Aks in 7.62X54R other then PKM and Dragunov

[Karaahmetoglu]

Titles says it all oh and if there is such a thing is there an Canadian reseller?

[bas]

Titles says it all oh and if there is such a thing is there an Canadian reseller?

Dragunov isn't a AK, they look similar in parts but they are a different gun. You're thinking of the PSL. But those are the only two that I can think off (PKM and PSL).

In answer to your second question; no. AK-47s and their derivitives are banned by name under Canadian law so no imports. The closest you can get is the Czech Vz.58

[Karaahmetoglu]

Dragunov isn't a AK, they look similar in parts but they are a different gun. You're thinking of the PSL. But those are the only two that I can think off (PKM and PSL).

In answer to your second question; no. AK-47s and their derivitives are banned by name under Canadian law so no imports. The closest you can get is the Czech Vz.58


I think I have seen them around at the shooting range, in Canada are you sure that they are banned. THose where Valmets I saw there is no difference between that and the Ak though right?

[bas]

I think I have seen them around at the shooting range, in Canada are you sure that they are banned. THose where Valmets I saw there is no difference between that and the Ak though right?

Yes I am sure, but canada has some funny rules and prior to the ban these guns were already in the country so they were put into a different class and 'grandfathered' meaning that only someone with that class of licence could buy them and no more licences would be issued. Same as they did with the full-autos.

Yes Valmets are Finnish AKs I don't know if they make one in 7.62x54r but I'm pretty sure they do one in .308win

For better information on Canadian gun laws check the Canadian gun nutz forum.

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

The Valmets left through under Canadian are because they're hunting guns. ANd either way, they're in .308 and not 7.62x54.


And there are no AKs in 7.62x54 because the recoil on full auto would be too high, probably worse than an M14.

[-[Crosshair]-]

I saw .223 Norincos and other AK clones for sale at gun stores, but 7.62x54R? I don't think so.

[bas]

And there are no AKs in 7.62x54 because the recoil on full auto would be too high, probably worse than an M14.

Pretty sure the Valmet is banned in Canada too, Saiga's definately are and they are no different from a semi-auto Valmet.

[LaoSexMachine]

7.62X54R has a pretty good kick to them. My 91/30 gives me bruises after about 20 rounds.

There are no AKs in this round.

[Karaahmetoglu]

Pretty sure the Valmet is banned in Canada too, Saiga's definately are and they are no different from a semi-auto Valmet.

I am pretty sure I have seen Valmets around here.

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

Pretty sure the Valmet is banned in Canada too, Saiga's definately are and they are no different from a semi-auto Valmet.
Nope, they're specifically allowed under Canadian law. The Hunter and M78, I can't find anything at the moment but I remember reading they're still legal.

[Otsoa]

The Valmet hunter is a non restricted firearm in Canada. They can be found in 308 and 223 but not in 7.62x54R iirc. When you do find a Valmet for sale expect to pay about $4000-7000 for one. The Valmet Hunter is the only AK derivative that is not prohibited. Any other AK is prohib and those who are grandfathered in that prohib class are the only ones who can buy them (can't take them to the range though). For more info about the Valmet Hunter, go to www.canadiangunnutz.com and do a search. You'll find all the info there.

[rhino]

Pretty sure the Valmet is banned in Canada too, Saiga's definately are and they are no different from a semi-auto Valmet.

sorry to contradict you but no, velmet is not banned, depending on the features they can be classified as non-restricted all the way to prohibited

check the second page of EE black rifles of the foremantioned site you quoted

[bas]

sorry to contradict you but no, velmet is not banned, depending on the features they can be classified as non-restricted all the way to prohibited

check the second page of EE black rifles of the foremantioned site you quoted

Please, I'm happy to be corrected when wrong. I have a hard enough time keeping track of our regulations let alone those of another country ;)

Thats why I recommended they look at the Canadian gun nutz site.

[budgie]

Places like Peshawar and Quetta with their local gunsniths have managed to bang out AKs in all sorts of caibers.

http://www.frankdux.de/images/travel/asia/silkroadone/_gun.jpg

PS if this kills bandwidth I can change it to a URL

[Createdeemcee]

Man they're good!

[GazB]

There was a Yugoslavian SVD lookalike that when you took it to bits it was actually the AK design rather than the SVD design. It was made in 7.92mm calibre but there were 7.62 x 54mm versions of it.
It is called the M76.

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn65-e.htm

[Mate]

There was a Yugoslavian SVD lookalike that when you took it to bits it was actually the AK design rather than the SVD design. It was made in 7.92mm calibre but there were 7.62 x 54mm versions of it.
It is called the M76.

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn65-e.htm
Correct!!
Iraqis later copied the M76,but they kept the standard caliber 7.62x39,the Tabuk rifle
http://pictures.auctionarms.com/6728192500/57b592bb11bb46562407e9c586bf6ac6.jpg

[big_les]

Holy.. what calibre is that Peshawar Special in the picture?!!

[D.E. Watters]

FWIW: I've seen a photo of a Peshawar AK knock off that was supposedly chambered for .303 British.

[GazB]

FWIW: I've seen a photo of a Peshawar AK knock off that was supposedly chambered for .303 British.

I have seen a Mk4 Lee Enfield SMLE with a 30 round box mag in 7.62 x 39mm. In some regions you can get anything you want. (It certainly helps that the 7.62 x 39 and 7.62 x 54 both use .311 calibre bullets... which are the same size as the bullets used by the .303.)

[domokun]

Bit off-topic, but anyway...

I don't know about Canadian gun laws. Valmet actually made rifles in 7.62x53r and 7.62NATO, prototype sniper rifles for FDF in late 70's and early 80's. Those had stocks that were quite similar to SVD and long barrels of LMG versions. In the end army selected 7.62Tkiv85, a Mosin-Nagant over it.

As it has already mentioned Valmet made 7.62NATO/.308win rifles for local and export sales. I think the Huntter is same gun that was sold here as Valmet Petra, ie AK with "traditional" stock.

Valmet m62s and Sako m92s are horribly over priced these days, more buyers than sellers here in Finland too. Prices have inflated to silly levels. I have hoped for Sako to resume production of AK derivates for while, they have production lines moth balled. They would have enough markets on civilian side even without military sales.

BTW. Valmets gun division was owned by Nokia at some point in 80's, as Nokia used be heavily involved government economical policy. At some point gun division was merged with Sako. I would be awesome to have a rifle with Nokia - Connecting people stamped on side of reciever.

[TheArmenian]

The Valmets left through under Canadian are because they're hunting guns. ANd either way, they're in .308 and not 7.62x54.


And there are no AKs in 7.62x54 because the recoil on full auto would be too high, probably worse than an M14.

Wrong, there are Russian made AKs in 7.62x54:

http://www.molot.biz/product/vepr.php

And they are hunting guns. Not full-auto.

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

Bit off-topic, but anyway...

I don't know about Canadian gun laws. Valmet actually made rifles in 7.62x53r and 7.62NATO, prototype sniper rifles for FDF in late 70's and early 80's. Those had stocks that were quite similar to SVD and long barrels of LMG versions. In the end army selected 7.62Tkiv85, a Mosin-Nagant over it.

As it has already mentioned Valmet made 7.62NATO/.308win rifles for local and export sales. I think the Huntter is same gun that was sold here as Valmet Petra, ie AK with "traditional" stock.

Valmet m62s and Sako m92s are horribly over priced these days, more buyers than sellers here in Finland too. Prices have inflated to silly levels. I have hoped for Sako to resume production of AK derivates for while, they have production lines moth balled. They would have enough markets on civilian side even without military sales.

BTW. Valmets gun division was owned by Nokia at some point in 80's, as Nokia used be heavily involved government economical policy. At some point gun division was merged with Sako. I would be awesome to have a rifle with Nokia - Connecting people stamped on side of reciever.
Ah, the famed Valmet 78/83. It's quite valuable here, it goes for like $3000 minimum. The Petra is the Hunter, yeah. I don't think the Valmet is too overpriced here, $1000 average for a 76 model isn't too bad for the gun you're getting. The M62 can go for $2000 though.

[domokun]

Ah, the famed Valmet 78/83. It's quite valuable here, it goes for like $3000 minimum. The Petra is the Hunter, yeah. I don't think the Valmet is too overpriced here, $1000 average for a 76 model isn't too bad for the gun you're getting. The M62 can go for $2000 though.

Did they sell those sniper versions in USA? I personally seen those only in Arma Fennica books and in Tikkakoski firearm museum (not sure does the museum still exist they don't have webpage or are mentioned in towns webpages culture & history section). Sniper versions barrel probably was lot "tighter" in machining tolerances than LMG versions?

I have to say that if relatively good condition m76s or m62s goes with that low prices it could be sane to start buying them back home.:)

Shooting with "military" style weapons and voluntary national defense activities are/have been going thru rrenaissance here in Finland since early/mid 90's. And as military sales ended production of 7.62rk95, m92s production ended too. Here prices of Valmet and Sako civilian rk's tend to start with 2000€... it's not an idiot who ask for price...idiot is who pays it.

[GazB]

Wrong, there are Russian made AKs in 7.62x54:

Yes, they use the strengthened RPK receiver for the more powerful round.

And the contention that the AK is not strong enough to take the recoil of the 7.62 x 54mm round is wrong as well. The original AK-47 started with a sheet metal receiver, but the next model was forged from a solid block and could easily have been modified to take the power of the larger round. Remember the K in PK is Kalashnikov too.


Ah, the famed Valmet 78/83. It's quite valuable here, it goes for like $3000 minimum. The Petra is the Hunter, yeah. I don't think the Valmet is too overpriced here, $1000 average for a 76 model isn't too bad for the gun you're getting. The M62 can go for $2000 though.

The problem is that when you build an SVD like weapon you need to build it to higher strength and also higher tollerances than an average AK because it is either a hunting weapon, or if it is military then it is likely a semi sniper weapon. This increases costs and therefore also prices. Considering the costs of similar western weapons... H&K make plenty of sniper type weapons in 7.62 x 51mm and you wont be paying less than $1,500 for those too. Obviously they will be quality rifles, but they will not be cheap either.

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

Did they sell those sniper versions in USA? I personally seen those only in Arma Fennica books and in Tikkakoski firearm museum (not sure does the museum still exist they don't have webpage or are mentioned in towns webpages culture & history section). Sniper versions barrel probably was lot "tighter" in machining tolerances than LMG versions?
A few were imported. Valmet imported 2000 M82s too...looks like America ended up the trash can for guns that failed the FDF testing. I don't think it was much tighter tolerance than the regular M78, but I don't have either to compare.

And speaking of which, I don't know if I'm allowed to do this, but here's one on gunbroker, the ebay of guns: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=111384109#PIC
That's of the higher prices, they usually sit for a while at that price.


I have to say that if relatively good condition m76s or m62s goes with that low prices it could be sane to start buying them back home.:)
Maybe I have a nice toy to bring with me to Finland, assuming it will still be legal by the time I can move...


Shooting with "military" style weapons and voluntary national defense activities are/have been going thru rrenaissance here in Finland since early/mid 90's. And as military sales ended production of 7.62rk95, m92s production ended too. Here prices of Valmet and Sako civilian rk's tend to start with 2000€... it's not an idiot who ask for price...idiot is who pays it.
Psh, you guys can go into the FDF and you'd get to play with one for free. Or well, for how many rounds the FDF will buy you p-)

I don't see why Sako would end M92 production, there was and still is a large market for them. And they could have been sold in the US as well, should they have built a plant over here.

Gaz, I'm talking about civilian pricing...and I'd like to see a PSG-1 for $1,500

[D.E. Watters]

And the contention that the AK is not strong enough to take the recoil of the 7.62 x 54mm round is wrong as well.

FWIW: The Valmet Hunter was offered in .30-06. A friend of mine in SC had one.


H&K make plenty of sniper type weapons in 7.62 x 51mm and you wont be paying less than $1,500 for those too. Obviously they will be quality rifles, but they will not be cheap either.

The MSG90 wasn't civilian legal in the US, and a factory original PSG-1 can run into five figures. I don't think you could even find a factory original HK91 for less than $1,500 these days in the US.

[domokun]

A few were imported. Valmet imported 2000 M82s too...looks like America ended up the trash can for guns that failed the FDF testing. I don't think it was much tighter tolerance than the regular M78, but I don't have either to compare.

And speaking of which, I don't know if I'm allowed to do this, but here's one on gunbroker, the ebay of guns: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=111384109#PIC
That's of the higher prices, they usually sit for a while at that price.

Maybe I have a nice toy to bring with me to Finland, assuming it will still be legal by the time I can move...

Psh, you guys can go into the FDF and you'd get to play with one for free. Or well, for how many rounds the FDF will buy you p-)

I don't see why Sako would end M92 production, there was and still is a large market for them. And they could have been sold in the US as well, should they have built a plant over here.


I know that those m82's ended up in states, those are quite common in certain Hollywood movies of 80's, like other Valmet products mostly in hands of OPFOR. JatiMatic was also seen in movies, both are very rare weapons.

How much you shoot in FDF depends lot on service arm, moose hunters (Jaeger Companies) shoot lot more than support elements like anti-tank and krohkroh (KrhK, mortar).

AFAIK Sako ended m92 production in 1997 with 762rk95. Sako has those rk production lines and tooling moth balled for possible future use, even after Beretta buyed them they can't get rid of those, laws are in place for that. Ending of production is reason why all rk civilian versions are so damn expensive now days. New price for them was around 6500FIM that converts to about 1000€, now good condition rifle goes sale nearly twice as much, when someone sells his/her own rifle... that is relatively rare too.

That sniper version was bit different than that m78/83, it had wooden adjustable stock, wooden hand guards and different bi-pod set up. Reason why I mentioned different barrel tolerances is simple, LMG versions are designed to sustained fire and have some "space" left for heat expansion. Sniper version doesn't need that as it's not used in same manner. I'll go to library or book shop to get that Arma Fenica book about Finnish military weapons and scan some pics of that sniper version here.

And as the fact that 7.62x53r Veprs use heavier RPK reciever, in Finnish AK derivates with machined recievers all are bit heavier than regular AK recievers.

When dust settles after that school shooting.... I hope our gunlaws remain pretty much same as they were. Pistol licenses might be more difficult to obtain than in past, but rest will be same as before. At least I hope so.

[GazB]

Gaz, I'm talking about civilian pricing...and I'd like to see a PSG-1 for $1,500

Yeah, I know. But rifles considered sniper rifles are made to a higher standard and so cost more to make. The sellers also probably add a bigger profit margin as well because there are more hunters out there who wont pay big money for a military looking rifle.

[Rynnäkkökivääri]

I know that those m82's ended up in states, those are quite common in certain Hollywood movies of 80's, like other Valmet products mostly in hands of OPFOR. JatiMatic was also seen in movies, both are very rare weapons.
Hell Arnie uses an M78 (RPK my ass) in the movie Commando.


How much you shoot in FDF depends lot on service arm, moose hunters (Jaeger Companies) shoot lot more than support elements like anti-tank and krohkroh (KrhK, mortar).
Well I know where I'm going then. p-)

Does the FDF let you pick your job, or is it assigned?


AFAIK Sako ended m92 production in 1997 with 762rk95. Sako has those rk production lines and tooling moth balled for possible future use, even after Beretta buyed them they can't get rid of those, laws are in place for that. Ending of production is reason why all rk civilian versions are so damn expensive now days. New price for them was around 6500FIM that converts to about 1000€, now good condition rifle goes sale nearly twice as much, when someone sells his/her own rifle... that is relatively rare too.
I can see why, if I had an M92 I'd never sell it.

The old Valmet/Sako factory is still up too, and there were parts in it. They were cleared out, and the guy who did it had a deal with an American company to get some of them over here. There's more about this on valmet.org if anyone is really interested.


That sniper version was bit different than that m78/83, it had wooden adjustable stock, wooden hand guards and different bi-pod set up. Reason why I mentioned different barrel tolerances is simple, LMG versions are designed to sustained fire and have some "space" left for heat expansion. Sniper version doesn't need that as it's not used in same manner. I'll go to library or book shop to get that Arma Fenica book about Finnish military weapons and scan some pics of that sniper version here.
The 78/83 had a rare variant with wood handguards I believe. Yeah, I know that a sniper needs tighter tolerances, but I don't know if the 78/83 had them. The 78/83 is probably just loosely based on the sniper though, maybe a prototype.


And as the fact that 7.62x53r Veprs use heavier RPK reciever, in Finnish AK derivates with machined recievers all are bit heavier than regular AK recievers.
The Yugo AKs used the PRK reciever as well.


When dust settles after that school shooting.... I hope our gunlaws remain pretty much same as they were. Pistol licenses might be more difficult to obtain than in past, but rest will be same as before. At least I hope so.
If the gun laws are changed it should just be so that people attending school can't get a pistol. I doubt anybody is gonna get into a school walking around with an AK.

And Gaz: If it costs more, then why even bring it up? Militaries may get it for $1,500, but no civilian likely ever will. Maybe if some pirates in Africa hijacked a cargo ship with them and put them on the market, but factory direct no, gun shop hell no.

[domokun]

Hell Arnie uses an M78 (RPK my ass) in the movie Commando.

Well I know where I'm going then. p-)

Does the FDF let you pick your job, or is it assigned?

I can see why, if I had an M92 I'd never sell it.

The old Valmet/Sako factory is still up too, and there were parts in it. They were cleared out, and the guy who did it had a deal with an American company to get some of them over here. There's more about this on valmet.org if anyone is really interested.

The 78/83 had a rare variant with wood handguards I believe. Yeah, I know that a sniper needs tighter tolerances, but I don't know if the 78/83 had them. The 78/83 is probably just loosely based on the sniper though, maybe a prototype.

The Yugo AKs used the PRK reciever as well.

If the gun laws are changed it should just be so that people attending school can't get a pistol. I doubt anybody is gonna get into a school walking around with an AK.

And Gaz: If it costs more, then why even bring it up? Militaries may get it for $1,500, but no civilian likely ever will. Maybe if some pirates in Africa hijacked a cargo ship with them and put them on the market, but factory direct no, gun shop hell no.

I'll start with last (too high to be thrilled about constant scrolling). Military prices can go to both direction from civilian prices, that depends on numbers purchased, small buy for special forces can more expensive but large orders quite cheap.


Does the FDF let you pick your job, or is it assigned?
Depends on unit where you serve, how nice conscription board you have and couple of random things like where they dumb "specialities" like non-Finnish speakers, athletes, criminals and A-service class idiots. When I did my service I had "luck" of having limited capability choose my service unit. Once I mentioned certain groups, all of those dumbed and overflow of rest of "combat" units on 3rd moose hunter company due to easier management. For next shipment of conscripts non-Finnish speakers were all put mortar company, they actually made up one of light mortar squads if I remember correctly. One funny thing that happened to 3.JK on basic training season, coaches of athletes bitched about risk of foot injuries on their proteges, that lead to situation where due to that risk they had possiblity wear sneakers on combat training. As exception of rule could not be limited to athletes al ofl them wore sneakers. Signals companys (VK=Viesti Komppania=Vitsi Komedia) recruits too whined to their instructors after seeing that and were granted same exception them too. Result: rest of companies instructors and concripts had lot of cheap laughs. Lot of final service position is decided by end of basic training, first they try fill companies with volunteers when out of volunteers they will fill rest of positions with non-volunteers.

Back to guns...

Think that m78/83 closer to LGM variants than to that sniper rifle. At least it looks like it more. That single piece stock might be a result of then import laws of USA.

Certain Finnish gun shops have pretty good supply of spares too.

Gun laws here...

I dont think they can limit guns out of students. They will just make getting pistol license harder on everyone, that includes me, myself and I. I just applied for purhcase license for 9mmP pistol, I hope that it was checked by bureacracy before those sad events. If not it will be negative, I fear. I'm fearing for that typical get .22 first to prove you are serious hobbyist. And those lack important part of shooting hobby... RECOIL. [Okay, there is that ultra-rare .22LR Colt training version of m1911 that kicks like 9mmP, but thats way out of my league in expenses.]

[GazB]

And Gaz: If it costs more, then why even bring it up? Militaries may get it for $1,500, but no civilian likely ever will. Maybe if some pirates in Africa hijacked a cargo ship with them and put them on the market, but factory direct no, gun shop hell no.

I mentioned it would cost more because I assumed the person who started this thread was looking to buy an Kalashnikov type weapon in 7.62 x 54mm ammo. I mentioned one type but warned it would probably cost a bit more because it was considered a sniper rifle. The military might get them cheaper but only because they buy in the thousands rather than one rifle at a time.

[Otsoa]

I mentioned it would cost more because I assumed the person who started this thread was looking to buy an Kalashnikov type weapon in 7.62 x 54mm ammo. I mentioned one type but warned it would probably cost a bit more because it was considered a sniper rifle. The military might get them cheaper but only because they buy in the thousands rather than one rifle at a time.

The rifle you posted in response to the OP would not be legal in Canada (where the OP is from) since it is based of an AK, hence it being a prohibited rifle. The only way a person can own a prohibited rifle in Canada is if one was grandfathered for the class (owning a rifle when that prohib class was issued) and has kept possesion of a prohib rifle in that class. If one sells all of their firearms in that prohib class, that person then loses the ability to purchase and own any more prohib rifles. Of course nowadays owning a prohibited rifle in Canada is a true pain in the ass since the firearms office is no longer issuing the permits one needs to legally take their prohibited firearm to the range to enjoy it.