Who's Sleeping More Deeply: Europe or America?

[Calanen]

Who’s Sleeping More Deeply — Europe or America?


As Westerners doze, radical Islam continues its march.
http://pajamasmedia.com/files/2008/09/sleep.jpg
September 30, 2008 - by Bruce Bawer (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/author/brucebawer/)
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In my 2006 book While Europe Slept (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FWhile-Europe-Slept-Radical-Destroying%2Fdp%2F0385514727&tag=pajamasmedia-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), I expressed concern about the will of Europeans to defend their freedoms in the face of the continent’s Islamization. I contrasted them in this regard with Americans, for whom, I argued, freedom is a living reality for which they are willing to fight and to sacrifice.

My book came out in the midst of the Danish cartoon crisis. And during that crisis I saw things in Europe that — quite frankly — surprised and impressed me. I saw the editors of a Danish newspaper, Jyllands-Posten, stand up for freedom of expression in the face of worldwide rioting, vandalism, and murder by Muslims and contempt on the part of foolish Westerners. I saw a Danish prime minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, in defiance of the UN, the EU, and most of the “international community,” stand by that newspaper and refuse to meet with Muslim ambassadors who were out to intimidate his country and to force Sharia-like restrictions on Western liberties. I saw the people of Denmark, in overwhelming numbers, stand behind their prime minister in his refusal to yield to jihad. And I saw major newspapers across Europe reprinting the Jyllands-Posten cartoons in acts of free-speech solidarity.

I don’t mean to paint too rosy a picture. The Danish response wasn’t perfect. Not a single newspaper in Britain reprinted the cartoons. And both the Swedish and Norwegian governments provided textbook cases of cowering dhimmitude. But none of that was really a surprise. What did surprise, and disappoint, me was the American political and media establishment. Both Bill Clinton and George W. Bush condemned the Jyllands-Posten cartoons out of hand. The State Department denounced them too, and only reversed itself after getting an earful from the Danish government, one of its few allies in Iraq. In the entire United States of America, exactly one major newspaper, the Philadelphia Inquirer, reprinted the cartoons. And while the major broadcast networks, as well as CNN, Fox News, and MSNBC, reported extensively on the cartoon riots, none of them ever showed the cartoons at all.

A big part of the reason for this dismaying American response to the cartoon affair is, of course, that Islamization hasn’t progressed as far in America as in Europe, and there’s consequently an incredible level of ignorance in America both about what’s really going on in Europe and about the very nature of Islam. In the current presidential campaign, only a small portion of the electorate seems to think that the war with jihadist Islam is a major issue. The one candidate who understood best what we’re up against, and who took it most seriously, Rudy Giuliani, was ridiculed across the political spectrum for being obsessed with 9/11 — as if the events of that day had been some kind of fluke or accident that has virtually no meaning for us today.

In depressing numbers, in short, Americans seem not to grasp the lessons of 9/11 — which should hardly be a surprise, considering how many journalists and politicians keep repeating that the terrorists are betraying a great and peaceful religion, that jihad means doing good works, and so on. A while back, in response to rumors that Barack Obama is a closet Muslim, New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof argued that it would be a matter of utter indifference (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/opinion/09kristof.html?ex=1362718800&en=90b821a5d81b7e98&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all) if the president of the United States were a Muslim.

Of the hundreds of people who commented on this article on the Times website, the overwhelming majority applauded Kristof for his extraordinary courage in standing up to Islamophobia. Only a tiny handful of readers noted that there are, in fact, good reasons for free people to be concerned about the possibility of a U.S. president with a devout commitment to Islamic theology and law. The American media that do report honestly on the less attractive truths about Islam, moreover, tend to be media that people are encouraged to look down upon.

Make no mistake: if Europeans are, on average, more aware than Americans of the realities of Islam, it’s no thanks to their media but rather because they can see with their own eyes what’s going on around them. Yet many of them feel cowed — not only by Muslims but by politically correct politicians and media — into keeping their opinions to themselves, and feel powerless to prevent what now seems to many of them, in any event, inevitable. In other words, fatalism has taken hold.

In While Europe Slept I also contrasted European and American approaches to immigration. Ever since the Muslim influx began some decades ago, European countries have encouraged the newcomers to retain their cultural identity, to live apart from mainstream society, and to become clients of the welfare state. America, by contrast, has traditionally expected immigrants to learn English, to get a job, and to obey the law, and if they do so they’re every bit as American as anyone else. I didn’t argue in While Europe Slept that America was invulnerable to Islamization, but I did suggest that — thanks to this very dramatic difference both in the general public’s attitudes toward immigrants and in government immigration policy — America stood a far better chance than Europe did of seeing Muslim newcomers turn into loyal citizens rather than enemies within. I think I had a valid point there, though if I were writing the book today I’d probably be somewhat less sanguine about America’s ability to integrate absolutely everyone into its melting pot. I might also be less sanguine, I’m afraid, about the endurance of Americans’ love of freedom in an age of poisonous multicultural relativism.

I do feel, however, that there’s one very important difference between America and Europe when it comes to resisting cultural jihad, and that is this: that in America, a large proportion of the people who recognize the threat of Islam and who are determined to resist it are consciously fighting for freedom — for, that is, the principles articulated in the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and Bill of Rights. In many parts of Western Europe, this kind of certainty and unanimity about freedom — simple freedom — as a first principle can be discouragingly hard to come by.

The blogger Frank Martin has written about a teenage tour guide at a World War II battlefield in the Netherlands who told him that the Allied soldiers who fell there had been “fighting for bridges, how silly that they would all fight for something like that.” Somebody like that boy, who didn’t grasp that those soldiers had died for the very freedom that he had taken for granted his whole life, is incapable of standing up for freedom against Islamofascism. Yes, there are Europeans who realize that the opposite of Islam is indeed human freedom. But in Europe, with its checkered history of fascism and socialism, there are also all too many people on the right who are mounting the barricades in the name not of freedom but of ethnic identity, cultural tradition, or religion, and all too many on the left whose cri de coeur is not individual liberty but the welfare state.

Meanwhile Europe’s cultural elites are dominated by people who seem likely to continue to smile upon Islamization right up till the moment they’re stoned to death. At a recent Norwegian conference on integration, the Swedish government representative was asked: “Is Swedish culture worth preserving?” “Well,” she replied dismissively, “what is Swedish culture?” To people like that, European culture is a void waiting to be filled with something, and that something might as well be Islam. Granted, things aren’t quite that bad in the U.S. — not even at the New York Times. Yet to an extraordinary extent, the political and cultural elites on both sides of the Atlantic are in sync in their denial of the reality we’re up against.

This was driven home to me a few months ago when I took part in a day-long conference in Washington, D.C., about the America/Europe relationship. Nearly all the participants and audience members, I gathered, were Americans or Europeans who worked in the diplomatic corps. The day was crammed with panel discussions, and from early morning until late in the afternoon we talked about nothing but America and Europe. Yet aside from me, only one other person even mentioned Islam. And he did so in the most indirect way, as if he were bringing up something indelicate. Everybody present seemed to share an unspoken understanding that this subject was off limits. Indeed, pretty much everybody seemed to agree that Europe is doing great — that it’s moving from strength to strength — and that America should be more like it in every way.

How I even got invited to such a conference I have no idea. In any case, everything I said was dismissed out of hand. One genial fellow who seemed desperate to correct my folly and bring me into the tent came up to me after my talk and said, almost pleadingly, “But don’t you think that the real problem is not Islam but Islamophobia?” And on the panel that followed my talk, a retired diplomat with decades of experience (and a masterly command of the art of condescension) mentioned in a tone of both wonder and whimsy that I wasn’t alone in my peculiar affliction; even Walter Laqueur — the distinguished octogenarian historian of Europe whom the retired diplomat, as his tone made clear, had once, but no longer, held in high esteem — had written a book making the same bizarre arguments I was making! But neither this retired diplomat nor anyone else was willing to entertain the possibility that if both Laqueur and I, and many others, had made certain arguments, there might actually be something in them; no, it was as if, in their eyes, we had all simply been bitten by some exotic bug or contracted some mysterious new infection or had giant alien pods placed under our beds while we were sleeping.

Among those who are considered experts on Europe, or on transatlantic relations, that patrician diplomat’s attitude is ubiquitous. Tony Judt, in Postwar (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPostwar-History-Europe-Since-1945%2Fdp%2F1594200653&tag=pajamasmedia-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), his acclaimed 2005 book on Europe since 1945, ****ounced the continent in magnificent health and all but ignored Islam. Timothy Garton Ash, in his 2004 book Free World (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FFree-World-America-Europe-Surprising%2Fdp%2F1400062195&tag=pajamasmedia-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325), did the same, only pausing briefly on pages 197 and 198 to admit parenthetically that addressing Europe’s Islamization is “the single most urgent task of European domestic politics in the next decade” — after which he amazingly returned to pretending, as he had on the preceding 196 pages, that Europe’s most urgent tasks lie elsewhere. Meanwhile one book after another on the America-Europe relationship has contended that it’s America that’s the problem — that America is out of step with the world and needs to get back into line, ****to. In the title of Clyde Prestowitz’s 2005 book, America is a “rogue nation (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FRogue-Nation-American-Unilateralism-Intentions%2Fdp%2F0465062792&tag=pajamasmedia-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)” because it refuses to go along and get along with the rest of the planet under the wise auspices of the UN. I don’t know exactly how to characterize or understand this mass self-deception, this determination to cling to an illusion of the West in which the ongoing Islamization of Europe simply is not a factor; it would appear to be rooted partly in confusion, partly in cowardice, partly in careerism — and partly, I think, in a perhaps not entirely conscious conviction that some truths are just too sensational to speak without sounding hysterical, too repulsive to be honest about without sounding (to some ears) vulgar and bigoted, and too challenging to face without being utterly overwhelmed by the scale and the horror of it all.

What happens to the West will depend, in large part, on what happens to this pervasive self-denial and to those men and women of power and influence who cling to it as if to a life raft in a raging sea. Will Europeans who have faced the facts manage to gain power and turn things around before Europe passes the point of no return in its gradual surrender to Sharia? Will the European elites collaborate to realize Nicolas Sarkozy’s dark dream of a Mediterranean Union and develop it in the same ominous way in which the EU itself was developed, steadily compromising individual freedom and representative democracy — and leaving America increasingly out in the cold? Or will the next president of the U.S. be someone who is every bit as eager to appease Islam as the archbishop of Canterbury, resulting in a strong transatlantic alliance devoted not to the joint preservation of freedom but to the joint pursuit of dhimmitude? I’m sorry to say that a year or so ago, when it looked as if the major-party presidential candidates would be Rudy Giuliani and Hillary Clinton — the former of whom obviously gets it, and the latter of whom, I suspect, does so as well — I was considerably more hopeful on this score than I am now.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/who%e2%80%99s-sleeping-more-deeply-%e2%80%94-europe-or-america/

[wildcat]

I would say Europe been sleeping more deeply, they still asleep at the wheel.

[Buffalo_soldier]

Europe is becoming Eurabia.

It's almost at a point where 90% of European nations are muslim. It's so scary.

[wildcat]

Europe is becoming Eurabia.

It's almost at a point where 90% of European nations are muslim. It's so scary.
Do you live in Europe?

[domokun]

Europe is becoming Eurabia.

It's almost at a point where 90% of European nations are muslim. It's so scary.

€urope is still far from islam ran barbarian society. When first country will be having serious trouble with islamist scum, public will wake up. But getting to that point will take time.

Good article Calanen, thanks for posting.

[teoretikern]

Meanwhile Europe’s cultural elites are dominated by people who seem likely to continue to smile upon Islamization right up till the moment they’re stoned to death. At a recent Norwegian conference on integration, the Swedish government representative was asked: “Is Swedish culture worth preserving?” “Well,” she replied dismissively, “what is Swedish culture?” To people like that, European culture is a void waiting to be filled with something, and that something might as well be Islam. Granted, things aren’t quite that bad in the U.S. — not even at the New York Times. Yet to an extraordinary extent, the political and cultural elites on both sides of the Atlantic are in sync in their denial of the reality we’re up against.

The Quraan says very clearly in Sura 9:28 that those who worship anything/anyone else than Allah are "unclean". The Quraan also says that one of the worst crimes you can commit is being gay. Not to mention that a muslim whore and a polytheist have the same status. I have the Quraan in front of me. But it does not exist any debate about this in Sweden. Mostly because what I think is the fact that 30% of all journalists in Sweden vote communistic; and then there also are socialdemocrats. Instead there is always discussion that in the end state that there exists no such ting as swedish culture, there always exist other cultures. The more far away they originated from Sweden, the better. Swedish culture is an empty space, filled with nothing.

Instead it is christianity that is in the leftists gun sight. You can in media pour loads of vomit on christianity and nothing happens. If you say anything about muslims, you are done. I am not a christian but the discrimination is remarcable. The left says it wants to abandon religion, like in the Paris Commune 1871, but leftists I speak with on swedish forums are not at all very eager to wipe away islam. Instead, they see it as a form of prosecution to touch this exotic religion that enriches our society. Enriches in exactly what way I have never heard.

[Gunbird]

Europe is becoming Eurabia.

It's almost at a point where 90% of European nations are muslim. It's so scary.

Throwing out retarded numbers like 90% suggests you're getting some good quality sleep yourself.

[angry cow]

Assuming historical trends in immigration, European Muslim populations will level off around 14% of the EU population, about the same as the percentage of African Americans in the US. The EU is just scared because even though they keep giving Turkey the finger on accession, they still aren't going to get to keep being a white boys club. No group which has ever engaged in cultural isolationism has ever survived. Either the walls come down, or their societies do.

[Laworkerbee]

Instead it is christianity that is in the leftists gun sight. You can in media pour loads of vomit on christianity and nothing happens.

Same thing here in the states, I don't identify myself as a Christian or even religious but the bashing they often receive disgusts me.

[Buffalo_soldier]

Throwing out retarded numbers like 90% suggests you're getting some good quality sleep yourself.

We can't disguise the truth

Muslims are taking over Europe day by day.

[gaz]

Europe is becoming Eurabia.

It's almost at a point where 90% of European nations are muslim. It's so scary.

Which orifice did you pull that gem of a statistic from?

[Big Lebowski]

I saw a Danish prime minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, in defiance of the UN, the EU, and most of the “international community,” stand by that newspaper and refuse to meet with Muslim ambassadors who were out to intimidate his country and to force Sharia-like restrictions on Western liberties.
What a load of bull****...

The prime minister dident "stand by" the newspaper... he simply stated the laws of this country. His refusal to meet with the ambassadors was later blamed for one of the main reasons why it got so out of hand in the first place.

[The Balkan]

If you're asking who's letting themselves be bullied by domestic Islamic radicals more, then Europe.

[Calanen]

The Quraan says very clearly in Sura 9:28 that those who worship anything/anyone else than Allah are "unclean". The Quraan also says that one of the worst crimes you can commit is being gay. Not to mention that a muslim whore and a polytheist have the same status. I have the Quraan in front of me. But it does not exist any debate about this in Sweden. Mostly because what I think is the fact that 30% of all journalists in Sweden vote communistic; and then there also are socialdemocrats. Instead there is always discussion that in the end state that there exists no such ting as swedish culture, there always exist other cultures. The more far away they originated from Sweden, the better. Swedish culture is an empty space, filled with nothing.

Most people do not know what the Koran says, but the Muslims sure do. I like many people thought, oh it's just Bin Ladin and his cronies we have to worry about etc etc. But the more that happened, the more I thought - there is a logical disconnect here - that cannot be right. So I read the Koran, I read the Hadith, and I understand now exactly what is going on. This is a war of attrition, a war of stealth, a war of deception. Europe needs to say - what we stand for is good, it's about freedom, and tolerance - and our own uniqueness. We do not want our cities to be like Saudi Arabia, and we have a right to say that, a RIGHT and DUTY to say that.

As to hating Sweden and its own culture - that is just part of the culture of self-hate that is pervaded all of the West as 'trendy'. Everybody forgets that it was the local culture which made Sweden and other western states a desirable place to move to - and yet the culture the immigrants are fleeing from is somehow seen as preferable and desirable.



Instead it is christianity that is in the leftists gun sight. You can in media pour loads of vomit on christianity and nothing happens. If you say anything about muslims, you are done. I am not a christian but the discrimination is remarcable. The left says it wants to abandon religion, like in the Paris Commune 1871, but leftists I speak with on swedish forums are not at all very eager to wipe away islam. Instead, they see it as a form of prosecution to touch this exotic religion that enriches our society. Enriches in exactly what way I have never heard

My own view is that religions are bunk, but that they are necessary because the idea of dying and that being the end is too scary for most people to handle or cope with. So religion assists them to get through the day, and that is fine. Worshipping whatever I could care less about - however - Islam is a political and legal system that is tolerant of nothing and seeks to subsume, dominate all around it.

The Christian belief systems however are important for Christian nations to hold onto - they are part of their heritage, as with the Jewish traditions of some Western states as well (notably the USA). Both Judaism and Christianity are religions of peace, properly construed. Islam is not, and never will be.

[Calanen]

What a load of bull****...

The prime minister dident "stand by" the newspaper... he simply stated the laws of this country. His refusal to meet with the ambassadors was later blamed for one of the main reasons why it got so out of hand in the first place.

Yes, the howling bloodthirsty mobs would have returned to their homes as soon as the Imam took the microphone and said 'Hey guys, its ok, go home - the Danish PM met our Ambassadors today!'

The Danish PM was right to not meet with the Muslim Ambassadors. That the heads of sovereign nations would have something so unimportant to talk about - a cartoon in a newspaper. When the Arab press, every day, every damn day, has cartoons of the 'ebil joos' and has for years. But the jews do what sane people do - let their feelings be known and move on. But the Islamic world is so brittle and self-righteous that when it's them...they have the right to have trade embargoes, demand punishment, make death threats, riot and burn things.

That is not how civilised people behave, and such behaviour should be condemned, not placated.

[Big Lebowski]

Yes, the howling bloodthirsty mobs would have returned to their homes as soon as the Imam took the microphone and said 'Hey guys, its ok, go home - the Danish PM met our Ambassadors today!'
The point is, if you missed it, that the mobs would never have existed if the cartoon issue would have stayed domestic. You do realize the cartoons where released here in Denmark almost a year before it became an international crisis right?

...That is not how civilised people behave, and such behaviour should be condemned, not placated.
And it was condemned... whats your point`?

[Mu-Meson]

Sadly in Canada, we are very much asleep too. Indeed, we barely roused ourselves during the Cartoon Intifada, and only then to prosecute the only magazine to reprint the cartoons.

What is Swedish culture? What is Canadian culture? These questions are a direct result of the degradation of the respective countries education, and cultural climate. In multiculturalism, every other culture is superior to yours, so why bother learning about it.

[Calanen]

The point is, if you missed it, that the mobs would never have existed if the cartoon issue would have stayed domestic. You do realize the cartoons where released here in Denmark almost a year before it became an international crisis right?

Yes I do. And why was that - it was because a group of imams took the cartoons and did a travelling roadshow, together with some other cartoons of dubious origins that were not in the paper - throughout the Middle East to call people to jihad about it.

It was an excuse to wage the wider war against the West.

An 'international crisis' - how ludicrous. It was a cartoon. A drawing in a paper.




And it was condemned... whats your point`?


That we should never reward such behaviour by placating it and seeking to appease as a result of such actions. Also, that only one group in society goes berserk at the slightest perceived provocation.

[teoretikern]

Same thing here in the states, I don't identify myself as a Christian or even religious but the bashing they often receive disgusts me.

This photo is one amnong others from a famous vernissage, the disciples as transvestites:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pI2VQ85q_5g/SDehEseKHDI/AAAAAAAAAvo/A8r4X-_K_FI/s1600/Ecce%2BHomo_nattvarden.jpg

The vernissage got really political when it was shown in the parlament, and then in one of the most famous and biggest churches in Sweden.
I mailed the performer and asked her if it is time to do the same to Mohammed, but the reply was not very friendly.

[Big Lebowski]

Yes I do. And why was that - it was because a group of imams took the cartoons and did a travelling roadshow, together with some other cartoons of dubious origins that were not in the paper - throughout the Middle East to call people to jihad about it.
Again the point is that if the problem would have been solved here in Denmark, by among other things explaining the situation to the ambassadors insted of letting some freakshow imams do the talking, then it might never have evolved into what it became.

It was an excuse to wage the wider war against the West.

sorry, but I still dont buy your ninja jihad war...

An 'international crisis' - how ludicrous. It was a cartoon. A drawing in a paper.
Well, it became very much a 'international crisis' for Denmark. Even if it was just a "A drawing in a paper".

[Marshall_Nord]

Same thing here in the states, I don't identify myself as a Christian or even religious but the bashing they often receive disgusts me.

I’m always amused by the American Left constantly attacking Christianity and defending Islam. Don’t they realize that if America was an Islamic Republic most of the “Leftists” and their ilk would be the first to go in the great moral purge? rofl

[teoretikern]

I’m always amused by the American Left constantly attacking Christianity and defending Islam. Don’t they realize that if America was an Islamic Republic most of the “Leftists” and their ilk would be the first to go in the great moral purge? rofl

Oh yes, "non belivers" get nothing but contempt in the Quraan. I guess this wierd situation has developed when christianity is seem by the left as a bourgeoisie lifestyle, while islam is the culture of the poor, poor people that has been supressed by capitalistic countries. Swedens next social democratic, prime minister?

http://hodja.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/mona_sahlin.jpg

[Berk]

i'm european, i sleep around 6 hours per night what is fine for me but for eg my bro needs 8 hours.

[Dr_Fünke]

Both Judaism and Christianity are religions of peace, properly construed.


Are you serious?

[Calanen]

Again the point is that if the problem would have been solved here in Denmark, by among other things explaining the situation to the ambassadors insted of letting some freakshow imams do the talking, then it might never have evolved into what it became.


Do you think that the imams care what Denmark does, or says? They had their travelling Danish roadshow to make the 'crisis' - if it was a crisis..it was more a tantrum from adults behaving like little kids. So you wanted the Danish government, as soon as the cartoons came out, to predict that the imams would travel the Middle East inflaming hatred, and prior to that - met with the Ambassadors for Islamic countries. That doesnt make any sense. It only become of interest to the government and of concern once the imams had done the talking, not before.

You are an infidel - they dont care what you explain, or what you believe. All that needed to be said was:

Denmark is a free country with a free press. You do what you like in your country, we do what we like in ours. So get over it.

[Calanen]

Are you serious?

Im not going to derail the thread.

[Calanen]

sorry, but I still dont buy your ninja jihad war...



Really - Denmark is one of the worst places. I can't make you care if you don't. You cannot wake someone pretending to be asleep.

Read this:

http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/WP%202006-35%20til%20web.pdf

they aren't 'ninjas'. If you disagree, say why you do. Sarcastic remarks are just lowbrow, and highlight your lack of anything meaningful to say.

You just dont get it - they want you dead. They want your society and culture gone, your legal system gone, you gone. Are you going to let this happen? Do you even care?

Or this:

http://fredalanmedforth.blogspot.com/2008/06/dnemark-kirche-zahlt-schutzgeld-muslime.html

Where natives in Greenland have to hire local muslims to act as bodyguards to stop other muslims beating up people going to church. Fantastic.

Norwegian doc on Jihad in Europe:

http://www.mil.no/multimedia/archive/00039/Jihad_in_Europe_39602a.pdf

Report on Federation of Islamic Organizations in Europe:

http://www.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/FeaturedDocs/nefafioereport1008.pdf

Document setting out the goals of the Muslim Brotherhood in the US.

http://www.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/HLF/Akram_GeneralStrategicGoal.pdf

How much more has to happen before you realise that there is a jihad, and it is heading your way.

[Big Lebowski]

Lets just say I disagree. Europe got an immigration problem and not a "secret jihad" as you put it.

But I wont discuss it with you further cause i just cant take what you write seriouse.

[Holycrusader]

Lets just say I disagree. Europe got an immigration problem and not a "secret jihad" as you put it.

But I wont discuss it with you further cause i just cant take what you write seriouse.

* 2
Somehow I do not see any jihadist on the streets of Warsaw...

[Thom]

Sorry I couldn't get through that article as my eyes rolled out of their sockets at all the american exceptionalism, anecdotes and vague suppositions whilst berating a liberal elite.

Really i'm not sure how anyone can read that without keeping a straight face.

There are real problems that countries in Europe and also America faces, but to cloud it all in generalisations of entire cultures, religions and countries does no one any good and infact hinders real solutions and debate.

[Lee]

both are sleeping deeply in their own way. thats why I welcome an economic meltdown. when people get hungry their minds become clear and they wake up. I can't think of anything else that will wake them up.

[Thom]

both are sleeping deeply in their own way. thats why I welcome an economic meltdown. when people get hungry their minds become clear and they wake up. I can't think of anything else that will wake them up.

On the contrary, in hard times people turn to radical demagogues that promise them change, be it left or right. I don't think I need to give examples as they're fairly obvious.

[Calanen]

There are real problems that countries in Europe and also America faces, but to cloud it all in generalisations of entire cultures, religions and countries does no one any good and infact hinders real solutions and debate.

The only culture we have a problem with is jihadi islam. The only one.

Read that a few times. Hindus, Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists are not blowing up the subways in London and Spain. They are not part of societies that seek to destroy your culture, legal system, and an entrenched doctrine of warfare against unbelievers.

To say 'oh its all cultures, we all have good and bad..let's be friends etc..' is just to ignore the blatantly obvious examples, day after day...more are arrested planning to poison the water supply, divert money to Islamic Jihad, or blow something up. And again and again..they are written off as mindless insane radicals, a tiny minority of extremists. How many more examples do you need? How much more of your culture needs to be destroyed, more of your people killed, before you wake up?

And they are all from one culture - the Islamic culture. So that is the problem. The riots, the protests, the Saudi style ghettos cropping up in every major European city while your welfare system is bankrupted. That is the problem that has to be addressed now. It may already be too late.

Immigration is not the problem - you can bring anyone you want in and there wont be a problem - except - with radical Islam. There are only moderate muslims, there is no moderate islam.

[SOG]

The left says it wants to abandon religion, like in the Paris Commune 1871, but leftists I speak with on swedish forums are not at all very eager to wipe away islam. Instead, they see it as a form of prosecution to touch this exotic religion that enriches our society. Enriches in exactly what way I have never heard.

The left thinks ANY religion but the local religion is better, more enlightening and produces people as such. How many little religions and cult rituals combined with drugs did the Beatles practice in their decades long search for "self enlightenment"? :roll: And they think Christians are nutty...


The Quraan also says that one of the worst crimes you can commit is being gay.
Have you seen how they dress? It is a crime! Against manhood! I mean geez, did you see the pants Macs owns?


The only culture we have a problem with is jihadi islam. The only one.
That's food for thought. I'll think about that one some more. We have had minor cultural issues with others in the past. I would say Jihad is the only current one and one of the largest at that?

[Bia]

[B]Who’s Sleeping More Deeply — Europe or AmericaI sleep very well. In fact I wake up in exact same position as when I go down. Been told before... I dont stir at all.

:P

[SOG]

I sleep very well. In fact I wake up in exact same position as when I go down. Been told before... I dont stir at all.

:P

OH COME ON!

I'm just going to shut up and keep my pervy mouth shut...

[Vorian]

Around 90-95% of people living in a economicaly viable society, having a job and a family will just live their life without caring what an ancient book dictates.
That's exactly what Christians did. You hardly see people fasting 40 days or burn witches do you?

That's where we should aim imo. A man with no future will find it easier to blow himself up than a family-man with a nice job and a house with a small garden.

[joka]

That is the problem that has to be addressed now.

And how exactly would you address this problem? What do you think the alternatives here are?

[Ariha]

Around 90-95% of people living in a economicaly viable society, having a job and a family will just live their life without caring what an ancient book dictates.
That's exactly what Christians did. You hardly see people fasting 40 days or burn witches do you?

That's where we should aim imo. A man with no future will find it easier to blow himself up than a family-man with a nice job and a house with a small garden.

That´s why the 9/11 terrorists were desperately poor, for example...

[PVJ]

Around 90-95% of people living in a economicaly viable society, having a job and a family will just live their life without caring what an ancient book dictates.
That's exactly what Christians did. You hardly see people fasting 40 days or burn witches do you?

That's where we should aim imo. A man with no future will find it easier to blow himself up than a family-man with a nice job and a house with a small garden.

The exact reason Europe and North America have become so successful is because they took away all power and control that religion has on a country. You will never have a middle east as successful as Europe as long as religion has such huge influence on society and the country. The whole give them jobs thing doesnt work. The radical fvckers who want to destroy western culture and civilization and replace it with a global Islamic state, are the ones who don't want jobs or success, they prefer praying 78 times a day, and preaching to people how the Jews and Christians are responsible for every bad thing in history. In Britain, there are radicals preaching the destruction of Britain and western society on fvcking street corners, and theres Muslims who have jobs, families, and little gardens who stand there and listen to them and support them.

[Calanen]

In Britain, there are radicals preaching the destruction of Britain and western society on fvcking street corners, and theres Muslims who have jobs, families, and little gardens who stand there and listen to them and support them.


Even better than that, we pay them to do so - they get full welfare, because actually being an Imam all day every day is not working. They can also have 6 kids, or more, which we also pay for. While they convince people to destroy us. Good work. We pay the salary of the people who promote our destruction.

[Calanen]

Around 90-95% of people living in a economicaly viable society, having a job and a family will just live their life without caring what an ancient book dictates.

Rubbish. The 'ancient book' is the CONSTITUTION for Saudi Arabia. The Constitution - the basis for all laws. The legal system is sharia. There are police that enforce the law.


That's exactly what Christians did. You hardly see people fasting 40 days or burn witches do you?

Why is it important what Christians did or didnt do, or what anyone else did or didnt do?


That's where we should aim imo. A man with no future will find it easier to blow himself up than a family-man with a nice job and a house with a small garden.

Fantastic. Osama Bin Ladin has billions. So do the Saudi extended Royal familes. If it is all just about money - why are the rich Saudi royals the main promoters worldwide of Wahhabi islam. Why is 200 billion spent on promoting Wahhabi islam preaching.

Why if people are moving to the UK, where they have welfare that they didnt get in their own country - still part of home grown terror plots if it is all about money? Why if Mohammed Atta was from a well off family of Egyptian lawyers - did he lead an AQ cell to crash planes into the WTC and the Pentagon? Many of those he led were educated people, graduate students even. What about the Doctors Jihad- when medically trained doctors in the UK were part of the Glasgow Airport attack and the attempt to blow up the Ministry of Sound nightclub. Doctors in the UK might not be Bill Gates, but they are certainly not poverty stricken. It is an article of faith. Just like George Bush is a christian, plenty of other people with money are muslims, and some of them are radical muslims.



LONDON: Experts have been surprised to discover that the typical recruit to Al Qaeda is Western educated and has a wealthy, professional background.
The typical recruit to Al Qaeda, the terrorist organisation, is upper middle class, has been educated in the West and is from a professional background, according to a new study.
An analysis of 500 members of Osama Bin Laden’s organisation has revealed that the majority had been in further education and were from relatively affluent families.
The recruits also tended to come from the wealthier Arab countries.
Dr Marc Sageman, a forensic psychiatrist who conducted the study, said he assumed it would find that most Al Qaeda recruits were poor and ill-educated.
“The common stereotype is that terrorism is a product of poor, desperate, naive, single young men from Third World countries, vulnerable to brainwashing and recruitment into terror,” he said.
However, his study showed that three-quarters of the Al Qaeda members were from upper middle-class homes and many were married with children; 60 were college educated, often in Europe or the United States.
Some, like Omar Sheikh, the British-born terrorist, were educated at fee-paying schools before heading for Afghanistan, Bosnia or Chechnya


http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/15303_Middle_Class_Al_Qaeda

Islam the religion - spends 100s of paragraphs detailing how the faithful must have war against the unbelievers. It does not take someone to be poor to understand that. And the Islamic religion is followed by 60 sovereign nations on this planet. It has nothing to do with poverty - in fact the better educated people will understand, from what they learn in the madrassas - that they must convert Dar-al-harb in Dar-Al-Islam. And what do you think House of War means - maybe that there has to be a little fighting?

And there are tremendous rewards for mujahadeens. 72 virgins and all of that. The concept of defensive jihad to spread the word is ridiculous. It would mean that the faithful had to sit in a little patch of the world and pray that the infidels will attack them, so then they can fight back and convert them to Islam. That is not what the Koran says, it says, slay the unbelievers wherever you find them. And wherever they find them right now - is in the West.

And helpfully, we have let loads of people who believe this very thing, into the West, and let them freeload on welfare, and have 6-10 kids. Given them a place to live, money, a platform to spew their venomous rhetoric - even helped them set up bs sharia courts of injustice. All to help destroy our own cultures and society. They must really laugh at our stupidity.

[Fargin]

A reasonable debate is drowned by barking mad dogs on either side of the fence. In Denmark the radicals are preaching the destruction of Denmark by the EU, immigrants and refugees, other radicals are preaching sharia, polygamy and religious persecution.

The moderate majority are reasonable silent, focus on their daily lives and families. A loud and shrill minorty to is trying to divide good people, by trying to create confrontations, where there is none. The cartoon crisis is a perfect example of how radical elements will cooperate to escalate nonissues. The danish political climate will probably improve quite a bit with a new Prime Minister in within a year or so.

[Dr_Fünke]

Im not going to derail the thread.

That sounds more like a reluctance to stand behind your claim, rather than being mindful not to derail.

I've been lurking on this forum for a while now and I've noticed that you, quite rightly imo, take issue with anyone who drops the 'Misinterpretation/no it's actually a religion of peace' bomb when it comes to Islam, yet here you are doing the very same thing:

"Both Judaism and Christianity are religions of peace, properly construed"


Why is that you don't have to adhere to the same rules you apply to everybody else?

[Calanen]

That sounds more like a reluctance to stand behind your claim, rather than being mindful not to derail.

I've been lurking on this forum for a while now and I've noticed that you, quite rightly imo, take issue with anyone who drops the 'Misinterpretation/no it's actually a religion of peace' bomb when it comes to Islam, yet here you are doing the very same thing:

"Both Judaism and Christianity are religions of peace, properly construed"


Why is that you don't have to adhere to the same rules you apply to everybody else?

If you want to create a thread about the evils of Christianity or Judaism, go right ahead. I may or may not post in it.

But this isn't the thread.

[PeterRJG]

If you want to create a thread about the evils of Christianity or Judaism, go right ahead. I may or may not post in it.

But this isn't the thread.

It's not what the guy you responded to asked. Have a crack at answering his question.

[Atlantic Friend]

In my 2006 book While Europe Slept, I expressed concern about the will of Europeans to defend their freedoms in the face of the continent’s Islamization. I contrasted them in this regard with Americans, for whom, I argued, freedom is a living reality for which they are willing to fight and to sacrifice.

My book came out in the midst of the Danish cartoon crisis. And during that crisis I saw things in Europe that — quite frankly — surprised and impressed me.

In other words, I wrote a book about a popular buzzword/concept, and now that new facts have proven my views then to be a tad two-dimensional, I'm going to write articles stating that while I was not exactly right at the time, there's still a possibility I may not be exactly wrong either, unless new facts come up, you know how pesky these can be.

[Calanen]

And how exactly would you address this problem? What do you think the alternatives here are?

We first need to start valuing ourselves. We love to say, oh the West is so about hate - we are such haters, racists, islamophobes, with a crap culture that is really bad. Yes we are haters - you know who we hate the most - ourselves! And it is really cool to hate ourselves.

Hate the government that provides us with a better management of everything compared to other places in the world. We love to bitch about how foolish and corrupt our governments are - have you compared the economic management of the EU with the nations of Africa, or the Middle East or even in Asia?

As to human rights - we love to say how racist and intolerant we are - but we dont know what racism and intolerance means. Try and be a white lawyer that gets a license to practice in Japan or China, even if you speak Chinese and went to a Chinese or Japanese university. it is not possible - why - you are the wrong race! Yet we say, oh we are such racist westerners. Try to be a christian that hands out a bible in Riyadh. Try to be a white lawyer in Indonesia. You cannot do it.

We also like to say how bad our courts are, and even how enlightened sharia is! The common law system is a Rolls Royce system. It is amazingly fair, and just - the only downside is - that it costs money to run a Rolls Royce and many cant afford it. But we run that down too.

We need to stop hating ourselves. We need to know what WE stand for (and its not some limp wristed, 'oh all cultures are equally good, especially those really special exotic enlightened cultures like Sharia that immigrants are fleeing from.) What do we stand for, what do we want. What do we believe.

That is the only thing to rally around. For the moment, we just have a whole group of brainwashed youth painting everyone as racist and Islamophobe for daring to question the multicultural fascists or wanting to limit immigration.

[joka]

We first need to start valuing ourselves. We love to say, oh the West is so about hate - we are such haters, racists, islamophobes, with a crap culture that is really bad. Yes we are haters - you know who we hate the most - ourselves! And it is really cool to hate ourselves.

Hate the government that provides us with a better management of everything compared to other places in the world. We love to bitch about how foolish and corrupt our governments are - have you compared the economic management of the EU with the nations of Africa, or the Middle East or even in Asia?

As to human rights - we love to say how racist and intolerant we are - but we dont know what racism and intolerance means. Try and be a white lawyer that gets a license to practice in Japan or China, even if you speak Chinese and went to a Chinese or Japanese university. it is not possible - why - you are the wrong race! Yet we say, oh we are such racist westerners. Try to be a christian that hands out a bible in Riyadh. Try to be a white lawyer in Indonesia. You cannot do it.

We also like to say how bad our courts are, and even how enlightened sharia is! The common law system is a Rolls Royce system. It is amazingly fair, and just - the only downside is - that it costs money to run a Rolls Royce and many cant afford it. But we run that down too.

We need to stop hating ourselves. We need to know what WE stand for (and its not some limp wristed, 'oh all cultures are equally good, especially those really special exotic enlightened cultures like Sharia that immigrants are fleeing from.) What do we stand for, what do we want. What do we believe.

That is the only thing to rally around. For the moment, we just have a whole group of brainwashed youth painting everyone as racist and Islamophobe for daring to question the multicultural fascists or wanting to limit immigration.

Your depiction of European self evaluation sounds completely alien to me and utterly out of touch with reality. Furthermore I can't figure out what China, Japan and Indonesia has to do with the issue at hand.

You really didn't answer my question at all. Let's assume we really have a crisis on our hands, a growing segment of society displays antisocial behaviour and a reluctance to integrate in to society. How do we address this? What are our alternatives?

The way I see it there's exactly two outcomes to this, either we manage to live together with Muslims in reasonable harmony, or we don't. You seem determined that the latter is already true, without giving much thought about what road this puts us on. Let's assume Muslims really can't live in Europe, their lifestyle is completely incompatible with ours and most of them want to destroy us. What do we do next?

[Calanen]

Your depiction of European self evaluation sounds completely alien to me and utterly out of touch with reality. Furthermore I can't figure out what China, Japan and Indonesia has to do with the issue at hand.



Not much good at lateral thinking are you?

Is it? It doesnt seem alien to me. All policies and the implementation of policies are bound in the flawed reasoning, that everyone in the EU is intrinsically racist, intolerant, sexist, discriminators that need to be over-regulated to ensure that there is no problem with islam or anyone else. If there are jihadi elements, that is because we have not been tolerant enough to integrate them, and they are only reacting to our discrimination.

The examples of China etc demonstrate that although we think that we are racist intolerant islamaphobes, we are actually an overly tolerant society. So open minded our brains have fallen out.


You really didn't answer my question at all.

I did, you didnt like the answer.

There is no impetus to change anything if the collective consciousness is into self-flagellation about what a bunch of intolerant nazis we all are that need to be overly regulated, and how we need to further appease the most unreasonable demands of islamic immigrants. Until that idea changes, that belief changes - and people want to rally around something meaningful - like a committment to real freedom or their unique cultural heritage - than any policy you create will be meaningless. No one will follow the policy, because they dont stand for anything themselves. So the first step is - what do we stand for? Is it just multiculturalism, and appeasement of unreasonable demands? Is it unlimited immigration? Is it hating ourselves? Or is it something more than that?

Until we answer these questions - any further policies are pointless. Because there will be no commitment to implement them, given the overarching conventional wisdom is that society is to blame - the worse jihadi muslims behave.



Let's assume we really have a crisis on our hands, a growing segment of society displays antisocial behaviour and a reluctance to integrate in to society. How do we address this? What are our alternatives?




The way I see it there's exactly two outcomes to this, either we manage to live together with Muslims in reasonable harmony, or we don't.

Dont you see - its not about you. You cannot manage muslims by what you do, they choose as well. That is the fallacious reasoning, that if we just bend in the wind as much as Neville Chamberlain, the jihadi muslims will just see reason and we can all live as friends. That thought, or flawed piece of reasoning has to change. Its not about you. You can already live in harmony with anyone - its about them - and whether you are prepared to put up with their behaviour. If you are fine - if thats what you want. Islamic ghettoes with sharia courts, islam only no go areas for Police. High crimes being committed, including rapes against European women by Islamic men in which Islamic men are vastly over represented in committing, not just in Europe but in Australia as well.


You seem determined that the latter is already true, without giving much thought about what road this puts us on.

I have not put us on any road. The road has been chosen for us.




Let's assume Muslims really can't live in Europe, their lifestyle is completely incompatible with ours and most of them want to destroy us. What do we do next?


You say, that there is zero tolerance for any Islamization:

- cut off completely all Saudi financing of mosques, schools or other islamic centres;

- end sharia financing completely;

- end islamic immigration to the EU;

- squash any attempts for special demands of treatment, and chop off at the knees any request for no pigs, no cartoons, no service of alcohol.

- provide huge penalties for any enforcement of islamic law;

- ban islamic law and sharia courts from having any force of law, under arbitration laws or anything else;

- provide that any new immigrants must swear allegiance to their country above all else, and agree that they will support that country, even in warfare against other countries of the same religion;

- have conditional immigration, long term residency permits, so that if people become allah akhbar jihad proponents you can ship them back. Dont give out citizenship like complimentary candy;

- prevent ghettoisation. Prevent any shopfront signs from being in Arabic - they must be in the native countries language;

- require that all immigrants must as a condition of their citizenship;

- require that any muslims you do let in, must swear on the Koran that they

(a) accept the right of the infidel government to remain as is;

(b) they solemnly undertake not to attempt to overthrow the government or its legal system with sharia;

(c) that they accept the right of infidels to live side by side with them peacefully, indefinitely and without the call to jihad;

(d) that they are committed, to freedom, tolerance, equality of men and women and the rule of law as implemented by the host countries government;

- prevent any person from obtaining welfare for more than 2 children. The amount of welfare is capped at 2 children. If you want more than that, you are on your own;

- ensure that history is proprely taught without the special concessions granted to schools with islamic students, re not teaching the holocaust, the crusades, the history of Israel etc;

- come down like a tonne of bricks on any islamic people who promote hatred of Jewish people or deny the holocaust.

Those would do for starters.

[pekka elo]

I'm not buying this xenophobe Eurabia stuff. It sounds like it's made up by some Americans to convince themselves that they're better off than Europeans.

I'm not familiar with the situation in Central Europe or even Sweden, but I think that the EU should consider making some guidelines for member states' immigration policies.

In any case, integration is the key and forcing Islamic values into our society should not be tolerated. Europe does belong to Europeans after all.

[domokun]

You say, that there is zero tolerance for any Islamization:

- cut off completely all Saudi financing of mosques, schools or other islamic centres;

- end sharia financing completely;

- end islamic immigration to the EU;

- squash any attempts for special demands of treatment, and chop off at the knees any request for no pigs, no cartoons, no service of alcohol.

- provide huge penalties for any enforcement of islamic law;

- ban islamic law and sharia courts from having any force of law, under arbitration laws or anything else;

- provide that any new immigrants must swear allegiance to their country above all else, and agree that they will support that country, even in warfare against other countries of the same religion;

- have conditional immigration, long term residency permits, so that if people become allah akhbar jihad proponents you can ship them back. Dont give out citizenship like complimentary candy;

- prevent ghettoisation. Prevent any shopfront signs from being in Arabic - they must be in the native countries language;

- require that all immigrants must as a condition of their citizenship;

- require that any muslims you do let in, must swear on the Koran that they

(a) accept the right of the infidel government to remain as is;

(b) they solemnly undertake not to attempt to overthrow the government or its legal system with sharia;

(c) that they accept the right of infidels to live side by side with them peacefully, indefinitely and without the call to jihad;

(d) that they are committed, to freedom, tolerance, equality of men and women and the rule of law as implemented by the host countries government;

- prevent any person from obtaining welfare for more than 2 children. The amount of welfare is capped at 2 children. If you want more than that, you are on your own;

- ensure that history is proprely taught without the special concessions granted to schools with islamic students, re not teaching the holocaust, the crusades, the history of Israel etc;

- come down like a tonne of bricks on any islamic people who promote hatred of Jewish people or deny the holocaust.

Those would do for starters.

I agree with you in all points except bolded one. I'd keep social security out of islamism discussion as it isn't cause or result of islamism.

I find it highly ironic that most muslim immigrants come to west to get away from their own flawed and undemocratic systems. When they find out that west is not same as they dreamed about they become exactly same they ran away from. West should put end to political correctness as primary way to deal with minorities. We should not finance mosques or any other form of organized religion from tax money. We should not give up to any demands these islamist scum in blind fashion we seem to give up to most of their demands.

Personally I'm very offended by fact that I can't visit certain public pool on saturday mornings as it is reserved for muslim women. The reason why that is legal is fact that it used to be normal open hours but they closed it for that time and made it private event, nice way from local authorities to go around laws about equality.:fork:

And we should summarily deport all non-citizen immigrants if they are involved in financing terrorism or sending their social security benefits to relatives abroad, that money is intended for them not for their relatives. Immigrants who are citizens and doing same, execute or jail 'em.

[Dr_Fünke]

If you want to create a thread about the evils of Christianity or Judaism, go right ahead. I may or may not post in it.

But this isn't the thread.

So when anybody else excuses a religion which causes worldly suffering, they are PC-left wing-elitist-apologists, but when you do it the same standards don't apply, and the conversation doesn't have to be had as it constitutions thread derailment.


This is hilarious.

[joka]

Not much good at lateral thinking are you?

Is it? It doesnt seem alien to me. All policies and the implementation of policies are bound in the flawed reasoning, that everyone in the EU is intrinsically racist, intolerant, sexist, discriminators that need to be over-regulated to ensure that there is no problem with islam or anyone else. If there are jihadi elements, that is because we have not been tolerant enough to integrate them, and they are only reacting to our discrimination.

Yes, completely. I don't know where you get this idea that people in Europe walk around going "we're such racist bigots, we must try harder to please the righteous immigrants". Interestingly your entire argument seems to be based around this notion of appeasement and forfeiture by Europeans. Has it crossed your mind that most people do not care if some insignificant aspect of life is changed to better accommodate for the needs of all citizens?

Some of your suggestions seem reasonable, some are impossible and others would make Stalin proud. But OK, we deny Muslims entry and forbid The Muslims we already do have from doing anything Muslimish. Then what? How do you think the Muslim world would react? Would this increase our chances of living together in some sort of peaceful manner?

That's not to say certain aspects of Muslim immigration doesn't concern me, particularly this Wahhabist filth spreading in Europe aided by Saudi funds and efforts to create countries within countries by certain Muslims. I wouldn't characterize it as a huge problem as you do though.

[teoretikern]

Personally I'm very offended by fact that I can't visit certain public pool on saturday mornings as it is reserved for muslim women. The reason why that is legal is fact that it used to be normal open hours but they closed it for that time and made it private event, nice way from local authorities to go around laws about equality.:fork:.

What offends me is this: areas in sweden where immigrants form the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants face unemployment rates as high as 50%. It is very common that children to immigrants grow up in Sweden but know very poor swedish, a dilemma they face when they enter the labour market. If you don't now the language, you will face problems. But interesting is that almost half of the participants of immigrants in Swedish For Immigrants do not think the language is important. They are not interested in learning. I can read in swedish news all the time that these areas "need more resources". I can in the papers read about lectures that teach immigrant women how to bicykel with police assistance; about lectures how to teach serbian men do the dishes, muslim women to swim, etc, etc.

I also read that this situation is, after all, very "enriching", dispite that swedish immigration policy costs 40 billion SEK every year. It seams that first, Sweden has to invest a couple of billions every year, and then that these billions will give massive dividends in some form - which one is not really clear but it will happen any day now.

[domokun]

What offends me is this: areas in sweden where immigrants form the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants face unemployment rates as high as 50%. It is very common that children to immigrants grow up in Sweden but know very poor swedish, a dilemma they face when they enter the labour market. If you don't now the language, you will face problems. But interesting is that almost half of the participants of immigrants in Swedish For Immigrants do not think the language is important. They are not interested in learning. I can read in swedish news all the time that these areas "need more resources". I can in the papers read about lectures that teach immigrant women how to bicykel with police assistance; about lectures how to teach serbian men do the dishes, muslim women to swim, etc, etc.

I also read that this situation is, after all, very "enriching", dispite that swedish immigration policy costs 40 billion SEK every year. It seams that first, Sweden has to invest a couple of billions every year, and then that these billions will give massive dividends in some form - which one is not really clear but it will happen any day now.

Here on other side of gulf situation isn't as bad, yet, due to more restrictive immigration policy. There always will be cultural conflicts with immigrants, but Europe should keep it's own culture and values above immigrants culture and values, they surely have right for their own culture and traditions, but it's their own duty retain those and society has no reason to support those.

Good skill in local language should be requirement for citizenship for immigrants. I find these family unification programs very stupid, we let immigrants here because their cousins are already here. As such that isn't wise policy as we don't consider them to part of our own family, ie we have concept of nuclear family and their concept of family is different, we should stick to our own.

It's true that there will be trouble over demographic issues in Europe due to aging of population, but we should get those immigrants we need from areas that have values closer to our own. AFAIK immigrants from eastern Asia and southern America blend to society lot better than Africans or people from middle east. We should start advertising there to meet our need for immigrants as labor.

[Calanen]

I agree with you in all points except bolded one. I'd keep social security out of islamism discussion as it isn't cause or result of islamism.

Why should the public pay for anyone, europeans included, to have 6, 8 or 10 children on welfare?

[Calanen]

Some of your suggestions seem reasonable, some are impossible and others would make Stalin proud.


Stalin just killed people that got in the way.

None of the above is impossible, or even difficult. And nothing is Stalineseque - is it really that controversial to ask people who are going to be citizens of your country, to give up any notion of wanting to overthrow that country through violent jihad.

[Calanen]

Has it crossed your mind that most people do not care if some insignificant aspect of life is changed to better accommodate for the needs of all citizens?


I know people dont care. That is the problem. The demands never stop. What is insignifcant today, is significant tomorrow.

The next round from the Islamic Jihad Machine is laws to prevent any discussion of Islam to silence any criticism of them by calling it Islamaphobia Hate Crimes. This will silence any possible dissent or criticism of Islam, by using our own legal systems against us. And the saddest thing is - that most people in the streets will happily agree with this, as we are racist, islamaphobic bigots after all that need to be kept in check while our cultural and legal heritage is wiped away with our own connivance.

[Calanen]

As an example of what I have said in the post above:

YouTube’ must erase anti-Islam material: KHRS KUWAIT CITY : Kuwait Human Rights Society (KHRS) Chairman Dr Adel Al-Damkhi has asked the government to put pressure on the officials of ‘YouTube’ — a video sharing website — to delete all derogatory statements about Islam and Muslims from the site, reports Al-Seyassah.

Urging the authorities to take the necessary legal action in case the website fails to erase the statements, Al-Damkhi stressed “uttering profanities against Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the worst form of human rights violation in the world. Attacks on the values and tenets of Islam are extremely dangerous and unacceptable.”

Al-Damkhi pointed out the United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) strongly condemns attacks on the holy prophets and religions. He confirmed KHRS recognizes the importance of freedom of conducting scientific research, exchange of information, and significance of the latest technologies and media on human lives, but it is against how ‘YouTube’ depicts Islam. He said this is an outright violation of the human rights of millions of Muslims all over the world.



http://www.arabtimesonline.com/client/pagesdetails.asp?nid=22943&ccid=22

Right - so criticising Mohammed or Islam, is a worse 'human rights abuse' that stoning people to death for adultery, (which can include being raped if you are a woman) or committing terrorism in the name of Islam. Or committing genocide, or preventing women from having equal rights, or beating your wife.

There will be more and more cries for censorship, because Islam cannot win the debates on the merits. Many of the positions it takes are entirely opposite to western notions of freedom and equality, and tolerance - so Islam uses those same values against us, and says, you cannot ever criticise us or that it is racism (what race is islam) or 'Islamaphobia' or a hate crime. Quite clever really.

[Mackie]

Calanen. Why posting a long article? The problem is simple.

Europe need educated immigrants to balance it's shrinking population
and stabilize economy growth.
85% of all immigrants are uneducated.
no chance --> unemployment --> crime --> terrorism.

[DS73]

Yes, completely. I don't know where you get this idea that people in Europe walk around going "we're such racist bigots, we must try harder to please the righteous immigrants". Interestingly your entire argument seems to be based around this notion of appeasement and forfeiture by Europeans. Has it crossed your mind that most people do not care if some insignificant aspect of life is changed to better accommodate for the needs of all citizens?

So, bending law to accommodate religious feelings (starting with treatment of animals and ending with family social health), the acceptance of street violence excusing it by "the lack of government attention", "affirmative action" crap are all "insignificant aspects"???
Fantastic.
The only thing that can excuse you, that you are a brain washed german lefty.



Some of your suggestions seem reasonable, some are impossible and others would make Stalin proud. But OK, we deny Muslims entry and forbid The Muslims we already do have from doing anything Muslimish. Then what?
They are free to find another better place.
The idea of a host changing home layout for a guest is utterly crazy in personal life. What make societies/countries that different?


How do you think the Muslim world would react? Would this increase our chances of living together in some sort of peaceful manner?
Why we as Europe should care about "increasing our chances"? What is there for us? I never understood this necessity for "eternal peace".
Other countries are free to do what suits them. Us? we do what suit us.
All interactions are the subject for negotiations and public treaties-openly said agreements. May be it is the discovery for you, but the majority of second generation immigrants don't consider them self locals and many openly defy local laws/rules. This happens exactly because the rules for "integration" weren't and aren't yet defined.
The idea of "increasing chances" is exactly what would be called appeasing.


That's not to say certain aspects of Muslim immigration doesn't concern me, particularly this Wahhabist filth spreading in Europe aided by Saudi funds and efforts to create countries within countries by certain Muslims. I wouldn't characterize it as a huge problem as you do though.It is not, because it is just starting.
I recommend you to study history of your own country, and to ask yourself what made it so strong and successful. Why the laws and social stability are not deaf sounds now. To trace mechanisms that build existing society/government system.
Liberal society, by its definition, is the society of people who accept liberal values. Europe came to it through bloody try&error attempts and failed starts. While its bases can be natural for many of us, it is not necessary natural or even "logical" for outsiders.

[DS73]

Calanen. Why posting a long article? The problem is simple.

Europe need educated immigrants to balance it's shrinking population
and stabilize economy growth.

There is no need "to balance it's shrinking population", as it is neither bad thing nor it happens yet, as well there is no need "to stabilize growth" as the reason for it's necessity (growth of average age and life expectancy) is no more present.

[joka]

So, bending law to accommodate religious feelings (starting with treatment of animals and ending with family social health), the acceptance of street violence excusing it by "the lack of government attention", "affirmative action" crap are all "insignificant aspects"???

Is that what I wrote? I was thinking more in the lines of when people like you cry your eyes out when some school in who knows where decides to add Halal meat to their menu or some local community makes a local decision to suit their local needs. If some country is dumb enough to allow special treatment of certain people or allow a parallel legal system, then that's their choice (and own fault).



Why we as Europe should care about "increasing our chances"? What is there for us? I never understood this necessity for "eternal peace".
Other countries are free to do what is suits them. Us? we do what suit us.
All interactions are the subject for negotiations and public treaties-openly said agreements. May be it is the discovery for you, but the majority of second generation don't consider them self locals and many openly defy local laws/rulles.
The idea of "increasing chances" is exactly what would be called appeasing.


It may be a discovery for you that short of a 2nd Holocaust there will always be Muslims in Europe and if we don't figure out a way to live together with them, these problems are not going to go anywhere. In fact, I submit that were we to implement some of the ideas suggested by Calanen together with your fakk em attitude, we will only escalate these problems and push more Muslims in to the hands of jihadists.

[joka]

Stalin just killed people that got in the way.

None of the above is impossible, or even difficult. And nothing is Stalineseque - is it really that controversial to ask people who are going to be citizens of your country, to give up any notion of wanting to overthrow that country through violent jihad.

These one's sticked out:

- end islamic immigration to the EU; Discriminating against a group of people based on their religion, nisch nisch.

- squash any attempts for special demands of treatment, and chop off at the knees any request for no pigs, no cartoons, no service of alcohol. Limiting what people can say or request, nisch nisch.

- prevent ghettoisation. Prevent any shopfront signs from being in Arabic - they must be in the native countries language; Urban planning is an important aspects to help integration, but this ein sprache policy, nisch nisch.

- (a) accept the right of the infidel government to remain as is; It's a slippery slope to order people that they have to accept a certain political arrangement. Besides, all these oaths and promises wouldn't mean much if people didn't really mean it.

Anyway, I'm going to retire from this discussion now, like I said this really isn't that big of an issue as you make it out to be.

[Calanen]

In fact, I submit that were we to implement some of the ideas suggested by Calanen together with your fakk em attitude, we will only escalate these problems and push more Muslims in to the hands of jihadists.


Yes because the appeasement route works so well in making the jihadis respect us. If we just give them enough, change enough, do enough - or ignore them enough - it will all go away and we can all be friends.

The only thing they respect is strength - so all those who know how need to be so. All those who dont need to get out of the way.

[Calanen]

[



- end islamic immigration to the EU; Discriminating against a group of people based on their religion, nisch nisch.



I dont know wtf nisch nisch means, I guess its something like tisk tisk?

See that's your problem - oh its discrimination. So if its part of my religion to kill you and overthrow your government, and install sharia government - that's fine is it - because after all - we wouldnt want to discriminate against your religion, would we? Islam is a political ideology and a legal system - that needs to be available to criticised, and scrutinised like any other. If it was just a religion - ie I believe in Allah - I couldnt give a rats. But it is not - it is a complete way of life and system of values that is incompatible with those held in the West, and it is one that is a hierarchical system that subordinates all before it.

In your view also, we should have unlimited Islamic immigration, because the most important value is freedom of religion. Fantastic strategy there sport - and a level of idiocy commonly held amongst governments throughout the EU.

So provided your extreme beliefs are religious in nature, they are ok. If I was to create a non-religious political party with the same beliefs as those commonly held in Islam, I would be decried as a neonazi jew hating fascist. But if I say that this is my religion - that is fine - because after all - we want to encourage freedom of religion right?

Religion is the cloak by which evil deeds are masked. You need to expand your definitions instead of just quoting the tired mantras of 'its discrimination people!' - Yeah it is discrimination, its sensible discrimination - because there are people who publicly profess to hate our society, our way of life, our freedoms. And you still want them here, because, ultimately we should respect free religion. Just insane. Hands tied to our balls by our own ideology. Like the pacifist who wont defend himself as he is being violently beaten in his own home, because to defend himself would be in breach of his values about violence.




- squash any attempts for special demands of treatment, and chop off at the knees any request for no pigs, no cartoons, no service of alcohol. Limiting what people can say or request, nisch nisch.


They can request or say anything they want, just that the answer will be No. We are not going to convert or change our entire way of life so that we hide all the liquor in the airport, cant have guide dogs in taxis or women have to wear burquas. If you dont like they way us infidels live - then gfto.


- prevent ghettoisation. Prevent any shopfront signs from being in Arabic - they must be in the native countries language; Urban planning is an important aspects to help integration, but this ein sprache policy, nisch nisch.

Urban planning? Integration? What possible incentive is there to integrate - where we are constantly saying, DONT INTEGRATE - do whatever you can to be different and keep your intolerant and anti-social beliefs, because we will change the way we live to suit you.



- (a) accept the right of the infidel government to remain as is; It's a slippery slope to order people that they have to accept a certain political arrangement. Besides, all these oaths and promises wouldn't mean much if people didn't really mean it.



A slippery slope? To accept that there is a free society? That we have a democratic government? So it is a slippery slope not to leave in there the possibility that we should try to overthrow the government with a violent jihad and install a theocracy - that is insane.


Anyway, I'm going to retire from this discussion now, like I said this really isn't that big of an issue as you make it out to be.

It isnt a big issue to you - because at the moment it doesnt affect you. But in 20 years time, when maybe you are a bit older and wiser, you might say - s*** he was right.

Also I don't think Stalin did anything like any of these policies. using the term Stalinist or Hitlerite or whatever is just an attempt to silence any criticism of multiculturalism. You must tolerate as many Islamic immigrants as we wish to bring into this country, because to stop them would be discrimination - so get used to it. Doesnt matter how bad it is for our society, we dont want discrimination of any kind first and foremost.

So that's what we stand for above all else - if our country is destroyed, that is less important than being able to say 'We didnt discriminate. Even when others discriminated against us.'

[Calanen]

Calanen. Why posting a long article? The problem is simple.

Europe need educated immigrants to balance it's shrinking population
and stabilize economy growth.
85% of all immigrants are uneducated.
no chance --> unemployment --> crime --> terrorism.

That's actually not correct. If you see my other articles, you will see that it has been conclusively proved that most of AQ are middle class people, intellectuals. Not people scrounging around in the dirt. That is another myth.

[Calanen]

Terror threat in UK 'approaching critical'

The terrorist threat in Britain is approaching critical as police and MI5 face an increase in activity by al-Qaeda militants, senior security officials have disclosed.



By Duncan Gardham, Security Correspondent
Last Updated: 9:54PM BST 02 Oct 2008

The terrorist threat in Britain has been considered severe since the arrest of the men allegedly plotting to attack transatlantic airliners in 2006 Photo: *******



The threat level is at the "severe end of severe" according to sources who say the level of "chatter" among terrorist cells has increased in recent months.

The security services say they are now operating at full stretch to counter the elevated threat.

Britain's close relationship with the US has been particularly inflammatory after cross-border raids into Pakistan by American forces.
Security officials had considered downgrading the official threat level from "severe" but that plan has now been abandoned as a result of the increase in terrorist activity.

A senior counter terrorism source said: "We were looking at the threat level six months ago and asking how severe is severe? But it is October now and we are at the severe end of severe.

"Al-Qaeda's core exists on the Afghan-Pakistan border. The arrangement of people changes at a frighteningly rapid pace but they have enough people to replace them and there are people who are looking at us and at external operations, some at this country in particular.

"We are not chasing shadows. These are potential threats to security and life. Police and the security network are operating at full capacity."
The source said a review by the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre, which looks at information from MI5, MI6 and GCHQ, had considered downgrading the threat from "severe," meaning an attack is highly likely, to "substantial," meaning an attack is a strong possibility, but that move was abandoned after the level of activity increased.

The assessment, which has five levels, has been considered severe since the arrest of the men allegedly plotting to attack transatlantic airliners in 2006 but moved up to "critical," meaning an attack is imminent, during last year's car bomb alert which led to the attack on Glasgow airport.
It is now only just below that level.

MI5 is watching around 200 networks across Britain and MI6 and GCHQ are constantly monitoring communications on the crucial Afghan-Pakistan border area.

Although key commanders have been killed in air strikes, one of the particular concerns is the disappearance of Rashid Rauf from Birmingham, an alleged al-Qaeda mastermind who escaped from Pakistani custody last December.

Security officials are also worried about threats which may come from off the radar.

They are particularly worried by lone operators who "self-radicalise" over the internet and stock-pile chemicals from domestic sources.

"They are discreet from traditional networks and have a very small intelligence signature which makes them hard to pick up," the source said.
There is also a fear that some in the Somali community in Britain could have "potential connections" with al-Qaeda terrorists.

Last week's attack on the US embassy in the Yemen means security officials now consider the Arabian peninsular "particularly combustible."
"Over the past year, al-Qaeda has invested huge energy in outlying organisations," the source said.

But it is the lone operators who pose the biggest threat, particularly since attempts to cut off the supply of "kitchen chemicals" used in home made bombs, such as hydrogen peroxide and ammonium nitrate, have been unsuccessful because they are so widely available.

"We are doing a lot of research work into the detection of explosives at train stations and so on but this really demonstrates the importance of preventing radicalisation," the source said.

Part of the strategy has involved tackling al-Qaeda propaganda over the internet.

"We are looking at the way we see the threat as a movement by the al-Qaeda core and we're finding a new language to help move on the debate," the source said. "Whatever they do, we want to do."

The Office for Security and Counter-Terrorism, a part of the Home Office which co-ordinates Britain's count-terrorism strategy, is working on a number of strategies for diverting vulnerable young men and de-radicalising those who have become involved with extremist organisations.

"We have limited evidence about what works but we want to get moving forward," the source said. "We need some quick wins."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/3124098/Terror-threat-in-UK-approaching-critical.html

[Those tiny minority of misunderstander extremists working hard at it again. Those guys must never sleep, day and night they toil away....given there are so few of them.]

[DS73]

Is that what I wrote?

That what you meant.
Has it crossed your mind that most people do not care if some insignificant aspect of life is changed to better accommodate for the needs of all citizens?Insignificant aspect of life happens to be a "deafness" of authorities in many, many disputes involved not only ME immigrants but also chines, etc.etc.etc. The critical situation in Rome is a good example where such behavior leads.



I was thinking more in the lines of when people like you cry your eyes out when some school in who knows where decides to add Halal meat to their menu or some local community makes a local decision to suit their local needs. If some country is dumb enough to allow special treatment of certain people or allow a parallel legal system, then that's their choice (and own fault).
Or this desire to generalize!:roll:
Would you care to show where anybody on this forum is crying his eyes out about "halal meat". "Demonstrations" protesting arrest of "muslims" are hardly about "halal meat".
Btw. bold stuff is valid in Germany and as "gedogen" in some luckily small areas in the NL. For example there is some general "tolerance" toward treatment of children in muslim families (just ask child care), pretty serious number of schools literally fail to prepare students for local market-life (it is a crime in Germany I remind you).



It may be a discovery for you that short of a 2nd Holocaust there will always be Muslims in Europe and if we don't figure out a way to live together with them, these problems are not going to go anywhere. In fact, I submit that were we to implement some of the ideas suggested by Calanen together with your fakk em attitude, we will only escalate these problems and push more Muslims in to the hands of jihadists.Obviously you have no idea about extremism, its roots and social realities.
For example the main starting point for islam extremism groups in Germany was state support for Islam (probably with US backup and CIA interference for A'stan "freedom"), and the import of mostly illeterate and pretty agresive mullahs from middle and far East.
The same is true for the Netherlands and Belgium.
Revival of Islam in Germany and generally western Europe was supported and organized by european states.
And of course I remind you that "red army" rise was the result for "fakk us" propaganda in german school system and russian money. Not the result of "social unjustice" or of state criminality as some morons would imply.
"Pushing" happens only if there are some extra factors involved. There are always leaders, money, weapons, external players. Typical stuff that should be and is familiar for police from cold war. Nothing that is "deadly" by itself.

I don't know what world you live in, but did you ever bother to ask muslims and exmuslims in your area what they would prefer them self? If you would succeed to start honest free conversation with them, their opinion would surprise you.

[Calanen]

I don't know what world you live in, but did you ever bother to ask muslims and exmuslims in your area what they would prefer them self? If you would succeed to start honest free conversation with them, their opinion would surprise you.


It's mostly the need for sharia law, a separate islamic state and community, for everyone to follow the Koran, for women to cover up. Its not 'live and let live.'

[widi243]

Throwing out retarded numbers like 90% suggests you're getting some good quality sleep yourself.

I don't know how it's in your country but in mine 90% people are roman catholic.

[Holycrusader]

It's mostly the need for sharia law, a separate islamic state and community, for everyone to follow the Koran, for women to cover up. Its not 'live and let live.'

Than Australia should be afraid... Europe have nothing to fear, muslims I know (except maybe UK one) need only blond women and no selection before the clubs.

[Calanen]

I don't know how it's in your country but in mine 90% people are roman catholic.

Ok great - Poland is ahead of the curve. That doesnt mean there is not a problem in:

- the UK,
- France;
- Netherlands;
- Belgium
- Sweden
- Denmark;
- Germany.

If Poland is doing fine that is great - but it does not mean there is not a really big problem still in other states in Europe.

[pekka elo]

Remember that integration and freedom of religion are not contradictory. Of course Muslims' possible intolerance towards other religions also infringes that freedom.

[Calanen]

Than Australia should be afraid... Europe have nothing to fear, muslims I know (except maybe UK one) need only blond women and no selection before the clubs.

It's not a question of being 'afraid'. Australians are not really known for being cowardly people. We dont worry about much, which is why we make good cool headed soldiers, we keep it together.

It's about dealing with a problem. Your experience of muslims wherever you are, individual muslims is pretty much not important when you are dealing with an ideology. It is the ideology that is the problem - there may be lots of moderate muslims, but there is no moderate islam. And once there are calls for jihad, even many of the 'moderates' will join in. Nigerian people will tell you, that their neighbours and friends who were muslims that had seemed like such nice people prior to jihad, suddenly wanted to fight them when the call for Holy War went out.

The inevitable result of concentrations of islam near people who are not muslim is warfare - because islam demands that this occurs. It demands that the muslims when they have enough people, must conquer infidel governments and laws and install sharia. The one exception to this is Turkey. But even Turkey is having a fundamentalist resurgence.

[Mackie]

That's actually not correct. If you see my other articles, you will see that it has been conclusively proved that most of AQ are middle class people, intellectuals. Not people scrounging around in the dirt. That is another myth.

Which cannot act alone. They are part of a movement which needs follower making it intransparent and desirous to be part of them.
Of course AQ try to recruit educated professional members but terrorists like Eric Breininger are also a threat which have to be observed by intelligence service reducing their capacity.

[Mackie]

There is no need "to balance it's shrinking population", as it is neither bad thing nor it happens yet, as well there is no need "to stabilize growth" as the reason for it's necessity (growth of average age and life expectancy) is no more present.

Tell that my company faced with the reality that good educated workforce has massive problems to immigrate and a lot of job applicants living in Germany for years neither speak German nor English.
Demand for high qualified labor in future cannot be meet by national schools and universities cos politics answers came to late (in some states never came).
Immigration of high qualified in Germany is way under the level of comparable nations.

[Calanen]

Tell that my company faced with the reality that good educated workforce has massive problems to immigrate and a lot of job applicants living in Germany for years neither speak German nor English.
Demand for high qualified labor in future cannot be meet by national schools and universities cos politics answers came to late (in some states never came).
Immigration of high qualified in Germany is way under the level of comparable nations.


Yes - bringing in loads of people to go straight onto the welfare queues who are unskilled and cant speak English, is not a sensible way to deal with a skills shortage.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Why should the public pay for anyone, europeans included, to have 6, 8 or 10 children on welfare?

What about the family who has 6 kids, has the means to look after 6 kids but due to the bank he works for going under is now going to the dole office?


p-)

[Calanen]

What about the family who has 6 kids, has the means to look after 6 kids but due to the bank he works for going under is now going to the dole office?


p-)

If you even find one person who fits into that category, I would be amazed.

[Dr_Fünke]

It's not a question of being 'afraid'. Australians are not really known for being cowardly people.


You must be living in a different Australia. We sure seem to get scared pretty easily when some 'different' people arrive on our shores:



Forty per cent of Australians believe some ethnic groups do not belong in the country with one in 10 having outwardly racist views, a new study shows.

On average, about one in 10 people said it was not good for people of different cultures to marry and about the same number said not all races are equal.


"It's only about one in 10 people now in Australia across the different states that would have that sort of view - the racial supremacists for instance," Prof Dunn said.


"That's still quite high I suppose - there's a lot of concern that comes out of that."
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=638470&rss=yes
You're ideas about our 'brave nation' and the 'peaceful religion' you believe the west is based on, which you seem to think is so important for us to hold onto, are not only indicative of ignorance on these issues, but also give cover to religious ideals which help perpetuate the very problems your threads describe. It was Christian politicians, claiming to be guided by their religious conviction, who made foreign policy decisions which will ensure a hefty blowback in the form of retalitary attacks from Islamic terrorists for decades to come and it was Christian politicians that helped to create the conditions which have led to a recent influx of muslim refugees in Australia.

More on this issue from a critique of a Spencer article:


One cannot help noticing that in Japan, where Christians form less than one percent of the population, and Christian traditions are not a significant component of the national culture, Islam is neither a problem nor a threat, simply because Japan does not let Muslims-nor any other foreigners-settle in great numbers. The Japanese don’t give a fig for the universal brotherhood of man, and still cherish their national sovereignty. We no longer care much about our sovereignty, so long as our bellies are full and we have gadgets and clowns to amuse us; and our bishops, not to mention our Christian President and the globalist elites who surround him, tell us that doubts about the wisdom of mass Third World immigration are unkind, if not actually “hateful” (not to mention damaging to their stock portfolios)

A sensibly exclusionist, separationist policy like Japan’s is therefore not available to us, because of our principles-those principles Spencer tells us are rooted in Christian thinking, those principles that send our author into such raptures of cultural superiority.
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/christianity_good_islam_bad/

[DS73]

Tell that my company faced with the reality that good educated workforce has massive problems to immigrate and a lot of job applicants living in Germany for years neither speak German nor English.

This is exactly the result of "nonexistent" appeasing. Instead of stating clear rules for regulated integration, plenty of idiots mimic dutch "pillar" system blindly calling it "multiculturalism" (that is not).


Demand for high qualified labor in future cannot be meet by national schools and universities cos politics answers came to late (in some states never came).
Apples and oranges.

Apparently there are biologically wired limits on a percentage of active population (15-30% of total population, "surprisingly" more in places with moderate climate). Whatever you do (kick out people from country, take immigrants in) it stays that way.
Great examples are "instant" recoveries of USSR and Germany after WW2, or inverse example of USA that sunk down in just one generation.
Already children of skilled immigrants are quite ordinary and form at best just "average" mass. Immigrants from "problem" countries import with their skills full bucket of national prejudices and crazy customs. And they bring relatives, never forget relatives.

Anyway obviously any postindustrial country will have serious troubles finding skilled labor no matter what they do. One of essential reasons is the expansionist character of modern economy. To survive you "should" grow.
While such rules will persist, your company, just like everybody else, will have serious problems with personal. With accepted immigration or not.


Immigration of high qualified in Germany is way under the level of comparable nations.
The idea of "labor competition" is idiotic one. The small group of Swedish maniacs did more than hoards of Indians in US. Funnily enough since Eriscson became "international" they started to loose patent grip.:roll:
Germany (just like any other country) should accept those people she really needs and can get. "Simplifying, advertising" etc. won't change situation to the better.

At present the only real obstacle that Germany has is language. And that something you can't change.
(Legally Germany's a heaven especially if to compare with south European countries.)
High German is not exactly the easiest language to master, the first hill (when you start to understand and speak) is very high. Being lazy as I am I already have troubles with its franconian cousin and I can tell I start sweating when I see german grammar. Scary stuff.

[Atlantic Friend]

Stalin just killed people that got in the way.

EX-CUSE ME ??? Stalin "just" killed people "that got in the way" ??


None of the above is impossible, or even difficult. And nothing is Stalineseque

You mean, it's not "just" about killing people "that got in the way" ?