Chechen Genocide, Very brutal stuff [Archive]

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RomanS

06-10-2004, 06:52 PM

I knew about this before, and I read some of the people's accounts, and like i said before my mother knew a family from Grozny. They left the war right before the first Chechen war began. She came and stayed with us untill she got her own place. She tolled us some brutal stuff.

Chechens had a license to kill any Slavic, Jewish or non-Chechen living in Chechnya between 1991-1994. Dudaev's people murdered a lot of Russians, and there is plenty of evidence.

After reading the people's accounts, i must say GOD BLESS RUSSIAN ARMY!

here is a source, its in Russian at the moment. But I will translate it in English for you all.

http://web.vrn.ru/piligrim/genocide%20a.htm

http://samara.slavrus.net/library/kavkaz/raby.html

http://kolev3.narod.ru/Books/Chech/prestup.html

http://www.tam.ru/koltso/chechnia2.htm

http://www.russcenter.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=25&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0&POSTNUKESID=c99ed20234912ccde7035b704232dfaa

The following article shouldnt be used to judge the entire region of Chechnya, but it should open your eyes about Chechen independance in the 90s.

I left Grozny in February of 1993 due to constant danger from armed Chechen people, and nonpayment of pension and wages.
I left my condo with almost everyting in it, 2 cars, and my garage. I left with my husband.

In February of 1993, chechens killed my female neighbor on the street by her house. They fractured her head, broke her ribs, and raped her. Another neighbor Elena Ivanovna, a WW2 veteran was killed by the same armed people.

In 1993 the living conditions were horrible, there was murder everywhere. Many cars were blown up with people in them. Russians were fired from many jobs without reasons given to them.

In another apartment near us, Chechens kille a man who was born in 1905. There were 9 stabing wounds in his body, his daughter was raped and killed in the kitchen.

A.Kochedykova, lived in Grozny

In may of 1993 while I was working in my garage, two Chechens armed with an automatic and a pistol atacked me trying to get my car. They couldn’t take the care due to mechanical problems. They shot right above my head.

In the fall of 1993 another armed group of armed Chechens in the most brutal way executed my friend Bolgarski.U. because he refused to give out his Volga car.

Similar cases were all over Chechnya during that time. Because of that, I left Grozny.
B. Efankin, lived in Grozny

In november of 1994 my Chechen neighbors threatened me with a pistol, and threw me off my apartment. They took it over without my premission.
D. Garuryan, lived in Grozny

On July 1st 1994 four Chechen teenagers broke my arm in the area of Krasni Molot factory. I was coming back from work, when they approached me.
P.Kuskov, lived in Grozny

On December 6th and 7th, I was brutally beaten due to my refusal in joining Dudaev’s army as a Ukranian nationalist.
E. Dapkulinets, lived in Chechen-Aul, Grozny

In the summer of 1994 out of my window I witnessed a group of armed Chechens approaching my neighbor Mkrtchan N., and shot him in the foot. After that they took his car and drove it away.
E. Barsukova, lived in Grozny

On the may 6, 1993 in Grozny my husband Tarasov. A.F. was kidnaped by Chechens. He was a metal welder, so they took him away.
G. Tarasova, lived in Grozny

On December 31st 1994 my husband Pogotin V. and my brother Eremin A. was shot by a Chechen sniper, when my husband and brother were moving away dead Russian soldiers.
E. Hobova, lived in Grozny

In September of 1994 I was in my sisters apartment Vishnyakova O.N., when a group of Chechens broke in, brutally beat my son, and took my 12 year old daughter Lena. She never came back. Since 1993 my son was beaten constantly.
N. Trofimova, lived in Grozny

On January 11, 1995, in the Grozny park, Dudaev’s army executed a group of captured Russian soldiers.
V. Ageeva, lived in Petropavlovskii station, Grozny

In august 1992 our neighbors Sarkisyan R.S., and his wife, Sarkisyan Z.S. were brutally tortured and than burned alive.
M. Hrapova, lived in Gudermes

On November 7th 1991 three armed Chechens shot up my cabin, fortenately I lived. In September 1992 were demanding my apartment, and to make a point they threw in a grenade. I took my relatives and left Chechnya.
V. Kobzarev, lived in Grozny area.

My Daughter was coming back home from work, when Chechens forced her to get in the car. She was beaten, raped, and stabed. We had to leave Grozny.
T. Aleksandrova, lived in Grozny

My neighbor who used to work with KGB was kidnaped in the early morning from his own apartment. A few days later his brutally vandalized corpse was found near. I didn’t withness the murder, but heard from my friend O.K. (no adress provided, the account took place in Grozny in 1991)
T. Vdovchenko, lived in Grozny

In Grozny I lived untill November 1992. Dudaev declared an open season on all Russians living in Chechnya. The crimes took place all over the place, and no Chechens were arrested for their crimes. On of the professors from Grozny University was kidnaped, and later found brutally executed. He was killed because he didn’t want to retire.
V. Nazarenko, lived in Grozny

I live in Grozny untill the end of april 1994. I worked on station Kalinovskaya, Naurski district. I was a director of a musical education. At the end of 1993 I was coming back from work. I had to walk because all the buses were stoped. A car pulled next to me (Zhiguli model), an armed Chechen with Kalashnikov came out of the car, and threatened to kill me. He than forced me into the car, brought me to some field, raped and beat me.
O. Shepetilo

My son Zair in June of 1993 was taken as a hostage for ransom. They kept him for 3 weeks untill I paid 1,500,000 rubles ( $3000)
Y. Yunusova

In the spring of 1992 in Grozny on the Dyakova street, the liquor store was robed. In the house of the liqour store owner, Chechens threw a grenade. The grenade killed a man, and his wife had her foot amputated.
M. Potrnyh

I left Grozny in March of 1993. My son was robed 5 times. Once they took all of his clothing. He was also beaten when he was going to school. He had a fractured scull, and they also threatened him with a knife. They beat me up as well. The reason was given because I was simply Russian. One of my son’s teachers was killed. Right before we left, my son’s friend Maksim was murdered.
I. Chekulina

In 1992 in Grozny, an elementary school was attacked. Several kids were taken as hostages, and raped by armed Chechens. In 1993 my schoolmate was kidnaped. In the summer of 1993 when we were leaving, a group of Chechens shot a man in the train station.
V. Minkoeva

In Grozny I worked as a nurse in a children’s hospital N-1. My co-worker Totikova was executed with her whole family. I knew my life was in danger. One time Dudaev with his man came into the hospital, placed us against the walls, and started to scream at us about Russian genocide, when this building use to belong to KGB. They didn’t pay me for 7 months, and in the april of 1993 I left.
V. Komarova

In the Summer of 1994, around 1pm I witnessed an execution on Krushev street. Two Chechens, one Russian, and one Korean were shot. The four executioners were Dudaev’s officers, who brought the victims in the cars.
U. Pletneev

In 1992 unkown people armed with pistol took my friends car, who lived on Chervlennaya station. In 1992 two Chechens armed with a pistol and a knive broke into my neighbors apartment, tied a women, and her older daugher, took their TV, toaster, and ran off. In 1992 on station Chervlennaya my mother was robed by armed Chechens. They took her orthodox cross, and beat her. My brother’s neighbor decided to leave Chechnya in his car Vaz2121, but later was found dead in the river, and his car not far from it.
A. Fedushkin

At the end of August 1992, my grandaughter was kidnaped, and taken away. They later released her. On Assinovka station, in the kidergarden a group of armed Chechens raped all females, and their teachers. Our Chechen neighbor Ynys threatened my son’s life, if he wouldn’t sell his house to him. At the end of 1991 a bunch of armed Chechens broke into my relatives house, and were asking for money. They killed him.
V. Doronina

On August 25th 1992, around midnight, a group of Chechens came to our backyard, and forced my wife to have *** with them. She refused, and was brutally beaten.
S. Akinshin

In the front entrance of a house, some Chechens executed an Armenian, and a Russian local. Russian was killed because he tried to help the Armenian.
N. Lobenko

In march of 1994, in the school where my daughter Natasha worked, a drunk armed Chechen came in, and tried to rape her. My daughter fought back, and escaped. I also witnessed when our neighbors were robed.
T. Zabrodina

My co-worker, a 22 year old girl was executed in fron of my eyes next to our work. I was robed by them, I had the money and I gave them all.
O. Kalchenko

My son was killed on 8.1.95. On 4.1.94 Chechens killed my younger son.
V. Karagedin

They made us take the new Chechen citizenship. If we wouldn’t take it, we would get food they said.
E. Dzuba

In the april of 1993 my apartment was broken into. The Chechens were dressed up in OMON uniform, and took my valubales
O. Borichevski, lived in Grozny

On December 2nd, 1993 around 36th street Staropromislovski district, Grozny five armed Chechens took me as a hostage, and brought me to a garage, beat me up, raped me once. After that they took me to another apartment, where they raped me again.
N. Kolesnikova, lived in Grozny

Our neighbors- family T. (mother, father, son and daughter) were found dead in their house with a brutal signs of murder.
E. Kurbanoca, O.Kurbanova, L.Kurbanov, lived in Grozny

Our neighbors in daughter lost their daughter. Chechens were demanding a ransom.
T. Fefelova, lived in Grozny

In August of 1994, three Chechens came into the house of a family K.(Gudermes). Chechens made the husband to get under the bed, and they raped his 80 year old wife. A week later she died.

My kitchen was set on fire from 30th-31st of december 1994
L. Davidova

I lived in Grozny, right next to the train station. Everyday I saw how Chechens robbed trains. On the night of New Years eve 1995, Chechens came to me and demanded money to buy weapons and ammo.
T. Lisitskaya

On November 2nd 1994, unknown Chechens took my daughter Angela.
K. Zelikina

At the beginning of april 1993, our house was robed (Grozny). At the end of april 1993, Chechens took our car Vas-2109. On May 10th 1994, my husband Bagdasaryan G.Z. was executed with an automatic in his head.
T. Suhorukova

In 1993 armed Chechens robed my house (Novomarevskaya st.). They took all the valuable thing, my mother was tortures with a knife.
A.Rudinskaya

Dudaev’s people took a principle of a school Belyaev V., on Kalinovskaya st. as a hostage. They also took his assistant Plotnikov, and a director of a farm “Kalinovski” Erin. They asked for 12 million rubles, and after not receiving the money, the Chechens executed them all.
V. Bochkareva

On January 13, 1991. Me along with my husband were robed in our apartment by a group of Chechens (Grozny). They took all the valuables, including my ear rings out of my ears.
A.Nefedova

Between December 18-20, 1994 we were brutally beaten by Dudaev’s people because we didn’t want fight for his side.
U. Usachev, F. Usachev

My neighbors – Armenians were constantly being robbed by Chechens. Their 15 year old daughter was raped. In 1993 family of Prohorova P. E. was robed.
E. Kalganova

In the winter of 1992, our and our neighbors houses were taken by a group of Chechens. They forced us out, threating us with automatics. My son and daughter witnessed a murder of our neighbor B. on the street.
A. Lotnikova

In September 1994, two Chechen fighters raped my 19 year old daughter.
M. Vasilieva

In 1991, Dudaev and his man stormed an MVD building in Grozny. They killed all the Russian policeman inside, a collonel, and injured a major. In Grozny Chechens kidnaped a profesor of a University, and later killed him. A group of Armed Chechens broke into my parents house, and using hot iron tortured them. They took 750,000 rubles, and took their car.
Pantereleeva

On the August 2nd 1994, in the middle of a night (Gudermes), tow armed Chechens broke into our house. They cut my mother’s throat, but I fought back, and managed to recognize one of my old Chechen school mate. I came to Chechen MVD, and they tolled me that my life is now in danger, and that my son will be killed. I took all my remaining relatives into Stavropol, and than left Grozny myself.
I. Udalova

In the middle of 1993, daughter of my friend was kidnaped in the car (Grozny). She was later found dead. There were brutal signs of rape. My same friend later was also kidnaped. The Chechens took her to their apartment, and raped her between 15-17 of may 1993. I was atacked in my apartment by probably the same people, but my neighbor an older Chechen, tried to protect me. In September 1993 I was leaving Chechnya, as I witnessed a brutal beating of my friend in the train station. I was also kicked in the face by a Chechen for looking.
V. Fedorova

On August 7th 1994, my co-worker S.U.L with his wife was kidnaped by Chechen army. On August 9th they released the wife to go get money. She said that Chechens brutally beat them, tortured them. On September 5th 1994, vandalized body of her husband S. was found.
N. Zuzina

In 1992, Chechens executed T.V.(1960 date of birth) mother of three kids. Chechens also tortured and executed our neighbors, an older man and his wife. Chechen police refused to look for murderers.
A. Vitkov

IM SORRY, BUT I'm TOO DEPRESSED RIGHT NOW TO TRANSLATE THE REST 36 accounts.

The first war started on the New Year's eve 1995.

Many people ask us, why did Russians soldiers came to Chechnya in first war?

GOD BLESS THEM, and RIP to the innocent

thank you all for attention

Va_Dinger

06-10-2004, 07:10 PM

Have Russian forces comitted "war crimes" during the war? :roll:

RavenW

06-10-2004, 07:10 PM

In a Ruined City, Even the Rubble Is Taken From Them
By SETH MYDANS
The New York Times

Published: June 1, 2004

GROZNY, Russia - There is one green poplar in the row of dead and brittle trees that line a shattered building here, and by coincidence it stands at the only doorway that is not in ruins.

Both have been preserved by some mystery of nature through 10 years of war that have left behind a neighborhood of bombed and uninhabitable piles of brick.

On a bench near the doorway sit some of the women who live here, cracked and chipped by the rough handling of life, warming themselves in the pale sunlight of another spring.

Their main achievement, and still their main pursuit, is that they have stayed alive here in Chechnya through war and cold and hunger and illness, pulling one another along if any lagged behind.

"Nobody else cares about us," said Alla Kharlamova, 60, hovering between tears and anger. "We simply exist."

Her neighbor Viktoria Kuradjan, 76, a tiny woman bent by age like a crooked finger, contributed a sigh, "Hoo, hoo, hoo."

Now the nine women and the two mild and quiet men who live inside with them face a new threat that could cost them their livelihood and even their home.

Thieves have been carting away their bricks.

Having lost everything else, this little group of mismatched neighbors is living off the rubble that has collapsed around them, cleaning and selling the bricks, one by one.

A new breed of entrepreneur, the brick dealer, has emerged in Grozny, buying up good quality bricks like theirs for a ruble apiece, or about three cents.

At that rate, nine bricks will buy a loaf of bread. Eighteen bricks will buy a dozen eggs. Twenty-five bricks will buy a carton of pasteurized milk. Ten bricks will pay for the bus ride to and from the market.

"Ten rubles," Ms. Kuradjan said. "That's very big money. For me, even one is a lot."

Rubble is now the main natural resource of this battered city, including the remains of the oil refinery and factories that flourished here before the war. An iron beam can pay to fix a leaking roof. Children search the ground as they walk, looking for bits of metal.

Once, a brick dealer with a truck bought 1,600 bricks from the women who live here - a moment they still describe with wonder.

More often, though, robbers carry off their bricks at night.

"We say, 'Don't take them! This is our building,' " Ms. Kharlamova said. "But they take them anyway."

A small, trembling woman in rubber boots and a head scarf, she sometimes stands sentry over the bricks as if that could make a difference.

"They threaten me," she said. "They told me, 'Look out, or you'll find your head in a tree.' "

Larisa Abdurahmanova, 40, a former nurse, once took an iron bar and a bottle of vinegar, the only weapons at hand, and chased away a group of robbers.

" 'You old grannies don't need anything, but we need the money,' " she said they told her. "I stood in front of them and said, 'Shoot me!' "

Not long ago a paramilitary group known for kidnapping and torture wanted to take possession of a basement at the far end of the broken building.

"I thought, 'What do they want a basement for?' No! No way," Ms. Abdurahmanova said. She said she told the men, "Over my dead body," and they backed off, hauling away some bricks as they went.

By truckload and wheelbarrow, the ruined building where this group lives is growing smaller.

"One day a woman came with a folder of papers and very officially said, 'Get out. We are knocking down your home,' " Ms. Abdurahmanova said. "We said, 'Where are we supposed to go?' She said, 'I have no idea.' "

At this point, half of the building's 36 apartments have been demolished and more may follow.

If they are forced to move, the little family here will leave behind the grave of a man named Viktor Marsak, one neighbor who did not survive the war.

"He died of cold and hunger, even though I gave him the same as I gave myself," Ms. Abdurahmanova said, wiping her eyes. "He always said, 'I'm helpless, Larisa, help me.' I wanted to bury him with his mother but it was too dangerous to go around and look for her grave in the cemeteries."

Once, when the fighting was heavy, they took in a neighbor who was almost blind.

"We cut wood for a fire and melted snow for water," Ms. Abdurahmanova said. "The wind was blowing through the window. Then there was shooting. We didn't know what to do. We hugged each other. I fainted."

Soldiers came and aimed their guns at the blind man. "Stop!" the women shouted. "He's blind!"

As the soldiers took him away to a hospital, Ms. Abdurahmanova said, he called back to her, "Larechka, my little daughter, when I can see again I'll look for you."

Last winter, the struggle to keep living became too much for Ms. Kharlamova and she decided to die. Her neighbors banged on her door and shouted.

"Alla, open up!"

"No, I won't open."

In the end, she accepted a glass of honey and milk.

"I have allergies," she explained. "It's hard to breathe."

Now a new stray has come to join the clan, Yaha Gaziyeva, who was abandoned by her husband three years ago along with her daughter, Diana, who is now 8.

Since then, mother and daughter had been supporting themselves by foraging for bricks and scrap on the territory of the ruined oil refinery.

Diana, a beautiful girl with steady, wide-set eyes, is sick. Her blond hair is turning gray and there are strange blotches on her skin that darken in sunlight. Sometimes she says she feels that she is choking.

When she comes home from school, she lies down as Ms. Abdurahmanova gives her an intravenous drip.

Doctors say they think Diana was poisoned by toxic pollutants as she collected bricks with her mother.

RomanS

06-10-2004, 07:13 PM

we are discussing PRE-WAR 1990-1995

and why Russians went there.

RomanS

06-10-2004, 07:15 PM

And this is DURING THE WAR

check this out

http://www.intellnet.org/resources/chechen_terrorists/

at least this has VIDEOS and PHOTOS to prove it

RavenW

06-10-2004, 07:29 PM

Have Russian forces comitted "war crimes" during the war?

Perhaps, but so did American, British and Soviet troops during WWII.

Nevertheless, it does not make their fight for liberation of Europe less noble. War is war, and mistakes and abuses happend during ANY armed conflict. Still, there is one side we call AXIS and there is another side we call ALLIES.

RomanS

06-10-2004, 07:33 PM

Have Russian forces comitted "war crimes" during the war? :roll:

Im sure it happens in every single WAR.

However, a photo is worth a thousand words.
A video- a million.

Remember what happened with Iraqi prsisioner situation. The released photos. People went nuts. They released videos, a whole world got pissed.

I'm not saying that I support what happened to those prisioners. I do say that if we compare how American prisioners were treated. HOLLY ****, thats night and day. GO USA

But its not the point.
I am yet to see a photo, or a video of Russians murdering Chechen civilians (90,000 they say ?)

How ever, we do see photos, and 400+ hours of Chechen terrorism.
Explain please

American Patriot

06-10-2004, 07:38 PM

BARF..... those videos are sick.

SwissGrenadier

06-10-2004, 07:42 PM

the chechens are a bunch of sick savages

Operation Ivy

06-10-2004, 08:03 PM

I am yet to see a photo, or a video of Russians murdering Chechen civilians (90,000 they say ?)

So u think that Russians didnt do anything to the Chechens?

and on topic
Those vids were pretty nasty, and what the Chechens did to all those people is horrible :|

RavenW

06-10-2004, 08:10 PM

The problem as I see it...

It's not about terrorism, abuses, war crimes.

Those happen everywhere.
Every nation has some bad sheep that during armed conflict abuse their position and beat, mistreat prisoners, torture and rape women, commit acts of vandalism and/or terrorism.

But it is about how government reacts to such incidents, what does it do to prevent their accurence and how does it reazct to its own terrorist acts.

In other words, there are NO saints in any war, but one side takes lessons from some bad accidents and tries to deal with it in mature and civilized manner - bringing perpetrators to justice, explaning the importance of humanism to its own troops, control and police, enforces military conduct and, if neccessary, tries those individualts... This is a case of Israel, Russia, USA, Britain.

And there is a side that does virtually nothing to prevent war crimes, crimes against humanity, act of terrorism and/or vandalism, mistreatment and abuse of prisoners, as well as full disregard for military standards, conduct and codes of war.
Or even worse supports terrorists, encourage their combatants to commite war crimes/crimes against humanity, provide financial and military support to terrorists, logistic support to terrorists, and do its outmost to prevent other side to bring the evil-doers to justice. In other words, serve as terrorist and criminal haven for evil-doers.
Such is the case of Palestinians, Chechens, Iraqis, Hezbollah, Iran, Somalia.

And last, there is a third side that is worse than evil-doers themselves. Under the cover of 'neutrality' it watches and sometimes protects/supportws of evil-doers. It commites humerous atrocities when it is involved in armed conflict. But then very often forget its own crimes and plays double standard when it comes to deal with the Jews, Russians, Americans.
Such is the case of Europe, who has it won share of abuses and horrible crimes against humanity.

This side either don't understand the difference between the sides and the sides' approach to terrorism/abuses problem, or simply does NOT want to understand. (pretend not to understand and differentiate between the sides, continues to play the game of 'neutrality', until it is clear that Allies will win over evil).

This group is the most disgusting group to my view. As Persian philosopher once said: "Neutrality is one of the forms of evil. It does not fights it, thus helping it to exist.".

obd

06-10-2004, 08:17 PM

Hate to break it to all of you guys, but it goes both ways....Russian troops have license to rape, murder, and rob any non Russian in Chechnya. Foir example, Pravda did a piece years ago on the number of Russian troops brought to trial for war crimes in Chechnya.....And the number was significant but almost ZERO actually face any punishments.... A big deal was made about the trials but then quitely the men were let free under "temporary insanity" and even some of the rapists and killers were let back into the armed forces!!!!!!

It happens daily....There are daily reports, daily pictures, daily video's......The Chechen violence is merely a response to outright Russian brutality in Chechnya.......After all, just take a look at pictures of Grozny (or any other major Chechen city that was bombed to the ground) on this very webpage....or any other.....You will see that the capital looks like it was bombed and shelled to the ground because it WAS!!! And thousands of trapped civilians were sufficated, burried, and burned alive by Russian bombs. If that happened to your city, you might just retaliate....If your mother was crushed to death as the Russians indescriminately bombed your city and shot innocent women maybe you would take up arms to fight the invaders!!

Interestingly, there are a great many reports from Russians living in Grozny during the first war of Chechens taking care of them and shielding them from Russian rape squads who could care less whether the peice of hot ass meat they found was Russian or Chechen.......The usual thing to happen was for them to gang rape her and either kill her or if she was a Muslum the shame would cause her to kill herself or to be "honor killed" by her family........and of course horny drunk Russian conscripts couldnt care less about that......

Of course it is true that Chechens did kill Russians.......I am not denying that...But to say "bastard Chechens" and ignore the fact that Russian federal troops have killed many tens of thousands of innocent men, women, and children in the course of the Chechen wars is hypocracy at its worst.........

Just run a google search on "Chechnya" and you will find TONS of webpages from official and private sources with no vested intererest in lying about the truth of whats going on in Chechnya.......like Russian memners and any Chechen members on this board.....

I am niether Russian or Chechen...My mother is English and my father is Irish... I have no relation that is Russian at all.......I have no vested interest in taking sides......I merely looked at the information and came to my own conclusions........

What Russian did to Chechnya and the Chechen people marks as one of the greatest war crimes of this century........period.....What Cechens do to innocent Russians is equaly barbaric.....

Like I said, you can call the Chechens brutal all you want, and I will agree with you 100%, but at least try to look at it from both sides......At least get information from outside sources and not former Russian soldiers with combat xp in Chechnya!!! For gods sake I cant think of a worse source for impartiality then the very men accused of committing such crimes!!!!

StukaJr

06-10-2004, 08:22 PM

So u think that Russians didnt do anything to the Chechens?

People are continiously missing the point - armed chechens ran attrocities for 4 years before russian army stormed Grozny... Four years! Displacing, murdering and kidnapping hundreds of thousands of peaceful residents and those simply traveling through the region.

To answer your quiestion - I am not aware of russians causing any attrocities in Northern Kavkaz in the period of 1990 to late 1994. How can you excuse acts of attrocities in 1991 by what supposedely happens almost a decade later??? I'm sick and tired of listening to "violence begets violence" nonscense - apparently, letting attrocities rage on for 4 years doesn't exactly solve sh1t either!

Russian government does not kidnap people and holds them for ransom! Russian government does not enslave people and trades them like livestock! Think next time you post "but russia does this as well..." nonscense!

StukaJr

06-10-2004, 08:34 PM

Hate to break it to all of you guys, but it goes both ways....Russian troops have license to rape, murder, and rob any non Russian in Chechnya.

I would like to see that "liscense", OBD...

First of all, out of two sides - the russian army at least has its system of checks and military tribuneral, command system and its own military police! You may paint everything with grey paint and argue that the system is nothing but a show, but please do remember that the "duhks" have nothing but anarchy in store! How many russian soldiers were prosecuted for crimes and how many "dukhs" were prosecuted by their own? Almost every allegation against russian troops - "masked men with guns"... Oh - that could be about anybody!

Do not forget, at this point, this is far not russians vs chechens! There are more chechens on the side of the Federal government than there are "duhks" running around in the mountains.

I can promise you one thing - when the "duhks" stop existing - all these attrocities against civilian population will stop happening! Russian Soldiers have been in Chechnya for hundreds of years - during Soviet Times and before then, in the Russian Empire... It's very shady how all these attrocities began happening with the rise of islam extremists!

RomanS

06-10-2004, 08:38 PM

Kilgor

06-10-2004, 08:45 PM

Bombtrack

06-10-2004, 09:01 PM

the militant chechens are ****ing disgusting

Valuk

06-10-2004, 09:26 PM

Or even worse supports terrorists, encourage their combatants to commite war crimes/crimes against humanity, provide financial and military support to terrorists, logistic support to terrorists, and do its outmost to prevent other side to bring the evil-doers to justice. In other words, serve as terrorist and criminal haven for evil-doers.
Such is the case of Palestinians, Chechens, Iraqis, Hezbollah, Iran, Somalia.

Good post

What its all about!

Keep it up Russia.

Oh my God! How old are you? :roll: I am ashame of myself, just arguing with you, but Ill do it anyway. Even the articles above say that Russians were occupying Chechenya for centuries. WHY? Do they have some right to own their land or sth.? I want explanation for that. Don't you think they would stop with their brutalities if Russians withdrew!?! What would you as an American do if your country was still only a part of British Empire, just one of the colonies. Would you be a terrorist if jou would fight against the occupiers? Use your head! Imperialism provokes resistance. Even if the cause to liberate iraqis was just, some of them see it as ocupation. Till recently the resistance was called fighting for freedom in the SAME WAY GEORGE WASHINGTON DID (my respect to him). Now, because of your "democratic" media it is called terrorism. It is terrorism in some cases, but why? Because there is no other way sometimes? There can be no frontal engagement, therefore... Both sides kill civilians, don't they? Say they don't, please... So that makes every fu..ing battle in the history of mankind a terrorist act? in ww2 Germans killed civilians, Italians did, Japaneese, Allied bombers and artillery,... Why isn't French resistance in ww2 called a terorist organization? Same goes for the partisans; and they too did comit attrocities, they too did kill injured and captured Germans etc.

Who is to blame for that? Did Chechens invade Russia centuries ago? Are all west-oriented people in Poland, East Germany, Czech rep., Hungary, baltic states, Finland (ww 2 and before) who wanted to get out of Soviet grip during cold war only terrorist for you? During the Nam, nobody called Vietcong and NVA a terrorist organization, why so today?

It is called asymetric warfare, my dear children! Read about it and then make comments about who deserves what!

Sorry, but it makes me very angry when people use only one perspective!

RavenW

06-10-2004, 09:39 PM

Did Chechens invade Russia centuries ago?

Yes.

Are all west-oriented people in Poland, East Germany, Czech rep., Hungary, baltic states, Finland (ww 2 and before) who wanted to get out of Soviet grip during cold war only terrorist for you?

No.

During the Nam, nobody called Vietcong and NVA a terrorist organization, why so today?

If Nam began to target American civilians in manner that Chechnes do today - they would be called terrorists.

In other words, if Vietnam guerilla fighters began a campaign of suicide bombings across America,

then they would take civilians (precisely PREGNANT women) in American smalltown hospital as hostages,

then if Nam would take hostages in the middle of theatrical show in Washington DC,

then if Vietnamese would destroy several high rise apartment buildings in the middle of New York (like Chechen jihadists did in the middle of Moscow),

then if Vietnam milita began to kidnap American civilians just for slave labor and money ransome,

then if Nam would be heavily envole in human slave trafficing, mafia and narco-bussiness

and then when Vietnam 'fighters' would start to blow up American AmTrek trains and New York and LA subways,

BELIEVE ME Americans would call them TERRORISTS as Russians call Chechen Islamic militia - a terrorists organization.

StukaJr

06-10-2004, 09:40 PM

Oh my God! How old are you? :roll: I am ashame of myself, just arguing with you, but Ill do it anyway. Even the articles above say that Russians were occupying Chechenya for centuries. WHY? Do they have some right to own their land or sth.? I want explanation for that. Don't you think they would stop with their brutalities if Russians withdrew!?!!

Ummm... Chechnya was given autonomy in 1997 with russian troops withdrawing - what did they do with it but not start another conflict some 3 years later? Also, if you weren't an uneducated troll - you would have remembered that Chechnya is currently governed by the Chechen federal government - opposed by Islamic extremists and foreign mercenaries... Isn't it contradictory to war for independance to have majority of your figters to be paid foreign nationals???

What right do you have to live on the land where you live right now? National borders change from decade to decade, not speaking of centuries - Nations come and go, unions form and fall apart... One should be given to live in any part of the planet without fearing having his head cut off just because of the ethnicity... So called "occupied" Chechnya had many nationals living on the same land - until some murdering extremists decided they wanted to start "cleansing" of the land from unbelivers...

Kilgor

06-10-2004, 09:46 PM

You can stick your "asymetric warfare" up your arse.

Its simply a euphemism for dirty, cowardly, murderous Islamic terrorism.

Id love to know how blowing up innocent women and children on a bus with no military goal is considered warfare

RavenW

06-10-2004, 09:49 PM

Terrorism - a deliberate/intentional act of violence where civilians are the main target of the attack.

Precisely, what Palestinian, Chechen, Iraqi and Mogadishu 'fighters' are involved in.

RomanS

06-10-2004, 09:51 PM

Kilgor

06-10-2004, 09:52 PM

,... Why isn't French resistance in ww2 called a terorist organization? Same goes for the partisans; and they too did comit attrocities, they too did kill injured and captured Germans etc.

as far as ive read, the french didnt go around with bombs and blowing themselves up on german busses in the name of allah and 72 virgins.

And you cant tell the difference, your not worth wasting time on .

RavenW

06-10-2004, 09:53 PM

When ever you in Arizona, beer is on me mate!

Thanks. :)

And you cant tell the difference, your not worth wasting time on.

Good one, Kilgor! woot
Don't waste your life's time on some brain dead morons who have no life outside of Internet form.

All right, I'm off to gym! Se ya... :D

Secret Squirrel

06-10-2004, 10:16 PM

Terrorism - a deliberate/intentional act of violence where civilians are the main target of the attack.

Precisely, what Palestinian, Chechen, Iraqi and Mogadishu 'fighters' are involved in.

Iraqis are mainly targeting civies? As you know, there are numerous groups now in Iraq, so you're going to have to be more specific when you say Iraqis (ie. the fake ones or the real ones and which groups).

Valuk

06-10-2004, 10:21 PM

WTF, I know they are terrorists, I know they kill innocent people, but why?

There are many many muslim extremists everywhere for sure. But, I hate the idea that Russia, which measures like 20mln sqkm, takes the right to own a nation for granted! Autonomous republic, my ass, I know how that looks like, we had that in former Yugoslavia and believe me, it depresses people. Man, Russians politicans don't care even for their people, their army or their civilians. life in SU or Russia wasn't and isn't worth a lot, believe me!
Did you ever hear of Lavrenty Pavlovich Beria? Type that into google and you'll know what I am speaking about. Anyone who doesn't know that name shouldn't speak about Russia, SU or their neighboring countries!

Do you know who Ivan Grozny is? He was a Russian Czar, his name Grozny denoting Terrible in Slavic languages... I wont explain why...
Chechens were always treated very badly by the Russians, therefore Chechens just GOT PISSED OF rightfully! Therefore, their cruel way of fighting and killing people has roots in long history of genocide.

Take Baltic states as an example! In 50 or so years of Soviet Union, the population statistics changed completely. Russians sent their people to live there, so that today Riga, the capital city has more than 50% of Russians! And Europe is not a melting pot, like USA is, remember that!
Stalin moved the entire population of Chechenya to Siberian camps so that later Hruschev, I believe, allowed them back! Do you people know about Russian work camps, do you know about their agricultural settlements under Stalin? Things I am writting about are one of the darkest sides of human history so I understand what forced Chechen people into this.

Last but not the least. One Slovenian war reporter, Valentin Areh his name, was the only reporter who managed to get into Grozny on his own during the siege. His articles were published in our magazines and they are horrible things to hear about, both sides are to blame for them. Russians used Smerch MLRS to kill civilians!! Valentin was also acompaning first troops that entered Kabul in 2003.

Va_Dinger

06-10-2004, 10:28 PM

Valuk

06-10-2004, 10:36 PM

By the way! Don't think I hate Russians for what they were doing in their history. They, beside their neigbours, were the ones who suffered the most from the cruelty of their czars, tens of millions of dead innocent people prove that!
Russian cultural achievements are IMO unsurpassed in the world. Russian Literature, Balet, Music, Sports, Architecture, Poetry, Mathematics, Physics, name it! When I was studying one semester in London, the most spoken language in the laboratories was Russian because most of the assistants there were Russians. Thankfully I can speak Russian, too! ;)

До свидания!

RomanS

06-10-2004, 10:48 PM

SeanAshi

06-10-2004, 10:56 PM

I give props to the Russians for killing terrorist scum like Barayev, Khatabb, Abu al-Walid al-Ghamd. woot

RavenW

06-10-2004, 11:06 PM

Did you ever hear of Lavrenty Pavlovich Beria?

I've not only heard about him, but (unfortunately for my family) know quiet enough of what he did. As well as his predescessors - Dzerzhinsky, Menzhinsky, Yagoda, Ezhov.

Hopefully, I will work on my Doctorate in Russian History in next few years. I think I will probably concentrate on Russian Revoltution and Civil war.

I still did not pick up the topic for dissertation, but I was thinking of something like "Kirov's work in Tomsk's underground" - "Работа Кирова в Томской подпольной организации большевиков".

До свидания!

Всего хорошего!

UkrainianAmerican

06-10-2004, 11:11 PM

RavenW, horosho po russki sharish p-)

RavenW

06-10-2004, 11:18 PM

А как же?! ;) p-)

Valuk

06-10-2004, 11:37 PM

An interview with Valentin Areh, a Slovenian war correspondent who survived a tortuous escape out of Kosovo in 1999 during NATO’s war to expel Serbian forces.

The first day after war started the Yugoslav government expelled all journalists from Kosovo.

I didn’t know this because I had not heard the news. At the time I was staying in Slotina, a small village near Pristina airport, filming the bombardments.

On the second morning of the war, Serbian forces began shooting at the houses because they were starting to ethnically cleanse the area. It was terrifying — and that was when I started to question what I was doing in such a dangerous place.

But I convinced myself that everything would be fine. I had very good contacts with Serbian and Albanian guerrilla fighters, so I believed I would be safe.

Serbian forces surrounded the village. I was scared because I was illegal in the country, and also for the family whose house I was staying in. I was especially frightened for the kids and the women.

To protect the family, and also to protect myself, I decided to leave the village, and go to the police in Pristina and pretend I was lost. I knew a high Commander at the police station who I knew would help me. Since there were no phones working I decided to drive and to hide my tapes in my pockets.

When I arrived in Pristina I saw a lot of dead bodies on both sides of the road and I realised how dangerous this was for me.

I found the city centre completely empty except for some police and military units on street corners. I parked my car and I walked to the Police building. I asked a policeman if my contact was there. He said “No, he’s not; he’s on the battlefield. But he’ll be back in ten minutes. Wait here!”

While I waited, an Intelligence Officer of the Secret Police came past, and because I was dressed in a flak jacket, thought I was part of the paramilitary.

But, on hearing me speak Serbo-Croatian he accused me of being a spy and refused to accept I was a journalist. He ordered two men to take me into the garden and kill me. The men started to beat me.

As they took me down the stairs towards the garden, I looked out of the window and saw black bags, which I realised contained bodies. It was then I realised they would never let me go. I had seen too much already.

Just then, the high Commander I had come to see suddenly appeared out of nowhere. He asked me in astonishment, “What the hell are you doing here?” I was in such shock I couldn’t say anything to him. He vouched for me as a journalist, but my captors did not want to believe it. So for two minutes, which felt like ten hours, I listened to them discussing and arguing over my fate. All the while I was thinking about the amazing co-incidence of meeting the commander on the stairs: “What would have happened if this Commander had entered the building ten minutes later?”

They agreed to let me go back two Slovenia, and advised me to use the long route via Macedonia, even though it meant going through Bulgaria and Hungary. But, I thought it would far quicker to go through Montenegro. They assented to this, but refused to give me government guarantees of safe conduct. But I was so happy to have survived. And, as they hadn’t searched me, my tapes were also safe.

On the road, I passed a village that was completely surrounded by Serbian militia. But the strangest thing happened. The paramilitary just looked at me, looked at my car, and nobody stopped me, or shot at me. I just passed through the front line, and sped on. I believe this was some kind of miracle.

I eventually drove to the centre of Mitrovica, and saw a mass of people on the streets. Serbian paramilitary special forces were beating them. A soldier saw my Slovenian plates, opened my door and pulled me out and demanded, “Who are you?”

I told him I was a Slovenian television journalist, and had permission to travel from his intelligence officers in Pristina.

He disappeared with my passport, and then a group of militia started to beat me. I heard some shots, and thought they were shooting at me, but I realised they were shooting at some Albanian refugees, who they killed. I saw the blood on the pavement and I thought, “Oh ****, I’m a witness to this. Now they’ll never let me go.”

The soldier who had taken my passport came back. He said, “Here’s your passport. Go away! We’ve checked with Pristina, everything is OK.” But I was told I couldn’t go on the Montenegro road because they were “cleaning the land.” They meant ethnic cleansing. Instead they directed me to the Bosnian border on another road.

I eventually arrived at the Bosnian border and was stopped by a police officer. When I explained I was journalist, things turned nasty. His colleague started to beat me, and my thought was “No, not this again. Please, not again.” I was 10 metres from the border and freedom.

I was then told my car was going to be searched. I felt very scared by this, as, due to exhaustion, I had forgotten to hide my tapes. They found one cassette in the car and I was arrested again. The other tapes were in my back pocket of my trousers.

I was taken into the police building and told I was going to be executed as a spy. The policeman put the gun on the desk and said, “OK, do you have anything else to say to us before we kill you?”

I replied that I did not know anything. So they put the gun to my head. My only thought was, OK, it’s over. I had survived this far, but there was no one to help me out of this situation.

But then the policeman said, “I’ll leave you for two hours. Maybe you’ll think about something you should tell us — and maybe we will not kill you.”

All night four men came every hour to ask me the same questions: Where I’d been? Who were my contacts? I was afraid to say anything, so I kept quiet.

I was also terrified they would find my tapes. My bags had been searched, and I had been frisked, but for some reason, my back pocket where my tapes were hadn’t been searched.

On the third night of my captivity, I asked if I could go to the toilet outside. They warned me not to try and escape or they would kill me immediately. I went as near to the border as I could and threw all my tapes away. Even though I knew it was safer for me to be without them, I felt very sad about destroying the very things that I had risked my life for.

The following morning they put a gun to my head again as they played the tape they had found in my car. It contained shots of the Albanian village and house I had stayed in near Pristina. I was mortified because I realised the implications for the families of that village.

Albanians helping journalists was like being spies. It was very clear to me — they would be killed for this. At that moment, I saw images of their children, of their women, of those guys who helped me. It felt I had personally killed them.

For some reason, the policeman didn’t pull the trigger. All he said was, “OK, maybe I will not kill you.” He went away and again there were more interrogations.

I was taken to another police station, where the Chief of Police questioned me. He was a really nice man, and offered me a sandwich, and told me I was going to be OK. I was so relieved, but then I asked myself, “How will I survive? How can I live knowing that because of me, the Albanian family would be killed.”

But the interrogations continued for several hours. I think now that it was a game to scare me, but I didn’t think that at the time. I was sure it was only a matter of time before I would be killed. It feels terrible when you realise that you’re going to die.

Then another miracle happened. For no apparent reason, they released me. I was terrified it was some kind of joke, or a trap. But I got into my car and drove to the border. And nobody stopped me. At that moment I had tears in my eyes. I had actually survived. I couldn’t believe it.

I headed toward Sarajevo. And once again was stopped and arrested — this time by Bosnian Serb military. I was told I had escaped from Yugoslavia and would have to appear before a military court in Pristina.

I was bundled into the back of a police car, and because of exhaustion, I fell asleep. When I awoke the car was empty, so I took my chance and ran even though I had no idea whether I was in Serbia, Bosnia or Kosovo.

After two days and one night, I was so hungry and so depressed I decided to give myself up. I walked onto a road and flagged down a car, which happened to be going to Sarajevo. Two hours later we were in the city.

I found a hotel and I slept for two days. It was after that that my nightmare started. I’d survived but I carried such enormous guilt that I was unable to contact my family, work colleagues, or friends to tell them I was safe.

I decided to go to visit a girl in Mostar. She was a journalist who had been arrested and beaten, and now was working as a war correspondent. I stayed with her for three days, and we talked for 24 hours. It was after that I felt able to make contact with my family and my Slovenian work colleagues.

On my return to Ljubljana, my boss allowed me time to recover from what had happened, but I couldn’t sleep because of fear. Every vehicle that passed sent a shock through me; it became a Serbian vehicle. My imagination also kept telling me that someone would come for me. And there was this enormous question — why had I survived when others were killed?

It felt as if I had been destroyed mentally and psychologically — which, in my opinion, is much worse than physical destruction. My life was worth nothing. I couldn’t work. I couldn’t study. I had no meaning to my life. I lost 14 kilos in a very short space of time.

After a month of feeling so depressed, I knew I had to go back to Kosovo and check what had happened to close Albanian friends who I had advised to stay rather than flee. At the beginning of war I believed that although dreadful things had happened in Bosnia, Serbia was different. The Serbians were an educated people and I could not believe them capable of committing such atrocities. But I now realised that I had probably signed my friends’ death warrants by advising them to stay. At least I had to report what was happening in Kosovo. I felt I owed them that much.

On my first night, I went to the Serbian front line in Kosovo and although we were in a very dangerous situation, nobody was killed. That was the first time in a month I felt happy; happy I had survived.

I stayed a month and a half until the end of the war, which enabled me to get my confidence back. But although I was happy to be living again, I was still worried as to how I would be able to live with the sin of inadvertently killing my friends.

But, to my amazement, I discovered that after the Serbians left Kosovo, these friends had actually survived. The effect of this incredible news was instantaneous. In one minute I completely re-built my psychology and myself; that was the greatest therapy.

Since then I have counted my blessings every day.

http://www.dartcenter.org/media/images/portraits/areh_valentin_02.jpg
p-)

born_to_love

06-10-2004, 11:40 PM

after reading this why dont you evacuate all the russians and napalm chechnya

RIP

Valuk

06-10-2004, 11:55 PM

Last but not the least. One Slovenian war reporter, Valentin Areh his name, was the only reporter who managed to get into Grozny on his own during the siege. His articles were published in our magazines and they are horrible things to hear about, both sides are to blame for them. Russians used Smerch MLRS to kill civilians!! Valentin was also acompaning first troops that entered Kabul in 2003.

Your friend Valentin should start an academy of suvival. He manged to get out of this whole mess alive? He must be good, and sneaky. I mean Russian soldiers kill by thousands everyday. They use Smerch, Buratino, SU-25s to shell the country.

Valentine should seriously teach some of those Chechen civilians on how to go to the front lines, run with the Chechen fighters, and live to tell his TRUE stories.

/sarcasm off

On the contrary, my friend, They taught Valentin how to survive in that place. He earned their respect by saving the life of a wounded woman during the Smerch shelling, when he carried her inside a bunker, he told.
Rarely can you find such reporters these days, the days of embeded "reporting". The war in Chechnya was his 7th war! By now, he reported from 13 different wars in all.

He reported from Kosovo during Allied Force, when he was with the KLA!!

He was one of the first reporters to enter Kabul in 2003. he joined an armoured coloumn that rode into the city, when he thought they were just on a recon mission :)

His footage is often the only one available worldwide. He used to work for the Associated Press, now he works for our american owned POP TV, reporting from middle east.

he reported from the Israely siege of Jenin. He was with The Bosnian and Croatian army for many months during the 90's, reporting from the trenches, living and dying with the guys. he was a member of the Bosnian SF Swan brigade. He wrote a book about Afganistan, awarded by some international awards for its nonpartial views. He wrote many articles for our defense mags in Slovenia. Pitty they are not online, though :(

His words are always from the lower, human perspective, not the one we get daily. Respect p-)

http://24ur.com/media/images//extra/Apr2003/2024033.jpg

http://24ur.com/media/images//large/Nov2001/4443.jpg

http://24ur.com/media/images//large/Nov2001/4154.jpg

RavenW

06-11-2004, 12:12 AM

he reported from the Israely siege of Jenin.

it would be interesting to hear what did he actually report from the "siege of Jenin"... :roll:

Abbyy

06-11-2004, 02:17 AM

life in SU or Russia wasn't and isn't worth a lot, believe me!

Do you ever been in Russia? :)

Did you ever hear of Lavrenty Pavlovich Beria? Type that into google and you'll know what I am speaking about. Anyone who doesn't know that name shouldn't speak about Russia, SU or their neighboring countries!

Yes, we know who he was. And what? BTW send my greets to Saakashvili - Beria was Georgian. :)

Do you know who Ivan Grozny is? He was a Russian Czar, his name Grozny denoting Terrible in Slavic languages... I wont explain why...

Grozny have many meanings depending on context. Also: redoubtable, formidable, stern. And what? I should respond to you with nicknames of Western lords?

Chechens were always treated very badly by the Russians, therefore Chechens just GOT PISSED OF rightfully! Therefore, their cruel way of fighting and killing people has roots in long history of genocide.

Also Russian were always threated very badly by the Chechens. So according to you we have right to do any cruel things mentioned here.

Russians used Smerch MLRS to kill civilians!!

You may be do not have good knowledge of english. This can excuse you. Otherwise you're just a stupid mongrel. Russian used Smerch to supress fighters' resistance in area. Unfortunately they hit civilians too. But you 're accusing them in purposeful killing of civilians! Moron!

Rebel 7

06-11-2004, 02:22 AM

That is some sick sh_t. When I asked a relative of mine who was in the Northern Alliance during the Taliban reign which group in the Taliban were the most ruthless, he said, the Arabs, Chechens, and Pakistanis (in that order). I have no pity for these Chechen terrorists and whatever other group tortures and kills (with intent) civilians and children and they deserve whatever hell unleashes upon them.

The clip with the little girl and little boy really got to me. http://www.intellnet.org/resources/chechen_terrorists/4.html

Can somebody provide any further details about them and what they endured? She says Ismail pulled out her hair. Can somebody provide details on this bastard (Ismail) and elaborate upon the story surrouding the torture of the little girl and boy? Thanks in advance.

WolverineBlue

06-11-2004, 02:35 AM

And I take back everything bad I ever said about Permskii -- sorry about my ignorance.

ariweiner

06-11-2004, 03:14 AM

ariweiner

06-11-2004, 03:17 AM

Short and sweet:

The rights of a nation for self-determination

A commentary from a proutistic perspective

By Ac. Sandiipananda Avt.

Chechnya is ravaged by war for the second time in five years. Some people say that Russia’s so-called anti-terrorist campaign against Chechen rebels is justified, while others maintain that this time Russian leaders have gone too far.

From the outset it remains to be questioned if this military campaign can truly be justified as a counter-terrorist measure. The terrorist acts that Russia suffered are yet to be resolved. The investigation still continues and so far no clear evidence has been put forward by the authorities. Although the involvement of Chechen nationals in the terrorist acts is likely, the men arrested are yet to be linked to the bombings. The apartments of the men arrested were searched several times without yielding any result. Only after the fifth search did the police suddenly find a weapon lying under the bed of one of the accused. There is strong suspicion that the police planted the weapon. But even finding a gun is no clear evidence for manufacturing bombs. It comes as no surprise that the men arrested are Chechens. Being under enormous pressure, it appears that the police is ready to literally take any measures and use any means to find a culprit.

The grounds for an anti-terrorist campaign against Chechnya are not based on facts but on strong suspicions that the terrorists came indeed from Chechnya. But even if this suspicion turns out to be true, can an all-out war be justified?

Perhaps the answer to this question can be found in the historic relationship between Russia and Chechnya. Throughout centuries, Chechnya and Russia fought several wars. Their relationship was always one of struggle for autonomy on the one hand and a struggle to retain the rich natural reserves of Chechnya and political dominion on the other. Both share a mutual disrespect and distrust.

From the 8th century Chechnya was part of the multiethnic Alan State, which saw its destruction with the arrival of the Mongols in the 13th century. During the following three centuries, Chechens fought and traded with the Russians. At the beginning of the 16th century Chechnya and Caucasia became the focus of power struggles for dominion in the region by Persia, the Ottoman Empire and tsarist Russia. In the middle of the eighteenth century, Chechnya’s legendary hero, Sheik Mansur, lead a popular uprising against foreign invaders such as Russia. Sheik Mansur, a Chechen himself, was captured by the Russians in 1791 and died a few years later.

For several decades after Sheik Mansur’s death, Caucasians continued to oppose political domination by the Tsars. In the 1840’s another resistance movement formed in Chechnya and Dagestan under the leadership of Imam Shamil. Shamil’s rebellion successfully held off the Russians for more than a decade, but in 1859 it collapsed and the Russian Empire annexed Chechnya.

From 1917 till 1991 Chechnya fought fiercely for its independence and its traditional way of life. Chechens clashed with tsarist Russia, Cossacks, the White Army and Communists. In November 1920, together with other Caucasian people, Chechens formed the ’Republic of the Mountain People’, only to be abolished by the Soviet regime in 1924. During the following decades many Chechens were exiled to Central Asia and Siberia from where few returned.

In 1991 Chechen general Dzhokhar Dudayev expelled the Communist government in Grozny. Presidential elections were held in October, and Dudayev won a resounding victory. In November 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR), Chechnya declared itself an independent State. Russia refused to recognize Chechnya’s independence and in December 1994, President Boris Yeltsin launched a full-scale invasion to stop Chechnya’s move towards independence. During the two year conflict an estimated 40.000 people were killed and about 300.000 people fled the region.

As can be seen from this short historical review, Russia and Chechnya never enjoyed a cordial relation. This historical analysis is by no means exhaustive, but it gives an accurate picture of the kind of hostile relationship that Russia and Chechnya endure. Their mutual animosity is almost a tradition. For almost a thousand years Chechnya fought for independence with varying success. It appears that the present military campaign by Russia is more about completing unfinished business since the last military offensive in 1994-96 and about maintaining Russia’s political and economic authority in the region than it is about punishing terrorists. The conflict is the continuation of an unresolved relationship between Russia and Chechnya.

The following factors bear on the present crisis:

· A continuation of policies dating from the times of Imperial Russia and the USSR aimed at maintaining the political authority of Russia in Caucasia.
· Russia’s determination to safeguard and favor its strategic and economic interests in Chechnya, particularly over the significant mineral oil and gas reserves. Before the disintegration of the Soviet Union, Chechnya produced 20 million tons of oil per year. Due to the continued conflict however the production has gone down to about 4 million tons a year. A decrease of about 80%.
· Russian Generals who are more than eager to reverse the defeat they suffered in the last military campaign against Chechnya. The same Generals who lead the invasion three years ago are also in charge this time. It is not always that one gets the chance to revert a humiliating and embarrassing defeat (although a peace accord was signed in 1997, the invasion of 94 - 96 is widely accepted as a defeat for the Russian army).
· The long standing antipathy by Russians towards Chechen nationals which got further inflamed by terrorist attacks being blamed on Chechen rebels.
· A largely uninformed public, unable to make an informed decision about the policies of its government. Information in Russia is not a right but a privilege. Traditionally Russians do not enjoy any measure of public information. Reliable information is hard to come by and those who ask questions are sometimes putting themselves at risk from persecution by the authorities. This is one of the many legacies of communist Russia still burdening the people.
· One-sided presentation of the military campaign in the Russian news media. Thus leading to a climate of prejudice, overreactions and a wave of antipathy against Chechnya.
· Politicians eager to profit from the welcomed boost for a Russian nationalistic sentiment. Being proud to be Russian has been hard lately with mounting poverty, government inefficiency, corruption, cronyism, the Mafia and the collapse of the once mighty Soviet Union. The fall from world power to third world status has left many Russians searching for a national identity they can be proud of.
· The lack of enlightened leadership to resolve conflicts through diplomatic means. Having failed miserably on implementing long overdue internal reforms, Russian leaders are eager to show that they are still in charge. Demonstrating an iron hand in dealing with so-called bandits is perhaps the only way that the Russian government can convince its own people that it is still at the helm of affairs.
· A welcomed opportunity for leading politicians to divert public attention from pressing domestic issues such as unemployment, overdue paychecks, lingering reforms and diverting resentment against the government towards resentment against Chechnya. Thus capitalizing on popular support for military strikes against Chechnya and winning for themselves popularity shortly before presidential elections.
· Russian military leaders eager to prove to the world and its own people that the mighty Russian army is still a force not to be underestimated. Over the past years a growing wave of resentment against compulsory military service has lowered significantly the public image of the military. Desertions and deaths at boot camps are common. The low point was the defeat of the Russian army in Chechnya in 1996.
· A continued and unwavering determination by Chechnya to become an independent republic.
· A state of lawlessness, kidnappings, extortion, rising crime and corrupt government in Chechnya preventing the growth of a civil society.

All these factors bear to some extent on the present crisis in Chechnya. Historically, Chechnya hardly benefited from the political and economic domination by Russia. It is doubtful that even if the Russian military will score a victory this time, that the conflict with Chechnya is settled. What will be left behind is an uneasy calm under which simmers an age-old desire for independence. The conflict is sure to resurface at some point in the near future. It is furthermore doubtful if Russia has the political will and strength to keep Chechnya indefinitely under de facto military occupation. The Russian army may win this time, but will it also win over Chechens themselves?

Since the last military invasion by Russia in 1994, there has been no improvement in the daily lives of the people. On the contrary, buildings destroyed were left unrepaired, there were no economic reforms, no investments and no genuine effort was undertaken by the Russian government through cultural exchanges or other means to build subtle bounds between Russians and Chechens. Russian leaders had done better to convince Chechens about the supposed benefits for Chechnya if it stayed within the Russian Federation. However, looking at Russia’s economy and its prospects for the future does not inspire much confidence. Most foreign investors in Russia have either scaled down or auctioned off their enterprise due to rampant corruption amongst Russian officials, a hopeless tax system, a whimsical bureaucracy and an intimidating Mafia.

In such a situation, who can blame Chechens for wanting to secede from the Russian Federation. Most Chechens feel that Chechnya can not prosper while remaining under Russian authority. It may be true that Chechnya itself is suffering from similar social and economic ills, such as corruption and Mafia gangs, just like the rest of Russia. But that is no excuse for continuing to oppress Chechens and preventing Chechnya from solving its own problems. Rather, part of the problem is Russia’s drain of wealth from Chechnya to other regions of Russia. Due to its large oil and gas reserves, in case of becoming an independent country, Chechnya could rather quickly develop a thriving economy.

It may not be such a bad idea for Russia itself if Chechnya becomes independent. At the very least Russia would get rid of a cumbersome Republic that is draining their financial resources due to military campaigns, draining the political will of Russian leaders, causing continued embarrassment amongst diplomats and straining relations with foreign governments.
A humanitarian disaster

From a humanitarian perspective, the military campaign can not be supported. Even if it turns out to be true that Chechen nationals are behind the terrorist attacks in Moscow, how can a whole nation be punished by the acts of some misguided individuals? Vladimir Putin is quick to denounce almost every Chechen between the ages of 18 years to 55 years as a bandit and terrorist. Indiscriminate bombings by the Russian army in Chechnya, leveling whole villages, the loss of innocent lives, including those of many children, causing hundreds of thousands of people to flee the region without providing adequate basic care, and all this in the name of an anti-terrorist campaign, is of course unacceptable by any means. One may question who is actually terrorizing whom? The crisis in Chechnya is a humanitarian disaster.

Probing the reasons for the hard-line stand of Vladimir Putin reveals a well-known strategy.’ Do what is popular. Exploit the situation for your own gain and make sure that your political opponents do not get ahead of you’. It may be oversimplistic to say that the evil Russians attack the innocent Chechens. But it is equally naÔve of Vladimir Putin to say that Chechnya is a nation of bandits wanting to terrorize innocent Russia. Already representatives of the moderate Yablaka party in Russia have suggested the implementation of an immediate cease-fire in Chechnya.

But it seems to be more popular to bombard Chechnya. Whenever the popular demands are shifting, we can expect a shift in policy focus as well. At the moment however, comparing the unpopular military invasion of 1994 with the invasion of today, Russian leaders are eager to exploit the present unexpected support for military action. For many Chechens it is clear that suppression of Chechnya’s political self-determination is of course not in the interest of the Chechens themselves, but in the greater political, strategic and economic interests of Russia. To most Russians however, it is told that a nation of bandits and terrorists has to be punished and contained by any means.

According to the’ Institute for War and Peace’ (IWPR) the concentration of Russian troops and weapons in the Caucasus is a violation of the 1990 Conventional forces in Europe (CFE) treaty. Russia’s ambition to retain and gain political and strategic domination in Caucasia is well known.

Considering the socio-economic situation in Russia however, it is doubtful how Chechnya would benefit from continued affiliation with Russia. While other states in the region continue to mature, developing economic ties with one another and forming military alliances, due to its uncertain future within Russia, Chechnya is left out of this process. Could Chechnya be better off without Russia?

The founder of Prout, P. R. Sarkar, has suggested to form self-sufficient socio-economic zones considering factors such as the sentimental legacy of the people (language and script amongst others), common economic problems and potentials, geography and topography, culture, history and other factors. The idea of self-sufficient socio-economic zones is to develop regions that are economically self-sufficient, politically independent and socially united. To establish economic self-sufficiency one will have to allow for economic self-determination. This is achieved through economic democracy and economic decentralization. In other words, for Chechnya to prosper, a significant degree of self-determination has to be allowed. It is doubtful if this will ever be possible with Russia dictating and controlling the economics of the region.

Chechens, who call themselves Nokchii, have their own language belonging to the Nakh group of Caucasian languages. The Chechen language is closely related to the Ingush language. Ingushetians and Chechens enjoy close cultural and historic ties with one another.

Chechnya’s written language was based on Arabic. In 1920 however, the Latin alphabet replaced Arabic. In turn, the Latin alphabet was replaced by the Cyrillic alphabet in 1938. In the early 90’s, Chechens decided to use again the Latin alphabet.

Judging from the sentimental legacy of Chechnya, their history, language, culture and religion, one would have to admit that Chechens should be given a fair chance to decide for themselves if they would like to remain within the Russian Federation. Holding a public referendum however, is not in the interest of Russia because there is little doubt that Chechens would vote for their independence.

From a proutistic point of view, it is unacceptable that Moscow, being thousands of kilometers away, should dictate the socio-political and economic agenda of Chechnya. Some people however say, allowing Chechnya to secede from Russia will open up a Pandora’s box of ethnic uprising. It is doubtful if this is a realistic expectation. Since the defeat of the Russian army in Chechnya in 1996, no other ethnic group has asked for cessation from the Russian Federation.

Allowing Chechnya’s self-determination is the first step towards dissolving and resolving decades of ethnic suppression within Russia. Respect for one another will only develop amongst people who are free to decide their individual and collective destiny. A relation of subordination can not be a base for developing mutual trust and friendship amongst nations. The dissolution of the Soviet Empire is not a catastrophe, but a necessary pre-requisite to bring Russia closer to its neighbors and to allow common bonds amongst nations to grow. Holding on to a fallen Empire can not provide for peaceful solutions in the new millenium. A healthy downsizing of Russia may prove to be a boon to Russia itself. One immediate benefit would be the availability of billions of Rubel poring into the economy instead of the military. Some die-hard communists may bemoan the lost Empire. But Russia has to learn to build up its own economy without needing to bombard ethnic minorities.

Credit must go to Russia for having had the wisdom to abolish communism. Let us hope that the present Russian leaders will also have the wisdom to abolish military campaigns where dialogue is necessary.

From a proutistic perspective, the following steps may be taken to end the crisis:
· an immediate cease-fire
· safe return of all refugees
· a referendum in the near future, possibly but not necessarily under UN observation, about the political self-determination of Chechnya within or without Russia
· building an effective executive, judicature and legislative within
Chechnya
· allowing for greater economic exchange with neighboring countries such as Ingushetia and Georgia

It may be noted, like other nations that are today independent, Chechnya never asked to be part of the USSR. Chechnya was forcefully annexed by tsarist Russia and oppressed by Joseph Stalin. As one of 21 republics within the Russian Federation, Chechnya enjoyed a certain amount of freedom. However, it was clear that such freedom was granted on the basis that Chechnya would never go against the greater interests of Russia. In order to resolve this conflict, Russia itself has to redefine its relation with Chechnya perhaps perceiving the situation less from its own vantage point and more from the view of what is best for Chechens themselves. Such a re-evaluation of political and economic alliance on both sides, can only come about by listening to one another and most importantly, trying to actually understand one another. Russia may be worried about Western powers gaining a stronger foothold in Caucasia, right at the doorsteps to Russia, and it may also worry about loosing its grip on significant natural resources such as oil and gas to western countries. But it seems in all their worries, they never actually thought about the people who’s hopes and aspirations for a better standard of life get buried under the rubble of their own house.

16 OBr SpN

06-11-2004, 03:22 AM

Hate to break it to all of you guys, but it goes both ways....Russian troops have license to rape, murder, and rob any non Russian in Chechnya.

And you make your statement based on....?

Foir example, Pravda did a piece years ago on the number of Russian troops brought to trial for war crimes in Chechnya.....And the number was significant but almost ZERO actually face any punishments.... A big deal was made about the trials but then quitely the men were let free under "temporary insanity" and even some of the rapists and killers were let back into the armed forces!!!!!!

Budanov is still in jail. WTF are you talking about?

It happens daily....There are daily reports, daily pictures, daily video's......

Give me a link to those "daily pictures, daily videos".

The Chechen violence is merely a response to outright Russian brutality in Chechnya.......

This is just another example of that you don't know ****! Plain and simple. I'm not even going to waste my time commenting on the remaining bull**** you posted.

BTW, when you see videos of Chechens firing several self-made rockets towards our outposts and bases during night, you don't see us firing back with artillery and mortars. You know why? Because those terrorist scumbags position themselves near a village!
Here's some food for your thoughts.

You don't have to respond, because I'm done further talking to you.

WolverineBlue

06-11-2004, 03:34 AM

Very interesting read -- thx for the debate.

GazB

06-11-2004, 05:30 AM

Russians who have been waging war against the Chechens for the past 300-400 years and it was not the Chechens who deported the entire Russian population to forced labor camps in Siberia

So as your location is given as USA you must really be scared that the American Indians are going to start killing and executing innocent people...

(To get an understanding of what went on in those camps, read Fyodor Dostoyevsky's story regarding a convicted criminal who was sent there).

Well if we take the word of a convicted criminal I guess the Australian government will have a hard time attracting tourists if to understand what Australia is like we can only take the word of a convicted British national that was sent there as punnishment a few years back...

Remember this please, before calling the Chechens terrorists and savages and whatever else some people in this thread called them.

So anyone who has Jewish blood can kill or torture anyone with German blood and anyone with German blood can kill anyone with French blood... as can any Algerian, and any Brit can kill any Italian or Frenchman or German... etc etc etc.

Anything Stalin did to the chechens he did to the Russians as well... and Stalin was Georgian. The Chechen terrorists are being supported by Georgia rather than rising against them.

Valuk

06-11-2004, 08:32 AM

ariweiner

06-11-2004, 09:06 AM

you must really be scared that the American Indians are going to start killing and executing innocent people...
No, because the Native Americans gave up the struggle for their land a long time ago. The Chechens have not given up and are not very likely to give up. Regarding the "innocent" comment. We will first have to see whether the stories mentioned are those of innocents or those who were somehow helping to establish Russian domination over Chechnya.

Well if we take the word of a convicted criminal...
I should have been more specific. In Russia in the 1800's you could be sentenced to death for attending the wrong kind of meeting. Dostoevsky for instance, if I remember correctly, was sentenced to death for attending a socialist meeting. My point was that practically the entire Chechen population, men, women and children was sent to a place where hardened criminals were also sent.

UkrainianAmerican

06-11-2004, 09:22 AM

Mr Gently Benevolent

06-11-2004, 10:22 AM

As a matter of interest this filming of killings happened in Afghanistan with the relatives of Russians sometimes receiving videos or photos of their sons death, most of the packages and letter's carrying this material were intercepted by Russian authorities. What I found interesting was that the dissemination of this material was supposedly organised by Pakistani intelligence and with the help of at least two western intelligence agencies. Do any of the Russians on the forum know of these incidents.

Valuk

06-11-2004, 10:39 AM

Here lies the answer, the history of the former Soviet nations shows that authorities never worried much for lifes of the ordinary people. Mass murders, prizon camps, genocide are all a big part of history here. And now you wonder why they are killing Russians in such brutal ways. What can they learn from their past? They had to fight to survive all the time, no wonder they are fanatics! I've been to Pakistan and Iran, I know their love for guns, believe me! Constant wars with everybody around them caused that IMO!

Russia is huge, USA also, you don't know the perspectives of small nations that get hurt all the time when a big power decides something quite irrelevant for them! 10.000 sqkm means nothing to you, but for a 2-million nation that is half their state surface area!!!
:roll:
Yeah, well you dont see Israelis genociding Arabs. They too have been focvked (directly and indirectly) for the past 75 years. :roll:

Why different? The creation of Israel was a decision made or supported by great powers. that decision now influences the lifes of Palestinians and others in that teritory , doesn't it? Some would even say (Arabs) that the creation of Israel is a genocide. I know it isn't that simple. Arabs screwed themselves on numerous occasions, as in this situation.

It's like in Africa. Borders were drawn like straight lines. :bash: That causes huge problems even today.

RomanS

06-11-2004, 01:16 PM

Arieweiner, you hate to admit what Chechens did to the Russians living in Chechnya between 1991-1995. Before the war started.

I dont care what happened 300 years ago, or during Stalin. I wasnt born back than, and reading books that someone re-wrote multiple times, is not on my schedule.

In 1991 Russia was a new country, going for democratic political system. People were tired living in communism, so everybody started from scratch.

Now our neighboring republics like Ukraine, Belorus, Kazahstan, bla blab bla, all got their independence. Chechnya on the other hand could of had its, if they would approach things in more peacful way. But brutally murdering thousands of Russians living in Chechnya during that time, not only gonna get you in trouble, but there will be man in uniforms coming there to calm you the fuk down.

They asked for it.

And its not like our granfathers that went to Chechnya in 1995 (you know, the ones you accuse of killing millions of Chechens during Stalin's regime). 18 year old teenagers were sent there, some didnt even know where Chechnya or what Chechnya was. What do those teenagers have to do with Stalin, Dostoevski, Imam Shamil, Fedushkin, Aleksei Ermolov (if you even know the 1800's Kavkaz history)?

They were sent by new Russian government to calm down the brutal animals, and to preserve the constitution in Russian territory. Chechens were warned mutliple times to stop their illegal killings, robbing, and criminal organizations. But what happens to places when you constantly warn them to calm down, but they dont, and instead flip you off and continue on barbarizing the region.

You say that those witnesses are not real? Of course they not to someone who supports terrorists and thugs. I provided many links.
And why should I believe those hrw links you provide?

goes both ways dumbfuk.

Rebel 7

06-11-2004, 03:05 PM

Even supposing all of the given stories to be true(and they are to be condemned if in fact they happened exactly in the way described), it should be remembered that it is the Russians who have been waging war against the Chechens for the past 300-400 years and it was not the Chechens who deported the entire Russian population to forced labor camps in Siberia(To get an understanding of what went on in those camps, read Fyodor Dostoyevsky's story regarding a convicted criminal who was sent there). Remember this please, before calling the Chechens terrorists and savages and whatever else some people in this thread called them.

Those Chechens who kill Russian children and civilians with intent are savages! No ifs or buts about it! Yes, it is sad what happened to the Chechens and it should be condemned, but that isn't an excuse for the Chechens to terrorize Russian children, and innocent civilians. Afghan Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Hazara civilians were killed in great numbers by Pakistanis and Arabs, and Chechens who were in the Taliban ranks but yet I wouldn't see it fit or right for my Afghans to go and kill Pakistani, Arab, or Chechen children. In fact, trying to justify the killing of children and innocent civilians as "well we were brutalized by their forefathers hundreds of years ago and still are" is lame and makes the individual making such arguments no different than the criminals themselves. To kill children with intent is despicable and to justify it is even more despicable. The fact that you brought the issue of what happened to the Chechens hundreds of years ago to highlight that and take away from the relevance of the crimes they are committing today is like me saying that (suppose for instance) hundreds of Pakistani children being killed by Afghans should be condemned but lets not forget the plight the Afghans went through under the Pakistani funded, trained, and armed Taliban. The two issues are totally different in context and bringing up the latter in response to the former only shows intent on the author’s part of trying to cover up the crimes by coating it with another story of previous crimes. If an innocent prisoner escapes from prison and kills the family of the police chief, he is a criminal himself and saying that because he was tortured under the police chief, doesn’t justify him killing the police chief’s family. The fact that you brought this issue up only shows your intent to cover up criminal activities done by people whom you favor by covering it with stories that hold no relevance to the crime committed.

Valuk

06-11-2004, 04:00 PM

RomanS

06-11-2004, 04:15 PM

You're right, those acts have no excuse whatsoever! But, You forget that for most of us these are just theories we are arguing about. Only few or mostly none are directly involved into the situation so we are only speculating over the background of the subject. our knowledge of the situation is very limited, media reports from Chechenya are blocked or none existing etc... Only internet gives people outside some picture of the situation there. Nobody is defending criminals and terrorists, they (we) are just trying to get a broader perspective, if this is possible at all. I dare to think most of Russians don't know really what is going on in that place, then how can we know for sure?
Regards

huh, WTF ???

RavenW

06-11-2004, 04:22 PM

You forget that for most of us these are just theories we are arguing about. Only few or mostly none are directly involved into the situation so we are only speculating over the background of the subject.

oh, man... and that the people we are talking with, Permskii!...

"the speculators"!

Lets congratulate ourselves, all this time we spoke with "theorists"...

t-fu

Midtown

06-11-2004, 04:42 PM

if some guy tried to take my car, Id train a pony to bite off his wiener.

StukaJr

06-11-2004, 04:47 PM

Current conflict in Chechnya is provoked by those anti-Chechen and anti-Russian forces that are interested in permanent instability in the region - that's there is such fierce resistence to rebuilding of Chechnya and Chechen led Federal Government.

Valuk

06-11-2004, 05:00 PM

Ok, then do it your way, you nontheorists!!!

Kill all the chechens as soon as possible to make sure there are no terrorists left and to make sure nobody will try to consider them as a nation! that will certainly put a stop to our interests in these people!

Rebuild your great Soviet union, since this poor excuse for democracy (today's Russia) is run by mafia!

Buldoze Grozny to make it sure everybody forgets it's existed.

Giver yourself a f.. medall!

have it your way if you prefer, why not using VX or sth instead of con. weapons, it works fine, doesn't it? Oh, watch out, don't kill yourself in the process of making it and at the same time contaminating the whole continent (refering to Chernobyl)! :bash: As for me, I have nothing against Chechens, they havent done me nothing wrong. But, when speaking of you, Russians, I would prefer living under german ocupation than your KGB tirany!!

RavenW

06-11-2004, 05:05 PM

As for me, I have nothing against Chechens, they havent done me nothing wrong.

...yet.

Finally, the truth speaks up. And that's exactly what I don't like about Europe. It's okay to be neutral with evil that attacks only ___ (Jews, Russians, Americans - please, insert neccessary word)

But, when speaking of you, Russians, I would prefer living under german ocupation than your KGB tirany!!

Aaaah, how quickly we forgive and forget Waffen SS and Gestapo.

What I don't like about European mentality... Reason #2.

RomanS

06-11-2004, 05:13 PM

RomanS

06-11-2004, 05:35 PM

There are terrorists in Chechnya right? YES

There are innocent people in Chechnya right? YES

There are places beside Chechnya where the innocent can live right? YES

Not all Chechens are dumb to stay in the country while Russia hunts the terrorists right?

Do muslim terrorists in Chechnya use innocent people for cover? YES

Example: Budennovsk 1995, when Russians began their storm in the hospital, to free the pregnant women, Chechens put them all in the windows of the hospital.

While Chechen terrorists were palcing their guns between the legs of Russian women, the Russian ALFA and Vityaz had to cease fire, while they were taken fire from the windows where women were waving white sheets.

I have a 40 minute video, recorded by one of the operators, and an MVD officer standing near it. The video clearly shows around 60-100 females standing in the windows of the hospital, and between their legs man with ski masks, green bandanas with arabic writings all over them, and machine guns.

If this is the way the Chechens want to negotiate with Russians for what Stalin did to their granfathers (when they betrayed Soviet Union in WW2), than be it.

But again, 18 year old soldiers were sent to fight in 1995, not Stalin.

But back to the topic.

If I was a Chechen civilian, I would be getting my ass into Ingushetia way before 1994. The Chechen capital knew that by murdering and commiting crimes against Russians living in Chechnya, Russian soldiers would come in and calm everyone down.
So you can't tell me that you are that dumb, and can't see sand bags apear all over the town, armed Chechen groups riding everywhere, RPG and Machine gun nests are setting up on the roofs - FOR WEEKS AND WEEKS.

Why stay, if you know that the war is gonna happen here. The doors were open, Russians didnt shoot at the fleeding Chechen civilians, Russians didnt kidnap Chechen civilians trying to get out of Chechnya.

Dudaev forced many innocent Chechens to pick up arms, and fight for him. Those who didnt, were treated as enemies of Chechnya, and shot in the middle of Grozny. Plenty of videos to prove.

Raven is right, Europe sometimes makes me wonder...

I mean no wonder Zakaev, and Berezovski are hiding there now. And Zakaev is wanted for terrorism. We have all the prove, and evidence for this fuk, but Europeans won't give him out.
Just to piss us off

Midtown

06-11-2004, 05:46 PM

FIRE ZE MISSILES!

ariweiner

06-11-2004, 05:49 PM

Those Chechens who kill Russian children and civilians with intent are savages! No ifs or buts about it! Yes, it is sad what happened to the Chechens and it should be condemned, but that isn't an excuse for the Chechens to terrorize Russian children, and innocent civilians.
True. Lest we forget though, in an Islamic understanding, oppression is worse than slaughter. And what the Russians have been doing for the past few hundred years is oppression and more oppression.

In fact, trying to justify the killing of children and innocent civilians as "well we were brutalized by their forefathers hundreds of years ago and still are" is lame and makes the individual making such arguments no different than the criminals themselves.
I was not trying to justify what happened if indeed it did happen. I was mentioning that there is much more to the story and reports of a single atrocity must not be used to judge the overall situation.

To kill children with intent is despicable and to justify it is even more despicable.
Who killed children with intent?

The fact that you brought this issue up only shows your intent to cover up criminal activities done by people whom you favor by covering it with stories that hold no relevance to the crime committed.
I brought up one issue which is extremely relevant. You will note that many of the stories that PermskiiOMON translated related to direct and indirect involvement with the Russian invaders.

============

Arieweiner, you hate to admit what Chechens did to the Russians living in Chechnya between 1991-1995. Before the war started.
I do my best to admit everything that is truth. Right now I do not have a Chechen perspective to balance what your initial post claimed, so I will not judge the situation of the Russians in Chechnya in 1991-1995.

Now our neighboring republics like Ukraine, Belorus, Kazahstan, bla blab bla, all got their independence. Chechnya on the other hand could of had its, if they would approach things in more peacful way.
According to everything I have read, including articles from very pro-Russian sources, the intent was to prevent the independence of Chechnya and to impose Russian imperialism on their land and this had nothing to do with protecting Russia or Russians.

And its not like our granfathers that went to Chechnya in 1995 (you know, the ones you accuse of killing millions of Chechens during Stalin's regime). 18 year old teenagers were sent there, some didnt even know where Chechnya or what Chechnya was.
So why did they go to fight a war that they knew nothing about? Isn't there some form of conscientious objection in the Russian military?

What do those teenagers have to do with Stalin, Dostoevski, Imam Shamil, Fedushkin, Aleksei Ermolov (if you even know the 1800's Kavkaz history)?
These teenagers are enforcing the dictatorial policies of their government against a non-belligerent country. This has been going on for the past 300-400 years and therefore these teenagers should have known something about the general situation. If you are going to kill somebody, you had better know why.

They were sent by new Russian government to calm down the brutal animals, and to preserve the constitution in Russian territory. Chechens were warned mutliple times to stop their illegal killings, robbing, and criminal organizations. But what happens to places when you constantly warn them to calm down, but they dont, and instead flip you off and continue on barbarizing the region.
Brutal animals? Lol. As for the crime and banditry that was going on. This was merely a reflection of Russian rule with their Mafia crime gangs.

You say that those witnesses are not real?
I did not say so.

And why should I believe those hrw links you provide?
Because they are from an independent source. They are not Kavkazcenter nor are they some rightwing Russian outfit.

RomanS

06-11-2004, 06:00 PM

So why did they go to fight a war that they knew nothing about? Isn't there some form of conscientious objection in the Russian military?

Ummmm How much do you know about Russian draft, and laws in the army?

ariweiner

06-11-2004, 06:01 PM

There are terrorists in Chechnya right? YES
Note: all the "terrorists" are "Made in Russia."

Not all Chechens are dumb to stay in the country while Russia hunts the terrorists right?
So all the Chechens should flee their homelands while Russia stomps on their land?

Example: Budennovsk 1995, when Russians began their storm in the hospital, to free the pregnant women, Chechens put them all in the windows of the hospital.
To my mind, Basayev and his group were justified in everything that they did in Budennovsk. It was that one action that could be said to have led to Russia's defeat in the first war. Thereby preventing the deaths of tens of thousands more innocents.

I have a 40 minute video, recorded by one of the operators, and an MVD officer standing near it. The video clearly shows around 60-100 females standing in the windows of the hospital, and between their legs man with ski masks, green bandanas with arabic writings all over them, and machine guns.
Do you have permission to post this video on the internet? If so I would like to see it and I think that many on this forum would also like to see it.

If this is the way the Chechens want to negotiate with Russians for what Stalin did to their granfathers (when they betrayed Soviet Union in WW2), than be it.
They didn't betray anybody because they never were loyal to the Soviets in the first place.

So you can't tell me that you are that dumb, and can't see sand bags apear all over the town, armed Chechen groups riding everywhere, RPG and Machine gun nests are setting up on the roofs - FOR WEEKS AND WEEKS.
So, someone invades your home, you just flee? I would take whatever weapon I could find and stab the invaders one in the throat.

Why stay, if you know that the war is gonna happen here. The doors were open, Russians didnt shoot at the fleeding Chechen civilians, Russians didnt kidnap Chechen civilians trying to get out of Chechnya.
Lol do you really believe that they didn't shoot and bombard fleeing civilians? There are MANY MANY reports of Russian forces doing exactly this. Heres one (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/510193.stm)

Dudaev forced many innocent Chechens to pick up arms, and fight for him. Those who didnt, were treated as enemies of Chechnya, and shot in the middle of Grozny. Plenty of videos to prove.
Isn't it a crime during wartime to show cowardice?

I mean no wonder Zakaev, and Berezovski are hiding there now. And Zakaev is wanted for terrorism. We have all the prove, and evidence for this fuk, but Europeans won't give him out.
Just to piss us off
Or maybe because Russia has no substantiated evidence to prove that Zakaev is a criminal.

ariweiner

06-11-2004, 06:02 PM

Ummmm How much do you know about Russian draft, and laws in the army?
I know nothing. That's why I was asking.

RomanS

06-11-2004, 06:35 PM

Ariweiner

These teenagers are enforcing the dictatorial policies of their government against a non-belligerent country. This has been going on for the past 300-400 years and therefore these teenagers should have known something about the general situation. If you are going to kill somebody, you had better know why.

the war in Chechnya started in 1995, 400 years ago it was 1595.
DO YOU KNOW HISTORY, and what was happening during those years in Russia? US didnt even exist for another 200 years.

As for Russian army, during the first Chechen war Russian soldiers had no voice where they are going, and who do they have to shoot at. They were all put into trains and taken into Mozdok, where they tolled them they must take Grozny.

Russian soldiers telling their generals "NO, fuk you!" would be the end of their life, or a brutal torture. Some did it, and I hate to admit that some of our fukin generals disriminated our soldiers, or didnt give a **** what will happen to them.

Note: all the "terrorists" are "Made in Russia."

Explain this please
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/20/powell.chechenterrorist/

and this

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/18067.htm

Not only Russia, but USA declared those groups as terrorists.

So all the Chechens should flee their homelands while Russia stomps on their land?

What do you mean by stomping? The planes were droping bombs trying to protect pinned down Russian soldiers. While brave Chechen fighters shot and ran into the buildings knowing that Russians won't bomb them.
:roll:

Chechens lucky that we didnt use atom bombs to save thousands lives of our soldiers. We could of ended that conflict in a matter of minutes, but no 18 year old teenagers had to go on feet, and smoke those bandits.

To my mind, Basayev and his group were justified in everything that they did in Budennovsk. It was that one action that could be said to have led to Russia's defeat in the first war. Thereby preventing the deaths of tens of thousands more innocents.

So by taking thousand+ pregnant Russian females hostage, is justified in your mind? (i hope people read this, and this is fukin sad. If those hostages were Americans, this ariweiner would be banned right now. PRETTY SAD)

Kind of like Ben Laden organized 9-11 because US terrorized muslims through out the world. This is justified by you as well? Oh please don't tell me NO, because you live in USA you won't say YES. Otherwise you would be out of the country fast. But deep down inside you applaud on what happened on 9-11.

And by the way, war ended in August 1996. A year later, not right after Budennovsk. Don't forget the Kizlyar.

You know what Russians did to Basaev's father? They fukin destroyed his house after the Budennovsk tragedy.

Do you have permission to post this video on the internet? If so I would like to see it and I think that many on this forum would also like to see it.

I will do my best!

They didn't betray anybody because they never were loyal to the Soviets in the first place.

Than why didnt they start to opress Russians back then? They should of went against Soviet Union right when the WW2 started. You know why they didn't? Because Stalin would of wiped them all out. There wouldn't been Chechnya, there wouldnt been Chechen War of 94-95-96-99-00-01-02-03-04
Chechens would be in Smithsonian museum.

Thats why Chechens didnt attack Soviet Union, they were affraid of that. But today is different, Russians are not there to wipe them all out, and Chechens know it. thats why they got balls to blow up subways, trains, and concerts.

But look at what happened in WW2. Chechens let Germans in, and some even helped them to attack Soviet Union in the Caspian Black sea theaters.

I'm supriced Stalin with his temper didnt kill them all after the war. Instead he sent them to Siberia, while he murdered more Russians.

So, someone invades your home, you just flee? I would take whatever weapon I could find and stab the invaders one in the throat.

Should all Iraqies take weapons and fight against "invading" Americans?
As much as I know Russian might, and power, I'd be getting the FUK out of Chechnya. Russians not coming there with flowers and MREs.
Live ammunition will be used...

Lol do you really believe that they didn't shoot and bombard fleeing civilians? There are MANY MANY reports of Russian forces doing exactly this. Heres one

Back at ya
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3720375.stm

They don't care if their own people standing near are dead. They blow up anyone who's against jihad.

And this is what Russia does to the Chechen suicide bombers, if they catch them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3610327.stm

Note, she's been brought to Justice. No throats or heads been cut off.

And this is where my friend, going to work died. I lived 4 minutes from the blast

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3464545.stm

and a little list from BBC on recent bombings
Dec 2003 - female suicide bomber kills five near Red Square
July 2003 - aborted suicide attack kills bomb disposal expert
July 2003 - suicide bombers kill 14 at Moscow rock concert
Oct 2002 - suicide attackers seize Moscow theatre, 130 hostages die in rescue
Aug 2000 - bomb in underpass kills 11
Sept 1999 - two blasts in blocks of flats kill more than 200

tell me you justify them all.

Isn't it a crime during wartime to show cowardice?

YOU ARE FORCED TO FIGHT AGAINST THOSE WHO YOU DON'T WANT TO.
does muslim terrorist brain register this?

Or maybe because Russia has no substantiated evidence to prove that Zakaev is a criminal.

NO, its clearly to piss Russia off. We're not popular in Europe. Thank GOD.

I can only see USA to be Russia's only ALLY.

ariweiner

06-11-2004, 07:25 PM

the war in Chechnya started in 1995, 400 years ago it was 1595.
DO YOU KNOW HISTORY, and what was happening during those years in Russia? US didnt even exist for another 200 years.
The war has been going on since several hundred years ago. What I meant was that given the conflict has lasted this long, they should have known something about the situation.

Russian soldiers telling their generals "NO, fuk you!" would be the end of their life, or a brutal torture. Some did it, and I hate to admit that some of our fukin generals disriminated our soldiers, or didnt give a **** what will happen to them.
Perhaps they could have stated it in less outspoken terms? There are always courageous people in every situation though usually they are in the minority.

Quote:
Note: all the "terrorists" are "Made in Russia."

Explain this please
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/20/powell.chechenterrorist/

The organizations that Powell declared to be "terrorist" are led by Basayev. Riyadh-us-Saliheen and two others. Question: Who trained Shamil Basayev?

What do you mean by stomping? The planes were droping bombs trying to protect pinned down Russian soldiers.
The bombardment in both the first and current war was almost completely indiscriminate and has been reported as such by virtually every independent reporting organization, NGO etc that I have seen.

So by taking thousand+ pregnant Russian females hostage, is justified in your mind? (i hope people read this, and this is fukin sad. If those hostages were Americans, this ariweiner would be banned right now. PRETTY SAD)
If I remember correctly, Basayev let all of the women and children go.

But deep down inside you applaud on what happened on 9-11.
No I do not. :slap:

You know what Russians did to Basaev's father? They fukin destroyed his house after the Budennovsk tragedy.
What an appropriate response. Punish the innocent to punish the guilty. Russia's logic is screwed.

Quote:
Do you have permission to post this video on the internet? If so I would like to see it and I think that many on this forum would also like to see it.

I will do my best!
Thank you.

Than why didnt they start to opress Russians back then? They should of went against Soviet Union right when the WW2 started. You know why they didn't? Because Stalin would of wiped them all out. There wouldn't been Chechnya, there wouldnt been Chechen War of 94-95-96-99-00-01-02-03-04
Chechens would be in Smithsonian museum.
There's already been Chechen wars since the 17th century so. Secondly, the Chechens never were scared of Stalin and his thugs.

Thats why Chechens didnt attack Soviet Union, they were affraid of that. But today is different, Russians are not there to wipe them all out, and Chechens know it. thats why they got balls to blow up subways, trains, and concerts.
Not at all. Today the rhetoric has gone into extremism and therefore people commit attacks out of revenge. Which sounds perfectly reasonable once you hear them justify it. Go and read some of Basayev's communiques on Kavkazcenter. Now understand something: I do not personally support everything that Basayev does. I feel that he should somewhat moderate his stance and follow Maskhadov since A.M is the elected Chechen leader. Please let that be clear.

But look at what happened in WW2. Chechens let Germans in, and some even helped them to attack Soviet Union in the Caspian Black sea theaters.
What's new? Desperate people do desperate things. The Chechens were not "helping the enemy." They were seizing every opportunity to obtain their freedom and right to self-determination.

I'm suprised Stalin with his temper didnt kill them all after the war. Instead he sent them to Siberia, while he murdered more Russians.
True.

Should all Iraqies take weapons and fight against "invading" Americans?
Yes! By Islamic Sacred Law it is incumbent upon them to do so to defend their land and stop foreign occupiers from stealing their wealth and resources.

As much as I know Russian might, and power, I'd be getting the FUK out of Chechnya. Russians not coming there with flowers and MREs.
Live ammunition will be used...
Roger, but if the people fled and didn't fight back everytime someone invaded their homes, there would be no more "homelands."

Back at ya
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3720375.stm

They don't care if their own people standing near are dead. They blow up anyone who's against jihad.
Kadyrov was a damned KGB agent turncoat traitor. I fully supported his execution and I used to get depressed hearing about his repeated escapes from the hands of justice. Finally justice has caught up with him.

And this is what Russia does to the Chechen suicide bombers, if they catch them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3610327.stm
Perfectly understandable. Though Russia should perhaps be thinking of getting out of Chechnya to prevent a continual stream of Chechen female suicide bombers who were previously raped by Russian troops and whose sons, fathers and husbands have been murdered by Russians.

Note, she's been brought to Justice. No throats or heads been cut off.
Not like Elsa Kungayeva, no?

And this is where my friend, going to work died. I lived 4 minutes from the blast

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3464545.stm
I am sorry about your friend. I do not support attacks like this.

Quote:
Isn't it a crime during wartime to show cowardice?

YOU ARE FORCED TO FIGHT AGAINST THOSE WHO YOU DON'T WANT TO.
does muslim terrorist brain register this?
This is not about Dudaev's personal quarrel with another Teip. It is an army that is invading their homelands and bombing their cities. Those who are qualified but refuse to fight an army that is invading their homeland deserve death. During wartime, penalties are harsh.

NO, its clearly to piss Russia off. We're not popular in Europe. Thank GOD.
According to the reports of the request of extradition of Zakaev by Russia, the British and other European courts refused to extradite him on the basis that there was no evidence and the evidence that was presented was vague, inconsistent and suspicious.
Source 1 (http://www.chechentimes.org/en/news/?id=9447)
Source 2 (http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=13&issue_id=582&article_id=4263)

RavenW

06-11-2004, 07:43 PM

Permskii, waste of time...

remember? ;)

RomanS

06-11-2004, 07:46 PM

Raven W hold on bro,
There is still room left.

Here is what he thinks about Iraqi civilians fighting in Iraq.

Should all Iraqies take weapons and fight against "invading" Americans?

Yes! By Islamic Sacred Law it is incumbent upon them to do so to defend their land and stop foreign occupiers from stealing their wealth and resources.

RavenW

06-11-2004, 07:56 PM

RomanS

06-11-2004, 08:45 PM

The war has been going on since several hundred years ago. What I meant was that given the conflict has lasted this long, they should have known something about the situation.

Ariweiner 20 minutes ago you mentioned 300-400. Again, in 1595 Russians didnt even know what Chechnya was. Ivan Grozny had other things to worry about, than some crazy Kavkaz man.

Perhaps they could have stated it in less outspoken terms? There are always courageous people in every situation though usually they are in the minority.

Many did, many didnt because they knew what was happening in Chechnya with Russian civilians.

Internal Forces were constantly atacked on the border by Chechens before the war. Something had to be done. Chechens don't speak other languages, they only know violence. You have to live in Russia to know what I mean.

There are courages people. Their names Anna Politkovskaya and Andrei Babizkiy.

The organizations that Powell declared to be "terrorist" are led by Basayev. Riyadh-us-Saliheen and two others. Question: Who trained Shamil Basayev?

Basaev, Dudaev, Gelaev were in the Soviet Union's Army. (CA Sovetskaya Armiya). If you want to blame his marching, cleaning ak, pushups, operating PKM skills, blame Soviet Union (thats a lot of republics)

Dudaev flew a bomber in Afganistan during later 80s. He bombed his fellow muslims. He too could of been courages and said NO! to bombing innocent Afganies. Why didnt he? He had authority too. He wasnt a private in motorized infantry. He is credited to author Carpet Bombing there. Lots of dead innocent muslims ;) , hands are full of blood. And he started the whole mess in modern Chechnya.

The bombardment in both the first and current war was almost completely indiscriminate and has been reported as such by virtually every independent reporting organization, NGO etc that I have seen.

Agreed, we don't have bombs with specific names on them yet. I would love to have a bomb programed to kill Basaev or Khattab, and no other civilians around it. Unfortenately we don't have those yet.

But if I am a commander, and my guys from 131st Maikop Brigade are trapped by the train station, and they are surrounded by thousands of Chechens ready to cut heads off. I'll BOMB THE FUK OUT OF ANYONE WHO THREATENS MY SOLDIER'S LIFES.

If I remember correctly, Basayev let all of the women and children go. How many females and children were executed when the storm started? On the video tape there are several dozen of bodies Alfa inspects after the busses with Chechens left. Most of them hed head shots, execution style. Very hard to kill like that on accident.

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:25 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
the war in Chechnya started in 1995, 400 years ago it was 1595.
DO YOU KNOW HISTORY, and what was happening during those years in Russia? US didnt even exist for another 200 years.

The war has been going on since several hundred years ago. What I meant was that given the conflict has lasted this long, they should have known something about the situation.
Quote:
Russian soldiers telling their generals "NO, fuk you!" would be the end of their life, or a brutal torture. Some did it, and I hate to admit that some of our fukin generals disriminated our soldiers, or didnt give a **** what will happen to them.

Perhaps they could have stated it in less outspoken terms? There are always courageous people in every situation though usually they are in the minority.
Quote:

Quote:
Note: all the "terrorists" are "Made in Russia."

Explain this please
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/20/powell.chechenterrorist/

The organizations that Powell declared to be "terrorist" are led by Basayev. Riyadh-us-Saliheen and two others. Question: Who trained Shamil Basayev?
Quote:
What do you mean by stomping? The planes were droping bombs trying to protect pinned down Russian soldiers.

The bombardment in both the first and current war was almost completely indiscriminate and has been reported as such by virtually every independent reporting organization, NGO etc that I have seen.
Quote:
So by taking thousand+ pregnant Russian females hostage, is justified in your mind? (i hope people read this, and this is fukin sad. If those hostages were Americans, this ariweiner would be banned right now. PRETTY SAD)

If I remember correctly, Basayev let all of the women and children go.
Quote:
But deep down inside you applaud on what happened on 9-11.

No I do not.

But why do you think it was wrong for Ben Laden to attack on 9-11?

Do you think it was a good idea to atack "Cole" in Yemen?

What about atacking embassies in Africa?

What an appropriate response. Punish the innocent to punish the guilty. Russia's logic is screwed.

In Dodge Billingsley's documentary called "Immortal Fortress" he interviews Basaev's father Salman. Salman was very active in the first Chechen war. He lead a group of Chechens in the Grozny during the New Years eve fights, and was an exellent sniper. He harboured Basaev, and his brothers. He who harbours terrorists, will be dead. Plain and simple.

There's already been Chechen wars since the 17th century so. Secondly, the Chechens never were scared of Stalin and his thugs.

They should of went up against him. Why not? Dagestan was near. They could of started there. I mean Imam Shamil did it just fine around 1840's.

Chechens knew, that if they tried an open revolt, this would be it for them. They sat quiet, and **** in their pants. The best part was after the WW2. Time for back up. Notice, they were sent to prision while Russian citizens were killed by Stalin.

Stalin was Georgian, and he was in control of whole Soviet Union (lots of republics again), so Chechens should be pissed at Georgia.

Not at all. Today the rhetoric has gone into extremism and therefore people commit attacks out of revenge. Which sounds perfectly reasonable once you hear them justify it. Go and read some of Basayev's communiques on Kavkazcenter. Now understand something: I do not personally support everything that Basayev does. I feel that he should somewhat moderate his stance and follow Maskhadov since A.M is the elected Chechen leader. Please let that be clear.

Go to Kavkazcenter lol?

Here is what I found at Kavkazcenter

Americans Raping Iraqi children
http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/article.php?id=2793

You can now throw your propaganda site out of this conversation.

Nobody respects Aslan Mashadov in Chechnya. He actually owes a lot of money to some brutal Islamic sponsors.
And no mudjahed group in Chechnya is taking him seriously anymore. He also apeared on Chechen and Russian TV saying that Moscow Theater situation was great job for the mudjahadeens. Way to go Mashadov, he will get a bullet in his head soon or later. He than can tell Khattab that once he was right.

In order to stop the mess, we must sit down with the Russians. - Aslan Mashadov (before 2002)

Yes! By Islamic Sacred Law it is incumbent upon them to do so to defend their land and stop foreign occupiers from stealing their wealth and resources.

Are you gonna go fight for Iraqies against Americans? if no, than why?
Same situation in your eyes.

Roger, but if the people fled and didn't fight back everytime someone invaded their homes, there would be no more "homelands."
There still be homelands, but less murder and terror.

Tell me, why is it in Islam females have to have a head cover? In Taliban rule females are completely covered. In Chechnya Russians won't let them do the same, so to be some nice they only let them put something to cover their hair. As much as Russians hate that, your types of people still discriminate females in the world.

Kadyrov was a damned KGB agent turncoat traitor. I fully supported his execution and I used to get depressed hearing about his repeated escapes from the hands of justice. Finally justice has caught up with him.

Kadirov fought against Russians in the first war.

Gantamirov fought against Russians in the first war as well.

No KGB were involved

Also, Arbi Baraev was an MVD officer during Soviet days, up untill 1992 when he murdered a man who refused to pay him money. He later became a respected field commander, who killed more of his own Chechen civilians, not Russian soldiers.
(he also invented the "CHECHEN LOTTERY" execution method)

The point is, a 9 year old girl was injured by the blast while there. Along with other 2 older Chechen veterans who fought against Nazis in WW2. Basaev targeted one man, but at the end some of those who have nothing to do with Kadirov lost their lives.

Thank God the bomb wasnt as big as the one Chechen terrorists used to blow up WW2 veterans in Kaspyisk in 2902. Remember? Here let me remind you
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/05/09/chcehnya.blast/

Perfectly understandable. Though Russia should perhaps be thinking of getting out of Chechnya to prevent a continual stream of Chechen female suicide bombers who were previously raped by Russian troops and whose sons, fathers and husbands have been murdered by Russians.

Not going to happen. We are staying there untill the end.

Not like Elsa Kungayeva, no?

Budanov claimed Elza Kungaeva was a sniper. If she wasn't, he would be doing 20 years now. He was sentenced for un-lawful murder, but I think there was enough evidence to show that Kungaeva wasnt a saint.

I am sorry about your friend. I do not support attacks like this.

But you justified the Budennovsk

Do you justify an attack on Dagestan in 1999 by Basaev and Khattab?

RomanS

06-11-2004, 08:47 PM

Permskii, tell you honestly man, I'm just tired to explain basics to every damn moron on the internet who happens to bump into me.

I just returned from gym, gonna go to local bar with my friends...

Have a nice weekend! woot

Adios!

RavenW just left the building! :) p-)

Have a good one bro, thanks for support. It is greatly appreciated. Don't drink too much.

And again when you're in AZ, ammo, guns, and beer is on ME!

ariweiner

06-11-2004, 09:48 PM

Internal Forces were constantly atacked on the border by Chechens before the war. Something had to be done. Chechens don't speak other languages, they only know violence.
When you've been invaded and attacked for several hundred years, perhaps you too will know only the language of violence.

There are courages people. Their names Anna Politkovskaya and Andrei Babizkiy.
And probably hundreds more that we will never hear about.

Basaev, Dudaev, Gelaev were in the Soviet Union's Army. (CA Sovetskaya Armiya). If you want to blame his marching, cleaning ak, pushups, operating PKM skills, blame Soviet Union (thats a lot of republics)
According to an article on a US military site that I once read analysing Basayev, it stated that he led a specialized "Abkhaz" battalion that was trained by Russian special units. Do Russian special units teach "marching, cleaning ak, pushups, operating PKM skills"?

Dudaev flew a bomber in Afganistan during later 80s. He bombed his fellow muslims. He too could of been courages and said NO! to bombing innocent Afganies. Why didnt he?
I have no clue. I wouldn't assume the worst though...

Agreed, we don't have bombs with specific names on them yet. I would love to have a bomb programed to kill Basaev or Khattab, and no other civilians around it. Unfortenately we don't have those yet.
Rampant carelessness in protecting the civilian population=terrorism. There's a difference between attempted precision strikes and wholesale firebombing.

But if I am a commander, and my guys from 131st Maikop Brigade are trapped by the train station, and they are surrounded by thousands of Chechens ready to cut heads off. I'll BOMB THE FUK OUT OF ANYONE WHO THREATENS MY SOLDIER'S LIFES.
But the guys of 131st Maikop Brigade no doubt realized that it was THEY who were the invaders and their "defending themselves" is a murderer "defending himself" from the family of the murdered

How many females and children were executed when the storm started?
No clue. From what I know Basayev initially released about 200 women and children. Spetsnaz and Co. started their bungled assault, killed a whole bunch of hostages and withdrew in a hurry. Basayev demanded and got a convoy of buses, released the rest of the women and children and rode with the remaining hostages to freedom. All of the hostages were later released. This is what I can recall from the top of my head.

On the video tape there are several dozen of bodies Alfa inspects after the busses with Chechens left. Most of them hed head shots, execution style. Very hard to kill like that on accident.
Again I believe that they were killed due to the Spetsnaz assault. Though I do remember reading that some hostages were executed, I am unable to recall who the executioner was.

But why do you think it was wrong for Ben Laden to attack on 9-11?
Because
1) There was no State sanction
2) There was no specific goal for the attack
3) Indiscriminate attack of civilians
4) Attack was against a state(USA) that was not at war with Muslims.

Do you think it was a good idea to atack "Cole" in Yemen?
Not only was it not a good idea but it is against Islamic Sacred Law as well.
Because
1) Yemen had offered the US the use of their ports. According to Shariah law any Muslim who gives protection to a non-Muslim, this protection is binding on ALL Muslims to follow. Hence anyone who has received a visa or safe passage from any Muslim country, it is illegal for any Muslim to harm him. All vigilante attacks on non-Muslims in Muslim lands are illegal. So are attacks on non-Muslim countries that are not State sanctioned.

What about attacking embassies in Africa?
Illegal. Ambassadors cannot be attacked nor harmed.

All three above situations do not apply in Chechnya since the Chechen state is at war with Russia due to being directly attacked.

In Dodge Billingsley's documentary called "Immortal Fortress" he interviews Basaev's father Salman. Salman was very active in the first Chechen war. He lead a group of Chechens in the Grozny during the New Years eve fights, and was an exellent sniper. He harboured Basaev, and his brothers. He who harbours terrorists, will be dead. Plain and simple.
Hell, he is Basayevs father! This is extra judicial punishment pure and simple. In other words, the punishment of those who have not gone through the legal channels necessary to apply such a punishment.

Go to Kavkazcenter lol?

Here is what I found at Kavkazcenter

Americans Raping Iraqi children
http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/article.php?id=2793
What's wrong with that? Is it making any absurd claims? No! They are quoting American media reports to prove their point. Just because it goes against the mainstream US feelings doesn't make it any less true.

You can now throw your propaganda site out of this conversation.
I still think you should go read some of Basayev's communiques. They are very interesting. For instance:

"He has offered to end the activities of the “Riyadus Salakhin” if the Russians agree to conduct the Chechen/Russian conflict according to international law. Otherwise,

"If the Kafirs (infidels) want me to die so bad, I can make them an offer: let them give me some money, about 10-20 million (or) more, and I will give that money to Maskhadov to continue the Jihad, and I myself will buy me a good Kamaz truck and will drive right up to them!"" - Amir Basayev.

Nobody respects Aslan Mashadov in Chechnya. He actually owes a lot of money to some brutal Islamic sponsors.
Maskhadov has diplomatic representatives in New York, Washington, London and many other capitals. He is definitely well respected. As for owing money...where did that claim come from?

And no mudjahed group in Chechnya is taking him seriously anymore.
From what I understand, his forces are the MAIN force in Chechnya currently fighting against the Russian. Considering that he is the elected Chechen Commander in Chief, that is not surprising.

He also apeared on Chechen and Russian TV saying that Moscow Theater situation was great job for the mudjahadeens.
Nonsense. He definitely condemned the attack, I remember that very clearly.

Are you gonna go fight for Iraqies against Americans? if no, than why? Same situation in your eyes.
No. There is currently as far as I can see, no clear military or political leadership of the mujahideen in Iraq. That's probably the main reason why I wouldn't fight in Iraq.

Tell me, why is it in Islam females have to have a head cover?
To protect themselves and protect others. But you can find much more eloquent writings on the Hijab from Muslim women themselves here (http://www.jannah.org/sisters/hijab.html).

In Taliban rule females are completely covered. In Chechnya Russians won't let them do the same, so to be some nice they only let them put something to cover their hair. As much as Russians hate that, your types of people still discriminate females in the world.
France and Turkey can decide to have no hijab in State institutions. Why can't Muslim states enforce their own rules?

Kadirov fought against Russians in the first war.

Gantamirov fought against Russians in the first war as well.

No KGB were involved
I heard very specifically a few weeks ago that Kadyrov was a former KGB agent which, btw, is not at all far-fetched. Let me try to dig up the article.

The point is, a 9 year old girl was injured by the blast while there. Along with other 2 older Chechen veterans who fought against Nazis in WW2. Basaev targeted one man, but at the end some of those who have nothing to do with Kadirov lost their lives.
The Chechen Shariah court had already tried Kadyrov in absentia and sentenced his to death for treachery. This was a justified and targetted as possible operation. Secondly, Basayev has repeatedly warned all Chechens to stay away from Kadyrov.

Thank God the bomb wasnt as big as the one Chechen terrorists used to blow up WW2 veterans in Kaspyisk in 2902. Remember? Here let me remind you
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/05/09/chcehnya.blast/
Was there a claim of responsibility? Basayev always says when he is behind an attack.

Quote:
Perfectly understandable. Though Russia should perhaps be thinking of getting out of Chechnya to prevent a continual stream of Chechen female suicide bombers who were previously raped by Russian troops and whose sons, fathers and husbands have been murdered by Russians.

Not going to happen. We are staying there untill the end.
Which "end" is that? Till all the Chechens are exterminated?

Quote:
Not like Elsa Kungayeva, no?

Budanov claimed Elza Kungaeva was a sniper. If she wasn't, he would be doing 20 years now. He was sentenced for un-lawful murder, but I think there was enough evidence to show that Kungaeva wasnt a saint.
Yeah right. I am looking forward to some real justice being done to Budanov. Possibly Basayev is planning something...

Quote:
I am sorry about your friend. I do not support attacks like this.

But you justified the Budennovsk
That was different since it had very specific motives and it was not random killings. The Moscow bombings are just random and done out of revenge.

Do you justify an attack on Dagestan in 1999 by Basaev and Khattab?
I don't know what the exact situation is/was in Daghestan. I will give Basayev and Khattab the benefit of the doubt.

RomanS

06-11-2004, 10:23 PM

ariweiner,

sigh..

I'll get back to you here shortly. Got a lot of things to take care of.

Interesting debate we got though.

SeanAshi

06-11-2004, 10:27 PM

A Chechen woman accused of trying to set off a bomb in Moscow last July has been sentenced to 20 yearsShe got off lite, what are Russian prisons like?