India plans nuclear-armed submarine

[2RHPZ]

India plans nuclear-armed submarine

Washington, DC, Jun. 7 (UPI) -- India plans to build a nuclear ballistic missile submarine and a deep-water naval fleet, Defense News reported Monday.
India's new naval doctrine was adopted in May. It sets India on a course to develop a military capable of fighting an extra-regional adversary - ie, China - and "protecting persons of Indian origin and Indian interest abroad."
India wants to be in a position to police the Indian Ocean, gateway to the oil-rich Arabian Gulf.
"There is a strong case for India to acquire a non-provocative, strategic capability and the most viable platform by all accounts is the submarine," says the 148 page-Indian Maritime Doctrine, a copy of which was obtained by Defense News.
The doctrine takes particular note of China, which has nuclear missile subs and growing ties with Indian Ocean Rim nations such as Bangladesh, Iran, Myanmar, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sri Lanka and Thailand, according to the newspaper.

[oldsoak]

Egad, this might not be a good thing.

[MARINO]

No bad news, and pakistan with new ICBM :(

[ronin2172]

planning is one thing actually doing it is another....nuclear subs and blue water fleets r expensive to build and maintain, i don't kno if it is feasible for india to do this....look at the ton of problems they had/r having with the arjun (over budget and seriously behind schedule). And an MBT is only a fraction as complicated as a nuke boat or an entire bluewater fleet....besides unless china and or pakistan buys a heavy aircraft carrier India really doesn't have a need for either...

[SOG]

lol, that simpsons joke is starting to scare me:

Krusty the Clown: Why don't we start with a joke?
Q: What's the difference between Pakistan and a pancake?
A: I don't know any pancakes that were nuked by India!
(silence)
Krusty: What, too soon?

[GazB]

We are continually told that commie countries are evil and democracies are good. Well India is the largest democracy in the world by population so what is the big deal?

They have already leased Nuclear Subs from the Soviets (Charlie class SSGNs) in the past and are likely to lease a couple of Akulas soon. It is an indigenous project but they will have Russian help as well as personal experience.

[SOG]

We are continually told that commie countries are evil and democracies are good. Well India is the largest democracy in the world by population so what is the big deal?

cold war like tensions with thier next door neighbor. scary. if russia had been next door to the US, scary!

[Flagg]

I have mixed feelings about India's nuclear ambitions.....but I reckon the current environment existing between Pakistan/India and India/China isn't exactly that healthy.

What I mean by that is...with relatively small nuclear arsenals the risk exists that with a substantial intelligence coup a pre-emptive attack could be successful.......making a nuclear "deterrent" not very deterring.

the deployment of ballistic missile subs by India could possibly reduce the likelihood of a conflict going nuclear as the sub-based portion of a nuclear triad is arguably considered to be the least vulnerable......

why do you think the Israelis are so keen on their class of three Dolphin subs(3 being the smallest number allowing for a continuous station keeping deterrent)?

Also, why do you think the US is cosying up to India in recent years?

A nation with a valid nuclear deterrent and the ability to project it is a global player....it's likely India will be sitting at the adult's table in a couple of years

[oldsoak]

My reservation about it is that Pakistan may follow suit - beacuse India has it. I'm not that confident it wont increase tensions further still.

[Flagg]

My reservation about it is that Pakistan may follow suit - beacuse India has it. I'm not that confident it wont increase tensions further still.

Although Pakistan has experience operating diesel/electric submarines......I don't think they are in the same league of capability as India...which has been learning how to effectively operate nuclear powered submarines for a number of years via a lease of Ex-Soviet nuclear subs.

Also.....I suspect Pakistan's economy would not be able to absorb the huge cost associated with such a program without a catastrophic effect on the economy or a massive shift in defense budget expenditure away from it's already out-classed conventional forces.

[oldsoak]

Fair one - but I am afraid that we may end up with the situation where Pakistani defence may be part funded from outside. They may be willing to trade what expertise they have in order to shore up their parity with India.

[Flagg]

Fair one - but I am afraid that we may end up with the situation where Pakistani defence may be part funded from outside. They may be willing to trade what expertise they have in order to shore up their parity with India.

Good point....something that always concerned me was Saudi & possibly Libyan financial support for Pakistan....out of fear that a quid pro quo would result in Pakistani nukes covertly getting into the hands of Saudi and/or Libyan forces.

[oldsoak]

Its also the ultimate control exercised over these things. How can we be sure that some bloke with a bee in his bonnet isnt going to take his country into a war not sanctioned by his government ? The Russians, Chinese, US, France, Uk and Israel make pretty damn sure that no-one can start a nuclear war on their own and the opposition take a measure of comfort in that. Get some popular movement overthrowing a Government and in the chaos how do we know if someone hasnt got the matches and the keys to the powder room ?

[GazB]

Its also the ultimate control exercised over these things. How can we be sure that some bloke with a bee in his bonnet isnt going to take his country into a war not sanctioned by his government ?

So you are suggesting that the Russians, US, Chinese, French, Brits, and Israelis all take good care of their nuclear weapons, but the Indians just pick guys off the street...

To be honest the largest democratic country in the world armed a with a few nukes and a significant economic and military numerical superiority not to mention a much larger population on the one side and a military dictatorship in a country that thought the Taleban was a good idea and you guys are worried about India?


My reservation about it is that Pakistan may follow suit - beacuse India has it. I'm not that confident it wont increase tensions further still.

Pakistans fighters don't even have BVR missiles... what makes you think they'll be getting nuclear power subs let alone nuclear armed and nuclear powered subs any time soon?

[oldsoak]

Firstly, apologies for the use of bold text - its just to illustrate my answers :)




Its also the ultimate control exercised over these things. How can we be sure that some bloke with a bee in his bonnet isnt going to take his country into a war not sanctioned by his government ?

So you are suggesting that the Russians, US, Chinese, French, Brits, and Israelis all take good care of their nuclear weapons, but the Indians just pick guys off the street...

Er no. I was thinking of a Pakistani fundamentalist. The possibility of Musharraf being ousted by a fundamentalist crowd exists. Your idea of rational thought is pretty much mine and some of these guys dont qualify

To be honest the largest democratic country in the world armed a with a few nukes and a significant economic and military numerical superiority not to mention a much larger population on the one side and a military dictatorship in a country that thought the Taleban was a good idea and you guys are worried about India?

Not me. India has always been a betterbet than Pakistan in my eyes.


My reservation about it is that Pakistan may follow suit - beacuse India has it. I'm not that confident it wont increase tensions further still.

Pakistans fighters don't even have BVR missiles... what makes you think they'll be getting nuclear power subs let alone nuclear armed and nuclear powered subs any time soon?

Their ability to aquire technology is not limited by what they currently have. They can either purchase know how or develop it themselves. The Uk launched is first Polaris sub in 1968 - 36 years ago. Funding Pakistan may come from interested parties abroad and we cant regulate that.
What we dont want is to spur them into thinking that they have to match India. . If the Indians put to sea sooner, that will only make Pakistan feel more at risk. Couple that with a regime change, a couple of border clashes and we might see the first use of nukes since 1945. :(

[GazB]

Er no. I was thinking of a Pakistani fundamentalist. The possibility of Musharraf being ousted by a fundamentalist crowd exists. Your idea of rational thought is pretty much mine and some of these guys dont qualify


Wel I agree with that but dont' understand the context. If Musharraf is overthrown I think land based weapons are more likely to be used than sea based ones as the overthrowers would need the loyalty of at least the commander and his deputies on the sub to be able to launch those weapons. Land based missiles one would assume it wouldbe easier to sieze and use.


Their ability to aquire technology is not limited by what they currently have.

Getting is not easy and being able to use effectively is even harder. If a suicidal group got into power then a nuclear war is possible either way... and whether the warheads come from the sea or from land is a little irrelevant. These new subs will reduce the possibility of a Pakistani preemptive strike taking out all of Indias nuclear weapons. Sounds like a normal progression to me.


What we dont want is to spur them into thinking that they have to match India.

I think they pretty much realise they can't.


If the Indians put to sea sooner, that will only make Pakistan feel more at risk. Couple that with a regime change, a couple of border clashes and we might see the first use of nukes since 1945.

I think India is thinking more of China with this escalation, and lets face it this escalation has already taken place all around the world. There were plenty of nutters in the White House and the Kremlin at various times... we were just lucky they didn't both have nuts in them at the same time.

As long as Pakistan knows it would not survive a war with India and India knows it would not survive another full war with Pakistan perhaps that will keep the border disputes from escalating.

[Pandy]

I say let them go at it, be a nice light show in my mind...

Go ahead and spam me... :(

[oldsoak]

I'm still not convince that this is a good move by India. Good for stability in that region that is.
I've got this 'ere 'orrid feeling that Pakistan will not take it lying down and it will either spur them into developing more highly mobile launchers that they can disperse all over the shop or they'll develop sea launched cruise missiles. To develop this, they need money and I'd hate to think who the finaciers might be or what they might want in return. If theres a coup, followed by a period of instability what happens then ? how will India react ?

[Kampfbaer]

India will be a kind of "superpower" in a couple of decades. Their Economy is gearing up and the western nations will be eager to be on good terms with one of the worlds largest markets in the years to come.

As india is a democracy for a couple of decades, i´m not scared by the prospect of India having ICBM-subs and a real blue water navy.

The Indians have as far as I know not much love for radical muslims and therefore might be a valuable ally for the western world in the future.

[oldsoak]

India will be a kind of "superpower" in a couple of decades. Their Economy is gearing up and the western nations will be eager to be on good terms with one of the worlds largest markets in the years to come.

As india is a democracy for a couple of decades, i´m not scared by the prospect of India having ICBM-subs and a real blue water navy.

The Indians have as far as I know not much love for radical muslims and therefore might be a valuable ally for the western world in the future.

India's stabiliity and commitment to democracy is not under question, I'm just concerned that
Pakistan will attempt to follow suit and its not what I would call stable.

[Kampfbaer]

I doubt that Pakistan can afford the huge cost to follow India on this one.

Maybe it would be better if the west would prefer India to China!??

Just an Idea....

[Durandal]

planning is one thing actually doing it is another....nuclear subs and blue water fleets r expensive to build and maintain, i don't kno if it is feasible for india to do this....look at the ton of problems they had/r having with the arjun (over budget and seriously behind schedule). And an MBT is only a fraction as complicated as a nuke boat or an entire bluewater fleet....besides unless china and or pakistan buys a heavy aircraft carrier India really doesn't have a need for either...

Just watch.

In the next decade, India is going to have huge amounts of GNP increase...if they want it they will build it.

[oldsoak]

I doubt that Pakistan can afford the huge cost to follow India on this one.

Maybe it would be better if the west would prefer India to China!??

Just an Idea....
If Pakistan cant afford a Polaris type deterrent, what are their options ? If you were Pakistan and you wanted a doomsday weapon that would give you a means of terrible retribution should India ever use nukes, what would you go for ? - bearing in mind that you fee lthat if it ever gets to that, you wont give damn forthe consequences.

It would be better if the west had no preference between India and China. Let them court you, not the other way around.

[Durandal]

[It would be better if the west had no preference between India and China.

What!?

Come on now...

In fact, the world should make it WELL known they prefer India over China. India actually makes contributions to the world...they are educated int he west, take their knowledge home or work abroad and kickass.

India's economy is also about to boom big time with a huge, younger generation (and large) with a crap load of consumer power. China is going through a weird pseudo-free market phase with little in the way of control over corruption...bad things are going to happen that make the Robber Barons of the late 1800s look like child's play.

Combined these items with the fact that at somepoint, the United States is not going to be everywhere at the same time...including the Indian Ocean. The U.S. was keeping the sea lanes open in that region and the Indians are far more trustworthy than the Chinese. I could think of nothing worse than allowing China access to the oceans witha deep-water Navy. The world WANTS China in the China Sea and nowhere else.

[oldsoak]

Were I the US, I wouldnt encourage any energy hungry superpower growing up close to where I get my oil from :) , not just yet - especially one which will have its own agenda but then I'm an old cynic. India and China will become major players in the Indian ocean and the South China sea - both areas we do business in. It would suit us to be even handed.

[Durandal]

It would suit us to be even handed.

It would suit us to support democracies...opposed to regimes that murder their people by the thousands.

China sucks man, plain and simple. It isn't because they are a bunch of Maoists...its because they rule their population with an iron fist. regardless of how "open, free-market oriented, intellectual property respecting, and [add lie here]" the supposedly have become.

Remember 1989? Tiananmen Square? I lost friends there. Not good man.

http://www.game-revolution.com/games/pc/strategy/republic_tian.jpg

http://expert.cc.purdue.edu/~afrotc/PurdueAFROTC_folder/images/first_fifty_years_images/80ce4.jpg

The worst thing is that it still goes on today...

Crackdown on hte Falun Gong practitioners...

http://www.faluninfo.net/tiananmen/photos/AP_big.jpg

http://www.faluninfo.net/tiananmen/photos/chasing_practitioner_big.jpg

http://www.faluninfo.net/tiananmen/photos/tam8Jan01_20_big.jpg

http://www.faluninfo.net/tiananmen/photos/jpg_TAM_20001213_1_big.htm

I love the culture and some of the people over there, but F*CK, their goddamn government. Most favored nation my ass.

[GazB]

India has actually been ignored by the US as the US always seemed to be more friendly to Pakistan. This was largely due to the fact that India did and does a lot of business with the former SU and now with Russia.

It is Ironic that the US has a better relationship with communist china than it does with now democratic Russia and India, the latter being a democracy for a very long time.

Still 1.5 billion chinese consumers is what the US is interested in, though 1.2 billion Indians are interesting enough for the US to improve ties recently.