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View Full Version : Couldn't a 9mm SMG be made into a PDW?



alexishere2007
09-19-2008, 10:57 PM
MP5 or Colt 9mm or Uzi or MP9 whatever you want...
couldn't be made to be a PDW with Armor Piercing bullets?
Is it nessscary to make a specialized PDW?
Is there a problem with bringing the 9mm to the velocity of say an MP7 round? (2,329 ft/s) and bringing effective range up to par with the MP7 (200m)?
Or am i just talking crazy ideas?

Hollis
09-19-2008, 11:04 PM
MP5 or Colt 9mm or Uzi or MP9 whatever you want...
couldn't be made to be a PDW with Armor Piercing bullets?
Is it nessscary to make a specialized PDW?
Is there a problem with bringing the 9mm to the velocity of say an MP7 round? (2,329 ft/s) and bringing effective range up to par with the MP7 (200m)?
Or am i just talking crazy ideas?


Problem with altering the round to fire at higher velocity, it is still chamberable in any 9mm. The other 9mm may not be made to take chamber pressures that high. There are other design issues too. Blowback operated firearms do not use high power rounds. They need more delay in allowing for chamber pressures to drop before the bolt opens.

James
09-19-2008, 11:06 PM
I think the size of a 9mm round limits the performance you can get out of it. Even a 9x23 just mimics a .357. I don't think you can move a 9mm fast enough to make it an armor piercing round. I think the whole idea behind a PDW is to have something compact but that offers better range and terminal ballistics - i.e. not a pistol round.

alexishere2007
09-19-2008, 11:08 PM
Problem with altering the round to fire at higher velocity, it is still chamberable in any 9mm. The other 9mm may not be made to take chamber pressures that high. There are other design issues too. Blowback operated firearms do not use high power rounds. They need more delay in allowing for chamber pressures to drop before the bolt opens.


well couldn't there be an upgrade for higher pressures?
Like in the MP5F (french) it has been made to accept higher pressures. Doesn't that mean the MP5 can still be improved?

Hollis
09-19-2008, 11:12 PM
well couldn't there be an upgrade for higher pressures?
Like in the MP5F (french) it has been made to accept higher pressures. Doesn't that mean the MP5 can still be improved?

I think James stated what you need to look at, a different round.

You can modify a 105 howitzer to take a super high power 9mm, but do you want too. There are already pistols that take rifle (high power) rounds.

It would probably take a new design. Modifications to a existing 9mm probably would not be as effective.

alexishere2007
09-19-2008, 11:13 PM
I think James stated what you need to look at, a different round.

You can modify a 105 howitzer to take a super high power 9mm, but do you want too. There are already pistols that take rifle (high power) rounds.

It would probably take a new design. Modifications to a existing 9mm probably would not be as effective.


oh ok i can see that now thanks for clearing this up

James
09-19-2008, 11:14 PM
well couldn't there be an upgrade for higher pressures?
Like in the MP5F (french) it has been made to accept higher pressures. Doesn't that mean the MP5 can still be improved?

A weapon could be upgraded, possibly. But what happens when someone puts the souped up 9mm rounds meant for a PDW in their pistol?

While the 9mm is a fine round for many applications, others offer a far larger performance and hardware envelope to build something around.

Hippo
09-19-2008, 11:41 PM
Couldn't we put .50 cal ball turrets from b17's on chinooks?

Waterman
09-20-2008, 12:03 AM
The 9mm PDW idea faded with the advent of widespread use of body armor in the military. The future of the PDW is in high velocity penetrating rounds that are capable of punching through body armor at close ranges. Rounds that cannot do that effectively, will fall out of military use, as militaries gear up (right or wrong) for the next global conflict between superpowers. These weapons will suffer from the same sort of complaints that the 5.56x45 round is currently getting (a penetrator round being used against unarmored "irregular" enemies....and often passing though targets with minimal "knockdown").

alexishere2007
09-20-2008, 01:16 AM
The 9mm PDW idea faded with the advent of widespread use of body armor in the military. The future of the PDW is in high velocity penetrating rounds that are capable of punching through body armor at close ranges. Rounds that cannot do that effectively, will fall out of military use, as militaries gear up (right or wrong) for the next global conflict between superpowers. These weapons will suffer from the same sort of complaints that the 5.56x45 round is currently getting (a penetrator round being used against unarmored "irregular" enemies....and often passing though targets with minimal "knockdown").

yea but i do have doubts with pdws about their stopping power... but maybe not the KAC PDW. And one thing that could be good in my opinion would be that the 9mm is a fairly common round and having a SMG/PDW that takes all 9mm would be advantagous over having an oddball round with a couple of mags worth of it.

15thMEU
09-20-2008, 01:39 AM
This sounds something like what you're thinking of-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PP-2000

Aldo Penniconi
09-20-2008, 01:06 PM
An FMK-3/MGP-84 in PDW rounds would be nice.

Waterman
09-20-2008, 03:14 PM
I agree that the 9mm would be the logical choice, considering it's massive availability. But it gets back to the idea that you develop weapons for the conflicts of the future. And the 9mm (in it's even most powerful current incarnations) isn't going to handle the current and especially the future crop of personal body armors.

The military isn't going to dump a bunch of money into a 9mm SMG/PDW project. The current supply of US military 9mm HK MP5s is not being replaced, except as a special use weapon for special operations units. It is being replaced with 5.56mm short barrel carbines, giving better hitting power and a standard manual of arms with what people are trained on from boot camp.

A more effective PDW (considering the current US weapons system) would be a 9 or 10 inch barrel M4 with a gas piston designed for the short barrel length and new type of ultra compact retractable stock (something that retracted over the buffer tube making it just a couple of inches longer than the buffer tube). That would allow you to use the same ammo, mags, lasers, etc as the rest of the current weapon family, and have a manual of arms that is familiar to everyone (the AR platform). All in a platform that would be a little bigger than a full size HK MP5.

Hollis
09-20-2008, 03:19 PM
Waterman, I agree, a shorty would be probably the best way to go. Plus with the development of of newer bullets it can be the cat's meow. I have a 7.5 in shorty.

Other options would be a slight change in the design, a system similar to a AR18 gas piston. That would make a much more shorter rifle with a folding stock.

Edited to add AR 18 photo.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/Hollis6475/0ar1804dotjpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/Hollis6475/0ar1803dotjpg

Rancid
09-20-2008, 05:23 PM
Blowback operated firearms do not use high power rounds.

True, but some 9mm blowback SMG's needed higher pressure ammunition than some standard 9mm ammunition gave.

I would never have fired Brit Army 2z 9mm ammunition in a PO8 Luger for fear of damaging it.

9mm 2Z in use in the Brit Army when I was in was higher in pressure than civvie 9mm ammo as it had to work in the L2A3 SMG, the big heavy bolt needed to be pushed back far enough to engage the sear (assuming the selector lever was set to semi auto or you had relaesed the trigger when the selector was set at automatic)). Low power 9mm ammo sometimes would not do this, when that happened the SMG would fire on full auto as the bolt would go back far enough to eject the spent case and pick up another round from the mag but not far enough to engage the sear in the trigger mech which would hold the breech block to the rear until the trigger was pulled again.

Hispeed1
09-22-2008, 02:58 AM
9mm? 5.7 please...

D.E. Watters
09-22-2008, 09:51 AM
Something to consider, a round of 9mm NATO weighs pretty much the same as a round of 5.56mm NATO. Factor in the fact that many of the popular 9mm SMG weigh as much as a 5.56mm carbine or rifle, you can see why folks aren't so thrilled to accept the reduction in effective range for a SMG.

That said, there are 9x19mm rounds that zip through soft body armor. Swedish m/39B was supposed to be quite the penetrator given its thick steel jacket. While it probably won't do much good against ceramic inserts, neither will most of the typical PDW rounds, or for that matter, many common rifle rounds.

armchairpundit
09-23-2008, 12:05 AM
How about 6.5x25 CBJ ammo ? It can be fired from rebarelled 9mm SMG.

http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/cbj/cbj_crtg.htm

ColinP
09-23-2008, 03:13 AM
the SMG and PDW had a place when we where carrying FN's or other Main Battle Rifles. but the weight and size saving of a PDW over a AR M4 is minamal. Franky I don't miss the cocking handle of my SMG digging into my back. The problem with the small fast rounds is that terminal performace drops quickly with short barreled guns, so i expect the PDW issue to morph into a bullpup contest. The PDW does offer advantanges to security teams operating in urban areas.

My PDW is a .40cal Berreata CX-4 Storm

Royal
09-23-2008, 03:56 AM
MP5K PDW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MP3K_ImgID1dotjpg

Been around since 1991.

big_les
09-23-2008, 07:10 AM
Not a PDW in the NATO sense though, is it? CRISAT penetration and all that malarky?

I thought it was basically a piece of (re)marketing by HK - slap a side-folding stock on it and call it a PDW.

Royal
09-23-2008, 07:18 AM
Not in the current sense. But when it was introduced there was very little requirement for that kind of penetration - particulartly for a PDW.

It did exactly what it said on the tin, and was used for exactly that up until very recently (in UK service).

alexishere2007
12-06-2008, 11:42 PM
that 6.5x25 cbj seems like an amazing round!
http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/cbj/cbj_ms.htm

but i have to say I might have seen some exaggeration... idk

400m effective range is a good distance and it could be fired from a 9mm smg. that's amazing. Not that bad ballistics either

Hollis
12-06-2008, 11:54 PM
that 6.5x25 cbj seems like an amazing round!
http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/cbj/cbj_ms.htm

but i have to say I might have seen some exaggeration... idk

400m effective range is a good distance and it could be fired from a 9mm smg. that's amazing. Not that bad ballistics either



NO kidding, pretty impressive.

alexishere2007
12-07-2008, 01:14 AM
hmmm this would be the perfect PDW/SMG not the MP7 or P90

ColinP
12-07-2008, 01:41 AM
I was just shooting 7.62x25 and it is an impressive little round still to today, almost does everything this round can do.

Kilo1-1
12-07-2008, 01:50 AM
Edited to add AR 18 photo.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/Hollis6475/0ar1804dotjpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/Hollis6475/0ar1803dotjpg

That is awesome Hollis.

Ought Six
12-07-2008, 05:48 AM
I always thought that the 7.62x25mm Torkarev would be a good cartridge for a low-cost PDW system. It already has fairly decent penetration on soft body armor with regular military ball ammo. Ask any Korean War vet what they think of that cartridge. It was very effective on the battlefield. With a French Arcane` type AP bullet, a pointed conical-nose bullet of pure turned copper, it should have very good performance on body armor within its range. That sort of ammunition should be realtively easy to manufacture. The original 9x19mm Arcane` was produced under Nazi occupation and issued to German troops. In the MP38/40, it could penetrate the side armor of our M2 halftrack at close range. Imagine a pistol-caliber submachine gun penetrating the armor of the enemy's primary APC.

The Russian PP-19 Bizon submachine gun is available in 7.52x25, and weighs only about four pounds unloaded. With its 45 round magazine capacity, it may well be suitable for the role as-is.

Catch22
12-07-2008, 07:09 AM
When talking about 7,62X25mm rounds - I got some running experience with them, since I'm currently knees deep into body armor systems on our local market. With things as they are in former eastern block countries, you have to consider this ammunition as a primary threat your soft Body Armor has to withstand, given its general avaiabilty to bad guys - mainly the Tokarev pistols. The standard threat posed by this round exceeds your usual NIJ IIIA protection level - from my experience this sort of protection has a 50 to 70 percent chances of being penetrated by Tokarev round running at its mid velocity of about 420m/s at the distance of 4-5 meters, angle of incidence 90 (0). But that's just a relatively weak round of current manufacture with thin copper jacket. We have seen and tested soft armor with 7,62X25 rounds running at some 450+ m/s reaching even 492m/s from pistol barrel - and some of these "fast" rounds of Russian origin had, what it seemed a mild steel penetrator (and there are some rumors about Chinese 7,62X25 rounds flying well over 500m/s range). The effect is rather drastic on the BA - even the NIJ IIIA+ capable of withstanding the more standard velocity rounds shot from TT pistols, PPS and PPSh SMG's.

For low cost PDW - old Tokarev round does the job against body armor preety well - the recoil is easily manageable for trained shooter, and it presents no problem to control on fully automatic fire (short, controled bursts) with SMG's. In my oppinion the round presents a fair potential for modernisation (however im not into the round ballistics at longer ranges - its velocity and energy loss since the personal body armor testing is done at rather close ranges of 5 to 15 meters), but its current shortcomings are caused rather by the lack of modern weapons firing it not the inferiority of the Tokarev round itself. Perhaps the rechambered BIZON does the job....

DeltaWhisky58
12-07-2008, 07:31 AM
British Mk.2z 9mm ammunition was developed in WW2 and based on the German pistol/SMG load then in service, large quantities of which had been captured in North Africa. The 2z load basically duplicated the German loading - German/British ballistics of 9x19mm have always been much hotter than those from the US.

I have fired Mk.2z ammo in both P.08 (including Artillery model) and P.38 pistols with no ill effect, in fact the only 9mm ammunition I found to be just too hot was Czech origin ammunition supplied in 8rd. *****per clips intended for the Austrian-made Steyr-Hahn P1911 pistol.

By the way, the Mk.2z load dates from around 1943 - ten years before the L2A3 Sterling was adopted - the load had nothing whatsoever to do with that weapon other than being used in it.

That Mk.2z ammo is a hot load is not in doubt - in fact I preferred not to use it in my own P-35 Browning.

LRPV
12-07-2008, 10:17 AM
DW58.... Just a question.

I understand that the 9mm wehrmacht round was packaged differently for SMG use (mp-38/40; bergmann). The point being smg rounds were loaded differently? Yay/nay?

Jippo
12-07-2008, 10:49 AM
I have fired Mk.2z ammo in both P.08 (including Artillery model) and P.38 pistols with no ill effect, in fact the only 9mm ammunition I found to be just too hot was Czech origin ammunition supplied in 8rd. *****per clips intended for the Austrian-made Steyr-Hahn P1911 pistol.

Ouch! Be careful with them P.08's: the hinge on the locking system hates high power rounds.

Finns had 9x19 have had two military cartridge types, normal and SMG round (konepistoolilataus) which was similar to the German round, and at least according the local ARRSE even the 'formidable' FN HP couldn't take them, not at least in the long run.

One of the hotter rounds is the Swedish 39/B which also has some penetration capability. It gives pretty good idea of what 9x19 can do.

"m/39B is the 9mm ammunition used today. It was delivered in the beginning of 1955. It has a extra ordinary thick jacket that prevents it from deforming easily, and that makes it better in penetrating hard targets. Some examples: It goes through 50 layers of kevlar or 20 cm of wood or 7 cm of brick. The jacket of the projectile also leads to a higher tear and wear on the weapon. Some figures point at up to 25% higher wear on the barrel when using m/39B ammunition compared against normal 9x19 ammunition e.g. m/39."


http://www.amkat.se/index.php?Env=Ammo&Menu_A=30&Menu_B=40&Menu_C=10&Menu_Value_A=9x19&Menu_Value_B=Ball&Menu_Name=Ball

Karaahmetoglu
12-07-2008, 11:34 AM
The Russians make 9X19mm rounds that go faster then 2000FPS, me I prefer 9X25 dillion or 10mm instead. I have never used 9X25 dillion though.

Mackie
12-07-2008, 11:54 AM
The perfect PDW is a difficult question. And I wouldn't compare P90 and MP7.
The MP7 is more a secondary weapon used together with a LMG or DMR.
A key feature is the ability to hold it with one hand. Support units and Kovoys behind the frontline or in asymmetric conflicts without any frontline are more and more attacked by insurgents.
Most vehicles are not armored and crew needs a weapon which can be handled in the vehicle.
The HK scenario is when a convoy is attack on drivers side it needs a weapon which can be used by the driver without stopping. Also unprecise burst in enemy direction can hold heads down.

ColinP
12-07-2008, 01:31 PM
I carried the Canadian copy of the Sterling SMG, either the cocking handle or the mag was digging into you. The folding stock was a pain to use and could nip your fingers badly, although very solid when deployed. Recently fired an Uzi and felt it was a far better design and more accurate.

DeltaWhisky58
12-11-2008, 07:17 AM
DW58.... Just a question.

I understand that the 9mm wehrmacht round was packaged differently for SMG use (mp-38/40; bergmann). The point being smg rounds were loaded differently? Yay/nay?

I can't say with 100% certainty, but I have always been of the belief there was only one 9mm loading which is what we effectively developed into 9mm Mk.2z which in comparison to US commercial 9mm is a pretty hot round - I can't speak for US military issue 9mm. I have always felt that the fact that US-made commercially loaded 9mm is pretty low powered has had a lot to do with US pistoleers poo-pooing 9mm pistols in the past. It is also worth noting that during much of WW2, German 9mm ammunition was loaded with solid sintered iron bullets rather than the usual cupro-nickel or copper jacket over lead, and like much Axis ammunition of the time had lacquered steel cases.

Whilst on the subject of 9mm 2z, during the late seventies/early 80s, the British military had bought huge quantities of Indian-origin 9x19mm 2z and 7.62x51mm ammo for training. Whilst the 7.62 was fine, the 9mm was a total nightmare with problems ranging from no powder to hugely over-powered rounds which caused blow-ups in both L9A1 pistols and L2A3 SMGs - nasty stuff.

Ought Six
12-13-2008, 11:53 PM
There are plenty of military 9x19mm loads that are much more powerful than the American or Euro stuff made for the civilian market. There are so many inexpensive 9mm pistols out there, some with very questionable metaluagy, and some that are just old and worn out. There are even a few pure blowback models. Civilian ammo makers have to worry about liability. That is why they have 9mm+P loads. If you buy those, you know you are getting hot ammo, and if you put it in a firearm that is not suited for it, that is on you.