Losing Europe to Islam

[Calanen]

We Are Losing Europe to Islam
Diana West

Thursday, September 18, 2008


With Wall Street convulsing, and the White House race intensifying, the question "Who lost Europe" is on no one's lips, let alone minds. Indeed, the question begs another: "Is Europe lost?"

The answer to the second question is, "No, not yet." And losing Europe, I would add, is by no means inevitable. But that doesn't mean the continent isn't currently hell-bent to accommodate the dictates of Islamic law, bit by increasingly larger bit. Such a course of accommodation, barring reversal, will only hasten Bernard Lewis' famous prediction that Europe will be Islamic by century's end.

And what do I mean by "accommodation"? Well, to take one tiny example, one snowflake in a blizzard of such examples, there are schools in Belgium that not only serve halal food to Muslim and non-Muslim alike (old news), but, according to a recent French magazine report, no longer teach authors deemed offensive to Muslims, including Voltaire and Diderot; the same is increasingly true of Darwin. (Don't even ask about the Holocaust.)

For a more substantial, indeed, keystone example of accommodation, we can look to England, where, it pains me to write, Sharia courts are now officially part of the British legal system. According to press reports this week, the British government has quietly, cravenly elevated five Sharia courts to the level of tribunal hearings, thus making their rulings legally binding.

It may be difficult to quantify the impact of a Voltaire vacuum on the continent, but we can instantly see the inequities of British Sharia (I can't believe I'm writing that phrase). Among the first official verdicts were those upholding the Islamic belief in male supremacy. These included an inheritance decision in which male heirs received twice as much as female; and several cases of domestic violence in which husbands were acquitted and wives' charges were dropped.

In a decidedly minuscule minority, I say we ignore the spread of Islamic law across Europe, from the schoolroom to the courtroom, at our peril, particularly given that in so doing, we also ignore the vital political parties that have arisen in reaction to this threat to Western civilization. Why at our peril? Because the same type of liberty-shrinking, Sharia-driven accommodation is happening here.

Of the parties dedicated to resisting Islamization that I examined in Europe last summer, the most promising range from the sizeable Vlaams Belang in Belgium to the tiny Sweden Democrats, and include the Lega Nord in Italy, the Party for Freedom of Geert Wilders in Holland, the Danish People's Party, the Swiss People's Party and the Austrian Freedom Party. Such parties are unknown here, or ignored. Worse, they are shunned. Why? I believe it's because their respective political opponents -- the leftist media and governing establishments that are increasingly dependent on Islamic support, by the way -- have successfully slandered these parties as "extremists," "racists," "fascists" and "Nazis."

Is advocating freedom of speech "extreme" or "fascist"? Is opposing Islam's law, which knows no race, "racist"? Is supporting Israel (which these parties do far more than other European parties) "Nazi"? The outrageously empty epithets of the Islamo-socialist left seem calculated to stop thought cold and trigger a massive rejection reflex. In this way, resistance becomes anathema, and Islamic law, unchecked, spreads across Europe.
Does that sound "Islamophobic"? You bet.

How can anyone who values freedom of conscience, equality before the law and other such Western jewels not have a healthy fear of Islamic law, which values none of these things? Incredibly, this is an emotion that is supposed to be suppressed -- and, in Europe, on pain of prosecution. Indeed, because Filip Dewinter admitted to such "Islamophobia" in an interview, his party, the Vlaams Belang, has been taken to court in Belgium on charges of racism, and, if convicted, will be effectively shut down through defunding by the government.

That hasn't stopped Dewinter, who, in accepting an award at a memorial event dedicated to Oriana Fallaci in Florence, last week, said: "Islamophobia is not merely a phenomenon of unparalleled fear, but it is the duty of every one who wants to safeguard Europe's future. Europe means Rome, Greece, Enlightenment and Judeo-Christian roots. Europe is a continent of castles and cathedrals, not of mosques and minarets."

Of course, even as Dewinter admits to fearing the Islamization of Europe, he and his colleagues act with exceptional political -- and physical -- bravery in rallying voters against it. This coming weekend, he joins several other politicians on the Sharia-fighting right in Europe -- among them two other men I interviewed, Mario Borghezio of Lega Nord, which is part of Italy's ruling coalition, and Heinz-Christian Strache of Austria's Freedom Party, which is expected to become part of Austria's ruling coalition after elections this month -- in Cologne, Germany.

In that ancient cathedral city, where the city council recently approved the construction of a long-controversial mega-mosque, these men will address a rally against European Islamization. (Contrary to initial reports, Jean-Marie Le Pen will not be at the demonstration.) The Sharia-fighters expect 1,500 demonstrators. Police expect 40,000 counter-demonstrators. These are frightening odds -- a metaphor, perhaps, for Europe's chances of staving off Islamic law. Who lost Europe? If it does happen, we certainly won't be able to say we weren't warned.

http://townhall.com/Common/PrintPage.aspx?g=b87e3c06-fc12-4356-b876-b4cfb68fa5e0&t=c

[junglejim]

And what will the Europeans do about it? Funny thing, in the Philippines the Commission on Human Rights was formed, ever since it was created all it did was bitch about the human rights record of the Armed Forces and never the Muslim rebels, even with the documentd use of child soldiers. Edit- My point is these guys will use the weakness of the societies the encrouch upon to attain their goal, the world should ignore their double talk and deal with these guys strongly.

[The Dane]

Visit Denmark.... :)

[junglejim]

From the post of the Danes here, I would die of political correctness within hours from stepping off the plane.

[Calanen]

And what will the Europeans do about it? Funny thing, in the Philippines the Commission on Human Rights was formed, ever since it was created all it did was bitch about the human rights record of the Armed Forces and never the Muslim rebels, even with the documentd use of child soldiers. Edit- My point is these guys will use the weakness of the societies the encrouch upon to attain their goal, the world should ignore their double talk and deal with these guys strongly.

You've got it real bad in the Phillippines now too. Doesnt make the news much in the West, but I've been watching and it is just frightening.

Stand firm, don't give an inch, and shut down the apologists in your midsts.

[Kaapeli]

Why am I not surprised to see who started this thread... Don't you have any other areas of interest on this forum, Calanen?

Has anyone thought about having a s single thread for this issue where everyone could post their thoughts and articles on the subject?

[junglejim]

Yep the massacre of some towns didnt make much news internationaly, but the repercussions was felt by the rebel group. So much so that from the massacre of the innocent citizens last month, now it is them thats calling on an international sanctioned ceasefire. What basically happened was the civilians took up arms and Armed Forces got its mandate to take the fight to them. The good thing that came out of it is, it got the Armed Forces closer to the citizenry, with businessmen and citizens alike sending them care packages... somewhat unheard off here before.

Make no mistake, the simple gangs in Europe will just be the beginning.

[Billy No Mates]

Why am I not surprised to see who started this thread... Don't you have any other areas of interest on this forum, Calanen?

Has anyone thought about having a s single thread for this issue where everyone could post their thoughts and articles on the subject?

Yes perhaps we could do with a sticky "muslims raped my dog" type thread .

[dava]

Or 'Losing this forum to Calanen'

[Mat_fr]

jeez.. :roll:

neocon's and conservative's opinions aren't the universal truth (neither are the leftist's ones).
the "islamisation" of europe is a political opinion, not a fact. Calanen, you can come in Europe and see it by yourself. That strange, i haven't heard the muezzin this morning in my city of Lyon.. :|


mat

[Rudolph]

Maybe these types of threads will seem more relevent in 20 years when everyone wonders why no one told them about this from the start?

[Chimera]

Maybe these types of threads will seem more relevent in 20 years when everyone wonders why no one told them about this from the start?

Or maybe not.

[Murus]

Maybe these types of threads will seem more relevent in 20 years when everyone wonders why no one told them about this from the start?


I'm not sure, it will be a problem in 20 years. Maybe I just live in a country, where simply aren't many muslims, and I don't meet them every day, but there are some differencies between East and West Europe. I'm still wondering about the Danish thread...

[Chimera]

What is "Europe" by the way?

[Murus]

What is "Europe" by the way?


For me there are some differences between the geographical and political view, but so it is obvious.

[Connaught Ranger]

More scaremongering from Calanen!!

now why are we not surprised!!:roll:

Austria no large Muslim population,

Hungary, No large Muslim population.

Bulgaria, No large Muslim population.

Romania No large Muslim population.

Estonia No large Muslim population.

Latvia No large Muslim population.

Italy is not under Muslim control.

Greece not under Muslim control.

France not under Muslim control.

Germany not under Muslim control.

Holland not under Muslim control.

U.K. not under Muslim control.

Republic of Ireland not under Muslim control.

Belgium not under Muslim control.

Switzerland not under Muslim control.

British Channel Islands not under Muslim control.

Gibraltar not under Muslim control.

Crete not under Muslim control.

Cyprus not under Muslim control.

So stop trying to spread baseless anti Muslim propaganda.

Connaught Ranger.

[Chimera]

You forgot Finland. I am very worried about the Izlamification of Finland. Finland is in Europe right?

[Leaper]

.........yes.....it....is......

And the Finns accept like 50 immigrants a year or something like that

GOOD JOB FINLAND! :hug:

[The Dane]

[quote=Connaught Ranger;3559631]More scaremongering from Calanen!!

I stand by Calanen's side...
Muslim's have done no good in Denmark..:|

[Holycrusader]

Connaught Ranger

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:jcLlXc80Q8blbM:http://josephhall.org/nqb2/media/forget_about_it.jpg

[Anomander]

lol, Islamo-left, i don't see many people walking around with pictures of khaddaffi on their shirts. :roll: Also funny is that the small parties mentioned (sweden democrats, Lega nord etc..) are essentially (nationalistic)socialdemocrats. So i would worry more about the left vs. (slightly different)left fight thats going on, we know where that ended up last time p-)

[Connaught Ranger]

You forgot Finland. I am very worried about the Izlamization of Finland. Finland is in Europe right?

No! got to leave space for others to add in,

Why Calanen feels he has to be the "Christian Watchdog of Europe and this Forum" is beyond me, he / she / it would be better off making a case for the continual domination (including enforcing Christian Religious beliefs on them) of the Native Australians by decedents of mainly "White Christian" Settlers and common Criminals from the United Kingdom & Europe over the last 200 years.
Or is that subject to close to home?

Connaught Ranger.

[Invisigoth]

No! got to leave space for others to add in,

Why Calanen feels he has to be the "Christian Watchdog of Europe and this Forum" is beyond me, he / she / it would be better off making a case for the continual domination (including enforcing Christian Religious beliefs on them) of the Native Australians by decedents of mainly "White Christian" Settlers and common Criminals from the United Kingdom & Europe over the last 200 years.
Or is that subject to close to home?

Connaught Ranger.

I think some brown person once stole Calanen's girlfriend or something :-(

[Billy No Mates]

I wasnt joking about my dog,it was a boy dog too the dirty bastards .

[Calanen]

No! got to leave space for others to add in,

Why Calanen feels he has to be the "Christian Watchdog of Europe and this Forum" is beyond me, he / she / it would be better off making a case for the continual domination (including enforcing Christian Religious beliefs on them) of the Native Australians by decedents of mainly "White Christian" Settlers and common Criminals from the United Kingdom & Europe over the last 200 years.
Or is that subject to close to home?

Connaught Ranger.

That is what is known as a red herring to distract from arguing the real issues. If you want to start an Australian flame thread, that's a matter for you - but this isnt it.

I'm as European and as Irish as you are, I have the passport to prove it. I'm also not Christian. That's not you saying that only native born people who actually live in Europe and never leave and are white are the only Europeans is it? Surely not. So I have a right to have an opinion about Europe, as much as my brother Europeans from Pakistan that wear burquas and preach the overthrow of Europe and the installation of sharia. You can't disagree with that, can you?

Very little is said to contradict the opinions I offer on a logical basis - the majority of it is ad hominem attack or flaming. The reason that is the case - is there is an avalanche of evidence of the Islamification of Europe and the march of the Global Jihad. Arguing on a logical basis on the evidence is too hard, so people resort to flames.

Wilful blindness prevails at all levels, with people not wanting to see what is all around them, day in day out, in every terror plot, in almost every European country, in every protest, in every demand for special treatment and new laws.

Do you want Europe or not? Do you stand for anything or not? And standing for multiculturalism and moral relativism, and sharia is exotic and cool and way better than the systems that made Europe one of the best places to live for 1000 years - wont do it. You wont be able to rally around some tepid 'oh we believe in...moral relativism.'

So pervasive is left wing multiculturalist handwringing - its taught in the schools, in the universities - and is accepted as a universal truth now that cannot be questioned or discussed.

Well unlike the Islamic community - I am able to take criticism - and I am going to put my views out there. Far braver men than me have stood up for what they believe, and one of the reasons the American revolution was won was because of the essays which various writers wrote in support of the cause. I hope to persuade some, perhaps not all - but most importantly get people talking and thinking. And they are doing neither at the moment, it is like people believe they have to accept unlimited islamic immigration and the destruction of the unique cultural heritage of Europe like it has already happened.

Well it hasnt happened yet - so anyone who has got a pair - stand up.

[Holycrusader]

I think some brown person once stole Calanen's girlfriend or something :-(

Or rape his coala bear...

[Invisigoth]

Or rape his coala bear...

Careful, jokes at Calanen's expense earn you infractions :)

[Holycrusader]

Careful, jokes at Calanen's expense earn you infractions :)


As an European Im losing to Islam, its too late for me already :( .
I will humbly wait for my punishment...

[Murus]

Or rape his coala bear...


Don't make fun of this. I think, the problem is real, but some of us overdo it. + maybe I don't know about this too much, but I don't have to face every day muslim gangs ...
I just read an article, that our goverment has a list for not recognised passes and documents, this means, you can't cross legal our borders with them. (mostly for mustlim states...)

[Holycrusader]

Don't make fun of this. I think, the problem is real, but some of us overdo it. + maybe I don't know about this too much, but I don't have to face every day muslim gangs ...
I just read an article, that our goverment has a list for not recognised passes and documents, this means, you can't cross legal our borders with them. (mostly for mustlim states...)

I promess I will never make any fun of coala bears...

Somehow I have a nasty feeling that most people that are afraid that Europe will be losing to Islam don't have to face every day muslim gangs too ...
Im more afraid that ie. Poland will be losing to antisemite xenofobs than to Islam.
Sorry I just failed to see a danger of Europe islamization.
Pls have some faith people, do not run for the hills yet.

[Murus]

I promess I will never make any fun of coala bears...

Somehow I have a nasty feeling that most people that are afraid that Europe will be losing to Islam don't have to face every day muslim gangs too ...
Im more afraid that ie. Poland will be losing to antisemite xenofobs than to Islam.
Sorry I just failed to see a danger of Europe islamization.
Pls have some faith people, do not run for the hills yet.


Will Poland lose to antisemite xenofobs? Really? I work with some Polen, and the are everything, but not antisemite.

[Erik2a4]

What is "Europe" by the way?

It's a continent. You live there.

[Holycrusader]

Will Poland lose to antisemite xenofobs? Really? I work with some Polen, and the are everything, but not antisemite.

Im Polen, I live in Poland and I can say that this is more propable than Poland "losing to Islam.

This party will able to get to Gov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Polish_Families

[Chimera]

It's a continent. You live there.

A continent , that's interesting. So when poeple say "Europe will be an Islamic Republic in 20 years", it sounds quite irrelevent, does it? Because Europe is actually a sum of territories, a union of nations. And these nations still have their own way to deal with immigration, their own policies, different approaches of multiculturalism.. So what I wonder about is, how can someone be so sure of the outcome of something if the variables are, let's say, substential.

So any thread that starts with "Europe blablabla..." is totally biased, lacks of accuracy in the way it deals with the problem, and has often a polemical tone that makes me think his author is a moron and amateur. Period.

[Billy No Mates]

What is "Europe" by the way?

Its the new Middle East,apparently .

[Kaapeli]

The reason that is the case - is there is an avalanche of evidence of the Islamification of Europe and the march of the Global Jihad. Arguing on a logical basis on the evidence is too hard, so people resort to flames.

No there isn't.

When only ~2% of Europes population are muslim (and majority of those are non-practicing) it's absolutely hysterically delusional to talk about "islamification". It's as realistic as talking about scientolofication.

Yes, there are some extremists who make a lot of noice about their beliefs and blow things up no one's denying that. But that has nothing to do with "islamification" of anything.

[Erik2a4]

A continent , that's interesting. So when poeple say "Europe will be an Islamic Republic in 20 years", it sounds quite irrelevent, does it? Because Europe is actually a sum of territories, a union of nations. And these nations still have their own way to deal with immigration, their own policies, different approaches of multiculturalism.. So what I wonder about is, how can someone be so sure of the outcome of something if the variables are, let's say, substential.

So any thread that starts with "Europe blablabla..." is totally biased, lacks of accuracy in the way it deals with the problem, and has often a polemical tone that makes me think his author is a moron and amateur. Period.

You're begging the question(s) to death, but it doesn't matter to me because I don't have a vested interest in the argument.

But yes, Europe is a continent.

[Holycrusader]

No there isn't.

When only ~2% of Europes population are muslim (and majority of those are non-practicing) it's absolutely hysterically delusional to talk about "islamification". It's as realistic as talking about scientolofication.

Yes, there are some extremists who make a lot of noice about their beliefs and blow things up no one's denying that. But that has nothing to do with "islamification" of anything.

Fully agree here... Stop with that scaremongering... Such talk like Calanen only work as justification of hate crimes like this one

http://exiledonline.com/russian-hate-crime-brutal-beheading-caught-on-tape-case-solved/

[Connaught Ranger]

That is what is known as a red herring to distract from arguing the real issues. If you want to start an Australian flame thread, that's a matter for you - but this isnt it.

I'm as European and as Irish as you are, I have the passport to prove it. I'm also not Christian. That's not you saying that only native born people who actually live in Europe and never leave and are white are the only Europeans is it? Surely not. So I have a right to have an opinion about Europe, as much as my brother Europeans from Pakistan that wear burquas and preach the overthrow of Europe and the installation of sharia. You can't disagree with that, can you?

Very little is said to contradict the opinions I offer on a logical basis - the majority of it is ad hominem attack or flaming. The reason that is the case - is there is an avalanche of evidence of the Islamification of Europe and the march of the Global Jihad. Arguing on a logical basis on the evidence is too hard, so people resort to flames.

Wilful blindness prevails at all levels, with people not wanting to see what is all around them, day in day out, in every terror plot, in almost every European country, in every protest, in every demand for special treatment and new laws.

Do you want Europe or not? Do you stand for anything or not? And standing for multiculturalism and moral relativism, and sharia is exotic and cool and way better than the systems that made Europe one of the best places to live for 1000 years - wont do it. You wont be able to rally around some tepid 'oh we believe in...moral relativism.'

So pervasive is left wing multiculturalist handwringing - its taught in the schools, in the universities - and is accepted as a universal truth now that cannot be questioned or discussed.

Well unlike the Islamic community - I am able to take criticism - and I am going to put my views out there. Far braver men than me have stood up for what they believe, and one of the reasons the American revolution was won was because of the essays which various writers wrote in support of the cause. I hope to persuade some, perhaps not all - but most importantly get people talking and thinking. And they are doing neither at the moment, it is like people believe they have to accept unlimited islamic immigration and the destruction of the unique cultural heritage of Europe like it has already happened.

Well it hasnt happened yet - so anyone who has got a pair - stand up.

Well if you are as Irish as me, then you are not Irish (as my Mother was born, raised in Nottinghamshire from good English Anglican stock, the English family tree and name can be traced back, to the particular area as far back as the Doomsday Book!)

My father a visiting Irish Catholic migrant worker stole her heart, they got married and myself and my first 3 brothers were born and raised in Nottinghamshire, until, at the tender age of 10, my father in his infinite wisdom decided to move the family to live on the West coast of Ireland.
Where a further 3 brothers were born, over the following years.

And I consider myself to be Anglo-Irish despite having an Irish Passport

There is no "red herring" being introduced here, or an attempt at flaming, merely an observation, that you apparently know nothing of what you are talking about with regards the "Islamification of Europe", and a suggestion you take up matters of whats of interest to the particular part of the world you live in.

I will disagree with your opinion as its formed from rubbish you read on anti-islamic websites and has no foundation, or basis in the real world.
Bravery indeed based on Copy - Cut and Paste.

Connaught Ranger.:)

[Mastermind]

Here is the real worry. First, most populations - societies - identify themselves by a few factors...geograpic location, race, history, language and a very big identifyer, is religous heritage. If most of Europe and North America identify themselves as "Christian" (what ever form that takes) they have been losing that identity for many decades. Christianity and it's many forms is one of the most dwindling religions on earth...and it is one of the most dynamic, chaning form almost daily. And, Christianity has been changing since it's very first inception.

Not so with Islam. Islam has not only remained exactly the same from day one...it has been militantly returning people to it's fundamental base. Right now, on this planet, there is not one single "Christian" country aside from the Vatican. Yet, there are many countries that are led by the edicts of Islam and some that insist they are Islamic Republics. Islam is not exported by accident of random immigration. It is deliberately exported and vehemently supported with force and threats of death to anyone who would criticise it. And, the world has been shown in bloody and firey grapics that these are not idle threats. People believe so strongly in Islam, they are more than willing to die for it...they are willing in the millions to die and to murder for it.

What is most spooky about it is, every Muslim who is caught murdering and killing others has exactly the same belief system as the "peaceful" Muslim living next door or running the local candy store on the corner. The only difference between the two is that one has "turned on" his Jihad "gene" and the other has not....but is quite capable of it.

We western "Christian" heritage people see our weakness. Christians have not come out and begun blowing themselves up taking our attackers with us. We hardly even go to worship. We really are no longer "Christains" as a people..we are people who have a "Christain" heritage and we hate to see it dying...it is a big part of our way of life. But, we, on the other hand, don't seem to be overly motivated to protect it. Thus, it is only natural a militant, viral, robust rligion like Islam would move to fill the vacuum.

Many comments have been made here that no western counrty has yet been taken over by islam, that we are imagining a threat when there is none...I have to disagree. Islam has made absolutely amazing inroads toward control of western societies..especially in Great Britian. I, an American, consider Great Britian to be the very cradle of Western Christian mankind. And I am astonished to see she is now practically an Islamic Caliphate...probably closer to that state than any other western nation...yet she has a very small minority of Muslims in her borders. Most murdering savages of Islam that attack other western nations come out of her...and they even attack her from within. It is now only a matter of time...not a matter of if....before other nations fall to her present state. And by then, what will she be? What will we be?

I think one of the main reasons we worry and "hand wring" so much about Islam within our western borders is because we feel helpless to stop it. We have this massive weakness that we can not fix...it is as if one whole part of our bodies are permanently paralyzed. We are helpless to resist an invasive army that identifys itself as a religion...we love freedom so much we are willing to see our civilization destroyed rather than withold one single freedom. If Hitler or Tojo had been leaders of a religous sect, and we had then the "PC" attitude about religions we now bind ourselves with, we proably would all be speaking German or Japanese today.

Yes...Islam is a threat to western Christian heritage societies. It is proably the most serious threat we have ever faced in our entire history since the days of Rome or the Vandals. Yet, as a society, as a civilization, we seem to have collectivly lost our will to survive. We seem to understand it is probably time for us to go. Truly, we did some gret things. But, we also made some terrible mistakes along the route of our historical journy to greatness. We now have too much guilt, too little fire, too few champions of our heritage to resist.

Islam has the fire, and every Muslim is her champion. They are willing to sacrifice their very lives to assure their place as the dominate force on planet Earth. And, as long as that condition persists, their desire will be realized. We should worry. We should be worried sick about that.

[Connaught Ranger]

I think you need to drink a bottle of COP ON mate.....!
Perhaps you'd also like to know that many of those British you speak of were Irish....or is that too close to the home truth....? Oh wait what about the slaughter and land grab by us Irish in the U.S. and South Africa, India and everywhere else that the British Empire touched and Irish people emegrated to....!

Facts:-

Most of the "Irish" exported to Australia were in chains as Convicts.

Irish Females were exported as convicts an indentured servants, as well.

Many "Irish" were exported to America the same way before the

Revolution, their purpose to develop the British Colonies.

Many soldiers in the British Army were of "Irish" extraction.

The majority of the "Irish" people who left the island of Ireland were of

peasant stock, before and after the Famines, and the "Landed Gentry"

were sworn servants of the British Crown.

Connaught Ranger.:)

[Holycrusader]

Islam has the fire, and every Muslim is her champion. They are willing to sacrifice their very lives to assure their place as the dominate force on planet Earth. And, as long as that condition persists, their desire will be realized.


How many muslims do you know personally Mastermind? I know quaite a lot and believe they are not so much "champions". And for sure they are not willing to sacrifice their very lives to assure anything...

Such generalisation do not give us anything...

[Mastermind]

You miss one vital point. The critial mass principle. If a person identifys themselves as a Muslim...an adherent to the Prohpet, there is a point they must not resist their leadership. Even though they do not want to give up what they have, Islam will not be denied. The only reason they seem so "westernized" is that they have the luxury of being free for now...but, notice one very important thing. They have not dropped the collar of Islam.

And, I have known many. I have been inside their homes...many of them..I have taken my shoes off and have been served their hospitality. And, I have seen the pictures in their homes of the burning towers and the portraits of the Ayatollah...and they smiled so sweetly and were so polite and so hospitable....so "Westernized".

[muttbutt]

Yay "Eurabia" again....someone still has to explain, and I have asked this before here (no answer is ever given though, strangly), why willl Turk's in Germany work with Kurd's? , why will Algerian's in France work with Morrocans in Spain and Indonesians in the Netherland's, never mind the Somali's in Sweden, ect ect....most of the different ethnic group's of Muslims in Europe have been clobbering the **** out of each other for centuries Islam or not...you only have to visit Saudi Arbia to see how they treat other Muslim's....sure they get treated religiously with some respect, but they are not Arab'S nor Saudi's so they are looked down upon...


anyway, as long as I can eat pork I don't give a **** who's in charge.....p-)

[Billy No Mates]

anyway, as long as I can eat pork I don't give a **** who's in charge.....p-)

Yes they can have my pork when they prise it from my cold dead (greasy) fingers....

[muttbutt]

Yes they can have my pork when they prise it from my cold dead (greasy) fingers....

"PORK PIES!!!"rofl

[IronFinn]

Keep up the good work Calanen. Even many of the replies here seem to be PC infested I will give you thumbs up for your efforts. Truth may hurt but it still is truth.

[big_les]

Truth? Truthiness more like.

Fact - if you agree that Muslims should be allowed to immigrate, you must also see that they must be to some extent catered for, and that a minority causing terrorist incidents and inciting hatred do not disqualify the majority from their rights.

If you disagree, if you think Muslims should be refused permission to immigrate into non-Muslim countries, then on what basis do you permit those of other religious and cultural backgrounds? How do you maintain consistency and fairness? Refuse all immigration?

Is that what is being suggested? What IS being suggested? Assuming for one moment that all (or even just many) Muslims are a potential threat to western democracy?

I hardly think that the country that was prepared to shoot dead a legally-resident, 100% innocent Brazilian electrician because they'd convinced themselves he was an Islamic terrorist, is prepared to take militant Islam for granted. It IS possible to manage extremism without censuring Muslims in general.

[The Dane]

It's a continent. You live there.

LOL... rofl

[DS73]

Truth? Truthiness more like.

Fact - if you agree that Muslims should be allowed to immigrate, you must also see that they must be to some extent catered for, and that a minority causing terrorist incidents and inciting hatred do not disqualify the majority from their rights.

Again reverting cause and reason.:cantbeli:
Any person coming to any country just by fact of crossing border is agree with local laws and way of life.
As simple as that.

What Calanen, being lawyer, and many other policemen, lawyers, bureaucrats, university professors etc. are telling, that PC crap is big way overhead. There should be law applied, and it should apply to everybody. Muslims, gipsies, chines included.
At present there huge organized groups of muslims who ignore local rules, harass locals (I know personally dutch people who left their home because they "failed to keep peaceful relations" with crazy moroccans) and basically these groups parasite on local comunities.



If you disagree, if you think Muslims should be refused permission to immigrate into non-Muslim countries, then on what basis do you permit those of other religious and cultural backgrounds? How do you maintain consistency and fairness? Refuse all immigration?
There should be no excuses for muslims in european countries. Same rules and laws should be applied to everybody, muslims included.
At present the system is broken, a number of communities in Germany (Berlin areas for CS!), the Netherlands(small areas around Rotterdamm), Belgium (A'pen, etc.), France (many, many small areas around practically all big cities) are of limit for local authorities. It is preposterous.
At present problems are very local, and are not too bad. Yet.



Is that what is being suggested? What IS being suggested? Assuming for one moment that all (or even just many) Muslims are a potential threat to western democracy?
To prevent that the muslim community has to make big steps to reform and modernize itself. Or else....


I hardly think that the country that was prepared to shoot dead a legally-resident, 100% innocent Brazilian electrician because they'd convinced themselves he was an Islamic terrorist, is prepared to take militant Islam for granted. It IS possible to manage extremism without censuring Muslims in general.I wonder what would happen with policeman if the victim would be some arab....

[DS73]

I will disagree with your opinion as its formed from rubbish you read on anti-islamic websites and has no foundation, or basis in the real world.
Bravery indeed based on Copy - Cut and Paste.
Connaught Ranger.:)
You live in a country harden up in continuous wars with turks and Hungarians, you came from country harden up in a national struggle against british.
Both countries and nations are not exactly popular among asian immigrants.
This problem does not concern you.

[Weasel]

I would have bet one months salary that Calanen was the one who started this thread. rofl

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Many comments have been made here that no western counrty has yet been taken over by islam, that we are imagining a threat when there is none...I have to disagree. Islam has made absolutely amazing inroads toward control of western societies..especially in Great Britian. I, an American, consider Great Britian to be the very cradle of Western Christian mankind. And I am astonished to see she is now practically an Islamic Caliphate...probably closer to that state than any other western nation...yet she has a very small minority of Muslims in her borders.I have no idea how you came to this conclusion, no idea at all you sound like one of these right wing nut jobs that keep banging on about how the Joos control all the money. Stop it already.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I would have bet one months salary that Calanen was the one who started this thread. rofl

Internet obsessives are nothing if not predictable :)

Especially the neocon chickenhawk variety

[m.i.t]

Yay "Eurabia" again....someone still has to explain, and I have asked this before here (no answer is ever given though, strangly), why willl Turk's in Germany work with Kurd's? ,


anyway, as long as I can eat pork I don't give a **** who's in charge.....p-)

Because most of the immigrants in Europe are low educated (most of them havent graduated from primary schools) poor and rural zones people ...So religion look like a PORT for them...

Also european borns can adopt all jobs and work in all kind of business.


Pork ham and alcohol are also free to consumpt in most muslim countries .

[Connaught Ranger]

You live in a country harden up in continuous wars with turks and Hungarians, you came from country harden up in a national struggle against british.
Both countries and nations are not exactly popular among asian immigrants.
This problem does not concern you.

Well, in 1877 the Turks /Ottoman Empire gave up its claims to what is now Romania with very little fight. Before that there was no continious war, a few small spats and small rebellions put down very harshly and quickly.

Transylvania, (where I live) was under the Hungarians till 1919 / 1920, then in W.W.2 went back under Hungarian rule, only to go back to the Romanians immediate post WW2. Unfortunately for Hungary she had the misfortune to be on the losing side in two World Wars.

By the way, I also lived over 5 years in Germany before moving to Romania, and before that was a regular visitor on holiday for 10 years, mainly to the same are in Bavaria, and did not see any Muslin take over there either:roll:

Again, don't make comments about what you don't know, my birth country was the United Kingdom I left there in 1968, aged 10, by that time the Republic of Ireland using that form of a name was in existence since 1949

see:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland.

The Republic of Ireland was never in armed conflict with the British, a small band of terrorists were. The Irish Defence Forces of which I served over 21 years were never in armed conflict with the military forces of Great Britain.

There is no paranoia of a "take over" by Muslims in Romania, but, that's not to say there are no Muslims living here.

Great Britain once a mighty Empire, along with other past European colonial Empires, has an influx of citizens whose religions include the Muslim faith, those citizens have been deemed to have a legal right to live in the countries of their former masters, but, the way its being posted on here by certain members there is a "take-over" of Europe, nobody has forced, is forcing European Christians to change their faith, adopt their laws or wear their clothes,

And by the way, who are you to define on a public forum whether I can make a reply, in my opinion there is no problem to be concerned about, because the problem does not exist.

Connaught Ranger:)

[IDF_TANKER]

Internet obsessives are nothing if not predictable :)

Especially the neocon chickenhawk variety

You got that one right, buddy. :roll:

[The Balkan]

It seems like all the worst radical types have ended up in places like UK and Finland. They should simply kick them out at first sign that they're that kind of person. I would have no problem with this. If you want to live like you're under the Taliban, then GO LIVE UNDER THE TALIBAN. If you want to live equal to everyone else and keep your culture for yourself while respecting other cultures and co-exising then feel free to stay and help get rid of the idiots giving you a bad name.

[PVJ]

Religion in general has never helped society or humanity. The dark ages in Europe, when the pope, bishops, and religious figures could order killings, torture, and had all power over the territory, were horrible. The only time Europe actually flourished is when people stopped being so commited to Christianity and focused on science, art, music. If you get shot or get cancer, or need a heart transplant are you gonna go to your mosque/church/temple or a hospital?

[The Balkan]

Religion in general has never helped society or humanity. The dark ages in Europe, when the pope, bishops, and religious figures could order killings, torture, and had all power over the territory, were horrible. The only time Europe actually flourished is when people stopped being so commited to Christianity and focused on science, art, music. If you get shot or get cancer, or need a heart transplant are you gonna go to your mosque/church/temple or a hospital?

This is true. Religion shouldn't control or infuence anything in the country, it should be completly seperate and something you do ocasionaly if you're interested personaly. But for some people they WILL go to a church or mosque AS WELL as to a hospital if they get cancer. Their belif (no matter how wacky to others) does help them get through things. I mean belif in something can be pretty powerful.

[PVJ]

This is true. Religion shouldn't control or infuence anything in the country, it should be completly seperate and something you do ocasionaly if you're interested personaly. But for some people they WILL go to a church or mosque AS WELL as to a hospital if they get cancer. Their belif (no matter how wacky to others) does help them get through things. I mean belif in something can be pretty powerful.

Theres a difference though,

A person goes in for heart transplant, their family members pray for their survival <--- perfectly fine


Not immunizing muslim children against life threatening diseases because the vaccine might have some minuscule trace of pork related
ingredient <--- ridiculous, and dangerous


choosing religion over life is insane and stupid, and no better than a suicide bomber.

[The Balkan]

Theres a difference though,

A person goes in for heart transplant, their family members pray for their survival <--- perfectly fine


Not immunizing muslim children against life threatening diseases because the vaccine might have some minuscule trace of pork related
ingredient <--- ridiculous, and dangerous


choosing religion over life is insane and stupid, and no better than a suicide bomber.

LOL Has that actualy happend? If true, yes moronic.

Choosing religion over life is a huge part of any religion though. Anyone who is DEDICATED to their Christian or Muslim faith belives there is a better existence awaiting then they have in this life. So it should be no problem to die if they have to since there is nothing to fear, but in fact only something to look forward to. Just so happens most Middle Eastern countries are less developed and backwards so religion is stronger, like Christianity was in Europe before. So naturaly they being the harder belivers are more likely to give their lives for it.

[miguelencanarias]

I wasnt joking about my dog,it was a boy dog too the dirty bastards .Billy, the Holy Quran states that if a good muslim is unable to make his pilgrimage to Mecca, he must at least screw a Christian man's dog. Specifically, YOUR dog (which is a particularly impressive foresight considering the book was written 1400 years ago).

So he was just following islamic doctrine. What, are you against religious beliefs or what? you miserable islamophobic crusader, you!

[PVJ]

LOL Has that actualy happend? If true, yes moronic.

Choosing religion over life is a huge part of any religion though. Anyone who is DEDICATED to their Christian or Muslim faith belives there is a better existence awaiting then they have in this life. So it should be no problem to die if they have to since there is nothing to fear, but in fact only something to look forward to. Just so happens most Middle Eastern countries are less developed and backwards so religion is stronger, like Christianity was in Europe before. So naturaly they being the harder belivers are more likely to give their lives for it.

Sadly that actually is true, some muslim physician in UK said in an interview Muslims shouldnt take their children to be immunized because many vaccines have some haraam ingredient in them.

[The Balkan]

Sadly that actually is true, some physician in UK said in an interview Muslims shouldnt take their children to be immunized because many vaccines have some haraam ingredient in them.

I honestly tend to think all these weird ass things these Arab Muslims seem to do is due to their own national and ethnic cultures and countries infused with religon, more so then just the religion. Cuz I sure as hell have never heard of half of this **** done in Albania or Bosnia. I'm sure there is some extreme cases but that's just isolated maniacs, it ain't on this scale. Some of the retarded aspects of Beduin tribal culture have made it into their modern Islam. Like the burying alive in that Pakistan region, wtf?

It's curious that in America Muslims haven't been more violent or rebellious after all this, but America is a rich and nice country to live in, so that says something. As long as your ass sitting pretty and comfy you don't feel like blowing yourself up as much lmao. Cheeseburgers and freely accessable **** > martyrdom.

But the UK isn't a ****hole either (even though London can be rough), so it doesn't explain why they are like that there. It just seems like all the worst examples have made it there. Honestly knowing someone will say "You're a Muslim like them" makes me ashamed cuz I or nobody I've ever known has ever acted like that. Granted we aren't practising in the least but still, just the fact I'll be connected to them. They give a bad name to normal people.

[Revolveri]

I guess the muslims in USA aren't as violent because they actually have to do work to earn their daily bread. In Europe there's welfare and all kinds of support programs for poor immigrants. We've got a lot of somalis in Finland but I rarely see them work anywhere, maybe a few times as janitors or cleaners.

But granted, the employment situation in Finland is not the best and I'm pretty sure Finnish companies will favour ethnic Finns over immigrants.

[Paya]

There is nothing inheritely evil about Islam, no more so, at least, than any other major religion. The interpretations of the scriptures of a given religion can be a bitch, though.

In any case, Europe is in no way in any immediate danger of being "overwhelmed". And I'm sure that for every fundamentalist nut-case, you have at least ten hard working, law abiding citizens. They're just not the attention whores their fundamentalist "brothers" are.

[Erik2a4]

It's curious that in America Muslims haven't been more violent or rebellious after all this, but America is a rich and nice country to live in, so that says something. As long as your ass sitting pretty and comfy you don't feel like blowing yourself up as much lmao. Cheeseburgers and freely accessable **** > martyrdom.


You actually hit the nail on the head. The "International Security Journal" by Harvard University's Belfer Center has an article in the Spring 2008 issue entitled "What Terrorists Really Want: Terrorist Motives and Counterterrorism Strategy" by Max Abrams.

His conclusion: Terrorists or Extremists are the result of social bonds and networking, regardless of ideology and secular/religious. They often do not stop their actions even if negotiation would further their proposed aims. If their aims are achieved they often simply switch their aims.

Some quotes: "In fact, the [natural systems] model emphasizes that organizations will act to perpetuate their existence--even when doing so undermines their official goals--whenever members attach utmost importance to the social benefits of the organization."

"Empirical evidence is accumulating in terrorism studies and political psychology that individuals participate in terrorist organizations not to achieve their political platforms,but to develop strong affective ties with fellow terrorists."

"Analysts who study al-Qaida are increasingly finding that European Muslims are unassimilated in their host countries and respresent a core constituency of al-Qaida, whereas Muslims in the United States are comparatively assimilated and detached from the AQ network."

This last quote is taken from "Terrorism and Deculturation", Roy, pg. 166.

All of the above quotes are the Abrams, and I am using them without permission, but I hope he won't mind. While we're joking about eating burgers and getting fat, the evidence seems to support that people don't become terrorists if they are part of a triving social network.

This does not mean that the US "has it right" and Europe "is all wrong." If anything this is an accident of various reasons. However, it does suggest that the solution to radical terrorism, regardless of what ideology, should be combated by a comprehensive social networking process.

[IronFinn]

Truth? Truthiness more like.

Fact - if you agree that Muslims should be allowed to immigrate, you must also see that they must be to some extent catered for, and that a minority causing terrorist incidents and inciting hatred do not disqualify the majority from their rights.

If you disagree, if you think Muslims should be refused permission to immigrate into non-Muslim countries, then on what basis do you permit those of other religious and cultural backgrounds? How do you maintain consistency and fairness? Refuse all immigration?

Is that what is being suggested? What IS being suggested? Assuming for one moment that all (or even just many) Muslims are a potential threat to western democracy?

I hardly think that the country that was prepared to shoot dead a legally-resident, 100% innocent Brazilian electrician because they'd convinced themselves he was an Islamic terrorist, is prepared to take militant Islam for granted. It IS possible to manage extremism without censuring Muslims in general.

What DS73 said. Our countries, our laws, if immigrants have problems with that then they should leave. period.

[Calanen]

I guess the muslims in USA aren't as violent because they actually have to do work to earn their daily bread. In Europe there's welfare and all kinds of support programs for poor immigrants.

There is not enough of them. Once the population is big enough, watch out.

Certain Muslims in America are far more interested in the stealth jihad than the fighting one, although the Feds are following a lot of people around and we had the Holy Land Foundation trial. The ongoing funding of Hamas and Hizbollah from the USA continues, as does Islamic charity front groups getting busted for diverting money to terror.

Just because there is no open violence, does not mean there is not the will to do so - all that is lacking is the numbers. Yet.

[khukuri]

Originally Posted by Mastermind

Islam has the fire, and every Muslim is her champion. They are willing to sacrifice their very lives to assure their place as the dominate force on planet Earth. And, as long as that condition persists, their desire will be realized.

Youre smoking crack if you think that you know what me and a billion other muslims think. All of us together as well, lol.

Gentlemen, its exacly this kind of hate speech, that mr goebbels uhm... sorry mastermind, comes with, where he thinks he can declare the intention of all/most muslims that leads to people in mass doing crazy ****.

As soon as someone comes and says they are this they are that as if they know what and how THEY, think.


Believe or not people but we muslims are also free thinking individuals like any one else. We are not zombies programmed in one behaviour.

[Calanen]

There is no "red herring" being introduced here, or an attempt at flaming, merely an observation, that you apparently know nothing of what you are talking about with regards the "Islamification of Europe", and a suggestion you take up matters of whats of interest to the particular part of the world you live in.

You say I know nothing of what I am talking about, then tell us all why. I can say you know nothing. You say I know nothing, but without well reasoned debate, its meaningless isnt it?

Well then say why my opinion is rubbish, bland statements about it being rubbish is just - flaming. As was the stuff about my alleged lineage being from criminals.



I will disagree with your opinion as its formed from rubbish you read on anti-islamic websites and has no foundation, or basis in the real world.
Bravery indeed based on Copy - Cut and Paste.


What I seek to do is support my arguments with sources and facts, with the articles from whatever newspaper or blog sourced. If I was not to do so, people would say I lack concrete examples or sources. But now you say the sources are 'anti-islamic' - most of them come from mainstream media.

If you say there is something wrong with the arguments, then say what they are. But to just dismiss something as 'anti-islamic' is not credible.

I wasn't saying I was brave - re-read what I said. I said that braver men than I have had the courage to stand up for what they believe in, and therefore so should I. Many friends have warned me, don't write your book, because the religion of peace will come and kill you. But then again, I think that I should write the book for exactly that reason.

[DZMouloudia]

Why so much hate towards Islam and Muslims? I do Understand that there are quite a few deranged and even fascist Muslims, but the majority of Muslims are peace loving people.
Since you guys like to talk so much about history....

- Crusaders.
-Spanish requonquista.
-Genocide of the native Indians in the New World.
-Slavery
-Colonial Wars.
-Holocaust.
- The massacre of srebrenica

Does that list rings any bells?? All the above genocides were committed by so called " Christians", so should we condemn christianity? The answer in no. As far as Muslims go, they respect Christianity, For example, a Muslim has to show respect while talking about Jesus "My Master Jesus Peace be upon him".

By Insulting Islam and Muslim you are just giving more air munitions to radicals from both sides, and antagonizing another 2 billion Muslims.

[Rudolph]

Why so much hate towards Islam and Muslims? I do Understand that there are quite a few deranged and even fascist Muslims, but the majority of Muslims are peace loving people.
Since you guys like to talk so much about history....

- Crusaders.
-Spanish requonquista.
-Genocide of the native Indians in the New World.
-Slavery
-Colonial Wars.
-Holocaust.
- The massacre of srebrenica

Does that list rings any bells?? All the above genocides were committed by so called " Christians", so should be condemn christianity? The answer in no. As far as Muslims go, they respect Christianity, For example, a Muslim has to show respect while talking about Jesus "My Master Jesus Peace be upon him".

By Insulting Islam and Muslim you are just giving more air munitions to radicals in both sides, and antagonizing another 2 billion Muslims.

^^^
Muslims have a lot of reason to hate, better deal with it now, while you still can....

[DZMouloudia]

^^^
Muslims have a lot of reason to hate, better deal with it now, while you still can....

And your point is?? KILL all muslims?? is that your answer?

Or maybe apply the apartheid methods right??

So many of you just sound like Germany during the 30's

Just ridiculous.......

[Rudolph]

And your point is?? KILL all muslims?? is that your answer?

Or maybe apply the apartheid methods right??

So many of you just sound like Germany during the 30's

Just ridiculous.......

I was being midly sarcastic, but have heard it from the mouths of people living in Wales that they cannot stand it anyone. But they said it started with getting immmigrants to do this-and-that, decades ago, and they never thought there would be so many eventually.

1930's Germany? Britain is clearly the most liberal and peaceful place around!! And Muslims have never been discriminated against in my country...

[DZMouloudia]

I was being midly sarcastic, but have heard it from the mouths of people living in Wales that they cannot stand it anyone. But they said it started with getting immmigrants to do this-and-that, decades ago, and they never thought there would be so many eventually.

1930's Germany? Britain is clearly the most liberal and peaceful place around!! And Muslims have never been discriminated against in my country...

I was not referring to Britain, I was talking about most of the comments in this thread.

Regarding Muslims in Europe, specially UK, France and Germany, they did not mind having cheap Third World labor ( Muslims among them) during The Industrial Revolution but now i guess times changed. For example in France, try to apply for jobs with an Arabic last name, and you will understand the frustration.

[PVJ]

Why so much hate towards Islam and Muslims? I do Understand that there are quite a few deranged and even fascist Muslims, but the majority of Muslims are peace loving people.
Since you guys like to talk so much about history....

- Crusaders.
-Spanish requonquista.
-Genocide of the native Indians in the New World.
-Slavery
-Colonial Wars.
-Holocaust.
- The massacre of srebrenica

Does that list rings any bells?? All the above genocides were committed by so called " Christians", so should we condemn christianity? The answer in no. As far as Muslims go, they respect Christianity, For example, a Muslim has to show respect while talking about Jesus "My Master Jesus Peace be upon him".

By Insulting Islam and Muslim you are just giving more air munitions to radicals from both sides, and antagonizing another 2 billion Muslims.

Want to know the difference? Christians dont do that sh!t anymore. Most of the stuff you listed isnt even related to religion.

-Spanish requonquista.
-Genocide of the native Indians in the New World.
-Slavery
-Colonial Wars.

Colonialism and establishing colonies to make the empire larger and stronger

Holocaust- Nazis didnt kill jews because of "god" they did it to establish what they believed was a superier race.

Srebrinica- and the Balkan wars in general were between ethnic Croats, Bosniaks, and Serbs, they didnt fight in the name of religion.

Crusades- is the only one involving religion and it was more than a millennium ago, and muslims were involved too.


AFAIK there hasnt been any mass immigration of christians to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and demanding that churches be built everywhere and to accept christian prayer in schools, and start serving pork because christian students want it. Hell, if they even tried to do it theyd probably be tortured and hanged. My point is Christians do not put religion and god before their lives, while many Muslims still do. Moderate muslims rioted when a cartoon of mohammed was published in Denmark, while there was been so many jokes and sh!t done with images of jesus(raptor jesus) and christian biblical figures and no one rioted or made death threats.

[Nobi]

I was not referring to Britain, I was talking about most of the comments in this thread.

Regarding Muslims in Europe, specially UK, France and Germany, they did not mind having cheap Third World labor ( Muslims among them) during The Industrial Revolution but now i guess times changed. For example in France, try to apply for jobs with an Arabic last name, and you will understand the frustration.

No one have asked you to come in our land, stay out from here!

[-Church-]

Since you guys like to talk so much about history....

- Crusaders.
-Spanish requonquista.
-Genocide of the native Indians in the New World.
-Slavery
-Colonial Wars.
-Holocaust.
- The massacre of srebrenica

Does that list rings any bells?? All the above genocides were committed by so called " Christians", so should we condemn christianity? The answer in no.

It's not so much as terrorists acts commited within the last few decades but also the states of most arabic countries or countries under Islamist rule. Yeah christians did a lot of bad things in the past and yeah some did in the recent past but we have a civilized society where equality and freedom are our mottos.

In Saudi Arabia women cannot leave their house with a man, they're arent allowed to drive a car and men cannot see them under their hijab before marriage. Does that sound fair to you ? Does that sound civilized ?

I dont think so, it's not just about war or atrocities committed under the cover X religion, it's about the state of things and the state of things are that we have the moral high ground.

Because when a muslim comes to a western country he's pretty much at ease because of the liberties we offer while a female state official has got to put on a veil not to 'offend' their hosts.

[DZMouloudia]

Move your ****ing ass**** from here, this is our country and we live how we like it, we don´t need here a kalifat or sharia. Move away from our country or we bomb you away from here mister.

How old are you 5????
Where are you from again? Poland?

[Calanen]

Why so much hate towards Islam and Muslims? I do Understand that there are quite a few deranged and even fascist Muslims, but the majority of Muslims are peace loving people.
Since you guys like to talk so much about history....





- Crusaders.

So what. The Crusades were predominantly defensive wars to combat islamic aggression, Islam found itself out of Medina and in Spain and France somehow. Wonder how that happened.


-Spanish requonquista.

The Spaniards were able to take back their *own* land from the Muslims, they wouldn't be slaves under Islamic overlords anymore - how very rude of them.


-Genocide of the native Indians in the New World.

This is just deflection. You cannot debate the global jihad on the merits,so you say 'Oh yeah, well, what about you!' Make a native indian thread if you want to, but stop the deflection - it's just old.


-Slavery

It's funny you mention slavery, when unlike the West, it is still widely practised in the Islamic world. Also, the Koran says you can have slaves including concubines, - 'that your right hand possess'.


Does that list rings any bells?? All the above genocides were committed by so called " Christians", so should we condemn christianity? The answer in no.

And they werent committed in the name of Christianity, or as part of a Christian jihad. But all this is just more deflection, because an honest debate of the issues is something you seek to avoid. It could never be won on the merits, so, change the merits.


As far as Muslims go, they respect Christianity, For example, a Muslim has to show respect while talking about Jesus "My Master Jesus Peace be upon him".

Some do. Many don't. Look at the way Christians are treated throughout the Islamic world. They are persecuted and prevented from practising their faith.



By Insulting Islam and Muslim you are just giving more air munitions to radicals from both sides, and antagonizing another 2 billion Muslims.


That's unfortunate really, because you'd think that people in the Islamic world would reject the violence perpretrated in the name of Islam. But instead the focus is on either telling infidels to stop noticing it, or to deflect the argument onto the infidels for having the audacity to notice the violence, and hatred and the reasons for it.

But whether there are 1 Billion, 2 billion or 5 billion muslims that are so brittle they cannot take any criticism doesnt matter. It is too important not to be discussed.

[Nobi]

How old are you 5????
Where are you from again? Poland?

Stay out from our country!!!!!

[DZMouloudia]

Originally Posted by Nobi
Move your ****ing ass**** from here, this is our country and we live how we like it, we don´t need here a kalifat or sharia. Move away from our country or we bomb you away from here mister.

That's the kind of civilized discussions i was just talking about :)

Nobi, you seem to be frustrated, are you ok??? you need a hug??? have not heard of any mass immigration to Poland yet:)

is that you in this movie:

http://current.com/items/84906361_from_russia_with_hate

[DZMouloudia]

I never said that Muslims were perfect, my point was that the West and Christians are not perfect and neither are Muslims.

So what is the solution??? put all the muslims in ghettos?? Kill them all? Convert them?

Maybe you guys should come up with something similar to the SS, and just go house to house right??

[Calanen]

I never said that Muslims were perfect, my point was that the West and Christians are not perfect and neither are Muslims.

There is not a competition as to who is perfect, only a problem which has to be addressed.




So what is the solution??? put all the muslims in ghettos?? Kill them all? Convert them?


How about all muslims start rescinding any notion of violence against infidels, jihad, and stop attempting to subvert the democratic government of infidels. How about that? Instead of criticising the infidels who NOTICE that certain muslims are doing these things, why not help us stop it.

Instead, whenever genuine grievances are raised, attacking the infidel is seen as the best solution - instead of dealing openly and honestly with the matter raised.



Maybe you guys should come up with something similar to the SS, and just go house to house right??



The Nazi card is getting a real workout lately.

What about just dealing with the arguments raised instead of using Nazi hyperbole.

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/3956/nazicardtn5.png (http://imageshack.us)

[Nobi]

Since 2007 Poland we have a growing muslim immigration? Who asked us??? Polish muslims do hate speech against polish army, USA, Jews,Russia ect... Here is one example: 3. Main problems that the community is currently facing. · Poland is a country dominated by Christians, by as much as 99 per cent. Link: http://www.planetaislam.com/poland/report.html Do you have a problem with that???? http://www.islam-in-poland.org/ http://www.cii.gov.pk/Articles/islaminwest.asp http://www.planetaislam.com/poland/index.html I hope we see much less muslims here in future.

[DZMouloudia]

-Spanish requonquista.
The Spaniards were able to take back their *own* land from the Muslims, they wouldn't be slaves under Islamic overlords anymore - how very rude of them.

So they had to kill every single jew and muslim that did not convert, oh yeap that very holly thing to do


So what. The Crusades were predominantly defensive wars to combat islamic aggression, Islam found itself out of Medina and in Spain and France somehow. Wonder how that happened.

Again they had to kill every Muslim and jews after Taking Jerusalem back, i hope that you notices that when Salah dine got Jersualem he did let them go( wonder why?)


Some do. Many don't. Look at the way Christians are treated throughout the Islamic world. They are persecuted and prevented from practising their faith.

If you go by the book( Islam) you have to respect Christianity( can not force Christian to convert) here i was talking about the Islam as a religion, not the hijacked Islam practiced but some morons here and there.



This is just deflection. You cannot debate the global jihad on the merits,so you say 'Oh yeah, well, what about you!' Make a native indian thread if you want to, but stop the deflection - it's just old.

We are taking about the acts of the so called " holly Christians" if the victims were Indians or Muslims it does not really matter, a GENOCIDE IS A GENOCIDE.

Anyway, my hole point is that religions are Holly( Islam, Christianity) but people are not.


Jihad??? all the f**** that are using this word dont know what they are talking about, Islam forbid KILLING innocents, and killing one innocent soul is like killing the whole world. and just like i told you earlier the religion is holly but people are not

[DZMouloudia]

Since 2007 Poland we have a growing muslim immigration? Who asked us??? Polish muslims do hate speech against polish army, USA, Jews ect... Here is one example: 3. Main problems that the community is currently facing. · Poland is a country dominated by Christians, by as much as 99 per cent. Link: http://www.planetaislam.com/poland/report.html Do you have a problem with that???? http://www.islam-in-poland.org/ http://www.cii.gov.pk/Articles/islaminwest.asp http://www.planetaislam.com/poland/index.html I hope we see much less muslims here in future.

We speak ENGLISH HERE.
Have you heard of sentences before??
Go eat some more potato:)

[The Balkan]

Jihad??? all the f**** that are using this word dont know what they are talking about, Islam forbid KILLING innocents, and killing one innocent soul is like killing the whole world. and just like i told you earlier the religion is holly but people are not

Yea but that's useless when a few idots decide their interpertation is better and more useful to meet their goals.

Imagine if Al-Queda didn't use Islam as a recruiting tool, if it wasn't "Oh they're attacking Islam and everything we are, help! They want to destroy us! God tells us to fight!". Imagine if it was "well we're the taliban and al-queda and we basicly want to run sh!t and we need more manpower so....join in".

somehow i dont think that would be as effective..

[Calanen]

Jihad??? all the f**** that are using this word dont know what they are talking about, Islam forbid KILLING innocents, and killing one innocent soul is like killing the whole world. and just like i told you earlier the religion is holly but people are not

Maybe that is what you believe. But it is not what many of your muslim brothers believe.

And there are two types of jihad that are a threat to the West. The open fighting one, which is Al Quada and so on. My belief is that this is less of a threat than the next one, which is the stealth jihad.

The stealth jihad seeks to weaken existing beliefs and institutions in the West, and islamify them. That is happening by incrementalism. Change the law here. Change the food here. Additional rights there. And over time, more and more things are islamified.

I like the West, I like it the way it is. I don't want it Islamified.

This is the openly stated goal of the Muslim Brotherhood, in a document translated into English, that 100s of muslim charities, educational institutions and pressure front groups signed on for. It was tendered as evidence in the Holy Land Foundation trial.

This is all very difficult for the infidel to understand, Islam is a complex religion. I had to do a lot of reading myself to get to the bottom of it all - but I am no stranger to learning, having done a lot of it. While complex, it is not arcane - and certainly not beyond me.

The difficulty for me is conveying something that is complex in a simplified fashion to the masses of infidels - life is hard, people are busy. Apathy nearly always wins.

But people need to know - otherwise they will wake up and they will be living in Sharia Land, and will wonder how the hell it ever happened.

[The Balkan]

Basicly most of these could be calmed down and partly solved by some senseible, prominent Muslim leaders making it their mission to eradicate this bull****, and working with the West and actualy bringing some results to the Arab world in terms of what they want. And it's being done a little in some places, but it's usualy not by the Muslims themsevles but by outside forces like the US.

Muslims need a Martin Luther King. They need a Pope. They need someone to stop the chaos. A positive influence. And they need to do everything they can to condemn these dip****s and show them no place in their countries are safe or welcoming for them.

[DZMouloudia]

Basicly most of these could be calmed down and partly solved by some senseible, prominent Muslim leaders making it their mission to eradicate this bull****, and working with the West and actualy bringing some results to the Arab world in terms of what they want. And it's being done a little in some places, but it's usualy not by the Muslims themsevles but by outside forces like the US.

Muslims need a Martin Luther King. They need a Pope. They need someone to stop the chaos. A positive influence. And they need to do everything they can to condemn these dip****s and show them no place in their countries are safe or welcoming for them.

You are right, Muslim world need more reformers, But what it need the most is more dialogue between the religions and less Fear mongering.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

You got that one right, buddy. :roll:

Since when did I become your buddy?

[big_les]

Again reverting cause and reason.:cantbeli:
Any person coming to any country just by fact of crossing border is agree with local laws and way of life.
As simple as that.

I agree. And anyone breaking those laws should be punished and deported. Which leaves the vast majority as innocent. Which was my point.


What Calanen, being lawyer, and many other policemen, lawyers, bureaucrats, university professors etc. are telling, that PC crap is big way overhead. There should be law applied, and it should apply to everybody. Muslims, gipsies, chines included.

I agree. Cite an individual case where a hardliner wasn't deported, jailed, or otherwise dealt with, and I will agree with you both til the cows come home. But what's being proposed here is more far-reaching than that. It's about Muslims in general, because of who they are, not what they've done. That's what I have a problem with. Even those protesting free speech (!) and trying to stir up hatred on the street, have rights to some extent. Yet we ARE doing something about it. Laws against inciting racial and religious hatred. Brought in by a "liberal" government.


At present there huge organized groups of muslims who ignore local rules, harass locals (I know personally dutch people who left their home because they "failed to keep peaceful relations" with crazy moroccans) and basically these groups parasite on local comunities.

Can't speak for the Netherlands, but there are no such huge organised groups here.


There should be no excuses for muslims in european countries. Same rules and laws should be applied to everybody, muslims included.

Yep. Same rules and laws, absolutely.


At present the system is broken, a number of communities in Germany (Berlin areas for CS!), the Netherlands(small areas around Rotterdamm), Belgium (A'pen, etc.), France (many, many small areas around practically all big cities) are of limit for local authorities. It is preposterous.

Evidence? I'm only familiar with the UK experience, which involves isolated pockets of fvkwits, as well as overblown BS in the tabloids.


At present problems are very local, and are not too bad. Yet.

To prevent that the muslim community has to make big steps to reform and modernize itself. Or else....

Or else what? Why is it 100% their responsibility? If a group of christians stirs up trouble, is your christian neighbour or relative responsible for stopping them? Efforts ARE being made by British muslim groups and individuals, it's just that the OH NOES!!!1 brigade are more than happy to ignore them.


I wonder what would happen with policeman if the victim would be some arab....

I assume you realise that they thought he WAS arab, or at least muslim. Had they accidentally killed an innocent muslim rather than the innocent Catholic they did kill, no doubt there would have been even more of a shytestorm from the public and the press. And rightfully so, as it could actually have added to problems of social cohesion rather than just being a personal and moral tragedy. Not that the life of an individual muslim SHOULD have any greater weight.

[DZMouloudia]

Maybe that is what you believe. But it is not what many of your muslim brothers believe.

And there are two types of jihad that are a threat to the West. The open fighting one, which is Al Quada and so on. My belief is that this is less of a threat than the next one, which is the stealth jihad.

The stealth jihad seeks to weaken existing beliefs and institutions in the West, and islamify them. That is happening by incrementalism. Change the law here. Change the food here. Additional rights there. And over time, more and more things are islamified.

I like the West, I like it the way it is. I don't want it Islamified.

This is the openly stated goal of the Muslim Brotherhood, in a document translated into English, that 100s of muslim charities, educational institutions and pressure front groups signed on for. It was tendered as evidence in the Holy Land Foundation trial.

This is all very difficult for the infidel to understand, Islam is a complex religion. I had to do a lot of reading myself to get to the bottom of it all - but I am no stranger to learning, having done a lot of it. While complex, it is not arcane - and certainly not beyond me.

The difficulty for me is conveying something that is complex in a simplified fashion to the masses of infidels - life is hard, people are busy. Apathy nearly always wins.

But people need to know - otherwise they will wake up and they will be living in Sharia Land, and will wonder how the hell it ever happened.


Forgive me but i just couldnt help it but notice the similarities between your analogy and Germany in the 30's.

Muslims are out to control our society and change our way of life, Guess what Nazis thought the same about Jews, they thought that they were out to control the western society with their wealth. You are using your stealth understanding of Islam, and Nazi's used The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

And no i am not using the Nazi Card, just being pragmatic.

[PVJ]

Forgive me but i just couldnt help it but notice the similarities between your analogy and Germany in the 30's.

Muslims are out to control our society and change our way of life, Guess what Nazis thought the same about Jews, they thought that they were out to control the western society with their wealth. You are using your stealth understanding of Islam, and Nazi's used The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

And no i am not using the Nazi Card, just being pragmatic.

Dude, you just played the nazi card in response to an accusation of playing the nazi card. 0,o

How did Jews want to change the way of life in Germany? They never tried to force judaism and jewish customs in German schools, hell they opened their own schools just so they wouldnt have to demand anything of German institutions, if anything they were being considerate.

[DZMouloudia]

Dude, you just played the nazi card in response to an accusation of playing the nazi card. 0,o

How did Jews want to change the way of life in Germany? They never tried to force judaism and jewish customs in German schools, hell they opened their own schools just so they wouldnt have to demand anything of German institutions, if anything they were being considerate.

You did not read my post:)
I was saying that the nazis were accusing Jews of trying to control Their society, Just like Calanen is accusing Muslim of trying to control the western societies, and in both cases its complete BS.

[CPL Trevoga]

You, mother****ks in Europe launched Crusades and sh*t, so it's God's punishment for your sins.

[Calanen]

You, mother****ks in Europe launched Crusades and sh*t, so it's God's punishment for your sins.

And lucky we did too. Otherwise, Europe would already be Eurabia. This is now Round 2, actually Round 3. Round 2 was the Siege of Vienna.

[Calanen]

You did not read my post:)
I was saying that the nazis were accusing Jews of trying to control Their society, Just like Calanen is accusing Muslim of trying to control the western societies, and in both cases its complete BS.

This is the tired old cliche trotted out when anyone says anything about limiting immigration, or notices the avalanche of jihad all around them - you are a Nazi. It is Lazarus with a triple bypass in the world of cliches, and just needs to be ignored.

So no more Nazi cliches - just deal with the facts.

[PVJ]

You, mother****ks in Europe launched Crusades and sh*t, so it's God's punishment for your sins.

Christians havent crusaded jerusalem for bout 800 years so i think you can let it go.

[CPL Trevoga]

Christians havent crusaded jerusalem for bout 800 years so i think you can let it go.

I can let it go, but the world "crusader" means lowest of the murderers for Arabs. I don't think they forgot.

[PeterRJG]

I can let it go, but the world "crusader" means lowest of the murderers for Arabs. I don't think they forgot.

Dare we play schoolyard games here, but they went on the crusades first. Islam was founded in Arabia - where is Jerusalem again?

[DZMouloudia]

SO what's the solution? Outlawing Islam? or do like Ann Coulter suggested, convert them in masses??

All what you are doing is Fear mongering:) its dangerous what you are doing, you are " promoting hate" with your stealth Jihad

[Calanen]

Cite an individual case where a hardliner wasn't deported, jailed, or otherwise dealt with, and I will agree with you both til the cows come home.


I can cite a number.

What about Abu Qatada, the right hand man of Osama Bin Ladin in Europe. Can't deport him to Jordan because well, Jordan might torture him. So no problem, we'll give him a big house for his 6 kids and wife at taxpayer expense, and welfare for the rest of his life.

But surely he has learnt his lesson from the Iron Fist of British justice, so there is no way he is going to preach jihad to the islamic masses now. No sir. That was all in the past.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/radical-muslim-cleric-with-links-to-bin-laden-is-freed-on-bail-824777.html


The Government had intended to deport him after it agreed a memorandum of understanding with Jordan that terror suspects would not be harmed after their return. But the Court of Appeal concluded last month that because of the issue of evidence obtained by torture in Jordan, he could not be deported.

What about Sheikh Hilali in Australia? CIA warns us not to let him in, and Prime Minister Keating overrules the then Immigration and Defence Ministers. He is granted a resident's visa. He then goes on to call women who are raped as uncovered meat because they dont wear the veil, and that you cannot blame the cats, you must blame the meat. He says a whole heap of other stupid things, and is the religious leader of all muslims in Australia, or was. He is gone now.

Or how about the people who were stopped from taking weapons onto planes and let go. They just happened to be muslims. I can tell you as a whiter shade of pale that I am, if I had bomb parts concealed in my shoe I'd be doing time in Supermax. But not these guys. And this is just what we know - how much is there we don't know:

Fed up with having to take your shoes off when passing through airport security? Annie Jacobsen says there are more suspicious shoes found - and more suspicious people let go - than you might think.

November 3, 2007 - by Annie Jacobsen (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/author/anniejacobsen/)
Support Pajamas Media; Visit Our Advertisers

Last Friday, a secret, DHS-FBI joint intelligence memo surfaced (http://www.*******.com/article/topNews/idUSN2635505120071026), alerting airport screeners to be on the lookout for shoe bombs. The alert, titled “Terrorist Use of Modified Footwear to Conceal Explosive Devices,” came on the heels of intelligence gleaned from “European authorities” who, just last month, discovered a suspicious pair of shoes under a bus traveling across international borders. Included with the photograph of the terrorist’s shoes were these details:

The shoes-made of leather with thick rubber soles-were modified so that the insole of each shoe could be removed for access to the hollow interior of the rubber sole. Electric blasting caps were placed inside the hollow rubber sole, and the insole was glued to the rubber sole to appear as if the shoe was never modified.
Sounds pretty terrorist-like, indeed. If you’re one of the approximately two million people (http://www.modernagent.com/Resources/Editorial.aspx?n=30180) who remove their shoes today, and every day, at U.S. airports, knowing terrorists are still at work concealing bombs in shoes might make you feel less likely to argue with airport screeners over the matter. But also in the DHS/FBI memo, intelligence analysts provided airport screeners with a summation of “Potential Indicators of Shoe Tampering” (in case the following wasn’t obvious) to help them know what to be on the lookout for:

• Shoes with thick soles that could be hollowed out to allow the insertion of explosives.

• Wires or other unusual protrusions from shoes.

• Shoes that appear to have been dismantled and reassembled.

• Individuals walking in an unusual manner.
So the real question is, what happens to a person caught wearing this kind of modified shoe? In the recent European bus luggage scenario, the would-be shoe bomber wasn’t onboard. But the little known fact remains that suspicious persons wearing suspicious shoes are caught in U.S. airports more often that you think. But what’s disheartening — and worthy of an argument not with an airport screener but a policy maker or your Congressperson — is that in these cases, federal officials play catch and release. Consider the following:

July 11, 2005 (http://www.womenswallstreet.com/columns/column.aspx?aid=957): McCarran International Airport in Las Vegas, Nevada

An Iraqi national was stopped at McCarran Airport on July 11, 2005 after a TSA screener discovered a 3-inch serrated knife hidden in his shoe. According to a leaked memo: “[Name withheld] was stopped at D checkpoint with a concealed sheetrock cutting knife concealed inside his shoe. [Name withheld] was born in Iraq. He claimed not to know the knife was there. Subject was traveling on American Airlines Flight #1806 LAS to Chicago. Metro PD ran an NCIC check, which was negative. [Name withheld] was allowed to continue his travel.”
December 2, 2005 (http://www.womenswallstreet.com/columns/ArticlePrint.aspx?aid=1063): John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York

A 50-year-old Egyptian man, who claimed to be a student at Iowa State University, and whose name was Gamal Al Badawi (not to be confused with the USS Cole bomber in today’s headline news), arrived from overseas wearing high-top sneakers bound with tape and with unusual rubber protrusions. Badawi’s shoes were tested for explosives; the sneakers tested positive five times. “The reading for explosives was off the charts,” CBS News’ Scott Weinberger (http://wcbstv.com/topstories/TSA.JFK.2.231798.html) reported, quoting a federal source, who called explosive reading, “the highest ever.” The TSA kept the modified sneakers but let Badawi continue on his travels. When the embarrassing story broke, FBI officials tracked down Badawi somewhere in the mid-west, interviewed him and deemed the case “officially closed.”
June 26, 2006 (http://www.womenswallstreet.com/columns/ArticlePrint.aspx?aid=1138): William P. Hobby Airport in Houston, Texas

Mohamed Bataineh (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4048502.html), age 31, was stopped by TSA officials at the Houston Hobby Airport wearing suspicious shoes. Upon examination, federal officials discovered that the “entire soles of both [Mohamed Bataineh’s] shoes were gutted out.” The TSA screener who examined the shoes told local media, “The shoes had been tampered with and there were all the components of [a bomb] except the explosive itself.” Bataineh, who hails from Jordan, was briefly detailed and then allowed to board a flight to Atlanta.
The sad truth is DHS and FBI intelligence analysts want airport screeners and their law enforcement counterparts to be on the lookout for shoe bombs. But when suspect shoes are found, DHS and FBI officials are not so interested in the people wearing the shoes. What this means is that we continue to look for bombs, not bombers. The policy is clear: catch and release.

Interested to know what can be learned from catching a would-be shoe bomber and not sending him on his way? Read the NEFA Foundation’s (http://www.nefafoundation.org/)“Target America: KSM’s Transatlantic Shoe Bomb Plot.” It includes testimony from failed but captured shoe bombers Richard Reid and Sajid Badat, two British Al Qaeda Operatives who planned to blow up U.S.-bound commercial planes.

Annie Jacobsen (http://www.theaviationnation.com/) writes about aviation security and homeland security for a variety of newspapers, magazines and blogs. She is the author of the book, Terror in The Skies, Why 9/11 Could Happen Again (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1890626627/pajamasmedia-20).

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/shoe_bomber_alert_catch_and_re/

[Calanen]

I can let it go, but the world "crusader" means lowest of the murderers for Arabs. I don't think they forgot.

Who cares.

[DZMouloudia]

Dare we play schoolyard games here, but they went on the crusades first. Islam was founded in Arabia - where is Jerusalem again?

For your information, the native people of Jerusalem are Jews and falastines( arabs)
Something else, since crusaders were so good, why they had to kil every Muslim and Jew??? Muslims Did not do the same, when they took it back.

so who is more civilized??

[Calanen]

For your information, the native people of Jerusalem are Jews and falastines( arabs)
Something else, since crusaders were so good, why they had to kil every Muslim and Jew??? Muslims Did not do the same, when they took it back.

so who is more civilized??

Were you natives of France and Spain too?

[Skutatos]

Why so much hate towards Islam and Muslims? I do Understand that there are quite a few deranged and even fascist Muslims, but the majority of Muslims are peace loving people.
Since you guys like to talk so much about history....

- Crusaders.
-Spanish requonquista.
-Genocide of the native Indians in the New World.
-Slavery
-Colonial Wars.
-Holocaust.
- The massacre of srebrenica

Does that list rings any bells?? All the above genocides were committed by so called " Christians", so should we condemn christianity? The answer in no. As far as Muslims go, they respect Christianity, For example, a Muslim has to show respect while talking about Jesus "My Master Jesus Peace be upon him".

By Insulting Islam and Muslim you are just giving more air munitions to radicals from both sides, and antagonizing another 2 billion Muslims.

As opposed to the muslim conquests of north africa(large christian population at the time), persia(Zoroastrianism, Judaism and Christianity were all common) the middle east(large christian population at the time), asia minor(all christian), spain(all christian), southern france(predominantly christian) etc...Its no wonder christianity became militarized.

Spain especially became extremist after 700 years of fighting muslim invaders. The crusades themeselves were more in response to the turks then to islam, previous muslim rulers of the holy land caused virtually no concern to europe because they were moderates comparatively. A crusade also attacked christian Constantinople for purely economic reasons. In fact, the word "crusade" wasn't even used at the time and comes from protestant historians taking hits at catholics, so much of the very negative views we have of the crusades as opposed to other conflicts of the time come from renaissance era christian writers attacking the events for their un-christian nature.

In reality I doubt the crusades were only slightly more tied to religion then other wars in the middle ages, look at the norman invasion of england for example, a pope sanctioned invasion, said by the normans to be God's will etc..

And as far as european slavery goes, it has nothing to do with religion, look at Rome, greece etc...and muslims in some countries STILL use slavery.

[CPL Trevoga]

Dare we play schoolyard games here, but they went on the crusades first. Islam was founded in Arabia - where is Jerusalem again?

It's a good point there. My thing is, that you have to look at culture versus religion. You can't just put every Muslim is the same boat. It's just not right. I'm sure most muslims in europe are broke-ass north african motherf*ckers and not wealthy Saudi sheiks. That's the root of the problem. Don't import uneducated scum from all around the world and you wont' have any problems.

[DZMouloudia]

As opposed to the muslim conquests of north africa(large christian population at the time), persia(Zoroastrianism, Judaism and Christianity were all common) the middle east(large christian population at the time), asia minor(all christian), spain(all christian), southern france(predominantly christian) etc...Its no wonder christianity became militarized.

Spain especially became extremist after 700 years of fighting muslim invaders. The crusades themeselves were more in response to the turks then to islam, previous muslim rulers of the holy land caused virtually no concern to europe because they were moderates comparatively. A crusade also attacked christian Constantinople for purely economic reasons. In fact, the word "crusade" wasn't even used at the time and comes from protestant historians taking hits at catholics, so much of the very negative views we have of the crusades as opposed to other conflicts of the time come from renaissance era christian writers attacking the events for their un-christian nature.

In reality I doubt the crusades were only slightly more tied to religion then other wars in the middle ages, look at the norman invasion of england for example, a pope sanctioned invasion, said by the normans to be God's will etc..

And as far as european slavery goes, it has nothing to do with religion, look at Rome, greece etc...and muslims in some countries STILL use slavery.

For your Information, Turks came after the crusades

[PVJ]

For your information, the native people of Jerusalem are Jews and falastines( arabs)
Something else, since crusaders were so good, why they had to kil every Muslim and Jew??? Muslims Did not do the same, when they took it back.

so who is more civilized??

We are talking about modern civilized society, not a time when people wiped their asses with their left hands, slept near horses, and went months without bathing. If you really want to compare modern situations compare UK and Saudi Arabia in terms of tolerance, Muslims in UK get a lot of demands met, islamic schools, building mosques, they changed their fvcking laws to accommodate muslims. Saudi Arabia- god help you if you try to demand anything from the king.

[Skutatos]

It's a good point there. My thing is, that you have to look at culture versus religion. You can't just put every Muslim is the same boat. It's just not right. I'm sure most muslims in europe are broke-ass north african motherf*ckers and not wealthy Saudi sheiks. That's the root of the problem. Don't import uneducated scum from all around the world and you wont' have any problems.

Agreed. Their culture was based around living in harsh desert conditions, not modern society.

[Skutatos]

For your Information, Turks came after the crusades

Then just who exactly did the Byzantines fight at Manzikert?

Seljuk Empire in 1092, 4 years before the first crusade:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Seljuk_Empire_locator_map.svg/642px-Seljuk_Empire_locator_map.svg.png

[DZMouloudia]

It's a good point there. My thing is, that you have to look at culture versus religion. You can't just put every Muslim is the same boat. It's just not right. I'm sure most muslims in europe are broke-ass north african motherf*ckers and not wealthy Saudi sheiks. That's the root of the problem. Don't import uneducated scum from all around the world and you wont' have any problems.

Hey Buddy,

The BROKe NOrth African MF you talking about, represented most of the French army in World war Two, and The only French Division that fought to liberate Italy, was pretty much an Algerian and MOroccan Division,

AND YOU ARE THE MF not the North Africans

[VEVAK]

As long as European countries start deporting those terrorist bastards who are promoting extremism (sometimes publicly), Europe will be fine.

[PeterRJG]

As long as European countries start deporting those terrorist bastards who are promoting extremism (sometimes publicly), Europe will be fine.

While Europe has people like Vanessa Redgrave, that probably won't happen.

[Nobi]

To be honest i am not a big multiculturalism freak, i wish sometimes the good old cold times are back, espacially iron curtain, if european union do expand his borders again, then please give us the iron curtain back. :roll:

[The Balkan]

To be honest i am not a big multiculturalism freak, i wish sometimes the good old cold times are back, espacially iron curtain, if european union do expand his borders again, then please give us the iron curtain back. :roll:



Yea also on top of that, I've long raved about sending all Polish Americans back to Poland p-)

[Eztyga]

While Europe has people like Vanessa Redgrave, that probably won't happen.

Had to look that up, yeah, she is an asset to her country...

Ezy

[Nobi]

Yea also on top of that, I've long raved about sending all Polish Americans back to Poland p-)


Hehe, Steve Wozniak or Zbigniew Brzezinsk, Obama without Brzezinski would be much more positive for the world!!! No more unions!! :p

[California Joe]

Lovely thread.