Military Skiing

[Britboy]

Alright, so the girlfriend's into skiing and I'm up for learning how to as well. I did a few sessions on a dry slope when I was younger, but never carried on with it. Looking forwards to picking it up, wherever we go. Hopefully I do actually pick it up, and don't just plant my face into hillside after hillside with all my usual lack of grace :oops:

This got me thinking, about skiing in the forces.

I know the Germans are big on mountain troops, as are the Italians with their Alpinists, and I'm pretty sure the Finns dapped around on skis to major advantage when the Russkies had a pop at them. Seems they are pretty keen on it even today: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KWMCj9hJc_s&feature=related

But as I am not really clued-up about skiing generally and even less so about skiing as part of winter warfare, is there anyone out there in MP.net-land who has had to ski as part of their military service? Germans, Suomi, Norge? Or any biathalonists? How does it all work?

I mean, surely its not very tactical when you get bumped to have to bend down and take your boots out of your bindings. And surely you have some major balance problems trying to ski with all your kit on.

Can you cross-country ski and still take advantage of great big downhill slopes, like a sports skiier could? What about when it comes to go uphill, you can't sidestep all the way up can you...

Do you need crampons and snowshoes as well for more difficult/deeper-snowed-in areas?

When you all hold on to the rope behind a BV (looks a bit like people on a ski lift) whilst it pulls you along, whats the odds you stumble and get dragged along on your face, holding on for dear life, while your mates laugh away at you until the next waypoint?

Do you ever attack whilst on skis, or as soon as contact breaks out do you ditch them ASAP?

How do you patrol on skis?

I can see how skis could really give you a lot of mobility which'd be immense, especially where ordinary vehicles can't easily go. But they must cause a fair few dramas too, at least while learning!

Cheers for sorting this out!
BB

[domokun]

Do you mean downhill or cross country skiing?

Here in Finland all who do military service will have to unfortunately get to know sweat boards personally. Finnish military issue skis aren't same as civilian cross country skis, they are much wider so those can be used out of pre-made tracks. Those use tying that is quite similar with older style tying but they use normal military issue boots or winter rubber boots instead of skiing boots. Both of mentioned boots have notches in rear of sole and extensions on front of sole for skiing purpose. Finnish military skis are quite bad at downhill skiing and nearly uncontrollable while doing that due to cross counry tying.

Ski marches are unfortunately part of training. In combat skis are mostly removed but they teach how move in combat with skis too.

NaSu + rope?
Getting towed by either of is quite fun actually, it's bit hard for start and if (when) someone falls there will be nice stacking effect, always. My unit used PaSi's instead of NaSu's and we practiced this towing thing just couple times.

[andehbrown]

I've done a bit of civilian ski touring (i.e. off-track cross country skiing) as well as quite a lot of alpine skiing. The ski touring equipment looks very similar to alpine equipment but there are some key differences. The boots for starters allow movement about the ankle to allow a natural walking motion and they are fairly easy to walk in even without skis. These clip into the binding on the ski in the same way as on an alpine ski but the binding is not fixed at the heel allowing it to pivot about the toe binding which allows the walking motion to be transfered to the ski. The skis themselves are pretty similar to a good powder ski but are usually fitted with 'skins' which are a synthetic fabric that attach to the base of the ski, secured at each end. The skins allow the ski to glide in one direction but not move in the opposite direction which makes walking quite easy and because of the friction you can also walk up quite steep hills. For very steep hills you can attach crampons to the ski boot and because of the pivoting action, the crampon only digs in on the trailing foot. Even in deep powder you still get quite good flotation over the snow so I can't imagine there's a need for any other walking equipment such as snow shoes. I'd definitely recommend giving it a go if you get the chance - walking up hill when there's a perfectly servicable lift is more fun than it sounds and you can get to some remarkable off-piste. If you try it it's easy to see how it could be applied to military operations, it certainly makes moving around on the snow a lot easier.

The only point where I think it would come unstuck is the ****e position; not quite sure how that would work.

[L8apex]

Randonnee Skis are our preference. Dynafit planks CF/wood core with Dynafit FT12 bindings.

[Jippo]

I mean, surely its not very tactical when you get bumped to have to bend down and take your boots out of your bindings. And surely you have some major balance problems trying to ski with all your kit on.



It is not very tactical to be bogged down in the snow reaching your waist doing 500 metres per hour. :) With skis cross country in the wilderness is as fast as in summer time, faster in good terrain. And the good thing about the equipment in the winter is the pulk, no need to carry all of it.

Snowshoes are maybe easier to use, but using them consumes a lot of energy.

[Kletterbuxe]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC2F25aOgDs

in german but nice vid...

[JRT]

Alright, so the girlfriend's into skiing and I'm up for learning how to as well. I did a few sessions on a dry slope when I was younger, but never carried on with it. Looking forwards to picking it up, wherever we go. Hopefully I do actually pick it up, and don't just plant my face into hillside after hillside with all my usual lack of grace :oops:

This got me thinking, about skiing in the forces.

I know the Germans are big on mountain troops, as are the Italians with their Alpinists, and I'm pretty sure the Finns dapped around on skis to major advantage when the Russkies had a pop at them. Seems they are pretty keen on it even today: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KWMCj9hJc_s&feature=related


For starters, alpine skiing (downhill skiing) and cross-country skiing are worlds apart. The biggest difference is the boot and bootlock system. In C-C skiing the heel must be able to rise from the ski, while in downhill the heel must be tied to the ski to avoid falling down all the time. The other factor is the sticks, in C-C they must be able to "float" so they can be used to push you forward, while in downhill they are more for balancing around and perhaps give little extra speed when in hard surfaces. The length of the stick for somebody around 180 cm or 6 ft in C-C is around 140-150 cm, while downhill sticks are usually around 100-120 cm or so.



I mean, surely its not very tactical when you get bumped to have to bend down and take your boots out of your bindings. And surely you have some major balance problems trying to ski with all your kit on.


When the alternative is to move tens of kilometres in waist-deep snow with only shoes, sinking up to your balls every time you take a step you don't mind about a single bend to take the boots off the straps. The balance is not really an issue, with training (lots of k's) the added weight is not a balance thing unless carrying really heavy load (30 kg or more).



Can you cross-country ski and still take advantage of great big downhill slopes, like a sports skiier could? What about when it comes to go uphill, you can't sidestep all the way up can you...


With cross-country skis and especially with plenty of carriage you are doomed in steep downhills. If you are towing a sled (ahkio in finnish) with you, it is even more difficult since it doesn't stop as quickly as the skier. In uphills, there are 3 techniques, depending on the slope. Skis pointed forwards, in V-style or sidestepping. I have no experience in mountain climbing with skis but those hills in this part of the world are all climbable with skis.



Do you need crampons and snowshoes as well for more difficult/deeper-snowed-in areas?


Haven't ever climbed with crampons, they are not in use in the FDF. Snowshoes are good for tourists and ppl who have never seen snow but offer little military use compared to skis, which enable a soldier to move significantly faster with lot less energy used. What more, having 10 guys skiing in front of you makes your path rather smooth, having 10 guys walking w/ snowshoes makes the snow crack and even softer, thus getting even more tiring.



When you all hold on to the rope behind a BV (looks a bit like people on a ski lift) whilst it pulls you along, whats the odds you stumble and get dragged along on your face, holding on for dear life, while your mates laugh away at you until the next waypoint?


For the first time, 100%. It gets easier. After a while, the laughter stops and it gets plain frustrating to fall over. With more people in the rope the harder it gets.



Do you ever attack whilst on skis, or as soon as contact breaks out do you ditch them ASAP?


It is difficult to attack whilst on skis but if mastered they offer significant mobility advantage compared to a foot soldier if there are more than 20-30 cm of snow. Have done it both ways.



How do you patrol on skis?


How? Just like walking, but with skis on.



I can see how skis could really give you a lot of mobility which'd be immense, especially where ordinary vehicles can't easily go. But they must cause a fair few dramas too, at least while learning!


I once had a bulgarian born conscript of 28 years of age who had never ski'd before. During the first 8 weeks (basic training period) he fell all the time. Once i heard through the woods him swearing "PERKELE" with a bulgarian accent. While I got there, he told me "a man can take the pain but he cannot take the shame". In the end, he learnt.

For natives, at least outside the capital area, skiing is something done since little kids and comes quite naturally, just as ice skating.

BTW, ski football rocks ass! Take the right ski off and kick-off! Loads of fun and makes you warm in a cold day. Results to small injuries and broken skis sometimes but is sure worth it :D

[IronFinn]

When the alternative is to move tens of kilometres in waist-deep snow with only shoes, sinking up to your balls every time you take a step you don't mind about a single bend to take the boots off the straps. The balance is not really an issue, with training (lots of k's) the added weight is not a balance thing unless carrying really heavy load (30 kg or more).


This brought back painful memories :). We did once a 15km march with full backpacks in deep snow. Most of that journey fades into exhaustion and small moments of gasping of breath. It didn´t help to be told to run as a scout in front of the column from time to time. At that point ambush would have been fairly easy to do because of the over exhaustion. After that skiing was quite the delight.

[JRT]

This brought back painful memories :). We did once a 15km march with full backpacks in deep snow. Most of that journey fades into exhaustion and small moments of gasping of breath. It didn´t help to be told to run as a scout in front of the column from time to time. At that point ambush would have been fairly easy to do because of the over exhaustion. After that skiing was quite the delight.

Yes, after my triple 30 skiing has felt so much easier nowadays.

30+ km
30+ kg
-30C degrees

[L8apex]

For starters, alpine skiing (downhill skiing) and cross-country skiing are worlds apart. The biggest difference is the boot and bootlock system. In C-C skiing the heel must be able to rise from the ski, while in downhill the heel must be tied to the ski to avoid falling down all the time. The other factor is the sticks, in C-C they must be able to "float" so they can be used to push you forward, while in downhill they are more for balancing around and perhaps give little extra speed when in hard surfaces. The length of the stick for somebody around 180 cm or 6 ft in C-C is around 140-150 cm, while downhill sticks are usually around 100-120 cm or so.


This was true prior to 1992. The AT (Alpine Touring or Randonnee) equipment we use marries alpine and cc perfectly.

[Jippo]

Well he is not too far of the mark IMO. Even with the advanced bindings, the requirements of good CC ski & sticks are completely opposite to the downhill ones.

[Britboy]

So if you are using cross country kit and had a large downhill section, would you be best off taking cuts at it from side to side (like people zig-zag up hills when hiking)? Or is there some other method?

And I take it the kit that L8apex describes makes it possible to ski cross country and downhill, with far less dramas?

[pekka elo]

The best way would be to avoid hills altogether. The valleys should offer the best terrain anyways.

If you can't, well, cross country skis are pretty much uncontrollable downhill. So zig-zagging or taking them off would be the best option if one has not enough courage to go straight down. You could try to plow with the skis in a V in front of you but it's difficult in deeper snow.

I've seen photos of alpine troops using specialized "telemark" type skis, which are more suitable for downhill skiing but offer the possibility to travel cross country. However if you run into a firefight with them, you'll have rigid ski boots on, which would be a clear disadvantage.

[domokun]

So if you are using cross country kit and had a large downhill section, would you be best off taking cuts at it from side to side (like people zig-zag up hills when hiking)? Or is there some other method?

And I take it the kit that L8apex describes makes it possible to ski cross country and downhill, with far less dramas?

Or remove those skis if heavily wooded and too steep hill. Walk down and put 'em back on in bottom.

Downhill and cross country skis are different. Compromise is still always worse on both separate tasks. In Finnish terrain cross country skis are lot better than telemark or pure downhill skis. As said those are different in lenght and tying.

Tactically moving on hills is often viability and should be avoided if not looking for higher ground position. It's most visible place often.