Freedom is disappearing in America... what the "liberal" media won't tell you.

[wigon]

Ray McGovern is a Christian and a retired CIA officer...someone deeply knowledgable in how our American government really works. If you can't trust him, who can you trust????

Wigon






consortiumnews.com
Storm Troopers at the RNC
By Ray McGovern
September 8, 2008

Ten days ago, as the nation focused attention on the hurricane nearing the Mississippi delta, another storm was brewing far upstream in St. Paul, Minnesota — a storm far more dangerous, it turned out, but one by and large overlooked by the Fawning Corporate Media (FCM).

When I flew into St. Paul on the evening of Aug. 30, I encountered a din in local media about “preemptive strikes” on those already congregating there to demonstrate against the Iraq war and injustice against the poor in our country.

St. Paul’s Pioneer Press expressed surprise that “despite preemptive police searches” and arrests, a group calling itself “the RNC Welcoming Committee” was still intent on “disrupting the convention.”

A headline screamed, “Preemptive Arrests of Protesters in Twin Cities.” But it was the article’s lead that hit home: “Borrowing from the Bush administration’s ‘preemptive war’ playbook, police agencies in the Twin Cities have made ‘preemptive strikes’ against organizations planning to protest at the Republican National Convention.”

In the following days I was to see, up close and personal, a massive and totally unnecessary display of ruthlessness.

What struck a bell was that this domestic application of the doctrine of “preemption” was totally predictable — indeed, predicted by those courageous enough to speak out before the U.S. “preemptive” attack on Iraq.

Ironically, it was FBI Special Agent Coleen Rowley, living in the St. Paul area, who served warning of precisely that in her hard-hitting Feb. 26, 2003, letter to FBI Director Robert Mueller, three weeks before the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. [NYT, March 6, 2003]
Confronting Mueller on a number of key issues (like “What is the FBI’s evidence with respect to the claimed connection between al-Qaeda and Iraq?”), Rowley warned of the trickle-down effect of “the administration’s new policy of ‘preemptive strikes’”:

“I believe it would be prudent to be on guard against the possibility that the looser ‘preemptive strike’ rationale being applied to situations abroad could migrate back home, fostering a more permissive attitude on the part of law enforcement officers in this country.”
Rowley called Mueller’s attention to the abuses of civil rights that had already occurred since 9/11, and pointedly warned “particular vigilance may be required to head off undue pressure (including subtle encouragement) to detain or ‘round up’ suspects.”

Transforming the Police

While in St. Paul, I got in touch with Rowley, who has been politically active in the Twin City area, and asked for her reaction to St. Paul’s version of preemption. This was hardly her first chance to say I-told-you-so, but she called no attention to her right-on prophesy five-and-a-half years ago.

Shaking her head, Rowley simply bemoaned how easily the artificial stoking of fear had succeeded in causing the “otherwise wonderful community police officers of St. Paul to turn on their own peaceful citizens (the surreal insanity we witnessed during the RNC).”

She added that, once the Feds, the so-called fusion centers, the contractors get into the act, “all the rules go up in smoke.”

The “preemption” began on Friday, Aug. 29, well before the RNC began on Monday, Sept. 1.
An academic doing research on social movement organizations, who for several months has been observing the main protesters — the RNC Welcoming Committee, the Coalition to March on the RNC and End the War, and the Poor People’s Economic Human Rights Campaign — provided this account:

“On Friday evening the space in St. Paul that was being rented by the Welcoming Committee was raided by riot police, who knocked in the door with automatic weapons drawn, forced the 60-70 activists inside onto the floor, handcuffed them, then proceeded to confiscate all the banner-making supplies and movement literature.

“Over the course of several hours the cops interrogated, photographed, ran warrant checks, and eventually, released everyone one by one. Then they closed down the space for a code violation. The next morning a city code inspector arrived and found no basis for closing the space.

“Saturday morning was one of escalation and terror. The Ramsey County Sheriff Department, together with the St. Paul police, Homeland Security, and the FBI raided four private houses. At 8:00 AM, dozens of cops in SWAT gear broke down the door of one house where about a dozen activists were staying. They were awakened with rifle barrels in their faces and forced to lie face down for more than an hour.

“The cops stole all the computers and other electronic devices in the house, and core members of the Welcoming Committee sleeping there were arrested. It being a holiday weekend, those arrested for alleged crimes could not arrive in court until Wednesday, at the earliest. Thus, those trying to organize demonstrations will be in jail for the entire time the RNC is going on. Four other houses were raided and dozens of activists were detained.”
The academic who wrote the report appealed to those concerned over “this enormous police over-kill” to contact the Twin Cities’ mayors and demand an end to the “witch hunt.”
He added, “The people who were arrested were some of the gentlest, most dedicated activists I’ve ever met.” A far cry from the “criminal enterprise” described by notorious Ramsey County Sheriff Bob Fletcher.

Nanette Echols, a resident of St. Paul who had been extending hospitality to the visiting protesters, insisted they had done nothing wrong.

“In the place they raided on Friday night they were showing documentary movies to twenty-somethings in a clean, alcohol-free zone after dinner,” she said.

Caving In to the Feds

The St. Paul City Council? Only one member had the courage to speak out — Councilman Dave Thune, who was particularly enraged that Sheriff Fletcher took action within St. Paul city limits:

“This is not the way to start things off…I’m really ticked off…the city is perfectly capable of taking care of such things…This is all about free speech. It’s what my father fought for in the war. To me this smacks of preemptive strike against free speech.”

Thune objected in particular to Fletcher’s deputies using battering rams to knock down doors, then entering with guns drawn, and forcing people to the ground, as they did on Friday night.

This was the unsettling backdrop as I flew into St. Paul on Saturday evening, to speak at the Masses at St. Joan of Arc Catholic Church on Sunday morning.

On Monday, I joined some 10,000 on a peaceful march from the Capitol to the Berlin wall of fences and to what the old Soviet Union would have called the “organs of public safety” arrayed before the RNC convention hall.

On the fringes there was some property damage and further arrests. What violence there was bore the earmarks of provocation by the likes of Sheriff Fletcher and his Homeland Security, FBI, and, according to one well-sourced report, Blackwater buddies.

That’s right. Agent provocateurs.

Primary targets of the repression were the alternative media, including any and all those who might have a camera to record the brutality — as was successfully done at the RNC in New York four years ago.

The manner in which Amy Goodman and the two producers of “Democracy Now!” were deliberately mistreated was clearly to serve as a warning that the rules had gone up in smoke — the First Amendment be damned.

Tuesday evening, after speaking at the “Free Speech Zone,” a fenced-off area surrounded by the organs of public safety, I joined the Poor People’s march up to the fences before the RNC.

I observed no violence at all; yet, the police/FBI/national guard/and who-knows-who-else decided they needed to clear the streets. My friends and I narrowly escaped being tear-gassed, pepper-sprayed, or worse. It was an overwhelming show of force — not to protect, but to intimidate.

Palin Significance

After speaking at a conference at Concordia University in St. Paul on Wednesday, I was more eager to watch the Republican vice-presidential candidate, Sarah Palin, deliver her acceptance speech than to risk the tear gas and pepper spray.

The way she dissed community organizers was hard to take.


But those things pale in significance, so to speak, compared to the way the governor of Alaska proceeded to ridicule the notion of reading people their rights. I had thought that despite the distance between Alaska and Washington, the reach of the U.S. Constitution and statutes extended that far.

Friends tell me I should not have been surprised. But, really!

After the widespread kidnapping, torture, indefinite imprisonment, and our cowardly Congress’ empowerment of the president to imprison sine die anyone he might designate an “enemy combatant” — after all that...well, it seems to me that reading a person his/her rights takes on more, not less, importance.

Not to mention the massive repression then under way right outside the convention hall.
It was, it is, a scary juxtaposition. The following day Col. Ann Wright and I went to the jail to offer support to the young people who had been brutalized and then released. They had not been read their rights. Many were camped out on the sidewalk, refusing to leave until their friends still inside were also released.

Out of the jail came Jason, a well-built young man of about 20 years, who needed help in walking. We talked to Jason a while, and he showed us the seven, yes seven, taser wounds on his body. One, on his left buttock, had released considerable blood, creating a large stain on his pants.

Resourcefulness

The young protesters had some success in exposing infiltrators in their ranks. During confrontations, members of the Welcoming Committee, in particular, took copious photos of law enforcement officers and then memorized the faces.

This tactic worked like a charm in one of the St. Paul parks, when a man who looked like a protester — dark clothes, backpack, a bit disheveled — walked by.

One of the protesters recognized the man’s face and searched through her camera until she found a photo of the man actually performing the raid on the Welcoming Committee’s headquarters on Friday night.

The young protesters asked the man, and two associates, to leave the park, at which point the three hustled into a nearby unmarked sedan.

The license plate, observed by a Pioneer Press reporter, traced back to the detective unit of the Hennepin County sheriff’s office, according to the county’s Central Mobile Equipment Division.

Protesters later picked two other men out of the day’s planned march — one because he was wearing brand-new tennis shoes. The two left without indicating whether they were with the organs of public safety.

So there is hope. Young people are smarter than old ones. It is a safe bet that in the coming weeks lots of unwelcome photos will be exposing various agents provocateurs, including over-the-hill flat-feet in unmarked cars, as well as young Republicans with unmarked tennis shoes.

If those are the kind of “sources” upon which the police, FBI, etc. have been relying…well, that would be like having Shia reporting on Sunni, or vice versa.

The organs of public safety are probably not quite so dumb as to be unaware that one cannot expect valid “intelligence” from such amateurish antics. More likely, the attitude is that any kind of “intelligence” will do for the purposes of local law enforcement and timid public officials cowed by the Feds.

Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, the publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in inner-city Washington. He is a member of the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).

[Mu-Meson]

But those things pale in significance, so to speak, compared to the way the governor of Alaska proceeded to ridicule the notion of reading people their rights.What speech was he watching?

As for all this nonsense about defending the RNC Welcoming Committees. :cantbeli: Oy Vey!

[Power_serj]

I read the first few paragraphs. This is loaded with BS. Freedom of speech as well as any other freedom ends at the point when you interfer with someone else's freedom. Disrupting the RNC is not a right. We all saw how the protest turned out...it was more of a riot (i.e breaking sh*t) and disruption (i.e disrupting John McCain's speech). Also, they need to make sure they are protected. American politicians are all high value targets and need to be protected, period.

[SBL]

Ray McGovern is a Christian and a retired CIA officer...someone deeply knowledgable in how our American government really works. If you can't trust him, who can you trust????

Wigon




By these criteria, you should be a big fan of the current administration.

[wigon]

By these criteria, you should be a big fan of the current administration.


Not really. I respected Bush Sr. "W"'s Daddy made some wise decisions and was more of an old school conservative. I honstly had little problem with him except for the Panama Invasion (which most Americans forget). Most Americans don't realize that it was condemmed by the U.N. under International Law. Aside from that however, I thought Bush Sr. was not the worst leader in the world.

"W" 's administration however has had a VERY difficult relationship with the CIA, especially with junior officers and field officers. There was a massive exodus of many of them after Cheney and Rummy started micromanaging and pressuring them to give out intel estimates that were in accordance to their policies. Back when I interviewed for the CIA, I was reminded over and over again that the job was explicitly for the purpose of supporting the current foreign policy of whatever administration is in power. That part scared me a bit. That might be why I'm not working for them. To me that is not professional intelligence work or defending national security. That is politics.

So maybe you're right. Really it all depends on which side of the CIA fence a former agency employee falls under. At any rate, read the article and verify the facts for yourself. I already have and they check out. Then ask yourself why the mainstream press did not report these "pre-emptive" arrests and raids on legitimate political protests. Ask yourself again if this is what a true democracy should be doing when we are supposed to be the shining beacon of democracy and freedom for the rest of the world.
I will follow up with more articles on the ongoing civil rights cases that are resulting from these un-constitutional actions by local and federal authorities.

Wigon

[-Church-]

By these criteria, you should be a big fan of the current administration.

It's not because he's a christian, it's because he starred into his eyes and saw his soul. True story.

[wildcat]

here we go again wigon, I dispute your post check this (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0677059/) to prove my point, here is the picture (http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4415/dsc01110ox1.jpg) of what justified the LE raids

[wigon]

here we go again wigon, I dispute your post check this (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0677059/) to prove my point, here is the picture (http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4415/dsc01110ox1.jpg) of what justified the LE raids


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!
RAID THEM RAID THEM RAID THEM!!!!



Nasty!!!
Ok... maybe that would be an exception to the constitution... I think the founding fathers would agree. lol!


Seriously though...check out the facts. This is something that conservatives need to worry about as well. We all need to work towards preserving our right to protest and for free speech even if the mainstream disagrees with a particular non-violent opinion.


By the way, I'm a HUGE Jesse Ventura fan. I'm praying hard that he runs in the next Presidential election.

Wigon

[Eztyga]

American politicians are all high value targets and need to be protected, period.

They are all self-serving wankers intent on building their own empire, thus make great targets, American or not.

Ezy

[wildcat]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!
RAID THEM RAID THEM RAID THEM!!!!



Nasty!!!
Ok... maybe that would be an exception to the constitution... I think the founding fathers would agree. lol!


Seriously though...check out the facts. This is something that conservatives need to worry about as well. We all need to work towards preserving our right to protest and for free speech even if the mainstream disagrees with a particular non-violent opinion.

Wigon

It could of been conspiring to riot, and seen as organized crime. I think these raid probably aimed at radical groups that had other intentions other than protest. They did not crack down on every body.

[wigon]

I read the first few paragraphs. This is loaded with BS. Freedom of speech as well as any other freedom ends at the point when you interfer with someone else's freedom. Disrupting the RNC is not a right. We all saw how the protest turned out...it was more of a riot (i.e breaking sh*t) and disruption (i.e disrupting John McCain's speech). Also, they need to make sure they are protected. American politicians are all high value targets and need to be protected, period.


This is true. However pre-emptive arrests are NOT a right. Peaceful protests are and anyone who does not abide by the laws and seeks to commit crimes (breaking stuff, etc...) shold be arrested. However in many instances "agitators" unknown to any of the protest organizers enter the protest and begin criminal acts (like dammaging property) which is then used by law enforcement as an excuse to begin bashing in skulls.
In this case however, if you read the article, this was not even used. They simply started arresting people before the protests even began and confiscating computers and stuff.
How the hell is that constitutional????

Wigon

[wigon]

It could of been conspiring to riot, and seen as organized crime. I think these raid probably aimed at radical groups that had other intentions other than protest. They did not crack down on every body.


Again... with what evidence? (Oh...I forgot...we must trust big brother with such things...do not question). I guarantee that you will see horrifically expensive (to taxpayers) civil suits come out of this. There must be evidence to suggest that criminal acts are going to be conducted. Such evidence has not emerged and as far as I know all of the protesters were let go after the RNC was over.
I don't think they were worried about wacko mobs...those people showed up anyways and got their skulls beaten in. They were worried about legitimate protesters who might garner media attention. That is a primary concern to RNC organizers as that steals some of the thunder from their show when you have some Iraq War veteran on prime time TV call them a bunch of hyporcrits and traitors to America.


Wigon

[wildcat]

This is true. However pre-emptive arrests are NOT a right. Peaceful protests are and anyone who does not abide by the laws and seeks to commit crimes (breaking stuff, etc...) shold be arrested. However in many instances "agitators" unknown to any of the protest organizers enter the protest and begin criminal acts (like dammaging property) which is then used by law enforcement as an excuse to begin bashing in skulls.
In this case however, if you read the article, this was not even used. They simply started arresting people before the protests even began and confiscating computers and stuff.
How the hell is that constitutional????

Wigon


This article seem to be one sided, and I don't know if I believe these people had intent on a peaceful protest, The LE probably enforcing against extreme groups, which have other intent. But I don't see evidence either way. How were these people raided? It does not say, and the RNC there was some extreme groups there, the LE might be justified in doing so a raid.

[avedis]

OMG its conspiracy MYAN

[wigon]

This article seem to be one sided, and I don't know if I believe these people had intent on a peaceful protest, The LE probably enforcing against extreme groups, which have other intent. But I don't see evidence either way. How were these people raided? It does not say, and the RNC there was some extreme groups there, the LE might be justified in doing so a raid.


I've done some background checking... there are sources but they are liberal. I recommend that you check for yourself from various sources. As I stated, this is not just a danger to anti-Republican protesters. This type of thing is a danger to anyone conservative or liberal who wishes to have their voices heard during a national convention. To be fair, similar tactics were used against protesters durin the DNC.

I'm sickened by the entire way in which such protests are handled. Sometimes these venues are the only time average Americans actually get a word in on prime time media regarding the state of this country. Unfortunately the media usually edits out the smart people and just shows what the dumb-asses say. I've seen this happen MANY times during protests that I've been involved in despite our efforts to have designated speakers. Somehow some idiot not belonging to our group ends up being the "spokesperson" for our group on FOX news.

Wigon

[Solomin]

ugh, everyone, the media, commentators etc, need to shut their traps on the St. Paul and other participating law enforcement departments. There were 818 arrests, last I heard, and everyone here in the cities is talking about how it was overdone and there was too much security. Here is a short list of things reported that I alone managed to hear over the past few days.

1.) 3-4 months ago undercover police infiltrated one of the anarchist groups and arrested some 70-80 of them during the convention. They had plans to kidnap delegates and the equipment to carry it out. Also, this group had planned to cause mayhem and vandalism in Minneapolis hoping all the police were in St. Paul. I could have told them it was a bad idea when I saw over 100 cops in downtown Minneapolis last Monday night doing nothing.
2.) One vehicle belonging to one of the anarchist groups was found with fertilizer in it, apparently it wasn't enough to make a big bomb, but a bomb none the less.
3.) Plenty and plenty of tear gas and smoke munitions.
4.) Code Pink somehow got access to the convention floor.
5.) One of the protesting groups, who had a permit to protest, tried to file lawsuit with the city after claiming the police had cut the power to their sound equipment, when in fact they had not notified or requested power services from the city or public works.
6.) Plenty of vandalism not even near downtown St. Paul by roaming anarchist groups. Yes, this brings an odd picture to mind, street gangs and the sort, but this is what was happening.

Anyways, I don't know the legal aspect of it, but most of the anarchist told police their names were 'John Doe', so I don't know how the hell they put someone to trial. I am guessing those d-bags are going to get let go and they will only fingerprint and investigate the ringleaders.

[wigon]

OMG its conspiracy MYAN


Hahaha...ah the Myan calender conspiracy...nah I'm not that far gone.
Don't worry I won't be chanting "VIVA AZTLAN!!!" LOL! (not yet... lol)
I actually met someone who my friends call "conspiracy theory guy" who managed to combine the 9/11 conspiracies, Jew conspiracies, Illumanti conspiracies, and Mayan calender beliefs all into one giant conspiracy. It was pure insanity but we had to give the guy credit for massive creativity.

:)

Wigon

[SBL]

So maybe you're right. Really it all depends on which side of the CIA fence a former agency employee falls under. At any rate, read the article and verify the facts for yourself. I already have and they check out. Then ask yourself why the mainstream press did not report these "pre-emptive" arrests and raids on legitimate political protests. Ask yourself again if this is what a true democracy should be doing when we are supposed to be the shining beacon of democracy and freedom for the rest of the world.
I will follow up with more articles on the ongoing civil rights cases that are resulting from these un-constitutional actions by local and federal authorities.

Wigon

Well, I have pretty complex views when it comes to things like civil rights and the right to protest and so forth. Principally, I agree with them.
But it's my general feeling that most protesters aren't very serious about what they do-- it's more like a hobby to them, what with the bongos and the face painting, and anarchists, and the tired slogans.
Couple that with the fact that I don't see today's government being all that fundamentally different than what it was, say, 60 years ago.
If people were taking to the streets in droves for something I really felt needed to be addressed, I'd say more power to them, and I reckon I'd be galled by the fact that such practices were being used. Heck, I may even be moved to join them. But being that they're not, I'm not terribly concerned.

[wildcat]

Hahaha...ah the Myan calender conspiracy...nah I'm not that far gone.
Don't worry I won't be chanting "VIVA AZTLAN!!!" LOL! (not yet... lol)
I actually met someone who my friends call "conspiracy theory guy" who managed to combine the 9/11 conspiracies, Jew conspiracies, Illumanti conspiracies, and Mayan calender beliefs all into one giant conspiracy. It was pure insanity but we had to give the guy credit for massive creativity.

:)

Wigon
just noticed your avatar, LOL, you are a good sport.

[avedis]

Hahaha...ah the Myan calender conspiracy...nah I'm not that far gone.
Don't worry I won't be chanting "VIVA AZTLAN!!!" LOL! (not yet... lol)
I actually met someone who my friends call "conspiracy theory guy" who managed to combine the 9/11 conspiracies, Jew conspiracies, Illumanti conspiracies, and Mayan calender beliefs all into one giant conspiracy. It was pure insanity but we had to give the guy credit for massive creativity.

:)

Wigon

haha I dont agree with your views but I appreciate u being a good sport

[wigon]

ugh, everyone, the media, commentators etc, need to shut their traps on the St. Paul and other participating law enforcement departments. There were 818 arrests, last I heard, and everyone here in the cities is talking about how it was overdone and there was too much security. Here is a short list of things reported that I alone managed to hear over the past few days.

1.) 3-4 months ago undercover police infiltrated one of the anarchist groups and arrested some 70-80 of them during the convention. They had plans to kidnap delegates and the equipment to carry it out. Also, this group had planned to cause mayhem and vandalism in Minneapolis hoping all the police were in St. Paul. I could have told them it was a bad idea when I saw over 100 cops in downtown Minneapolis last Monday night doing nothing.
2.) One vehicle belonging to one of the anarchist groups was found with fertilizer in it, apparently it wasn't enough to make a big bomb, but a bomb none the less.
3.) Plenty and plenty of tear gas and smoke munitions.
4.) Code Pink somehow got access to the convention floor.
5.) One of the protesting groups, who had a permit to protest, tried to file lawsuit with the city after claiming the police had cut the power to their sound equipment, when in fact they had not notified or requested power services from the city or public works.
6.) Plenty of vandalism not even near downtown St. Paul by roaming anarchist groups. Yes, this brings an odd picture to mind, street gangs and the sort, but this is what was happening.

Anyways, I don't know the legal aspect of it, but most of the anarchist told police their names were 'John Doe', so I don't know how the hell they put someone to trial. I am guessing those d-bags are going to get let go and they will only fingerprint and investigate the ringleaders.


If ANYONE made a bomb then that is outright terrrorist activities. Their are finger print databases and DNA databases that can help in such efforts not to mention Guantanomo Bay.
This article is from someone who was there and their personal experiences. You can call him a liar if you want but government should not go unquestioned and one should not simply listen to what the local news reports and regard that as absolute truth (when it comes directly from law enforcement statements).
This is where critical thinking is needed and some dedication to follow up on these cases regarding whether civil liberties were abused.
I'm not surprised that non-anarchist, peaceful protest groups were targetted. In Texas, the organization "Food Not Bombs" was named by the FBI as a terrorist organization with no evidence. I've worked with that organization and they are made up of a bunch of vegans who feed vegan food to homeless people. They are the LAST group I would ever associate with terrorists. Non-conformists yes. Outside the range of normative American behavior regarding the rights of the homeless? Yes. Acting as Chirstians are supposed to act? Yes.
Acting in any way or form violently??? NO!

So you must excuse me if I take the statements put out in the media by local and federal law enforcement as highly questionable. Granted yes there were probably quite a few anarchist groups (the bane of all political protests). However to use them as an excuse to crush the civil liberties of others is inexcusable especially during a critical political period as we see now.
With all of the law enforcemnt technology we have, we should have no problems finding names of the actual perpetrators of vandalism and anarchy. Otherwise I toss them up as government paid agitators placed their purposefully to disrupt protests. Ask any protest organizers about "agitators" and they will give you tons of past examples of their experiences with them.
I'm serious. Get on the internet and find some large social activist organization. Call them up and ask them if they've had problems with "agitators" at protests and where they think those agitators came from.


Wigon

[Solomin]

If ANYONE made a bomb then that is outright terrrorist activities. Their are finger print databases and DNA databases that can help in such efforts not to mention Guantanomo Bay.
This article is from someone who was there and their personal experiences. You can call him a liar if you want but government should not go unquestioned and one should not simply listen to what the local news reports and regard that as absolute truth (when it comes directly from law enforcement statements).
This is where critical thinking is needed and some dedication to follow up on these cases regarding whether civil liberties were abused.
I'm not surprised that non-anarchist, peaceful protest groups were targetted. In Texas, the organization "Food Not Bombs" was named by the FBI as a terrorist organization with no evidence. I've worked with that organization and they are made up of a bunch of vegans who feed vegan good to homeless people. They are the LAST group I would ever associate with terrorists. Non-conformists yes. Outside the range of normative American behavior regarding the rights of the homeless? Yes. Acting as Chirstians are supposed to act? Yes.
Acting in any way or form violently??? NO!

So you must excuse me if I take the statements put out in the media by local and federal law enforcement as highly questionable. Granted yes there were probably quite a few anarchist groups (the bane of all political protests). However to use them as an excuse to crush the civil liberties of others is inexcusable especially during a critical political period as we see now.
With all of the law enforcemnt technology we have, we should have no problems finding names of the actual perpetrators of vandalism and anarchy. Otherwise I toss them up as government paid agitators placed their purposefully to disrupt protests. Ask any protest organizers about "agitators" and they will give you tons of past examples of their experiences with them.

Wigon

Dude...I live in Minneapolis, the East side none the less. This happened on the other side of the river. The anarchists didn't make a bomb, but they were engaging in other illegal activities and just happened to be driving around there car with a bunch of fertilizer in the trunk. This list didn't come from one news source, it was from me listening to news, multiple times a day during the RNC. I'm not trying to start an argument about our National civil rights, however I think the author using the RNC as evidence to help show that point is a bad move.

[wigon]

Well, I have pretty complex views when it comes to things like civil rights and the right to protest and so forth. Principally, I agree with them.
But it's my general feeling that most protesters aren't very serious about what they do-- it's more like a hobby to them, what with the bongos and the face painting, and anarchists, and the tired slogans.
Couple that with the fact that I don't see today's government being all that fundamentally different than what it was, say, 60 years ago.
If people were taking to the streets in droves for something I really felt needed to be addressed, I'd say more power to them, and I reckon I'd be galled by the fact that such practices were being used. Heck, I may even be moved to join them. But being that they're not, I'm not terribly concerned.


Ah now we're talking... Actually believe it or not, I do agree with you that the problem of youth protesting because "it's koooool" is a massive problem. During my period of protesting and social organizing, I've definitely seen a massive increase in young people who are clueless and who just want to "F*CK SH*T UP" in their words. I have no compassion for such idiots as they tend to completely destroy the hard work and passion of those of us who are genuinely concerned with democratic grassroots social change.

These days on my campus, most young people are completely apathetic to political issues. They simply don't care.
Honestly these days I don't care if they're conservative or liberal. I just want to see them engaged intelligently with real life issues. But most of them are most interested in playing "Guitar Hero" or some other stupid X-Box 360 or Playstation 3 game.

VERY DEPRESSING!

Those who aren't are kids with alot of anger and seek to express it through the avenue of anarchism when most of them don't even realize what the hell anarchist theory is and the many forms of anarchist theory that exist. I'm not an anarchist myself, but elements of their ideas resonate with Libertarian type ideas and thus I think are worthy of study.

Wigon

[wigon]

Dude...I live in Minneapolis, the East side none the less. This happened on the other side of the river. The anarchists didn't make a bomb, but they were engaging in other illegal activities and just happened to be driving around there car with a bunch of fertilizer in the trunk. This list didn't come from one news source, it was from me listening to news, multiple times a day during the RNC. I'm not trying to start an argument about our National civil rights, however I think the author using the RNC as evidence to help show that point is a bad move.


Point taken. I hope those idiots with the fertilizer bomb spend a nice healthy time in jail or over in Guantanomo next to Mustafa bin Laden for a few years.
Granted local law enforcement was probably freaking out. It's no joke to have this magnitute of pressure put upon a local police department. However, when they start doing pre-emptive arrests, they have to have their evidence in order. At the very least I hope they explain their conduct as I know their job is not easy. For many protest groups wrongly targeted, often a simple apology and explanation is all that is needed.
Nevertheless, these issues I think are important to talk about publicly. It is a healthy expression of democracy that our national media refuses to engage in. You would have thought that everything was peaceful and all roses at the DNC and RNC if you strictly followed the national media.

This is America and I think we have a right to know all sides to such issues. Even those dumb-ass anarchists need to be allowed to talk so we can all hear how stupid they are. (I"ve met them... they hang themselves with their own words).
Unfortunately these wackos have often spoken in the media representing groups I was affiliated with despite nobody ever knowing who the hell they were.... so you might understand why I have no love for such idiots who in protest circles we label as "professional agitators" regardless of what organizaton they come from.

Wigon

[wigon]

just noticed your avatar, LOL, you are a good sport.


LOL! Yeah I saw my new title and thought... "oh what the hell, I'll go along with it." LOL!

Wigon

[Invisigoth]

Just get used to assembling in "Free speech zones" to voice your opinions and you're good to go.

[DS73]

Dude...I live in Minneapolis, the East side none the less. This happened on the other side of the river. The anarchists didn't make a bomb, but they were engaging in other illegal activities and just happened to be driving around there car with a bunch of fertilizer in the trunk. This list didn't come from one news source, it was from me listening to news, multiple times a day during the RNC. I'm not trying to start an argument about our National civil rights, however I think the author using the RNC as evidence to help show that point is a bad move.

I see Wigon never rests.

I read posted article, the claims are amazing. If anything of it was true these "activists" would sleep in a court house demanding justice. Since obviously they don't I doubt that this "eye witness" is accurate with his story.
It is hard to imagine a police doing preemptive arrests without a good provable reason.
After all they do have to fill plenty of paper in a process.

[wigon]

Just get used to assembling in "Free speech zones" to voice your opinions and you're good to go.


My Universities free speech zone was some small corner that few students ever approached. You can imagine how long that zone lasted....
It was basically ignored. AMERICA IS ONE GIANT FREE SPEACH ZONE!
Granted there are certain places where particular behavior is required, however we should not be like China and create highly government sanctioned free speech zones far away from the media and anyone or anything of interest.
This defeats the purpose of true grass roots democracy and freedom.
Shall we create more and more restrictions on any political organization that does not fall along Republican/Democrat party lines????
Should the government order them where they can and can't meet? Are their limits in the size of their organizations????

You see the problems with this. Now I will agree with you that such zones are ok if they are in an area that is close to major political activities and where they are guaranteed press attention. There are some good ways of managing protests and such protest zones are realistic when they are worked out with protest organizers and RNC or DNC organizers.
It's hard work getting a concensus but its not impossible.
The main priority is to insure that everyone (including the RNC and DNC) has the right of freedom speech and is not mollested.
Camping outside the RNC is I think not a big deal. Harrassing people going in or trying to enter and disrupt the RNC is and yes they should be subject to arrest.
But again, that should not be used as an excuse to go all-out and start arresting people at random in their own homes.

Things are changing radically in how such protests are handled and this I believe is the main gist of this article. We need to be aware of this change.

Wigon

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Protesters thrive on getting into confrontations with the cops - sometimes they push too far. Being filmed while being carted off in handcuffs is their bread & butter...so to some extent I'll wager that some of this is people getting exactly what they've asked for. I'm sure the cops cross the line now and then - but they simply don't have the omniscient power to do what's being alleged. If there was anything to these fanciful tales, there'd be more people reporting it than some guy who leads off his credentials by saying he's a Christian. There are people who make money reporting this stuff, and any of this would be a juicy Bush-has-created-a-police-state lead story if true. You can't stick an MP5 into the face of a Cuban kid hiding in a wardrobe closet without somebody getting a picture of it.

[wigon]

I see Wigon never rests.

I read posted article, the claims are amazing. If anything of it was true these "activists" would sleep in a court house demanding justice. Since obviously they don't I doubt that this "eye witness" is accurate with his story.
It is hard to imagine a police doing preemptive arrests without a good provable reason.
After all they do have to fill plenty of paper in a process.


All of this is fairly fresh, but as I find out more about the predictable law suits, I will post more on them.

Wigon

[Popsiq]

here we go again wigon, I dispute your post check this (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0677059/) to prove my point, here is the picture (http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4415/dsc01110ox1.jpg) of what justified the LE raids

Who's Casey Peterson? What does he have to do with this thread. And who are those two gay friends of yours? Trollin' for troopers are we?p-)p-)

[hank]

Tis true, 2 sheds. Great story about what Elian Gonzalez is doing now here (http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4415/dsc01110ox1.jpg).

This bomber guy looks tough. But he's no Casey Peterson (http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4415/dsc01110ox1.jpg).

hank

[wildcat]

Who's Casey Peterson? What does he have to do with this thread. And who are those two gay friends of yours? Trollin' for troopers are we?p-)p-)


this is Casey Peterson (http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/226/01sl7.jpg) here is his rap sheet (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0677059/)

the two gay friends of yours, one of them is this guy hank (http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4415/dsc01110ox1.jpg)and he looking for you.

[wigon]

Protesters thrive on getting into confrontations with the cops - sometimes they push too far. Being filmed while being carted off in handcuffs is their bread & butter...so to some extent I'll wager that some of this is people getting exactly what they've asked for. I'm sure the cops cross the line now and then - but they simply don't have the omniscient power to do what's being alleged. If there was anything to these fanciful tales, there's be more people reporting it than some guy who leads off his credentials by saying he's a Christian. There are people who make money reporting this stuff, and any of this would be a juicy Bush-has-created-a-police-state lead story if true. You can't stick an MP5 into the face of a Cuban kid hiding in a wardrobe closet without somebody getting a picture of it.

I would agree with you if I hadn't experienced it first hand.
You are correct that often such protests are designed to have a certain number of protesters arrested. It is called "civil disobedience" and any legit social protest organization conducts "civil disobedience" training seminars in which they cover the local, state, and federal laws and their rights as protesters. In addition they are taught how to conduct themselves in a non-violent manner when arrested. Amongst some radical young anarchist groups, that is not their priority, however amongst older seasoned political activists it is SOP (standard operating procedure). Nevertheless that has not stopped the federal government from taking highly aggressive action towards radical political organizations going far back in American history until the present day
In Texas, during the 80's the organizaton "Latin American Assistance" was heavily targetted by federal law enforcement with illegal burglary and thefts of only documents pertaining to their organization from their offices.
More recently, the national organization "Anthrax-No" experienced a rash of burglaries and harrassment of key leadership members that included theft of their files. In the case I'm most familiar with in my hometown, it included law enforcement taking an interest in the burlgary and theft because it was done by a professional with a specialized lock picking tool....and again only disks labelled "Anthrax-No" were taken.
I myself recieved several very wierd harrassing phone calls from people claiming to be law enforcement but from untraceable phone numbers.
If you join the "Anthrax-No" news list of military and civilians against the Anthras vaccination program, you will hear many similar stories.
We are not conspiracy theorists and we are not wackos.
We are normal concerned citizens (many of us ex-military) who believe in speaking out against social injustice and abuses of our constitution.

To do so is as American as Apple Pie... (yeah I know lame cliche but I actually like Apple Pie..hmmmm).

Wigon

[Popsiq]

The St. Paul Chief of Police looked like he was getting ready for 'Invasion from Mars' - he even looked like Slim Whitman.

And when they 'preempted' the homeless guy who had a year's worth of 'toities' saved up in jugs he knew that sh*t was headed for some fan somewhere. Made a good foreground for his preemptive press briefing.

Betcha ain't no homeless crapping in private doorways while he's got his baton.woot

[wigon]

The St. Paul Chief of Police looked like he was getting ready for 'Invasion from Mars' - he even looked like Slim Whitman.

And when they 'preempted' the homeless guy who had a year's worth of 'toities' saved up in jugs he knew that sh*t was headed for some fan somewhere. Made a good foreground for his preemptive press briefing.

Betcha ain't no homeless crapping in private doorways while he's got his baton.woot


LOL! That's probably pretty close to the truth. The spotlight was on him and I think he can be forgiven if he made a few mistakes. Nevertheless its a healthy national debate to have over such issues. Hell, homeless people have to poop as well. (Seriously pooping rights for the homeless is a major issue for those involved in working for the homeless).

Wigon

[Popsiq]

this is Casey Peterson (http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/226/01sl7.jpg) here is his rap sheet (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0677059/)

the two gay friends of yours, one of them is this guy hank (http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4415/dsc01110ox1.jpg)and he looking for you.

Betcha you don't have flaming orange hair do ya? Tats or piercing on you gentians? And I'll bet you've never accomplished any cinematographic breakthroughs either - jealous git!

I hope one of the kiddies you like grows up to look like that and comes back to 'hunt' ya.

[wigon]

Betcha you don't have flaming orange hair do ya? Tats or piercing on you gentians? And I'll bet you've never accomplished any cinematographic breakthroughs either - jealous git!

I hope one of the kiddies you like grows up to look like that and comes back to 'hunt' ya.


Uh.... Uhm..... nevermind.. no comment other than: WTF???? QUIT BEING THE QUEER STEREOTYPE!!!!

lol!

Wigon

[Popsiq]

LOL! That's probably pretty close to the truth. The spotlight was on him and I think he can be forgiven if he made a few mistakes. Nevertheless its a healthy national debate to have over such issues. Hell, homeless people have to poop as well. (Seriously pooping rights for the homeless is a major issue for those involved in working for the homeless).

Wigon

I don't think police 'science' has managed to get its kepi around civil disobedience done right. It's frustrating, and they 'get mad' and 'make mistakes'. And often they come off looking like fools - which creates another whole credibility problem when they have to do their real job.:roll:

Like this incident at Montebello Quebec: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S1nHvvkzvA

[Calanen]

In this case however, if you read the article, this was not even used. They simply started arresting people before the protests even began and confiscating computers and stuff.
How the hell is that constitutional????

Wigon


Amendment IV


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


The warrants were issued by law enforcement, on probable cause from agents who had infiltrated the organisation and given testimony under oath in support of the warrants detailing what these organisations were going to do and prompting the raids.

So, it's constitutional.

[Invisigoth]

The warrants were issued by law enforcement, on probable cause from agents who had infiltrated the organisation and given testimony under oath in support of the warrants detailing what these organisations were going to do and prompting the raids.

So, it's constitutional.

Undercover like the Cannucks do? :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S1nHvvkzvA

[LineDoggie]

This is true. However pre-emptive arrests are NOT a right. Peaceful protests are and anyone who does not abide by the laws and seeks to commit crimes (breaking stuff, etc...) shold be arrested. However in many instances "agitators" unknown to any of the protest organizers enter the protest and begin criminal acts (like dammaging property) which is then used by law enforcement as an excuse to begin bashing in skulls.
In this case however, if you read the article, this was not even used. They simply started arresting people before the protests even began and confiscating computers and stuff.
How the hell is that constitutional????

Wigon

Hmmm, Pre-emptive arrest not a right? OK Your saying then that the Society must wait for a Felony to happen before acting?

Well, their goes the Conspiracy Charges against Abortion Clinic Bombers, Mafiaso, Narco Traffickers, Klansmen, Al Qeada operatives, Bloods, Crips, Latin Kings, etc.

Go to any "Indymedia" site and you will see the amount of Conspiracy to commit mayhem right there. These Groups are well Organized at their level of Operations, receive monetary support.

Dont be so Naive man, genuine Protesters who abide by the law are one thing, these Anarchist scum (who are mostly White Middle class brats) just want to Loot, Cause Violence for kicks.

[Macs.]

I don't think police 'science' has managed to get its kepi around civil disobedience done right. It's frustrating, and they 'get mad' and 'make mistakes'. And often they come off looking like fools - which creates another whole credibility problem when they have to do their real job.:roll:

Like this incident at Montebello Quebec: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S1nHvvkzvA

I don't see how they tried to escalate the situation ?

[Behan]

I, for one, am stunned that the CIA and Wigon could not see eye to eye on career opportunities.

[Gunge]

NAAA

NAT'L ASSOC for ADVANCEMENT of ANARCHISTS

[Mr.Flint]

I, for one, am stunned that the CIA and Wigon could not see eye to eye on career opportunities.
You are not the only one :)

[wigon]

I, for one, am stunned that the CIA and Wigon could not see eye to eye on career opportunities.

Believe it or not, not everyone who works for the agency are Republicans. Most are professionals who actually believe in defending the constitution and American national security. However the CIA is not involved in domestic law enforcement. My beef is not so much with the CIA (who have problems but have also reformed quite a bit since the 80's) but rather with the conduct of some FBI officials and some of their policies. In some cases, such criticisms of an intelligence agency may have been enough to deny someone a critical job within such an agency, however the type of work that I want to do involves developing counter-propaganda againt Al-Qaeda. It is relatively low security work with any leaks easily handled by proper dammage control and plausable deniability safe-guards. So in other words I would not require access to any national secrets... oh...and there are NO aliens at Area-21....and the CIA did not kill JFK.
lol!

Wigon