Why Ireland voted no.

[joka]

Why Ireland voted no

THE Irish government today published the fruits of an expensive, painstaking research project (http://www.dfa.ie/uploads/documents/Publications/Post%20Lisbon%20Treaty%20Referendum%20Research%20Findings/post%20lisbon%20treaty%20referendum%20research%20findings_sept08.pdf) aimed at identifying why voters rejected the Lisbon Treaty in a referendum in June. It is to the government's credit that the full study—conducted by a commercial polling firm—has been made public. The foreign minister, Micheál Martin, also has a stab at sounding objective about both yes and no voters, and what we now know about them. The biggest reason for voting no was a lack of information about the treaty, he notes. One third of all voters thought the treaty would have introduced conscription into a European army. The young voted no in large numbers, he conceded when unveiling the research, and " there were also differences between socio-economic groups".

All of this is very tactfully put, but it takes a politician down a very slippery slope indeed. Dig into the data of the research, and hotbeds of no voting include the poor, the less educated, young people and women. A third of voters bought into warnings from no campaigners that the treaty would weaken Ireland's laws against abortion, the study notes. Focus groups revealed that many people worried about Ireland losing its full-time right to an EU commissioner because they wrongly thought that would mean Ireland had no other form of voice in the EU structure. One focus group of women who abstained in the referendum found that many could not name the main political parties in Ireland. The well-educated and affluent, especially those who could answer general knowledge questions about the EU (how many countries are in it, whether Switzerland is a member, that sort of thing) were much more likely to vote yes. And so on.Economist.com (http://www.economist.com/blogs/certainideasofeurope/2008/09/why_ireland_voted_no.cfm)

Any input from Ireland? I'm lost at trying to understand what exactly it is The Irish want to happen next. Will a solemn declaration stating you won't be conscripted to an European army, you can outlaw abortion and a meticulous explanation about how The EU works suffice?

[Invisigoth]

The European army of evil, run by si Germans and paid for by the rest!

[Connaught Ranger]

SIMPLE VERSION:-

The fault entirely lays with the Irish Government, they could not offer a understandable information packet to the voters.

That and the propaganda mission of the Sinn Fein Party (I.R.A. Mouthpiece)

pushing the conscription into European Forces, Foreign Military's including the British,

would be based on Erin's Green shores, thus ending Ireland's Neutrality.

Having just returned from a holiday in Ireland (my first in 5 years) and talking to family and

friends there there was also a perceived threat of Ireland being dominated by Germany, France

etc..etc.. and they not having the same big stick as the other members.

That and the fact that they have been living well, but all on credit and now there is an

economic downturn, and jobs are going but the banks still have to be paid. also the farmer

vote being influenced by "their E.U. money" being given to other deserving countries like,

Spain Portugal,Greece, Poland, Estonia, Hungary etc.. etc.. etc.. and the E.U. wont be offering

them any more large amounts of free money to bail them out.

[Calanen]

The fault entirely lays with the Irish Government, they could not offer a understandable information packet to the voters.


Have you tried reading the treaty? It is insanely complicated.

[Stonewall71]

don't worry , there will as many referendums as it needs until you say YES!

[muttbutt]

Have you tried reading the treaty? It is insanely complicated.
Yes because it's a treaty among 27 different countries.....I waded through it though, still didn't get 90% of it, but p-)

[muttbutt]

SIMPLE VERSION:-

The fault entirely lays with the Irish Government, they could not offer a understandable information packet to the voters.

That and the propaganda mission of the Sinn Fein Party (I.R.A. Mouthpiece)

pushing the conscription into European Forces, Foreign Military's including the British,

would be based on Erin's Green shores, thus ending Ireland's Neutrality.

Having just returned from a holiday in Ireland (my first in 5 years) and talking to family and

friends there there was also a perceived threat of Ireland being dominated by Germany, France

etc..etc.. and they not having the same big stick as the other members.

That and the fact that they have been living well, but all on credit and now there is an

economic downturn, and jobs are going but the banks still have to be paid. also the farmer

vote being influenced by "their E.U. money" being given to other deserving countries like,

Spain Portugal,Greece, Poland, Estonia, Hungary etc.. etc.. etc.. and the E.U. wont be offering

them any more large amounts of free money to bail them out.Can't forget Libertas's role in all this, he won't even say where the group got all it's money from...:roll:, I think we have a good idea though, and that it was not legal.

[DS73]

Have you tried reading the treaty? It is insanely complicated.
French variant is a bit better, but I concur, euro bureaucrats would try better.
There is a discussion ongoing for years about "the lack of correct information" describing EU activities. But, until somebody nuts will step in, the swamp will be still there.

[RAFREGT.]

Have you tried reading the treaty? It is insanely complicated.



not to mention hugely unpopular, even here in the UK. If it was put to a refurendum here, it would fail. Stick it up your ***!p-)

[Kitsune]

If you want to make a decision with a group, the ideas of democratic vote and stepping ahead in unison cannot always be combined. They can if, after being asked specifically, really everybody agrees. But if that is not the case, you have only two choices: either, get rid of the idea of asking everybody, or lose the idea of stepping ahead as one.

That is the whole problem here. Ireland decided to hold a referendum, and between 50% and 60% of her voters decided against the European treaty. Now what? All the other European states have to forget it now? That would mean that two millio Irish voters have made a decision for almost 500 million other Europeans - which seems not overly democratic.

It is of no use to hold referendums, as democratic as they may be, if one is not aware of the consequences of all possible outcomes and also willing to live with their consequences. That is now the case with the Irish: by saying "No" they suddenly find themselves at the sidelines and this consequence was more than they intended.

In the end, Europe has simply to realize that there is nothing wrong with a different speeds EU, which is already a reality anyway: for example, various states are not participating in the common currency and the Schengen Agreement. There is nothing wrong with simply going ahead with the European treaty. If that means that the Irish are left behind, well, the harsh truth is that this their problem. They voted for it, now they got it. Besides, it's not that they can't join in anytime, whenever they choose to.

[muck]

One third of all voters thought the treaty would have introduced conscription into a European army.
Weren't there even stories about claims that the Lissbon treaty would forbid couples to have more than one baby?

This is utterly ridiculous.

[SHAM]

Nothing has changed since the referendum.
And lets clarify, the Irish people voted in a referendum to ammend the Irish Constitution, not the Lisbon Treaty.
Now the Gov have some Statistics and graphs to show there "colleagues" in europe at the next meeting.
What have they learned from them?
All these idiotic ideas and sound bites about neutrality, conscription, abortion etc could have been avoided by publishing a list of what the changes would be in the consititution, what it was before and what it would be after, and then there would have been no room for ambiguity which the No campeign muppets thrived on.
I think its safe to say the Gov will anounce another Referendum after the next EU meeting or before it.
Will they have learned from there mistakes?

28th Ammendment to the Irish Constitution which Irish people voted on in the Referendum.
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2008/1408/b1408d.pdf

[Briggs]

Hey Kitsune,

How about we abolish democracy and let the Eurocrats decide?
The problem is that the EU systems works with unamity, if one members says no it is a no. You either play by your own rules or you don't.

Tell me how many 'Europeans' had their direct say on one of the MOST important type of documents in a political system (a Constitution)?
Only the Irish had a referendum. The EU cannot go ahead with the Constitutional Treaty or its camoclone the Lisbon treaty. It doesn't have the political legimity required.

The Constitutional Treaty is a disaster. Its unreadable.

Could the EU undermine the Irish abortion laws? If the EU votes a law then it can impose it on Ireland. Already seems to be the case with regards to illegal immigration (http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3457).

[joka]

Hey Kitsune,

How about we abolish democracy and let the Eurocrats decide?
The problem is that the EU systems works with unamity, if one members says no it is a no. You either play by your own rules or you don't.

Calling this mess democracy is delusional. Peoples votes were influenced by a myriad of reasons, some of which are apparently complete lies, and now everyone is trying to interpret the result in favour of their own views. Whatever step is taken next, it's guaranteed to not take the opinion of "the people" in consideration, because no one knows what it is!



Tell me how many 'Europeans' had their direct say on one of the MOST important type of documents in a political system (a Constitution)?
Only the Irish had a referendum. The EU cannot go ahead with the Constitutional Treaty or its camoclone the Lisbon treaty. It doesn't have the political legimity required.

From the top of my head I can't think of a single country or international organization that has formulated it's constitution through referendum. Too many cooks and all that.

The real tragedy here is that the majority of Europeans want democracy and direct accountability in The EU while the government leaders cling on to every shred of power they can and the public takes their frustration out on "The EU". And then we all get blasted in the ass.



The Constitutional Treaty is a disaster. Its unreadable.

If the Constitutional treaty was unreadable, The Lisbon treaty is even worse. The Constitutional treaty was at least one treaty, The Lisbon Treaty being an amending treaty you can only read it through cross referencing with the existing treaties, not that the legal jargon is readable anyway.

But that's what the people voted for in France and The Netherlands, or so it was interpreted. See the problem with referendums with issues like this? If you ask yes or no to a very simple question, there is only one way to interpret the result. You ask yes or no to international treaty your bound to end up with a mess like this.



Could the EU undermine the Irish abortion laws? If the EU votes a law then it can impose it on Ireland. Already seems to be the case with regards to illegal immigration (http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3457).
I'm baffled that it should come as a surprise to anyone that The EU has supremacy over national law in areas where we have agreed that is has supremacy. Otherwise, you know, this whole arrangement wouldn't make much sense.

This whole Abortion debacle is just symptomatic of how people tangle up their pet issues with matters that have no correlation. Yet another reason against referendums in matters like this.