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2Sheds_Jackson
06-10-2004, 10:10 AM
From AP;

U.N. Finds Banned Missile Engines in Jordan

Wednesday, June 09, 2004

UNITED NATIONS — U.N. weapons experts have found 20 engines used in banned Iraqi missiles in a Jordan scrapyard along with other equipment that could be used to make weapons of mass destruction, an official said Wednesday.

The discoveries were revealed to the U.N. Security Council (search) by acting chief U.N. inspector Demetrius Perricos during in a closed-door briefing. The text was obtained by The Associated Press.

The U.N. team was following up on an earlier discovery of a similar Al Samoud 2 (search) engine in a scrapyard in the Dutch port of Rotterdam. Perricos said inspectors also want to check in Turkey, which has also received scrap metal from Iraq.

Perricos told the Security Council said U.N. inspectors do not know how much material that they had monitored orginated in Iraq.

U.N. inspectors were pulled out of Iraq just before the war began in March 2003, and the United States has refused to allow them to return, instead deploying its own teams to search for weapons of mass destruction.

Perricos suggested that the interim Iraqi government (search), which will assume sovereignty when the U.S. and British occupation of the country ends on June 30, may want to reconsider "the whole policy for the continued export of metal scrap" which apparently started in mid-2003 and is regulated by the U.S.-led coalition.

"The removal of these materials from Iraq raises concerns with regard to proliferation risks ... thereby also rendering the task of the disarmament of Iraq and its eventual confirmation, more difficult," Perricos said.

"The only controls at the borders are for the weight of the scrap metal, and to check whether there are any explosive or radioactive materials within the scrap," he said, according to the text of his briefing.

Afterwards, he told reporters that up to a thousand tons of scrap metal was leaving Iraq every day.

"It's being exported. It's being traded out, and there is a large variety of scrap metal from very new to very old, and slowly, it seems the country is depleted of metal," he said.

During last week's visit to Jordan, Perricos told the council that U.N. experts visited "relevant scrapyards" with the full cooperation of Jordanian authorities and discovered 20 SA-2 missile engines.

The U.N. team also discovered some processing equipment with U.N. tags — which show it was being monitored — including heat exchangers, and a solid propellant mixer bowl to make missile fuel, he said. It also discovered "a large number of other processing equipment without tags, in very good condition."

"These visits provide just a snapshot of the whole picture since the scrap metal has a short residence time and is re-exported to various countries," Perricos told the council.

In its quarterly report to the council on Monday, the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission which Perricos heads, said a number of sites in Iraq known to have contained equipment and material that could be used to produce banned weapons and long-range missiles have been cleaned out or destroyed.

The inspectors said they didn't know whether the items, which had been monitored by the United Nations, were at the sites during the U.S.-led war in Iraq. The commission, known as UNMOVIC (search), said it was possible some material was taken by looters and sold as scrap.

UNMOVIC said its experts and a team from the International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N. body responsible for dismantling Iraq's nuclear program, were jointly investigating items from Iraq discovered in a scrapyard in Rotterdam.


....looks like Saddam didn't even bother hiding the banned materials - he just threw them in the trash!

scm77
06-10-2004, 12:58 PM
How could they find banned missile engines in Jordan when Bush just lied about Saddam hiding them? :roll: :bash:

Howitz
06-10-2004, 01:08 PM
:cantbeli: the only logical explanation is that Bush planted them there because Saddam never had any, bush is a lier remeber!? jeez. some people..........

im joking of course, though im sure this explanation will come up more than a few times once this news gets out....

Mr Gently Benevolent
06-10-2004, 01:10 PM
You guys are living hope. :P

cut
06-10-2004, 01:37 PM
Who cares now? by banging on about it you're inviting the anti-war people to have a go, the hand over is in about four weeks we needn't worry about the causes of war anymore, it's a waste of energy, even Bush and Chirac are getting over it.

MEGR
06-10-2004, 01:41 PM
Who cares now? by banging on about it you're inviting the anti-war people to have a go, the hand over is in about four weeks we needn't worry about the causes of war anymore, it's a waste of energy, even Bush and Chirac are getting over it.

Although, it should make some people wonder what happened to these things..Anyways, I agree,the war ended, and now we are at occupation..

Old300
06-10-2004, 01:50 PM
Who cares now? by banging on about it you're inviting the anti-war people to have a go, the hand over is in about four weeks we needn't worry about the causes of war anymore, it's a waste of energy, even Bush and Chirac are getting over it.

I care. People are more likely to support a difficult endeavor if they think it is worthwhile; and, after more than a year of Iraq war opponents saying that "Bush lied" and "there were no WMD" and "Iraq was never a threat", more and more people came to believe that the war wasn't worth fighting.

I happen to believe that the Iraq war is justified on any number of grounds independent of WMD. But UN-banned programs were our primary stated motivation for fighting, and it is important that people know that, in fact, Saddam Hussein did have WMD and other prohibited materials and that it is right and good that we got rid of him.

We were right to go in in March 2003 and we are right to be there now, helping the Iraqis rebuild their country and heal their recently benighted civilization. If evidence of WMD helps our respective electorates to support those endeavors, then we are right to talk about them.

2Sheds_Jackson
06-10-2004, 01:51 PM
What gets me is the ease with which these things - - which entire teams of international observers were searching for for years - - just walked unnoticed out of Iraq. So Saddam managed to just throw these things in the trash to get rid of them. I wouldn't be surprised if he just had his navy dump all his WMD in the ocean (remember, he's not exacly eco-friendly)

Secret Squirrel
06-10-2004, 01:54 PM
What gets me is the ease with which these things - - which entire teams of international observers were searching for for years - - just walked unnoticed out of Iraq. So Saddam managed to just throw these things in the trash to get rid of them. I wouldn't be surprised if he just had his navy dump all his WMD in the ocean (remember, he's not exacly eco-friendly)

Is this the newest argument regarding the war? rofl How much longer before the alien conspiracy argument is used? rofl

Secret Squirrel
06-10-2004, 01:57 PM
Just to try and merge the two current threads on this topic...


lol, i'm so tired of these reports...everytime somone shows a report with the headline missle parts found in Jordan, people get their panties in a bunch....too bad the engine parts were from SA-2's (which r next to useless) hardly weapons of mass destruction. If it would have at least said FROG-7 (better but not much) or sumthing then ok.

We all know he had the capacity to make these weapons but there still is no evedience that he was activly producing said weapons and intending to use them to threaten regional stability or peace (at the time of invasion). Until u find a storage area in Iraq or a hidden chemical production facility that shows signs of recent usage then u can say the decision to go in is vindicated.

That's like my neighbor telling the cops i have a gun and she feels i might threaten her, all they find is a single bullet (old corroded, useless) in my yard (not even in my house) and arrest me for gun possesion. How would that hold up in a court?

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17021

Fintin
06-10-2004, 02:00 PM
i found a model rocket motor in my basement tonight...do i win a prize?

Vance
06-10-2004, 02:46 PM
No.

usa320
06-10-2004, 03:24 PM
I aint shocked. Look at all the other **** weve dug up in Syria and Jordan.

Tane Angle
06-10-2004, 03:43 PM
Here's the question: were the sold off as scrap or whatnot because they were being destroyed? If they were being destroyed, then that's not a problem. If they were stolen from a base and then sold, that's something else, but I don't know if I have a problem with those swords turning into plowshares. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

2Sheds_Jackson
06-10-2004, 04:51 PM
What gets me is the ease with which these things - - which entire teams of international observers were searching for for years - - just walked unnoticed out of Iraq. So Saddam managed to just throw these things in the trash to get rid of them. I wouldn't be surprised if he just had his navy dump all his WMD in the ocean (remember, he's not exacly eco-friendly)

Is this the newest argument regarding the war? rofl How much longer before the alien conspiracy argument is used? rofl

Allrighty - well how exactly is it that UNSCOM inspectors, thousands of them, who were on the ground in Iraq for a decade, didn't find these?

That's an easy one; Saddam was hiding them.

So for anybody who still clings to the notion that Saddam was honest & accounted for everything - this is yet another proof that he was hiding banned materials.

And while my suggestion that WMDs were dumped into the ocean is a bit fanciful (and meant to be) - given the scope of Saddam's deception, it is entirely possible. This proves that Saddam was decieving the UN, hiding munitions, and was able to easily conceal whatever he wanted.

So where did these come from? IMHO, they came from someplace they were being hidden. Some enterprising Iraqi decided that he could get a few bucks for this gear, so after Saddam is gone, he leases a flatbed, and drags all this gear to Jordan to get $0.25 a pound for it as scrap.

But then that begs the question - what other stuff is sitting around hidden like these were? Why have these banned rocket motors if you don't have something to deliver. They weren't planning to fill the warheads with Peanut M&Ms.

2Sheds_Jackson
06-10-2004, 04:56 PM
Here's the question: were the sold off as scrap or whatnot because they were being destroyed? If they were being destroyed, then that's not a problem. If they were stolen from a base and then sold, that's something else, but I don't know if I have a problem with those swords turning into plowshares. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

If these had been declared to UNSCOM, they would have been cataloged & destroyed by UNSCOM. If they are being destroyed now, that means that they had not previously been found by UNSCOM - which means they were not disclosed by Saddam - which means he was hiding them. But yeah, maybe they can grind them up and make soda cans out of them.

Saddam must be pissed - all the money to buy these, bribe officials to get parts, payoffs to Iraqis to keep quiet, a war to conceal them, loss of his sons, imprisionment....and some Iraqi dude just throws them on a truck and gets probably $25 for the lot. He's prolly busting out of that orange jump suit right about now.

Secret Squirrel
06-10-2004, 05:10 PM
2Sheds_Jackson, maybe you could try replying to Ronin's points? At least in my opinion, Ronin hit the nail on the head.

Mr Gently Benevolent
06-10-2004, 06:36 PM
If these had been declared to UNSCOM, they would have been cataloged & destroyed by UNSCOM.
Which brings me to part of your first post below.

The U.N. team also discovered some processing equipment with U.N. tags — which show it was being monitored — including heat exchangers, and a solid propellant mixer bowl to make missile fuel, he said. It also discovered "a large number of other processing equipment without tags, in very good condition."
Many items that were put through the destruction process were run over with diggers or had explosive charges blow neat little holes through key areas of their construction and left in designated stores or areas so when order broke down they were not hard to find.

Michael RVR
06-10-2004, 07:51 PM
2Sheds_Jackson, maybe you could try replying to Ronin's points? At least in my opinion, Ronin hit the nail on the head.

I couldn't agree more ;)