Warning don't shoot 5.56 mm Mil spec ammo in a .223

[Dune Driver]

On page 66 in Sept 2008 SWAT mag warn not to shoot 5.56 mm in a civilian chambered .223. I understand the other way round is OK. Any Ideas on this? SAAMI (Sporting Arms & Ammunition Manufactures Institute also say it is an unsafe combo to shoot 5.556 in a .223. Many people have done this over the years but how many know about the warnings?

[jonosk]

Now I know and you do to so that makes a minimum of 2

[Gunge]

i have always heard this but have shot mil 5.56 thru my mini14 for years

can any of the MP.NET gun gurus can give their opinions?
(hollis,smglee,etc.)

i dont shoot the mini's that often anymore but i may start for my kids

[James]

On page 66 in Sept 2008 SWAT mag warn not to shoot 5.56 mm in a civilian chambered .223. I understand the other way round is OK. Any Ideas on this? SAAMI (Sporting Arms & Ammunition Manufactures Institute also say it is an unsafe combo to shoot 5.556 in a .223. Many people have done this over the years but how many know about the warnings?

Isn't this common knowledge?

[Vince S]

Well my knowledge of firearms is close to zero and yet a 5sec calculation tells you why it's unsafe.

5.56mm = .2188"
.223" = 5.6642mm

[playtym]

Isn't this common knowledge?

I always thought so.



Well my knowledge of firearms is close to zero and yet a 5sec calculation tells you why it's unsafe.

5.56mm = .2188"
.223" = 5.6642mm

So, by that method, you shouldn't be able to fire a .38 special bullet out of a .357 magnum revolver? I won't even ask about using half moon-clips to fire 9mmP out of both of .38 special & .357 magnum revolvers.

[gaijinsamurai]

Doesn't the same thing apply to .308 Winchester rifles firing 7.62 NATO?

I fired 5.56 out of my old Mini-14 a few times, back when it wasn't common knowledge (about twenty-some years ago), and I guess I just got lucky. I didn't hear it was unsafe until later.

[American Patriot]

5.56x45 NATO, although based on the .223, is not the same round. It's a little longer. 5.56nato chambers are looser than .223 chambers. When you close the bolt on a 5.56nato in a .223 chamber it doesn't fully lock and boom. The Wylde chamber lets you have best of both worlds letting you shoot match 223 accurately and also shoot 5.56 surplus.

[domokun]

The Wylde chamber lets you have best of both worlds letting you shoot match 223 accurately and also shoot 5.56 surplus.

Do you know any AR manufacturers using this chambering (not that I'm going to buy a rifle soon, but eventually I want to have one...or few...or lot of those)?

[Frens]

^ Oberland Arms use Wylde chambers


ETA:
as for 556 in 223 chambers: it's all about pressure... Dimensionally, 5.56 and .223 ammo are identical, but military 5.56 ammo is typically loaded to higher pressures and velocities than commercial ammo.

same reason it's not safe to shoot .38SPL +P ammo in a .38SPL that is not rated for +P ammo

[Bokwa]

The reason it is unsafe is that Military ammo is loaded for auto fire (higher charge) and therefore the resultant higher chamber preasure when fired from a bolt action (no blow-back system).

[Vince S]

So, by that method, you shouldn't be able to fire a .38 special bullet out of a .357 magnum revolver? I won't even ask about using half moon-clips to fire 9mmP out of both of .38 special & .357 magnum revolvers.


Well I'm here to learn good sir.

If I'm not mistaken, the .38 and 357 have the same bullet, just the casing changes right?

Guess I'll be less dumb tonight!

Thanks again

[Hollis]

The reason it is unsafe is that Military ammo is loaded for auto fire (higher charge) and therefore the resultant higher chamber preasure when fired from a bolt action (no blow-back system).


Same with some 9mm and 45 ACP for sub machine guns. Hotter rounds (another name for higher chamber pressures) also some 7.62 nato for MGs.


This applies for the .223 made a long time ago is my understanding.


Look at reloading dies .223/5.56 Nato.

.223 Remington vs. 5.56x45--Chambering and Throat Considerations
Is the .223 Remington the same as the 5.56x45? The answer is yes and no. There ARE differences between the .223 Remington as shot in civilian rifles and the 5.56x45 in military use. While the external cartridge dimensions are essentially the same, the .223 Remington is built to SAAMI specs, rated to 50,000 CUP max pressure, and normally has a shorter throat. The 5.56x45 is built to NATO specs, rated to 60,000 CUP max pressure, and has a longer throat, optimized to shoot long bullets. That said, there are various .223 Remington match chambers, including the Wylde chamber, that feature longer throats. Military 5.56x45 brass often, but not always, has thicker internal construction, and slightly less capacity than commercial .223 Rem brass.
Should you be worried about shooting 5.56x45 milspec ammo in a .223 Remington? The answer really depends on your chamber. 5.56 x45 ammo is intended for chambers with longer throats. If you shoot hot 5.56x45 ammo in short-throated SAAMI-spec chambers you can encounter pressure issues. The new long-throated 'Wylde' chamber allows safe use of military ammo. Wylde chambers are quite common in Rock River guns. Other manufacturers, such as Fulton Armory, offer modified "match chambers" with extended throats that allow safe use of 5.56x45 ammo in .223 Remington rifles. For a complete discussion of the .223 Rem vs. 5.56x45 question, read this Tech Notice (http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/news/newsview.aspx?storyid=11) from Winchester, and this GunZone Commentary (http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html) by Dean Speir. Without belaboring the point, we'll repeat the official SAAMI position: "Chambers for military rifles have a different throat configuration than chambers for sporting firearms which, together with the full metal jacket of the military projectile, may account for the higher pressures which result when military ammunition is fired in a sporting chamber. SAAMI recommends that a firearm be fired only with the cartridge for which it is specifically chambered by the manufacturer."

[akd]

Do you know any AR manufacturers using this chambering (not that I'm going to buy a rifle soon, but eventually I want to have one...or few...or lot of those)?

Rock River Arms

[domokun]

^ Oberland Arms use Wylde chambers


Only bad thing that I have heard about Oberland Arms is that those are more than little bit expensive.


Rock River Arms

RRA is lot more affordable, but i don't think that those are imported here, at least officially. Anyway, thanks for info, both of you!

BTW. I cant afford anything in while if buy pistol as I have planned to do, at least soon. I have get back to work before I can afford anything as pistol purchase will effectively destroy my savings. But thanks for heads up, I will remember.

Sorry for going off-topic.

[-Church-]

I've always thought .223 was just the 5.56 on the imperial system.

[Hollis]

I've always thought .223 was just the 5.56 on the imperial system.


In a way that is pretty much what happened. Problem is a common one. Round development based on a previous cartridge.

A example would be the 45/70. Eventually to add safety to rifles chambers in the round, Marlin developed the 45 Marlin.

The original 45/70 was referred to as the 45/70 government, a black powder round. Original rifles where designed for a bp load and the metals not as good as today.

Marlin built the lever action 45/70, newer design better metals and it was able to take hotter loads. Group II loads

Then the Ruger #1 in 45/70, a very hot round, less than 500 FPS than the .456 Win Mag. Group III loads


A group III load can be loaded into a trapdoor Springfield, firing it could kill the shooter.


In the .223, it was the bases for the development of the 5.56 Nato, The article I posted tells of the slight changes and problems if the 5.56 Nato is shot in a older .223 rifle. Sort of like the old 45/70 government rifles shooting the newer and hotter 45/70 round, for example only.

You can read about the 22 short, 22 rifle and 22 Long rifle. Modern day rifles with better steel did not have the problem of rifles long ago. With modern rifles you can get the same ballistic in a 22 short that a 22 long rifle has, problem some rifles chambers in the 22 short won't take the pressures. So the case design is not changed for safety reason.

One way to promote safety was to change the case dimension, making it impossible to chamber a fire a hotter load in a pistol not designed for it. Example is the 38 special and 357 Mag. With modern powders a person can load a 38 special case to 357 mag load, which could be very very hazardous in a 38 pistol not designed for the hotter load.


The 7.63 Nato and .308 is some what similar but there are no old design .308 on the market, is my understanding. .308 rifles are design to take various loads chamber pressures. Rather than basing a military round on a civilian one, like the .223, the .308 Win is based on the 7.62 Nato.

[Dune Driver]

Thanks HOLLiS & American Patriot I have heard about the Wylde chamber so thanks for reminding me and this must be the way to go. HOLLiS your two links were VERY helpful.
For sure the 308 and 7.62 NATO are interchangeable I do it all the time and have done so for years, even used UK RG Greenspot, IMI and Aussy Vietnam vintage & other surplus for hunting when out of hunting ammo. I am only now down sizing to the 5.56. Cheers

[-Church-]

Thanks for the post Hollis.

[Gunge]

thank you all, especially HOLLIS

[D.E. Watters]

Well my knowledge of firearms is close to zero and yet a 5sec calculation tells you why it's unsafe.

5.56mm = .2188"
.223" = 5.6642mm

The 5.56mm designation comes from the diameter of the barrel lands, not the barrel grooves or bullet diameter. For that matter, the .223 Remington doesn't use 0.223" diameter bullets. Bullets for the 5.56mm and .223 Remington run closer to 0.224", as do bullets for the .225 Winchester, .224 Weatherby Magnum, .222 Remington, .221 Fireball, .220 Swift, .219 Zipper, .218 Bee, and 5.7x28mm FN, to name a few.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I shoot British military issue RG 5.56 mm ammo in my civilian .223 (straight pull UK spec) AR15 rifle all the time. It's never been a problem.

[T3ngu]

Don't forget that the military 5.56 also tends to have higher projectile weights. So barrel twist and wear may also come into it.

Just my $0.02

[Laworkerbee]

Isn't this common knowledge?

Apparently not :)

[Vince S]

The 5.56mm designation comes from the diameter of the barrel lands, not the barrel grooves or bullet diameter. For that matter, the .223 Remington doesn't use 0.223" diameter bullets. Bullets for the 5.56mm and .223 Remington run closer to 0.224", as do bullets for the .225 Winchester, .224 Weatherby Magnum, .222 Remington, .221 Fireball, .220 Swift, .219 Zipper, .218 Bee, and 5.7x28mm FN, to name a few.

Wow thanks for that! I definetly learned something today!

Thanks to Hollis too for those great article.

[domokun]

I've known about the .223/5.56nato issue for quite long time. In my mind it has been mostly about accuracy. Hot loads have been known in Finland since last thursday (internet lingo: since beginning of times) we had our respectable share of SMG loads (not suitable for pistols). Personally I'm glad that I heard this before, I have had lot learning this from my own skin, not sure how to say this in English.

[Hollis]

I've known about the .223/5.56nato issue for quite long time. In my mind it has been mostly about accuracy. Hot loads have been known in Finland since last thursday (internet lingo: since beginning of times) we had our respectable share of SMG loads (not suitable for pistols). Personally I'm glad that I heard this before, I have had lot learning this from my own skin, not sure how to say this in English.



Accuracy is based on other issues. Construction of the rifle, Bullet, velocity, etc.

As someone mention rifle twist has a lot to do with stabilizing a bullet, too fast of twist or two slow of twist for a specific bullet will effect accuracy.

Depending on powder used, free bore and velocity will also effect accuracy.

Consistency in dimension of the case, weight and shape of bullet, powder weight, ignition (primer & Primer vent) also effect accuracy.

A very accurate load for one firearm, may not even chamber in another rifle of the same caliber and if it do, it may not group any where close to the other rifle. Highly accurate loads of specifically made for a specific firearm.

[domokun]

Accuracy is based on other issues. Construction of the rifle, Bullet, velocity, etc.

As someone mention rifle twist has a lot to do with stabilizing a bullet, too fast of twist or two slow of twist for a specific bullet will effect accuracy.

Depending on powder used, free bore and velocity will also effect accuracy.

Consistency in dimension of the case, weight and shape of bullet, powder weight, ignition (primer & Primer vent) also effect accuracy.

A very accurate load for one firearm, may not even chamber in another rifle of the same caliber and if it do, it may not group any where close to the other rifle. Highly accurate loads of specifically made for a specific firearm.

Actually I'm not sure why wrote what I just wrote... I'm bit drunk (now reading that again I'm not even sure what I meant with that).

I know bit about physical realities involved in small-arms accuracy. Real reality is always bit different than theoretical reality. There are lot factors that benefit (or opposite) to such like barrel length, rifling rate, powder burning speed...etc.. Those affect lot in performance of different loads, ie bullet type and type of powder used. Oh crap. I'll get back to this later. I know that you Hollis and lot others here know these things lot better than I. I must go back to OT&H and politics for for rest of night as I'm too much influenced by Whisky.

[juju]

5.56 Ammo for the british SA80 was softer than Nato load. The SA80 was known as a very finicky rifle and very sensitive, so a specific load was developped.
The main difference between the 223 and the 5.56 is the design of the chamber.
5.56 chamber have a longer throat and a different angle to accomodate longer bullets such as tracers. The 223 chamber is supposed to be more accurate, but the tests in SWAT magazine shows that with some loads, the accuracy between 223 match chamber and 5.56 chamber is identical and even superior in some cases for the 5.56.

5.56 NATO ammo is also hotter as already stated. If you add this with a tight 223 chamber, you might have some safety issues. When you start having primers popping out of the case, this is a sign of high pressure.

[Dune Driver]

Thanks once again HOLLiS for some good info. As American Patriot said try to get a Wylde chamber, if not a 5.56 one then you can shoot most types of both .223 and 5.56. Especially as juju said the SWAT magazine shows that with some loads, the accuracy between 223 match chamber and 5.56 chamber is identical and even superior in some cases for the 5.56. I am interested in a bolt action sniper rifle that will shoot almost anything I can get my hands on.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

5.56 Ammo for the british SA80 was softer than Nato load.

Are you sure about that? AFAIK British military RG is also used in Minimi LMGs and the British SF Diemaco rifles/carbines its not intended just for the SA80

[juju]

Maybe this has changed when the SA80A2 became the standard rifle.
The SA80A1 suffered severals defects of conception and did not gave full satisfaction.

[Laworkerbee]

I am interested in a bolt action sniper rifle that will shoot almost anything I can get my hands on.

A bolt action in .223 caliber is a "varmit gun", not a sniper rifle.

[hank]

A bolt action in .223 caliber is a "varmit gun", not a sniper rifle.

If you are hunting wabbits in your blood diamond pants and LDC loadout then its a sniper rifle. Duh.

hank

[Hollis]

. I am interested in a bolt action sniper rifle that will shoot almost anything I can get my hands on.


To add to what LAWB stated, Look at a .308, it has practical value. If you get a job as a sniper, rifle and ammo will be provided. If you just want to own one, a .308 has practical value. Hunting, General shooting, ammo is very available and not too expensive, and then there is over all cost to consider.

Savage makes a very fine rifle out of the box. Good to get started on and learning all the other stuff that goes with shooting accurately.

[SMGLee]

A bolt action in .223 caliber is a "varmit gun", not a sniper rifle.

Actually quita few companies make a precision rifle in 5.56 for snipers. those might not have too much role in military but many LE agency including your very own LAPD SWAT has 5.56 Robar in inventoy for certain roles against Hostage takers.

[JC0352]

Actually quita few companies make a precision rifle in 5.56 for snipers. those might not have too much role in military but many LE agency including your very own LAPD SWAT has 5.56 Robar in inventoy for certain roles against Hostage takers.

close-in head shots?p-)

[Laworkerbee]

Actually quita few companies make a precision rifle in 5.56 for snipers. those might not have too much role in military but many LE agency including your very own LAPD SWAT has 5.56 Robar in inventoy for certain roles against Hostage takers.

Sure but at what range do those guys nominally operate in when in urban environments, 150-200 meters? I don't have much faith in the 5.56 when shooting a target behind plate glass for example, especially if there are any angles involved.

7.62X51 ftw baby!

[Hollis]

Actually quita few companies make a precision rifle in 5.56 for snipers. those might not have too much role in military but many LE agency including your very own LAPD SWAT has 5.56 Robar in inventoy for certain roles against Hostage takers.


From what I read from this person, is that a rifle might be to special use. Also the term "sniper" is a always a "I don't know if you know what your means of if you do" term. It is a cool term.


I try to approach any recommendation based on how I perceive the person skill level and knowledge base, along with my pass experience with similar people. There are some very fine firearms to use to learn what we have been talking about means.

Maybe a .223 Varminter would also be a good choice. I have one, it is about .6 MOA @ 100M with handloads, but not handloads tailored especially for it.


He might want to join a range and try stuff.

[Dune Driver]

I usually use a .308,338 or .300 Win short mag but see the need for something smaller for close up work 100 - 150 meters (yards). The reason I am interested in shooting .223 out of a 5.56 is that with .223 non mil spec ammo I can get accurate out of the box hollow points, maybe against the Geneva Convention but does the job very well! (I can not hand load where I am). So yes Laworkerbee (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=4023) maybe it is a "varmit gun" and in many years I have never gone smaller that the above .308, 338 Lapua (8.60x70mm) or more recently .300 Win short mag, but I do see the need for what you call a "varmit gun" all be it with a 5.56 chamber. Much as I love my Accuracy International Super Magnum rifle in 338 it is very much over kill at 100 - 150much better between 600 to 1200 yards or meters.

[Hollis]

Dune what are you shooting.


.243 is another great caliber
.220 Swift,
There are a bunch of them.

BTW, which .338 are you using?

[Laworkerbee]

Not to go caliber crazy but I've always been a huge fan of .270 Remington.

For targets under 200m isn't a 5.56mm semi auto sufficient in accuracy or does it have to be a bolt gun?

Sorry for all the questions.

[Dune Driver]

HOLLiS the Accuracy International Super Magnum rifle in 338 is one of them. Lets say I teach people how to use this wonderful tool. In my spare time I hunt. Anyway many thanks for all your help. I have always been using the bigger calibers and don't use the 5.56 much.

[Dune Driver]

Yep .270 Rem is very good but my employers don't provide that ammo.

[Createdeemcee]

Not to go caliber crazy but I've always been a huge fan of .270 Remington.


.270 is a great round. I watched a buck summersault on a 2nd shot last year. First shot he ran 2nd shot he looked like olympic gold.

[Hollis]

HOLLiS the Accuracy International Super Magnum rifle in 338 is one of them. Lets say I teach people how to use this wonderful tool. In my spare time I hunt. Anyway many thanks for all your help. I have always been using the bigger calibers and don't use the 5.56 much.


Thanks for information. I have never had the opportunity to use a AI rifle. Always liked the looks and have heard good things about them.

As LAWB suggest some of the AR platforms seem to perform very well. I guess it depends on the shooting you are doing. Highly competitive shooing, that may not be the way to go, when 1/1000 of a inch is critical. Yet more than reasonable for varmint shooting.

[Kilo1-1]

As grabbed from m4carbine.net,

"5.56 Chamber
There is a common misconception that .223 and 5.56 are the same thing. They are not. 5.56 is often loaded to a higher pressure, among other things, which is the most critical issue. There are other dimensional differences pertaining to throat, bullet seat, etc. but what it comes down to in practical terms is that you can shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber but the reverse is not a good idea. Generally speaking the barrel will be marked with one or the other but unfortunately those markings cannot always be trusted. If you think you may ever shoot 5.56 ammunition it is a good idea to get a 5.56 chamber from a maker that can be trusted.
More information about chamber dimensions can be found here http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm"
---

AR15s from major brands now come with the 5.56 chambers.
They also have a comprehensive comparison chart showing which brand ARs have what (ie: F-marked FSB, M4 feed ramps or not, 5.56 chamber, etc). I highly recommend you guys check it out.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642

[SMGLee]

Sure but at what range do those guys nominally operate in when in urban environments, 150-200 meters? I don't have much faith in the 5.56 when shooting a target behind plate glass for example, especially if there are any angles involved.

7.62X51 ftw baby!

The avg. distance for a LE sniper in US is 75yrds.

no said the 5.56 is an all around caliber for sniping, it has limited action capability.

no need for you to have faith in the caliber, but LAPD will use it at a limited hostage taker scenerio...

Let's said a hostage taker has a person or two under his control out side a school or bank, or federal building, TV camera rolling and Cooper Anderson is giving play by play on CNN... the suspect is covered by a hostage in front and also one tie to him on the back...you now need to take a shot because in a 2 hours standoff the suspect becomes agitated and he is about to slit the throat of hostage number one....your position from the suspect is across a parking lot, you kneeled behind a small wall and the angle of the shot is slight upwards..

what do you want to shoot the suspect with? a 308 or 5.56?

Splat one suspect with 308, brian matter flys all over the place, possible over penetration and put the hostage number two in danger. crying hostage number one with blood and tissue all over his or her face talking to the nation TV....

or a nice precised shot to the head with a 5.56 which drop the suspect with out making a national scene...

[Laworkerbee]

Use a frangible .308 round then if that is the only caliber available

Don't take this out on me Nov. 8th p-)

[Hollis]

Use a frangible .308 round then if that is the only caliber available

Don't take this out on me Nov. 8th p-)


My thoughts too, like LeMas.

I hope he hammers your ______.:)

Just remember to have fun.


BTW, this is out of my league, I do know someone who is 150% on this, and is a police sniper and some other stuff. I could ask him.

[SMGLee]

My thoughts too, like LeMas.

I hope he hammers your ______.:)

Just remember to have fun..

didn't know he was coming on the 8th....but i will make sure I hammer his.............:bash:

[Laworkerbee]

I sent the damned email!

Nov 8th will be nice weather unlike the last time where I soaked through my clothes in sweat.

[Hollis]

I sent the damned email!

Nov 8th will be nice weather unlike the last time where I soaked through my clothes in sweat.


Yeah did the hole deeper........ Emailing a extra can or two of Whoop A$$ to SMGLee. Don't want SMGLee to run out.

[SilentType]

The avg. distance for a LE sniper in US is 75yrds.

no said the 5.56 is an all around caliber for sniping, it has limited action capability.

no need for you to have faith in the caliber, but LAPD will use it at a limited hostage taker scenerio...

Let's said a hostage taker has a person or two under his control out side a school or bank, or federal building, TV camera rolling and Cooper Anderson is giving play by play on CNN... the suspect is covered by a hostage in front and also one tie to him on the back...you now need to take a shot because in a 2 hours standoff the suspect becomes agitated and he is about to slit the throat of hostage number one....your position from the suspect is across a parking lot, you kneeled behind a small wall and the angle of the shot is slight upwards..

what do you want to shoot the suspect with? a 308 or 5.56?

Splat one suspect with 308, brian matter flys all over the place, possible over penetration and put the hostage number two in danger. crying hostage number one with blood and tissue all over his or her face talking to the nation TV....

or a nice precised shot to the head with a 5.56 which drop the suspect with out making a national scene...

Shhhewh, that would be one hell of a risky shot. I've seen 5.56x45mm over penetrate before and honestly with that kind of risk of penetration I don't know if I'd want to take that shot with any caliber. Guess if you had to take the shot at any kind of distance and your choices were 5.56x45 or 7.62x51 I've got to go with 5.56x45, but still highly risky.

What about a light high velocity .223 HP round like 50 grain? The force that it would strike would be with enough KE that the force acting against it upon contact with the suspect head should get the round to fragment quickly and should prevent overpenetration?

[Hollis]

What about a light high velocity .223 HP round like 50 grain? The force that it would strike would be with enough KE that the force acting against it upon contact with the suspect head should get the round to fragment quickly and should prevent overpenetration?


There are bullets out there that basically prevent over penetration. No two situations would probably be the same. Also Smaller departments would probably have more limitations on choices due to the lack of resources.

[domokun]

A bolt action in .223 caliber is a "varmit gun", not a sniper rifle.

Tell that East Germany... SSG-82, a rifle that did not exist in hands STASI not counter terrorist elite troops (their existence is also very uncertain).. as Eastern Block didn't have terror trouble. A 5.45x39 rifle meant for urban intrusion support... some those ended up aound after whole sale of NVA equipment, for Finland, Greece, Sweden and bunch of warfaring African states.

Those are quite heavy barreled rifles with modern wood stock, bi-pod and 5 or 8 round mags. And a guy who has one I know (he's pretty much FUBAR'ed as can't find quality ammo for calibre) says that it's quite accurate too (I'm bit pissed off as he won't let me try it). :)

Sorry for going bit off-topic.

[Death.]

This is something I did not know. Learn something new every day.

[Hollis]

Tell that East Germany... SSG-82, a rifle that did not exist in hands STASI not counter terrorist elite troops (their existence is also very uncertain).. as Eastern Block didn't have terror trouble. A 5.45x39 rifle meant for urban intrusion support... some those ended up aound after whole sale of NVA equipment, for Finland, Greece, Sweden and bunch of warfaring African states.

Those are quite heavy barreled rifles with modern wood stock, bi-pod and 5 or 8 round mags. And a guy who has one I know (he's pretty much FUBAR'ed as can't find quality ammo for calibre) says that it's quite accurate too (I'm bit pissed off as he won't let me try it). :)

Sorry for going bit off-topic.

I really like the 5.45 x 39 round, really fun to shoot. So far I have not seem much out there but surplus ammo. Who know give it some time, bullets and cases along with commercial ammo may become available.

[SilentType]

There are bullets out there that basically prevent over penetration. No two situations would probably be the same. Also Smaller departments would probably have more limitations on choices due to the lack of resources.

Yeah, Hollow Points (HP) and then you've got Frangible ammunition although I've never seen a frangible .223 round, but from what I've read Frangible pistol calibers are more viable than rifle calibers.

You've got the 5.7x28mm round I guess you could go with, but you're not taking accurate shots at distance with a P-90. Maybe if they had a bolt action or larger rifle in that caliber it would be good for those sort of situations.

If a department can't come up with the funding to purchase, evaluate, and train with different rounds than they probably should leave such actions to State Police SWAT or Sheriff's County SWAT teams with the proper budget.

[Hollis]

There are some other stuff out there. One is in 5.56 and is very lethal. I don't think it is available for civilian consumption.

[James]

I've long known that .223 and 5.56mm aren't the same, so why do companies like Brownells sell head space gauges as "5.56mm/.223"?

[Hollis]

I've long known that .223 and 5.56mm aren't the same, so why do companies like Brownells sell head space gauges as "5.56mm/.223"?


Case dimensions are the same. Look at reloading dies, the same too.


also gives the tech weenies something to worry about.

[chooky]

My understanding is that military cases are thicker than the commercial cases.As a result military cases loaded with the same amount of powder as a commercial case ,have less volume and so will create more pressure upon firing.

[Hollis]

My understanding is that military cases are thicker than the commercial cases.As a result military cases loaded with the same amount of powder as a commercial case ,have less volume and so will create more pressure upon firing.


You may want to check that out again.

[orionhawk]

Bushmaster AR-15's are good for both .223REM and 5.56NATO. The other issue, besides overpressure/safety firing 5.56 out of a rifle only marked for .223, is that if a rifle is marked "5.56 NATO" or the like, it may not cycle reliably with .223. DEFINITELY check the owner's manual, and the manufacturer's website. I know Fulton Armory, Bushmaster, DSA, Barrett, and Rock River, are all good to go with either 5.56 or .223.

[Hollis]

http://masterpostemple.bravepages.com/M855.htm

[brokenclog]

The avg. distance for a LE sniper in US is 75yrds.

no said the 5.56 is an all around caliber for sniping, it has limited action capability.

no need for you to have faith in the caliber, but LAPD will use it at a limited hostage taker scenerio...

Let's said a hostage taker has a person or two under his control out side a school or bank, or federal building, TV camera rolling and Cooper Anderson is giving play by play on CNN... the suspect is covered by a hostage in front and also one tie to him on the back...you now need to take a shot because in a 2 hours standoff the suspect becomes agitated and he is about to slit the throat of hostage number one....your position from the suspect is across a parking lot, you kneeled behind a small wall and the angle of the shot is slight upwards..

what do you want to shoot the suspect with? a 308 or 5.56?

Splat one suspect with 308, brian matter flys all over the place, possible over penetration and put the hostage number two in danger. crying hostage number one with blood and tissue all over his or her face talking to the nation TV....

or a nice precised shot to the head with a 5.56 which drop the suspect with out making a national scene...


Shouldn't a 22.LR (5.6mm rimfire) round be enough on short ranges such as the police use it? I'm not at all military,I'm a civilian shooter, so I don't know. It has the velocity to enter the skull, and never leave it, though.

Just my opinion though. If I'm not mistaken, Russian police units actually use the same calibre from what I understand: http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn57-e.htm

[orionhawk]

Shouldn't a 22.LR (5.6mm rimfire) round be enough on short ranges such as the police use it? I'm not at all military,I'm a civilian shooter, so I don't know. It has the velocity to enter the skull, and never leave it, though.

Just my opinion though. If I'm not mistaken, Russian police units actually use the same calibre from what I understand: http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn57-e.htm
the problem there becomes reliability - both of the terminal effect and of the cartridge itself. .22LR is quite capable of killing someone, but it isn't efficient or reliable at the task; it also cannot handle even cover so "heavy" as glass. it is also much more capable of passing through or lodging without applying immediately deadly damage. particularly when you keep in mind that snipers and marksmen are generally trained NOT to go for cranial-cavity shots unless specifically necessary. Rimfire cartridges are also much less reliable than centerfire.

one of the things to keep in mind about the use of 5.56NATO as a sniper/marksman round is the FBI study on overpenetration risks from a couple years ago, that found that 55-grain military ball 5.56 is actually less dangerous in overpenetration than 9mm Para or .45 ACP. even hollowpoint pistol rounds will go straight through a normal residential wall (or a thin/soft part of a human body), without enough deformation or loss of velocity to render the bullet safe. 55-gr 5.56, on the other hand, tends to shatter when it strikes much of anything. the bits might still be moving quite rapidly, but they are also quite small bits. I think the round tested was M855. the study mentioned how much soft tissue/bone/wall the bullet needed to start to tumble, and how quickly it came apart. I wanna say it was 3-5 inches, but it's been a while since I read it.

most modern .223REM and "alternative" 5.56 rounds (such as Hornady's TAP/FPD) are based on hunting rounds, and thus tend to be designed less around tumbling and fragmentation and more around controlled expansion.

[Hollis]

5.56 Nato and 22LR only commonality is the caliber other than that, no comparison.

Brokenclog, let me suggest picking up a book like Sierra Bullets reloading manual and reading it. Your question needs to be answer but in a forum like this, it is not going to do it. There are so many factors and differences.

Caliber in itself is meaning less as a comparison.

Of the 22 Calibers I have

22 LR
22 WRF
22 Mag
22 Hornet
220 Swift
223/5.56 nato
22 Jet
22 pellet
5.45 (close)

They are basically the same caliber, but they all offer advantages and disadvantages.

[orionhawk]

.22-250? (a LOT like .220 Swift)

[Hollis]

.22-250? (a LOT like .220 Swift)


Close, to many choices that are close.

[orionhawk]

.22 Super Colibri ftmfw.

maximum safety for LEO marksmen:D