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View Full Version : Awful mood for NASA jubilee: Is China headed for the moon?



Fage
09-29-2008, 09:38 AM
By Peer Meinert Sep 27, 2008, 20:03 GMT

Washington - NASA celebrates its 50th anniversary Wednesday, but the US space agency is hardly in the mood for partying.

Even NASA boss Michael Griffin, who is usually rather a cold technician, recently sounded the alarm. After all, the agency's greatest triumphs, notably the first moon landing, took place almost 40 years ago.

In public, Griffin restrains himself, but in private, he bluntly expresses his concern that US dominance in space could soon give way to China.
It was the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) that gave the United States its greatest national triumph since the end of World War II.

The images of July 20, 1969, are unforgettable: astronauts in their cumbersome but shiny suits before a grey lunar background, their footprints in the moon dust and the Stars and Stripes staked against a sky in which floated planet Earth.

These images are proudly engraved in the nation's conscience. Space, and particularly manned missions to space, became part of the American ethos of a pioneering spirit mixed with a desire to push limits. The men who dared to travel to space at the time were hailed as modern heroes.

However, times have changed. Griffin's fear that the Chinese could beat NASA in the second race to the moon would indeed be a real nightmare for the United States.

The North American giant space apparatus is planning to send another astronaut to the moon by 2020, as a stepping stone to Mars, but the work on the new Orion spacecraft is going slower than planned because of budgetary problems.

'A Chinese landing on the moon prior to our own return will create a stark perception that the US lags behind not only Russia but also China in space,' Griffin wrote in an internal document that was made public, to the US government's great displeasure.

No country has made as much progress as China in recent years in relation to manned space missions. Its advance has come as the United States has seen its budgets for space exploration shrink.

'We spent many tens of billions of dollars during the Apollo era to purchase a commanding lead in space over all nations on Earth,' Griffin recalled while complaining that NASA's budget has been cut by about 20 per cent since 1992, once inflation is taken into account.

'We've been living off the fruit of that purchase for 40 years and have not ... chosen to invest at a level that would preserve that commanding lead,' Griffin charged.

The US space outlay really started with the 'Sputnik crisis' of October 1957 when the Soviet Union became the first country to launch a satellite into space.

In the Cold War setting, the blow showed that the Russians - so often derided in science and technical matters - were capable of delivering surprises and outdoing the Americans.

US president Dwight Eisenhower reacted promptly by founding a space agency, and NASA started work on October 1, 1958. It initially had 8,000 employees but has seen that number grow to about 18,000 today.

The first leader among NASA engineers was Wernher von Braun, the German engineer who helped German dictator Adolf Hitler develop the V2 rocket that reduced British cities to rubble and ashes in World War II.

Braun transferred the secret missile plans of the Nazis to his new employers at NASA. His cooperation was at first kept secret, and many US citizens were shocked when the German's involvement became known.

The Soviets initially retained their lead in the space race. On April 12, 1961, they launched the first human being into space, Yuri Gagarin. John Glenn followed as the first American in space on February 20, 1962.

It was the young US president John Kennedy who first set 'the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the Earth.'

The Apollo programme was launched. Never before had the United States successfully undertaken such a Herculean scientific and technical task. In the middle of the Cold War, it established the dominance of the United States in space and technical matters, seemingly for good.

And yet, the triumph of the moon landing was the zenith of its effort, and that was 40 years ago.

The Vietnam War, a lack of funds and growing doubts about the expense and purpose of manned space missions put a brake on this drive.

Accidents like the explosion of the Challenger space shuttle in January 1986 and the Columbia catastrophe of February 2003, which caused the deaths of seven astronauts each, also contributed to damping down enthusiasm.

Shuttles more generally turned out to be flops. Initially, the reusable vehicles were supposed to make space missions cheaper. However, the bills did not decrease, and the complicated shuttles instead ate up the bulk of the NASA budget for decades.

Finally, NASA decided to retire the two-decades-old ageing shuttles for good by May 2010 and focus instead on returning to the moon with a view to using the Earth's natural satellite as a jumping off point for further space exploration.

In meantime, the US will lack its own transportation to the International Space Station, built largely with US money and effort, for at least five years and will have to beg a place in the considerably smaller and less comfortable Russian Soyuz spacecraft.

Years ago, such a Russian monopoly in space would have been unthinkable for the United States, and so while it celebrates its birthday, NASA must fight off the sombre mood of being left somehow behind.
The new US space capsule Orion is not set to be operational before at least 2015.

To rekindle enthusiasm around space, President George W Bush talked of the new goals of putting a US astronaut back on the moon by 2020 and on Mars by 2037.

In the meantime, Congress is about to pass several laws that would allow NASA to support Russia's Soyuz space programme in order to keep US access to the space station and to demand that NASA keep shuttles serviceable enough to be resurrected if need be, the Washington Post reported Saturday.

Source:http://www.monstersandcritics.com/science/news/article_1433483.php/PREVIEW_Awful_mood_for_NASA_jubilee_Is_China_headed_for_the_moon_

xav
09-29-2008, 10:01 AM
Well, where is the problem really? Competition is a good thing.

The only consequence I see is that it will get "us" yes us HUMANS back on the moon and on Mars faster.

Anyways, as soon as the Chinese will face a serious problem with human loss (which I hope not of course), their objectives will be pushed back several years.

Again, competition is a good thing. But maybe Cooperation is even better?
I bet ya we will see Chinese flying (on their own) to the ISS in the near future and start common projects (such as Mars probes) with ESA and NASA.

muttbutt
09-29-2008, 10:24 AM
Well, where is the problem really? Competition is a good thing.

The only consequence I see is that it will get "us" yes us HUMANS back on the moon and on Mars faster.

Anyways, as soon as the Chinese will face a serious problem with human loss (which I hope not of course), their objectives will be pushed back several years.

Again, competition is a good thing. But maybe Cooperation is even better?
I bet ya we will see Chinese flying (on their own) to the ISS in the near future and start common projects (such as Mars probes) with ESA and NASA.I think they are not actually allowed onto the ISS, read that somewhere before, that's partly why they want to build their own SS.

BTW even the ESA is on about manned mssion's now, they have started work on manned ship's, big change for the ESA, MM's were not our thing.

seraosha
09-29-2008, 10:29 AM
I'd rather the US be the cutting edge of inter-solar exploration and colonization, but in the long run of Human species survival, the more we spread across the system, the better chances we have.

Hopefully we can reign in our love affair with Mars and get our asses back to the moon.

xav
09-29-2008, 10:38 AM
I think they are not actually allowed onto the ISS, read that somewhere before, that's partly why they want to build their own SS.

BTW even the ESA is on about manned mssion's now, they have started work on manned ship's, big change for the ESA, MM's were not our thing.

LOL really? Do you remember the reasons why?
Are they afraid they would come in too fast at docking and ram into the ISS? Or that their systems are not compatible and short circuits the entire station? :)


Any link on ESA?

muttbutt
09-29-2008, 10:56 AM
LOL really? Do you remember the reasons why?
Are they afraid they would come in too fast at docking and ram into the ISS? Or that their systems are not compatible and short circuits the entire station? :)


Any link on ESA?I think it's more a political reason, there are lab's working up there and I guess they don't want.....prying eye'sp-)


http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/hyperbola/esa/
follow that link, he give's a good run down on the ESA programme's...

dava
09-29-2008, 11:33 AM
But China does not participate in the international space station, due in part to American unease about allowing a communist dictatorship a place aboard.

The ISS could be a nice event to bring countries closer together.
Unless you are american and your pride gets in the way.
ESA fully supports china's participation.

deagle
09-29-2008, 12:19 PM
well, we don't have the money to spare for such endeavors anymore, and b/c times have shifted, the Chinese have, and the Russians i think are still having moon tourism or something.

WarDancer
09-29-2008, 03:12 PM
China to land a human on the Moon? Man, that is so 60's. Been there, done that.

BAF
09-29-2008, 05:08 PM
méh. Chinese, American, whoever gets the job done is fine by me. its going to be nice to see humans walking on the moon, and maybe even mars.

Vympel
09-29-2008, 05:32 PM
China to land a human on the Moon? Man, that is so 60's. Been there, done that.

I think they are going for moonrover.

tea drinker
09-29-2008, 06:24 PM
I already have a transcript of the chinese talking on the moon!

Karaahmetoglu
09-29-2008, 06:50 PM
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc258/RsShogun/motivator9585623.jpg

KoTeMoRe
09-29-2008, 06:57 PM
With what blueprints? Come on...they're still on 1959, no sorry they're in 1961...let's don't get all too worried. They need time and help to accomplish any moon landing. And don't tell me the Russians are willing to help them. That won't happen.

jetsetter
09-29-2008, 07:06 PM
Some seem to forget the many probes and other craft that NASA has deployed throughout the solar system. No simple task and something to be quite proud of.

DS73
09-29-2008, 07:18 PM
The ISS could be a nice event to bring countries closer together.
Unless you are american and your pride gets in the way.
ESA fully supports china's participation.

??? where does it come from?

sansny
09-29-2008, 07:26 PM
ESA as in EUROPEAN SPACE AGENCY

carlzheng
09-29-2008, 07:53 PM
US didn't allow china to join ISS project in the 1990s.so we chinese play our own game successfully.
the hole aim of this crab article is that NASA needs tons of dollars.

drunken sailor
09-29-2008, 08:28 PM
I don't think American astronauts ever landed on the moon. Look at this picture from the moon looking at earth during Apollo 11. When you look at the moon from earth it looks bigger than that and the earth is over ten times its size.

http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-37-5439HR.jpg

http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-36-5404HR.jpg



http://www.astro.umass.edu/~arny/quiz/images/earth_moon.jpg

http://www.astro.umass.edu/~arny/jquiz6.html

Kind of says it all doesn't it?

timetraveller
09-29-2008, 09:50 PM
It is a tremendous achievement for what they have done ...


And i hope they do land on the Moon .. It would kills all the rumours of good ol US OF A That they really did Land on the Moon ...

Or would they say there is no evidence ..

Ethier way i hope they do land on the Moon ....

Ratamacue
09-29-2008, 09:54 PM
I don't think American astronauts ever landed on the moon. Look at this picture from the moon looking at earth during Apollo 11. When you look at the moon from earth it looks bigger than that and the earth is over ten times its size.

http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-37-5439HR.jpg

http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-36-5404HR.jpg



http://www.astro.umass.edu/%7Earny/quiz/images/earth_moon.jpg

http://www.astro.umass.edu/~arny/jquiz6.html (http://www.astro.umass.edu/%7Earny/jquiz6.html)

Kind of says it all doesn't it?You're comparing the size of an object in a reproduced/resized photograph to how you see it with the naked eye? Wow, that's brilliant and irrefutable evidence.

SBL
09-29-2008, 09:56 PM
Or would they say there is no evidence ..



I'll bet they would, too. The Chinese are rather fond of rewriting history.

sailun
09-29-2008, 11:20 PM
if we have weapon on moon :)

Malicious Guardsmen
09-30-2008, 12:07 AM
China rewrites history and birth certificates. Lets not forget about the computer fireworks, hell I bet they fake a moon landing!

Fage
09-30-2008, 03:09 AM
China rewrites history and birth certificates. Lets not forget about the computer fireworks, hell I bet they fake a moon landing!

this kind of sour crap remind me that " We never went to the Moon "
http://www.thespacereview.com/archive/184a.jpg
A flag on the Moon that appears to be flapping when there should be no air is but one piece in a much larger story. (credit: NASA)

BloodyTalon
09-30-2008, 03:36 AM
this kind of sour crap remind me that " We never went to the Moon "
http://www.thespacereview.com/archive/184a.jpg
A flag on the Moon that appears to be flapping when there should be no air is but one piece in a much larger story. (credit: NASA)
oh you gotta be ****ting me...please don't tell me you honestly believe that bull about the landing being a hoax.

Vympel
09-30-2008, 09:37 AM
this kind of sour crap remind me that " We never went to the Moon "
http://www.thespacereview.com/archive/184a.jpg
A flag on the Moon that appears to be flapping when there should be no air is but one piece in a much larger story. (credit: NASA)

Ever heard of moon winds, you silly? :D Btw there was more than one manned mission to moon, they can't be false.

SBL
09-30-2008, 10:21 AM
Oh boy, here we go.:roll:

Buffalo_soldier
09-30-2008, 10:37 AM
The more space exploration the better. I don't care who does it.

There seems to be alot of sour grapes about it, though.

seraosha
09-30-2008, 10:46 AM
Is there an /ignore option on these forums?

I'm serious...the utter fools that claim the moon landings never happened are beyond the pale.

Vympel
09-30-2008, 12:02 PM
Is there an /ignore option on these forums?

I'm serious...the utter fools that claim the moon landings never happened are beyond the pale.

If first landing never happened, others are definitely true. So "WE NEVER BEEN ON MOON" slogan is just BS

especial
09-30-2008, 12:18 PM
I for one, am very upset with the people in the states. Had they kept up their priorities we, humans, quite possibly would have already visited Mars and right now we would know so much. Its a shame that the gringos do not focus more on space than they do on the war dept and debt wealth.

SBL
09-30-2008, 12:20 PM
I for one, am very upset with the people in the states. Had they kept up their priorities we, humans, quite possibly would have already visited Mars and right now we would know so much. Its a shame that the gringos do not focus more on space than they do on the war dept and debt wealth.

Sorry .

Bombtrack
09-30-2008, 12:25 PM
Yeah, f*cking gringos.

Cstafford
09-30-2008, 12:27 PM
damn whiteys.

Zoomie
09-30-2008, 12:28 PM
I for one, am very upset with the people in the states. Had they kept up their priorities we, humans, quite possibly would have already visited Mars and right now we would know so much. Its a shame that the gringos do not focus more on space than they do on the war dept and debt wealth.
You're just jealous that only Americans have been on the moon. p-)

Amethystfretchen
09-30-2008, 12:29 PM
Best NASA/Apollo concpiracy book:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51dd7gimRhL._SS500_.jpg
--> http://www.amazon.co.uk/review/product/1932595260/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful/026-2973169-9405245?_encoding=UTF8&coliid=&showViewpoints=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

DaGreatRV
09-30-2008, 03:27 PM
I have recived your arguments and choose to counter with this:

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOo6aHSY8hU



If anything I hope it brings about a renewed space effort worldwide. Cooperative in some areas, competitive in others.

BloodyTalon
09-30-2008, 03:42 PM
I for one, am very upset with the people in the states. Had they kept up their priorities we, humans, quite possibly would have already visited Mars and right now we would know so much. Its a shame that the gringos do not focus more on space than they do on the war dept and debt wealth.
rofl Yes, damn those mean old white people for not letting your country freeload off of our accomplishments instead of, you know, attempting it yourselves.

Mastermind
09-30-2008, 04:52 PM
What happens when China starts painting the Moon red? Hmmm? What happens to all those Moon deeds that were sold in the 70's?

Personally, I doubt any Chinese will ever set foot on the moon...the world economy will collapse well before that happens. China will be involved much more in the rice grain race to see which chinese get to eat on any given day.

szr
09-30-2008, 05:09 PM
Its a shame that the gringos do not focus more on spaceYou're right, it is. Wherever the hell you're from could use a good orbital bombardment.

vinny_121_ND
09-30-2008, 05:38 PM
China has always planned on going to the moon. This isn't news for the NASA. Space funding has been cut by the government back in April of 2006 resulting in a lot cancelled projects.

DS73
09-30-2008, 05:41 PM
Is there an /ignore option on these forums?

I'm serious...the utter fools that claim the moon landings never happened are beyond the pale.
hmm I still smell sarcasm, nevertheless I remind useful function existing on mp.net.
Go to "Quick Links", choose "Edit Options". On a left side you will find "Edit Ignore list". Sorry it is "vBulletin" powered, so no fancy user friendly tricks.
I made quite a list already :)

Buffalo_soldier
09-30-2008, 05:46 PM
What happens when China starts painting the Moon red? Hmmm? What happens to all those Moon deeds that were sold in the 70's?

Personally, I doubt any Chinese will ever set foot on the moon...the world economy will collapse well before that happens. China will be involved much more in the rice grain race to see which chinese get to eat on any given day.

wishful thinking on your part me thinks.

seraosha
09-30-2008, 05:50 PM
hmm I still smell sarcasm, nevertheless I remind useful function existing on mp.net.
Go to "Quick Links", choose "Edit Options". On a left side you will find "Edit Ignore list". Sorry it is "vBulletin" powered, so no fancy user friendly tricks.
I made quite a list already :)

Excellent, I appreciate it!
Wow is the McCain/Palin thread about to get an infusion of civility with a few choice adds to an ignore list. And I'll never add you to my ignore list, that would be ungrateful to the extreme. woot

domokun
09-30-2008, 05:52 PM
What happens when China starts painting the Moon red? Hmmm? What happens to all those Moon deeds that were sold in the 70's?


The deeds will be collectivized by rightful members proletariat, blood of kulaks will flow with 1/6 falling rate until it will freezes before touching lunar surface. p-)

Before that paint job thing they will build The Great Wall 2.0 keep Mongols out of their lands, hopefully before Mongols arrive on moon too. p-)

I really don't see that Chinese moon project as threat to world peace or anything.

budgie
09-30-2008, 09:33 PM
Anyways, as soon as the Chinese will face a serious problem with human loss (which I hope not of course), their objectives will be pushed back several years.

.


Naah they'll keep throwing warm bodies into cold space till they get it right. They'll have no shortage of volunteers either with the "space-race" fever they've got going at the moment.

chino65
10-02-2008, 02:43 AM
How come Russia didn't go to the moon?

Certainly not for lack of capability... Anyone?

Fiber
10-02-2008, 02:50 AM
nevermind...

domokun
10-02-2008, 07:40 AM
How come Russia didn't go to the moon?

Certainly not for lack of capability... Anyone?

They had project for getting to moon, but it wasn't as high to their priorities as it was to Americans. Soviet moon project was terminated due to problems with their N-1 booster. N-1 was massively underfunded development and end product was spectaculary unreliable, there was no successiful launches. Soviet space project gave more attention to really more useful objects like space stations than massive publicity stunts like moon landing. I don't deny that Apollo project made lot of scietific discoveries, but it was terminated right when moon flights started to became scientifically viable. The headlines were written by Apollo 11 and public interest was declining. US gov didn't need to have any scietifical breakthoughs, they were more interested in publicity stunts.

Mastermind
10-02-2008, 10:01 AM
Russians quit attempts at a manned moon landing because it was bankrupting them. Also, once the Americans did it..what was the point? Even the USA finally realized, once you have a hundred pounds of moon rocks, the expense of getting two hundred pounds more was rather absurd. The act of collecting them in the first place was the primary goal. NASA will realize this also on the outlandish expense of putting people on Mars.

As for China going there..well, it's a great national passtime (a hobby) and it certainly distracts people...such an effort is highly unifying. It's something to be proud of, demonstrating, your nation has the techno savvy and lay-around cash to do something like that.