of interest between China and Russia. China's move is seen as an effort to maximize its interests while Russia is going through difficult times with the West. China's own Taiwan problem is perhaps one major reason that China cannot publicly support Russia over this issue.

Most Central Asian states are also said to have reservations regarding Russia's policy, due to the large number of ethnic Russians living in this "near abroad" area and their "cautious neutrality" also shows the growing influence of China in this traditional sphere of influence of the Russians.

These apparent differences between Russia and its Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) partners - China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan - are indications of the fragility of this regional security group, and many of its members simply dream different dreams while sleeping on the same bed with Moscow. Last if not least, Georgia lost no time in thanking China for not taking sides.

These assessments, among others, may make some sense. There is, nonetheless a discernible switch in the West from exaggerating the strength, or threat, of the Sino-Russian strategic partnership to one of overplaying their differences, deliberately or not.

Both views are rooted in a misperception of the Beijing-Moscow strategic partnership, which essentially means a normal relationship. It is the result of a long and sometimes painful learning experience in the second half of the 20th century - in which relations between Moscow and Beijing oscillated between excessive dependence (particularly China on Russia) and almost zero interactions.

What is essential for today's Russian-China relationship is the absence of the ideological factors and border disputes that constantly besieged the two nations up to the early 1990s. On the operational level, it means that the two sides attach great importance to bilateral ties and share a strong willingness to commit to their enhancement. At the operational and functional level, it is largely a pragmatic approach "to conduct strategic coordination without alliance and close relationship without excessive dependence". Moreover, there is a willingness to develop the more cooperative aspects of their relationship while managing those of disagreement and competition.

It is within this context of normal relationship, not one of alliance, that China reacts to the Georgian-Russian conflict. (In terms of trade, bilateral trade between China and Russia, which has been growing at an average 30% pace annually over the past nine years, may reach US$50 billion in 2008, according to Gao Hucheng, Chinese vice minister of commerce. Bilateral trade hit $32.3 billion, up 29% year-on-year, in the January-July period of this year.)

'West's civil war' again? Stupid
In a broader sense, China's "harmonious world" means stability of the existing international system, despite the fact that it is dominated by the West. Indeed, China would like to see, as much as the West would, the stability and continuity of the existing international system, from which China has benefited enormously.
The Georgian-Russian conflict is in essence between Russia and the US. While finger-pointing was hurled between Moscow, Washington and Tbilisi regarding who made the first move, it is inconceivable that a small Georgia would dare to take on its giant neighbor without explicit support from Washington.

Indeed, Washington was not only aware of Georgian military actions before they started, it also explicitly sided with Tbilisi for the August surprise, which may have contributed to Saakashvili's recklessness and miscalculation. Whether the world is heading back to the Cold War or pre-World War I setting, the ghost of "Western civil war", which was claimed to have come to an end with the collapse of the former Soviet Union in 1991, is being rekindled by the Georgian/US-Russian conflict. Given this specter of a possible general instability of the international system, Beijing's cautious approach is perhaps quite natural.

Beijing's public "neutrality" toward the Georgia-Russian conflict, however, should not be a surprise in that it has been the pattern in China's diplomacy since the 1980s. In almost all cases ranging from international crises (Korean Peninsula, Iran, Kashmir, etc) to bilateral disputes (the South China Sea with the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, the East China Sea with Japan, border settlements with Russia, Vietnam, India - in progress- etc), China has opted for dialogue and compromise, rather than confrontation or side-taking. The same operational principle has applied to difficult issues such as Hong Kong and Taiwan.

Aside from this predictable pattern of China's approach to conflict and disputes, the timing of the conflict was also an irritant for Beijing. China did not want any conflict at the historical moment of hosting the Olympics, whether Russia was part of the conflict or not. Given the complexities of the ethnic conflicts dating back to the 1920s, its evolving nature and the US looming large in the background, China's cautious reaction was expected, if not desirable for Moscow.

SCO sounds no SOS
During the SCO's annual regular summit on August 28, in Dushanbe, Tajikistan, Medvedev briefed the SCO heads of state on the Georgian-Russian conflict and Russian policies. The Dushanbe Declaration does support Moscow's six principles of settling the conflict in South Ossetia and supports Russia's "active role" in promoting peace and cooperation in the region. The wording of its call for peaceful negotiations of the conflict, however, is vague and general at best.

The reason for the SCO's "neutrality" is both complicated and simple, complicated in that all of the SCO's Central Asian states were former Soviet republics. Many, if not all, of them do not want to see any replay of the Georgian-Russian conflict in their part of the world. That concern of the Central Asian states, however, remains a distant possibility, given that the SCO provides a framework for its members to resolve disputes and to achieve common purposes of security and development.

The key to the SCO's stance, however, lies in the nature and structure of the regional security group. Far from becoming a military bloc, like the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), in which members are obligated to defend one another, the SCO is a huge and diverse community of nations with considerable space for individual members to pursue their own policies for their own interests.

There is simply no obligation for SCO members to automatically commit themselves the way members of typical military alliances would do. Given these reasons, Medvedev perhaps never explicitly asked or demanded public support from the SCO members.

Under these circumstances, the SCO's joint Dushanbe Declaration actually means quite a lot for the Russians, particularly in Article 3: "The SCO welcomes the approval on 12 August 2008 in Moscow of the six principles of settling the conflict in South Ossetia, and supports the active role of Russia in promoting peace and cooperation in the region." The member states of the SCO also "express their deep concern" over the tension around the issue of South Ossetia and call for peaceful means through dialogue for reconciliation and facilitation of negotiations. This can be seen as directed to both sides, particularly Georgia, which started the ball rolling on August 8.

China back to its past, for the future
Last if not least, what China did was perhaps rational within the context of its strategic partnership relations with Russia. It is perhaps what Russia would do in a scenario of a China-US conflict over Taiwan. That is, Russia would more likely remain neutral though expressing sympathy for China. This was exactly what Moscow did in 2001 when a US spy plane (EP-3) collided with a Chinese jet fighter (J-8II) off China's coast, leading to a major crisis between China and the US.

Even if the Russians did not get all of what they wanted from China and the SCO summit, this is by no means the beginning of the end of their strategic partnership. Over the past 30 years, China's diplomacy, particularly its relations with Russia, has become far more sophisticated, nuanced, measured and matured.
To a large extent, China's foreign policy has gone back to its deeper philosophical underpinnings of "unity, harmony with or without uniformity" ( he er bu tong). This is also one of the psychological anchors for the Sino-Russian strategic partnership after the two extreme types of relationship of "honeymoon" (1950s) and "divorce" (1960s and 1970s) between Beijing and Moscow.

Western perceptions and expectations that Beijing and Moscow are heading toward some sort of "separation" are, therefore, an overstatement at best. It is also largely derived from the West's own experience and practice, which insists on unity because of (or by, of and for) uniformity. Hence, NATO members must be democracies and the European Union must be European, Christian and perhaps white. Applying the same "recipe" to the SCO and recent Sino-Russian relations, which have largely transcended the past practice of alliances, may lead to nowhere.

'Splendid isolation' in the 21st century
When the Georgian dust settles, the West may start to comprehend that the Sino-Russian strategic partnership is perhaps not as strong or weak as it appears. What is unclear, however, is whether the crisis between Washington and Moscow will be over, as Washington has rushed US$1 billion aid, and Vice President **** Cheney, to Georgia and NATO is amassing warships in the Black Sea.

The US presidential candidates, too, are rushing to demonize Russia and glorify Georgia as if there is no tomorrow. If this continues, the "Western civil war" may well turn into a brave new page for the 21st century focusing on Russia as the problem.

The irony is that Russia has wanted to rejoin the West over the past 20 years and is in no mood to confront the West. Each time, however, its unrequited affection of the West has led to dismay. Soon after assuming his presidency, Medvedev unleashed in Berlin his grand blueprint for a Euro-Atlantic community from Vancouver to Vladivostok. Within this community, Russia and Europe were said to share common roots, history, values and thinking. A month later, the Russian president again tossed around the same "Medvedev doctrine" at the Group of Eight summit in Japan. On the same day, however, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and the Czech Republic signed a missile defense agreement, to the dismay of Moscow.

Putin, too, began his presidency with an unambiguous Westpolitik (visiting Britain for his first foreign tour as Russian president, toyed with a "hypothetical" idea of Russia joining NATO, and "confessed" to the visiting Rice his "European essence" and his Asian superficiality of practicing judo and eating Chinese food). Over time, however, Putin became increasingly Euro-Asian.

Even Boris Yeltsin, father of the Russian Federation, began with an obsession of Western-style political democratization and economic shock therapy. Prior to his sudden exit from power at the end of 1999, Yeltsin chose Beijing to remind the West of Russia's huge nuclear arsenal, in a manner more like a recidivist Soviet premier. In between, the man who brought down the Soviet empire became progressively more disillusioned with the West.

It is time for the West to reflect on its current Ostpolitik (missile defense, NATO expansion, etc), not necessarily for the West's own interests, but the human race as a whole. The alternative is to stay the course in making Russia a problem for the 21st century. A key difference between this newfound obsession of the West and past stages of the Western civil war is that the world is now in an era of weapons of mass destruction.

Already, pundits are talking about possible mushroom clouds for World War III if Russia's rusted conventional military hardware fails to deter the other side. This scenario, no matter how distant, remains a possibility, which is qualitatively different from its predecessors of the 19th century when the West dealt with the French problem (the Napoleon Wars) and of the 20th century for the German problem (World War I and II). The latter sucked the whole world into West's own senseless mutual slaughtering.

If this remains a possibility, China, together with the rest of the non-Western world, will be better off staying out.

Yu Bin is senior research fellow for the Shanghai Association of American Studies and professor of political science at Wittenberg University, Ohio, US. He can be reached at byu@wittenberg.edu.

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hskywalker
09-06-2008, 12:40 PM
The best china can expect from russia in case of china-us crisis in taiwan or south china sea is staying neutral. So russia should not expect much from china during this georgia mess.

China doesn't care about eastern europe or caucasia, as russia doesn't care about south-eastern pacific. The current level of american imperialism is annoying but tolerable, it does not create the need for a china-russia alliance.

But these two countries can cooperate in problems involving korea,japan and central asia.

Adux
09-06-2008, 12:56 PM
I told you so!

maoddd
09-06-2008, 12:57 PM
China doesn't care about eastern europe or caucasia, as russia doesn't care about south-eastern pacific.

I don't particularly agree with you on this; russia Do care about SE asia, such as Cam Ranh bay.

strategic 'hot spots', or 'buffer zones' imo.

MZKT
09-06-2008, 05:48 PM
I don't particularly agree with you on this; russia Do care about SE asia, such as Cam Ranh bay.

strategic 'hot spots', or 'buffer zones' imo.

Russia abandoned Cam Ranh Bay (yes under Putin, not Jeltzin) and is not intending to come back or to Lourdes. Putins first term was actually a full military retreat, not better then Jelzins politics.

asch
09-07-2008, 12:29 AM
I don't particularly agree with you on this; russia Do care about SE asia, such as Cam Ranh bay.

strategic 'hot spots', or 'buffer zones' imo.
afaik, Northeastern Asia is much more attractive for us now. province level cooperation between NE Asia countries was and is happened in a great scale. more precisely, is anyone here know about NEARG allance, included Chinese, Japanese, South and North Korean, Russian and even Mongolian sides?

damagejackal
09-07-2008, 08:10 AM
more precisely, is anyone here know about NEARG allance, included Chinese, Japanese, South and North Korean, Russian and even Mongolian sides?

Unfortunately, I think any East Asian alliance Is just not realistic ...Asia's a region that only very recently has gotten its sovernity back after 300 years of war an colonisation, I can't see any countries willing to commit to a regional pact any time soon.

asch
09-07-2008, 08:24 AM
Unfortunately, I think any East Asian alliance Is just not realistic ...Asia's a region that only very recently has gotten its sovernity back after 300 years of war an colonisation, I can't see any countries willing to commit to a regional pact any time soon.
at state level you right. but NEARG is economical ties that bound Tottori Prefecture of Japan, Jilin Province (China), Gangwon Province (S. Korea), Tuv Amag (Mongolia) and Primorsky Territory (Russia).
local government vise it's a great opportunity for all involved.

Jaegermeister + Red Bull
09-07-2008, 05:33 PM
The article simply shows the maturity of China/Russian relations compared to the Europe/Russian and USA/Russian one, in a very short period of time.

State to State relationships should be based on economic ties and mutual interest (distrust for the jaded and cynical...lol).


"Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other."



It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world; so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements... But, in my opinion, it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.



There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion, which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

-Julik- 4.GdKp
09-08-2008, 07:26 AM
Great article,thx!

KuroiRyu
09-08-2008, 07:30 AM
But these two countries can cooperate in problems involving korea,japan and central asia.

Uh? And wich kind?

Olegi
09-08-2008, 08:51 AM
The best china can expect from russia in case of china-us crisis in taiwan or south china sea is staying neutral. So russia should not expect much from china during this georgia mess.



it does not create the need for a china-russia alliance

Agree. Looks like a China-Russia relationships is growing based on pragmatic partnership and common respect to each other. I like to see that going this way.

IMO, the main problem of the West is that all what we do is still interpreted through the cold war prism, which sometimes just sad to see.

Olegi
09-08-2008, 08:59 AM
Uh? And wich kind?

China had, in "soft" words, not very good story of relationships with Japan in XX-th century. Russia too - we still don't even have peace treaty with Japan. It means, we still can attack each other even if nobody wants to do that now. But these two stories are different, IMO.

Magnus18
09-08-2008, 09:02 AM
im not sure about that chinese russian relationship.
that isnt a military partnership because they have different interests.
the chinese economy depands on the european and us partnership too.

Olegi
09-08-2008, 09:49 AM
im not sure about that chinese russian relationship.
that isnt a military partnership because they have different interests.
the chinese economy depands on the european and us partnership too.

Mostly from US, I guess. That is why I think that friendly and pragmatic relationships between Russia and China without any strong alliances is the best way for both sides.

Jaegermeister + Red Bull
09-08-2008, 10:11 AM
im not sure about that chinese russian relationship.
that isnt a military partnership because they have different interests.
the chinese economy depands on the european and us partnership too.

Hence it is a mature, realistic state to state relation...

...based on looking after its own interest, whatever that maybe.

Your statements merely reflected the whole point of the article.

sepheronx
09-08-2008, 10:15 AM
But these kind of relationships are the best, especially for Russia. Since China is reliant on Russian technology (mostly, they develop their own, but they get a lot of it from USA and Russia, but mostly Russia in terms of military tech) and also, Russia has the most natural resources that Europe and China need and want. If Sanctions where put upon Russia, then most likely, they would turn to China for everything else, which would be cheap. Russia would sell even more oil to China, and most likely do co-development (add billions) to joint development of nanotechnology and such.

China may only be a Defense ally of Russia, simply because they share some common interests compared to the west, and that they are neighbors as well.

carlzheng
09-08-2008, 12:03 PM
how can west accept china into their side?
democratic club is overnumbered,so tyrants hold their own party.
oil,raw material,money and so on are the prize for the winner.no much differences from 19's century

chino65
09-08-2008, 02:04 PM
...as russia doesn't care about south-eastern pacific. The current level of american imperialism is annoying but tolerable, it does not create the need for a china-russia alliance.

But these two countries can cooperate in problems involving korea,japan and central asia.

Russia still occupies a chunk of land claimed by Japan. (Since WW2, I think.) Japan wants it back, Russia is not budging.

Does this qualify as "caring about" the Pacific or not?

aed1980
09-22-2008, 08:13 PM
In the near future i see china siding more with europe and the US, and departing from russia. They are both neighbours, and russia had and will always have an imperial behaviour, so i see conflict between both of them in the future.

asch
09-23-2008, 07:46 PM
Russia still occupies a chunk of land claimed by Japan. (Since WW2, I think.) Japan wants it back, Russia is not budging.

Does this qualify as "caring about" the Pacific or not?
Kuriles in the Northeast Pacific, not Southeast.

PeterRJG
09-23-2008, 07:52 PM
Kuriles in the Northeast Pacific, not Southeast.

Northwest mate, the Aleutians are in the northeast. :D

Eventine
09-23-2008, 08:27 PM
In the near future i see china siding more with europe and the US, and departing from russia. They are both neighbours, and russia had and will always have an imperial behaviour, so i see conflict between both of them in the future.

Russia actually has a pretty good thing going with China. What people don't seem to get is that China is, and probably always will be, an existential threat to the Russian Federation. The simple fact is this - Russia has too much land, and too few Russians to hold it. If China wanted Siberia and/or the Russian Far East, only the threat of Russian nukes will keep them from it, and since China has nukes too, I doubt the Russians are in a real position to stop the Chinese if they aimed to separate Russia-Europe from Russia-Asia by less direct means.

But of course, Russia has trump cards on China, as well. Xinjiang and Tibet, and perhaps even Inner Mongolia, are regions that China wants to keep and which Russians can help hold (or, if it comes down to it, help separate). That's the current status of Sino-Russian relations - you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours. If China ever loses control of Tibet and Xinjiang, or if Russia ever loses control of Siberia and the Far East, then things could get complicated and hostile fast. It is thus in the interests of both countries' leadership that the status quo remains.

And really, if you think about it, Russia's position is such that a unfriendly China of any sort will drastically limit its geo-political options. China holds, approximately, the equivalent of the US's position in the Americas in East Asia - it's the 800-lb panda that everyone has to be wary of. Just as Canada cannot likely prosper with a hostile US, Russia cannot likely prosper with a hostile China. It has to do retain good relations with the Middle Kingdom, in the long-term, because it is the one country (not India, not the US, not Japan) that shares the longest border with China, and is thus likely to receive the bulk of any Chinese offensive if it were to side against China.

asch
09-23-2008, 08:46 PM
Northwest mate, the Aleutians are in the northeast. :D
:oops:
me not engrish speeka, mista.
p-)

aed1980
09-23-2008, 08:50 PM
Russia actually has a pretty good thing going with China. What people don't seem to get is that China is, and probably always will be, an existential threat to the Russian Federation. The simple fact is this - Russia has too much land, and too few Russians to hold it. If China wanted Siberia and/or the Russian Far East, only the threat of Russian nukes will keep them from it, and since China has nukes too, I doubt the Russians are in a real position to stop the Chinese if they aimed to separate Russia-Europe from Russia-Asia by less direct means.

But of course, Russia has trump cards on China, as well. Xinjiang and Tibet, and perhaps even Inner Mongolia, are regions that China wants to keep and which Russians can help hold (or, if it comes down to it, help separate). That's the current status of Sino-Russian relations - you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours. If China ever loses control of Tibet and Xinjiang, or if Russia ever loses control of Siberia and the Far East, then things could get complicated and hostile fast. It is thus in the interests of both countries' leadership that the status quo remains.

And really, if you think about it, Russia's position is such that a unfriendly China of any sort will drastically limit its geo-political options. China holds, approximately, the equivalent of the US's position in the Americas in East Asia - it's the 800-lb panda that everyone has to be wary of. Just as Canada cannot likely prosper with a hostile US, Russia cannot likely prosper with a hostile China. It has to do retain good relations with the Middle Kingdom, in the long-term, because it is the one country (not India, not the US, not Japan) that shares the longest border with China, and is thus likely to receive the bulk of any Chinese offensive if it were to side against China.

Thanks for the analysis man, appreciate.

zg18
09-24-2008, 04:16 AM
Chinese-Russian relations are relations of an experienced countries,where they do share common interests they will act united (like undermining U.S. positions in Central Asia), where they don't have common interests the countries will act separately (Russia in Georgia or China in Taiwan etc.) and will not publicly support each other.This approach ensures no 'conflict of interests' unlike what today we see in western organizations (NATO,EU).


And really, if you think about it, Russia's position is such that a unfriendly China of any sort will drastically limit its geo-political options. China holds, approximately, the equivalent of the US's position in the Americas in East Asia - it's the 800-lb panda that everyone has to be wary of. Just as Canada cannot likely prosper with a hostile US, Russia cannot likely prosper with a hostile China. It has to do retain good relations with the Middle Kingdom, in the long-term, because it is the one country (not India, not the US, not Japan) that shares the longest border with China, and is thus likely to receive the bulk of any Chinese offensive if it were to side against China.

But this also works in the other way around,China already has counterparts (Japan,Taiwan, S.Korea,Vietnam,India) and Russia on that list is definitely not Beijing interest, Russia as an enemy of China can hurt her more than any other traditional Chinese adversary.