Venezuela trying to go nuclear

[brainplay]

CARACAS, Venezuela — President Hugo Chavez said Sunday that Russia will help Venezuela develop nuclear energy — a move likely to raise U.S. concerns over increasingly close cooperation between Caracas and Moscow.
Chavez said he accepted an offer from Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin for assistance in building a nuclear reactor.
"Russia is ready to support Venezuela in the development of nuclear energy with peaceful purposes and we already have a commission working on it," Chavez said. "We are interested in developing nuclear energy."
Putin offered Chavez assistance in developing nuclear energy during a meeting in the Russian city of Novo-Ogaryovo last week. The prime minister did not specify what kind of cooperation he could offer Venezuela, but Russia is aggressively promoting itself as a builder of nuclear power plants in developing nations.........

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,429441,00.html


Chavez..with a nuclear reactor? Who wants to bet it that he'll "accidently" enrich his stuff past 20%?

[domokun]

I'll doubt that Chavez tries to get nuclear weapons and his idea is same as Iran's get other power source and export more oil.

[Kaapeli]

Chavez..with a nuclear reactor? Who wants to bet it that he'll "accidently" enrich his stuff past 20%?

I think enriching weapons grade uranium requires equipment far beyond what would be sufficient for just civilian energy use.
That kind of equipment purchase and operation is almost certain to draw huge attention if he even maganed to find anyone to buy them from.

[brainplay]

Not really. It depends on the quality of your centrifuges and how big of a cascade you can arrange with them.

5% is all you need for civilian use which is fairly easy to do. Higher enrichment makes the material much more difficult to control. 20% and you're talking "dirty bombs". Higher and you can start spiking them with Tritium like the Pakistani's.

Chavez would cream his pants if he had a nuke.

[FLIPO]

Not really. It depends on the quality of your centrifuges and how big of a cascade you can arrange with them.

Who told you it will get centrifuges?



Chavez would cream his pants if he had a nuke.

The contrary to the same would happen to your gov. if they suddenly forget this technology...

[Wonsild]

Having nuclear power stations is a first step towards A-bomb, at least in theory. I doubt that this decision is a prudent one considering unpredictability of Hugo..

[Rictor]

Oh, here we go again...

As if the fact that we don't like Chavez ought to have any impact whatsoever on Venezuela pursuing its legitimate right within the framework of an internationally ratified treaty.

He...he wants to nuke Miami! Yeah! And after that, he's going build a base on the moon from which he can preside over the United Bolivarian Nations of Earth as President for Life.

[Ghelp]

Chavez eyes Russia nuclear help


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45059000/jpg/_45059921_chavez_afp226.jpg Mr Chavez said he wanted nuclear power for energy and medical uses


Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez says he wants to develop a civilian nuclear power programme with Russia's help.
Mr Chavez emphasised that he wanted nuclear power only for peaceful ends, citing energy and medical purposes.
His remarks follow last week's comments by Russian PM Vladimir Putin that Moscow was ready to consider nuclear co-operation with Venezuela.
Such a move would be likely to increase US concerns at the growing ties between the two nations, correspondents say.
"We certainly are interested in developing nuclear energy, for peaceful ends of course, for medical purposes and to generate electricity," Mr Chavez told a political rally in Caracas.
"Brazil has various nuclear reactors, as does Argentina. We will have ours and Vladimir told the media: Russia is ready to help Venezuela develop nuclear energy for peaceful ends," he said, adding that a commission was already working on the issue.
Naval exercise
President Chavez was speaking after a global tour last week that included a stop in Russia.
During his visit, Mr Chavez signed accords on energy co-operation with his Russian counterpart, Dmitry Medvedev.
Mr Putin also indicated that Russia "was ready to consider the possibility" of working with Venezuela to build nuclear power facilities.
Russia and Venezuela have been increasing their ties in recent months. Russian warships are currently en route to the Caribbean Sea for joint exercises with the Venezuelan navy.
Venezuela is one of the best customers of the Russian defence industry, signing weapons contracts worth some $4.4bn (£2.39bn). A staunch critic of the US, Mr Chavez backed Russian intervention in Georgia and has accused Washington of being scared of Moscow's "new world potential".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7641168.stm

[SOG]

Then Papa Chavez should have no problem starting the program under the watch of the UN to make sure it is done correctly and without issue to prove to the world he says what he means and that the US is a paranoid giant. Just like Iran has proved... Or not. Well this will be fun.

[Polygon]

Chavez, always finding new ways of provoking the United States.

[FLIPO]

Chavez, always finding new ways of provoking the United States.


why? Do you think they don't need cheap energy?

[Buffalo_soldier]

Chavez, always finding new ways of provoking the United States.

be developing civilian nuclear power?

Pardon me while i provoke my neighbour by installing some solar panels on my roof.

[Nano]

This could work out for Venezuela as long as they find a domestic source of ore. If they don't have any ore I would caution against this since Washington will opt for sanctions and or blockade to prevent or increase the cost of ore for them.

[SOG]

be developing civilian nuclear power?

Pardon me while i provoke my neighbour by installing some solar panels on my roof.

I am all for them developing nuclear energy for their country and they could do it very easily without stepping on any toes to show they are 100% legit.

Now, who wants to take bets that they will do that? Anyone?

I'm just moaning the fact this fat man-gina will be all over the news in 5 years.

[Nano]

I am all for them developing nuclear energy for their country and they could do it very easily without stepping on any toes to show they are 100% legit.

Now, who wants to take bets that they will do that? Anyone?

I'm just moaning the fact this fat man-gina will be all over the news in 5 years.

Yeah seems like Chavez is more about doing things to stick it to Washington than anything.

[FLIPO]

Now, who wants to take bets that they will do that? Anyone?

So you think they must stay away of nuclear energy because of your concern? So egoist



I'm just moaning the fact this fat man-gina will be all over the news in 5 years.

Don't think russians gonna let them...

[FLIPO]

Yeah seems like Chavez is more about doing things to stick it to Washington than anything.

yeah... Paranoic is the word?...)))

[Mu-Meson]

Since Chavez just loves going to the UN, and stirring sh*t up, then surely he must welcome UN inspectors with open arms, and open facilities. I wonder how long that would last until he accuses some of the inspectors of being Yanqui Imperialist Pig-Dog Spies?

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Then Papa Chavez should have no problem starting the program under the watch of the UN to make sure it is done correctly and without issue to prove to the world he says what he means and that the US is a paranoid giant. Just like Iran has proved... Or not. Well this will be fun.

Well exactly. They can have nuclear powered toilets for all I care, as long as they're inspected by the IAEA. But once again, here we have the very entities who would be voting on sanctions also being the ones profiting from sales....so yeah, should be interesting.

[RallyPointCebu]

Hugo is delighted! Russia is pleased. Two nations are really into this.

[SOG]

So you think they must stay away of nuclear energy because of your concern? So egoist

Nope, I didn't say that at all. Your mastery of English is not too good my friend. But no worries, my mastery of anything but English is way worse!


Don't think russians gonna let them...

Actually the Russians would love it if Chavez drove the US and nuclear inspectors nuts. But I think were getting our wires crossed here.


Well exactly. They can have nuclear powered toilets for all I care, as long as they're inspected by the IAEA. But once again, here we have the very entities who would be voting on sanctions also being the ones profiting from sales....so yeah, should be interesting.

Are you saying the drug dealer has a say in the laws passed to protect us from the drug addicts? Dammit to hell! I knew this UN thing wouldn't fly! I told you all, right here first!

[Van Gogh]

the united states hasnuclear allies. Russia wants the same. Only problem is, Russia has so many nukes, they don't need nuclear allies.

[donllano]

So you think they must stay away of nuclear energy because of your concern? So egoist



Don't think russians gonna let them...

No, he should stay away from nuclear power because he is unstable and unpredictable and will probably, in a fit of rage, threaten with these "peaceful program" either his neighbors, the United States, or both like he has done so many times in the past.

[GazB]

Having nuclear power stations is a first step towards A-bomb, at least in theory.

So much of Europe and Japan have nuclear weapons?

The Non Proliferation Treaty is intended to stop the proliferation of nuclear WEAPONS technology. The IAEA is supposed to be there to help any country in the world develop and use nuclear technology for civilian purposes. It has however become a tool of the US to try to punish states that the US doesn't like.


Not really. It depends on the quality of your centrifuges and how big of a cascade you can arrange with them.

5% is all you need for civilian use which is fairly easy to do. Higher enrichment makes the material much more difficult to control. 20% and you're talking "dirty bombs". Higher and you can start spiking them with Tritium like the Pakistani's.

Yeah, call me Mr Cynical but when Saddam bought some high strength Aluminium tubes a while back the US jumped up and down claiming these could only be used for centrifuges. It was later revealed that the IAEA didn't have the right experts at the meeting to point out that they were too small for the purpose and it was more likely that they were to be used as the outer casings of missiles... which they turned out to be.

If America wants to claim they want nuclear weapons they had better come up with real proof or they will become a joke.


This could work out for Venezuela as long as they find a domestic source of ore. If they don't have any ore I would caution against this since Washington will opt for sanctions and or blockade to prevent or increase the cost of ore for them.

They have not said whether they will buy fuel from Russia or make their own so talk of centrifuges is a little premature.


Yeah seems like Chavez is more about doing things to stick it to Washington than anything.

If Venezuala wants civilian nuclear power WTF has it got to do with Washington?


I wonder how long that would last until he accuses some of the inspectors of being Yanqui Imperialist Pig-Dog Spies?

The weapon inspectors sent in to Iraq when Saddam was alive were spies. There were several close attempts on Saddams life, and when the inspectors were kicked out those attempts stopped.


the united states hasnuclear allies. Russia wants the same. Only problem is, Russia has so many nukes, they don't need nuclear allies.

Venezuala is in the same boat Iran is. It has oil, but has no oil refining technology to allow it to create the various oil based products sold around the world. Iran and Venezuala have to import fuel because they dont have the refineries themselves to make it. Nuclear power would mean they don't need to import as much fuel, which saves them lots of money and makes them less vulnerable to sanctions.


No, he should stay away from nuclear power because he is unstable and unpredictable and will probably, in a fit of rage, threaten with these "peaceful program" either his neighbors, the United States, or both like he has done so many times in the past.

Yes, in a fit of rage he might threaten to... how can you use a civilian nuclear reactor as a weapon?

[SBL]

So much of Europe and Japan have nuclear weapons?


Japan is considered a 'de facto' nuclear power, yeah.

[donllano]

Yes, in a fit of rage he might threaten to... how can you use a civilian nuclear reactor as a weapon?

He might be tempted to "lose" some enriched material to some friendly terrorists...

[timetraveller]

Chavez, always finding new ways of provoking the United States.

Far From it where does it say in the world rule book that you need to ask A group of countries permissions to build nuclear power plant consider it would provide power to many many homes any possible his neighbours if need be which are too poor to have such luxuries which we in the west and others else where have gotten use too

[GazB]

He might be tempted to "lose" some enriched material to some friendly terrorists...

Which would probably kill them all through radiation poisoning. If it was enriched to be fuel in a reactor then it would need reprocessing to weaponise it. Without that reprocessing it would not be a threat.

[SimaGine]

Since Chavez just loves going to the UN, and stirring sh*t up, then surely he must welcome UN inspectors with open arms, and open facilities. I wonder how long that would last until he accuses some of the inspectors of being Yanqui Imperialist Pig-Dog Spies?


I'm wondering how long it is gonna be before some censorious Yankees are discovered with special intention?:)

[SimaGine]

the united states hasnuclear allies. Russia wants the same. Only problem is, Russia has so many nukes, they don't need nuclear allies.

So what's going on?
The post cold war era or the cold war II?

[SimaGine]

Yeah, call me Mr Cynical but when Saddam bought some high strength Aluminium tubes a while back the US jumped up and down claiming these could only be used for centrifuges. It was later revealed that the IAEA didn't have the right experts at the meeting to point out that they were too small for the purpose and it was more likely that they were to be used as the outer casings of missiles... which they turned out to be.

If America wants to claim they want nuclear weapons they had better come up with real proof or they will become a joke.


It seems nobody cares whether they can prove it. They are just making the most out of the investigation procedure.

[non]

GazB:

If America wants to claim they want nuclear weapons they had better come up with real proof or they will become a joke.
You make that sound like some distant future possibility.p-)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

The weapon inspectors sent in to Iraq when Saddam was alive were spies. There were several close attempts on Saddams life, and when the inspectors were kicked out those attempts stopped.

Hat, tinfoil; protective, 1 each.



Venezuala is in the same boat Iran is. It has oil, but has no oil refining technology to allow it to create the various oil based products sold around the world. Iran and Venezuala have to import fuel because they dont have the refineries themselves to make it. Nuclear power would mean they don't need to import as much fuel, which saves them lots of money and makes them less vulnerable to sanctions.

This reasoning doesn't really pass the smell test for anybody that's still brazen enough to have a nose. You're suggesting that refining technology - that's been around since God was a child, is beyond them, and so as a result they have to fall back on this less complex, less costly, and more profitable solution of building nuclear reactors?



Yes, in a fit of rage he might threaten to... how can you use a civilian nuclear reactor as a weapon?

I suppose you could strap rockets to it and aim it towards your foe. It would have a huge radar cross-section and be easy to shoot down though. Or, you could lock the doors to those murderous, spying inspectors and use it to make stuff like plutonium. I'm sure they could do something interesting with that.

[Buffalo_soldier]

Iran and Venezuela are sovereign nations.

They have a right to develop nuclear technology like anyone else. The arrogance that you can say "oh you can't have that; it's only for us" is stupid beyond belief. The argument that they shouldn't have nuclear energy is nonsense.

[Afro-European]

Iran and Venezuela are sovereign nations.

They have a right to develop nuclear technology like anyone else. The arrogance that you can say "oh you can't have that; it's only for us" is stupid beyond belief. The argument that they shouldn't have nuclear energy is nonsense.
I completely agree with you but they have to do it under a strict control of the IAEA.

[Ghelp]

Chavez if he gets pissed would probably threaten to nuke Colombia.This man should not have any nuclear material or facilities what so ever.

[SBL]

Iran and Venezuela are sovereign nations.

They have a right to develop nuclear technology like anyone else. The arrogance that you can say "oh you can't have that; it's only for us" is stupid beyond belief. The argument that they shouldn't have nuclear energy is nonsense.
Unless of course, you're worried about said nations doing things with their reactors that would likely cause trouble and make life harder for neighbors, near and far.

[Buffalo_soldier]

Unless of course, you're worried about said nations doing things with their reactors that would likely cause trouble and make life harder for neighbors, near and far.

And that depends on the political power of the US.

At the moment i don't think they are in any position to be exercising that power.

The US couldn't do anything against Russia when they were in conflict with Georgia. Sanctions have ground to a hault against Iran. If Chavez were to pick a time to develop nuclear energy now would be that time.

[SBL]

And that depends on the political power of the US.

At the moment i don't think they are in any position to be exercising that power.

The US couldn't do anything against Russia when they were in conflict with Georgia. Sanctions have ground to a hault against Iran. If Chavez were to pick a time to develop nuclear energy now would be that time.

And here I thought we were talking about the validity of arguing against a Venezuelan nuclear project. I believe you said it was 'nonsense'?

You do have a point in that it seems most are making their moves now, although I'm unsure as to what sort of leverage we hold over Mr. Chavez.
I'm not alarmed yet.

[Walker-69]

Chavez if he gets pissed would probably threaten to nuke Colombia.This man should not have any nuclear material or facilities what so ever.

I agree with you. I don't know what words I should use, I could come up with insulting terms to describe Mr. Chavez, but that would only generate more anger in those who support him. Let us say then that Chavez would not be a "responsible nuclear custodian" because he has problems with paranoia and loss of touch with reality.

[domokun]

Chavez if he gets pissed would probably threaten to nuke Colombia.This man should not have any nuclear material or facilities what so ever.

I have to say that I disagree with you.
Reasons:
1. Venezuela has right to have nuclear power, when they have that they can sell more oil.
2. While Chavez has delusions of grandeur, he is quite reasonable in defense spending. Half of new hardware he has bought is simply replacement for older equipment like F-16A/B's to witch Americans unilaterally broke spare supply deals due to wrong kind of democracy. Sooner or later he will be outed from office as population will be unsatisfied with his policies.

Problem with nuclear power in wrong hands is quite simple, same technology used for peaceful purposes can be used to enrich fissile material to weapons grade. I can't find a moral reason why certain countries can't be allowed to have something that is allowed to others. Chavez is far less dangerous to rest of world than Iran. Even Iran is entitled to have nuclear power as long as they are part of NPT. Only reasonable deal to limit their nuclear ambitions will include fuel with zero-expenses (price with just production costs, no profit and reparations of economical losses of having own industry), but that won't happen.

[Buffalo_soldier]

And here I thought we were talking about the validity of arguing against a Venezuelan nuclear project. I believe you said it was 'nonsense'?

There is no valid argument against Venezuela - a sovereign nation - from doing what is perfectly legal.

Just like you can't tell me i can't buy a lawnmower.

[Buffalo_soldier]

Chavez if he gets pissed would probably threaten to nuke Colombia.This man should not have any nuclear material or facilities what so ever.

:cantbeli:

This is an extremely stupid thing to say.

[Mr.Flint]

:cantbeli:

This is an extremely stupid thing to say.
Said the person who accused every one here of being racist to Iranians....

In case you missed that, Ghelp lives in Colombia, a country that fights a decade long insurgency that is increasingly supported by Venezuela.
I dont think that any Colombian can forget the threats from Chavez and his allies, as well as his willingness to go to war for his beloved revolutionaries.

[SBL]

There is no valid argument against Venezuela - a sovereign nation - from doing what is perfectly legal.

Just like you can't tell me i can't buy a lawnmower.
Unless of course, you're worried about said nations doing things with their reactors that would likely cause trouble and make life harder for neighbors, near and far.

It's difficult to rig a lawnmower to easily cause harm to someone, so it's not really the best argument.

If we consider something like an automatic weapon or explosives/chemicals, or a driver's license, the harmful applications are somewhat easier to consider. Therefore, these items generally fall under certain restrictions. Not everyone can be relied on to use tools in a responsible, correct manner.

[GazB]

Hat, tinfoil; protective, 1 each.

Yeah, there is no way the US would use weapon inspectors to spy:


Butler took part in what was billed as "a conversation" with public television personality Charlie Rose at the Council on Foreign Relations here to respond to an article Tuesday in The Washington Post. It said U.S. intelligence agents used UNSCOM inspection teams, without Butler's knowledge, to obtain information for the Clinton administration's campaign against President Saddam Hussein of Iraq.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/39468819.html?dids=39468819:39468819&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Mar+4%2C+1999&author=John+M.+Goshko&pub=The+Washington+Post&edition=&startpage=A.02&desc=Chief+U.N.+Arms+Inspector+Sees+Trouble+in+Spy+Charge%3B+Butler+Says+He+Did+Not+Know+of+Espionage



The chief U.N. weapons inspector denied anew today that the search for prohibited Iraqi arms had been used to cover U.S. spying on President Saddam Hussein, and appeared to contradict statements by U.S. officials that he had authorized American control of an intelligence operation that yielded information to both U.N. teams and officials in Washington.
Richard Butler, executive chairman of the U.N. Special Commission (UNSCOM), met today with U.S. officials here to discuss the furor caused by revelations that the United States secretly obtained intelligence for its campaign against Saddam Hussein from UNSCOM. The commission is supposed to be independent and not an agent for the policy or intelligence goals of any U.N. member state.
Saddam long has used the charge that UNSCOM was a U.S.-controlled spy operation to justify his refusal to cooperate with efforts to uncover and destroy his hidden weapons of mass destruction. With the United States on the defensive about the nature of its relationship with UNSCOM, there is a big question about whether the inspectors, who left Iraq before the U.S. bombing raids last month, will be able ever to return and, if not, what kind of substitute the United Nations will be able to devise to ensure that Iraq obeys U.N. orders to disarm.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/access/37915934.html?dids=37915934:37915934&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Jan+9%2C+1999&author=John+M.+Goshko&pub=The+Washington+Post&edition=&startpage=A.14&desc=U.N.+Inspector+Again+Denies+Spying+Charge%3B+UNSCOM%27s+Butler+Appears+to+Contradict+U.S.+Statements+on+Control+of+Operation



You're suggesting that refining technology - that's been around since God was a child, is beyond them, and so as a result they have to fall back on this less complex, less costly, and more profitable solution of building nuclear reactors?

The technology is not beyond them... it is just very expensive and is really only viable if you have a lot of customers to export the processed fuel to. With sanctions imposed all the time and the US claiming it is a rogue state it is hardly likely to be able to sell processed fuel cheaper than other states can.


Or, you could lock the doors to those murderous, spying inspectors and use it to make stuff like plutonium.



If they could convert a light water reactor to a breeder reactor design then building nuclear weapons would be easy for them.


Chavez if he gets pissed would probably threaten to nuke Colombia.This man should not have any nuclear material or facilities what so ever.

And what is stopping him from getting some Uranium and "nuking them" anyway?


Having a stick of dynamite is not the same as having a strategic bomber, just like having a nuclear power station is not the same as having a nuclear weapon and a nuclear weapon delivery system.


Unless of course, you're worried about said nations doing things with their reactors that would likely cause trouble and make life harder for neighbors, near and far.



Yeah, nuclear weapons are evil because it means you have to respect countries instead of just being able to bomb them into submission.



Worse case scenario Venezuala's neighbours can all join NATO... that will make them safe and stable wont it?


I agree with you. I don't know what words I should use, I could come up with insulting terms to describe Mr. Chavez, but that would only generate more anger in those who support him. Let us say then that Chavez would not be a "responsible nuclear custodian" because he has problems with paranoia and loss of touch with reality.

Could repeat your entire post with the word Chavez replaced with the words Bush jnr.



Problem with nuclear power in wrong hands is quite simple, same technology used for peaceful purposes can be used to enrich fissile material to weapons grade.

Rubbish. If Venezuala decides to buy its nuclear fuel from Russia and returns it for reprocessing they will have no capability of making any sort of nuclear weapon. Iran wants to be able to enrich Uranium because it wants to be sanction proof. It wants to be able to manage its own civilian nuclear program without external interference.


Only reasonable deal to limit their nuclear ambitions will include fuel with zero-expenses (price with just production costs, no profit and reparations of economical losses of having own industry), but that won't happen.

There will be modest profit in supplying fuel rods to recover costs of reprocessing spent fuel rods. Most of the money will be made in building the reactors themselves.


It's difficult to rig a lawnmower to easily cause harm to someone, so it's not really the best argument.

It has thousands of tons of WMDs weaponised and ready to be deployed in 45 minutes don't you know?


Not everyone can be relied on to use tools in a responsible, correct manner.

The NPT is a carrot and stick deal. The stick is don't make nuclear weapons. The carrot is, if you sign up to inspections you can buy off the shelf the latest civilian nuclear power generations technology. The problems occur when the west misuses the concept to spy on the country instead of sticking to the spirit of the concept.
This all means that western leaning countries have no problems getting nuclear power, but those the US/west don't like have to put up with a whole lot of sh!t that makes them think they shouldn't have bothered to do it the way the IAEA wants them to.


Well for a start Iranians are not a race.

Actually they are. Persians.

[Mr.Flint]

Actually they are. Persians.
Nope, wrong here mate Iranians (Persians too) are collection of multiple ethnic groups, not a race. saying Iranians are a race is as silly as saying that North Americans are a race.

Sometimes Wikipedia is helpful

The Iranian people[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#cite_note-0) are a collection of ethnic groups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#cite_note-Kurds-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#cite_note-Ukraine_Encyclopedia-2) defined along linguistic lines as speaking Iranian languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#cite_note-3) They are spread across the Iranian plateau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_plateau), stretching from the Hindu Kush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Kush) to central Anatolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia) and from Central Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia) to the Persian Gulf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Gulf) - a region that is sometimes termed Greater Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Iran).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#cite_note-4) Speakers of Iranian languages, however, were once found throughout Eurasia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia), from the Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans) to western China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#cite_note-Britannica-5)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#cite_note-Iranica-6) As Iranian peoples are not confined to the borders of the current state of Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran), the term Iranic peoples is sometimes used to avoid confusion with the citizens of Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran).


The Persian peoples emerged as an eclectic collection of groups with the Persian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language) being the main shared legacy. Diverse populations in Central Asia, such as the Hazaras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazaras) show traces of Mongol ancestry, while Persians along the border with Iraq have ties to Iraqi Arab Shia culture. Regional dialects spoken by Tajiks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajiks) in Afghanistan show an ancient affinity with the dialects spoken in Khurasan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khurasan) and Tabaristan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabaristan). As Persian was the lingua franca of the Iranian plateau (the highlands between Iraq and the Indus) it has come to be used by numerous groups as a second language including Turkic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Azeris) and Arab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Arabs) groups.

While a categorization of a 'Persian' ethnic group persists in the West, Persians have generally been a pan-national group often comprised of regional peoples who rarely refer to themselves as 'Persians' and sometimes use the term 'Iranian' instead. The synonymous usage of Iranian and Persian persisted over the centuries despite the varied meanings of Iranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian), which includes different but related languages and ethnic groups

[domokun]

Hey! Guys!

This thread is about Venezuela, not Israel,Iran or combinations those. They might be on sidelines of issue, but for god sake tone down on anti-semitism and be civil.

Report filed to our beloved mods on last post.

EDIT : That post was removed for good reason.

[Mr.Flint]

deleted....

[Ghelp]

Chavez is a nut job.Giving him any type of nuclear facility is like giving a monkey a loaded weapon that is cocked and ready to fire.

He is a loon and he supports terrorist in the region which is why the US cut it's spare parts for the F-16's.

[GazB]

Nope, wrong here mate Iranians (Persians too) are collection of multiple ethnic groups, not a race. saying Iranians are a race is as silly as saying that North Americans are a race.So when I fill out legal forms that require an indication of my race/ethnicity, and I put European then I am a liar because European is not a race as it is made up of multiple ethnic groups? Or an African can't put African as their race because Africa is made up a multiple ethnic groups/tribes etc.

I shall agree to disagree with you then.


He is a loon and he supports terrorist in the region which is why the US cut it's spare parts for the F-16's.

He is the democratically elected leader of that country. The US, via the CIA tried to oust him in a coup attempt, but he survived. That is why the US stopped supplying F-16 parts. And also why he turned elsewhere for his weapons. He didn't only turn to Russia, he also turned to several european countries, but much of their stuff has American components and America blocked the sales and forced him to buy Russian.

[budgie]

Having nuclear power stations is a first step towards A-bomb, at least in theory. I doubt that this decision is a prudent one considering unpredictability of Hugo..

The man has no territorial ambitions outside his own border. And while he may be the last of the Latin 'strongmen' he's not even that strong in his own country. Americans seem to believe he's a Kim-style, power-mad dictator who rules with an iron fist when all in reality he's a typically dodgy leftist leader who wants to challenge American influence in the region.

[Buffalo_soldier]

He is a loon and he supports terrorist in the region which is why the US cut it's spare parts for the F-16's.

Not because he nationalised the oil?

[Ghelp]

Not because he nationalised the oil?

No stop with the tin foil hat theories.The man openely supports terrorist in the region which kill and wound innocent people.Not to mention every month he threatens military action agaisnt some one.

[Buffalo_soldier]

It's not tin-foil hat at all.

There was an attempted coup in Venezuela. The first thing they did was reinstate the former people who ran the oil industry.

Simply hating a person does not mean that irrational fantasies should be given credence.

[RSone]

The man has no territorial ambitions outside his own border. And while he may be the last of the Latin 'strongmen' he's not even that strong in his own country. Americans seem to believe he's a Kim-style, power-mad dictator who rules with an iron fist when all in reality he's a typically dodgy leftist leader who wants to challenge American influence in the region.

He's made a claim on (part) of the Dutch Antilles. Considering the military build up that has occurred under his leadership, Venezuela making a move on the islands is not entirely unthinkable.

[Bulletproof]

be developing civilian nuclear power?

Pardon me while i provoke my neighbour by installing some solar panels on my roof.

Be careful, the CIA could take you down.