Fearing uma,Whites ready to flee South Africa en masse

[Afro-European]

The toppling of President Mbeki by a man with strong communist links has set off a new brain drain


From The Sunday Times
September 28, 2008


A wave of alarm swept through middle-class South Africa last week as President Thabo Mbeki was sacked by the ruling African National Congress and replaced by Kgalema Motlanthe, who has already presided over sweeping cabinet changes.
The new president is still remembered as a communist militant who urged that the country’s youth be “taught to hate capitalism”.
The real winner in the coup against Mbeki is Jacob Zuma. He will lead the ANC into next April’s election and is strongly backed by the powerful Communist party and the Congress of South African Trade Unions, both of which favour radical left-wing policies. Polls show that business confidence has slumped to a seven-year low.
There has long been considerable evidence of “white flight” to cities in Britain, Australia, America and New Zealand. It is estimated that up to 20% of South Africa’s whites have emigrated since the advent of democracy in 1994.
Anecdotal evidence suggests that Zuma’s rise, coupled with nationwide power cuts and a continuing crime wave, has led to a further massive brain drain. Polls show that 63% of South Africans have “seriously considered” emigration.
“Among my age group the chorus is absolutely insistent,” said Geoff Landsman, 25, a civil engineer. “You must go abroad. If at all possible equip yourself with a foreign passport. I have a Dutch one. I’ll leave by Christmas. I’m not saying I’ll never come back but I want to see if I can cut it abroad.”
Anna Davids, 62, an ophthalmologist, lamented: “There’s a whole generation missing. Look around. Where are the young white couples aged 25-45? At least two-thirds of them are gone.”
She said that affirmative action plans discouraged young whites from staying. “Everything’s loaded against young whites, no matter how well qualified they are.”
Crime, although said to be in decline, is still alarmingly high. Last year the country saw 18,487 murders, 36,190 rapes, 14,481 home invasions, 14,201 carjackings and 118,312 aggravated robberies.
Zuma has sought to calm the fears, but seems oblivious to the fact that appearing at celebrations as a Zulu warrior, replete with leopard skins and assegai, and singing “Mshini Wam” (Bring Me My Machine-gun) at party rallies does little to calm confidence.
Zapiro, the pen name of Jonathan Shapiro, South Africa’s favourite cartoonist, captured the mood last week with a drawing of Motlanthe being sworn in next to a heap of rubble with the wreckage of provincial government, investor confidence and the electricity supply system strewn high and the government itself teetering.
Wise voices caution against panic. “The ANC’s leaders are acutely aware that any hope of addressing the problems of poverty and unemployment depend on maintaining the country’s growth and stability,” said Frederik van Zyl Slabbert, the former opposition leader.
Professor Lawrie Schlemmer, South Africa’s leading social scientist, agreed: “The doom and gloom is overdone. Mbeki’s Aids denialist policies have already been scrapped.
Meanwhile the economy is growing at over 3%.”Zuma moved to relieve worries about job prospects yesterday, telling a Communist party gathering: “We will continue to work with business and labour to build a vibrant, resilient and sustainable economy.”
While private business is pulling its horns in, government has more than taken up the slack with infrastructure projects for the 2010 football World Cup.
This counts for little among the rattled middle class. “The great fear is that a far left government could paralyse the economy by adopting policies that chase away more investors and skilled people. This would cause job losses, growing social frustration and probably even higher levels of violent crime,” said Sholto Cross, a development expert.
“That’s the doomsday scenario because that would frighten away even more skills and investment. So the crisis would feed upon itself. What it all boils down to is that Motlanthe and Zuma are going to have to decide fairly soon whether or not to face down the hard left. It wouldn’t be that difficult; they have plenty of patronage to dispense, after all.”
Slabbert agreed: “We can all have opinions and quite likely the outcome will be better than many fear. But not only business but the great mass of ordinary young people with marketable skills like to feel a degree of certainty about future growth and stability. By definition there are few certainties out there right now.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article4837796.ece

[Steaks]

No doubt there are a lot of white fears due to the end of Mbeki, but most importantly for the market is if Finance Minister Trevor Manuel stays or not.
Zuma in charge will not be good though. Even Desmond Tutu said he would be unable to hold his head high if Zuma becomes leader after being accused of both corruption and rape

[Rudolph]

There is no immediate panic. We approve the new cabinet chosen after Mbeki left. Especially joyful is the replacement of the grossly incompetent Health Minister who thought basic herbs and vegetables were better than Western medicine for dealing with AIDS. An estimated 2 millions people died of AIDS during Mbeki's reign according to a leading British newspaper. The new interem president will reside for 7 months, and seems very moderate. The ANC might in the week announce a new party, split from the ANC as well. That would be the final nail in the coffin of the ANC. Then they will never again be dominant. That is all we fear, complete dominance by the ANC. If a new party emerges from this incident, then things are going okay.

[tyovan]

How does the new President view the security situation within ZA?
Any plans on rooting out police corruption and cracking down on crime?

Is there any internal ANC dissent regarding the security situation?

Stay safe mate, and keep us updated on whats going on in ZA :)

[wilhelm]

The new president has declared that the fight against crime is a priority. Unlike Mbeki who paid lip service to such ideals, I'm hopeful the new guy is more serious.

I don't understand all the doom and gloom currently being bandied about. Certainly things can improve, but I live a lifestyle commeasurate to when I lived in Western Europe 10 years ago, but with immeasurably better weather and stunning scenery....
Mbeki was basically a lame duck president and the levels of intertia in government has been snail like oduring the last couple of years. The new guy has already got rid of some of the dead wood. Even Zuma would likely be a more decisive president.....

Nobody mentions the fact that a fully functioning democracy where a president can be sacked is in existence here. Credit should be given where deserved.

It aint all bad....

[Rudolph]

The new president has declared that the fight against crime is a priority. Unlike Mbeki who paid lip service to such ideals, I'm hopeful the new guy is more serious.

I don't understand all the doom and gloom currently being bandied about. Certainly things can improve, but I live a lifestyle commeasurate to when I lived in Western Europe 10 years ago, but with immeasurably better weather and stunning scenery....
Mbeki was basically a lame duck president and the levels of intertia in government has been snail like oduring the last couple of years. The new guy has already got rid of some of the dead wood. Even Zuma would likely be a more decisive president.....

Nobody mentions the fact that a fully functioning democracy where a president can be sacked is in existence here. Credit should be given where deserved.

It aint all bad....

SA is included as one of the 5 major emerging countries along with Brazil, China, India, Mexico to form the G13.

Yes, democracy is still in effect, although politcs are still running along tribal lines.

Sometimes things are overreported, but there are HUGE problems here. Having 25% unemployment (officially) and 8 times the world average crime rate is not acceptable. White people are not mostly the victims of crime, but have more connections and resources to get the message out. At the end of the day we all want the same thing I think. We are just in a very sh1tty situation here right now...

[Walker-69]

At the end of the day we all want the same thing I think. We are just in a very sh1tty situation here right now...

OK, so what on earth could be done to help?

I had a South African (Boer) girlfriend for a while, some years back, but the great distance was a major problem (as you can imagine). I'm still in touch with her, sort of.

[Rudolph]

OK, so what on earth could be done to help?

I had a South African (Boer) girlfriend for a while, some years back, but the great distance was a major problem (as you can imagine). I'm still in touch with her, sort of.

Everyone must just leave us alone. The West still doesn't understand what apartheid was, or how different an African is from an African-American. Or the diversity of cultures. We have been living together for 350 years and will continue to do so. Blacks know we are not typical colonizers, and it's about time the liberal West stopped labelling us as such. They can stop projecting their guilt over genocides we never partook in. By alienating us (SA whites) from the West in the media, movies, editorials, they are simply causing some of us to become more desperate, and puts stupid ideas about Afrikaner Homelands in our heads. The complete lack of protest against white farm murders overseas has also been noted by us. It makes us realise that if we want something in the future we are simply gonna have to fight for it. The young generation was willing to give this country everything and they've been let down. Let's see what happens...

This letter by late president PW Botha is pretty much how many of us feel:

Late SA president P.W. Botha felt Israel had betrayed him (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1162378307806&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

Although Israel's position is completely understandable, itself being dependent on the US, for instance. But in terms of how we've been let down universally, it pretty much encapsulates many of my feelings. To be clear, it's not an attack on Israel, their support was invaluable to our country.

[R/cst]

Fearing Zuma,Whites ready to flee South Africa en masse

What a load of crap, while most white dont paticulary trust him we are not getting ready to run.

I am actually a bit more worried about Zuma`s trusty sidekick
Julius Malema :bash:
who is head of the ANC Youth League ( Youth is any one under the age of about 40). Although the ANC seems to have muzzeled him of late.

Most people in SA of all colours just want to get on with their lives.

[Bushranger]

Like ive said before your more than welcome here in OZ, only if they would make it a little easier for the whites to immigrate here.

Julius Malema should be locked up, if he was in any other country he would be for inciting racial hatred & the political party would bann him but not the ANC.

hopefully the ANC splits & there power will decline.

[Rudolph]

Like ive said before your more than welcome here in OZ, only if they would make it a little easier for the whites to immigrate here.

Julius Malema should be locked up, if he was in any other country he would be for inciting racial hatred & the political party would bann him but not the ANC.

hopefully the ANC splits & there power will decline.

Why don't you come here, and we'll out-populate the rest... that's what you guys did, right? p-)

[Rictor]

Does Mbeki really have enough clout to force a split in the ANC?

I hope so, because then we would see some real democracy instead of a national dominated by a single political party.

[Walker-69]

Everyone must just leave us alone.

OK but earlier, some other thread, you said that you feel mighty lonely down there in SA. I was waiting for something more proactive, but maybe I have misunderstood something - I am a bit simple anyways;-)

[kamaz]

Im a bit upset that the apartheid regime fell. Now Hollywood is forced to turn back towards the Russian as the typecast evil guys in their movies.

Apartheid Afrikaners were such easy bad guys for Hollywood.

god forbid they do a movie about people like Al Qaeda and extremists muslims as bad guys, its always either Afrikaners, Germans or the Russians or increasingly, the US government (bourne identity, syriana, etc)

[Rudolph]

OK but earlier, some other thread, you said that you feel mighty lonely down there in SA. I was waiting for something more proactive, but maybe I have misunderstood something - I am a bit simple anyways;-)

Populists in the West still paint whites here as the big evil. They refuse to accept that someone with white skin can be an African. And that we have unique problems, which can hardly be understood from reading anti-white communist propaganda. Why did the recent Time article about our coal-to-liquid plant need words like "Hitler" and "Nazi"? No one complained when we sent 100,000's to fight in the World Wars... We are not a bunch of racists, apartheid was about different cultures living under the same roof, but being literally 1000's years apart on many levels. Why do you think we relaxed the laws for the coloureds and Indians (together outnumbering the whites)? Simply because they were more Western (ie. urbanized), and naturally earned salaries comparable to African-Americans. They also got full parlimentary representation in 1984.

[Walker-69]

Sorry, I am switching the subject:

What is Zuma's stance on the Zimbabwe issue? Is he more supportive of Mugabe than Mbeki, or the opposite?

[Tyrvidar]

To be honest, and I have met many and be-friend several South Africans here in Texas that fled... I do not see how anyone can live in that god awful country.

[Rudolph]

Sorry, I am switching the subject:

What is Zuma's stance on the Zimbabwe issue? Is he more supportive of Mugabe than Mbeki, or the opposite?

He is openly against Mugabe. Whether that was simply a political trick is the question. His main support base is the SACP (South African Communist Party) and COSATU (Trade Union), and they hate what Mugabe has done to the people. So, he might carry through with his anti-Mugabe stance, even if just to appease his supporters.

[Bushranger]

Why don't you come here, and we'll out-populate the rest... that's what you guys did, right? p-)

Ive been there before & love South Africa, its so similar to OZ in many way. If you line up the pragtig Afrikaana & the saltie safa girls ill help you guys start populating no prob. As for what our forefathers did in OZ, they shot them, at one time there was a bounty out.

[PeterRJG]

Populists in the West still paint whites here as the big evil. They refuse to accept that someone with white skin can be an African. And that we have unique problems, which can hardly be understood from reading anti-white communist propaganda. Why did the recent Time article about our coal-to-liquid plant need words like "Hitler" and "Nazi"? No one complained when we sent 100,000's to fight in the World Wars... We are not a bunch of racists, apartheid was about different cultures living under the same roof, but being literally 1000's years apart on many levels. Why do you think we relaxed the laws for the coloureds and Indians (together outnumbering the whites)? Simply because they were more Western (ie. urbanized), and naturally earned salaries comparable to African-Americans. They also got full parlimentary representation in 1984.

/salute

Home truths.

[R/cst]

To be honest, and I have met many and be-friend several South Africans here in Texas that fled... I do not see how anyone can live in that god awful country.


Its actually not that bad, its a incredible country. Yes we do have problems, but they ar not as bad as some expats make them out to be.

I mean here I am at my office looking at all the work on my desk and the only thing I am concerned about is my wifes second scan this afternoon. I am not worrying about crime etc.

Rather come and visit and then make up your mind

[Walker-69]

The natural beauty of Africa is something indescribable. Here I am sitting inside, outside there's dead leaves falling from trees and it's cloudy and a bit chilly, nothing much alive except for a few boring little birds. The ENERGY of the nature of Africa is something else - the sunlight, the flora and fauna where it's not too dry, animals of every possible kind living and killing each other in frenzy, more species in one square meter than there are in the whole of Finland. Well, it's very different.

[timetraveller]

Populists in the West still paint whites here as the big evil. They refuse to accept that someone with white skin can be an African. And that we have unique problems, which can hardly be understood from reading anti-white communist propaganda. Why did the recent Time article about our coal-to-liquid plant need words like "Hitler" and "Nazi"? No one complained when we sent 100,000's to fight in the World Wars... We are not a bunch of racists, apartheid was about different cultures living under the same roof, but being literally 1000's years apart on many levels. Why do you think we relaxed the laws for the coloureds and Indians (together outnumbering the whites)? Simply because they were more Western (ie. urbanized), and naturally earned salaries comparable to African-Americans. They also got full parlimentary representation in 1984.


Just curious
When Mendela was in Prison for all those years what was the rulling Goverments actions towards those that Protested against Mandela unjustfied imprisonment including yourself , When the west portrayed the ruling Goverment and many others allsorts .. of terms .

Do you feel to this day , Biko is still greatly missed ,

[Rudolph]

Just curious
When Mendela was in Prison for all those years what was the rulling Goverments actions towards those that Protested against Mandela unjustfied imprisonment including yourself , When the west portrayed the ruling Goverment and many others allsorts .. of terms .

Do you feel to this day , Biko is still greatly missed ,

I'm not aware of any protests against his imprisonment. One anti-apartheid book from 1961 says that the ANC then only had the support of 1% of black South Africans. You must remember the majority lived in their tribal villages, without any connection to a formal economy, electricity and such, so politics besides tribal leaders where quite unusual to them. Still the same today for millions of black South Africans.

Also remember that while the Western governments turned against the apartheid regime, they officially had the ANC on their terror lists still, and Mandela could not be helped by Amnesty International, because he had committed treason. **** Cheney also opposed the vote to help "force" the SA government in the mid-80's to release Mandela. The Western world was fully behind SA during the 1960's when the terrorists actions began, and Mandela was jailed. His populist imagine was created (or fabricated, whichever word you prefer), while he was in prison, before that he was a nobody. Just another tribal royal prince.

Mandela's tribe the Xhosas are a regional power, in the Transkei of South Africa. Such as the Zulus are in KwaZulu-Natal - why they would better represent the whole country than the whites who lived all over, I do not know. They have greater numbers, but had no coverage over most of the country.

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/7697/mapsagr8.jpg
Map of South Africa

Note the two countries Lesotho, 100% landlocked, and Swaziland, 90% landlocked within South Africa. They represent what additional tribal homelands would've been. An independent country for each tribe, probably not that different than what native reserves were, except with a fully functioning government and industry, including their own defence force. Whether it is right to give the majority of the country to the whites, and only the tribal regions to each tribe, is another matter. But this was the only way to avoid grouping different tribes together, which has proved disasterous in the rest of Africa. And it's the only way to keep urbanized people of all races together, who share the same level of civilization.

Steve Biko's death was completely unneccesary, but did not come from the top. He was simply killed crudely by two cops shortly after capture, simple as that.

Of course the only thing most people know about Biko is from the film Cry Freedom (1987). Hardly a source.

But please rephrase the post, it's not 100% clear what you're asking...

[Walker-69]

Why do you have an orange free state in SA? Are you partial towards apples? Now what about lemons or grapefruit in the orange free area, are they politically correct there?

[PeterRJG]

Why do you have an orange free state in SA? Are you partial towards apples? Now what about lemons or grapefruit in the orange free area, are they politically correct there?

Is that a serious question or are you trying to be Seinfeld-variety funny?

[timetraveller]

I'm not aware of any protests against his imprisonment. One anti-apartheid book from 1961 says that the ANC then only had the support of 1% of black South Africans. You must remember the majority lived in their tribal villages, without any connection to a formal economy, electricity and such, so politics besides tribal leaders where quite unusual to them. Still the same today for millions of black South Africans.

Also remember that while the Western governments turned against the apartheid regime, they officially had the ANC on their terror lists still, and Mandela could not be helped by Amnesty International, because he had committed treason. **** Cheney also opposed the vote to help "force" the SA government in the mid-80's to release Mandela. The Western world was fully behind SA during the 1960's when the terrorists actions began, and Mandela was jailed. His populist imagine was created (or fabricated, whichever word you prefer), while he was in prison, before that he was a nobody. Just another tribal royal prince.

Mandela's tribe the Xhosas are a regional power, in the Transkei of South Africa. Such as the Zulus are in KwaZulu-Natal - why they would better represent the whole country than the whites who lived all over, I do not know. They have greater numbers, but had no coverage over most of the country.

http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/7697/mapsagr8.jpg
Map of South Africa

Note the two countries Lesotho, 100% landlocked, and Swaziland, 90% landlocked within South Africa. They represent what additional tribal homelands would've been. An independent country for each tribe, probably not that different than what native reserves were, except with a fully functioning government and industry, including their own defence force. Whether it is right to give the majority of the country to the whites, and only the tribal regions to each tribe, is another matter. But this was the only way to avoid grouping different tribes together, which has proved disasterous in the rest of Africa. And it's the only way to keep urbanized people of all races together, who share the same level of civilization.

Steve Biko's death was completely unneccesary, but did not come from the top. He was simply killed crudely by two cops shortly after capture, simple as that.

Of course the only thing most people know about Biko is from the film Cry Freedom (1987). Hardly a source.

But please rephrase the post, it's not 100% clear what you're asking...

Cheers for your reply ,,,

During the later years what was the Goverments views on the white supporters including yourself who wanted Better equality for all no matter what Colour they were and wanting Mandela's release ...


Also what was the ANC objectives during the early 60's which lead to Mandela's imprisonment

[Walker-69]

Is that a serious question or are you trying to be Seinfeld-variety funny?

Maybe I'm just blatantly stupid. Find out for yourself, there is an Orange Free state in SA. It's, like, west of Gauteng if I remember correctly.

[PeterRJG]

Maybe I'm just blatantly stupid. Find out for yourself, there is an Orange Free state in SA. It's, like, west of Gauteng if I remember correctly.

Yep, and it has nothing to do with oranges. Very mundane explanation is that it (and the Orange river) were named after the Dutch royal house of Orange.

[Walker-69]

Yep, and it has nothing to do with oranges. Very mundane explanation is that it (and the Orange river) were named after the Dutch royal house of Orange.

All right then. Actually I could guess that it didn't refer to orangefruit, but I didn't know about the Dutch royal house. We learn something new every day.

Hey, Rudolph! Check out this pic. Look familiar? I'll give you a hint: you have been there. I took the pic in 1993.

[Analyst45]

Rudolph and R/cst have said it all - no panic, no impending cataclysmic rupture of social order, excellent posts gentlemen.

[Rudolph]

Here are the words of late Prime Minister Hendrik F. Verwoerd (1901-1966), known as "The Father of Apartheid." Sometimes cited as the most hated person in our recent history. To be fair I'll post this ideologically sound, but unrealistic sound bite. If only things were ever this simple:

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/po5vy0vbYpg

[rhodtpr]

He is openly against Mugabe. Whether that was simply a political trick is the question. His main support base is the SACP (South African Communist Party) and COSATU (Trade Union), and they hate what Mugabe has done to the people. So, he might carry through with his anti-Mugabe stance, even if just to appease his supporters.

Don't wish to revive old tribal differences but isn't Zuma a Zulu?

If so I don't think he will be too kindly towards Mugabe (a Shona) after the 5th Bdg atrocities in Matabeleland. (The Matabele are an offshoot of the Zulu and sufferred 40,000 murdered by Mugabes goons in the early 1980's.)

Actually sounds a little like some kind of perverse rightous justice might be in order.:)

[Red]

This whole "i'm leaving" thing is played out. If these folks really want to leave then then really should just leave instead of talking about leaving. How long does it take to pack a suitcase?

[Rudolph]

This whole "i'm leaving" thing is played out. If these folks really want to leave then then really should just leave instead of talking about leaving. How long does it take to pack a suitcase?

It's not a South African article.

[Calanen]

Why don't you come here, and we'll out-populate the rest... that's what you guys did, right? p-)

If you are happy there, then stay. You'd know what its like on the ground better than any of us. It just seems to me from what I see on the news, that things are out of control there, and I'd be packing my stuff. As indeed many Saffies have.

[Holycrusader]

If you are happy there, then stay. You'd know what its like on the ground better than any of us. It just seems to me from what I see on the news, that things are out of control there, and I'd be packing my stuff. As indeed many Saffies have.

You would flee from Europe too Calanen.

[Calanen]

You would flee from Europe too Calanen.

From some parts of it I would. Just about anyone would.

I think it's fair to say, violence in South Africa is a whole different ball game than anything which is going on in Europe. Which is why so many Saffies have left there and live all over the world. And its not getting better, it's getting worse.

[exT70]

If you are happy there, then stay. You'd know what its like on the ground better than any of us. It just seems to me from what I see on the news, that things are out of control there, and I'd be packing my stuff. As indeed many Saffies have.

Believing in the easter bunny, father christmas, the tooth fairy and the impartiality, correctness and media reporting without agendas, political or ecomomic, is about on par. I don't know a lot about a lot a things, but I do know a bit about my country. On seeing what is reported in the international media in general (and local for that matter) and comparing it with the truth, makes me very very mistrusting and sceptical about reporting on anything else.
I lived in Europe for a while. Decided to come back. At the time I was still visited "home" regularly, so thought I knew what was going on, but apparently still watched and read to many foreign reports. Was actually quite nervous when I came back. Worried about crime and violence and the targeting of white SAfricans as reported in the international media. To an extent that I almost "waited" to become a crime victim of some sort. The reality and what was reported was however very far removed. It is not "Europe safe", but we still live normal lives, with the quality of life I live here being far supperior to that which I could have enjoyed in Europe. Now been back 7years, and have grown to have a healthy disrespect for any media reporting. Mostly just plain wrong, warped, sensasionalist and with some sort of hidden agenda.

I won't live anywhere else on earth. Having travelled to about 30 other countries and despite many things here being unacceptable and wrong, I won't exchange it for anywhere else. My firstborn is here in 4 weeks' time, and I don't want him to grow up anywhere else. However everthing that you get in life you pay for. No free rides. Here I face certain problems, and that is the price I pay. However I am prepared to pay that price, and face a manner of risk, as the reward, for me personally, far outweights the price. This is one awesome country, which due to the fact that we often become blinkered in only seeing the "bad", that we often don't appreciate often enough. For someone else it may be different, but for me personally it must become a hell of a lot worse before it becomes an option to leave.