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xav
09-22-2008, 10:03 AM
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1843168,00.html?cnn=yes



How We Became the United States of France
By Bill Saporito Sunday, Sep. 21, 2008
Antony Edwards / *****

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This is the state of our great republic: We've nationalized the financial system, taking control from Wall Street bankers we no longer trust. We're about to quasi-nationalize the Detroit auto companies via massive loans because they're a source of American pride, and too many jobs — and votes — are at stake. Our Social Security system is going broke as we head for a future where too many retirees will be supported by too few workers. How long before we have national healthcare? Put it all together, and the America that emerges is a cartoonish version of the country most despised by red-meat red-state patriots: France. Only with worse food.
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Admit it, mes amis, the rugged individualism and cutthroat capitalism that made America the land of unlimited opportunity has been shrink-wrapped by a half dozen short sellers in Greenwich, Conn. and FedExed to Washington D.C. to be spoon-fed back to life by Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson. We're now no different from any of those Western European semi-socialist welfare states that we love to deride. Italy? Sure, it's had four governments since last Thursday, but none of them would have allowed this to go on; the Italians know how to rig an economy.

You just know the Frogs have only increased their disdain for us, if that is indeed possible. And why shouldn't they? The average American is working two and half jobs, gets two weeks off, and has all the employment security of a one-armed trapeze artist. The Bush Administration has preached the "ownership society" to America: own your house, own your retirement account; you don't need the government in your way. So Americans mortgaged themselves to the hilt to buy overpriced houses they can no longer afford and signed up for 401k programs that put money where, exactly? In the stock market! Where rich Republicans fleeced them.

Now our laissez-faire (hey, a French word) regulation-averse Administration has made France's only Socialist president, Francois Mitterand, look like Adam Smith by comparison. All Mitterand did was nationalize France's big banks and insurance companies in 1982; he didn't have to deal with bankers who didn't want to lend money, as Paulson does. When the state runs the banks, they are merely cows to be milked in the service of la patrie. France doesn't have the mortgage crisis that we do, either. In bailing out mortgage lenders Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, our government has basically turned America into the largest subsidized housing project in the world. Sure, France has its banlieus, where it likes to warehouse people who aren't French enough (meaning, immigrants orAlgerians) in huge apartment blocks. But the bulk of French homeowners are curiously free of subprime mortgages foisted on them by fellow citizens, and they aren't over their heads in personal debt.

We've always dismissed the French as exquisitely fed wards of their welfare state. They work, what, 27 hours in a good week, have 19 holidays a month, go on strike for two days and enjoy a glass of wine every day with lunch — except for the 25% of the population that works for the government, who have an even sweeter deal. They retire before their kids finish high school, and they don't have to save for a $45,000-a-year college tuition because college is free. For this, they pay a tax rate of about 103%, and their labor laws are so restrictive that they haven't had a net gain in jobs since Napoleon. There is no way that the French government can pay for this lifestyle forever, except that it somehow does.

Mitterand tried to create both job-growth and wage-growth by nationalizing huge swaths of the economy, including some big industries, including automaker Renault, for instance. You haven't driven a Renault lately because Renault couldn't sell them here. Imagine that. An auto company that couldn't compete with a Dodge Colt. But the Renault takeover ultimately proved successful and Renault became a private company again in 1996, although the government retains about 15% of the shares.

Now the U.S. is faced with the same prospect in the auto industry. GM and Ford need money to develop greener cars that can compete with Toyota and Honda. And they're looking to Uncle Sam for investment — an investment that could have been avoided had Washington imposed more stringent mileage standards years earlier. But we don't want to interfere with market forces like the French do — until we do.

Mitterand's nationalization program and other economic reforms failed, as the development of the European Market made a centrally planned economy obsolete. The Rothschilds got their bank back, a little worse for wear. These days, France sashays around the issue of protectionism in a supposedly unfettered EU by proclaiming some industries to be national champions worthy of extra consideration — you know, special needs kids. And we're not talking about pastry chefs, but the likes of GDF Suez, a major utility. I never thought of the stocks and junk securities sold by Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley as unique, but clearly Washington does. Morgan's John Mack calls SEC boss Chris Cox to whine about short sellers and bingo, the government obliges. The elite serve the elite. How French is that?

Even in the strongest sectors in the U.S., there's no getting away from the French influence. Nothing is more sacred to France than its farmers. They get whatever they demand, and they demand a lot. And if there are any issues about price supports, or feed costs being too high, or actual competition from other countries, French farmers simply shut down the country by marching their livestock up the Champs Elysee and piling up wheat on the highways. U.S. farmers would never resort to such behavior. They don't have to: they're the most coddled special interest group in U.S. history, lavished with $180 billion in subsidies by both parties, even when their products are fetching record prices. One consequence: U.S. consumers pay twice what the French pay for sugar, because of price guarantees. We're more French than France.

So yes, while we're still willing to work ourselves to death for the privilege of paying off our usurious credit cards, we can no longer look contemptuously at the land of 246 cheeses. Kraft Foods has replaced American International Group in the Dow Jones Industrial Average, the insurance company having been added to Paulson's nationalized portfolio. Macaroni and cheese has supplanted credit default swaps at the fulcrum of capitalism. And one more thing: the food snob French love McDonalds, which does a fantastic business there. They know a good freedom fry when they taste one.

Somalimafia
09-22-2008, 10:09 AM
A great example of very bad taste.

raoul volfoni
09-22-2008, 11:35 AM
This guy is talking out of his ass. And he's full of ****.

seraosha
09-22-2008, 11:39 AM
I've never understood the whole "French = Bad" thing.
Stupid.

-Church-
09-22-2008, 11:53 AM
I've never understood the whole "French = Bad" thing.
Stupid.

Its all about preconceived ideas and playing to your base. Its like when a comic is making a french joke, its usually a guaranteed laugh because theyre raised with an inherant hate of the french.

xav
09-22-2008, 12:10 PM
What surprises me the most is that I found the article on cnn.com...

mas-36
09-22-2008, 12:24 PM
Its all about preconceived ideas and playing to your base. Its like when a comic is making a french joke, its usually a guaranteed laugh because theyre raised with an inherant hate of the french.

Quoted for truth. That aside, I do wonder if the author of the article is using biting sarcasm? He points out that France has already done to the financial institutions what the US is in the process of doing now, yet the French still have the benefits of a comfortable, good quality lifestyle with an increasingly greater purchasing power than their American counterparts. All this inspite of ages-old rhetoric coming from mostly the American Right that France was a 3rd or 4th world economy, thus "irrelevant". Either the article is a brilliant slap in the face at French-bashers, or the author is truely a moron, I'm beginning to think it may be the former.

Mackie
09-22-2008, 12:38 PM
http://www.romanvirdi.com/nyc/liberty.JPG

She feels at home. ^^

NathS
09-22-2008, 12:43 PM
That aside, I do wonder if the author of the article is using biting sarcasm?

Sarcasm ?!? Where ?


They work, what, 27 hours in a good week, have 19 holidays a month, go on strike for two days and enjoy a glass of wine every day with lunch

They know a good freedom fry when they taste one. Can't...stop...laughing rofl


But the bulk of French homeowners are curiously free of subprime mortgages foisted on them by fellow citizens, and they aren't over their heads in personal debt.Illegal here I think. Ceci explique cela.

CG51
09-22-2008, 12:51 PM
Its all about preconceived ideas and playing to your base. Its like when a comic is making a french joke, its usually a guaranteed laugh because theyre raised with an inherant hate of the french.

I don't hate the French. Well, except for -Church-


I enjoyed some very good liberty in France :D

xav
09-22-2008, 01:02 PM
Illegal here I think. Ceci explique cela.

That or people in French are educated in such a way that they are very credit averse and would never sign for such a loan.

Russian_dude
09-22-2008, 01:32 PM
People in France tend to BUY their old Renaults rather then like US lease their BMWs.

Yes, they only work 35 hours a week. Yes, they have two hour lunches and YES, the French go to a nice bistrot and have some fresh food and a nice glass of wine... or two...

Americans work their behinds off, to pay off credits or leave it all to their spoilt kids.

NathS
09-22-2008, 01:33 PM
That or people in French are educated in such a way that they are very credit averse and would never sign for such a loan.

I just checked and actually I was wrong, there are subprimes-like credits in France (called "crédit a risque") :oops:.
But they're quite uncommon and the increase/decrease of interest rates are capped and known when subscribing.

The main difference in France is that credit's granting conditions (?) are severe and must be documented. I read here (http://www.capital.fr/actualite/Default.asp?source=FI&numero=65450&Cat=IMM) (french only) that only 50% of income declarations were verified in the USA (article isn't really clear, could be about subprimes only or every credit types).

Chimera
09-22-2008, 02:20 PM
People in France tend to BUY their old Renaults rather then like US lease their BMWs.

Yes, they only work 35 hours a week. Yes, they have two hour lunches and YES, the French go to a nice bistrot and have some fresh food and a nice glass of wine... or two...

The average worked hours per week in France is actually 42. The average in Germany is 41.

35 hours is for the public administration, a minority in France.

xav
09-22-2008, 02:39 PM
My (US) colleagues here in Florida keep telling me how in France people work to live whereas they live to work...

Not sure how true it is because you get workaholics everywhere but the concept is funny and tells a lot.

Chimera
09-22-2008, 02:50 PM
A good source of information on that matter:

http://superfrenchie.com/?p=1575

http://superfrenchie.com/?p=1180

Horizon
09-22-2008, 03:11 PM
Quoted for truth. That aside, I do wonder if the author of the article is using biting sarcasm? He points out that France has already done to the financial institutions what the US is in the process of doing now, yet the French still have the benefits of a comfortable, good quality lifestyle with an increasingly greater purchasing power than their American counterparts. All this inspite of ages-old rhetoric coming from mostly the American Right that France was a 3rd or 4th world economy, thus "irrelevant". Either the article is a brilliant slap in the face at French-bashers, or the author is truely a moron, I'm beginning to think it may be the former.

You certainly don't live in France to make totally BS assumptions! with the gas at 1,42€ ($2.10) for 1 Liter (lowest price at hypermarket!), prices of houses rocketing to the sky, +140% in less than 10 years, basic food prices more than doubled like milk 1 Liter 0,60€ ($0.88), 1Kg Panzani macaroni 1,64€ ($2.42) small artichoke 1,50€ ($2.22) and so on...

And when you dare traveling by car in France, beware of all the automatic radars, mobile radars (laser binoculars), overspeeding just 10Km/h got you a 45€ fine and minus 1 point on your driver license who holds 10 points.Off course when your 10 points are spent no more driver license; you're virtually on foot.I spare you all the taxes we have to pay, and those our government imagine everyday.I wonder where is our superior purchasing power...

(I used xe.com for change rate, you can get a validated change rate at: http://www.ecb.int/rss/fxref-usd.html )

Connaught Ranger
09-22-2008, 03:25 PM
To any Anti-French posters anywhere I like to post the following information:-

French casualties in WWI.

World War I cost France 1,357,800* dead,

* 22/08/1914:-

27,000 French soldiers are killed on this single day in an offensive thrust to the east of Paris, towards the German borders.

4,266,000 wounded (of whom 1.5 million were permanently maimed),

537,000 made prisoner or missing.

Which equates to -- exactly 73% of the 8,410,000 men mobilized,

according to William Shirer in:- The Collapse of the Third Republic.

Some context: France had 40 million citizens at the start of the war;

six in ten men between the ages of eighteen and twenty-eight died

or were permanently maimed.

10% of the active population and 3,5% of the total population

died on the battlefields.

As a comparison, if this were to happen now in the United States,

the number of casualties would reach 10 million.

There would also be 680,000 widows and 760,000 orphans.

(Throughout Europe, the number of crippled soldiers amounted to 6,500,000.)

Between 1914 and 1918, the drops in births in France is estimated at 1 million.

Regarding WWII, between 1939 (when war was declared by France and the United Kingdom)

and 1940, 120,000 soldiers died, not to mention the number of French

citizens who died as war prisoners, forced laborers, deported civilians or in

acts of resistance against the Nazis during the German Occupation.

The amount of suffering occasioned by WWII in France is impossible to

assess and should not be forgotten.


Vive la France :) Connaught Ranger.:hug:

Breakfast in Vegas
09-22-2008, 03:41 PM
Hey France, I like you guys a lot. Keep being French and never change.

There. I said it.

pekka elo
09-22-2008, 04:02 PM
The article has quite a bitter tone to it. It's full of crap anyways.

I do not understand why Americans dislike France so much. Maybe they see the European way of life condensing in it. I'd say things are pretty similar everywhere in Europe.

2Sheds_Jackson
09-22-2008, 05:38 PM
The article isn't really French bashing IMO. It's just saying that for all our free-market talk, when push came to shove, we reverted to our central government to bail out the elite. Granted, the elite were holding the purse-strings of the regular folks, but it still leaves a very bitter taste in the mouth of the average American. It's the kind of thing we usually criticize when we see others doing it (although with them it's just another brutal 5 hour day at the office vs a major crisis p-)). I'd look for Congress to try to get some very aggressive claw-back provisions written into these bailout bills. People are pretty well pissed off that they're struggling on $60k to save the asses of a bunch of multi-millionaires.

kinney_bmx
09-22-2008, 05:40 PM
Its all about preconceived ideas and playing to your base. Its like when a comic is making a french joke, its usually a guaranteed laugh because theyre raised with an inherant hate of the french.
I love the french church p-)

Mordoror
09-22-2008, 05:44 PM
35 hours is for the public administration, a minority in France.

not exactly
it depends of your internal company agreements (""negociations par branche d'activité")

and concerning the administration, given the fact that i am a member of that institution and that i work an average 40 hours/week if no more, i can say that generalizing is never the absolute truth

to our foreign anglophone fellows (those who understand us the less)
french people (usually) are not culturally considering the income amount as something which is top priority. Don't get me wrong, earning a lot of money is cool (as everywhere else) especially in this harsh time around here these days

In France we never talk about money and social status is not determined by how much you earn (on the contrary in USA where talking about a high salary is easy and a matter of proud, for example)

If you had to that that the french are more entitled to enjoy their private life through pleasant activities (especially food but also enjoying art, music, sport or whatever indoor or outdoor activities, alone or with family) rather than work to earn as much money as possible

then may be you will understand that the French are very attached to their "joie de vivre" and "qualité de vie" (joy of life and quality of life)
(And no it is not lazziness ..... it is just a philosophy to enjoy life as much as possible
here are two sentences often heard in France : "l'argent ne fait pas le bonheur" (the money do not bring happiness)
"ca ne sert à rien d'etre l'homme le plus riche du cimetierre" (it is not interesting to be the richest guy of the cimetery)

Bringer of Greater Things
09-22-2008, 06:44 PM
Lol at Bush being the most Socialist president the US has ever had...

California Joe
09-22-2008, 07:03 PM
Lol at Bush being the most Socialist president the US has ever had...

Yeah I laughed at how they misspelled "most retarded" also.

California Joe
09-22-2008, 07:05 PM
not exactly
it depends of your internal company agreements (""negociations par branche d'activité")

and concerning the administration, given the fact that i am a member of that institution and that i work an average 40 hours/week if no more, i can say that generalizing is never the absolute truth

to our foreign anglophone fellows (those who understand us the less)
french people (usually) are not culturally considering the income amount as something which is top priority. Don't get me wrong, earning a lot of money is cool (as everywhere else) especially in this harsh time around here these days

In France we never talk about money and social status is not determined by how much you earn (on the contrary in USA where talking about a high salary is easy and a matter of proud, for example)

If you had to that that the french are more entitled to enjoy their private life through pleasant activities (especially food but also enjoying art, music, sport or whatever indoor or outdoor activities, alone or with family) rather than work to earn as much money as possible

then may be you will understand that the French are very attached to their "joie de vivre" and "qualité de vie" (joy of life and quality of life)
(And no it is not lazziness ..... it is just a philosophy to enjoy life as much as possible
here are two sentences often heard in France : "l'argent ne fait pas le bonheur" (the money do not bring happiness)
"ca ne sert à rien d'etre l'homme le plus riche du cimetierre" (it is not interesting to be the richest guy of the cimetery)

I wanna party with you cowboy.

Drink some wine, paint your hirsute sisters naked...I can dig it.

-Church-
09-22-2008, 09:08 PM
To any Anti-French posters anywhere I like to post the following information

Vive la France :) Connaught Ranger.:hug:

There arent any bashers today. There used to be a lot on mp.net but either the mods kicked them out or french bashing on a daily basis is slowly dying. But the sentiment is appreciated.

xav
09-22-2008, 10:15 PM
There arent any bashers today. There used to be a lot on mp.net but either the mods kicked them out or french bashing on a daily basis is slowly dying. But the sentiment is appreciated.

I guess we can thank Sarkozy "l'americain" for this.

Bombtrack
09-22-2008, 10:22 PM
J'aime bien la France.

BugHunt
09-22-2008, 11:26 PM
There arent any bashers today. There used to be a lot on mp.net but either the mods kicked them out or french bashing on a daily basis is slowly dying. But the sentiment is appreciated.


Yup tis truely amazing how a few short weeks changes the climate ;)


I expect the hate and blame to resume in a few weeks on the Afghan threads :fork:


But dont worry Frenchy i still hate you!! :)

The ENGLISH Channel Gods greatest barrier woot


Viva le France!!

http://moomookun.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/white_flag.jpg

rofl

stef063
09-23-2008, 12:59 AM
I understand the satirical tone of the article but I'm surprised by the BS statistics in a serious paper like Times.
If you work 27h in France, you're a part time supermarket cashier with a part time salary (and you're in a financial sh:t)

Telmar
09-23-2008, 01:15 AM
First thanks to Connaught Ranger for his kind words.

Sarkozy kind of obliterated the fact that Frenchmen were anti-Americans, which was totally stupid, even if anti-Americanism exits in France like anywhere else. But the visit to some internet sites may show that it has only retreated :) waiting for better times. Although some people got carried away and just followed the crowd, the movement was very well orchestrated and piloted. The dynamics of this have not gone away.

As for the article, although life in France is very enjoyable, French society is extremely closed. And that is a structural weakness.

Hundreds of thousands of young French men and women tried their luck in other countries because they could not find an opening in France...

I see many of them even here in Slovakia: leading construction sites, entrepreneurs, businesspeople and so on. They would have never had the opportunity in France because they were not succesful in the right topics that allows people to get to the right schools where you finally get the opportunity to be on top.

Sarkozy might change that. The shakeup of French society is necessary. And the biggest difference is that now, more and more Frenchmen see that.

Until then, the US has quite an edge over France.

Russian_dude
09-23-2008, 05:39 AM
The average worked hours per week in France is actually 42. The average in Germany is 41.

35 hours is for the public administration, a minority in France.

My friend who worked in IT in a bank worked that. Unless you count the extra lunch hour as working... then it was 40 hours.

Mordoror
09-23-2008, 02:57 PM
I see many of them even here in Slovakia: leading construction sites, entrepreneurs, businesspeople and so on. They would have never had the opportunity in France because they were not succesful in the right topics that allows people to get to the right schools where you finally get the opportunity to be on top.

yes my friend, you are right to pinpoint that point
In france we are very narrow minded when it comes to personnal skills and personnal capabilities
Everything (and especially to get a job) is working with a system of "boxes"

When you do not fit the box (right diploma to have the right job, right age to have the right activity, right social rank to have the right friends .....) then it is very difficult to make the people change their mind about you.
There is not such kind of thing that you may have in USA "someone willing can achieve even if he comes of the lowest branch of the society"
It may sometimes exist in France for very exceptionnal personns of will but it is very rare leading to miss something like "the American Dream"

That's something i always found very upsetting in our society
How many did not found a job because they were told they ver over diplomed, or not enough diplomed or diplomed but not with exactly the 100% appropriate skills and (which is very funny) because they do not have any experience (which obviously they cannot obtain if nobody engage them because of that lack of experience)

that's something in the mind/spirit/social habit that should be ridden off (but it is more deep that the reach of any government being left or right, it is a society way of thinking, to change that seems a very very long and difficult work)

Atlantic Friend
09-23-2008, 07:32 PM
We're more French than France

Ha ! You wish.

Atlantic Friend
09-23-2008, 07:38 PM
The average worked hours per week in France is actually 42. The average in Germany is 41.

35 hours is for the public administration, a minority in France.

I work for the public administration at junior management level, was at work at 7:00 AM yesterday, and usually leave at 8:00 PM. Even with a long lunchbreak, it adds up to an average 45-to-50 hours.

Midav
09-23-2008, 07:42 PM
My (US) colleagues here in Florida keep telling me how in France people work to live whereas they live to work...

Not sure how true it is because you get workaholics everywhere but the concept is funny and tells a lot.

Good article and the above quote hit the nail right on the head!

griffennato
10-05-2008, 01:36 PM
This seems to be first positive article about something "french" written by Americans, if this whole things is not sarcasm.