The Battle of Britain

[hist2004]

The Battle of Britain took place between August and September 1940. After the success of Blitzkrieg, the evacuation of Dunkirk and the surrender of France, Britain was by herself. The Battle of Britain remains one of the most famous battles of World War Two.
The Germans needed to control the English Channel to launch her invasion of Britain (which the Germans code-named Operation Sealion).
They needed this control of the Channel so that the British Navy would not be able to attack her invasion barges which were scheduled to land on the Kent and Sussex beaches.

To control the Channel the Germans needed control of the air. This meant that they had to take on Fighter Command, led by Sir Hugh Dowding, of the Royal Air Force.
The main fighter planes of the RAF were the Spitfire and the Hurricane.
The Germans relied primarily on their Messcherschmitt fighters and their Junkers dive bombers - the famed Stukas.

At the start of the war, Germany had 4,000 aircraft compared to Britain's front-line strength of 1,660. By the time of the fall of France, the Luftwaffe (the German air force) had 3,000 planes based in north-west Europe alone including 1,400 bombers, 300 dive bombers, 800 single engine fighter planes and 240 twin engine fighter bombers. At the start of the battle, the Luftwaffe had 2,500 planes that were serviceable and in any normal day, the Luftwaffe could put up over 1,600 planes. The RAF had 1,200 planes on the eve of the battle which included 800 Spitfires and Hurricanes - but only 660 of these were serviceable. The rate of British plane production was good - the only weakness of the RAF was the fact that they lacked sufficient trained and experienced pilots. Trained pilots had been killed in the war in France and they had not been replaced.

Britain had a number of advantages over the Luftwaffe. Britain had RADAR which gave us early warning of the approach of the German planes. By the Spring of 1940, fifty-one radar bases had been built around the coast of southern Britain. We also had the Royal Observer Corps (ROC) which used such basics as binoculars to do the same job. By 1940, over 1000 ROC posts had been established. British fighter planes could spend more time in the air over Kent and Sussex as we could easily land for fuel whereas the German fighters could not. German bombers could fly for longer distances than their fighter planes could cover and therefore, the bombers could not always count on fighter cover for protection. The German fighters were also limited in that they could not reload their guns if they ran out of ammunition while over Kent etc. Our fighters could. Without sufficient fighter cover, the German bombers were very open to attack from British fighter planes.

The battle started on July 10th 1940 when the Luftwaffe attempted to gain control of the Straits of Dover. The aim of the Luftwaffe was to tempt the RAF out for a full-scale battle. By the end of July, the RAF had lost 150 aircraft while the Luftwaffe had lost 268. In August, the Luftwaffe started to attack Fighter Command's airfields, operation rooms and radar stations - the idea being that the RAF could be destroyed on the ground so that the Luftwaffe need not fight them in the air. Without radar the RAF would be seriously hampered in terms of early warning and the destruction of operation rooms would cut off communications between fighter bases and those at the heart of the battle controlling the movement of fighter planes. Destroyed runways would hamper the chances of a fighter plane taking off.
Bad weather stopped the Luftwaffe from daily raids in August but August 15th is seen as a key date as nearly all the Stuka dive-bombers were destroyed by this date as they fell easy prey to the British fighter planes. Therefore, pin-point bombing of radar stations was all but impossible.

From August 23rd to September 6th, the Luftwaffe started night time bombing raids on cities. The RAF was also badly hit with 6 out of 7 main fighter bases in south-eastern England being put out of action. Biggen Hill was wrecked. However, for all this apparent success, the Luftwaffe was losing more planes than the RAF was - 1000 German losses to 550 RAF.

One event did greatly aid the British. The head of the Luftwaffe - Herman Goering - ordered an end to the raids on radar bases as he believed that they were too unimportant to matter. Albert Speer - a leading Nazi throughout the war - claimed in his book "Inside the Third Reich" that a number of important decisions were made based on Goering's ignorance. As Goering did not understand the importance of something, it was dismissed as unnecessary for success. As a result of this, the radar station at Ventnor on the Isle of Wight functioned throughout the battle and gave Fighter Command vital information regarding German targets.

The change to bombing the cities also gave Fighter Command time to recover from its losses and for pilots to recover from the many hours a day they operated which took many to the brink of exhaustion.

On September 15th came the last major engagement of the battle. On that day, the Luftwaffe lost 60 planes while the RAF lost 28. On September 17th, Hitler postponed indefinitely the invasion of Britain though the night time raids - the Blitz - continued. London, Plymouth and Coventry were all badly hit by these raids.

Recent research indicates that Hitler’s heart was not in an attack on Britain but that he wanted to concentrate his country’s strength on an attack on communist Russia. However, no-one in Britain in the autumn of 1940 would have known about this and all indications from April 1940 onwards, were that Hitler did intend to invade Britain, especially after his boast to the German people - "he's coming, he's coming!"

In a continuation of the propaganda war, the British government claimed that the RAF had shot down 2,698 German planes. The actual figure was 1,100. The RAF lost 650 planes - not the 3,058 planes that the Luftwaffe claimed to have shot down - more than the entire RAF!

Why were the Germans defeated ?

1. The Germans fought too far away from their bases so that refueling and rearming were impossible. The German fighters had a very limited time which they could spend over Britain before their fuel got too low.

2. British fighters could land, refuel and rearm and be in the air again very quickly.

3. The change of targets was crucial. It is now believed that Fighter Command was perhaps only 24 hours away from defeat when the attack on the cities occurred. The breathing space this gave Fighter Command was crucial.


4. The Hurricane and Spitfire were exceptional planes - capable of taking on the might of the Luftwaffe.


At the end of the battle, Winston Churchill said: "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."

Regards,
Hist2004

[1Cie GevGn]

Great story, and repect to the airmen of both sides who fought and died over England.



I was tired and worn when I saw the white cliffs
Over the channel, headed for the field,

I didn't look back, just pushing my Merlin forward,
low on fuel, on oil, my fate I'd just sealed.

I didn't look in my rear view mirror,
I was safe I supposed,
I didn't see the big yellow nose
Of the 109
The mirror might have disclosed.
Before I knew it, I felt the sound,
Of bullets coming in,

I was on fire, could not get out,
With the canopy I did not win.

To a watery grave I went,
Without family or friend,
To those that stood waiting,
I still remember..when.

I was an excellent pilot, with A status,
I had a rating of 7 kills,
No matter how good you are,
Death is part of the game of thrills.

by John Gillespie Magee Jr.
Died December 11, 1941
19 years old

[oldsoak]

We also had pilots from the occupied countries which helped no end. French, Dutch, Czechs, Poles etc - not to mention the commonwealth Kiwis, Aussies, Canucks, India - and Yanks volunteers - they meant we could put more pilots and planes in the sky than we'd otherwise been able to.

[LeMat]

repect to the airmen of both sides who fought and died over England.


Oh yes. Especially for those airman who were dropping bombs on english cities - civilians hmoes, hospitals, schools...

[mack pl]

repect to the airmen of both sides who fought and died over England.


Oh yes. Especially for those airman who were dropping bombs on english cities - civilians hmoes, hospitals, schools...

Ohhh, English(allies) pilots didnt dropping bombs on targets like schools, civilian homes etc.?Man, it was "normal" tactic in WW II. Do you ever heard about "carpet bombing"-Im not sure is that correct in english, but for you I could said that in polish-"Bombardowanie dywanowe".

Pozdro

[Kitsune]

Remember please: Hitler offered the English peace after the conquest of France, he even offered to end the French occupation in that case. This was not further discussed since the English flatly rejected.

Its pretty certain now, Hitler wanted to attack east and found the whole situation with Britain annoying. So he toyed with the idea to blitzconquer Great Britain...which was a bit complicated by the fact that England is an Island and the British fleet was 3 times as large as the German one. ;)

For the plan to have any chance, the Germans needed air superiority. Well, see above. Please note that the Germans practiced remarkable restraint: they targeted military important installations only at first (Coventry for example was a nexus of the British armed industry) and London was strictly off limits. The killing of civilians was not the objective, in contrast to the later Allied bombings of Germany (for one time the Nazis were actually more humane than the democrats, surprising isn't it? OK the democrats didn't murder 6 million jews however...)

The surprising change of tactics was caused by a British bombing raid on Berlin. As was to be exspected Hitler was furious about this British insolence and ordered now the bombing of London, Birmingham Manchester...
Funnily, this attempt to exact revenge may have been the reason why the Germans lost the Battle of Britain: these additional tasks proved too much for the Luftwaffe, who was not structured for strategic bombing (German military doctrine used the Luftwaffe for defense or close air support for ground forces...ersatzartillery if you will). This enabled the RAF to recover.

After the British Airforce could not be neutralized Hitler decided to pospone the British problem until he had crushed the Sovietunion.

The rest is history.

[mack pl]

Remember please: Hitler offered the English peace after the conquest of France, he even offered to end the French occupation in that case. This was not further discussed since the English flatly rejected.

Its pretty certain now, Hitler wanted to attack east and found the whole situation with Britain annoying. So he toyed with the idea to blitzconquer Great Britain...which was a bit complicated by the fact that England is an Island and the British fleet was 3 times as large as the German one. ;)

For the plan to have any chance, the Germans needed air superiority. Well, see above. Please note that the Germans practiced remarkable restraint: they targeted military important installations only at first (Coventry for example was a nexus of the British armed industry) and London was strictly off limits. The killing of civilians was not the objective, in contrast to the later Allied bombings of Germany (for one time the Nazis were actually more humane than the democrats, surprising isn't it? OK the democrats didn't murder 6 million jews however...)

The surprising change of tactics was caused by a British bombing raid on Berlin. As was to be exspected Hitler was furious about this British insolence and ordered now the bombing of London, Birmingham Manchester...
Funnily, this attempt to exact revenge may have been the reason why the Germans lost the Battle of Britain: these additional tasks proved too much for the Luftwaffe, who was not structured for strategic bombing (German military doctrine used the Luftwaffe for defense or close air support for ground forces...ersatzartillery if you will). This enabled the RAF to recover.

After the British Airforce could not be neutralized Hitler decided to pospone the British problem until he had crushed the Sovietunion.

The rest is history.

Yeah, sure ;) Brave Luftwaffe pilots, who only support brave land forces(like in Warsaw uprising 44) ;) :lol: .............yeah, sure ;)

ohh well, I agree with you in one thing-Its history ;) :)

[Kitsune]

Mack...

we were talking about the Battle of Britain, weren't we? And what I said is true.

However it is also true, that the respect that was shown to the British was not shown to the Polish. :(

Still, what the Germans did, even in Poland, was not "Strategic Bombing". There was no equivalent to Hamburg or Dresden. They did not eradicate cities which had no arms industry and were not part of the front line.

They attacked cities who were defended, as long as they kept defending, and were not terribly upset about loss of civilian life, I have to agree.

But I cannot agree that the German CONQUEST of Poland was incredibly inhuman, compared to tactics the Allies would later use in, lets say France. The truly horrible astrocities were mostly committed afterwards, not during the Polish campaign.

But prove me wrong, if you can. I am interested in anything about it.

[duck]

...bandits at 8 o'clock move in behind us
ten ME 109's out of the sun
ascending and turning our Spitfires to face them
heading straight for them I press down my guns

rolling, turning, diving
rolling, turning, diving, going in again
run, live to fly, fly to live, do or die
run, live to fly, fly to live, Aces high! p-) ....

[martinexsquaddie]

my grandma used to tell me a story about a german plane used to come over regular as clockwork at 2pm and strafe gardens after a fornt night never came back :(
sorry you wear a nazi swastika on your uniform you don't deserve any respect alive or dead :(

[Kitsune]

@martinexsquaddie:

Well, the swastika was the German flagg at the time, so everyone had it on their uniform, wether Nazi or not.
My Grandparent told me of British and American deepflying fighters who hunted byciclists and civilians at busstations like hares. As I first heard it I couldn't believe it, I was young and had seen all those movies...Americans and British were the good ones after all...

But people to who I talked, who had lived back then, said it was absolutely true. The difference is, Germans have accepted responsibility for the astrocities they committed. Americans and British see their deeds as wholy justified...in the greater picture...it was war...and so on.

If you disrespect any German airmen, its only fair and just to do the same to any member of the Allied bomber command. They killed 10 times more civilians, than the Luftwaffe.

[mack pl]

Mack...

we were talking about the Battle of Britain, weren't we? And what I said is true.
Ok, if we are talking about Battle of Britain I must agree both sides were killing civilians :|


However it is also true, that the respect that was shown to the British was not shown to the Polish. :(
Agree :|


Still, what the Germans did, even in Poland, was not "Strategic Bombing". There was no equivalent to Hamburg or Dresden. They did not eradicate cities which had no arms industry and were not part of the front line.
Well, Im not talking about september39 campaign, but about Warsaw uprising44-when Luftwaffe used this tactic-"strategic bombing"-do you konw how big damages Warsaw have after this uprising?More than 90%.......Luftwaffe did helped a lot in that :|


They attacked cities who were defended, as long as they kept defending, and were not terribly upset about loss of civilian life, I have to agree. agree too


But I cannot agree that the German CONQUEST of Poland was incredibly inhuman, compared to tactics the Allies would later use in, lets say France. The truly horrible astrocities were mostly committed afterwards, not during the Polish campaign.Are you sure of that?So, you trying to say Germans soldiers started killing innocent ppl after spetemeber 39 campaign,yeah ;) But in campaign in Poland)"fall weiss") you didnt made any bad things,yeah?No bombard civilians who trying escaped of incoming Germans troops,not killing POWs, etc. etc.Yes?Ohhh, sure, Germans soldiers in sept.39 have very clean hands ;) Belive on that if you want man ;)


But prove me wrong, if you can. I am interested in anything about it.
I no need to proof you anything man.You have right to belive what ever you want, even that Sun is cold ;) And dont ask me of any links, sources etc., coz Im guessing you have some good history books in Germany.I hope you have ;)


PS.Its not another stupid flame war.Im not offensive(I hope).And I will not posting more in this thread :|


Regards Kitsune :)

[Kitsune]

@Mack:

I didn't say clean. And I did not even meant "justified". I meant to say that the conquest of Poland was, compared to the behaviour of other armies of the time, even of British and American, not more brutal.

Please remember the numbers given for D-Day:
German army dead: 7000,
Allied armed forces dead: 12.000
French civilans dead: 20.000

Because, for example, the City of Caen was bombed to kill the Germans there. The French civilian losses were accepted. American or Britsh Forces wouldn't do something of the time nowadays. But back then...
All in all, the German military didn't behave differently.
As for the later doings of the SS, the ethnic cleansings, the punishment operations...that is another story of course. As is the Warsaw uprising. Or...even worse, the Warsaw ghetto uprising. Especially the last was crushed with a brutality I feel deeply ashamed about. :(
The longer the war lasted, the more the Nazis felt their power slipping away, the crueler they became.

I, too, didn't want to be offensive. I did not want to start a silly flame war...but I have nothing against a discussion. Although the topic is emotionally charged.

Regards to you as well, mack pl.
:hug: (I mean it!)

[duck]

From Alan Clark's "Barbarossa" p.25:

"...to Hitler's celebrated Berghof conference of 22nd August 1939. Of all the speeches and all the occasions in the history of the Nazis it is this "private" conference which illustrates most vividly their devilish character. Hitler had exculted that day, "There will probably never again be a man with such authority or who has the confidence of the whole German people as I have...Our enemies are men below average, not men of action, not masters. They are little worms." In any case, he told his listeners, the Western powers would not move to defend Poland for that morning Ribbentrop had flown to Moscow to sign the nonaggression pact with the Soviets. "I have struck this instrument from their hands. Now we can strike at the heart of Poland-I have ordered to the East my Death's Head units (of the SS) with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women and children of Polish race or language."

At this point, we are told, Goering jumped on the table, and after offering "bloodthirsty thanks and bloody promises...danced around like a savage."...

Charming and considerate behaviour by the German CINC and chief of the Luftwaffe, don't you think, Kitsune?

[oldsoak]

Fella, the Nazis created the situation that set Germans against the rest of Europe - you cant start a fight and expect the bloke who thumps you to apologise. When you start a fight, expect to bring out the worst in your opponent. Without doubt there were those Germans who were brave and honourable men, but what were they fighting for ? A liberal democracy with a bill of human rights ? no, it was the Nazis.

[Valuk]

If Goering danced that doesn't mean every Luftwaffe pilot, Kriegesmarine seaman or Wehrmacht soldier was a Nazi!

Hitler&Co were just plain criminals, nothing more than that.

Allied soldiers killed a lot of civilians, however that has been accepted. :|
Many more were killed in guerilla fightings. :( In many occupied countries more than a few forces with very different political backgrounds existed at the time. They killed civilians, members of other querilla forces, each other, Germans, Italians... This happened in Ukraine, Yugoslavia, Greece, France... Millions were killed that way, many more than the entire sum of casualties of ww2 air war.

In Ukraine, Russians supported their partisans against Germans and German sympathizers, some Ukranians fought against Russians because they feared Stalin (Stalin killed millions of Ukranians before the war) and at the same time fought against Germans, some fought only for themselves etc.. Who got hurt the most? Civilians of course!

The same was in ex-Yugoslavia, including Slovenia. Many younger people were drafted into Wehrmacht, those that remained had two options: go to partisans and fight at first against Germans or wait a few days and you will be drafted by anti-communis forces sponsored by the Germans and Italians. Of course, if you refused both sides could kill you and that happened very often! Some were even under italian protection fighting against Germans... rofl

It was a total chaos and only one thing was certain: Life of an ordinary civilian had no real value! Occupying forces smartly used this disputes as a weapon of war, behaving in the DIVIDE ET EMPERA kind of way!

There is just one big problem with people. For many of you the life of an American GI, English or German citizen is worth much more than the life of ordinary Russian, Czech, Pole, Slovak, Slowene, Serb, Chinese (10 millions Chinese civilians were killed in ww2 and who gives a **** :( )!

I believe Hollywood is partly to blame for that, isn't that true?! :bash:

[Kitsune]

@duck&others:

I have never said that Hitler was a nice man or something. But against the British he ordered a kind of warfare that wasn't overly cruel. He offered peace, he ordered restraint, he changed this only after provocation. That doesn't change the fact that he did order brutal things.
But the problem is, that the picture of WWII, that is painted today, is still heavily influenced by Western Allied Propaganda.
D-Day for example is overemphazised.
As are the German Air raids on Britain. (During the D-Day invasion more than half as many French civilans were killed by Western bombs, than the Germans had killed British civilians.)
Brutalities of the Western Allies,on the other hand, either through callousness or deliberately planned ones, (like the Strategic Bombing campaign against Germany, that aimed at nothing less then to kill systematically civilians until Germany would break apart) are also deemphasized, one "hides" them in the shadow of the Nazi evil. Nowadays it has become that bad, that the killing of 50 civilians by the Germans (because the Germans wanted to terrorize some resistance movement) are commemorated, the destruction of a Germany city, without any industry of military importance (because the Western allies wanted to terririze the Germans into submission), and the subsequent attack on suburbs, with the sole aim to kill the refugees fleeing these city (total deathtoll: around 35.000 civilians, nealry 10.000 of them Children) are allegedly justified actions. (Although they didn't shorten the war in any way. Ups.)
On the other side it is conveniently forgotten (for example when D-Day is celebrated), that the Western Powers ally Stalin had killed 12 million people before the Nazi Holocaust even started (probably Alan Clarke forgets to say something about Stalins devilish character in his book, or does he?) and would be responsible for the killing of around 23 million people during his whole career. Whereas France may have been liberated, the whole of Eastern Europe was left to the Soviets for centuries.

I do not want to picture Hitler as harmless. Far from it. But after what I saw the man is demonized, his evilness is often portraied as somehow "superhuman". But he was just a man.
Of course, America and Britain never had a reason to face the darker elements of their doings. The Nazis or the Communist were worse. But a balanced view of things should not ommit what the Western Powers did, nor fail to mention if the Germans did actually conduct themselves well, just because it doesn't fit into the usual picture of the fight between good and evil.
I, for my part, will at least try to do so.


Last remark: this is in no way meant as flaming or something. While, what I wrote, may be offensive to some, it is, as far as I know it, the truth. I have tried to develope a view of WWII, that is neutral and objective, to the best of my abilities. Perhaps I failed in doing so. But that is what discussions are for (ideally) to exchange views, and perhaps, learn something new.

[FLaKKeY]

hehe eventually you would have to say things evened out..
The nights of terror which the British were subjected to after the battle of britain.. were basically thrown back to the germans in 44 / 45 with the Destruction of Hamburg (Gormanth or goliath somethin like that) and the Bombing of Dresden.. in both cases firestorms were created... Both times air-power was the decisively brutal.. the targets were not essentially military but more civilian... both sides showed that night bombing and night fighters were also not very succesful against military targets...

[mack pl]

@Mack:

I didn't say clean. And I did not even meant "justified". I meant to say that the conquest of Poland was, compared to the behaviour of other armies of the time, even of British and American, not more brutal.

Please remember the numbers given for D-Day:
German army dead: 7000,
Allied armed forces dead: 12.000
French civilans dead: 20.000

Because, for example, the City of Caen was bombed to kill the Germans there. The French civilian losses were accepted. American or Britsh Forces wouldn't do something of the time nowadays. But back then...
All in all, the German military didn't behave differently.
As for the later doings of the SS, the ethnic cleansings, the punishment operations...that is another story of course. As is the Warsaw uprising. Or...even worse, the Warsaw ghetto uprising. Especially the last was crushed with a brutality I feel deeply ashamed about. :(
The longer the war lasted, the more the Nazis felt their power slipping away, the crueler they became.

I, too, didn't want to be offensive. I did not want to start a silly flame war...but I have nothing against a discussion. Although the topic is emotionally charged.

Regards to you as well, mack pl.
:hug: (I mean it!)

First of all :hug: ..... ;) :lol:

But I must correct you a little ;)

1) SS??? Ohh, well, its very popular version in Germany about war crimes. Well, SS troops were butchers, Einsatzkomando etc., but Waffen-SS, and Werchmaht troops werent much better. They made many war crimes and its not my idea, its historical fact.

2) Warsaw ghetto uprising 1943 was worst than Warsaw uprising 1944 ? Why ? Because in ghetto Jews were fighting? Ohh,well, in this second uprising more than 90% of city were damaged, but its nothing. More than 200 000 people were killed. Does anyone could say it was less horrible than ghetto uprising? We shouldnt even compare this two uprisings( I have big respect for jewish fighters) but If we compare only numbers, uprising 1944 was worst.

I hope my post is clear ;)

PS. its not flame war, its good constructive discussion :)

Regards Kitsune :)

[oldsoak]

Ithink its time we cut modern Germans free from their past. I'd like to think we liberated Germany as well as Europe.

[LeMat]

Terrible! I think that some of you don`t know who started that war. Whose airmen were throwing bombs on polish civilians in 1939. Who? LUFTWAFFE!So these fuked nazists didn`t deserve any respect!
And it is pity that more of nazists weren`t killed during carpet bombing. They elected Hitler. And most of germans were supporting nazist. They were "using" poles as slaves. And than it was OK for them - Lebensraum, Untermensch... But now I can see some stupid ideas appears - "it wasn`t germans - it was nazists". Remember nazists = germans.
NO RESPECT FOR NAZISTS! NEVER!

[hist2004]

Guys-

I didn't mean to stir-up hard feelings, as with all my posts, whatever I feel
personally or politically I try to remain neutral. I just wanted to present an
important event in the history of World War II.

Regards & Thanks,
Hist2004

[king_nothing100]

repect to the airmen of both sides who fought and died over England.


Oh yes. Especially for those airman who were dropping bombs on english cities - civilians hmoes, hospitals, schools...

Ever hear of Dresden? We're no better than them when it comes to bombing, think the allies took 500,000 civvie lives overall in Europe alone.

[martinexsquaddie]

Germany started the war and showed the world how to carpet bomb citys with there experments in spain.
Tough started the war reap the whirlwind

[martinexsquaddie]

Germany started the war and showed the world how to carpet bomb citys with there experments in spain.
Tough started the war reap the whirlwind

[Kitsune]

Well, it comes down to this:

1) Either it is a justified tactic to drop bombs on cities and to kill civilans, women and children included. In that case, the German Luftwaffe is not to blame

2) Or it is not, because such a kind of warfare that targets women and children has to be regarded as a warcrime. In that case the Germans are guilty...and the British and Americans, too.

As for the Holocaust...neither German Airman attacking Polish or English cities knew about it...nor the British or American bombercrew attacking Dresden or Hamburg.
"They did elect Hitler"? Of the 30.000 civilans killed in the Hamburg raid, or the 40.000 during the Dresden raid, around a third were children. And that does not even take into account that Hitler was elected more than 10 years before that and with less than half of the voters on his side.
"They did start the war?" The majority of the German people did not want the war. Polls made at the time showed it. Read a history book, its the truth. In any case, one crime does not justify another. Guilt is a individual thing, not a collective one.

Just some thoughts.
In the end you have to decide for yourself.

hist 2004 is right of course, the topic is still emotionally charged. For me as well. So lets keep this civil.
Sorry to all who feel offended.

Peace. :D