Soviet rocket program before WW2

[Wrangel]

There is a popular belief in the west,and US in particular,that rocket development and space research in Soviet Union and in USA (after WW2) is totally due to German technology and scientists captured near the end of that war.
This belief is only partially true,mostly in the US case where former German scientist Wernher Von Braun had become leader of US space program.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun

In the US there were other prominent German scientists,like Hermann Oberth and Ernst Stuhlinger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Oberth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Stuhlinger

Not only that,but Americans also captured industrial facilities for production of V-1 and V-2 rockets (Dora-Mittelwerk).

Although Americans had the most prominent German rocket scientists,technology and financial resources it was the Soviets,and not Americans that have send first satellite,first living being and first human in space,and also first lunar probe.

How is possible that America with main German scientists and alleged 'superior' technology was unable to send a man in orbit until the flight of John Glenn,while Yuri Gagarin made entire orbit over Earth before landing?

First American that performed suborbital flight (Alan Shepard) used 'Redstone' rocket,designed by Von Braun which was basically two-stage V-2 missile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redstone_(rocket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redstone_%28rocket))

Redstone rocket was unable to send spacecraft into orbit,because it was too weak.
Later 'Atlas' rockets that were used to finally send Americans into orbit were much better,but had problems.

Soviet rocket 'Vostok' was able to send a man in a orbit,and was conceptually very different from V-2 missile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostok_8K72K


Clearly Soviets were more than just imitators of German technology,and their rockets were much more powerful and reliable,then those constructed by actual German rocket scientists in USA.
Its true,that Soviets captured some German scientists and technology after WW2,which was very useful for them...however it is clear that Soviet rocket technology had unique features,that was result of previous experience with rocketry.
German experience in WW2 was valuable in development of Soviet space program,however Soviets had their own rocket program,before the war.

And unlike Americans,Soviets didn't need to import foreigners to run their space program,since their engineers had great previous experience with rocket propulsion.

More about that experience:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIRD



Russian Group of Study of Reactive Motion (in Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language): Группа изучения реактивного движения (ГИРД), transliterated GIRD) was a Soviet research bureau founded in 1931 to study various aspects of rocketry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket), which was later incorporated into the Reaction-Engine Scientific Research Institute (RNII).


GIRD was created on September 15, 1931. There were a number of amateur groups and solitary researchers in existence, but GIRD was the world's first large professional rocketry program. The group was organized as four brigades and ten projects to study rocket engines and also winged and wingless missiles. Sergey Korolev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Korolev), the future leader of the Soviet space program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_space_program), was the over-all director of GIRD, as well as a brigade leader and the chairman of its technical council.

Project 05

Mikhail Klavdievich Tikhonravov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Klavdievich_Tikhonravov), who would later supervise the design of Sputnik I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_I) and the Luna programme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_programme), headed GIRD's 2nd Brigade, responsible for the Project 05 rocket in a joint effort with the Gas Dynamics Lab (GDL) in Leningrad. Project 05 used the ORM-50 engine developed by Valentin Glushko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentin_Glushko), which was fuelled by nitric acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_acid) and kerosene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene) with its nozzle regeneratively cooled (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_cooling_%28rocket%29) by the flow of acid. First tested in November 1933, the ORM-50 predated Eugen Sänger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_S%C3%A4nger)'s regeneratively cooled engine, which was not tested in Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria) until May 1934. The 05 rocket contained four long tanks, enclosed in a body with a four-lobed cross section. It was never completed, but its design formed the basis of the later Aviavnito (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aviavnito&action=edit&redlink=1) rocket, powered by Leonid Dushkin's 12-K engine and fueled by liquid oxygen and alcohol, which was first launched in 1936 and achieved an altitude of 3,000 m (9,800 ft) in 1937.GIRD was under patronage of General Mikhail Tukhachevsky.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Tukhachevsky

Tukhachevsky was one of the most prominent victims of Stalinist purges in 1937,and his fate influenced his subordinates,amongst them Sergey Korolev.
Many of them were imprisoned for some time,and entire program was stopped.
However experience from GIRD program,was helpful to Soviet scientists after WW2.

Some pictures,from this site:

http://www.mentallandscape.com/S_GIRD.htm

http://www.mentallandscape.com/G_OR1b.jpg

OR-1 Engine



http://www.mentallandscape.com/G_X.jpg


The GIRD-X Rocket (1933)




http://www.mentallandscape.com/G_Aviavnito.jpg


Aviavnito Rocket

http://www.mentallandscape.com/G_ORM50.jpg


ORM-50 Engine



http://www.mentallandscape.com/G_07.jpg


The GIRD-07 Rocket


http://www.mentallandscape.com/G_Ramjet2.jpg


GIRD-08 Ramjet Engine


http://www.mentallandscape.com/G_RP1c.jpg

RP-1 Rocket Glider


Its interesting to see similarity with later German 'Horten' flying wing design....

http://www.mentallandscape.com/G_RP1b.jpg


Cheranovsky and Korolev



http://www.mentallandscape.com/G_06.jpg


Cruise Missile on Launching Sled (1936)


http://www.mentallandscape.com/G_06_212.jpg


212 Cruise Missile (1939)


http://www.mentallandscape.com/G_GPS3.jpg

GPS-3 Gyroscopic Autopilot

It is also interesting to see similarities between Soviet cruise missile,and late German V-1 rocket...
Then we may also ask who copied whom? p-)

[Kitsune]

After WWI, the Sovietunion "packed in" easily as much German scientists, engineers and technology as the Americans did (and, like the other victorious states of that war, not only such having to do with rockets or aircraft). The main difference was that they tried to transfer the know-how of those Germans as fast to Soviet heads as possible - people with proper Russian names - and afterwards did everything to play the role of German technical and scientific expertise down to the best of their abilities, whereas the Americans were far more candid as far as this is concerned. The mere idea that the Soviet successes with Sputnik and Gagarin could have much to do with foreigners was regarded as downright offensive.

A reason for this was that for Russia (aka Sovietunion) the notion that it would be a technologically somewhat backward nation was always a sore spot...most likely because it actually was a technologically backward country in most regards. Another reason was ideology: according to the Soviet worldview, the socialist society was supposed to be superior to the western capitalist or fascist states and as such it was of course more innovative and productive and also produced superior people, wether they be soldiers, workers or scientists. Any successes (like the victory in WWII or the first triumphs of the Soviet space program) were therefore to be seen as the direct consequence of the Soviet system...and with this in mind it goes without saying that it was of course absolutely unnecessary to import scientists from dastardly Nazi Germany of all places.

However, the truth of the matter is that the aircraft and rocket technology of Germany in the time around WWII was superior to the existing Soviet one, that the Soviets learned a lot from it, and that neither Sputnik nor Leika nor Gagarin would have gone into space the time they did without German knowledge. It cannot be denied that the developements of Soviet rocket technology advanced far beyond those beginnings but, in the end, it was the American side (with their more open participation of Germans like Werner von Braun for what it is worth) that landed first on the moon, a feat that the Soviets never matched.

[KoTeMoRe]

After WWI, the Sovietunion "packed in" easily as much German scientists, engineers and technology as the Americans did (and, like the other victorious states of that war, not only such having to do with rockets or aircraft). The main difference was that they tried to transfer the know-how of those Germans as fast to Soviet heads as possible - people with proper Russian names - and afterwards did everything to play the role of German technical and scientific expertise down to the best of their abilities, whereas the Americans were far more candid as far as this is concerned. The mere idea that the Soviet successes with Sputnik and Gagarin could have much to do with foreigners was regarded as downright offensive.

A reason for this was that for Russia (aka Sovietunion) the notion that it would be a technologically somewhat backward nation was always a sore spot...most likely because it actually was a technologically backward country in most regards. Another reason was ideology: according to the Soviet worldview, the socialist society was supposed to be superior to the western capitalist or fascist states and as such it was of course more innovative and productive and also produced superior people, wether they be soldiers, workers or scientists. Any successes (like the victory in WWII or the first triumphs of the Soviet space program) were therefore to be seen as the direct consequence of the Soviet system...and with this in mind it goes without saying that it was of course absolutely unnecessary to import scientists from dastardly Nazi Germany of all places.

However, the truth of the matter is that the aircraft and rocket technology of Germany in the time around WWII was superior to the existing Soviet one, that the Soviets learned a lot from it, and that neither Sputnik nor Leika nor Gagarin would have gone into space the time they did without German knowledge. It cannot be denied that the developements of Soviet rocket technology advanced far beyond those beginnings but, in the end, it was the American side (with their more open participation of Germans like Werner von Braun for what it is worth) that landed first on the moon, a feat that the Soviets never matched.

Wrong...the First Moon landing was soviet...

Try Luna 2 for starters. The American landed the first human to the moon.

[Wrangel]

After WWI, the Sovietunion "packed in" easily as much German scientists, engineers and technology as the Americans did (and, like the other victorious states of that war, not only such having to do with rockets or aircraft). The main difference was that they tried to transfer the know-how of those Germans as fast to Soviet heads as possible - people with proper Russian names - and afterwards did everything to play the role of German technical and scientific expertise down to the best of their abilities, whereas the Americans were far more candid as far as this is concerned. The mere idea that the Soviet successes with Sputnik and Gagarin could have much to do with foreigners was regarded as downright offensive.


As we clearly have seen from my above links,Soviet rocket technology in 30-es was equal and in some aspects even advanced then German.
As I said,there were indeed German scientists and technology present in Soviet Union after the war,and this was quite useful.However Soviet achievements in that area are not solely because of Germans.



A reason for this was that for Russia (aka Sovietunion) the notion that it would be a technologically somewhat backward nation was always a sore spot...most likely because it actually was a technologically backward country in most regards.

'Technologically backward' nations do not win world wars against 'superior' nations. :)


You are confusing technological and industrial might of nation with living standard of its citizens.




in the end, it was the American side (with their more open participation of Germans like Werner von Braun for what it is worth) that landed first on the moon, a feat that the Soviets never matched.

That was only American achievement in space, ahead of Soviets.

[Kilgor]

As we clearly have seen from my above links,Soviet rocket technology in 30-es was equal and in some aspects even advanced then German.
As I said,there were indeed German scientists and technology present in Soviet Union after the war,and this was quite useful.However Soviet achievements in that area are not solely because of Germans.

That was only American achievement in space, ahead of Soviets.

If soviet technology was so advanced, why the first Soviet ballastic missile a copy of the V1 ie, the R1

[Wrangel]

If soviet technology was so advanced, why the first Soviet ballastic missile a copy of the V1 ie, the R1

Because V2 was first ballistic missile.

R1 was copy of V2 not V1,which was cruise missile.


After the Stalinist purges,Soviet rocket program was stopped until the end of WW2.Germans,during the war developed first actual ballistic missile.
That was not because of 'superiority',but out of desperation of German side.

Soviet government simply didn't financed its own Rocket program during the war,like Germans did.
Germans already created first ballistic missile,so Soviets used that technological solution to boost their own program(like Americans).
However Soviets combined their previous experience in rocketry with German V-2 technology to create much better rockets.

[Kitsune]

As we clearly have seen from my above links,Soviet rocket technology in 30-es was equal and in some aspects even advanced then German.
I fail to see that clearly from your links. Some models of rockets, cruise missiles and something that would be allegedly similiar to a Horten flying wing...that is all not the same as the real thing. (When I was little, I possessed a model of an interstellar spaceship, capable of superluminal flight...at least in my imagination). Take a closer look at the picture of the little cruise missile sitting on its sledge: wether it ever flew or not, it does look somewhat retouched, does it not? (Actually it is even possible that the whole thing could have been added to the picture.)




'Technologically backward' nations do not win world wars against 'superior' nations. If they and their industries are as single-mindedly geared towards the military as the Sovietunion's was, they may do so. To be heavily supported by America does not hurt either. During the first half of the twentieth century (up to 1945 that is) Germany, wether ruled by Kaiser, Weimarian democrats or Nazis, was one of the technologically and scientifically leading nations of the world (in the end matched truly only by the US), while Sovietunion was not. As I said, that being so was a sore spot for the Soviets who wanted to change that - however they never really succeded. The truth is that Sovietunion was comparatively backwards with regards to science and technology, wether you talk about the year 1923, 1957 or 1989. Like it or not.




You are confusing technological and industrial might of nation with living standard of its citizens. I think that you are mistaken to think that winning a war (through attrition) or even sending the first satellite, dog and man into space is proof of technological superiority. It is not. Certainly the space program was invaluable for Soviet propaganda to "prove" it to everyone that the Sovietunion would be a high-tech nation - which soon would surpass the West in all regards. But look - the Japan of today is technologically clearly way superior to the Sovietunion of the 1960ties...yet is has never sent a dog nor a man into space. Neither is the architectural ability of the USA of today lower than the one of Old China, despite the fact that they have never built a Great Wall (unless you count the one on the Mexican border, that is).

[Wrangel]

I fail to see that clearly from your links. Some models of rockets, cruise missiles and something that would be allegedly similiar to a Horten flying wing...that is all not the same as the real thing. (When I was little, I possessed a model of an interstellar spaceship, capable of superluminal flight...at least in my imagination).


I'm not sure if you could actually fly in that model of interstellar spaceship...



wether it ever flew or not, it does look somewhat retouched, does it not? (Actually it is even possible that the whole thing could have been added to the picture.)

Strange,but if I had used the same skepticism..for something that Americans did,you would probably called me "conspiracy theorist".

But when Russia is topic,any conspiracy theory is plausible....:roll:



If they and their industries are as single-mindedly geared towards the military as the Sovietunion's was, they may do so.

Are you saying that Hitler's Germany was not single-mindedly geared towards the military?




To be heavily supported by America does not hurt either.

America entered the war in the late 1941,and was able to send aid in middle of 1942 onwards.


During the first half of the twentieth century (up to 1945 that is) Germany, wether ruled by Kaiser, Weimarian democrats or Nazis, was one of the technologically and scientifically leading nations of the world (in the end matched truly only by the US), while Sovietunion was not.

Germany was indeed amongst technologically and scientifically advanced nations in the world.However my post is about rocket technology of Soviet union,before WW2 that was superior to German rocket program before WW2.So you're totally missing the topic.

US have become scientifically advanced mostly through importing European scientists,during and after WW2,mainly because of money.



The truth is that Sovietunion was comparatively backwards with regards to science and technology, wether you talk about the year 1923, 1957 or 1989. Like it or not.

Great,then there was no need for cold war,nor space race....p-)




I think that you are mistaken to think that winning a war (through attrition)

And US wins war by dropping flowers on enemy cities.Why,Germany and Japan simply wanted to be defeated by US,because you are so cool.

Why Hiroshima,Nagasaki,Hamburg,Dresden,Ruhr..etc were clearly not winning the war through attrition....only Russians do such a thing.




or even sending the first satellite, dog and man into space is proof of technological superiority.

Indeed it is not....how silly of me. :roll:

First satellite,first animal in space,first man in space,first woman in space,first spacewalk,first probe on moon...most powerful nuclear weapon (Tsar bomba),fastest submarine (Alpha),biggest submarine (Typhoon),deepest diving military submarine (K-278 Komsomolets)...and small 'irrelevant' Russian contribution to science like entire idea of space exploration (Tsiolkovski),periodic system of elements (Mendeleev),Non-Euclidean geometry(Lobachevski),first experimental fusion reactor (Tokamak reactor)...etc.these are clearly not sign of technological superiority....rofl



Its only when Americans are first,then it is sign of technological superiority.



Certainly the space program was invaluable for Soviet propaganda to "prove" it to everyone that the Sovietunion would be a high-tech nation - which soon would surpass the West in all regards.

And American space program was invaluable for US propaganda to "prove" it to everyone that Americans are best.


But look - the Japan of today is technologically clearly way superior to the Sovietunion of the 1960ties...yet is has never sent a dog nor a man into space.

Japan is clearly way richer then Sovietunion,and makes interesting gadgets.


Here is Russian TV,from 1932:

http://www.tvhistory.tv/1932-Russian-TV.jpg

Clearly sign of backward nation....

[DDD]

As we clearly have seen from my above links,Soviet rocket technology in 30-es was equal and in some aspects even advanced then German.
As I said,there were indeed German scientists and technology present in Soviet Union after the war,and this was quite useful.However Soviet achievements in that area are not solely because of Germans.


No one (soviets,germans,americans) has rocket technology in 30-es.
All we could see is some early R&D.

Actually it was reason why the V2 (aka R1) was cloned - to build technological and maintenance chains and build the early rocket forces. Another thing is that for strong R&D team getting into internals of competing project is very useful. At least to investigate and not to repeat mistakes. One could compare R1 and R2 (modified R1) designs to compare. Btw, the story is described pretty well in Tchertock book.



'Technologically backward' nations do not win world wars against 'superior' nations. :)

You are confusing technological and industrial might of nation with living standard of its citizens.


Technological excellence and real life are pretty often quite far one from another. A very good example (or better whole set of examples) of this is Nebelwerfer vs Katusha comparison.




That was only American achievement in space, ahead of Soviets.

Wrong again. Rather a lots of achievements. More, if you look on the books of those taking part in competition you will see that both sides are very eager to recognize achievements of other side.
What is particularly interesting is that both sides are considering not only technological advantages of other side, but organizational as well. More, sometimes it looks like organizational advantages/differences were considered often as more important than technological. :)

[KuroiRyu]

If soviet technology was so advanced, why the first Soviet ballastic missile a copy of the V1 ie, the R1

From the AK-47 to the RPG-2, from the Tu-4 to the MiG-15 was just cheap copy and reverse...

[Wrangel]

No one (soviets,germans,americans) has rocket technology in 30-es.
All we could see is some early R&D.



Thats depends on how do you want to define 'rocket technology'....:roll:


Wrong again. Rather a lots of achievements. More, if you look on the books of those taking part in competition you will see that both sides are very eager to recognize achievements of other side.
What is particularly interesting is that both sides are considering not only technological advantages of other side, but organizational as well. More, sometimes it looks like organizational advantages/differences were considered often as more important than technological.

I'm not sure in what manner US had 'organizational advantages' over SSSR in space race?

[DDD]

Thats depends on how do you want to define 'rocket technology'....:roll:


There is no special 'rocket technology', just 'technology'. When I was building rockets in my childhood it was very similar to what GIRD and everybody else did - R&D, except I didnt bother myself with math ;-). When you build what you want to build and especially build them on a factory it is the technology.



I'm not sure in what manner US had 'organizational advantages' over SSSR in space race?

There is no single soviet source I've seen which didnt criticize soviet side for inability to select well defined goals and concentrate on them, especially for moon race. However, there is another side of the problem. Such dis-organisation brings some pretty useful fruits sometimes, and we could see them on the sample of moon race as well. :)

[DDD]

From the AK-47 to the RPG-2, from the Tu-4 to the MiG-15 was just cheap copy and reverse...

Actually here we could see at least 3 different cases stacked together, so lets unstack them for clarity:
- AK-47. Dont want to discuss it at all. If one is too lazy to at least google it , let he lives with this opinion.
- RPG-2 and Tu-4. No doubts - they are copies.
- MiG-15. As I understand the license was bought, so no reverse engineering was required.

I dont see anything wrong in stealing (or in worst case buying) designs/idea/etc. Show me one who will not do it. It's just a time/resources being won. One could also take attention that in case of RPG and Nene the investments were made into further development and one could see fruits of such further development, while in case of Tu-4 we see a typical cul-de-sac project.

[Wrangel]

There is no special 'rocket technology', just 'technology'. When I was building rockets in my childhood it was very similar to what GIRD and everybody else did - R&D, except I didnt bother myself with math ;-). When you build what you want to build and especially build them on a factory it is the technology.




So you have built liquid fueled rockets,and engines...guided cruise missiles etc?

Well,I may use your relativism,to speculate that Germans also didn't had technology,since V-2 producing facilities were actually concentration camps,that used slave labor and not factories in real sense of the word...

But then it all depends on how you define 'factory','technology'..etc.

GIRD represents rocket technology,but not industrial technology based on serial production.
If we use your logic,then any prototype of machine is not technology since it is not made in factory.

I think such reasoning is absurd.


There is no single soviet source I've seen which didnt criticize soviet side for inability to select well defined goals and concentrate on them, especially for moon race. However, there is another side of the problem. Such dis-organisation brings some pretty useful fruits sometimes, and we could see them on the sample of moon race as well.

Soviets were quite able to achieve almost all of their goals,except Moon landing.
Only thing that Americans achieved ahead of Russians was human Moon landing.

So because Soviets were unable to send man on Moon,therefore they were disorganized in other plans as well (that have achieved)?


Here are Russian achievements in space:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_space_program


The Soviet space program pioneered many aspects of space exploration:


1957: First intercontinental ballistic missile, the R-7 Semyorka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-7_Semyorka)
1957: First satellite, Sputnik 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_1)
1957: First animal to enter Earth orbit, the dog Laika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laika) on Sputnik 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_2)
1959: First firing of a rocket in Earth orbit, first man-made object to escape Earth's orbit, Luna 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_1)
1959: First data communications, or telemetry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telemetry), to and from outer space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_space), Luna 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_1).
1959: First man-made object to pass near the Moon, first man-made object in Solar orbit, Luna 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_1)
1959: First probe to impact the moon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon), Luna 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_2)
1959: First images of the moon's far side (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_side_%28Moon%29), Luna 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_3)
1960: First animals to safely return from Earth orbit, the dogs Belka and Strelka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belka_and_Strelka) on Sputnik 5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_5).
1960: First probe launched to Mars, Marsnik 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsnik_1)
1961: First probe launched to Venus, Venera 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venera_1)
1961: First person in space (International definition) and in Earth orbit, Yuri Gagarin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Gagarin) on Vostok 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostok_1), Vostok programme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostok_programme)
1961: First person to spend over a day in space Gherman Titov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gherman_Titov), Vostok 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostok_2) (also first person to sleep in space).
1962: First dual manned spaceflight and approach, Vostok 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostok_3) and Vostok 4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostok_4). While considered by some to be the first space rendezvous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_rendezvous), Vostok 3 and 4 were 5 km apart as they passed each other in the closest point in their respective orbits, and the orbits were in different orbital planes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_plane_%28astronomy%29). US Gemini 6A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_6A)/Gemini 7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_7) did the first parallel flight, three years later, however without docking. Actual docking was first done in 1967 by Soviet Cosmos 186/Cosmos 188 and manned docking with exchange of crew was first done by Soviet Soyuz 4/Soyuz 5 (see below).
1963: First woman in space, Valentina Tereshkova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentina_Tereshkova), Vostok 6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostok_6)
1964: First multi-man crew (3), Voskhod 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voskhod_1)
1965: First EVA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-vehicular_activity), by Aleksei Leonov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksei_Leonov), Voskhod 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voskhod_2)
1965: First probe to hit another planet (Venus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_%28planet%29)), Venera 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venera_3)
1966: First probe to make a soft landing on and transmit from the surface of the moon, Luna 9 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_9)
1966: First probe in lunar orbit, Luna 10 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_10)
1967: First unmanned rendezvous and docking, Cosmos 186 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmos_186)/Cosmos 188 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmos_188). (Until 2006, this had remained the only major space achievement that the US had not duplicated.)
1969: First docking between two manned craft in Earth orbit and exchange of crews, Soyuz 4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_4) and Soyuz 5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_5)
1970: First samples automatically returned to Earth from another body, Luna 16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_16)
1970: First robotic space rover, Lunokhod 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunokhod_1)
1970: First data received from the surface of another planet (Venus), Venera 7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venera_7)
1971: First space station, Salyut 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salyut_1)
1971: First probe to orbit another planet (Mars), first probe to reach surface of Mars, Mars 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_2)
1975: First probe to orbit Venus, first photos from surface of Venus, Venera 9 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venera_9)
1984: First woman to walk in space (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-vehicular_activity), Svetlana Savitskaya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svetlana_Savitskaya) (Salyut 7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salyut_7) space station)
1986: First crew to visit two separate space stations (Mir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir) and Salyut 7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salyut_7))
1986: First permanently manned space station, Mir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir), which orbited (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit) the Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth) from 1986 until 2001
1987: First crew to spend over one year in space, Vladimir Titov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Titov) and Musa Manarov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_Manarov) on board of TM-4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=TM-4&action=edit&redlink=1) - Mir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir)



In addition, except for the period following Korolyov's death in 1965 through the end of the Skylab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylab) program in 1974, virtually all manned duration records have been set by Russians, largely because of the Salyut/Mir series of space stations.

Clearly,signs of Russian technical inferiority...rofl

And Americans have...Moon landing?
So,because of that one achievement American organization is 'superior'?

[Kilgor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_race

Funny, I see a few American firsts there.

[Ratamacue]

Clearly Soviets were more than just imitators of German technology,and their rockets were much more powerful and reliable,then those constructed by actual German rocket scientists in USA.Yes, this is quite clearly evidenced by the Saturn V and the N1.

[K0m1t4]

US and SU had a totaly diffrent aproach to building rockets , especialy on the way they vere powered. Soviet rocket engines vere actualy more sophisticated than the US ones.
The US vere relying more on building big engines, while the russians were using an aproach of using multiple smaller (and way more efficient) engines, their failure in moon race was that it was much more complicated to control simultanious ignition and operation of multiple engines than to simply build bigger ones.
As for soviet technical inferiority I'm sure we were all terrified by their inferiority see the link below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staged_combustion_cycle_(rocket)
I believe RD180 is still the only rocket engine in the world with that level of efficiency. Lockheed Martin couldn't wait for the fall of SU to get a couple.

Also a big problem with the soviet space program was that it rellied too heavily on one man, Sergey Korolyov (who was a true genius), if it wasn't for his death in 1966 and his conflict with some of the higher political figures, it is not, at all certain that US would have won the space race.

[Wrangel]

Yes, this is quite clearly evidenced by the Saturn V and the N1.

This is only American success,and Soviet failure (as the entire case of Moon landing).

And since this is probably only really significant American victory over Russians in space,it has to be repeated indefinitely.

And few details about N-1:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N1_rocket


N1 or N-1 was the secret Soviet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union) rocket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket) intended to send Soviet cosmonauts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmonaut) to the Moon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon). It is also known in the west as the G-1e or SL-15. Soviet closed technical name N1 was abbreviation from Russian word 'носитель' ('carrier'). According to some sources, official open name for N1 in case of success intended to be Raskat ('peal' in Russian). It was underfunded, undertested, and started several years after the Saturn V (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V); all four launch attempts failed, and the project was officially cancelled in 1976.

This is interesting:




More interestingly, the advanced engines for the N1F escaped destruction. Although the spacecraft as a whole was unreliable, the NK-33 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NK-33) and NK-43 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NK-43) engines are considered rugged and reliable when used as a standalone unit. About 150 engines survived, and in the mid-1990s, Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) sold 36 engines to Aerojet General (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerojet_General) for $ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USD)1.1 million each. This company also acquired a license for the production of new engines.
Supplied through Aerojet, three of the engines were incorporated into Japanese rockets J-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-1) and J-2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GX). The US company Kistler Aerospace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kistler_Aerospace) continues to work on incorporating these engines into a new rocket design, with which Kistler seeks to eventually offer commercial launch services. In Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia), N1 engines were not used again until 2004, when the remaining 70 or so engines were incorporated into a new rocket design. As of 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_of_2005), the project has been frozen due to the lack of funding.


So,both Americans and Japanese bought 'inferior' Russian technology from N-1,and incorporated into their rockets..probably because of its 'inferiority'...:)

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/nk33_n1_a_2.jpg

[domokun]

From the AK-47 to the RPG-2, from the Tu-4 to the MiG-15 was just cheap copy and reverse...

Soviets did lot more than mere copies. First AK-47 is not copy of Stg-44, search from google and learn. TU-4 is carbon copy of B-29, yes, and some other stuff is also reverse engineered copies. Soviets were ahead of west in several fields of research, fluid dynamics is one good example, look at Soviet submarines and aircrafts. West was ahead in more different fields, reason was simple: stronger economy. If west was ahead every thing, why was west surprised when they found out about R-73's abilities and why license made RD-170's and RD-180's are most common rocket engines used by NASA today.


Yes, this is quite clearly evidenced by the Saturn V and the N1.

You too can read that bolded part above. N1 was developed with lot smaller budget than Saturn V, it wasn't as great priority project for Soviets as it was for AMericans.


Both American and Soviet took lot of influence from V-2 projects. Americans had major blunder in Operation Paperclip as they got access to Von Braun and other high profile scientists. Soviets got mostly rocket construction engineers, not researchers like American. Both were lagging behind in ballistic missile tech when compared to Germans. Both used captured V-2's as starting point for their own research.

And then I could add that Robert Goddard had done most of what Germans did before Germans got there. Difference is that von Braun and buddies had greater resources than Goddard.

In late 50's Soviets were clearly ahead of Americans, much of this was due to Sergei Korolev... boss and engine of Soviet space and missile research.

[KuroiRyu]

Soviets did lot more than mere copies. First AK-47 is not copy of Stg-44, search from google and learn. TU-4 is carbon copy of B-29, yes, and some other stuff is also reverse engineered copies. West was ahead in more different fields, reason was simple: stronger economy.

The AK-47 was not a copy of the Stg-44 but was A LOT influenced by it...The Soviet aereospace industry post 1945 could develop itself almost thanks to the German. I'm not speaking about West in general, I'm speaking about Germany.

The stronger economy was not the main reason why the German were so forward, from 1943 the German economy was in critic conditions, only better than the Japanese one, thanks to the daily allied bombardements.

U.S. and Soviet could procede and develop all what they could did until 1945.

The German were forward, end of the story.

[domokun]

The AK-47 was not a copy of the Stg-44 but was A LOT influenced by it...The Soviet aereospace industry post 1945 could develop itself almost thanks to the German. I'm not speaking about West in general, I'm speaking about Germany.

The stronger economy was not the main reason why the German were so forward, from 1943 the German economy was in critic conditions, only better than the Japanese one, thanks to the daily allied bombardements.

U.S. and Soviet could procede and develop all what they could did until 1945.

The German were forward, end of the story.

Both west and Soviet had access to what Germans had developed and both sides did take advantage of that. In pretty much all fields of military development. Germans ahead of both west and Soviets in many fields, they had used their resources to develop different stuff.

Japanese were ahead certain naval technologies like torpedoes. Like Germans Japanese were against whole lot strategically advanced enemies, who had massive economic and R&D resources when compared with Axis.

Both allies and axis used intelligence and first hand experiences to get influence from opponents technological abilities. Same thing is true for Soviets and west after WWII.

Reason why Germans were ahead in Rocketry and jets was simple, they had put more resources in those development projects than anyone else. They had good scientists and engineers on those fields and need for 'em. One good example is Finnish artillery fire direction methods, Finland didn't have as good resources for to use of arty in more inefficient means, sometimes necessity dictates the development.

[Annihilator9112]

This thread has just confirmed it 100%, Germans are the smartest people on the planet. Best technology since 1940's

haha :) Many have gone to other countries and those other countries got the credit for the inventions and other stuff.

[Hutz]

Nice pissing contest you folks have here.

[CG51]

Nice pissing contest you folks have here.

This is daily and it's frequency is increasing. A few percentage are interseting but mostly it's the same crew that like to rewrite history.

[GazB]

The AK-47 was not a copy of the Stg-44 but was A LOT influenced by it...

The germans didn't have a decent semi auto rifle till they captured Tokarev rifles and copied the gas system design. The Stg-44 has many similarities with the Fedorov Avtomat that entered service in 1916. The great improvement of the Stg-44 was the sheet metal construction, which the successful models of the AK-47 didn't use. They were milled from blocks of metal like the FN FAL. More expensive but more durable.

The only convincing cases of direct copying I have seen evidence of is the Sidewinder missile... because its design was so different from Russian designs. The Russian AAMs were complex, whereas the Sidewinder was simple and based on development blocks... ie from nose you had the seeker section then the forward control section then the warhead , then the rocket motor, then the tail fins. Each piece can be made seperately and assembled on a production line easily. Early Soviet missiles were not like that so when building a missile the guys working on the seekers had it first, then the warhead was added, but both jobs couldn't be done at the same time like with the sidewinder. It was a fundamental change in design and production and the time it would take to change to that method meant that in the mean time they just copied the basic layout. The rolleron gyros were copied because they were much smaller than Soviet gyros, but the seeker was Soviet because it was better than the US model fitted. The rocket motor was also Russian. The control actuators were copies of the US models too.

The other copy was the Tu-4, but even that had Russian engines and Russian 20mm cannon in the gun turrets instead of US engines and 50 cal guns.

[Kilgor]

There was also a number of soviet jet engines copied from British and German designs and computer cpu's.

[Basillicus]

The Soviets did have some advanced tech but it seems that it was the military that got most of the benefit out of it while the people were living in pretty simple conditions. Advanced weaponry and space program are good for showing off but they don't do much good in the real life if there isn't industry that can bring this tech to the people.

[ThatHistoryDude]

This whole post is backward and strange. It would be like me posting up excerpts from this article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Goddard_(scientist)

And going look see how advanced the US was we did not really benefit from German technology at all.

There is a giant leap from small models like Goddard's to the A-4 everyone but the Londoners who were on the receiving end of them benefited from the work von Braun and his crew did.

I mean its not like the soviets didn't round up Helmut Gröttrup and about 500 other rocket scientists and move them to Podlipki, Russia in 1946.

If you want a more balanced look at what the Germans may or may not have contributed to the Russian space program take a look here.

http://www.airspacemag.com/space-exploration/cit-zak.html?c=y&page=1

[JoaMei]

This Photo is a Fake, its so obvious everybody can see it on the first look.

http://www.mentallandscape.com/G_06.jpg

[GazB]

There was also a number of soviet jet engines copied from British and German designs and computer cpu's.

Every technology is based on what came before it. The Panther is basically a German T-34, the Germans adopted the Soviet 120mm mortar into service after coming up against it in Soviet service in WWII.

[Lamer]

As far as the space race goes- USA didnt win it, soviets did. Yes the moon landings were a great feat, but so were the other 100 things that the USSR did first, so that puts the score 100:1 . Now especially in US documentaries about the spce race, you get the statement, "USA was behind but in the end they won" ...how is that? Its like if there was a football match, and one team was ahead 10:0 and in the end the other team scored one goal for 10:1 and the other team won :cantbeli:

[Kilgor]

As far as the space race goes- USA didnt win it, soviets did. Yes the moon landings were a great feat, but so were the other 100 things that the USSR did first, so that puts the score 100:1 . Now especially in US documentaries about the spce race, you get the statement, "USA was behind but in the end they won" ...how is that? Its like if there was a football match, and one team was ahead 10:0 and in the end the other team scored one goal for 10:1 and the other team won :cantbeli:

If there was a space race, you tell me where the finishing line was.


Every technology is based on what came before it. The Panther is basically a German T-34, the Germans adopted the Soviet 120mm mortar into service after coming up against it in Soviet service in WWII.

That really has nothing to do with copies of things like jet engines and computer chips.

[Xaito]

http://www.vectorsite.net/avkomet.html <-number 1.
Soviet rocket fighter - flown in 1942 (look mom... no Germans! ;) )- yes Germany was a couple years ahead - but don't try to act down Soviet Union's own achievements.
Some act like Germany was some kind of philosopher's stone. :)

[Kaapeli]

As far as the space race goes- USA didnt win it, soviets did. Yes the moon landings were a great feat, but so were the other 100 things that the USSR did first, so that puts the score 100:1 . Now especially in US documentaries about the spce race, you get the statement, "USA was behind but in the end they won" ...how is that? Its like if there was a football match, and one team was ahead 10:0 and in the end the other team scored one goal for 10:1 and the other team won :cantbeli:

If you look at the "Space Race timeline" in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Race#Timeline_.281957-1975.29) you see that's it's far from 100:1. Actually it's pretty much 50/50.
It's debatable who won if anyone. Soviets considered the first manned missions as a victory when the USA thinks that first man on the moon was the winning archievement.

I personally never though that the Space Race had a winner like the Cold War clearly did.

[Amethystfretchen]

There is a popular belief in the west,and US in particular,that rocket development and space research in Soviet Union and in USA (after WW2) is totally due to German technology and scientists captured near the end of that war.
This belief is only partially true,mostly in the US case where former German scientist Wernher Von Braun had become leader of US space program.


Early Russian Ballistic Missiles

http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/r/r1tor5.jpg
R-1 to R-5: Competing Russian and German rocket designs conceived in the Soviet Union from 1946 to 1953.

The true configuration of the world's first ICBM, the R-7, was revealed only in 1967, ten years after its first test. The Soviet N1 moon rocket was only revealed in 1990, 21 years after its first launch. At the same time, other Russian ballistic missiles were routinely paraded before the cameras of the world press even before they went into service. The extraordinary sensitivity of the Soviet leadership over these Korolev designs may be traced to the fact that they derived from the work of the Groettrup German rocket engineering team.

Official Soviet accounts and memoirs gloss over the German contribution to early Soviet rocketry. In fact, during the early days of Soviet long-range rocketry, competitive design competitions were held between Korolev and the German team. In each case the German design was found superior by state commissions. It was German aerodynamic analysis that came up with the unique conical rocket configuration adopted by Korolev for the R-7 and N-1. It was the German team that suggested fundamental features adopted by Korolev in the R-7 - integral propellant tanks, placement of the liquid oxygen tank forward of the fuel tank. German guidance teams developed a radio-corrected guidance technique that was adopted for the first generation of Soviet ballistic missiles. German-developed engines were used by Glushko as the basis for those of the same missiles. In some cases, German drawings were used without modification, the German text begin erased and Russian text substituted.

The extent of the reliance on the German team has only become apparent in recent years through the work of Dr Olaf Przybilski of the Technical University at Dresden. Dr Przybilski has done new fundamental research with the survivors of the German team and in Soviet archives. The story told in these new documents is significantly different from Soviet accounts.
...
When the time came for the N1 rocket in the late 1950's, Korolev again turned to the German work. The N1 was the direct aerodynamic descendent of the Groettrup G-2 and G-4. It incorporated all of the essential features of Groettrup's designs - the 85 degree slope cone, topped by a cylindrical forebody and a sharply spiked nose, and the use of upper stages of the conical vehicle as smaller launch vehicles (the R-12B in the case of the R-12A; N11 and N111 in the case of the N1). It was only the limitations of Soviet manufacturing technology that forced Korolev to adopt the spherical tank design of the N1 in place of the integral common-bulkhead tanks of the Groettrup vehicles.

The German team was aware of none of this. Members of the team began to be repatriated on 3 April 1951. By October 1951 they were completely isolated and work basically stopped. The last member of the group returned to Germany on 22 November 1953. Groettrup made it to West Germany and was debriefed by the CIA in 1957, but provided some deliberately false information and downplayed the importance of the German work in order to avoid Russian retribution. The full story did not come out until the end of the century.

read all here: -> http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/earsiles.htm


enjoy more:
http://www.astronautix.com/

[Amethystfretchen]

And here the latest to spice up over-the-edge/conspiracy theories:
(german language only)

http://shop.strato.de/WebRoot/Store2/Shops/61075500/48A4/560B/2BD8/95E3/B1B8/C0A8/2935/DB86/b_mitdembalkenkreuzzummond.jpg

-> http://www.amazon.de/Mit-dem-Balkenkreuz-zum-Mond/dp/3938516674

[Wrangel]

enjoy more:
http://www.astronautix.com/


From your own link,we have a claim from a researcher in Germany that first Soviet ICBM was due to German design.
This is off course quite a neutral and unbiased source...:)

Lets suppose that claim is correct.

It is strange,however total difference in design of rockets in US,that were designed by actual German rocket scientists,like Von Braun and Soviet rockets.

Redstone rocket (designed by Von Braun),that sent first American in space:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Redstone_trainer_05_59.jpg/480px-Redstone_trainer_05_59.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Redstone_trainer_05_59.jpg)


Soviet R-7 rocket:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/SS6_Sapwood_launch_vehicle.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SS6_Sapwood_launch_vehicle.png)

Identical design was used in Vostok rockets.

Compare to:


Original German designed V-2:





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Fus%C3%A9e_V2.jpg/300px-Fus%C3%A9e_V2.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Fus%C3%A9e_V2.jpg)

American rocket is clearly identical with original German design,while Soviet is quite different.
Saturn V is also similar with original German pattern,unlike Soviet ones.
This is clear implication,that Soviet design have unique features,different from those made by Germans in US.

Indeed first Soviet ballistic missile R-1 was copy of V-2,and its also true that Soviets used German experience in rocketry to boost their own program.
However,and this was my point when i started this thread.. to show that Soviets had great experience in liquid fueled rocket design before WW 2,and that program was ahead of Germans before ww2.

Until Saturn V rocket,US together with greatest German rocket scientist of all time (Von Braun) was able only to make weaker rockets then Soviets,despite clear economical advantages.

Knowledge that Korolev and team had before WW2 obviously helped that.


Problem is that this does not fit in Hollywood ethnic stereotypes where only western people can make revolutionary technology,while others are incapable or imitators.



And here the latest to spice up over-the-edge/conspiracy theories:
(german language only)

Conspiracy theories are conspiracy theories only when they are about American contribution (like Moon landing).

When Russians are concerned,then conspiracy theories are 'facts'.


P.S


This Photo is a Fake, its so obvious everybody can see it on the first look.

http://www.mentallandscape.com/G_06.jpg





Then this photo is fake as well,its so obvious everybody can see it on the first look:


http://www.conspiracy-theories-hoax.com/images/flag.jpg


roflrofl

[Amethystfretchen]

from same link above:

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/images/G-5.jpg
-> http://www.astronautix.com/articles/rustions.htm

The conspiracy-theory up-to-date is, that both US and CCCP could only bring their space-programms 'up and on the moon', with german help and technology. All the necessary technological planning (the whole f%§€@$* tech-tree !!!!11: - even space-suits, food for astro-/kosmonauts, medical research for deep-space flight, etc.pp.) was ready on german drawing boards in 1945 and just picked up.

And that is the 'real reason' there was a 'race to the moon'. They both had gotten the inventors + the tech-blueprint to bring man on the moon (mars? ...) from the Nazis and needed to proof before another, who could really do it 'for real'. So the "finish-line" of this race whould be defined by actual doing the realisation/materialisation of the whole extend of german pre-research.

But this technology was never understud till the exact last detail. There was no real technological step in human space-tech since Apollo. They could (re)produce it with german help, but never really go on - and beyond...

[GazB]

The Soviets were already developing rocket technologies long before they ever got their hands on any German booty. From aircraft launched rockets, to ground launched artillery rockets, the Soviets were the first protagonists of the rocket as a battlefield artillery support weapon. Their first rockets mounted on aircraft were intended for use against enemy bombers, but they adapted their use for ground targets quickly enough.

[Kilgor]

The Soviets were already developing rocket technologies long before they ever got their hands on any German booty. From aircraft launched rockets, to ground launched artillery rockets, the Soviets were the first protagonists of the rocket as a battlefield artillery support weapon. Their first rockets mounted on aircraft were intended for use against enemy bombers, but they adapted their use for ground targets quickly enough.

I think you would find the Chinese were, not Russians as the rocket for a battlefield weapon.

[Amethystfretchen]

Some more article about the Gröttrup-team:

-> http://www.scientistsandfriends.com/rockets2.html

[Wrangel]

from same link above:

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/%7Ejs/images/G-5.jpg
-> http://www.astronautix.com/articles/rustions.htm

The conspiracy-theory up-to-date is, that both US and CCCP could only bring their space-programms 'up and on the moon', with german help and technology. All the necessary technological planning (the whole f%§€@$* tech-tree !!!!11: - even space-suits, food for astro-/kosmonauts, medical research for deep-space flight, etc.pp.) was ready on german drawing boards in 1945 and just picked up.

And that is the 'real reason' there was a 'race to the moon'. They both had gotten the inventors + the tech-blueprint to bring man on the moon (mars? ...) from the Nazis and needed to proof before another, who could really do it 'for real'. So the "finish-line" of this race whould be defined by actual doing the realisation/materialisation of the whole extend of german pre-research.

But this technology was never understud till the exact last detail. There was no real technological step in human space-tech since Apollo. They could (re)produce it with german help, but never really go on - and beyond...

I can understand to some point Nazi fetishism,due to Hollywood movies,and computer games like "Escape From Castle Wolfenstein" and mystification of German technology,but entire idea of space exploration was originally Russian,not German idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Tsiolkovsky



Tsiolkovsky theorized many aspects of space travel and rocket propulsion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacecraft_propulsion). He is considered the father of human spaceflight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_spaceflight) and the first man to conceive the space elevator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator), becoming inspired in 1895 by the newly-constructed Eiffel Tower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eiffel_Tower) in Paris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris).
He was also an adherent of philosopher Nikolai Fyodorov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Fyodorovich_Fyodorov), and believed that colonizing space would lead to the perfection of the human race, with immortality and a carefree existence.

His most important work, published in 1903, was "Исследование мировых пространств реактивными приборами" (The Exploration of Cosmic Space by Means of Reaction Devices),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Tsiolkovsky#cite_note-1) arguably the first academic treatise on rocketry. Tsiolkovsky calculated that the horizontal speed required for a minimal orbit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit) around the Earth is 8 km (5 miles)/second and that this could be achieved by means of a multistage rocket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multistage_rocket) fueled by liquid oxygen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_oxygen) and liquid hydrogen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_hydrogen).In WW2,German made V-2,which purpose was solely military.
Hitler and Nazis didn't made any plans for space exploration.

Hitler didn't care less for jet propulsion,nor for rocketry until when German defeat was obvious,and this is mostly due to desperation.
Soviet Union was interested in rocketry before the war,and formed a group that was financed by the state,as serious research project for both scientific and military purposes.

In US case,space research was lead by German (Von Braun),and now because of that some people want to project identical stereotype to Russians.
Soviet space program was lead by Korolev,who was also a leading rocket scientist before WW2.



Some more article about the Gröttrup-team:

-> http://www.scientistsandfriends.com/rockets2.html


So here we have a anegdotal evidence,from the wife of Helmut Gröttrup...:roll:

Another objective and unbiased source.

Lets look at this claim:


On the left is Soyuz being prepared for launch and on the right is Vostok 1 which was used to launch Sputnik. In 1945 Russia did not have the technology to accomplish these great feats but with the help of the hard working German Specialists they accomplished this in a period of less than 12 years. They were well ahead in the Space Race and the US had to work hard to catch up.

Indeed Soviet Union didn't have technology to accomplish in 40-es to launch Sputnik.But Sputnik was launched in 50-es.

And clearly Germans didn't have any space technology in 40-es.

So they had 'hard working German specialists'....:)
Well since Slavs are inferior,they needed help from 'master race'.

Off course,this is mostly due to fact that Americans didn't have their own rocket scientists,but Germans,and now they try do deny achievements of Russians through unsupported claims and anecdotal evidence.

But here is about Sputnik:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_1


The history of the Sputnik 1 project dates back to 27 May (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_27) 1954 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954), when Sergei Korolev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Korolev) addressed Dmitry Ustinov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Ustinov), then Minister of Defense Industries, proposing the development of an artificial satellite of the Earth and forwarding him a report by Mikhail Tikhonravov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Klavdievich_Tikhonravov) with an overview of similar projects abroad.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_1#cite_note-4) Tikhonravov emphasized that an artificial satellite is an inevitable stage in the development of rocket equipment, after which interplanetary communication would become possible.And who was designer:


The chief constructor of Sputnik 1 at OKB-1 was M.S.Khomyakov.[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_1#cite_note-NK2002-26) The satellite was a 585 mm (23 in) diameter sphere, assembled from two hemispheres which were hermetically sealed using o-rings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-ring) and connected using 36 bolts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolted_joint).[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_1#cite_note-27) The hemispheres, covered with a highly polished 1mm-thick heat shield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_shield)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_1#cite_note-NK97-28) made of aluminium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium)-magnesium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium)-titanium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium) AMG6T (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=AMG6T&action=edit&redlink=1) ("AMG" is an abbreviation for "aluminium-magnesium" and "T" stands for "titanium", the alloy contains 6% of magnesium and 0.2% of titanium[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_1#cite_note-29)) alloy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloy), were 2mm-thick.[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_1#cite_note-30) The satellite carried two antennas designed by the Antenna Laboratory of OKB-1 led by M.V.Krayushkin.On other hand we have claim,from wife of mediocre German rocket scientist,who was technical adviser for Soviets about V-2 technology,that was constructed for bombing,not space exploration.
German scientists were indeed part of team for construction of SS-1 missile,which was virtual copy of V-2,but thats about it.
When Soviets managed to deal V-2 technology,they have gone further,without any need for Germans.

Difference in design made by Germans in USA,which was similar to German V-2,and Soviet rockets designed by Korolev is quite clear,and shows different technical school.

But to claim that because Russians copied and learned from German V-2 technology (which was often unreliable),that they copied technology they developed later,speaks not about Russians,but about persons who wrote such articles.

After all my main point was,although Russians used German technology immediately after WW2,later development was due to their previous experience in rocketry,not Germans...while some people want to deny that Russians done even that.

P.S


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation


Tsiolkovsky's rocket equation, or ideal rocket equation is named after Konstantin Tsiolkovsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Tsiolkovsky), who independently derived it and published in his 1903 work[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation#cite_note-0), considers the principle of a rocket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket): a device that can apply an acceleration to itself (a thrust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust)) by expelling part of its mass with high speed in the opposite direction, due to the conservation of momentum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum).
The equation relates the delta-v (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_v#Astrodynamics) with the effective exhaust velocity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_impulse#Rocketry_-_specific_impulse_as_a_speed_.28effective_exhaust_velocity.29) and the initial mass and the end mass of a rocket.
For any such maneuver (or journey involving a number of such maneuvers):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/a/4/6/a4681234d78a32e0e9fad52039baffb4.png
where:
m0 is the initial total mass, including propellant, in kg (or lb)m1 is the final total mass in kg (or lb)ve is the effective exhaust velocity in m/s or (ft/s) or http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/2/5/3/253cfeab2f7e5ae402952161d71e1af6.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/math/0/9/0/090f92439b671c9f0666f3d1d13dd30c.png is the delta-v in m/s (or ft/s)
This is interesting:



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Chertrg_Tsiolkovsky.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Chertrg_Tsiolkovsky.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Chertrg_Tsiolkovsky.jpg)
Draft first space ship by
Konstantin Tsiolkovsky


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ee/Vostok.jpg/180px-Vostok.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vostok.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vostok.jpg)
Vostok Spacecraft


Clearly a 'German' design....rofl

[chaseballs]

http://blog.tmcnet.com/blog/tom-keating/image-files/firefox-clint-eastwood-movie-poster.jpg

the soviets were way ahead on stealth and thought-controlled weapons though. good thing we stole it

[DDD]

I think you would find the Chinese were, not Russians as the rocket for a battlefield weapon.

I doubt that Chinese has something useful. Really there was another more recent and better documented period in XIX century when rockets were first actively used at least Brits and Russians and pretty soon deprecated as it was found that they are worse than regular artillery.

Pre-WWII technologies are limited by the Leningrad GDL (and later Moskow RNII) - RS-82 and M-13 and German Nebelwerfer. If one will visit GDL museum he could see that no one invest a lot into development. So as a side effect the rockets are damn cheap and could be built anywhere. ;-) The Nebelwerfer rockets are more progressive (with stabilisation via rotation), but more expensive as well. Another drawback is that they were used as regular artillery, so really design start working after WWII, when control of dispersion became possible. Actually they are practically not related to the space program at all, it is completely different set of problems.

[DonPMitchell]

Hi, I came across your forum while googling for some stuff. I think someone linked to my website about GIRD. That was part of this site: http://www.mentallandscape.com/V_Venus.htm

Also, if you are intersted in the BI rocket plane, I wrote the wikipedia article on that last week: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereznyak-Isayev_BI-1

[Kilgor]

Hitler didn't care less for jet propulsion,nor for rocketry until when German defeat was obvious,and this is mostly due to desperation.
Soviet Union was interested in rocketry before the war,and formed a group that was financed by the state,as serious research project for both scientific and military purposes.
l

You have NO idea of what your talking about.

Von Braun was working on his creative doctorate when the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP, or Nazi party) took over Germany, and rocketry almost immediately became a national agenda. An artillery captain, Walter Dornberger, arranged an Ordnance Department research grant for him, and von Braun then worked next to Dornberger's existing solid-fuel rocket test site at Kummersdorf. He was awarded a doctorate in physics[7] (aerospace engineering) on July 27, 1934 from the University of Berlin for a thesis titled About Combustion Tests; his doctoral advisor was Erich Schumann.[8] However, this thesis was only the public part of von Braun's work. His actual full thesis, Construction, Theoretical, and Experimental Solution to the Problem of the Liquid Propellant Rocket (dated April 16, 1934) was kept classified by the army, and was not published until 1960.[9] By the end of 1934, his group had successfully launched two rockets that rose to heights of 2.2 and 3.5 kilometers.

From wiki

The Nazi's were very keen on VB and his rocketry.

[DonPMitchell]

Pre-war work on rocketry in the USSR was fairly impressive, but in the late 1930s, Germany started throwing serious human and financial resources at the problem, while the Soviet Union started arresting and shooting its top rocket scientists in Stalin's purges. Korolev was arrested and was lucky to have survived.

Olaf Przybilski's has claimed that Germans in Russia invented many key aspects of their engine and rocket designs. Other historians (e.g., Asif Siddiqi) don't believe him, and neither do I. His work is based entirely on the testimony of one man he interviewed before his death. There are some serious problems with his story:

1. The engine and fuel injector designs he attributes to Germans after the war were invented in the 1930s and early 1940s by Glushko and Isaev (centrifugal injectors, brazed engine construction, etc). Well before the end of the war. Almost every Russian rocket engine has had centrifugal injectors since Glushko's ORM-12 engine in 1932. Isaev started work on his brazed engine construction in 1944, the U-series.

2. These claims of German invention only surfaced after Russia published the technical details of its engines and rockets in the 1980s. Why didn't they surface before, during the extensive questioning of these German rocket scientists from the 1950s and afterwards?

3. America got the top scientists, Russia mostly just got technicians. Why didn't these design concepts appear in American rockets built with the help of von Braun's team? Why were they never mentioned by the Germans working in America? Why did Von Braun use impinging injectors instead of centrifugal? Why did he use "speghetti tube" construction for engine cooling instead of the Russian style of brazed sheet metal construction?

So I am afraid these ideas, which are presented on astronautix.com, represent a nationalistic POV, not objective history. There is no documentary evidence to back them up at all. Przybilski makes statements and draws figures, but cannot tie them to historical documents.

The image of historical development of the R-7 on the astronautix site is fiction. The R-7 was based on theory worked out (and published) by the Keldysh Ballistics Laboratory and by NII-4 the artillary research instititute (where Tikhonravov worked). The design process was sophisticated and well documented. Nobody went back to sketches of the never-built G-4 and said, "Hey, let's just weld some of these together". The Russians actually invented some remarkable ideas on cluster rockets that have never been implemented, because they required pumping fuel between the stages. I can say more about that if anyone is curious.

Before WWII, the Russians knew the theory of rockets very well. They had been building small rockets and rocket planes since 1931. What they wanted to learn from the Germans was how to manufacture large rocket weapon systems. They decided to proceed in steps. First they brought in German experts to teach them exactly how to manufacture the V-2 and Wasserfall rockets. The R-1 was almost a clone of the V-2. The Germans were never allowed to know anything about the later rocket systems (R-2, R-3, R-5, R-7). When R-1 was finished and fully tested, they sent the Germans home in 1949, except for a few engineers (mostly guidance systems experts) who stayed a couple more years. By 1953, there were no German experts in Russia.

Western experts snatched up a lot of these Germans as soon a they reappeared in East Germany, and questioned them extensively. von Braun talks about this in some of his writings. Basically we learned nothing, because they had never seen anything except the R-1.

Przybilski claims that the German drawings of the G-series rockets, were judged superior to Korolev's designs. I know of no historical documents that support that. When the Germans completed their design of the G-4, it was Korolev to came and collected their papers, thanked them, and they never heard another thing about it.

[DonPMitchell]

Sorry to show up and dump so much text on you all. Just wanted to recommend a couple great books. For a history of the German rocket work, look at "The Rocket and the Reich" by Michael Neufeld. A great history of the Soviet program is contained in "Sputnik and the Soviet Space Challenge" by Asif Siddiqi.

In Germany, Dornberger and von Braun were passionate about rockets. Hitler himself was not personally very enthused, but he did fund them nevertheless. In retrospect, the V-2 was not an effective weapon system. It was inaccurate and expensive, vastly inferior to artillary and bombers. Stalin had the same thought, and initially he was not very interested in long-range rockets. Bombers, radar, and anti-aircraft missiles were his priority. But their thinking quickly changed when they realized that a long range rocket could carry a nuclear warhead.

[Panzerfaust99]

Every technology is based on what came before it. The Panther is basically a German T-34, the Germans adopted the Soviet 120mm mortar into service after coming up against it in Soviet service in WWII.No the Panther is not, the Panther was a good tank but it failed to do its job. The Tiger tank was built to over come the T-34, the tiger tank was a good tank, but it took alot of fuel which the Germans ran out of it. That was one of the reasons why Hitler invaded Africa, the other was to stop the British from driving the Italians not only out of Egypt, but towards Tripoli, Hitler decided it was time, once again, to bail his ally out.

[Wrangel]

You have NO idea of what your talking about.

Von Braun was working on his creative doctorate when the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP, or Nazi party) took over Germany, and rocketry almost immediately became a national agenda. An artillery captain, Walter Dornberger, arranged an Ordnance Department research grant for him, and von Braun then worked next to Dornberger's existing solid-fuel rocket test site at Kummersdorf. He was awarded a doctorate in physics[7] (aerospace engineering) on July 27, 1934 from the University of Berlin for a thesis titled About Combustion Tests; his doctoral advisor was Erich Schumann.[8] However, this thesis was only the public part of von Braun's work. His actual full thesis, Construction, Theoretical, and Experimental Solution to the Problem of the Liquid Propellant Rocket (dated April 16, 1934) was kept classified by the army, and was not published until 1960.[9] By the end of 1934, his group had successfully launched two rockets that rose to heights of 2.2 and 3.5 kilometers.

From wiki

The Nazi's were very keen on VB and his rocketry.

I understand American Nazi fetish,but seriously,although Von Braun was respected scientist,funding for his rocket program came after Albert Speer became ministry of armaments in 1942:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Speer


Speer overcame these difficulties by centralizing power over the war economy in himself. Backed by Hitler's enthusiastic support (the dictator stated, "Speer, I'll sign anything that comes from you."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2_rocket


Then Hitler was not particularly impressed by the V2; he pointed out that it was merely an artillery shell with a longer range and much higher cost.

Most Nazi advanced weapons production,happened after they had high losses of conventional weapons,that were unreplaceable,especially when US got involved in war.

[GazB]

No the Panther is not, the Panther was a good tank but it failed to do its job. The Tiger tank was built to over come the T-34, the tiger tank was a good tank, but it took alot of fuel which the Germans ran out of it.

The Panther was a rushed copy of a T-34. It was a German style T-34 copy, but it was a copy none the less. The Tiger was in slow development before the T-34 had been seen on the battlefield as a sort of future tank for when the west pulled its finger out and started to design some good tanks.