Your nation's small arms Part 2

[RomanS]

Ill represent Russia

OUR ARSENAL IS GREAT !!!

PM
http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo03pi/bo03pi02/pm0004.jpg

PMM
http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo03pi/bo03pi03/pmm0003.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo03pi/bo03pi03/pmm0001.jpg

APS
http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo03pi/bo03pi04/aps0004.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo03pi/bo03pi04/aps0003a.jpg

PSM
http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo03pi/bo03pi05/psm0004.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo03pi/bo03pi05/psm0003.jpg

Gurza
http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo03pi/bo03pi06/gyrza0001.jpg

Drotik
http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo03pi/bo03pi07/oc23001.jpg

Grach
http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo03pi/bo03pi10/mr44301.jpg

GSH-18
http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo03pi/bo03pi29/01011101.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo03pi/bo03pi29/01011201.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo03pi/bo03pi29/01011401.jpg

PSS (no rivals in the world)
http://faq.guns.ru/images/pss.gif

http://faq.guns.ru/images/sp-4.gif

http://www.mastergun.ru/images/Others/43/22-2.gif

PB-5
http://www.mastergun.ru/images/Others/43/22-1.gif

http://arms2.narod.ru/Info/Pistols/Russia/04.jpg

http://www.sporaw.ru/weapon/9mm_6p9.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kiparis
http://world.guns.ru/smg/kiparis.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo06pp/bo06pp01/kip001.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo06pp/bo06pp01/kip002.jpg

Kedr/Klin
http://faq.guns.ru/images/kedr.gif

http://world.guns.ru/smg/klin.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo06pp/bo06pp05/kli001.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo06pp/bo06pp05/kli002.jpg

Kashtan

http://world.guns.ru/smg/aek919k_r.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo06pp/bo06pp02/kas002.jpg

Bizon

http://faq.guns.ru/images/bizon.gif

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo06pp/bo06pp06/biz003.jpg

PP-90

http://faq.guns.ru/images/pp90.gif

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo06pp/bo06pp08/pp90002.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo06pp/bo06pp08/pp90001.jpg

http://world.guns.ru/smg/pp90m.jpg

PP-93
http://faq.guns.ru/images/pp93.gif

9A-91

http://faq.guns.ru/images/9a-91-1.jpg

http://faq.guns.ru/images/9a-91-2.jpg

Vihr

http://faq.guns.ru/images/VIHR.JPG

http://faq.guns.ru/images/sr3.gif

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AKM

http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/kalashnikov/ak/akm_m2a.jpg


http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/kalashnikov/ak/akm-6.jpg

AK-74

http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/kalashnikov/ak/ak74_wood.jpg

http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/kalashnikov/ak/aks74m.jpg

http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/kalashnikov/ak/AK74_2.jpg

AKS-74U

http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/kalashnikov/ak/aks74u-3.jpg

http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/kalashnikov/ak/aks74u-22.jpg

AK-100's

http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/kalashnikov/ak100/ak101a.gif

http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/kalashnikov/ak100/ak102-1.gif

http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/kalashnikov/ak100/AK104-762.jpg

http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/kalashnikov/ak100/ak105-2.gif

AK-107
http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo04av/bo04av03/04ak107/ak10702.jpg

AN-94 Abakan

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo04av/bo04av03/03an94/an94abakan01.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo04av/bo04av03/03an94/an94abakan03.jpg

AEK-971

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo04av/bo04av03/02aek971/aek97101.jpg

http://faq.guns.ru/images/aek971.gif

http://faq.guns.ru/images/tkb0111.gif

VAL

http://faq.guns.ru/images/as1.gif

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as_val.jpg

GROZA

http://faq.guns.ru/images/groza02.gif

http://faq.guns.ru/images/groza03.gif

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo04av/bo04av05/oc14groza05.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PKM

http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/kalashnikov/pk/1520.jpg

http://faq.guns.ru/images/pkm.gif

http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/kalashnikov/pk/simondog3.jpg

RPK-74

http://dboy.cpgl.net/russain/kalashnikov/ak/rpk74.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo07pr/bo07pr15/04002502.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo07pr/bo07pr15/04002802.jpg

Utes

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo09pk/bo09pk02/nsv02.jpg

Kord

http://world.guns.ru/machine/kord_l.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo09pk/bo09pk03/kord01.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SVD

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo05sv/bo05sv01/svd2.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo05sv/bo05sv01/svd3.jpg

SVDS

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo05sv/bo05sv02/svds001.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo05sv/bo05sv02/svds005.jpg

SVU

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo05sv/bo05sv03/svu002.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo05sv/bo05sv04/svua001.jpg

VSK-94

http://faq.guns.ru/images/vsk94.gif

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo05sv/bo05sv06/vsk001.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo05sv/bo05sv06/vsk003.jpg

Vintorez

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo05sv/bo05sv05/vss002.jpg

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/vss2.jpg

http://faq.guns.ru/images/vss.gif

SV-98

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sv98-l.jpg

http://faq.guns.ru/images/sv982.gif

V-94

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/osv96.jpg

OZ-44

http://faq.guns.ru/images/oc44.gif

SVN

http://faq.guns.ru/images/ksvk.gif

http://faq.guns.ru/images/svn98.gif

SV-99

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sv99-l.jpg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GP-25

http://faq.guns.ru/images/gp25.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo11gp/bo11gp02/2972201.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo11gp/bo11gp02/2972502.jpg

GP-30

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo11gp/bo11gp03/2972202.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo11gp/bo11gp03/2972503.jpg

RPG-7

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr01/rpg701.jpg

RPG-16

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr13/rpg1601.jpg

RPG-18

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr02/22010698.jpg

RPG-22

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr03/23010698.jpg

RPG-26

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr04/24010698.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr04/rpg2601.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr04/23020698.jpg

RPG-27

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr05/25020698.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr05/25030698.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr05/rpg2701.gif

RPG-29

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr06/rpg2901.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr06/rpg2902.jpg

DP-64

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr07/dp6401.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr07/dp6402.jpg

RG-6

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr09/rg601.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr09/rg604.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr09/rg602.jpg

RGM Kastet

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr16/rgm4001.jpg

Arbalet

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr14/arbalet01.jpg

AGS-17

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo13gs/bo13gs01/ags01.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo13gs/bo13gs01/ags004.jpg

AGS-30

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo13gs/bo13gs02/ags3001.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo13gs/bo13gs02/ags3002.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo13gs/bo13gs02/ags3003.jpg

Kozlik

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo13gs/bo13gs04/tkb013401.jpg

Balkan

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo13gs/bo13gs05/6g2702.jpg

U-98

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo13gs/bo13gs06/98u01.jpg

RPO Rys

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo14og/bo14og02/rporis01.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo14og/bo14og02/rporis02.jpg

RPO Shmel (no rivals)

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo14og/bo14og01/rpoa01.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo14og/bo14og01/nov/rpoa11.jpg

http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo14og/bo14og01/rpoa06.jpg


LONG LIVE RUSSIA

http://www.fotw.net/images/r/ru~pres.gif

[born_to_love]

Awesome bro, thats alot of guns and i still think that you left out a few.

[MEGR]

The Arbalet kind of reminds me of the French ww1 Chaut-Chaut (Sho-Sho)..

[J-10]

Great Russia :D

[scrybe]

The SVD is just plain sexy.

[Chrome Beretta]

I dont get it, how does the Bizon work?.

Ah Russia, so many AK vairients.

[scrybe]

The magazine is that thing that looks like a nade tube on the front. High mag capacity and pretty quick ROF, if I remember correctly. I don't know exact numbers for either though.

[n.ignomo]

(PS : Chauchat)

http://www.1stnmvi.com/Chauchat1.JPG


http://www.reenactor.net/units/151ri/aar_folder/aar_fall_2002_files/47b3da36b3127cce9627_012.jpeg

CHAUCHAT
Country Of Origin: France
Designation: Machine Gun
Cartridge: 8 x 50R Lebel
.30-06 US Service
Production Date: 1915-1924

Weapon Dimensions:
Length: 1143 mm
Barrel: 469 mm
Weight: 9.07 kg
Rifling: 4 grooves, rh
Feed System: 20-round box magazine
Rate Of Fire: 250 rds/min

[Thor]

Russian weapons.. for the losers, for the poor.

[MARINO]

Russian weapons.. for the losers, for the poor.
rofl rofl rofl :D

[UkrainianAmerican]

Russian weapons.. for the losers, for the poor.
Just when I thought Scandinavia vs. Russia fight was getting old. :roll:

[droopy]

Russian weapons.. for the losers, for the poor.

IF you had a description of each weapon you could make the enciclopedya AK or something.

90% of the cases but Vietnam had AK`s and won so did Afghanistan in the 80`s.
So you can scratch the "losers" from the list and keep the "poor" ;)

[Durandal]

I dont get it, how does the Bizon work?.

Ah Russia, so many AK vairients.

Since no one properly answered this for you...

It is a magazine "tube" called a "Helical" Magazine. The rounds are loaded, well, in a helix style shape, allowing for a much higher capacity. I want to say they topped off around at 80 rounds, but it depends on the gun they are made for I guess...

Examples:

A PP90M1 subgun...32 rnd box and 64 rnd Helical magazine
http://world.guns.ru/smg/pp90m1_1.jpghttp://world.guns.ru/smg/pp90m1_2.jpg

The design is not really all that innovative now,though I am sure it was when it first came out. It never really caught on in the United States even though it has been avaialble for the past twenty years or so...bo civilian and Class III

Those "good old" Calicos.... :D

http://images.gunsamerica.com/upload/976461081-1.jpg

Same concept, but top loading...built in 1986 initially, the design though was around since about 1980...the magazine spring tension on the Calicos is wound

[FDF_Hemppis]

Russian weapons.. for the losers, for the poor.

Shut up dumb-ass!

Permskii, how many of these weapons are actually in service? I'm just wondering since there's so many different AKs, for example.

Btw, that PP-90 is soooo straight from some spy-movie :D

[deutschersoldat]

are these weapon from the second world war?

[tenda]

...great weapon's....!!!! :D

[Vance]

(PS : Chauchat)

http://www.1stnmvi.com/Chauchat1.JPG


http://www.reenactor.net/units/151ri/aar_folder/aar_fall_2002_files/47b3da36b3127cce9627_012.jpeg

CHAUCHAT
Country Of Origin: France
Designation: Machine Gun
Cartridge: 8 x 50R Lebel
.30-06 US Service
Production Date: 1915-1924

Weapon Dimensions:
Length: 1143 mm
Barrel: 469 mm
Weight: 9.07 kg
Rifling: 4 grooves, rh
Feed System: 20-round box magazine
Rate Of Fire: 250 rds/min
****tiest gun ever made.

[Thor]

Russian weapons.. for the losers, for the poor.

IF you had a description of each weapon you could make the enciclopedya AK or something.

90% of the cases but Vietnam had AK`s and won so did Afghanistan in the 80`s.
So you can scratch the "losers" from the list and keep the "poor" ;)

Well..

Afghanistan - both sides had similar small arms.

Vietnam - sure that's an exception.


Shut up dumb-ass!
hengittäkää syvään

[MEGR]

http://www.1stnmvi.com/Chauchat1.JPG


Don't they look alike? I'm comparing looks, not reliability.

[/quote]



http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bo001/bo12gr/bo12gr14/arbalet01.jpg

[memphiz]

Check out these "small arms"
http://puregold.cooltrap.com/pictures/midgets.jpg

[RomanS]

are these weapon from the second world war?

there will be jealous people about Russian weapons, and they will admit it.

there will be jealous people about Russian weapons, but they will not admit it, and instead type **** like you and Thor did.

its ok to be jealous about Russian weapons. The world knows they are great. The world uses them, and aint complaining.

[bloddyaxe]

It is fascinating that Swedish people, who have the biggest army of the Nordic countries, could have a minority complex against Russia.

[Fearless-Falcon]

Are all those russian weapons still in service today?

[RomanS]

98% of those are in service.

[5jumpchump]

Russian weapons.. for the losers, for the poor.

I see your point . Nothing like being a rich winner buying a $15,000.00
Styer Aug and having it jam on you rofl

[intelligenzija]

Germania Germany Deutschland
http://dboy.cpgl.net/H&K/g36/action/g36group.jpg
G36
http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/german/behoerden/03_rifles/03_images/03_01_weapon_01.jpg
G 36 E
http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/german/behoerden/03_rifles/03_images/03_03_weapon_01.jpg
G 36 C
http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/german/behoerden/03_rifles/03_images/03_04_weapon_01.jpg
====
MP7 4,6mm x 30
http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/german/behoerden/02_submachineguns/02_images/02_01_weapon_01.jpg
http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/german/behoerden/02_submachineguns/02_images/02_01_weapon_03.jpg
MP5
http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/german/behoerden/02_submachineguns/02_images/02_03_weapon_01.jpg
http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/german/behoerden/02_submachineguns/02_images/02_04_weapon_01.jpg
http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/german/behoerden/02_submachineguns/02_images/02_10_weapon_01.jpg
PSG1
http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/german/behoerden/03_rifles/03_images/03_08_weapon_01.jpg
====
G3 & G36
http://www.geisenfeld-online.de/home/roettinger/bundeswehr/g3-g36.jpg
good old G3
http://www.rk-nordhardt.de/INTERESSANTES/Handwaffen_BW/a_g3a3.gif
====
P8
http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/german/behoerden/01_pistols/01_images/01_11_weapon_01.jpg
USP Tactical
http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/german/behoerden/01_pistols/01_images/01_08_weapon_01.jpg
Mark23
http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/german/behoerden/01_pistols/01_images/01_10_weapon_01.jpg
P2000
http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/german/behoerden/01_pistols/01_images/01_01_weapon_01.jpg
=====
MG3
http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/mg3_04.jpg
http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/mg3_10.jpg
http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/mg3_09.jpg

[deutschersoldat]

are these weapon from the second world war?

there will be jealous people about Russian weapons, and they will admit it.

there will be jealous people about Russian weapons, but they will not admit it, and instead type **** like you and Thor did.

its ok to be jealous about Russian weapons. The world knows they are great. The world uses them, and aint complaining.

i am german, why should i be jealous about russian weapons ^^
and stop wishing me death

[Freibier]

a little more german stuff:

Handgranaten:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1278/diehl3.jpg
Handflamm (one shot flamethrower):
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8161/handf01.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6200/handf04.jpg
Panzerfaust3/Bunkerfaust:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/179/PZF30004.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4927/Bunkerf.jpg
Fliegerfaust2:
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5306/0676.jpg
AG36:
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/623/ag36.jpg
Grapi:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9492/GRAPI0003.jpg
G22:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2748/059F0.jpg
G8:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/4365/g8zf.jpg
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/1329/g28.jpg
MG4:
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1944/MG43_1.jpg
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9337/mg43pile.jpg
Kampfmesser 2000,lol:
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/1700/0306.jpg

Hot, Tow, Milan, etc. as already posted

[crazyman]

was it just me or do several of the mid-range RPG's look like a copy of the old U.S. '60s vintage LAW. i think it was the RPG 16/22

[MEGR]

I wish i could get me an AK-74... I want to try the 545 soooo bad....They need to sell them here in the US.

[RomanS]

I wish i could get me an AK-74... I want to try the 545 soooo bad....They need to sell them here in the US.

They do Devgru.

I owned several.

Here is on for sale

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976472297.htm

and another one

This is A BEAUTIFUL ONE, I might even buy it

http://gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=19267326

[Durandal]

Here is on for sale

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976472297.htm

Exactly the one I have...

I like them and enjoy shooting them just as I would ANYTHING on your photo list. Russian weapons, however, are not some fantastic piece of militaria. Just the same as everyone else's...built to contract, usually by the lowest bidder, paid for by tax payers' money, for a soldier...usually reliable, sometimes not, can kill at 100 yards...usually.

[RomanS]

Here is on for sale

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976472297.htm

Exactly the one I have...

I like them and enjoy shooting them just as I would ANYTHING on your photo list. Russian weapons, however, are not some fantastic piece of militaria. Just the same as everyone else's...built to contract, usually by the lowest bidder, paid for by tax payers' money, for a soldier...usually reliable, sometimes not, can kill at 100 yards...usually.

agreed my man. A matter of taste. Porshe or Ferrari

we should never argue who's weapons are better. Each country has their own fan groups. :P

[duck]

Is there a SVD/Dragunov fan club to join? Loved shooting ít.

[RomanS]

Is there a SVD/Dragunov fan club to join? Loved shooting ít.

soon you will be able to join Russian ARMS community.
SOOOOON

[RomanS]

Here is on for sale

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976472297.htm

Exactly the one I have...

I like them and enjoy shooting them just as I would ANYTHING on your photo list. Russian weapons, however, are not some fantastic piece of militaria. Just the same as everyone else's...built to contract, usually by the lowest bidder, paid for by tax payers' money, for a soldier...usually reliable, sometimes not, can kill at 100 yards...usually.

agreed my man. A matter of taste. Porshe or Ferrari

we should never argue who's weapons are better. Each country has their own fan groups. :P

ANd also

what can M-4 and G36 do, that AK can't? Besides being tighter by half an inch group on the paper

[Raistlin]

Ill represent Russia
Wow o.O I've never seen even half of those weapons. Some of them look a lot like other weapons made by different countries but who cares? Amazing.

[Michael RVR]

(PS : Chauchat)

http://www.1stnmvi.com/Chauchat1.JPG


http://www.reenactor.net/units/151ri/aar_folder/aar_fall_2002_files/47b3da36b3127cce9627_012.jpeg

CHAUCHAT
Country Of Origin: France
Designation: Machine Gun
Cartridge: 8 x 50R Lebel
.30-06 US Service
Production Date: 1915-1924

Weapon Dimensions:
Length: 1143 mm
Barrel: 469 mm
Weight: 9.07 kg
Rifling: 4 grooves, rh
Feed System: 20-round box magazine
Rate Of Fire: 250 rds/min
****tiest gun ever made.

What makes you say that ?

[GazB]

What makes you say that ?

It was a gun made by comittee that even the French didn't want. They used a bit of politics to force it on the Americans when they made the mistake of entering a war without a few decent weapons types. In the french calibre is was not good... in the more powerful american calibre it was not good much more often...


was it just me or do several of the mid-range RPG's look like a copy of the old U.S. '60s vintage LAW. i think it was the RPG 16/22

That was the RPG-18. The main difference was that this was issued as an extra weapon over and above decent anti tank weapons like the RPG-7 and ATGMs like AT-3 and AT-4/-5. It was really just intended for the other things you use AT weapons for... ie MG nests, Snipers, bunkers etc etc.
The improved RPG-22 and the further improved RPG-26 and RPG-27 greatly increased the calibre which greatly improved performance while retaining the one shot throwaway design. Still not as widely used as the RPG-7 but probably very useful where enemy armour wasn't likely but direct fire HE was useful but you didn't want to carry around a launcher all the time.


deutschersoldat wrote:
are these weapon from the second world war?


Hehehehe... the only WWII weapon I can see in all these photos is the MG3/MG42... and that isn't Russian is it?

[Mudcat]

http://www.1stnmvi.com/Chauchat1.JPG

US troops were issued the weapon when they first arived in France durring WW1. The open magazine was to allow the user to see how many rounds he had left. Instead it allowed dirt and debris into the magazine and caused serious jams. Also, the gun was not very well made.

As stated above US troops were issued the weapon when they arrived mainly because the French wanted to get rid of them. Thankfully Browning came up with the BAR.

[Durandal]

...ANd also

what can M-4 and G36 do, that AK can't? Besides being tighter by half an inch group on the paper

See, now you should have left it at that...

Having NEVER experienced a G36 except at a gun show and shooting hte SL8, I'll comment on the M4...since we are talking about OUR guns, I'll direct it towards my CAR-15...

Three things...

•Weighs a lot less.

•I can swap out an upper receiver and barrel assembly and turn the gun into a 24" monster. I can do this in 30 seconds...and just poping TWO pins...

•The machine tooling and craftsmanship is FAR better.

[RomanS]

Having NEVER experienced a G36 except at a gun show and shooting hte SL8, I'll comment on the M4...since we are talking about OUR guns, I'll direct it towards my CAR-15...

I've shot both G36 and G36K. Besides the annoying whistling tune, and a cheap made magazines that would break in a war conditions like say Grozny, it wasn't a big deal. Actually jamed on me twice.


As for M16 family. Shot them all, many many times.


•Weighs a lot less.
Comparing to what? AK-47 Type 1 1949 milled reciever?

AK-74M is heavier than the M-4 by half of kilogram.



•I can swap out an upper receiver and barrel assembly and turn the gun into a 24" monster. I can do this in 30 seconds...and just poping TWO pins...


For what and why? So you can shoot a fly off your enemy forehead? I can kill any man size target with my Ak-74M at the maximum range of 400 meters without a problem. Believe me when I say I tested at this distances.

I hate when people say "Oh the M4 is more accurate than AK". Like I said, on the paper when both guns are on tripod, M4 is more accurate. But if you can't hit a man at 200 meters with either, you shouldnt handle guns.


•The machine tooling and craftsmanship is FAR better.
I guess so, is that why its a jaming machine? What good does your superior crafting will do if your gun doesnt go BANG?

I've talked to many who are in service, were in service, special forces. And majority of them say the same damn thing over and over. Read above.

In fact everytime I shoot the M4 or M16, out of 6 mags, there will be at least one jam.

I also hate the magazines. Me and my friend did a test one time. Took an M16 magazine, and an AK-74 bakelite mag. We threw heavy rocks on them, threw the mags against big rocks, stomped on them. The M16 mag had a huge dent, and you could only load 4 rounds after that the follower stoped. The bakelite only had scratches, and didnt even crack. So here goes the crazy thing. We shot 3 rounds through the cheap East German bakelite mag, and I managed to still load 26 rounds in it. GOD I WISH I HAD THE VIDEO CAMERA AT THAT TIME.

But we can always repeat it.

[Durandal]

Blah, blah blah, jam, jam, jam, blah, blah, blah...

I typed out this line for line response and I figure I would make it simple...so I deleted it.

You asked what an M4 or G36 could do that an AK could not. Not only did I tell you, I also gave you reasons why I liked the rifle more than the AK. I gave you legit reasons. Then you throw a hissy fit. They are reasons that I, me, (as in...my personal reasons) why I like the AR over the AK. YOU asked/commented so I replied.

Deal with it.

[RomanS]

Blah, blah blah, jam, jam, jam, blah, blah, blah...

I typed out this line for line response and I figure I would make it simple...so I deleted it.

You asked what an M4 or G36 could do that an AK could not. Not only did I tell you, I also gave you reasons why I liked the rifle more than the AK. I gave you legit reasons. Then you throw a hissy fit. They are reasons that I, me, (as in...my personal reasons) why I like the AR over the AK. YOU asked/commented so I replied.

Deal with it.

Dude lighten up.

It is your taste, i understand.

I have my taste as well. But we both know number one selling assualt rifle in this country has wood, and a curved magazine.
;)

[Durandal]

Well, when a devloping nation can only afford crap, that is what they buy.

;)

[RomanS]

Well, when a devloping nation can only afford crap, that is what they buy.

;)

and what do you mean by saying crap ?

[RomanS]

Yeah ask millions of AK owners in this country, if they think AKs are crap.

And than ask them what they think about M4. You won't like most of their opinions :lol:

[oldsoak]

Most people who have handled Russian small arms are impressed with the quality and thought that have gone into the designs. Simple, reliable, cheap - what more does one want ?

[Durandal]

Yeah ask millions of AK owners in this country, if they think AKs are crap.

And than ask them what they think about M4. You won't like most of their opinions :lol:

rofl rofl rofl

Is the sky in your world blue?

[FDF_Hemppis]

Don't need no Russian AK's, while I can have a Finnish RK ;)

[/sarcasm] p-)

[Freibier]

I'd take a G3KA4 over m4 and ak anyday p-)
just personal taste ... none of the guns listed are bad and they all have their pros and cons

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Perskiimon wrote,

I've shot both G36 and G36K. Besides the annoying whistling tune, and a cheap made magazines that would break in a war conditions like say Grozny, it wasn't a big deal.

Fought in 'war' like conditions with a G-36 in say, Grozny have we?.

By the way I think its really cute how the AK family is an almost direct rip off of the Stg 44 design but you still tout it as 'your' countries weapon.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Re Permskii and Durandal
I think the more important thing for Durandal is how the gun handles when hes at a range, stuff like that,....since most likely he wont be in a situation where he will 'shoot 3 rounds through a mag'
He will howver take into account how good a weapon is in terms of ergonomics, feel, etc. So in his case, the m16 family is going to have a natural advantage over the ak.
Permskii on the other hand seems to care about reliability a lot more, hence in his tests, the AK family is going to have a really big advantage.
:D
Hope that settled it! :)
Now stop bitch-slapping each other :P ;)

[RomanS]

Perskiimon wrote,

I've shot both G36 and G36K. Besides the annoying whistling tune, and a cheap made magazines that would break in a war conditions like say Grozny, it wasn't a big deal.

Fought in 'war' like conditions with a G-36 in say, Grozny have we?.

By the way I think its really cute how the AK family is an almost direct rip off of the Stg 44 design but you still tout it as 'your' countries weapon.

Hold on, before we argue farther,

HAVE YOU SHOT THE STG ?

HAVE YOU TAKEN ONE APART ?

DO YOU KNOW THE STG 44 SYSTEM?

HAVE YOU SHOT AN AK?

HAVE YOU TAKEN THE AK APART?

DO YOU KNOW AKs SYSTEM ?

i'm inpatiently waiting for your answers, mister weapons expert.

[American Patriot]

I think I've wrote this before on the forum but..

Let's see why the Stoner gun is better..

1. IMO, the AK has ****ty ergonomics.
2. The bolt carrier does not lock back after the last shot.
3. You can't chamber a round when the safety is on.

[RomanS]

1. IMO, the AK has ****ty ergonomics.

explain yourself in more details


2. The bolt carrier does not lock back after the last shot.

Do you know why this was designed that way? SVD however locks open on purpose. Like I asked, do you know why?

And what is the big deal by the way of opening bolt on the last round. Hey enemies look, I'm empty. How do you know if the AK is empty or not?


3. You can't chamber a round when the safety is on.

lol, i won't even comment this one.....

[FinnishMF]

I think I've wrote this before on the forum but..

Let's see why the Stoner gun is better..

1. IMO, the AK has ****ty ergonomics.
2. The bolt carrier does not lock back after the last shot.
3. You can't chamber a round when the safety is on.


3. Omg :D

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Permskiiomon wrote,

HAVE YOU SHOT THE STG ? Yes

HAVE YOU TAKEN ONE APART ? Yes

DO YOU KNOW THE STG 44 SYSTEM? Yes

HAVE YOU SHOT AN AK? Yes

HAVE YOU TAKEN THE AK APART? Yes

DO YOU KNOW AKs SYSTEM ? Yes


Do you want more examples of equipment the Soviets copied then passed off as their own original idea?.



i'm inpatiently waiting rofl

[RomanS]

Do you want more examples of equipment the Soviets copied then passed off as their own original idea?.

Please educate me

[MEGR]

Oy Vey. Another good thread about guns that results in the "which is better crap."

[rob]

Perskiimon wrote,

I've shot both G36 and G36K. Besides the annoying whistling tune, and a cheap made magazines that would break in a war conditions like say Grozny, it wasn't a big deal.

Fought in 'war' like conditions with a G-36 in say, Grozny have we?.

By the way I think its really cute how the AK family is an almost direct rip off of the Stg 44 design but you still tout it as 'your' countries weapon.

research your subject before posting. cause if you have disasembled those weapons i doubt youd be able to figure out how to reasemble them if you believe that to be true. because in that case the m16 was based off of the stg and so on. the furthest i would go is to say the stg may have inspired the ak and other assualt rifles. that is all.

for me i thin i will stick to an m4. many soldiers i have spoken too have had complete confidence, many more elite soldiers say that the lmts are extremely reliable. the m4 and m16 is not ak, but make no mistake if you clean it, it will go bang. many people in the us have over 6000 rounds through an m4 without cleaning and the damn thing shoots like a champ. adn dont say that you dont need to clean the ak, because in the end that ak is a weapon and it can jam as well, it just takes a bit more to do so.

both are great weapons, i think personally the m4 is for me, but both inherated all the characteristics of the culture, the russians need a weapon simple easy to mass produce and reliable, because at the time education was much poorer and tactics did not demand a accurate rifle, and thats what they got, it was perfect for them. same is true for the m16, jsut that our culture is different and it inherated different things for us culture at the time.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Permskiiomon wrote,

Please educate me

No. I answered your question know you answer mine.

Rob wrote,

research your subject before posting. cause if you have disasembled those weapons i doubt youd be able to figure out how to reasemble them if you believe that to be true. because in that case the m16 was based off of the stg and so on. the furthest i would go is to say the stg may have inspired the ak and other assualt rifles. that is all.

Read the post before posting. I did say almost.

[talib_killa34]

Apart from the arguing currently raging across these hallowed boards, a sweet thread with great pic's of excellent armaments.

Russia has made outstanding weapons and weapons platforms for the last 60+ years and I see that trend continuing well into the 21st century. No one can hate on that! ;)

Leave the "Best & Worst" lists to the tabloids. :P

[rob]

i just noticed that no one actually put up a post for the us. but here we go.

rifles:

m16
http://world.guns.ru/assault/m16a2.jpg

m14
http://world.guns.ru/assault/m14.jpg

m4
http://world.guns.ru/assault/m4a1.jpg

ar10
http://world.guns.ru/assault/ar10t.jpg

mini 14
http://world.guns.ru/assault/ruger_ac566_1.gif

ar18
http://world.guns.ru/assault/ar18.jpg

m63
http://www.biggerhammer.net/m96/stoner63a_carbine.jpg

lmt mrp
http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/img/mrp9.jpg

rav 02
http://www.robarm.com/images/RAV02%20RS%20330.jpg

sr25
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sr25.jpg

bolt rifles:

m24
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/m24.jpg

m40a3(fn spr shown, but are identical)
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/fn_spr_a2.jpg

hs precision htr
http://www.imt.net/~mele/images/htr1.jpg

large caliber rifles:

barret m98
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/barret-m98.jpg

barret m82
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/barett_m82a1_1.jpg

barret m99
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/barrett_m99.jpg

barret m90 & 95
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/barrett_m90.jpg

Pistols:

high power is desputed, american design originally produced by fn.

m1911
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/1911_1.jpg

this is only a small portion of american designs but im getting tired of finding the pictures so here is a list. :cantbeli:

sw sigma
sw classic
cotl double eagle
desert eagle
ruger
bren ten
wilson kz45
kimber ten II
colt ohws phase 1 (posted pic becuase of the obsuraty surounding this weapon)
http://www.mark23.com/MPPKSD/colt-socom.jpg

colt 9mm ar15
mac m11
calico
ruger mp-9

remington 870
mossburg 500, 590
ithaca 37
jackhammer

m2
stoner lmg model 86
m60e4

guns we did not necisarly design by are directly responsible for.
mk23
mk48 mod 0
xm8
xm29
xm25(not particularly proud of "encouraging" the last three.)

[/img]

[RomanS]

Ngati Tumatuenga

could you please go up a little bit more, before asking me questions.

Let me re-write



HAVE YOU SHOT THE STG ?

HAVE YOU TAKEN ONE APART ?

DO YOU KNOW THE STG 44 SYSTEM?

HAVE YOU SHOT AN AK?

HAVE YOU TAKEN THE AK APART?

DO YOU KNOW AKs SYSTEM ?

i'm inpatiently waiting for your answers, mister weapons expert.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

You know for a guy who claims he can 'kill' a man sized target at 400m with an AK I would have thought your eyesight would be a little better.

Let me re-write.

HAVE YOU SHOT THE STG ? Yes

HAVE YOU TAKEN ONE APART ? Yes

DO YOU KNOW THE STG 44 SYSTEM? Yes

HAVE YOU SHOT AN AK? Yes

HAVE YOU TAKEN THE AK APART? Yes

DO YOU KNOW AKs SYSTEM ? Yes

Did you get it that time or is your selective memory playing up again. Maybe I should use a crayon huh?.

[GazB]

The open magazine was to allow the user to see how many rounds he had left. Instead it allowed dirt and debris into the magazine and caused serious jams. Also, the gun was not very well made.


Ummm, actually the weapon the US soldiers were issued with had a straigh magazine... the rimmed 8mm French round required a curved mag but the straight walled American .30-06 required a straight box mag.


1. IMO, the AK has ****ty ergonomics.
2. The bolt carrier does not lock back after the last shot.
3. You can't chamber a round when the safety is on.

Hahahahaha... with those criteria the SKS is better than the AK. You can operate the safety very easily as it is right next to the trigger... when you hold the gun with your finger on the trigger you can feel if the safety is on or not (unless you are left handed of course) and you can reach over more easily to operate the cocking handle as it is higher up. It also locks open on the last round, and you can operate the action and even strip and clean the weapon with the safety on. Still pick an AK though.


By the way I think its really cute how the AK family is an almost direct rip off of the Stg 44 design but you still tout it as 'your' countries weapon.

A common claim in the west but probably wrong. The Stg 44 design uses a gas system very similar to Soviet Automatic rifles captured early in the war. Simonovs and Tokarevs are widely considered failures in the west but the Germans were quite impressed. The Soviet conscripts didn't treat them very well but when properly maintained as they were in German hands they were very good rifles that had many advantages over the US M1 Garand which was the only other major Semi auto being produced in numbers at the time.

Photos of Kalashnikovs early prototype models show influences from many weapons but to suggest the AK was a direct copy of of an Stg 44 is a bit juvenile.

[Sergei]

By the way I think its really cute how the AK family is an almost direct rip off of the Stg 44 design but you still tout it as 'your' countries weapon.

So many stupid remarks in this thread.
I like when so-called "weapon's experts" pop-up from time to time in the threads and start saying crap they have no idea about.

The two weapons have a totally different system of operation and their principles of operation are different. I doubt you ever shot or disassembled any of the two aforementioned peices of weaponry. :bash:

[RomanS]

its not worth my time to try and explain to this idiot.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Gazb wrote,

A common claim in the west but probably wrong.

Well well, even the much vaunted russian apologist and armchair expert Gazb can't be sure.

Note won't all of you that I did say almost.

Permskiiomon wrote,

its not worth my time to try and explain to this idiot.

Deft attempt at redirection but anyway,

I've shot both G36 and G36K. Besides the annoying whistling tune, and a cheap made magazines that would break in a war conditions like say Grozny, it wasn't a big deal.

Fought in 'war' like conditions with a G-36 in say, Grozny have we?.

Well?.

[REMOV]

By the way I think its really cute how the AK family is an almost direct rip off of the Stg 44 design but you still tout it as 'your' countries weapon.I'm afraid it's not true. The Greman assault rifle influenced Russian designs (not only Kalashnikov's also other guns competed with KB-P-580), but it's just superficial similiarities (curved magazine, a little bit similar shape).

http://www.sinopa.ee/kalashnikov/kraznoe/k02ak/akjpg01/r049705.jpg
AK (KB-P-580)

http://www.sinopa.ee/kalashnikov/kraznoe/k02ak/akjpg01/r049710.jpg
TKB-415

http://www.sinopa.ee/kalashnikov/kraznoe/k02ak/akjpg01/r049715.jpg
KB-P-410

http://faq.guns.ru/images/stg442.gif
StG-44

http://faq.guns.ru/images/ak46-2.gif
One of the first Kalashnikov's prototype of AK

[RomanS]

By the way I think its really cute how the AK family is an almost direct rip off of the Stg 44 design but you still tout it as 'your' countries weapon.I'm afraid it's not true. The Greman assault rifle influenced Russian designs (not only Kalashnikov's also other guns competed with KB-P-580), but it's just superficial similiarities (curved magazine, a little bit similar shape).

http://www.sinopa.ee/kalashnikov/kraznoe/k02ak/akjpg01/r049705.jpg
AK (KB-P-580)

http://www.sinopa.ee/kalashnikov/kraznoe/k02ak/akjpg01/r049710.jpg
TKB-415

http://www.sinopa.ee/kalashnikov/kraznoe/k02ak/akjpg01/r049715.jpg
KB-P-410

http://faq.guns.ru/images/stg442.gif
StG-44

http://faq.guns.ru/images/ak46-2.gif
One of the first Kalashnikov's prototype of AK

Thank YOU REMOV

Ngati, tell me. Maybe SVD is based on German weapons?

Oh wait wait, Bizon is totally MP5 rip off

Or how about Abakan AN94, that must be the G11 right?

Was Groza the Steyr Aug ripoff?

Maybe even PKM is HK21 replica, accept with wood.

But the RPG-7 is a total panzerfaust

[RomanS]

The only influence I think Russians admired from Germans was the Kurz round 7.92

Russia developed our own shortly after in 1943 calle M43 7.62x39
the work began for the rifles.
SKS I might say was another weapon Kalashnikov admired, and based some of his early prototypes.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Remov wrote,

I'm afraid it's not true. The Greman assault rifle influenced Russian designs (not only Kalashnikov's also other guns competed with KB-P-580), but it's just superficial similiarities (curved magazine, a little bit similar shape).

Thank you Remov. I stand corrected. Its so nice to have a rational debate without resorting to name calling. And from a real expert as well.

So many questions permskiiomon, but you have yet to answer mine.

Its one thing to name yourself after a military unit and use various military weapons on a range but when you start alluding to the effectiveness of these weapons in combat, or lack of as the case maybe, I have to wonder where and when you received your experience.

[EvanL]

Im more surprised with the fact that Permskii argued for over 3pages without using the word cocksucker. Or maybe i missed it.
Well i laud you on the restraint Permskii. Hopefully this is a change of things to come.

[Durandal]

Im more surprised with the fact that Permskii argued for over 3pages without using the word cocksucker.

He did, just vailed in stupid comments like:


In fact everytime I shoot the M4 or M16, out of 6 mags, there will be at least one jam.

This is the most inane sh*t...

[Graeme]

By the way I think its really cute how the AK family is an almost direct rip off of the Stg 44 design but you still tout it as 'your' countries weapon.I'm afraid it's not true. The Greman assault rifle influenced Russian designs (not only Kalashnikov's also other guns competed with KB-P-580), but it's just superficial similiarities (curved magazine, a little bit similar shape).

http://www.sinopa.ee/kalashnikov/kraznoe/k02ak/akjpg01/r049705.jpg
AK (KB-P-580)

http://www.sinopa.ee/kalashnikov/kraznoe/k02ak/akjpg01/r049710.jpg
TKB-415

http://www.sinopa.ee/kalashnikov/kraznoe/k02ak/akjpg01/r049715.jpg
KB-P-410

http://faq.guns.ru/images/stg442.gif
StG-44

http://faq.guns.ru/images/ak46-2.gif
One of the first Kalashnikov's prototype of AK

Thank YOU REMOV

Ngati, tell me. Maybe SVD is based on German weapons?

Oh wait wait, Bizon is totally MP5 rip off

Or how about Abakan AN94, that must be the G11 right?

Was Groza the Steyr Aug ripoff?

Maybe even PKM is HK21 replica, accept with wood.

But the RPG-7 is a total panzerfaust

My god you're an annoyance and a half. Maybe he is wrong, who gives a flying ****? get off the high horse pal.

[Flagg]

I've been down this track before regarding other Soviet era weapons systems and how they've been "influenced" by previous designs with Permskii, GazB and others.

I'm wondering what everyone's opinion would be on the following question:

Had the STG44 NOT been developed.......would the AK47 exist in its current format, and why?

My experience with the AK and AK variants is having owned a Romak, and having fired a number of AK variants.

I've also had the good fortune of handling an STG44(as they are quite readily found way down here in NZ).

Although I'm a current serving reserve infanteer and I've always had a passion for firearms I am by no means a certified armourer so my opinions are my own.

I think it's unlikely the AK would be as recognizable or as prolific had the MP43/44/STG44 not been developed.

I also think I'm more likely to give more weight to Ngati's opinions, or anyone else with actual operational experience, over range-only experience.

I happen to use "cheap plastic magazines" on the Steyr.....thus far, I have found them quite robust even after filled with water, mud, and banged around relentlessly....all I need to do is strip and clean them after leaving the field.

[REMOV]

The only influence I think Russians admired from Germans was the Kurz round 7.92Hmm...


Source: http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA4.html

The Russian M-43 cartridge was NOT YET designed by the idea of "Old Guru" Vladimir G. Fyodorov. It was NOT design of MIKHAIL T. KALASHNIKOV, but two noted Soviet military cartridge designers YELISAROV (name often mis-spelt as "Elisarov") and BORIS SYEMIN. M.T. Kalashnikov designed just a family of firearms around already existing cartridge 7.62-mm M-43. It was NOT a copy of German 7.9 x 33 mm Pistolenpatrone 43 (= Polte Versuchspatrone 38), but cloned from earlier GECO cartridge, designed by Director WINTER of a firm GUSTAV GENSCHOW & Co. A.G. in 1934/35.

Nobody know (or tell), how the Russian designers got those rare GeCo cartridges in their hands during the second year of Russo-German War, but they evidently had them! Too many coincidences are no more coincidences: The very same basic case (of Italian MANNLICHER-CARCANO cartridge). The very same case length: 39.5 mm. Similar 1 : 20 taper of cartridge body. Same head-to-shoulder distance and shoulder angle (the headspace, when combined). Until year 1938 the overall length of GeCo 7.75 x 39 mm cartridge was 55 millimeters and the bullet diameter was 7.92 mm, or similar to the Russian M-43 cartridge. (German caliber designation was based on the bore diameter. Rifling grooves of German VOLLMER MKb 35 bores were shallower than those of Soviet 7.62 x 39 mm firearms. First mass-produced one was SKS carbine, design of SERGEY G. SIMONOV in 1945).

Since 1938 the cartridge overall length was extended to 58 mm and as late as in 1942 the bullet diameter was reduced to the "Western" diameter .308"/ 7.83 mm, while the caliber designation became as 7.62 x 39 mm GeCo. German Third Reich was, however, just about adopting the 7.9 x 33 mm Polte cartridge, because of it's already standard size of bullet, rifle bore and rifling grooves, along with the case head and extractor groove dimensions similar to those of 7.9 x 57 mm Mauser case. GeCo had the production capacity of MANNLICHER-CARCANO cases, but all the other German producers of rifle caliber cartridges had the machinery adjusted for MAUSER case heads. Polte was biggest of them, having plants everywhere in The Reich, including the most remote Germany's provinces, like Poland.

Bullet of GeCo cartridge M 35 weighed 9 grams, but it's dimensions were similar to projectile of Russian 7.62 mm M-43 cartridge. Russians were copied the German economy bullet S.m.E. (with an iron core) used in Pistolenpatrone 43 since the very start of mass-production. GeCo cartridges were peacetime products with lead-filled bullets. Those samples, stolen by some Comintern agent and delivered to Soviet-Russia, were made during 1934 - 38 era, since there were no more many communists at large (or even alive) in Germany since 1938. Overall length of cartridge tells also tales about pre-1938 design. O.A.L. of Russian M-43 cartridge is the same 55 millimeters.

GeCo 7.62 x 39 cartridges were designed exclusively for the abortive VOLLMER M 35 Maschinenkarabiner; the very first German assault rifle. There were actually three models of Vollmer machine carbines made since 1934 until 1938, but they were all too fine (read: expensive) arms for military issue, even for the special troops, with their all-machined and hand-fitted parts. Carbines had action with annular gas piston around the barrel, behind the muzzle, and too many delicate parts. Heeres Waffenamt (Weaponry Office of German armed forces) turned down the last, and most complicated, "A 35/III" carbine in 30th August 1938.

[REMOV]

Thank you Remov. I stand corrected. Its so nice to have a rational debate without resorting to name calling.You know every weapon is a compilation of old (existing) and new ideas. Naturally we can take the AK to pieces and component after component trying to find some similarities to the previous guns and - we'll find it. Regardless of some parts which came from other designs the whole credit still goes to M.Kalashnikov to unite them into one brilliant assault weapon.

I know the disadvantages and advantages of the AK, but in my opinion you should always give'em together, never get focused only on one of them.

[Durandal]

I'm wondering what everyone's opinion would be on the following question:

Had the STG44 NOT been developed.......would the AK47 exist in its current format, and why?

That might almost be too logical...

[RomanS]

Remov wrote,

I'm afraid it's not true. The Greman assault rifle influenced Russian designs (not only Kalashnikov's also other guns competed with KB-P-580), but it's just superficial similiarities (curved magazine, a little bit similar shape).

Thank you Remov. I stand corrected. Its so nice to have a rational debate without resorting to name calling. And from a real expert as well.

So many questions permskiiomon, but you have yet to answer mine.

Its one thing to name yourself after a military unit and use various military weapons on a range but when you start alluding to the effectiveness of these weapons in combat, or lack of as the case maybe, I have to wonder where and when you received your experience.

Name myself after a family member served with the unit.

I'm not always on the range my friend.

No I never shot at a human before. Thank GOD. Did you kill a lot of enemies in your life?

Members of my family come from military, and believe me I've picked their brains since I was little. Not to mention best friends are with Special Russian Units, and when I need to find an answer, or ask them to show me a technique, I ASK THEM FIRST.


The only difference between me and a regular soldier is that he gets to run a lot more, and only practice with his country's weapons.

Never used a weapon in combat. But I must say that I used it in the "field" a lot more than most of the soldiers.

I've been into weapons since I was 5, like most of the boys. In order to summ all the guns I've tried, it would be easier to name the ones I havent.

I'm friends with Kalashnikov's family, Dragunov, and other names from Izhmash/Izhmech you've never heard of. Read Kalashnikov magazines to find out about me and my friends.

So I think I can bravely say, i know what the hell I'm talking about when it comes to weapons.

[RomanS]

I wonder where would we be now, if CHINESE NEVER INVETED THE GUN POWDER!

Or God invented us all

[RomanS]

Im more surprised with the fact that Permskii argued for over 3pages without using the word cocksucker.

He did, just vailed in stupid comments like:


In fact everytime I shoot the M4 or M16, out of 6 mags, there will be at least one jam.

This is the most inane sh*t...

Why lie, and call it stupid comment.

I have friends here to prove it. He actually a member on this board.

[Ratamacue]

In fact everytime I shoot the M4 or M16, out of 6 mags, there will be at least one jam.

Take better care of your M4 or M16.

[RomanS]

Take better care of your M4 or M16.

And have very good ammo.

[bas]

As someone with a passion for both Russian and German weapons, and who also owns 2 MP-44's and has handled Type 56's (Chinese AK-47's)

I would like to add my observations and some corrections:

Facts:
1. Both MP-44 and AK-47 are gas operated.
2. Both have a one piece gas piston and bolt carrier.
3. Function defines form and the curved magazines are caused by the sloped shape of the cartridge.
4. AK-47 uses a rotating bolt while the MP-44 uses a tilting bolt

Observations:
1. Both the AK-47 and MP-44 use coiled wire springs in their mechanism, for the first time I have seen in designs from either nations.
2. The fire selector on the MP-44 pushes through from side to side while the AK-47 selector is part of the saftey.


You know every weapon is a compilation of old (existing) and new ideas. Naturally we can take the AK to pieces and component after component trying to find some similarities to the previous guns and - we'll find it. Regardless of some parts which came from other designs the whole credit still goes to M.Kalashnikov to unite them into one brilliant assault weapon.

And that's the truth (although some would say he had a fair amount of help from his fellow desidners).

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Permskiiomon wrote,

The only difference between me and a regular soldier is that he gets to run a lot more, and only practice with his country's weapons.


No. The difference between you and a regular soldier, or any soldier for that matter, is that they serve their country whereas you serve yourself. They wear they're uniform with pride whereas you wear yours to 'look cool'. They learn and refine they're weapons skills as a matter of professional necessity whereas you 'play' with weapons merely for '****s and giggles'.


I'm not always on the range my friend.

And to think I'd pictured you having no life other than sitting in a dimly lit room, whacking off over the latest Kalishnikov magazine whilst 'polishing your barrel'.


Never used a weapon in combat. But I must say that I used it in the "field" a lot more than most of the soldiers.


rofl

[RomanS]

Permskiiomon wrote,

The only difference between me and a regular soldier is that he gets to run a lot more, and only practice with his country's weapons.


No. The difference between you and a regular soldier, or any soldier for that matter, is that they serve their country whereas you serve yourself. They wear they're uniform with pride whereas you wear yours to 'look cool'. They learn and refine they're weapons skills as a matter of professional necessity whereas you 'play' with weapons merely for '****s and giggles'.


I'm not always on the range my friend.

And to think I'd pictured you having no life other than sitting in a dimly lit room, whacking off over the latest Kalishnikov magazine whilst 'polishing your barrel'.


Never used a weapon in combat. But I must say that I used it in the "field" a lot more than most of the soldiers.


rofl

But you skiped my other comments and questions.

How many enemies did you kill with your Steyer Aug?

[RomanS]

No. The difference between you and a regular soldier, or any soldier for that matter, is that they serve their country whereas you serve yourself. They wear they're uniform with pride whereas you wear yours to 'look cool'. They learn and refine they're weapons skills as a matter of professional necessity whereas you 'play' with weapons merely for '****s and giggles'.

Serving your country, is not always wearing a military uniform and being listed in military. I serve mine in a different way. Though I can't legaly join to personal medical problems, I financially support those who regulary go to Chechnya and fight for Russia. To me, that is serving my country in other way.


And to think I'd pictured you having no life other than sitting in a dimly lit room, whacking off over the latest Kalishnikov magazine whilst 'polishing your barrel'.

No, my life is much more exiting than this. I get paid to make video games that a lot of people buy, and collect royaltee points for each copy we sell so I can enjoy all this expansive toys.

As for Kalashnikov magazine, how do you jerk off on the articles written about yourself and your friends? Interesting..

And it K A L A S H N I K O V by the way. not Kalishnikov.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Permskiiomon wrote,

Serving your country, is not always wearing a military uniform and being listed in military. I serve mine in a different way. Though I can't legaly join to personal medical problems, I financially support those who regulary go to Chechnya and fight for Russia. To me, that is serving my country in other way.


Whoah. Beep beep, back the truck up. Didn't you say;

The only difference between me and a regular soldier is that he gets to run a lot more, and only practice with his country's weapons.

and


Never used a weapon in combat. But I must say that I used it in the "field" a lot more than most of the soldiers.

So what medical reason keeps you from doing everything a regular soldier does except run?. Because in my humble experience theres a lot of activities more physically demanding than running in an army. But according to you the only difference is you don't run. Interesting.......




As for Kalashnikov magazine, how do you jerk off on the articles written about yourself and your friends? Interesting..

Read Freud, that might help.




No, my life is much more exiting than this. I get paid to make video games that a lot of people buy, and collect royaltee points for each copy we sell so I can enjoy all this expansive toys.


Ironically my next guess would have been computer game playing wannabe.......

Oh, and its E X P E N S I V E not expansive,
R O Y A L T Y not royaltee,
E X C I T I N G not exiting,
and S T E Y R not steyer.

I thought you at least would have got the last one right being such a weapons expert.

[RomanS]

Permskiiomon wrote,

Serving your country, is not always wearing a military uniform and being listed in military. I serve mine in a different way. Though I can't legaly join to personal medical problems, I financially support those who regulary go to Chechnya and fight for Russia. To me, that is serving my country in other way.


Whoah. Beep beep, back the truck up. Didn't you say;

The only difference between me and a regular soldier is that he gets to run a lot more, and only practice with his country's weapons.

and


Never used a weapon in combat. But I must say that I used it in the "field" a lot more than most of the soldiers.

So what medical reason keeps you from doing everything a regular soldier does except run?. Because in my humble experience theres a lot of activities more physically demanding than running in an army. But according to you the only difference is you don't run. Interesting.......




As for Kalashnikov magazine, how do you jerk off on the articles written about yourself and your friends? Interesting..

Read Freud, that might help.




No, my life is much more exiting than this. I get paid to make video games that a lot of people buy, and collect royaltee points for each copy we sell so I can enjoy all this expansive toys.


Ironically my next guess would have been computer game playing wannabe.......

Oh, and its E X P E N S I V E not expansive,
R O Y A L T Y not royaltee,
E X C I T I N G not exiting,
and S T E Y R not steyer.

I thought you at least would have got the last one right being such a weapons expert.

Ngati

I was diagnosed with diabetes at an early age :|
My life without insulin will be over.


Ironically my next guess would have been computer game playing wannabe

Im not a wanabe, I'm an artist. I create things for video games. Wanabe is a different type of meaning.

I didnt mean to offend you with spelling. My spelling is not the greatest, because I wasn't born in USA.

However mispeling a name of a legend should be corrected.

[anonymous individual]

Permskii, you have to admit that Kalishnikov is hard to spell. :D That is why I copied and pasted that name. ;)

Does anymone have any idea that the stg44's concept/design was forming when Russia and Germany still have their alliances in weaponry before WW2 started?

[bas]

Does anymone have any idea that the stg44's concept/design was forming when Russia and Germany still have their alliances in weaponry before WW2 started?

The concept behind a weapon firing an intermediate cartridge was forming after the WWI and a lot of work was done on it in the 1930's. It is currently believed that the M43 round was based on the 7.93x39 Geco proto-type intermediate round. But it is not known how the Russians got hold of it. Industrial espionage?

http://www.gunpics.net/articles/792kurtz.html

[pretorian669]

Some Israeli gear...
http://community.webshots.com/s/image9/7/4/61/128370461mlnNwx_ph.jpg

http://community.webshots.com/s/image11/7/5/21/128370521RBQaRC_ph.jpg

http://community.webshots.com/s/image9/7/5/68/128370568hRlPof_ph.jpg

http://community.webshots.com/s/image9/7/7/46/128370746nugkmD_ph.jpg

http://community.webshots.com/s/image8/7/13/6/128371306EuyzFL_ph.jpg

http://community.webshots.com/s/image10/7/12/32/128371232nrjCGX_ph.jpg

http://community.webshots.com/s/image10/7/2/40/128370240IYBiKt_ph.jpg

More at : http://community.webshots.com/user/pretorian669100

[M_S]

Ngati Tumatuenga

What's your problem? even though i find permskiiomon annoying i dont throw that much **** at him p-)

Let's make this simple

How many AK-47 is there?
How many Steyr is there?

I guess building a Steyr requiers an amount of resources and time to build like what..10 Ak-47:s?

And for what a 2mm tighter group on a piece of paper?

Ak is better suited for war conditions, while Steyr is too fancy..(or maybe just ugly) p-)

[ArmedPacifist]

http://www.ariane-info.com/f-cdn.gif

http://www.bfo.no/Offisersbladet/2001/nr%207-8/c7a1.jpg

http://www.diemaco.com/images/sal-c7a1.gif

C7A1

Magazine in second picture no longer in use.

http://www.diemaco.com/images/c7a2.gif

C7A2

Currently Replacing The C7A1

http://world.guns.ru/assault/c8.jpg

C8 Carbine


http://www.army.dnd.ca/lf/English/Images/2_0/37.jpg

http://www.iaw.on.ca/~awoolley/c6.jpg


http://www.sfu.ca/casr/c6big.gif

C6 Machine Gun (Thank You German Engineering!)

http://www.army.dnd.ca/Essex_Kent_Scottish_Regt/EKScots/Images/pix/cac_99_5.jpg

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/LF/English/Images/2_0/39.jpg

C9 Light Machine Gun
Main difference from this and the American M249 is the Elcan optic sight.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/LF/English/Images/2_0/33.jpg

50 Cal Machine Gun.....this thing is quite something.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Permskiiomon wrote,

I was diagnosed with diabetes at an early age
My life without insulin will be over.

Well that is unfortunate. I have a family member who has the same condition. It must be extremely frustrating for you.


I didnt mean to offend you with spelling. My spelling is not the greatest, because I wasn't born in USA.

I wasn't offended. But if you correct me then vice versa.

M_S wrote,

Ak is better suited for war conditions, while Steyr is too fancy..(or maybe just ugly)

And you know this because,
a. You've used an AK in 'war' conditions.
b. You've used an Steyr AUG in 'war' conditions.
c. You've used both in 'war' conditions playing Ghost Recon/OFP etc.
d. You've used neither, but you prefer the way one 'looks' over the other which of course is the most important aspect when judging a weapons effectiveness.

Well, which is it?.

I wrote this a while ago on another thread.

There are many examples all over this site of people who've read a few books, watched the history channel, fired a few rounds on a range, etc and now believe they know more than anyone else about their chosen subject. Especially serving soldiers who have first hand experience on the subject.

Pretty much sums it up.

[Haiw]

C6 Machine Gun (Thank You German Engineering!)
As much as I'm a fan of German Engineering as well I have to admit the FN MAG was made by the Belgians...

[Roger Rabbit]

Don't think anyone has done the UK yet.

SA 80 Individual Weapon and Light Support Weapon

The LSW(L86)
http://www.army.mod.uk/img/equipment/pw/lsw.1.jpg


The SA80A2 with UGL and SUSAT
http://www.army.mod.uk/img/equipment/pw/sa80g.2.jpg


SA80A1(i think) with ironsights (L85)
http://www.army.mod.uk/img/equipment/pw/sa80.1.jpg


.5 Inch Heavy Machine Gun (L1A1)
http://www.army.mod.uk/img/equipment/pw/_5mg.2.jpg


7.62mm General Purpose Machine Gun
http://www.army.mod.uk/img/equipment/pw/gpmg.1.jpg


GPMG with tripod
http://www.army.mod.uk/img/equipment/pw/gpmg.2.jpg


5.56mm Light Machine Gun
http://www.army.mod.uk/img/equipment/pw/minimi.1.jpg

[ArmedPacifist]

C6 Machine Gun (Thank You German Engineering!)
As much as I'm a fan of German Engineering as well I have to admit the FN MAG was made by the Belgians...

I think you misunderstood.

the C6 is pretty much the MG3, which use to be the MG42, which is German.

I think you got confused with the C9/M249.

Since the C6 is belt fed and doesn't really have a magazine and all.

[Ratamacue]

C6 Machine Gun (Thank You German Engineering!)
As much as I'm a fan of German Engineering as well I have to admit the FN MAG was made by the Belgians...

I think you misunderstood.

the C6 is pretty much the MG3, which use to be the MG42, which is German.

I think you got confused with the C9/M249.

Since the C6 is belt fed and doesn't really have a magazine and all.

If I'm not mistaken, the C6 is the FN MAG, which was designed by FN, which is a Belgian company. I don't know whether the mechanism is that of the MG42 or not, but the actual MAG was designed by FN.

[ArmedPacifist]

C6 Machine Gun (Thank You German Engineering!)
As much as I'm a fan of German Engineering as well I have to admit the FN MAG was made by the Belgians...

I think you misunderstood.

the C6 is pretty much the MG3, which use to be the MG42, which is German.

I think you got confused with the C9/M249.

Since the C6 is belt fed and doesn't really have a magazine and all.

If I'm not mistaken, the C6 is the FN MAG, which was designed by FN, which is a Belgian company. I don't know whether the mechanism is that of the MG42 or not, but the actual MAG was designed by FN.

I thought he was talking about a magazine system. I wasn't aware of the actual designation of the original, it was just a guess.
Thanks for the correction.

[ArmedPacifist]

Accident

[M_S]

Permskiiomon wrote,

I was diagnosed with diabetes at an early age
My life without insulin will be over.

Well that is unfortunate. I have a family member who has the same condition. It must be extremely frustrating for you.


I didnt mean to offend you with spelling. My spelling is not the greatest, because I wasn't born in USA.

I wasn't offended. But if you correct me then vice versa.

M_S wrote,

Ak is better suited for war conditions, while Steyr is too fancy..(or maybe just ugly)

And you know this because,
a. You've used an AK in 'war' conditions.
b. You've used an Steyr AUG in 'war' conditions.
c. You've used both in 'war' conditions playing Ghost Recon/OFP etc.
d. You've used neither, but you prefer the way one 'looks' over the other which of course is the most important aspect when judging a weapons effectiveness.

Well, which is it?.

I wrote this a while ago on another thread.

There are many examples all over this site of people who've read a few books, watched the history channel, fired a few rounds on a range, etc and now believe they know more than anyone else about their chosen subject. Especially serving soldiers who have first hand experience on the subject.

Pretty much sums it up.


You dont know anything about me, you might just as well be a 14 year old kid.

As for those statements..did YOU test these weapons in "war" conditions?
While the Ak-47/74 has been battleproven in almost every continent on earth i wonder how many times a steyr have been battleproven...

[Dutchman2]

C6 Machine Gun (Thank You German Engineering!)
As much as I'm a fan of German Engineering as well I have to admit the FN MAG was made by the Belgians...

I think you misunderstood.

the C6 is pretty much the MG3, which use to be the MG42, which is German.

I think you got confused with the C9/M249.

Since the C6 is belt fed and doesn't really have a magazine and all.



If I'm not mistaken, the C6 is the FN MAG, which was designed by FN, which is a Belgian company. I don't know whether the mechanism is that of the MG42 or not, but the actual MAG was designed by FN.

I thought he was talking about a magazine system. I wasn't aware of the actual designation of the original, it was just a guess.
Thanks for the correction.

The system of the FN MAG (M240/ C6) is bassed on the locking knee from the Browning B.A.R., but then upside down. The feeding mechanism is a copy from the MG42, and the barrel changing device is taken from the Bren/ Brno 26 LMG. The MAG is basicly a mix from the best designs together.

greets,

Roger

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

M_S wrote,

You dont know anything about me


No I don't. But you made a definitive statement along the lines of,

Ak is better suited for war conditions, while Steyr is too fancy..(or maybe just ugly)

So I asked where your knowledge of 'suitability' came from.


you might just as well be a 14 year old kid

Could well be, but if you do a little research you might find out.


As for those statements..did YOU test these weapons in "war" conditions?

Well that would depend on YOUR interpretation of 'test' and 'war' conditions. But until we figure that out suffice to say i've 'used' both in an operational enviroment.


While the Ak-47/74 has been battleproven in almost every continent on earth i wonder how many times a steyr have been battleproven..

Instead of wondering why not ask?. By my reckoning there are about nine pers on this board who are/were serving infantry soldiers in four different armys who have used the Steyr AUG. At least four whilst on operations. There may well be more but I haven't got around to researching it.

[anonymous individual]

I heard that the Steyr AUG is not very ergonomic. For those of you who have used it, could please you comment on that?

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Its well balanced. The safety can be manipulated without taking your master hand of the pistol grip. The cocking handle sits just above the fore grip in line with the non master hand. It 'points' naturally if you know what I mean. The magazine catch is easily manipulated. Its size makes it excellent to handle in MOUT, vehicles, CQB or close country.
It can be a little disconcerting to use if you've never handled a bullpup configured weapon before but once you get used to it you won't notice the difference.

[MEGR]

Its well balanced. The safety can be manipulated without taking your master hand of the pistol grip. The cocking handle sits just above the fore grip in line with the non master hand. It 'points' naturally if you know what I mean. The magazine catch is easily manipulated. Its size makes it excellent to handle in MOUT, vehicles, CQB or close country.
It can be a little disconcerting to use if you've never handled a bullpup configured weapon before but once you get used to it you won't notice the difference.

Don't most augs come with an attached scope? If so, how are those optics? Personally I've never seen an Aug with Iron sights.

[Flagg]

Don't most augs come with an attached scope?

Yes.....all AUG Steyrs comes with a 1.5X scope that is an integral part of the receiver group.....unless you are fortunate enough to have a Steyr(receiver group) with a picitinny rail

The reticle is a "doughnut" with fine crosshairs inside of it.

Shorter distance targets.....fill the doughnut and squeeze.

Longer distance targets....use cross-hairs within doughnut.


If so, how are those optics?

For 1970's technology...it's not bad, and was way ahead of it's time when designed....as this is 2004(30 years later) it could use a wider field of view and better low-light capability. Otherwise can't complain.


Personally I've never seen an Aug with Iron sights.

All Steyrs with the integrated optics have built-in iron sights on top.......but to be honest I have never used them.

Even at very short distance(under 25M), short exposure snap-shooting I've never used the iron sights and have always used the optics, even at night shoots.

Just my experience and opinion.

[digrar]

The integral sight is X1.5 so it's a battle sight. Put man in circle, squeeze trigger.
The iron sights are more a back up in case of damage to the optics, they also have luminous dots on the posts that were been usefull before we got our night aiming devices.
Our donut doesn't have the cross hairs inside it, they run from the edge of the sight picture to the edge of the donut, so a lot of us zero the weapon so the top or bottom of the circle and the verticle line form a cross, we call it cupping or capping.
It's a compact weapon, easy to learn how to use, easy to strip and assemble, a pain in the arse to clean (I hate cleaning weapons) but easy to maintain in good order in the field, it is robust, and we have managed to modulise it a bit in recent years to the extent that we can now fit infra red night aiming devices, better optics/ night vision optics and UGLs.

[Red]

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6356/ak.jpg
The AK was introduced after i left the army
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/9823/hk_g3.jpg
This is the weapon we used
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2979/m60mg-sa.jpg
We were also given American hand me down M-60's
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/725/gpmg.jpg
This is a gun that i fell in love with
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/4724/051003m.jpg
This is the best pistol i have fired.The Browning 45HP

[GazB]

Thank you Remov. I stand corrected. Its so nice to have a rational debate without resorting to name calling. And from a real expert as well.


From a real expert... I assume you mean as opposed to "much vaunted russian apologist and armchair expert".

Can you point out the irrational part of my post... and also the name calling in my post... now that I have pointed out the name calling in yours.

BTW thanks for the post Remov... most of my non enthusiast friends see curved mags and immediately assume a relationship between two designs.

The simple reality is that a curved mag just means the bullet the gun fires doesn't have straight (parallel) sides.

And also to reply to Ngati:


Well well, even the much vaunted russian apologist and armchair expert Gazb can't be sure.

No one can be 100% sure of anything in history as there is bias everywhere. The reality is that the Russian designers had no problem admitting to copying this or that feature if they thought it was a good improvement for one of their designs. They also had few reservations admitting what was copied and what wasn't. This is why I am pretty sure the AK wasn't a direct ripoff of any one particular German weapon. Some German weapons influenced the design but then so did many Soviet weapons.


Note won't all of you that I did say almost.


Almost a direct ripoff suggests that only minor features were not copied. I think it is accepted that the reverse is true that minor design features influenced the AK design but it is far from a copy.


Fought in 'war' like conditions with a G-36 in say, Grozny have we?.


Yes, of course... unless you take a weapon into a real war you won't know how it handles. If it repeatedly malfunctions at a test range when clean you really can't tell whether it will fail in combat under much harsher conditions with dodgy ammo and not being cleaned on a regular basis. Maybe it will not malfunction at all in a trench or after being dipped in a river or two.


Had the STG44 NOT been developed.......would the AK47 exist in its current format, and why?


You need to refine your question a bit more. Even assuming the STG44 never existed are you also assuming that the weapons that led to its design never existed either? The MP43 or the MKb 42 are very similar weapons. (In fact the STG44 is the MP44 with a different designation... ie storm gun (assault gun or rifle) as opposed to Machine Pistol.

The Russian development of fully automatic weapons had already looked at a weapon in the assault rifle class in the Federov Avtomat. (ie it had a 25 round mag, was capable of full auto and single fire). Before WWII there was some exploration of smaller calibre weapons and there was a 5.45mm round developed before the war which suggests that lower impulse ammo was considered. This was dropped during the war due to the problems of introducing a new round as well as the new weapons required to take real advantage of the new round. During the war a more conservative new round was developed called the M1943 round used by the SKS first and then later by the AK during the postwar period. By the time the M1943 round was developed it was because of the relative problems of the Tokarev and the Simonov automatic rifles developed just before the war. The smaller round solved those problems which was largely because of the power and size of the standard round of the time.

The AK wasn't developed because of the STG44, the M1943 round was designed to give Soviet troops range to engage enemy troops carrying longer range rounds in automatic rifles to take back some of the advantage lost.

When your troops are all armed with bolt action rifles then the enemy switches to SMGs and tries to get in close where your range advantage no longer matters and their firepower advantage makes them better armed than you. Your solution is of course to increase your firepower while trying for more range than he has. If the solution isn't STG44s then it has to be FG42s. You have the range and the firepower but all the problems of battlerifles trying to be SMGs... ie too big, too heavy and too powerful.

If the enemy is already producing the AK type ammo he will eventually arrive at an AK type weapon anyway. The Ak is just a longer range SMG.

In the Immediate post war period most western countries had battle rifles with secondary full auto capability like eventually the FN FAL which was preceeded by CETME weapons and some models of the M14 preceeded by M1 Garand rifles as well as the German G3. So to suggest that the German adoption of the FG42 type weapons over the STG44s might have made a difference is a bit silly.

The AK fit in with the Soviet doctrine whereas a battlerifle didn't, for general issue. The existance or otherwise of the STG44 made no difference in that regard.


I also think I'm more likely to give more weight to Ngati's opinions, or anyone else with actual operational experience, over range-only experience.


Of course... any grunt that goes in the field and fires a few rounds at human targets will know much more about Soviet weapon design than some dumb armchair expert. :roll:


It was NOT a copy of German 7.9 x 33 mm Pistolenpatrone 43 (= Polte Versuchspatrone 38), but cloned from earlier GECO cartridge, designed by Director WINTER of a firm GUSTAV GENSCHOW & Co. A.G. in 1934/35.

Nobody know (or tell), how the Russian designers got those rare GeCo cartridges in their hands during the second year of Russo-German War, but they evidently had them!

As part of many agreements the Germans had with the Russians there was much work done in the Soviet Union by German specialists in developing weapons that they weren't allowed to develop at home. The information shared was limited... the Germans never saw the best the Soviets had like Mig-1s and T-34s, but much older models, and vice versa, but there was a lot of collaboration as well and that included on small arms design.



There are many examples all over this site of people who've read a few books, watched the history channel, fired a few rounds on a range, etc and now believe they know more than anyone else about their chosen subject. Especially serving soldiers who have first hand experience on the subject.

And those serving soldiers forget everything they know when they leave the service... that is why when an armchair expert like me reads the books they write I learn nothing at all. The fact that the writer of a book might be writing about a real war means nothing when I am talking to someone who has really served their country... I guess ten years sitting in a room with radar screens at Thule means that person who has served knows so much more about Russian small arms than I ever will.

BTW nce pics ArmedPacifist... It reminds me of a friend of mine that served a few years ago that liked the C7, which I see you have called the C9. Handy the armed forces of each country calling weapons by their own names. Took me ages to work out he was talking about an FN Minimi, which you have called a C9, so it is C9 to the Canadians, M249 to the Americans and C7 to the Kiwis.

[soma]

Stop ****ing aruging and post pictures.

[Spearin]

View through the C79 Elcan Optical Sight (used on C7A1 and C9A1):

http://www.opcoin.net/team/argyll/c79scope.jpg

View through the C6 GPMG (FN MAG) sights:

http://www.opcoin.net/team/argyll/c6sights.jpg

[REMOV]

I guess building a Steyr requiers an amount of resources and time to build like what..10 Ak-47:s?It's not true. In my opinion Steyr requires less amount of resources than AK or AKM, but costs are generated by know-how and more expensive machinery.
Ak is better suited for war conditions, while Steyr is too fancy..(or maybe just ugly)Hmm... you know I like the shape of the Steyr AUG, universality as well the features of this assault rifle, but you accidentally got the point.

The Steyr AUG was intensive tested by French (1er RPIMa, LE GCP (Foreign Legion Groupe Commando Parachutistes)), Greek and even Polish special forces and... every time was rejected. The problem was durability of the plastic frame (in Greece, there were problems with very low temperatures over -35'C). Jagdkommandos' opinion were well, very diplomatic, but in fact even they made negative remarks. French SF units which don't so much like their FA MASes also havily tested the AUG and rejected it. Naturally special forces have higher, extacing even standards than any other units, but...

Lots of thanks goes to Andrzej K. (livin' SF unit encyclopaedia ;) ) for tonnes of informations

[perdurabo]

So ppl how your dream asault rifle look like? :)
ammo type system barrel length bullpup/clasical/smthing else etc??

[Dutchman2]

The Steyer AUG was tested by the Dutch army, to replace the FN FAL in 1994. It was tested together with the R4 (South African Galil copy), the Colt M16A2 and the Diemaco C7A1. The Steyer was tested as the best rifle, but was rejected becauses Austria didn't wanted to buy some stuff from Holland, so the Diemaco was issued (Canada bought two airplanes from us).
The Germans wanted a folluw up for the G3, and again, the AUG was tested best, but Heckler & Koch had a massive lobby together with Dynamite Nobel to prevent the issue of a foreign rifle. Well, the G36 isn't a bad rifle.

[Dutchman2]

So ppl how your dream asault rifle look like? :)
ammo type system barrel length bullpup/clasical/smthing else etc??

A G36, with a R.A.S. handguard (for mounting stuff), and a R.A.S. rail on top of the receiver (tham means that the standard optic's have to go), Trijicon ACOG scope and caliber 6,8mm, because the 5,56 is to weak. Oh, attach a AG-36 40mm grenade launcher for me to!
I think that will be a nice set up. A relaible, accurate and maintenace friendly rifle, with enough firepower to get enemy dieing ir running woot !

[ArmedPacifist]

Man, so much confusion because each of us has designated the same weapon with different names. Now nobody knows what the hell everyone else is talking about.

Also, can you guys stop ****ing bickering about which rifle is better?

This is about posting pics of your countries weapons, not arguing about them.

[-Max2-]

French SF units which don't so much like their FA MASes also havily tested the AUG and rejected it.

Indeed. Btw, French SF should receive M4A1s SOPMOD to replace theirs FAMAS this year...

[MEGR]

Thanks for the help digrar and flagg...

[Sorbas2000]

Bulgarian weapons:


9x19mm Arcus-98DA
http://www.arcus-bg.com/images/products/firearms/arcus_98dan.jpg

9x19mm Shipka SMG
http://www.arsenal-bg.com/images/defense_police/9x19smg.jpg

40mm Arcus 40 MGL
http://www.arcus-bg.com/products/closesupport/2_arcus_40_mgl/images/40_MGL%20copy.jpg

40mm Arcus UBGL
http://www.arcus-bg.com/products/closesupport/1_arcus_40_ubgl/images/40_UBGL_%20AK.jpg

5.56mm AR-M1
http://www.arsenal-bg.com/images/defense_police/5,56ar-m1.jpg

5.56mm AR-M4SF
http://www.arsenal-bg.com/images/defense_police/5,56ar-m4sf.jpg

5.56mm AR-M9F
http://www.arsenal-bg.com/images/defense_police/5,56ar-m9f.jpg

7.61x51mm MG-M1
http://www.arsenal-bg.com/images/defense_police/7,62x51mg-m1.jpg

40mm Arsenal UBGL-M1
http://www.arsenal-bg.com/images/defense_police/UBGL-M1.jpg

40mm Avalanche (Lavina)
http://www.arsenal-bg.com/images/defense_police/40mm-lavina.jpg

RPG-7V2 (Arsenal ATGL-2)
http://www.arsenal-bg.com/images/defense_police/RPG-7V1.jpg

[Dutchman2]

Nice post Sorbas2000! Seems Bulgarian is realy into the Natospecs! 5,56mm Kalsash, 7,62 PK :hug: woot ! Great to see!

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Gazb wrote,

From a real expert... I assume you mean as opposed to "much vaunted russian apologist and armchair expert".

Wow, can't get much past you, eh?.




Can you point out the irrational part of my post... and also the name calling in my post... now that I have pointed out the name calling in yours.

Gosh, that paranoia is really starting to kick in isn't it. Considering that was directed at Permi perhaps you want to up the medication.


Yes, of course... unless you take a weapon into a real war you won't know how it handles. If it repeatedly malfunctions at a test range when clean you really can't tell whether it will fail in combat under much harsher conditions with dodgy ammo and not being cleaned on a regular basis. Maybe it will not malfunction at all in a trench or after being dipped in a river or two.


So you agree with Permi that the G-36 family of weapons would be unsuitable in 'war' conditions such as Grozny?.


Of course... any grunt that goes in the field and fires a few rounds at human targets will know much more about Soviet weapon design than some dumb armchair expert.

Gee, you really do have an inferiority complex about soldiers in general and 'grunts' in particular don't you.


And those serving soldiers forget everything they know when they leave the service...

Gosh, that is a sweeping generalisation and a half isn't it. Got any evidence to back it up?.


that is why when an armchair expert like me reads the books they write I learn nothing at all.

No. The reason you don't learn anything is because you have a closed minded approach to serving/former soldiers which is evidenced by your definitive statements.


I guess ten years sitting in a room with radar screens at Thule means that person who has served knows so much more about Russian small arms than I ever will.


Where'd that come from?.


Took me ages to work out he was talking about an FN Minimi, which you have called a C9, so it is C9 to the Canadians, M249 to the Americans and C7 to the Kiwis.

The FN Minimi has always been called the C-9 in NZDF service. But hey what would I know, I'm just a 'grunt' who goes into the field and fires a 'few' rounds at human targets. :roll:

[droopy]

Searched for romanian weapons guess what there is total secrecy :bash:

[Macs.]

MG43:

http://dboy.cpgl.net/H&K/mg43/mg43-1.jpg

http://dboy.cpgl.net/H&K/mg43/00.jpg

http://dboy.cpgl.net/H&K/mg43/test.jpg

G36k:

There is nothing beautifuller then a G36k with drum mag and EOtech.

http://www.military-page.de/einheit/ksk/bild_afg_01.jpg

http://www.military-page.de/einheit/ksk/bild_g36k_01.jpg

[Flagg]

http://www.arsenal-bg.com/images/defense_police/5,56ar-m4sf.jpg

Now THAT I really like....if the build quality is there and a 40mm could be added without making it too awkward...I'd carry it.


Of course... any grunt that goes in the field and fires a few rounds at human targets will know much more about Soviet weapon design than some dumb armchair expert.

??? lose the ego

As I said, I am inclined to give more WEIGHT to an argument presented by someone with operational experience....as living with weapons day after day in challenging conditions can often provide more valuable input than just specifications on paper or range experience.

I never said I negate the opinion of others as you implied.

[ZoneOne]

http://www.military-page.de/einheit/ksk/bild_g36k_01.jpg


this guy looks like airsoft

[GazB]

So you agree with Permi that the G-36 family of weapons would be unsuitable in 'war' conditions such as Grozny?.

I have never even seen a real G-36 and have no opinion on the weapon. Lots of people seem to think it is the best gun in the world, but then I remember they said that about the SA-80 when it first came out too. I am sure in ten years after it has been used in a real war and been through a few different climates then there will be enough opinions around to form a real opinion. Till then I do not know.


Gee, you really do have an inferiority complex about soldiers in general and 'grunts' in particular don't you.

No, I don't. I have family members that drive cars every day but that doesnt' make them car experts. There are plenty of grunts that are not interested in firearms. It is just a tool they use in their particular line of work. To suggest they are somehow all powerful gun experts is rubbish and most of them that are not interested in firearms will probably agree. There are no doubt some who are interested in firearms and can be considered experts but I really don't see how someone who has talked to several users of the weapon and also read up on the experiences of others as well as read the information by other arm chair experts doesn't rate a mention compared to any grunt that has ever served.

An interesting statistic is that during WWII a large percentage... something like 40% from memory of American soldiers didn't fire a single shot in combat. Wonder how they would know how reliable their weapons were. ( I am not picking on American soldiers here... I would assume numbers for other armed forces were similar under similar conditions.)


Gosh, that is a sweeping generalisation and a half isn't it. Got any evidence to back it up?.


I am not the one suggesting that armchair experts have nothing of value to contribute. If I read the memoirs of a soldier that went to a real war and I am not stupid then that means for me to not gain any insight into what it was like and how his equipment performed then he can't have included it in the book. Or are you now suggesting that armchair experts can't read?



Where'd that come from?.


The blanket claim that the opinion of anyone who has served must include everyone that has served. Those who have very little to do with firearms except basic training have served too you know... but their opinions of Soviet small arms design are way more important than any armchair expert like me right?



I never said I negate the opinion of others as you implied.

So Ngati's field experience with an STG44 is what gives it weight? Wonder what field experience with the STG44 you think he has?

[Flagg]

So Ngati's field experience with an STG44 is what gives it weight?

No.......Ngati's relatively unbiased and balanced view on a number of different weapons systems, based on his own first hand experiences and that of his peers, in both the NZ and allied armies, operationally and on the range, without pushing an agenda is what gives it weight.

Comparing him to you is like comparing an employed technician with a tool "enthusiast". Whereas his concern is finding the best tool for the job with limited bias, yours appears to be in promoting a particular "brand" of tool.


Wonder what field experience with the STG44 you think he has?

I suspect he has a bit more range time than you with that particular tool.

For someone who presents himself to be such a tool enthusiast, I found your reluctance to redeem the offer Ngati presented you to visit Waiuru to have a play in the "toolbox" quite odd......

It was like reading about someone who talks about screwing a supermodel, but when given the opportunity to actually root her, turns her down....how odd.

[J-10]

QSZ-92 pistol (China)

http://www.armysky.com/bbs/UploadFile/200311923195623423.jpg
http://www.armysky.com/bbs/UploadFile/200311923202491503.jpg
QSZ-92 pistol in 9x19mm, with laser pointer mounted on the rail under the barrel. Capacity: 15 rounds

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/qsz-92-5_8.jpg
http://www.armysky.com/bbs/UploadFile/200311923221878758.jpg
http://image2.sina.com.cn/jc/pc/2004-05-11/29/U37P27T29D1015F461DT20040511134431.jpg
QSZ-92 pistol in 5.8mm
Type: Double Action
Calibers: 5.8mm
Weight unloaded: 760 g
Length: 190 mm
Capacity: 20 rounds

The QSZ-92 pistol is a most recent development of the Chinese state arms factories, and, apparently, it is now adopted by the PLA (Chinese people's Liberation Army) forces. QSZ-92 pistol is available in two versions, with the only difference being caliber: one is chambered for most common 9x19mm Luger / Parabellum ammunition (QSZ-92-9), and another is chambered for proprietary 5.8mm ammunition with bottle-necked case and pointed bullets (QSZ-92-5.8). The development of the QSZ-92 pistol apparently began circa 1994, and it is in limited service with PLA since the late 1990s.

The QSZ-92 is a short recoil operated, locked breech pistol. It uses a rotating barrel to lock and unlock the slide on recoil. Frame of the QSZ-92 pistol is made from polymer. Trigger mechanism is Double Action, with external hammer and ambidextrous safety / decocker lever, mounted on both sides of the frame. Dual stack magazine holds 15 rounds of ammunition in either caliber. Front part of the frame under the barrel is shaped as an accessory rail to accept laser sights or flashlights. Fixed sights have luminous inserts for low light conditions.

http://www.armysky.com/bbs/UploadFile/200311923163855675.jpg
http://www.armysky.com/bbs/UploadFile/20031192317337830.jpg
Type 84 pistol
Calibers: 7.62mm
Weight unloaded: 380 g
Length: 121 mm
Capacity: 6 rounds
This small pistol was designed specially for civil pilot/staffs, it can shot terrorist's head, but couldn't break plane's window.

http://www.zgjunshi.com/images/5_8mm.jpg
Type 95 5.8mm short rifle

http://muri.y365.com/pp/88.jpg
QJY88 5.8mm MG

http://www.pengpeng.com.cn/qiang/10.jpg
Type 85 12.7mm MG

http://bbs.pladaily.com.cn/article/Upfiles/200432275684.jpg
All 5.8 mm

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Flagg wrote,

Quote:
So Ngati's field experience with an STG44 is what gives it weight?


No.......Ngati's relatively unbiased and balanced view on a number of different weapons systems, based on his own first hand experiences and that of his peers, in both the NZ and allied armies, operationally and on the range, without pushing an agenda is what gives it weight.

Comparing him to you is like comparing an employed technician with a tool "enthusiast". Whereas his concern is finding the best tool for the job with limited bias, yours appears to be in promoting a particular "brand" of tool.

Quote:
Wonder what field experience with the STG44 you think he has?


I suspect he has a bit more range time than you with that particular tool.

For someone who presents himself to be such a tool enthusiast, I found your reluctance to redeem the offer Ngati presented you to visit Waiuru to have a play in the "toolbox" quite odd......

It was like reading about someone who talks about screwing a supermodel, but when given the opportunity to actually root her, turns her down....how odd.

rofl

Aw ****, that made my week.

There is nothing else I can add to this conversation. Flagg, next time I'm in Burnham, I'm buying bro.

ONWARDS!

Oh, you might like this gem from gazb,

I have taken my SLR up mountains in weather the Local Territorials cancel exercises for, and I don't have to worry about all the bollocks a grunt has to go through and spend as much time using my rifle as I like. I probably get more shooting time than most soldiers.

Now thats whats called a 'combat indicator'.

[APOCALYPSE]

Hey Perm I was wondering why does the A.K.'s that I see in Russia seem to have the barrels chiped/sawed off what is it supposed to do? :roll:

[droopy]

What`s the standard small arms caliber in the chines army 5.8mm???

[REMOV]

What`s the standard small arms caliber in the chines army 5.8mm???Russian 7,62mm x 39 M43 and, new Chinese, 5,8mm x 42 DBP87 (below).

http://www.militech.sownet.gliwice.pl/bullpup/weapon/qbz-95-97/_58mmDBP87.jpg

[REMOV]

Hey Perm I was wondering why does the A.K.'s that I see in Russia seem to have the barrels chiped/sawed off what is it supposed to do? :roll:http://www.gun-world.net/russain/kalashnikov/foreign/polish/pl4-1.jpg
This is a compensator. Theoretically it should help to stabilize the assault rifle during sustained (or burst) fire.

[fokket]

No offense, but Chinese pistol stink of knock-off

[NeedsABetterName]

You know something,most of you "gun experts" are just 10-17 year olds who claim that their age is like 30,that they've served in the military,and that they've shot just about every weapon somebody mentions.I'm not saying that I'm a gun expert,served in the military ect,but I'm stating a pretty true fact...You people need to wake up and face the facts...

[Abbyy]

Let me ruin this thread with real hi res :)

New machine gun "Pecheneg"

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/orig/d187/4.JPG

SR-2

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/orig/d187/2.JPG

SR-2 and Gurza

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/orig/d187/10.JPG

Gurza with steel plates penetrated

http://www.tassphoto.com/images/photo/orig/d187/3.JPG

[ArmedPacifist]

Where's the wood?

[5jumpchump]

I heard that the Steyr AUG is not very ergonomic. For those of you who have used it, could please you comment on that?

I tried it once . I didn't care for it much . My biggets complaint was no selector switch for full or semi auto . It's all in the trigger . Pull back half way and you fire one round . Pull all the way and it goes full auto . One word for that type of system - no :bash:

[Kampfhamster]

And now some swiss quality:

Pistole 49 aka SIG 210

http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/sig210-01.jpg

the "new" Pistole 75 aka SIG 220

http://www.gunfactory.ch/faustfw/images/occ_p220right.jpg

the old assault rifle Sturmgewehr 57 aka SIG 510

http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/sig510-01.jpg

SIG 550 aka Sturmgewehr 90 together with its little brother SIG 552

http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/sig550-01.jpg

Sturmgewehr 90 with GWA 97 (copy of the US M203)

http://www.panzergreni.ch/funktion/waffen/wfgwa.jpg

Maschinengewehr 51, more or less a copy of the german MG42

http://zem.dev.imagefinder.ch/Lists/400/2266.jpg

[Catch22]

Abby, are those black tipped bullets these new sick 7N25 rounds designed for 9x18mm Makarov? (Pistol seems to be that Gyurza or whatever is the name) I've read an article about them recently. Their AP capabilites are fearsome... p-)

[littlefrench]

Weapons used in French Army :

FAMAS F-1
http://www.combat2000shop.com/combat2000/friends_article/marine/famas/image/famas.jpg


http://www.combat2000shop.com/combat2000/friends_article/marine/famas/image/RedBerets.jpg

http://www.********************/europe/France/Armes/Famas/FAMAS_FR_23.jpg

FAMAS G-1
http://dboy.cpgl.net/France/FaMas/G1.jpg

FAMAS G-2
http://www.********************/europe/France/Armes/Famas/FAMAS_FR_10.jpg

Minimi
http://www.********************/europe/Belgique/Armes/Minimi/MINIMI_BE_01.JPG

ERYX
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/equip/infant_abc/infant/eryx/images/eryx_cat1g.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/eryx_can.jpg

MILAN
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/equip/infant_abc/infant/milan/images/milan_cat2g.jpg

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/equip/infant_abc/infant/milan/images/milan_cat1g.jpg

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/equip/infant_abc/infant/milan/images/milan_cat7g.jpg

http://www.oscmar.com/IMAGES/AAWSS/milan.jpg

Berreta 92 FS made by the Saint Etienne weapons manufactury (the french name of the berreta is PAMAS)
http://www4.osk.3web.ne.jp/~otubo/collection/teppou/teppou/beretta-m92.jpg

Fr-F1
http://infantry.kylt.ru/holod/imghol/frf1.jpg

http://www.imt.net/~mele/images/frf1-b.jpg

Fr-F2
http://le.cos.free.fr/armement/arme/fr-f2.jpg

http://www.imt.net/~mele/images/frf1-a.jpg

PGM Hecate II 12.7mm
http://le.cos.free.fr/armement/arme/hecate_ii.jpg

PGM Hecate II Nemesis
http://le.cos.free.fr/armement/arme/nemesis.jpg

[Javehn]

Zorbas2000 , how long it take you to copy entire "Arsenal" armory here ? Never mind , it's still that old chip knock of from Russian weapons . I watched couple of days ago some nice pics from "Хемус-2004" , kinda embarrasing **** ... Nothing innovative , i mean Bolgarian BMP-1 and BTR-60 took part of that exhibittion ...

[Kampfhamster]

ah, FAMAS, a friend of mine has a semiauto FAMAS. I was surprised how userfriendly it is, except the fact that it isn't very easy to handle while wearing "mickey mouse ears"

[Dutchman2]

I fired a civilian version of the FAMAS a few months ago. There are only 3 or 4 around in the Netherlands. Its a weird rifle, and after each shot, it sounds like a spring that unfolds :roll: . The distance between the sights is only 30 centimeters, and that's to short for accurate target shooting. It was fun to shoot anyway, I don't get that chance a second time I think :| !

[Kampfhamster]

Well, the sights are not really good, that's true. But they are good enough for a assault & fun rifle.

What really sucks is that the empty cartridges are pretty hard thrown out. You can't stand on the right side behind the gunner, otherwise you get shot by the empty cartridges.

[digrar]

I heard that the Steyr AUG is not very ergonomic. For those of you who have used it, could please you comment on that?

I tried it once . I didn't care for it much . My biggets complaint was no selector switch for full or semi auto . It's all in the trigger . Pull back half way and you fire one round . Pull all the way and it goes full auto . One word for that type of system - no :bash:

The double trigger presure grows on you and is easy to use in a contact as you dont have to move a selector switch, just point and squeeze the trigger a bit harder.
Our Austeyrs also have a single shot lock out button in the bottom of the trigger if you want to go that way.

[mocking_loudly_died]

I heard that the Steyr AUG is not very ergonomic. For those of you who have used it, could please you comment on that?

I tried it once . I didn't care for it much . My biggets complaint was no selector switch for full or semi auto . It's all in the trigger . Pull back half way and you fire one round . Pull all the way and it goes full auto . One word for that type of system - no :bash:

The double trigger presure grows on you and is easy to use in a contact as you dont have to move a selector switch, just point and squeeze the trigger a bit harder.
Our Austeyrs also have a single shot lock out button in the bottom of the trigger if you want to go that way.

What do you think of the AUG compared to the M16 (if you have fired both) and is the Australian army planning on a new assualt rifle in the near future?

[GazB]

For someone who presents himself to be such a tool enthusiast, I found your reluctance to redeem the offer Ngati presented you to visit Waiuru to have a play in the "toolbox" quite odd......

It was like reading about someone who talks about screwing a supermodel, but when given the opportunity to actually root her, turns her down....how odd.

Which shows how much attention you paid to the conversation.

I declined that offer because it turned out the offer wasn't a shag, it was an opportunity to talk to other guys who have learned about what it is like to shag her from instructors.

(For those who care and can't be bothered searching I thought Ngati was offering to let me fire an SVD, but it turns out what he was offering was an opportunity to talk to his fellow snipers about Soviet snipers and other potential targets. I didn't turn down firing an SVD as that was not on offer. Declining going up to talk to NZ snipers about what they thought the Soviet Snipers might do during war time hasn't really been that big a deal as I would probably learn more about it from Hist2004 and Sergey.)


I suspect he has a bit more range time than you with that particular tool.

So tell us Ngati, in your professional opinion would the AK-47 have been developed at all or would it have been a little or a lot different if the STG44 had never existed. Flagg hasn't answered whether the earlier designs like the MP43 and MKb42 existed in his little scenario so I guess you can assume either way you like... but please be clear of your decision so we can follow your logic and thought processes. (I am sure all that time in the field will serve you well.)


This is a compensator. Theoretically it should help to stabilize the assault rifle during sustained (or burst) fire.

The spoon type muzzle compensator on the AKM is designed to direct the muzzle blast up and to the right. The jet effect drives the barrel down and to the left. This is to benefit right handed shooters as the downward force stops the muzzle from climbing during full auto fire while the force to push the barrel muzzle to the left is to counteract the natural rotation of the body for a right handed shooter. (Note if your body was fixed in position and you applied a force to your right shoulder your body would turn to the right.. this compensator is designed to pull the barrel to the left to counteract that rotating force).

It is only really noticible in full auto bursts and of course it is not 100% effective.

BTW Very nice pics Abbyy.

[Carlos]

http://www.military-page.de/einheit/ksk/bild_g36k_01.jpg


this guy looks like airsoft

Actually this guy is the Real Deal.

I took this picture from a poster during a demo/fair (hence the odd angle) but it was taken during a press demonstration in the early days of the KSK (note missing bolt in gun for demo/security purposes).


There is a thin line between fake and trueness... ;)

[gregom]

Wow thx for the pics... VSS Vintorez owns. :D My dream gun.

[Carlos]

How many AK-47 is there?
How many Steyr is there?

How much interest had the former Soviet Union in "developing" Countries giving away free military aid, how much interest had Austria doing so - let's say during the period between 1965 and 1990? :roll:


The proliferation of a certain type of weapon is not necessarily a function of solely its operational use but also a mix of several other factors - such as politics and money...



...anyway the AK serves the purpose it was built for - so does the Stg. 77 aka AUG also. ;)

[REMOV]

How much interest had the former Soviet Union in "developing" Countries giving away free military aid, how much interest had Austria doing so during the period between 1965 and 1990?Ekhm... Steyr AUG was introduced in 1978 and the full manufacturing capabilities were in 1982.

[Carlos]

How much interest had the former Soviet Union in "developing" Countries giving away free military aid, how much interest had Austria doing so during the period between 1965 and 1990?Ekhm... Steyr AUG was introduced in 1978 and the full manufacturing capabilities were in 1982.

I wanted to point out the span of time the AK had available to be proliferated compared to the AUG. I was takling about the military aid that spread certain weapons over the whole world (that also includes the M16 but pretty much excludes the AUG).

Otherwise i'm pretty aware of the timeline of the Stg. 77, thanks anyway... ;)

[REMOV]

I wanted to point out the span of time the AK had available to be proliferated compared to the AUG. I know exactly what you wanted to say. But the date "1965" was strange for me, because AK/AKM was offered much sooner and the AUG much later.

[Carlos]

But the date "1965" was strange for me, because AK/AKM was offered much sooner and the AUG much later.


But that was about the time (don't nail me on the exact year) when "military aid" from both sides began to pour into Africa, South America an Asia big time - of course it started even before (Mid-50s, e.g. Ghana, Lybia, Syria and Iraq)...

[Bugalugs]

THh Steyr has a disparaging name around those who remember the old 7.62mm SLR elephant gun - they call it the "poodle shooter"

[Carlos]

I think that there is a group of operators (who grew up with battlerifles and later got issued rifles in 5.56) having/giving such names in every army.

At least I'm one of them, also... :roll:

[REMOV]

I think that there is a group of operators (who grew up with battlerifles and later got issued rifles in 5.56) having/giving such names in every army.Only the Western ones. We, people from East (ekhm... now it sound a little bit strange) were started in late 50s with 7,62mm intermediate ammo, changed to 5,45mm intermediate in 80s and then to the 5,56mm NATO in late 90s. Where's the big deal? ;)

[Carlos]

Only the Western ones.

Because they where the ones using battlerifles in between whereas the eastern world started off with a real-deal assault rifle from WW2 on...


...but we begin nitpicking. ;)