Mortar's VS Howitzers

[The Dane]

Will most(more) indirect fire-support be delivered by mortars in the future ?

I'm thinking mainly about the new automonuos 120mm mortarsystems like AMOS, AMS II, NEMO, Cardom etc. and the development of laser and GPS guided rounds like PGMM and IMI FIreball up against 155mm artillery pieces in mecanized and armoured units?

US Army are certainly fund of mortars:

Under the US Army's new modular brigade structure the service will field more mortars. Heavy brigades will be equipped only with the self-propelled Israeli Soltam M121 120 mm mortar.

These are currently mounted in tracked M1064 carriers (M113 series) but sometime in the next decade could be replaced by the Future Combat System non-line-of-sight mortar variant. Infantry brigade combat teams--light, airborne and air assault--will have two 60 mm mortars in each rifle company while battalion mortar platoons will be equipped with four towed Soltam M120 120 mm and four 81 mm mortars.

Infantry battalions will thus operate four 120 mm, four 81 mm and six 60 mm mortars. Under the 'arms room' concept, copied from the 75th Ranger Regiment, light infantry commanders will choose which battalion mortar is most appropriate for a specific mission.

When using an 81 mm mortar a crew will typically deploy with 80 rounds consisting of 56 high explosive (HE), 16 smoke, 4 white illumination and 4 infrared (IR) illumination rounds.

When using a 120 mm mortar the crew will carry 25 HE, seven smoke, two white illumination, two IR illumination rounds and, in the future, five M395 Precision Guided Mortar Munitions (under development by ATK) for a total of 41 rounds.

Stryker Brigade Combat Teams operate the General Dynamics Land System Stryker Mortar Carrier Vehicle version B (MCV-B), of which the first of 241 vehicles was delivered in mid-2005.

The MCVB mounts a 120 mm mortar at the battalion level or an 81 mm mortar at the company level that fire through an open hatch. Each vehicle also carries a second mortar to provide dismounted fire.

The battalion's four MCV-B vehicles each carry an 81 mm mortar while the two vehicles in each rifle company carry a 60 mm mortar. A Stryker battalion has a formidable indirect fire capability with four M120, ten M252 and six M224 mortars.

Will 155mm mainly be used for precision strikes(Excalibur) in the future(when a 120mm can't do the job) ?

[Jippo]

120mm just doesn't have the range to do what 155mm can. They are supplementing each other in different jobs, but definately not replacing each other.

[orionhawk]

also, the Navy's AGS (Advanced Gun System), which is designed specifically for indirect Naval Gunfire Support, is based around 155mm howitzer design.

[deagle]

i think mortars are valuable. howitzers definitely are massive, but in a pinch the mortars carrred by infantry crews provide support in a hurry. there are also times where you don't need the overkill (risk environmental/civilan damage), and the smaller sizes can take of issue.

[The Dane]

I'm not saying that these new mortars will replace 155mm howitzer's. But i think they can reduce the need for 155mm in eg. a mechanized brigade and that 155mm in the future will mainly fire precision ammunition at long ranges. These new mortars will delivere most of the "mass fire" for maneuvresupport. A Cardom(MCV-B) platoon of four can easily delivere 40 rounds per minute and the responstime is very low.

[The Dane]

New NEMO video.
10 rounds per minute out to 10km with standard rounds.

http://www.youtube.com/v/CnlB5mrigyA

[Virus]

Mortars are awesome, artillery sucks.....

[Cobber15-08]

Mortars have advanced a long way over the years, and yes are a very important part of any formation from Section/Squad to Army.
I still believe their will be a place on the battle field for Arty and not just the 155mm guns for a long time to come.
Mortars can give a lot of fire support, and it pleases me to see more mortars being carried in Infantry formations, however they are just as vulnerable as any forward troops
One of my favourtie Mortars was a light mortar used by Brit and Commonwealth infantry during early parts of WW2, often used and aimed by hand/eye without the base plate by just one or two soldiers, who then moved forward with their Ptn/Coy, firing either their mortar and/or rifles.
While sited at times up to Km's behind lines, a Arty Regt can give very high quality support fire esp with the precision fire of the modern and future Guns. They of course are still in a position of being counter bombarded, over run and so on.
A good thread.

[Gunge]

x2 on the good thread

you order, we mortar!
(for grunt mortarmen)
you yell, we shell
(for cannon cockers)

id love to shoot the 81 again

[gaijinsamurai]

i think mortars are valuable. howitzers definitely are massive, but in a pinch the mortars carrred by infantry crews provide support in a hurry. there are also times where you don't need the overkill (risk environmental/civilan damage), and the smaller sizes can take of issue.

Agree. Mortars are one of the infantryman's best assets. Their mobility makes them highly advantagious.

[GazB]

Mortars are generally with units or under their control. Howitzers are often part of a seperate artillery structure and therefore seperate from your direct command. In a small fight you might have artillery assigned directly to you so you have got it exclusively so you can rely on it more than you can rely on airpower. The mortars your units have are always ready to support you. Early little mortars like the old 50mm and smaller mortars used in WWII were pretty much a waste of effort. Their small bombs and lack of range, plus their size and cost meant they were not great weapons. The modern underbarrel 40mm is a much better compromise being lighter, smaller and cheaper and not requiring a "team". 60mm to 82mm weapons can be operated easily by a small team and have good range and a reasonable bomb weight. The 120mm mortar has a much more effective bomb weight at about 16kgs or so compared to the 4-6kg weight of the average 82mm bomb. The problem is that the 120mm is a heavy piece that needs a lot of man power and a vehicle to tow it or mount it on. Larger mortars are used too, the Soviets had a 160mm mortar in service in mountain units where its 40kg bombs were very effective and its steep plunging fire allowed it to fire over hills into steep valleys. The Soviets also still use the 240mm mortar with its 130kg bomb. AFAIK they have guided bombs for the 120mm and 240mm weapons, and extended range rocket assisted and even nuclear bombs for the 240mm weapon.

Modern howitzers tend to be more gun like today than older weapons. During WWII there was a clear dividing line where a gun had a single propellent case and a long barrel and could not elevate above 30-40 degrees. The Howitzer had a short barrel, could elevate up to about 70-80 degrees and had a bag type propellent system where 3-4 bags were used for max range targets and 1-2 bags were used for closer targets. Guns had longer range and high velocity.

Today howitzers have longer barrels and guns can have a wide elevation envelope and can have variable charge options.

At the end of the day the differences between a mortar and a howitzer is the range and who operates it.

[Schpetzka]

Let's not forget the high angle of fire for mortars makes them more useful in cities and for firing into trenches and fortifications, reverse slope defenses and so on. Mortars can engage what artillery cannot.

[JRT]

I'm not saying that these new mortars will replace 155mm howitzer's. But i think they can reduce the need for 155mm in eg. a mechanized brigade and that 155mm in the future will mainly fire precision ammunition at long ranges. These new mortars will delivere most of the "mass fire" for maneuvresupport. A Cardom(MCV-B) platoon of four can easily delivere 40 rounds per minute and the responstime is very low.

The FDF has long used the 155 / 152 / 130 for incapacitating high-valuable assets far (>10 km) from the front batallions, directed by recon FO's while mortars are there to support the combat of the batallions organically within their range (<10 km).
Although it is only a matter of an order to give all the indirect fire of a brigade (3 or 4 x mortar company, 1 x arty regiment / batallion depending on brigade structure) for a single FO in a single infantry platoon if seen necessary, which makes the indirect fire system quite flexible. Don't know about the US indirect fire control, at least in Russia the indirect fire is quite bureaucratic and straigthforward. This lack is compensated there by having more tubes :)

The shortcomings of not having expensive guided artillery munition have been tried to offcome in the FDF by good training to use the indirect fire for pinpoint targets. With mortars this is done with great success. With guns / howitzers range increases dispersion...

[StuRat]

Our unit is having its last live fire of our howitzers next month, as the Australian army is taking our guns off us and we are going to mortars. :-(

[jackehammond]

Folks,

The US Army is working hard on a project that will make the 120mm mortar an awesome weapon. But many fear they will fail as the German's did. And that its to produce a relatively cheap GPS round.

But there is one hitch in new international law that will have a drastic effect on 120mm mortar round effectiveness. And that is the new ban on submunition (or cargo rounds). Spain has a 120mm round with large submuntions that many countries have come to rely on. And that submuntion round they developed is totally safe if it does not explode (it charges a capacitor while in flight and if it does not explode the capacitor bleeds out making it totally safe). But the new treaty gives no exceptions.

Jack E. Hammond

.

[The Dane]

Jack, is it this one your thinking about ?

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=141408

I know that ATK's PGMM(laserguided 120mm) is very close to be fielded by US army but this is limited by the need of a laserdesignator to guide it(are there plans of issueing LD's on platoon level?)...
Guided mortar rounds in general will surely be an great asseset in especially assymmetric conflicts.

[GazB]

The US Army is working hard on a project that will make the 120mm mortar an awesome weapon.

The 120mm mortar is already an awesome weapon. There are plenty of guided rounds for it. an a 16kg HE Frag is already sufficiently effective as an anti personel round... Submunition models are useful, but hardly the only effective round of the 120mm mortar.

With the NONA and other 120mm gun mortars in Russians service able to fire mortar bombs and 120mm shells like a medium pressure gun I can't see its popularity waning in Russia any time soon.


I know that ATK's PGMM(laserguided 120mm) is very close to be fielded by US army but this is limited by the need of a laserdesignator to guide it(are there plans of issueing LD's on platoon level?)...

In the Russian army about the only units that operate UAVs are the artillery units. As far as I know the Pchelka can be used to lase targets and would be quite useful in the role of guiding GRAN 120mm mortar rounds for example.

[jackehammond]

Jack, is it this one your thinking about ?

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=141408

I know that ATK's PGMM(laserguided 120mm) is very close to be fielded by US army but this is limited by the need of a laserdesignator to guide it(are there plans of issueing LD's on platoon level?)...
Guided mortar rounds in general will surely be an great asseset in especially assymmetric conflicts.

Dear Member,

Yes. But the problem is the same as the laser homing 70mm rocket. COST! It has to be cost effective. And so far none has come in at the cost the US Army wants according to the ARMY TIMES.

Jack E. Hammond

.

[The Dane]

The precision ammunition for mortars will be fielded sooner or later i'm sure...

Just found these pictures of M1064A3 in Iraq(Falluja).


http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t340/heinedenmark/M1064A3_01.jpg
http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t340/heinedenmark/M1064A3_02.jpg
http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t340/heinedenmark/M1064A3_03.jpg
http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t340/heinedenmark/M1064A3_00.jpg

Played an important role during the thunder-run on Baghdad in 2003.


The scouts riding in Green Section 1's Humvee were headed for Curly and a seven-hour firefight, joining around 80 other soldiers to fight a surreal battle under and around a large cloverleaf highway exchange. The Mortar Platoon was also on Curly, and launched 260 120-mm mortar rounds during the battle, often firing its mortar tubes in one direction and engaging in direct fire in the other with its 50-caliber machine guns.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3723/is_200306/ai_n9274069

Baghdad
http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t340/heinedenmark/tr20.jpg