Serbia's ICJ initiative on October 8th

[V.I.D.]

"120 states back Serbia in trial vote" 29 September 2008 | 13:35 | Source: Beta Dusseldorf -- A German paper says trial voting at the UN revealed that 120 out of 192 UN member states would support Serbia's ICJ initiative.

The economic daily Handelsblatt reminds that a simple majority is enough for the initiative to pass.

The actual voting will take place on Oct. 8. Belgrade will be asking the UN General Assembly to send a resolution on the legality of the Kosovo Albanians' declaration of independence to the International Court of Justice, ICJ.

According to Beta news agency, the newspaper also quotes Foreign Minister Vuk Jermić who appealed to the German government to stop its opposition to the Serbian plan.

"I hope that Germany will vote in favor of our proposal and that it will not betray its principles," he said.

So far, Handelsblatt reminds, ICJ's international legal expertise was sought some twenty times, each time supported by Germany, who said its backing for these initiatives was a policy that wished to strengthen multilateral institutions, such as the ICJ.

However, when it comes to Kosovo, that position could change, the report today says, and adds that Germany, "like most EU members", will abstain from voting.

"The federal chancellor's office even spoke in favor of Germany, just as the U.S. and Great Britain, voting against," the paper adds.

This stance in the West comes out of fear that if the ICJ takes on this issue and if the process lasts for two years, many states will not recognize Kosovo, which would halt all investments there, the report says, and adds that "this subject will be on the agenda as Serbian President Boris Tadić visits Berlin this week".

Hadelsblatt also quotes an unnamed high ranking U.S. diplomat who described the ICJ move as "the Serbs' very unfortunate idea", to add that the situation in Kosovo will stabilize only when Belgrade withdraws support for the "radical Serbs" in the north.

However, the German paper says that the decision to push forward with the initiative could mean that the pro-Western government in Belgrade wishes to pacify nationalists at home.

Another anonymous diplomat, this time representing a European country, is cited as saying that "calling on the court as a neutral instance is an attempt to 'de-Kosovize' the Serbian internal political scene".
_______________________________________________________________


What are your predictions about the outcome of the actual voting on Oct. 8th? And if the decision will be legally binding or how much weight will it have on future decisions regarding the potential Kosovo recognitions (and Serbia's own attitude towards it)?

[V.I.D.]

in regards to the ICJ initiative:
Egypt: Serbia defending rights 29 September 2008 | 09:53 | Source: Večernje novosti BELGRADE -- Egyptian Ambassador to Belgrade Adel Ahmed Naguib says that Egypt will support Serbia’s initiative at the UN General Assembly.

“Everyone knows of the golden age of friendship between Yugoslavia and Egypt in the 1950s. But there are many who might not know that our relations began back in the 1920s,” Naguib told daily Večernje Novosti.

Egypt is a member of the Organization of the Islamic Conference, the Arab League and the Non-Aligned Movement.

“As far as the Kosovo question is concerned, it is of a completely principled nature for us. We deeply respect international law. Our position is, therefore, clear from the beginning: we respect Serbia’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, and we believe that an agreement should be found to satisfy both sides. It has to be win-win outcome, so that no one ends up being the loser,” the Egyptian ambassador said.

Asked whether Egypt’s stance came from the fear that similar scenarios were possible in its own country or region, Naguib said that Egypt did not have those kinds of problems.

“Every country has the right to do what it wants, everyone has their own interests. Kosovo was recognized by 47 countries, but there are 192 countries in the world, which means they are still in the minority,” Naguib underlined.

He said that he did not want to make any predictions as to how countries from the Arab League or OIC would vote.

“Minister [Vuk] Jeremić recently addressed the countries of the Arab League in Cairo, we said how we would act, and now it is up to each country to take its own decision. I am hopeful that the Serbian initiative will pass through the UN General Assembly,” he said.

[V.I.D.]

B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics http://static.b92.net/images/trans.gif UK submits motion on Serbian initiative 7 October 2008 | 16:33 | Source: B92, Beta, Tanjug SKOPJE -- The UK has sent a motion to the UN GA to the effect that, should Serbia’s ICJ resolution be adopted, its question on Kosovo independence should be more precise.

http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/178159552648e746420c8bf167881320_MidCol.jpgThe UN General Assembly

In the event of the adoption of Serbia’s initiative to seek the International Court of Justice’s (ICJ) opinion on the legality of Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence, London wants the UN General Assembly to take into consideration the broader context of Kosovo Albanians' proclamation.

Britain has also asked for the question posed to be formulated more precisely.

In a letter to General Assembly Chairman Miguel d’Escoto, British Permanent Representative to the UN John Sawers said that in this instance Kosovo must be allowed to take part in the proceedings and argue its case.

However, it is added that Britain does not see the benefit of the proposal to seek the ICJ’s opinion, nor does it feel that certain issues that it considers important are being presented in a suitable manner.

The UK does not believe that the opinion of the ICJ on this divisive legal issue is essential, if the consequences of such an approach have no clear purpose or practical benefit for the body that is seeking its opinion.

The UK does nevertheless recognize that the draft motion pertains to a series of important issues in international law and acknowledges the sensitivity of the issue in terms of the Serbian domestic political scene.

Stressing its strong support for the ICJ, the UK says that nothwithstanding its clear position on Kosovo, should the issue be brought before the Court, it will be prepared to participate constructively in the debate on the matter.

Sawers points out that the UK “supported the consensus” for Serbia’s motion to be included on the agenda of the General Assembly session, which, he states, reflects its practice to support the inclusion of issues that merit debate.







Jeremić in New York, UN GA meets Wednesday 7 October 2008 | 13:59 | Source: B92, Tanjug BELGRADE -- Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremić arrived in New York today, where he is heading the Serbian government delegation at the UN General Assembly plenary session.

This UN body is set to vote on Wednesday on Serbia's draft resolution requesting an advisory opinion from the International Court of Justice (ICJ) on the legality of the unilaterally declared independence of Kosovo.

Jeremić will present the draft resolution asking the assembly to send it to the. Yesterday, he voiced his optimism (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=10&dd=06&nav_id=54024) that the outcome will be favorable for Belgrade.

Representatives of 192 UN member states will vote on Serbia's initiative.

In order for Serbia's motion to be adopted, a majority of the UN member states who will take part must vote in favor.




"Many will support Serbian initiative" 6 October 2008 | 11:55 -> 14:01 | Source: B92, Beta PRIŠTINA -- Veton Surroi says "many countries" will support Serbia's ICJ initiative at the UN General Assembly.

The Kosovo Albanian politician and journalist added in a statement for B92 that this could halt the wave of Kosovo's recognitions "for a year or two".

"No one, not even Kosovo, can be against an initiative for a court to consider the legality of establishment of an independent state," he said.

Surroi, who was a member of the Kosovo delegation during the negotiations over the province's status, added that, should Serbia's resolution gain the support at the UN, many countries will wait for the International Court of Justice's decision.

"Many countries that are outside the region and have no direct interests will have a good alibi to say, 'we'll wait and see what the court decides, and then we'll think about recognizing'," heconcluded.

Surroi also stated he does not see as humiliating the fact that many countries that have not recognized Kosovo are now finding themselves under the EU pressure, since the states that want to be a part of the EU "must have the same approach to this problem".

Surroi also addressed the issue of murdered and exiled Kosovo Serbs to say that the authorities in Priština will have to grapple with this problem and the responsibility for it, but he was not optimistic that there is the will to solve these issues.

Belgrade is asking the ICJ to give its opinion on the legality of the Kosovo Albanians' declaration of independence, but the request must be referred to the court by the United Nations General Assembly.

The assembly is meeting in New York on Wednesday to vote on Serbia's resolution.

[Stefan850]

NEW YORK -- With 77 votes in favor and six against, the UN General Assembly on Wednesday accepted Serbia's draft ICJ resolution.

The document requests an advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) about the legality of the unilaterally declared independence of Kosovo.

74 countries abstained, Tanjug news agency reports from New York this afternoon.

The European Union member countries, according to a Beta news agency report, did not have a united stand on the issue, with the UK and France abstaining, while Slovakia, Greece, Cyprus, Spain and Romania voted in favor.


In the discussion that preceded the voting, Serbia was supported by Panama, Cuba, Mexico, Indonesia, Costa Rica, Algeria, Egypt, South Africa.

The United States and Albania voiced their opposition to the adoption of the resolution, while Turkey abstained.

British Ambassador to the UN John Sawers reacted to the result by saying that he was surprised by the outcome.
U.S. representative Rosemary DiCarlo said she would vote against, since Washington considers Kosovo Albanians' declaration to have been in line with international law, and added that her country "firmly believes in Serbia's and Kosovo's European future".

When Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremić addressed the UN General Assembly ahead of the debate and voting, he urged the representatives of the United Nations to support Serbia's ICJ intiative.

Sending the resolution to the court, Jeremić told the assembly, would reduce tensions in the region and in the rest of the world.

"The Republic of Serbia believes that sending this question to the ICJ would prevent the Kosovo crisis from serving as a deeply problematic precedent in any part of the globe where secessionist ambitions are harbored," Jeremić said explaining Serbia's request.

"We also believe that the ICJ advisory opinion would provide politically neutral, yet judicially authoritative guidance, to many countries still deliberating on how to approach UDI in line with international law," Jeremić added.

He stated that Serbia believes "that recourse to the Court would strengthen the rule of law in international relations, and make the proposed course of action a symbol of the world community's resolve to take the UN Charter as its guide".

"Supporting this resolution would also serve to reaffirm a fundamental principle: the right of any member State of the United Nations to pose a simple, basic question-on a matter it considers vitally important-to the international court," Jeremić set out, noting that to vote against would be in effect a vote to deny the right of any country – now or in the future – to seek judicial recourse through the UN system.

Jeremić underscored that "to vote against would also mean accepting that nothing could be done when secessionists in whichever part of the globe assert the uniqueness of their cause, and claim exception to the universal scope of the international legal order".


http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=10&dd=08&nav_id=54059

[V.I.D.]

This is a very good news for Serbia. The brute force can only get you so far in today's world. Serbia should present its case to the world lot more loudly as the justice and legal system is clearly on her side.

[PVJ]

"With 77 votes in favor and six against, the UN General Assembly on Wednesday accepted Serbia's draft ICJ resolution."

Fvcking owned.

[Mr.Flint]

"With 77 votes in favor and six against, the UN General Assembly on Wednesday accepted Serbia's draft ICJ resolution."

Fvcking owned.
Owned? slightly more than a third voted for, and an equal number abstained, and you call that ownage?




Im curious, who voted for, against or abstained? (i mean other that the listed in the article)

[PVJ]

Owned? slightly more that a third voted for, and an equal number abstained, and you call that ownage?




Im curious, who voted for, against or abstained? (i mean other that the listed in the article)

Yes i call that ownage because you seem to forget or not know that
most of the countries who abstained do not recognize Kosovo because they are concerned it is not legal, countries like Brazil and India whose governments set up offices to check on the legality of Kosovos independence and recognizing it. The exception is the 20 or so EU countries that have recognized Kosovo but abstained from the vote.

[Sousuke]

@Mr.Flint - We'l find out soon enough...Well, i just wish the best of luck on this case...atleast the whole "UN "justice" international law" thing isn't complete nonsence.

Svaka chast ovima iz vlade shto su do ovde izgurali, prijatno sam iznenadjen, po prvi put u poslednjih 10 godina.

[Mr.Flint]

Yes i call that ownage because you seem to forget or not know that
most of the countries who abstained do not recognize Kosovo because they are concerned it is not legal, countries like Brazil and India whose governments set up offices to check on the legality of Kosovos independence and recognizing it. The exception is the 20 or so EU countries that have recognized Kosovo but abstained from the vote.
Thats the whole point - those who do not recognize, due to concerns with legality, should have voted for.
That why i dont think you can call it ownage at the moment. not until you get atleast a favorable verdict from the ICJ.

[PVJ]

Thats the whole point - those who do not recognize, due to concerns with legality, should have voted for.
That why i dont think you can call it ownage at the moment. not until you get atleast a favorable verdict from the ICJ.

Well regardless of semantics, the point is the majority are either for or abstained, and its unlikley the ones that are still making up their minds will end up recognizing. It feels weird to be discussing semantics over the word "ownage" so im gonna stop.

[V.I.D.]

How the UN members voted today

Against the adoption of the Serbian resolution, in addition to the United States were Albania and insular state Nauru, Palau, Maršalska Islands and Micronesia.

For the adoption of this resolution, in addition to Serbia, voted Algeria, Angola, Antigua and Barbados, Argentina, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bolivia, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei, Montenegro, Chile, Democratic Republic of Congo, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Egypt, Eritrea, Fiji, Philippines, Greece, Guatemala, Guinea, Guyana, Honduras, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Jamaica, South Africa, Cambodia, Kazakhstan, Kenya, China, Kyrgyzstan, Costa Rica, Cuba, Cyprus, Lesotho, Liechtenstein , Madagascar, Mauritius, Mexico, Myanmar, Namibia, Nicaragua, Niger, Nigeria, Norway, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Republic of Congo, Romania, Russia, Salvador, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, North Korea, Singapore, Slovakia, Solomon Islands , Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Syria, Spain, Sri Lanka, Timor, Tanzania, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, Zambia and Zimbabwe.

Abstained during the balloting were Afghanistan, Andorra, Austria, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bhutan, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Finland, Ghana, Grenada, Haiti, Croatia , Holland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Yemen, Armenia, Jordan, South Korea, Cameroon, Canada, Qatar, Colombia, Latvia, Lebanon, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Hungary, Macedonia, Malaysia, Malta, Monaco, Mongolia, Morocco, Nepal, Germany, New Zealand, Oman, Pakistan, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Moldova, St. Lucia, Samoa, San Marino, Sierra Leone, Slovenia, Sweden, Switzerland, Thailand, Togo, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom and Vanuatu.

Voting not attended by Bosnia and Herzegovina, Burundi, Central Republic, Chad, Ivory Coast, Ecuador, Ethiopia, Gabon, Gambia, Guinea Bissau, Iraq, Hats Verde, Kiribati, Komoros, Kuwait, Laos, Libya, Malawi, Maldives, Mali, Mauritania , Mozambique, Rwanda, St. Kitts and Nevis, Sao Tome and Principe, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Seychelles, Somalia, Tajikistan, Tonga, Tunisia, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu and Venezuela.

Liberia did not vote when it was time to vote, but later said that it was against.

[V.I.D.]

B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics http://static.b92.net/images/trans.gifUN vote hailed in Belgrade as "victory"8 October 2008 | 21:21 | Source: B92, Tanjug BELGRADE, NEW YORK, BRUSSELS -- Prime Minister Mirko Cvetković Wednesday evening welcomed the adoption of the Serbian resolution by the United Nations General Assembly (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=10&dd=08&nav_id=54059).

http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/129223712848ed09d35c311254471864_MidCol.jpgJeremić reacts to the results of the vote (FoNet)

The UN today decided to accept Belgrade's motion to ask the International Court of Justice (ICJ) opinion on the legality of the Kosovo Albanians' unilateral declaration of independence.

Cvetković said that the outcome of the vote comes as another proof that Serbia's diplomatic initiative is a success.

"In this way, Serbia, as a small country, was placed in the very focus of the world diplomatic events," the premier said.

He also expressed his expectations that "political tensions will die down" in the wake of the UN decision, and that "issues will in the future be solved in a much calmer atmosphere".

"At the same time, this means that if any state decided to recognize Kosovo and Metohija's independence after this decision, it can be interpreted as their disregard of the role that the ICJ has in this particular case," Cvetković said.

In New York, Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremić, who represented Serbia at the UN General Assembly session today, said hat this is "a big day for international law".

"We are grateful that we have been allowed to send a request for the advisory opinion to the International Court of Justice," Jeremić said.

He thanked the countries that had shown their solidarity with this action, "which is in the very essence of the international order and UN Charter", and voiced hope that cooperation on the issue of Kosovo's future status would continue.

In Belgrade, Parliament Speaker Slavica Đukić-Dejanović also welcomed the adoption of the Serbian initiative.

"This is a positive step taken by our diplomacy in the efforts of the state to preserve its territorial integrity," the Đukić-Dejanović, of the ruling SPS, was quoted as saying by Tanjug.

"After this, we can give a positive evaluation of the foreign-policy activities of the state. Further actions are yet to come to secure the respect of international law in the territory of the Balkans," Đukić-Dejanović added.

Addressing parliament briefly, she announced that the resolution was accepted, which the MPs, in session on Wednesday evening, greeted with applause.

Her party leader and Deputy Premier and Interior Minister Ivica Dačić reacted by saying that the outcome of the UN voting represents a major diplomatic victory of Serbia and international law "after quite some time".

"It was demonstrated that the majority of world countries are determined in favor of respect of international law, and this will shift the question of Kosovo and Metohija from the political to the legal area," Dačić said in Belgrade.

Based on the fundamental principles of international law, Serbia can hope to look forward to a positive stand of the International Court of Justice in The Hague," he continued.

"This will definitely slow down the process of the recognition of the independence of Kosovo and Metohija. It has been demonstrated yet again that a good political assessment and good diplomacy are in any case major weapons," Dačić said.

In Kosovo, some Serb leaders told Tanjug they were satisfied because of the success of the Serbian ICJ initiative at the United Nations.

Dragiša Đoković, an MP on the ruling Democratic Party (DS) ticket, voiced his satisfaction.

"I am certain that Serbia has chosen the right way when it decided to solve the issue of Kosovo-Metohija with peaceful and democratic means in a diplomatic way," Đoković said.

"I hope that we will finally defend Kosovo-Metohija within Serbia and Serbia within her existing borders," he added said.

Vice President of the Serb People's Council of central Kosovo Radmila Trajković told Tanjug that the United Nations are the only democratic global institution, where even the countries such as the United States could not affect the stands of the countries which had voted for the Serbian resolution.

"We should now prepare for the judicial procedure and engagement of legal experts as well as historians of the new generation. I expect that authorities in Belgrade will demonstrate their democratic capacity every day in order to present ourselves to the world as a responsible country prepared to accept Kosovo Albanians as equal citizens," Trajković said.

Another Kosovo Serb, Goran Bogdanović, DS, said tonight that the adoption of the resolution in New York earlier in the day confirmed that most countries in the world urge respect of international law.

They also take into account Serbia's stand that the unilaterally declared independence of Kosovo should be re-examined and that negotiations on Kosovo's status should be renewed, the minister for Kosovo said.

"This confirms that Serbia's peaceful, diplomatic and political struggle for the preservation of sovereignty and territorial integrity is right," Bogdanović said.

"We are satisfied that despite huge pressure, present all the time, and especially prominent in the past few days, Serbia has proved that law and justice are on its side," he said.

"Serbia will continue to urge a peaceful solution for the return to the negotiating table in order to solve this highly sensitive issue to the benefit of all sides."

"It is in Serbia's interest that the International Court of Justice decision be positive and that we finally return to the negotiating table," Bogdanović concluded.

The DS-led coalition caucus whip Nada Kolundžija reacted by saying that the decision represented a victory of the Serbian diplomacy.

The adoption of the resolution by the United Nations proves that the majority of countries in the world believe that international order and law should prevail, Kolundžija said in a statement for Tanjug.

"I believe that the International Court of Justice will adopt an opinion in keeping with international law, which will reaffirm Serbia's stand that the unilateral declaration of Kosovo's independence was not in line with international law and that the way for continuing the search for a compromise would thus be paved," she said.

No comment

Meanwhile in Brussels, the European Commission (EC) representatives once again repeated that the recognition of Kosovo's declaration of independence is up to the EU's individual members.

"The European Commission will therefore not comment on Wednesday's adoption of the Serbian draft resolution in the United Nations General Assembly," European Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn's spokesperson Krisztina Nagy said in a statement for Tanjug.

"Recognition of independence is within the authority of the EU member-states," she said.

"The Commission has no comment, that is and will remain its stand," Nagy said.

EU member-states voted on an individual and national basis at the UN General Assembly session today, the news agency says.

Also in Brussels, the French Presidency of the European Union said it had no comment on the adoption of Serbia's draft resolution by the UN General Assembly.

This was confirmed for Tanjug by the presidency spokesperson Marine de Carne.

"Serbia had the right to request the opinion and we believe that it is important to look into the future and work on not jeopardizing further European integrations," de Carne said.

Useless, inappropriate

But, the French Foreign Ministry announced on Wednesday evening that Serbia's request to seek the opinion of the International Court of Justice is "neither useful nor appropriate".

French Ambassador to the UN Jean-Maurice Ripert said, after the vote at the UN General Assembly, that Serbia's request is not useful because France does not see the situation concerning Kosovo's independence as legally moot.

It is not appropriate, he continued, because it is "not encouraging to the necessary easing of tensions and contains the inherent risk of complicating the European prospects of the western Balkans".

Ripert reiterated the argument of the countries that have recognized Kosovo, including France – which abstained during today's vote – that Kosovo is s "sui generis" case.

[Andrew Chalmers]

I would urge those who view this as a victory.... be careful what you wish for.

While under customary international law, state sovereignty will usually protect against secessionist movements from being recognized as de jure state entities... state recognition is one of those areas were political reality will affect the outcome of a legality analysis. The ICJ as an institution also recognizes its lack of enforcement powers and will be extremely politically sensitive in its decision.

One cop out that will allow the ICJ to deny an outcome determinative decision could be by invoking the "domestic jurisdiction exception." Which crudely stated... basically says the ICJ has no jurisdiction to accept disputes within a jurisdiction of a state as determined by that state."

Serbia is essentially arguing that Kosovo is not a state - but at the same time claiming that that the ICJ has jursidiction over this "internal dispute." Tough argument to make. Serbia also can't succeed against states that has recognized Kosovo - because customary international law also recognizes that states have their own foreign policy powers and may recognize states as they please.

If Kosovo is not a de jure state - then the ICJ has no jurisdiction.

The unavoidable question then falls on... what is a de jure state? The factors are basically whether the entity has a permanent population, defined territory, established government, capacity for foreign relations, and some measure of acceptance by the international community.

Going through this analysis - it is tough to argue that Kosovo does not meet the five criteria.

If Kosovo meets the five criteria - then Kosovo is a state. If Kosovo is not a state - then the ICJ doesn't need to resolve the dispute as it is an internal dispute within Serbia.

Either way - Serbia doesn't really win.

Then again... it could all just be a game for Serbian politicians to convince their people to let it go. "The court has spoken... we're a country that abides by international law and norms... therefore we will swallow the decision bitterly."

[PVJ]

Andrew you probably arnt that familiar with Serbian politics but, recognizing Kosovo, implying that you might recognize Kosovo, or in any way suggesting Kosovo is independent is political suicide. The current DSS coalition would lose out to the DS and SRS.
In July 2007, Japans defense minister had to resign almost immediately after he said "the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were inevitable", its like that now with Kosovo.

[Hyde]

Thats the whole point - those who do not recognize, due to concerns with legality, should have voted for.
That why i dont think you can call it ownage at the moment. not until you get atleast a favorable verdict from the ICJ.

That way i could say, those who recognize it, should have voted against it, because it is questioning their decision. But with only 6 votes against it turns out they are not so sure about the recognition decision themselves.

[sup_tech]

This will be interesting...

[Arian]

Aww shucks!! I guess you guys win in the end.

PS: Montenegro recognizes Kosovo's independence today :) Have a good victory party.

[Arian]

That way i could say, those who recognize it, should have voted against it, because it is questioning their decision. But with only 6 votes against it turns out they are not so sure about the recognition decision themselves.

Most obstained simply becase, well, who gives a crap what Serbia says.

[Hyde]

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, kid...

[V.I.D.]

Aww shucks!! I guess you guys win in the end.

PS: Montenegro recognizes Kosovo's independence today :) Have a good victory party.

Misery loves company. This is the biggest disgrace Montenegrin people have ever experienced. However, if there's only one percent left of what made Montenegrins unique in the past then don't expect that this will last longer than a year or two. Mark my words.

[Arian]

Excellent responses, the both of you.

[Stefan850]

Most obstained simply becase, well, who gives a crap what Serbia says.



Excellent responses, the both of you.

You expect to get a meaningful response?

Don't insult people on internet forums and try to get in to discussions instead. Maybe you learn something, maybe we learn something from you, this way you are just rude for no reason, and you are giving your nationality a bad name by insulting others like this, especially behind your computer.

[Sousuke]

Excellent responses, the both of you.
Why dont you shut your flaming little mouth? Every time i read ANY Serbian/exYu releated treads, you are flaming and spaming. If you don't like something, fine, its your porblem, you have the right to say it, but please be more carefull of your words. :bash:

[Arian]

Flaming? Nah I'm just playing with you.

You said you won didn't you? Well congratulations!

Why is it that everytime someone says something blatently obvious to you that you don't like, you consider it "flaming"? I'm just telling you the obvious truth, not only did you win jack, not only will it not matter, it certainly hasn't even stopped recognition from your best friend.

What is certainly more amusing, is Serbia, after having relied on brute force in half a dozen times in the past 2 decades, now sees it fit to reply on "international law". Now thats amusing!

[Hyde]

Excellent responses, the both of you.

You don't get it, do you? :roll:

[Stefan850]

Flaming? Nah I'm just playing with you.


That's almost the same thing. Equally inappropriate. Imagine someone "playing with you" about things you are very emotionally attached?



What is certainly more amusing, is Serbia, after having relied on brute force in half a dozen times in the past 2 decades, now sees it fit to reply on "international law". Now thats amusing!


Ok, you have a problem with Serbia doing something a "dozen" times in the past two decades, Serbia, from your point of view doesn't do it for the first time and now you have a problem with it or find it laughable?

[Arian]

Imagine someone "playing with you" about things you are very emotionally attached?


In this forum? Don't be silly, that never happens here.

Being emotionally attached hardly gives one the right to post endlessly 145 threads on the same issue with the same mumbo-jumbo repeated over and over, nor does it take away my right to tell it to you like it is.

It hurts your feelings? Well my sincere apolagise for that. I didn't see me insulting anybody here. The same might not be said for others.


Ok, you have a problem with Serbia doing something a "dozen" times in the past two decades, Serbia, from your point of view doesn't do it for the first time and now you have a problem with it or find it laughable?

I didn't quite understand your train of though there.


You don't get it, do you?

Oh no I get it.


You expect to get a meaningful response?


In this thread? Certainly not. One liners are quite sadisfactory. I already told you not to be silly.

[Arian]

Macedonia is voting on recognition right now I think. We'll see how this party keeps going. Yesterday Portugal recognised.

See I told you I get it MareCar!

[Stefan850]

In this forum? Don't be silly, that never happens here.

Being emotionally attached hardly gives one the right to post endlessly 145 threads on the same issue with the same mumbo-jumbo repeated over and over, nor does it take away my right to tell it to you like it is.

It hurts your feelings? Well my sincere apolagise for that. I didn't see me insulting anybody here. The same might not be said for others.



I didn't quite understand your train of though there.


You didn't "tell it to me like it is". You said it yourself, let me quote you


I'm just playing with you.And you could only try to "tell it to me like you think it is" and I could accept that or not, nothing more.

And you didn't hurt me, you are some guy from who knows where saying things I don't agree with, I don't have a problem with that, but I see you had a problem with some Serbians saying "we won" so you had to respond on your little keyboard and try to hurt Serbians like they hurt you with "we won" so you wouldn't feel bad anymore.

I'm off.

[Arian]

Oh no they didn't hurt me at all. Don't worry about me.

[The Balkan]

Misery loves company. This is the biggest disgrace Montenegrin people have ever experienced. However, if there's only one percent left of what made Montenegrins unique in the past then don't expect that this will last longer than a year or two. Mark my words.

What's that? Albanian blood? p-)

[Arian]

However, if there's only one percent left of what made Montenegrins unique


What's that? Albanian blood?

Oh Balkans you silly man! What made Montenegro unique was that it was the only other entity that supported Serbia throughout its various conflicts in the 20 years. He's saying if there's any of that left...

Oh wait now I get what your saying p-)

[Nobi]

It is a shame that our government recognized kosovo, over 66% here do not support what our government do. Is this really OUR government? :roll:

[Hyde]

Oh no I get it.

Regarding your last post, why the heck ever directed at me, you obviously still do not. You'll go up in flames, and i already see you back here with a new nickname within a few days...:roll:



And you didn't hurt me, you are some guy from who knows where saying things I don't agree with, I don't have a problem with that, but I see you had a problem with some Serbians saying "we won" so you had to respond on your little keyboard and try to hurt Serbians like they hurt you with "we won" so you wouldn't feel bad anymore.

I'm off.

Thumbs up!
Brilliant explanation, even he is getting it now. p-)

[Arian]

No I do get your point. I already told you. Now do you have some other point to make?

[Hyde]

IF you had got it, you would have shut it. Because the message was: Nobody is interested in an argument, your "opinion" or any other kind of talk with you. Now have a good day.

[Arian]

Well thats your opinion. :) But look if I care.

[KET]

Congratulations to Serbia for winning whatever they won. What happens now?

[V.I.D.]

You know what will happen? Another war when the time is right. I think we all know that.

The Balkan and Arian, the amount of your Serbophobia and pointless posts are truly tiring. Find something to do people, your eyesight will get bad.

[KET]

You know what will happen? Another war when the time is right. I think we all know that.

You really think so? If all Serbs in Serbia think like you (and I highly doubt that) then there's a fundamental difference between Serbs and Albanians regarding this matter. If there will ever be a war in Kosovo I highly doubt Serbs would be willing to fight, while on the other hand most (if not all) Albanians would fight a Serbian aggression from the second it starts, because they know what happened in 1999. By the time the "time is right" for you to attack NATO and American(most importantly) troops would have to be "gone" which won't happen in the next 50-100 years. By that time Serbia and Serbs themselves will be so detached from Kosovo and the whole idea that Kosovo is their land that nobody will be willing to even think about going to war over Kosovo. There won't really be a reason for Serbs start a war with Kosovo to begin with. The Serbs in Kosovo have more rights and privileges than Albanians themselves. I don't think Serbia would invade Kosovo unless it wants to kill/expell all its non-Serbian population there. Either way I don't see it happening even if there will be a WW3. It would be very bad for both sides.

[Arian]

You know what will happen? Another war when the time is right.

:roll: Did you really learn NOTHING in the past 18 years? How sad. Another war, it ain't really gona hurt us. You'r only hurting yourselves more and more. If I really was a Serbophobe, I wouldn't be giving you this friendly advice.

[Pejon09]

You know what will happen? Another war when the time is right. I think we all know that.


War? With what money, what army? Go back to school

[Sousuke]

Thanks for ruining the tread guys, real resoursfull.

[V.I.D.]

You really think so? If all Serbs in Serbia think like you (and I highly doubt that) then there's a fundamental difference between Serbs and Albanians regarding this matter. If there will ever be a war in Kosovo I highly doubt Serbs would be willing to fight, while on the other hand most (if not all) Albanians would fight a Serbian aggression from the second it starts, because they know what happened in 1999. By the time the "time is right" for you to attack NATO and American(most importantly) troops would have to be "gone" which won't happen in the next 50-100 years. By that time Serbia and Serbs themselves will be so detached from Kosovo and the whole idea that Kosovo is their land that nobody will be willing to even think about going to war over Kosovo. There won't really be a reason for Serbs start a war with Kosovo to begin with. The Serbs in Kosovo have more rights and privileges than Albanians themselves. I don't think Serbia would invade Kosovo unless it wants to kill/expell all its non-Serbian population there. Either way I don't see it happening even if there will be a WW3. It would be very bad for both sides.

Our points of view on the problem differ. Mine is backed up by the international legal system, hence it's not the aggression when you re-claim your own land. Just ask the Croats.
As for the war(s), I do believe that WW3 is bound to happen relatively soon (in the next ten years), everything points out to it (major economical crisis looming, shift in the balance of power, rise of China/Russia, etc.). Kosovo war will just be one minor aspect of it. And you obviosuly don't know Serbs when you doubt importance of Kosovo and honor to them. As for the childish question about what army as asked by Pejon, don't forget that Serbs fight the best when they have nothing to lose (Rebellions/wars against Turks in 19th century, WWI). We're dangerously close to that point now, being backed in the corner and surrounded by enemies/unfriendly countries.

Back on topic, Montengero and FYRM had effectively ruined the positive atmosphere after UN's GA decision to proceed with Serbia's initiative, but this has nothing to do with the legality of the problem, it will only be remembered one day as the lowest point in these nations' histories & their relationships with Serbia. I do expect ICJ to confirm illegality of Kosovo's proclamation of independence at the end of the day.

[Hyde]

You do realize that this will take a year at least, and not just one day?

[V.I.D.]

Marecar, if you were responding to my post, I think it will take several years (especially considering the political situation nowadays). "At the end of the day" is just an idiom in the English language, I didn't imply that the decision will be brought in one day.

[The Balkan]

You know what will happen? Another war when the time is right. I think we all know that.

The Balkan and Arian, the amount of your Serbophobia and pointless posts are truly tiring. Find something to do people, your eyesight will get bad.

Serbophobia cuz I support Kosovo? Or cuz I jokingly said alot of Montenegrins have some Albanian blood? Which they do. Why would I even get an infraction for saying that?

[Pejon09]

As for the childish question about what army as asked by Pejon, don't forget that Serbs fight the best when they have nothing to lose (Rebellions/wars against Turks in 19th century, WWI). We're dangerously close to that point now, being backed in the corner and surrounded by enemies/unfriendly countries.

When have Serbs won a war? Not that we Albanians have, but when have you? I tell you = 0. So stick to boosting your economy and stop daydreaming with your artificial WW3

[V.I.D.]

When have Serbs won a war? Not that we Albanians have, but when have you? I tell you = 0. So stick to boosting your economy and stop daydreaming with your artificial WW3

King Bodin's wars, Stephan Dusan's wars against Byzantium & Bulgaria, First and Second Serbian Uprising against Ottomans, Balkan War I and II, WWI, WWII and many others.
The Balkan, I did not ask for your infraction, but it would be nice of both of you to get back on topic. Thank you.

[Pejon09]

King Bodin's wars, Stephan Dusan's wars against Byzantium & Bulgaria, First and Second Serbian Uprising against Ottomans, Balkan War I and II, WWI, WWII and many others.
The Balkan, I did not ask for your infraction, but it would be nice of both of you to get back on topic. Thank you.

Serbia alone? Well maybe you had some luck back in middle age, however it didnt worked in 90s.

Either way, lets stick to the topic.

[The Balkan]

King Bodin's wars, Stephan Dusan's wars against Byzantium & Bulgaria, First and Second Serbian Uprising against Ottomans, Balkan War I and II, WWI, WWII and many others.
.

I hope you're not serious. But ok back on topic.

This initiative will probly lead nowhere.

[Mate]

King Bodin's wars, Stephan Dusan's wars against Byzantium & Bulgaria, First and Second Serbian Uprising against Ottomans, Balkan War I and II, WWI, WWII and many others.
The Balkan, I did not ask for your infraction, but it would be nice of both of you to get back on topic. Thank you.
With a little help from neighbours yes.....but the 90` wars you didn`t manage it alone.

Back on topic.....
This iniciative is just an excuse of serbian govt. to the people of serbia,the govt.has to explain to the people how they lost Kosovo,by asking ICJ.

[V.I.D.]

See, legally speaking, Serbia does not need excuse, it is Kosovo Albanians that need excuse for the illegal act. Thus, Serbia just wants to announce its position to the world by putting this problem where it belongs:ratification and clarification by international legal experts. It will also come handy when the moment for reclaiming back its territory comes along. Like I wrote earlier, one just needs to check Croats and Operation Storm. If that was legal means of reintegration of Croatian territory, so will be Serbia's eventual return to Kosovo (also acknowledged in UN Resolution 1244). Let's just wait and see. I am not an optimist when it comes to the peaceful solution in Balkans.

[KET]

I don't really see a problem in Serbia going asking the ICJ opinion on this matter. They are allowed to do it and they're taking advantage of it. That said the Serbian foreign ministry seems to be doing all that it can to slow down the process of Kosovo's recognition. If that's their goal than that's fine. However, I have a feeling that IF ICJ comes out to a conclusion on Kosovo which is not in favor of the Serbs everyone will go like "OMG the evil conspiracy of the west against Serbia. Double standards" etc. The problem is that Serbs seem to like international law whenever they feel like it. Either way even if Serbs win the case it won't really change anything on the ground so I think they're just waisting time and money instead of moving on.

[Vorian]

The problem is that Serbs seem to like international law whenever they feel like it.

This applies to others as well.

[Hyde]

90s wars? You have to be kidding me, based on your statements (I mean all of you) you have no idea about the 90s wars. please, stop the flaming. :roll:


Marecar, if you were responding to my post, I think it will take several years (especially considering the political situation nowadays). "At the end of the day" is just an idiom in the English language, I didn't imply that the decision will be brought in one day.

Oh, sorry I missed that one.:)

[SrB-23Q]

With a little help from neighbours yes.....but the 90` wars you didn`t manage it alone.

Back on topic.....
This iniciative is just an excuse of serbian govt. to the people of serbia,the govt.has to explain to the people how they lost Kosovo,by asking ICJ.

because the neighbours wernt alone...dose NATO ring a bell?? (not really neighbour just Albaninas wanting a Serbian Province)

and the wars in Croatia and Bosnia wernt fought by Serbia directly.

[Lokos]

Serbia alone? Well maybe you had some luck back in middle age, however it didnt worked in 90s.

The only war Serbia fought in the 1990s was the Kosovo War. Serbian enclaves in Bosnia and Croatia were combatants in the Bosnian/Croatian wars... Why are people under this nebulous belief that Serbia fought and lost wars during this time? It didn't. That's like saying Albania lost the 2001 ethnic conflict in Macedonia. Rubbish. We gave the Bosnian Serbs clandestine support, armaments and some volunteers. But the 300,000 strong (when fully mobilized) Vojska Jugoslavije was uncommitted, surely you realize.


When have Serbs won a war? Not that we Albanians have, but when have you? I tell you = 0

When discussing Serb military history, there are several factors you must be aware of that you are either willfully ignoring in the 'analysis' above, or simply haven't considered. One being that Serbian states (under various feudal rulers) have won plenty of wars with Bulgarians, Byzantines and other regional powers during the period of 1000-1350. Another being that, post 1350, the one war Serbia participated in as a state until 1878 was against the Ottoman Empire - a state that was considerably more wealthy, populous and militarily superior. Well known battles against the Ottomans include one clear defeat: the Maritsa in 1371, when the army of the Serbian state was caught by surprise and annihilated.

However, in the aftermath of the Maritsa, the Serbs defeated the Ottomans on at least four separate occasions; 1381, 1383, 1386 and 1388 (Stephaniana, Dubravnica, Plocnik, Bileca)) - before finally fighting the somewhat decisive Battle of Kosovo Polje, where a Serbian/Bosnian/Albanian force of roughly 25,000 (15,000 of Knez Lazar's vassals, 5,000 troops loyal to other Serbian nobles and 5,000 or so allies) fought a much larger (believed to be 45,000 strong) Ottoman force to a standstill. It was not, in fact, the mythical defeat of Serbian lore - but a tactical draw which saw both sides retreat after the fact. Unfortunately, the Ottomans could make good their losses far more easily and had already, in fact, begun subverting the Serbian nobility (there were Serb nobles fighting on the Ottoman side at Kosovo Polje).

By 1396, Serb cavalry under Stefan Lazarevic (~5,000 in number) played the decisive role in defeating the Crusade of Nicopolis on the Ottoman side at the Battle of Nicopolis - one of the largest engagements of the Middle Ages, charging into the flank of the crusader forces and routing them. From the early 15th century until the mid 19th, Serbian soldiery fought under various flags. Austrian, Hungarian, Ottoman etc. The First and Second Uprisings in the early 19th century were as militarily successful as they had any right to be, given the disparity in opposing forces.

The point of all this is simple: the Serbian people has a thousand year old tradition of military service and victory - as well as defeat, to be certain. Perhaps you may disagree with a certain other poster about the likelihood of war over the status of Kosovo in the future. But that neither gives you the right, nor should it give you the inclination to go so low as to question that tradition on such a premise.

Relax. Don't get so excited about these things. And stay objective and formal.

That last bit of advice should apply equally across the board...

L.

[Mate]

90s wars? You have to be kidding me, based on your statements (I mean all of you) you have no idea about the 90s wars. please, stop the flaming. :roll:
No sh!t.....rofl

[INAT]

The only war Serbia fought in the 1990s was the Kosovo War. Serbian enclaves in Bosnia and Croatia were combatants in the Bosnian/Croatian wars... Why are people under this nebulous belief that Serbia fought and lost wars during this time? It didn't. That's like saying Albania lost the 2001 ethnic conflict in Macedonia. Rubbish. We gave the Bosnian Serbs clandestine support, armaments and some volunteers. But the 300,000 strong (when fully mobilized) Vojska Jugoslavije was uncommitted, surely you realize.



When discussing Serb military history, there are several factors you must be aware of that you are either willfully ignoring in the 'analysis' above, or simply haven't considered. One being that Serbian states (under various feudal rulers) have won plenty of wars with Bulgarians, Byzantines and other regional powers during the period of 1000-1350. Another being that, post 1350, the one war Serbia participated in as a state until 1878 was against the Ottoman Empire - a state that was considerably more wealthy, populous and militarily superior. Well known battles against the Ottomans include one clear defeat: the Maritsa in 1371, when the army of the Serbian state was caught by surprise and annihilated.

However, in the aftermath of the Maritsa, the Serbs defeated the Ottomans on at least four separate occasions; 1381, 1383, 1386 and 1388 (Stephaniana, Dubravnica, Plocnik, Bileca)) - before finally fighting the somewhat decisive Battle of Kosovo Polje, where a Serbian/Bosnian/Albanian force of roughly 25,000 (15,000 of Knez Lazar's vassals, 5,000 troops loyal to other Serbian nobles and 5,000 or so allies) fought a much larger (believed to be 45,000 strong) Ottoman force to a standstill. It was not, in fact, the mythical defeat of Serbian lore - but a tactical draw which saw both sides retreat after the fact. Unfortunately, the Ottomans could make good their losses far more easily and had already, in fact, begun subverting the Serbian nobility (there were Serb nobles fighting on the Ottoman side at Kosovo Polje).

By 1396, Serb cavalry under Stefan Lazarevic (~5,000 in number) played the decisive role in defeating the Crusade of Nicopolis on the Ottoman side at the Battle of Nicopolis - one of the largest engagements of the Middle Ages, charging into the flank of the crusader forces and routing them. From the early 15th century until the mid 19th, Serbian soldiery fought under various flags. Austrian, Hungarian, Ottoman etc. The First and Second Uprisings in the early 19th century were as militarily successful as they had any right to be, given the disparity in opposing forces.

The point of all this is simple: the Serbian people has a thousand year old tradition of military service and victory - as well as defeat, to be certain. Perhaps you may disagree with a certain other poster about the likelihood of war over the status of Kosovo in the future. But that neither gives you the right, nor should it give you the inclination to go so low as to question that tradition on such a premise.

Relax. Don't get so excited about these things. And stay objective and formal.

That last bit of advice should apply equally across the board...

L.



And that kids is why they call him------------The Professor!

Excellent post Lokos I was getting tired of reading the constant bickering.

When I look at old Balkans flame threads I participated in I feel foolish.


I am glad the UN backed Serbia's decision. Yes it will not change much but it is still a step in the right direction. As far as Montenegro's decision goes it was their choice to do so.May they one day live in peace and harmony in a greater Albanian utopia. I understand this was a decision based on US/EU pressure. I also understand they were just trying to be an obedient vassal.

[21stArmada]

Voting on this memorandum is a very difficult decission for any Nation. I believe that's the reason why so many nations did not take part (got stuck in traffic). On one side if you vote against it you are saying that not everyone has the right to be heard in a court of law (and realisticly everyone's case should be heard even if they might be at fault). On the other side every nation (probably including Serbia) knows that there is no way Albanians can go back to living under the Serbian rule. So what is one to do? Do they publicly come out and say that not everyone has the same rights or do they upset the fragile peace in the region? That's why so many countries abstained (or rather just ignored) from voting. Serbia believes this was a victory, but if it was one was a Phyrric (spelling?) one at that. 1) Since the 74 that abstained and 20+ that were absent could not morally vote against are added to the 6 that voted against you have a total larger that the number of countries that voted For it. Let's not forget a good part of the countries that abstained or did not take part have already recognized independence. 2) It gave Kosovo's government an easy and free assesment of the situation of which countries are candidates to recognize it and could pressure those nations that chose to abstain/were not present to recognize it in the near future. 3) This was not a decission by ICJ, it simply was a memorandum allowing Serbia to take it to court, ICJ could vote either way and if does indeed vote against Serbia that would be game over for them. Even the separation of Kosovo (which appears to be the main reason for all their work) would prove to be impossible.

I have one last question on this topic. Where does this decission leave Russia? Are the Russians not shooting themselves in the foot as they now have opened the door for Georgia to take the 2 break-away republics, recognized by Moscow, to the ICJ?

Pardon any spelling mistakes :)

[The Balkan]

The only war Serbia fought in the 1990s was the Kosovo War. Serbian enclaves in Bosnia and Croatia were combatants in the Bosnian/Croatian wars... Why are people under this nebulous belief that Serbia fought and lost wars during this time? It didn't. That's like saying Albania lost the 2001 ethnic conflict in Macedonia. Rubbish. We gave the Bosnian Serbs clandestine support, armaments and some volunteers. But the 300,000 strong (when fully mobilized) Vojska Jugoslavije was uncommitted, surely you realize.



When discussing Serb military history, there are several factors you must be aware of that you are either willfully ignoring in the 'analysis' above, or simply haven't considered. One being that Serbian states (under various feudal rulers) have won plenty of wars with Bulgarians, Byzantines and other regional powers during the period of 1000-1350. Another being that, post 1350, the one war Serbia participated in as a state until 1878 was against the Ottoman Empire - a state that was considerably more wealthy, populous and militarily superior. Well known battles against the Ottomans include one clear defeat: the Maritsa in 1371, when the army of the Serbian state was caught by surprise and annihilated.

However, in the aftermath of the Maritsa, the Serbs defeated the Ottomans on at least four separate occasions; 1381, 1383, 1386 and 1388 (Stephaniana, Dubravnica, Plocnik, Bileca)) - before finally fighting the somewhat decisive Battle of Kosovo Polje, where a Serbian/Bosnian/Albanian force of roughly 25,000 (15,000 of Knez Lazar's vassals, 5,000 troops loyal to other Serbian nobles and 5,000 or so allies) fought a much larger (believed to be 45,000 strong) Ottoman force to a standstill. It was not, in fact, the mythical defeat of Serbian lore - but a tactical draw which saw both sides retreat after the fact. Unfortunately, the Ottomans could make good their losses far more easily and had already, in fact, begun subverting the Serbian nobility (there were Serb nobles fighting on the Ottoman side at Kosovo Polje).

By 1396, Serb cavalry under Stefan Lazarevic (~5,000 in number) played the decisive role in defeating the Crusade of Nicopolis on the Ottoman side at the Battle of Nicopolis - one of the largest engagements of the Middle Ages, charging into the flank of the crusader forces and routing them. From the early 15th century until the mid 19th, Serbian soldiery fought under various flags. Austrian, Hungarian, Ottoman etc. The First and Second Uprisings in the early 19th century were as militarily successful as they had any right to be, given the disparity in opposing forces.

The point of all this is simple: the Serbian people has a thousand year old tradition of military service and victory - as well as defeat, to be certain. Perhaps you may disagree with a certain other poster about the likelihood of war over the status of Kosovo in the future. But that neither gives you the right, nor should it give you the inclination to go so low as to question that tradition on such a premise.

Relax. Don't get so excited about these things. And stay objective and formal.

That last bit of advice should apply equally across the board...

L.

Knowing all that, like Serbs fighting on both sides even back then, and Serbs even intercepting Skanderbeg to stop him from helping Hungarians against the Ottomans in the 2nd battle of Kosovo, you gotta admit the whole "noble Serbs fought all that is Ottoman for 500 years" is mostly product of myth and legend and nationalism that came later. It's almost NEEDED for nationalism to work. Reality isn't nearly that black and white. Some Serbs fought them, some fought FOR them, like anyone else.

Most people don't know ANYTHING about all those details.

And yea Maritsa was 10 times more important then Kosovo imo.

Good book on the whole subject by Andre Gerolymatos.

The Balkan Wars: Conquest, Revolution, and Retribution from the Ottoman Era to the Twentieth Century and Beyond.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512Q0JM7Z0L._SL210_.jpg

[Stefan850]

Knowing all that, like Serbs fighting on both sides even back then, and Serbs even intercepting Skanderbeg to stop him from helping Hungarians against the Ottomans in the 2nd battle of Kosovo, you gotta admit the whole "noble Serbs fought all that is Ottoman for 500 years" is mostly product of myth and legend and nationalism that came later. It's almost NEEDED for nationalism to work. Reality isn't nearly that black and white. Some Serbs fought them, some fought FOR them, like anyone else.

Most people don't know ANYTHING about all those details.

And yea Maritsa was 10 times more important then Kosovo imo.

Good book on the whole subject by Andre Gerolymatos.

The Balkan Wars: Conquest, Revolution, and Retribution from the Ottoman Era to the Twentieth Century and Beyond.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512Q0JM7Z0L._SL210_.jpg


I dont think anyone in Serbia thinks that "noble Serbs fought all that is Ottoman for 500 years". And things like that happen all the time in history, no one rational can't think or expect that every part of Serbia would rise when country is under occupation for couple of centuries, there are always personal interests involved. There are tons of examples for that. Robert De Brus and he's son that became King of Scots first come to my mind, sure there are many others.

[The Balkan]

I dont think anyone in Serbia thinks that "noble Serbs fought all that is Ottoman for 500 years". And things like that happen all the time in history, no one rational can't think or expect that every part of Serbia would rise when country is under occupation for couple of centuries, there are always personal interests involved. There are tons of examples for that. Robert De Brus and he's son that became King of Scots first come to my mind, sure there are many others.

Yes, that is the reasonable way to think. But we both know what I'm talking about too. It's been said so many times especialy by nationalist types. And nearly every argument between Bosnian-Serbian-Albanian persons will have the "We fought the Turks, and lived in opression 500 years! While you were all traitors and suck ups whoopressed us with them!" line. Serbs honestly helped the Ottomans almost as much as they fought them. Only mention others getis the ocasional mention of Husein-kapetan Gradascevic (who actualy did beat them at Kosovo lol Annihilated them in fact.) or Skanderbeg.

[Stefan850]

Yes, that is the reasonable way to think. But we both know what I'm talking about too. It's been said so many times especialy by nationalist types. And nearly every argument between Bosnian-Serbian-Albanian persons will have the "We fought the Turks, and lived in opression 500 years! While you were all traitors and suck ups whoopressed us with them!" line. Serbs honestly helped the Ottomans almost as much as they fought them.

Well you cant escape that, they are the same people on "your side" that say how Serbians are war criminals and savages and how Serbs raped women and killed children while Croats and Muslims only fought for there freedom.
There will always be ignorant people on all sides.

[Paya]

Knowing all that, like Serbs fighting on both sides even back then, and Serbs even intercepting Skanderbeg to stop him from helping Hungarians against the Ottomans in the 2nd battle of Kosovo, you gotta admit the whole "noble Serbs fought all that is Ottoman for 500 years" is mostly product of myth and legend and nationalism that came later.
Talking about Serbs as a compact group in the period following Emperor Dusan's death is virtually impossible. There were many feudal masters with different agendas and foreign policies. Some fought for the Turks, some against them, the common trait both groups share is political opportunism, or colloquially, the willingness to whore around for power.


Serbs honestly helped the Ottomans almost as much as they fought them.
Only true in the late medieval period. Ironically enough, when the Serbian nobility ceased to exist, the Serbs became a nation, insofar that they all fought the same enemy (in this case, the Ottomans). They rebelled at every given chance, and each time suffered horrible retributions, but kept on being a pain in the neck for several Ottoman dynasties. And yes, the fact that we function better without our so-called elite, worries and disturbs me.

[V.I.D.]

Paya beat me to it (the answer to The Balkan). It is delusional to claim that Serbs helped Ottomans as much as they fought them. The fact is that there were times (as said earlier, late medieval period) when Serbs did even fight on their side against Hungarians, for example. However, one should not forget that Hungary was Serbs' enemy for a lot longer time than Ottoman Turks were (since early 900s, basically). The cowardly attack by Sigismund in the wake of Battle of Kosovo definitely helped Stefan Lazarevic's decision to fight crusaders led by Sigismund at Nicopolis 1396. Not to mention that it was said that he actually truly respected Bayasit and vice-versa and saw him as a mentor of the kind. Hence, I prefer when people steer away from over-generalizations on the subjects they may not know enough about or purposefully twist the subject/promote half-truths.

For example, Bosnians (Bosnian muslims mainly) fought Ottoman Empire under Gradascevic and others in 19th century, but is not explained that they were fighting to preserve the old Ottoman order as opposed to modernization that was initiated in Istambul. This may sound ironical (the above example), but the realities at the time should not be taken at today's face value, that is, the historical events need to be understood in the clear context of that age and geopolitical situation. Another myth of such kind is that Germans were always Serbs' enemies when these two nations/ethnic groups had great relationship in medieval time, especially under Stephen Dushan who almost got married to a German princess. Alliances can and do change over time although people see to forget that sometimes.

[The Balkan]

Paya beat me to it (the answer to The Balkan). It is delusional to claim that Serbs helped Ottomans as much as they fought them. The fact is that there were times (as said earlier, late medieval period) when Serbs did even fight on their side against Hungarians, for example. However, one should not forget that Hungary was Serbs' enemy for a lot longer time than Ottoman Turks were (since early 900s, basically). The cowardly attack by Sigismund in the wake of Battle of Kosovo definitely helped Stefan Lazarevic's decision to fight crusaders led by Sigismund at Nicopolis 1396. Not to mention that it was said that he actually truly respected Bayasit and vice-versa and saw him as a mentor of the kind. Hence, I prefer when people steer away from over-generalizations on the subjects they may not know enough about or purposefully twist the subject/promote half-truths.

For example, Bosnians (Bosnian muslims mainly) fought Ottoman Empire under Gradascevic and others in 19th century, but is not explained that they were fighting to preserve the old Ottoman order as opposed to modernization that was initiated in Istambul. This may sound ironical (the above example), but the realities at the time should not be taken at today's face value, that is, the historical events need to be understood in the clear context of that age and geopolitical situation. Another myth of such kind is that Germans were always Serbs' enemies when these two nations/ethnic groups had great relationship in medieval time, especially under Stephen Dushan who almost got married to a German princess. Alliances can and do change over time although people see to forget that sometimes.

My point was that it has been greatly exagarated as if Serbs had no hand in Ottoman affairs, power and empire. That it wasn'tnearlyso black and white. PLus I said "almost" helped them asmuch as hurt them. And they did in my opinion, cuz mostof the rebellions really didn't do much, while most of the help cost the Balkans alot.

As for Gradascevic, he and others were outraged by a few changes which were seen as bad for us yes, but mainly by the giving away of Bosnian land after Russia got the better of the Ottomans. So he decided on autonomy.

His demands:


Repeal the privileges granted to Serbia and, in particular, return the six old Bosnian districts.
Cease the implementation of the nizam military reforms.
End the governorship of Bosnia and accept the implementation of an autonomous Bosnian government headed by a local leader. In return, Bosnia would pay a yearly tribute.
And he would've won it if it wasn't for the betrayal of Rizvanbegovic from Herzegovina. What the hell was that dude thinking LOL.

The man will always be the biggest Bosnian hero. His castle in Gradacac is still staning even after all the bombings in all the wars. And now they're planning a giant monument as well I heard.

[V.I.D.]

The man will always be the biggest Bosnian hero. His castle in Gradacac is still staning even after all the bombings in all the wars. And now they're planning a giant monument as well I heard.

And that is cool enough. It is well known that he was respected by Serbs at the time and certainly was an inspiring leader.

Back to the topic of Serbia's contribution to the Ottomans, it gave them Mehmed Pasa Sokolovic, strong elite forces in late medieval period (heavy cavalry, janissaries later on) and the European language for communication in Balkans/S. Europe. They repaid in kind by burning St.Sava's relicts/bones in Belgrade in 1593 and by brutally supressing rebellions. However, after 350-400 years of fighting Ottomans, Serbs and other Balkan Christians prevailed in the end. Bottom line is, Ottomans did prevent development of this area for a long time, since while the West managed to go on with renaissance, baroque or The Enlightenment, Balkan nations had to fight to maintain their sheer identity and population. Ottomans thus managed to hold back once promising and blooming European societies (Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Croatia/Hungary, Wallachia).

Now, since this thread has definitely reached the limits of its purposefullness, I suggest locking it (unless somebody contributes to the actual topic of ICJ iniiative in the next couple of posts)

[Paya]

My point was that it has been greatly exagarated as if Serbs had no hand in Ottoman affairs, power and empire.
They didn't. Those that didn't convert at least.


PLus I said "almost" helped them asmuch as hurt them. And they did in my opinion, cuz mostof the rebellions really didn't do much, while most of the help cost the Balkans alot.
Oh I don't know. There are those who would say that those rebellions were instrumental for Austrian incursions across the Danube.

And there's only one instance where Serbian help significantly helped the Ottomans, and that was in Battle of Nicopolis. Not half century after that, the Serbian state and its nobility ceased to exist, and every Serbian-Ottoman cooperation likewise vanished. All that remained were the constant rebellions.


Repeal the privileges granted to Serbia and, in particular, return the six old Bosnian districts.
What privileges were those?

[The Balkan]

What privileges were those?



The turning point for Gradaščević came with the end of the Russo-Ottoman War and the Treaty of Adrianople on September 14, 1829. According to the provisions of the treaty, the Ottoman Empire had to grant autonomy to Serbia. In a move that outraged Bosniaks and launched numerous protests, newly autonomous Serbia was also given six districts (Bosnian: nahijas) that had traditionally belonged to Bosnia. Following this confiscation of historically Bosnian lands the Bosnian autonomy movement was born.


Between the December 20 and December 31, 1830, Gradaščević hosted a gathering of Bosniak aristocrats in Gradačac. A month later, from January 20 to February 5, another meeting was held in Tuzla to prepare for the revolt. From there, a call was issued to the Bosnian populace asking them to rise up to the defense of Bosnia. It was then that the popular Husein-kapetan was unofficially chosen to head the movement. Further details of this meeting are murky and disputable. According to certain contemporary sources, the Bosniaks demanded that Istanbul:

Repeal the privileges granted to Serbia and, in particular, return the six old Bosnian districts.
Cease the implementation of the nizam military reforms.
End the governorship of Bosnia and accept the implementation of an autonomous Bosnian government headed by a local leader. In return, Bosnia would pay a yearly tribute.

And btw all those names that helped the Ottomans didn't convert to anything. Konstantin Dejanovic, Đurađ Branković, etc.

[Paya]

The turning point for Gradaščević came with the end of the Russo-Ottoman War and the Treaty of Adrianople on September 14, 1829. According to the provisions of the treaty, the Ottoman Empire had to grant autonomy to Serbia. In a move that outraged Bosniaks and launched numerous protests, newly autonomous Serbia was also given six districts (Bosnian: nahijas) that had traditionally belonged to Bosnia. Following this confiscation of historically Bosnian lands the Bosnian autonomy movement was born.


Between the December 20 and December 31, 1830, Gradaščević hosted a gathering of Bosniak aristocrats in Gradačac. A month later, from January 20 to February 5, another meeting was held in Tuzla to prepare for the revolt. From there, a call was issued to the Bosnian populace asking them to rise up to the defense of Bosnia. It was then that the popular Husein-kapetan was unofficially chosen to head the movement. Further details of this meeting are murky and disputable. According to certain contemporary sources, the Bosniaks demanded that Istanbul:

Repeal the privileges granted to Serbia and, in particular, return the six old Bosnian districts.
Cease the implementation of the nizam military reforms.
End the governorship of Bosnia and accept the implementation of an autonomous Bosnian government headed by a local leader. In return, Bosnia would pay a yearly tribute.


Actually, Serbia was granted autonomy in 1815, after the Second Serbian Uprising. The nahijas were indeed given to Serbia in 1829, but they sure as hell weren't historically Bosnian, since they were a few districts in Eastern Serbia. So now you've managed to confuse the hell out of me.



And btw all those names that helped the Ottomans didn't convert to anything. Konstantin Dejanovic, Đurađ Branković, etc.
You said "Ottoman affairs, power and empire". I thought you meant the Serbs who actually participated in governing the Empire.

[Pejon09]

"Kosovo prepares ICJ defense"

12 October 2008 | 17:51 | Source: FoNet PRIŠTINA -- A Kosovo official says "defense plans for the legality of Kosovo's independence proclamation before the International Court of Justice are nearing completion".

"We are ready for this situation as well. We have contact with domestic and foreign experts, and we are currently in the final phases of producing a platform that will soon be presented to the public," Vlora Citaku, whom the Kosovo Albanian authorities appointed as deputy foreign minister, said.

She added that the work being done by the Kosovo Albanian institutions is "serious", and that there is no need to fear the ICJ ruling, adding that "all political, historical and legal arguments are on our side".

Citaku said that Priština will present Martti Ahtisaari's plan on supervised independence as an answer to Belgrade's initiative, "along with the fact that the creation of the state of Kosovo is a result of the breakup of the former Yugoslavia and the wars led in the 1900s".

Last Wednesday, the UN General Assembly decided to send Serbia's resolution to the ICJ.

This tribunal will be asked whether the unilateral declaration of independence by the temporary self-rule institutions in Kosovo is in line with international law.

The court's ruling is not binding, and is classified as advisory

[The Balkan]

Actually, Serbia was granted autonomy in 1815, after the Second Serbian Uprising. The nahijas were indeed given to Serbia in 1829, but they sure as hell weren't historically Bosnian, since they were a few districts in Eastern Serbia. So now you've managed to confuse the hell out of me.


You said "Ottoman affairs, power and empire". I thought you meant the Serbs who actually participated in governing the Empire.

Serbia was promised the autonomy we're talking about in the Russo-Turkish war of 1828-1829. Treaty of Adrianpople. "The Sultan reguaranteed the previously promised autonomy to Serbia". You're confusing it with the results of the Serbian uprising in 1815.

Those lands were part of Bosnia whent hey were given away, lets leave it at that. Unless you think the whole country rose up to get back land that never belonged to them Lol

[V.I.D.]

I don't have a habit of digging the old threads up, but since this case is to be continued tomorrow it is perhaps better to continue the topic on this thread instead of opening the new one. Here are most recent news about the ICJ case on Kosovo's proclamation of independence.

B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics http://static.b92.net/images/trans.gif Jeremić: ICJ case historic 16 April 2009 | 09:23 | Source: B92, RTS BELGRADE -- Legal teams representing Serbia and Priština have finalized preparations of their arguments on Kosovo independence, which will now be submitted to the ICJ.

http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2009/04/68489649749e6df2bc1fae157211891_MidCol.jpgVuk Jeremić (FoNet, archive)

That documentation is necessary for the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to be able to make a ruling on the legality of the province’s unilateral independence declaration.

According to Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremić, Serbia’s deposition will contain around 300 pages, which, together with other appended documents, will come to over 1,000 pages. The legal documentation will be supplemented by facts on Kosovo’s status since the Ottoman empire through until the present day.

Jeremić told state broadcaster RTS that the case at the ICJ would be historic.

“This is the first time in history that the ICJ will be considering an illegal act of secession. Therefore, what the court rules in our case will set a precedent for every future attempt at secession throughout the world,” said the minister.

“That means that everyone will refer to this ruling. As a result there is great interest in this case in the professional public and among international legal circles,” he explained.

“This is, in every aspect, a historic case before the ICJ. For Serbia it’s exceedingly important, but I think it will have great significance—I mean, for peace and stability and international relations in the world in the 21st century,” Jeremić surmised.

UN member-states will also be entitled to address the court in this case. Serbia has a number of powerful allies on its side, said the minister, but so too does Priština.

On April 17, the ICJ will announce what other countries, Serbia aside, will be putting forward their opinion on Kosovo’s independence.

According to media in Priština, the Kosovo institutions have prepared their arguments too. The Priština team’s documentation, headed by British international legal expert Michael Wood, contains two sections of around 500 pages each.

B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics http://static.b92.net/images/trans.gif Romania submits opinion on Kosovo 16 April 2009 | 15:56 | Source: Tanjug BELGRADE -- Romania has presented its legal opinion on the legality of Kosovo’s unilaterally declared independence to the International Court of Justice (ICJ).

Romanian Ambassador to Serbia Ion Macovei told Tanjug the opinion contained an analysis by his country's legal representatives of all the relevant UN SC resolutions on Kosovo, while emphasizing adherence to resolution 1244, which, he noted, was still in force and which endorsed Serbia’s territorial integrity in line with international law and the final Helsinki Act.

“Romania does not recognize Kosovo independence, and the Serbian people know that Romania has supported the UN General Assembly, which, at Serbia's initiative, has instructed the Foreign Ministry to take a stand on the legality of Kosovo's independence. Romania's contribution is constructive and is strictly based on law," Macovei underscored.

Tanjug has learned from the Spanish embassy in Belgrade that Madrid will also be submitting its legal opinion to the ICJ.

Spain will present its opinion in writing, but the contents of that document cannot be made public until it is handed over to the ICJ, the Spanish embassy said in a written statement to Tanjug.

According to unofficial information, Belgrade's case will be supported by Russia, China, Spain, Slovakia, Romania, Cyprus, Georgia, Argentina, Azerbaijan, Bolivia and Venezuela.

The Kosovo Albanians are likely to have the backing of the United States, Great Britain, Germany, France, Switzerland, Austria, Finland, Denmark and Slovenia.

B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics http://static.b92.net/images/trans.gif France to participate at ICJ 16 April 2009 | 11:52 -> 12:22 | Source: Danas, Tanjug BELGRADE, PARIS -- The International Court of Justice in The Hague has still to receive the legal opinion of any countries regarding Kosovo’s unilateral independence declaration.

France said yesterday that it would be submitting its position on the matter.

"France will submit a written expose to the ICJ, where will outline its position," confirmed French government spokesman Roman Nadal. He would not be drawn on what side France would be taking in the case.

The deadline for submissions to reach the ICJ is Friday.

According to daily Danas, Serbia has completed its argumentation against Kosovo’s independence, with the Serbian legal team due to submit its documentation to the ICJ this week.

The documentation is made up of two books—the first is a submission to the court of about 350 pages of legal documents, with several maps showing Kosovo in various historical phases, while the other book contains documents to corroborate the view that the declaration of Kosovo independence is not in accordance with international law.

Serbia is expected to receive supported before the ICJ from Russia, China, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Argentina, Bolivia, Venezuela, Romania, Cyprus, Spain and Slovakia.

Meanwhile, the U.S., the UK, Germany, France, Switzerland, Austria, Finland, Denmark and Slovenia are expected to come out in favor of Priština.

All countries submitting their opinion on Kosovo’s independence will receive the opinions of the other countries as well, in order to be able to append their own comments by July 17. The court will then schedule a verbal debate, after which the ICJ will declare its judgment on the legality of Kosovo’s independence.

B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics http://static.b92.net/images/trans.gif Priština arguments for ICJ case under wraps 16 April 2009 | 13:38 | Source: FoNet PRIŠTINA -- Kosovo’s case for the legality of its independence declaration, due to be presented to the ICJ by Priština next week, is still being kept secret.

The Kosovo government claims that its team is ready to defend its decision to unilaterally declare independence from Serbia. However, the opposition is questioning the government’s ability to successfully represent Kosovo’s interests before the International Court of Justice.

Kosovo Deputy Prime Minister Hajredin Kuqi said that the Kosovo side, led by British lawyer Michael Wood, had prepared very professionally.

“I am sure that the decision will be positive and that it will strike a chord with even those countries that are still undecided about their relations with Kosovo,” he said.

Kosovo analyst Lulzim Peci said that Kosovo’s unilateral independence declaration was completely in accordance with international law and that it did not contravene UN Resolution 1244.

“Since the temporary institutions declared independence and since it was not declared null and void by the UN Secretary General’s special envoy, that means that it was legal,” he said.

“The UN General Assembly resolution, adopted in October last year at Serbia’s behest calling for the ICJ to give its opinion on the legality of the province’s independence, has already had a negative impact on Kosovo and slowed down the recognition process,” Peci said.

“If Kosovo wins on legal principles too, Kosovo will be a country that had the right to declare independence, but if it goes the other way, we will have problems with further recognitions and entering the EU,” Peci observed.

[V.I.D.]

B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics http://static.b92.net/images/trans.gif Serbia submits Kosovo motion to ICJ 17 April 2009 | 11:11 | Source: B92, Beta BELGRADE -- Serbia has this Friday submitted its Kosovo motion to The Hague-based International Court of Justice (ICJ).

In over a thousand pages of legal arguments and documents, the state contests the legality of the Kosovo Albanian unilateral declaration of Kosovo's independence.

The document has been officially delivered by chief legal representative Saša Obradović, who said Serbia's argument before the court will be that the proclamation is a legal rather than a political issue.

The state insists that the unilateral decision, made by the temporary Kosovo institutions over a year ago, had violated international law, Obradović added.

At the same time, the Kosovo Albanian legal team will submit its files defending the proclamation.

The submitting of written motions marks the end of the first phase of the process.

Serbia expects that those countries which have not recognized the declaration will support its case at the ICJ.

On Monday, the court will publish the list of all the countries that have decided to take part in the process by submitting written explanations.

Unofficially, Serbia will be supported in this way by Russia, China, several Latin American countries, and those European states which have not recognized Kosovo.

Arguments in favor of Serbia's position and against the province's independence could also come from some Islamic countries.

The process of assessing the legality of Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence was launched by the highest UN court at the order of the UN General Assembly and at Serbia's initiative.

A resolution adopted by the General Assembly ordered the ICJ to provide an advisory opinion on whether the unilateral proclamation of independence of Kosovo in February 2008 was in line with international law.

In the next stage, which will last until July 17 this year, all sides involved will have the right to provide the court with additional written arguments and comments on the written filings of other participants in the process, the sources said.

ICJ judges will then review all the case documents and schedule a hearing, where the sides involved will exchange verbal arguments. The court will then hand down an advisory assessment of whether the declaration of independence was legal.

The ICJ is not bound by any deadlines, and the judges usually take months to reach a decision.

[Gentius]

Saudi Arabia "recognizes Kosovo"

20 April 2009 | 16:26 | Source: B92, Beta RIYADH -- Saudi Arabia has decided to "recognize the independence of Kosovo", this country's Foreign Affairs Ministry announced.

Saudi Arabia is the second Arab country to make the announcement.

A short statement from the ministry on Monday said that the decision came "bearing in mind religious and cultural ties with the people of Kosovo, and respecting their wish for independence".

The statement added that Riyadh "hopes this initiative will contribute to security, stability and prosperity of Kosovo and neighboring countries".

Kosovo's ethnic Albanians unilaterally declared independence in February 2008. The proclamation has been recognized by 58 country, but rejected by Serbia, which considers it illegal.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2009&mm=04&dd=20&nav_id=58634

[V.I.D.]

B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics http://static.b92.net/images/trans.gif ICJ to reveal countries taking part 20 April 2009 | 10:03 | Source: B92 BELGRADE -- The International Court of Justice (ICJ) is expected to reveal which countries have submitted written statements in the Kosovo case.

The Hague-based court has last Friday received Serbia's motion (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2009&mm=04&dd=17&nav_id=58576)claiming the illegality of Kosovo Albanian's unilateral declaration of independence.

According what B92 has learned unofficially, 18 states that have recognized the proclamation, and 15 that have not, will take part in the process.

Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremić said on Sunday that many countries from all continents have announced they would participate, and said official Belgrade "can be optimistic" about the case.

Jeremić told B92 that the process is in many ways historic, since an act of secession is being debated for the first time, which has included a large number of countries, while some of the world's greatest powers, such as China, have for the first time officially submitted their opinion in a case.

The minister also stated that Serbia has been very active diplomatically in order to draw the attention of as many countries to the Kosovo problem, and that this effort has been successful.

Jeremić believes that the ICJ case will have "huge significance" for the future of international relations.





I think that the ICJ decision will indeed carry a lot of weight (Jeremic's "huge significance") for the future of secessionist movements in many countries around the world. If the ICJ decides to close its eyes and pretend everything was legal with Kosovo independence, expect lots of new conflicts in Europe and worldwide. What would such ICJ decision mean for Serbs in practical terms is explained in this guy's comment (also from the B92 website):

This will be a historic decision. Even though it is a clear cut case, as UDI of that fake, illegal and immoral 'state' is very clearly illegal and criminal - the US/Germany will do whatever they can to pressure their minions and lapdogs.

One thing is for sure, if this court actually somehow rules that Kosovo's secession was 'legal', it will just show that this court is just as fake as that anti-Serb political kangaroo court in the Hague.

On the bright side, this will have some positive effects for Serbia, since Republika Srpska will be able to use that decision to declare independence, a UDI of their own :). Russia will be happy to recognize us, just wait and see.

So if they dare open up this pandora's box, go ahead I say. Serbia may be a small country, but we are very good at bringing down huge empires - Ottoman, Austro-Hungarian, Third Reich....who will be our next victim? Will it be NATO and the 'new world order'? Only time will tell....
Cheers!!
(Dragan, 20 April 2009 15:49)

[Gentius]

Dragan? rofl

How about we stick to our own comments instead of posting others.

[V.I.D.]

Dragan? rofl

How about we stick to our own comments instead of posting others.

I'm honestly not getting your point here? Does the fact he's probably Serbian make any difference? On the same website there's multitude of Albanian comments under Albanian or "westernized" names. Everyone's free to comment the news as they see fit.

Finally, his comment pretty much explained what I was aiming at (except for the bottom paragraph displaying some ignorant arrogance about the Serbs' role in "destroying empires"), so I've just decided to copy & paste it here. You're certainly not forced to read what you don't like.

Since we're discussing the ICJ decision, what is your take on it? I think they'll try to come up with some lame solution as to "not offend anybody", albeit all the legal arguments are strongly in Serbian hands.

[Gentius]

I think ICJ's final verdict will be by both parties claiming victory. Belgrade having right due of International Law while Prishtina what took place in 90s.


...after all its just an opinion, but will have an effect if recognitions will speed up or slow down.

[V.I.D.]

I think ICJ's final verdict will be by both parties claiming victory. Belgrade having right due of International Law while Prishtina what took place in 90s.


...after all its just an opinion, but will have an effect if recognitions will speed up or slow down.

That's sort of how I see it happening as well.

[Hyde]

Saudi Arabia "recognizes Kosovo"

20 April 2009 | 16:26 | Source: B92, Beta RIYADH -- Saudi Arabia has decided to "recognize the independence of Kosovo", this country's Foreign Affairs Ministry announced.

Saudi Arabia is the second Arab country to make the announcement.

A short statement from the ministry on Monday said that the decision came "bearing in mind religious and cultural ties with the people of Kosovo, and respecting their wish for independence".

The statement added that Riyadh "hopes this initiative will contribute to security, stability and prosperity of Kosovo and neighboring countries".

Kosovo's ethnic Albanians unilaterally declared independence in February 2008. The proclamation has been recognized by 58 country, but rejected by Serbia, which considers it illegal.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2009&mm=04&dd=20&nav_id=58634

It's all politics, i hope the International Court of Justice will put a stop to it (it being power and money controlling) and return the world to a less intrigued and more legal based system, or everything will go up in flames again. Some of my Albanian friends also say that it would be better to have stability and an enviroment in which the people can live instead of any corrupt system, serbia thankfully is to the most degree out of the chaos we had in the 90s..

[Dark-Angel25]

Kosovo's "independence" to be tested


MOSCOW. (RIA Novosti political commentator Andrei Fedyashin) - On April 17, Serbia will file its case with the International Court of Justice in The Hague against Kosovo's right to independence.
Fifteen judges of the most important court in the UN will face a challenging task of determining what Kosovo really is and if it had the right to declare independence. The Court has two years in which to give the answer to the question put by Serbia last year and approved for consideration in the Court by a UN General Assembly session. The verdict is expected to be handed down in 2011.
Although the judges could speed up the process and reach a verdict earlier, they are not motivated to do so. Nor is anybody else. Because, from a global perspective, regardless of whether their decision is in favor of Serbia or against it, it will do nothing to alter Kosovo's new administrative status.
Incidentally, Serbia has already said it will accept any ruling, while Kosovo's Prime Minister Hashim Thaci uttered something like this: "Whatever is decided will be neither here nor there. We are already independent - period."
To begin with, any decision will be a consultative one. Last year, Serbia had to lodge a complaint with the UN General Assembly, rather than the Security Council, for the simple reason that it was not a dispute between member-countries but claims against a self-proclaimed territory. Second, the General Assembly's resolution does not deal with the legitimacy of Kosovo's independence. The Hague has been requested to provide an expert opinion on this question: "Does the unilateral declaration of independence by interim bodies in Kosovo meet the norms of international law?"
There is a big difference between "illegitimate independence" and "independence declared by interim bodies in conformity with international norms of law." Many Serbian legal experts suggested that Belgrade change the wording and request that The Hague answer if it was legitimate for UN member-states to recognize Kosovo's independence in accordance with the norms of international law and UN resolutions. But Belgrade held back, considering that the trial would take too long, because every country would have to be examined for its reasons.
There are 57 such reasons today. That is the number of countries that have recognized Kosovo's independence by April 16, 2009. Interestingly, only 22 out of 27 European Union states have recognized Kosovo so far. Spain, Greece, Romania, Cyprus and Slovakia, occasionally hit by separatist sentiments, are still refusing to recognize Kosovo. Slovakia has acknowledged Kosovo's passports, but offered no state-level recognition. Among other nations, Russia, China, India, Indonesia, Brazil and Iran do not intend to recognize Kosovo. Countries refusing to recognize Kosovo include the Vatican, Libya, Argentina (it is still hoping to recover the Malvinas (Faulklands) from Britain), Israel, Egypt, Georgia, Moldova, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Ukraine and South Africa. Altogether, 44 countries are firmly set against Kosovo's independence.
While The Hague is deciding what to do with Kosovo's right to declared independence, the process of recognition will no doubt slow down. The verdict will be of serious symbolical significance, although it is hard to say which way The Hague judges will lean - there are several schools of international law on the norms of recognizing a state's independence, and just as many criteria. And, as often happens in international law, any "outgoing" ruling usually contains such blurred and fanciful wording that it can easily be stretched in different and sometimes opposite directions. The Hague Court need not be expected to produce anything out of the ordinary. Its judges are too sober-minded to issue a hard-nosed verdict and bind international law to a cast-iron precedent.
If the Court rules against Kosovo Albanians, it will incite many separatists. But, with the crisis going full blast, they are incited as it is, and are unlikely to be spurred any further. Most likely, the ruling will be neither in favor of Serbia nor Kosovo. One thing is certain: in any case, it will have no effect on Kosovo's future.
The Hague judges are no surgeons. And hotheads in Serbia or elsewhere should not expect them to reattach the amputated Kosovo back to Serbia. Officially, Kosovo's independence was declared on March 17, 2008, but in fact it existed from the spring of 1999, when NATO began bombing Yugoslavia. This is something no one can ever do. And, getting down to brass tacks, the Serbs (and previously the people of Yugoslavia) should blame their own governments, going back even further than Milosevic. They did little to cement the seams binding Kosovo and Metochia (the official name of the province) with Yugoslavia, and the seams gradually came apart. They were finally severed by NATO bombings.
Kosovo currently shares the status of other semi- or partly-recognized or non-recognized but self-declared states. They include Taiwan, Transdnestr, the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Tamil-Eelam, a de facto independent state in the north-east of Sri Lanka. Taiwan is closest to Kosovo in status. It is recognized by 22 countries, the largest among which are Nicaragua, Salvador and Paraguay. In this weight category there is also the Vatican. Taiwan would have long become a regular member of the world community if it were not for China. All those who did not recognize Taiwan have always feared to exasperate the Heavenly Empire. Northern Cyprus has been recognized by only one country (Turkey), and Abkhazia and South Ossetia have been recognized by two countries each - Russia and Nicaragua.
Since international recognition of Taiwan is no longer an issue, the deliberations of The Hague judges will be followed with most interest by the remaining partly- recognized and/or non-proclaimed but separatist-minded territories and peoples. There are more of them than one might think in the world. They exist in Europe (Hungarians in Romania, Basques in Spain, Albanians in Macedonia and Greece, Corsicans in France, "Northeners" in Italy, Catholics in Ulster, etc.), Asia, North and South America, and Africa.
The Court in The Hague has asked all UN countries concerned to present their arguments for or against Kosovo's independence by July 17. It set it as the starting date for serious deliberation. Incidentally, Michael Wood, one of the best-known world experts on international law from Britain, will represent the Kosovo side. He advised the UN Security Council, took part in drafting the UN Law of the Sea Conventions and prepared legal grounds for the Dayton Accords on Bosnia and Herzegovina. Since 1995 he has been concentrating on Kosovo.

[V.I.D.]

B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics http://static.b92.net/images/trans.gif 35 countries to take part in ICJ Kosovo case 21 April 2009 | 23:16 | Source: Beta, Tanjug THE HAGUE -- The International Court of Justice (ICJ) confirmed on Tuesday that 35 UN member states have filed written statements in the Kosovo process.

The countries have given their opinion regarding the case, where Serbia is contesting the legality of the Kosovo Albanians' unilateral independence declaration made in February 2008.

Beta news agency reports that Kosovo's provisional government also submitted an opinion.

The Hague-based court said that the opinions would remain confidential for the time being.

Written statements were filed by the Czech Republic, France, Cyprus, China, Switzerland, Romania, Albania, Austria, Egypt, Germany, Slovakia, Russia, Finland, Poland, Luxemburg, Libya, the United Kingdom, the United States, Serbia, Spain, Iran, Estonia, Norway, Netherlands, Slovenia, Latvia, Japan, Brazil, Ireland, Denmark, Argentina, Azerbaijan, Maldives, Sierra Leone and Bolivia.

[V.I.D.]

B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics http://static.b92.net/images/trans.gif UK expert: Kosovo independence is illegal act 21 April 2009 | 10:43 | Source: Tanjug, Večernje novosti BELGRADE -- An international expert on territories under international administration says Kosovo Albanians' UDI is tantamount to illegal secession.

“The local Albanians do not have the right to self-determination and Kosovo is not an independent state,” Professor Ralph Wilde said in a statement for Belgrade daily Večernje Novosti published on Tuesday.

Wilde is a consultant for a number of governments and international organizations, a member of the Law Faculty of University College London, the University of London, and an Adjunct Professor at Georgetown University Law Center.

“Under international law, a new state can be formed out of a part of the territory of an existing state, and its formation and recognition by third states will be legal provided everything is taking place with the approval of the parent state,” Wilde said.

“In order for a declaration of independence and any recognition of a state proclaimed in such a way to be legal, a special legal entitlement must be found,” he said.

“The Kosovo Albanians do not have the right to self-determination and, consequently, they do not have the right to proclaim a state,” Wilde specified.

“Under international law, such developments taking place without the agreement of the two sides involved or without a binding resolution passed by the United Nations Security Council would imply the preservation of Serbia's sovereignty over Kosovo. Kosovo's declaration of independence is tantamount to illegal secession, and that is what happened in this case,” the analyst told the daily.

“States that recognize Kosovo as independent are inevitably violating their obligation to respect Serbia’s sovereignty and territorial integrity,” Wilde pointed out.

“Recognitions can have a constitutive role, but only if we’re talking about a significant number of states. In the same way, if a significant number of states deny Kosovo the right to statehood, that has a constitutively negative role on the issue of its statehood. That’s why it’s unclear whether Kosovo is a state, even if certain states treat it as such, and which, I’d say, puts them in a position that breaches international law in the section pertaining to obligations towards Serbia,” said the professor.

He said that the “main legal criterion for statehood effectively implies the sustainability of a given entity, which means that it has territory, a population and a government, and that it is independent of foreign control,” adding that “Kosovo’s chief problem is that it’s not independent of foreign control. It remains under UN and NATO supervision.”

“The problem is that under UN Security Council resolution 1244 and the Peace Plan, it was agreed that such control should be carried out on the basis that Kosovo is a part of Serbia, not an independent state,” said Wilde.

[Gentius]

B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics http://static.b92.net/images/trans.gif 35 countries to take part in ICJ Kosovo case 21 April 2009 | 23:16 | Source: Beta, Tanjug THE HAGUE -- The International Court of Justice (ICJ) confirmed on Tuesday that 35 UN member states have filed written statements in the Kosovo process.

The countries have given their opinion regarding the case, where Serbia is contesting the legality of the Kosovo Albanians' unilateral independence declaration made in February 2008.

Beta news agency reports that Kosovo's provisional government also submitted an opinion.

The Hague-based court said that the opinions would remain confidential for the time being.

Written statements were filed by the Czech Republic, France, Cyprus, China, Switzerland, Romania, Albania, Austria, Egypt, Germany, Slovakia, Russia, Finland, Poland, Luxemburg, Libya, the United Kingdom, the United States, Serbia, Spain, Iran, Estonia, Norway, Netherlands, Slovenia, Latvia, Japan, Brazil, Ireland, Denmark, Argentina, Azerbaijan, Maldives, Sierra Leone and Bolivia.

Kosovo 21:13 Serbia

Italy has withdraw, and Greece haven't declared

In Favor of Kosovo: USA, GB, France, Germany, Japan, Czech, Switzerland, Albania, Austria, Finland, Poland, Luxemburg, Estonia, Norway, Netherland, Slovenia, Letonia, Ireland, Denmark, Maldive and Sierra Leone.

Against: Russia, China, Cyprys, Romania, Egypt, Slovakia, Lybia, Spain, Iran, Brazil, Argentina, Azerbajan and Bolivia.