To Improve the Economy: Infrastructure

[Ordie]

Infrastructure, the Economy: Hello! — They’re Linked!

For Release Sunday, October 5, 2008
Citiwire.net
[/URL]By Jonathan D. Miller
Lost in the election scramble, bank rescues and heated debate over government bailouts is the simple fact that American needs to rebuild its wealth — we’re busted.
The national debt grows to over $9.8 trillion and climbs rapidly while the current $407 billion federal deficit has nowhere to go but up as the federal government grapples with a teetering national economy. The next president will struggle to recapitalize the country while hundreds of billions of dollars go each year just to service our prodigious national debt. For all the belt-tightening talk, eliminating $16.5 billion in annual earmark expenditures would make only a minor dent in the huge federal deficit.
So what do we do — when our Treasury registers empty and we confront so many other challenges?
In the first presidential debate, both candidates conveniently sidestepped the hard choices they will face. John McCain suggested a possible spending freeze and Barack Obama admitted some of his big ticket plans may need to be shelved for at least a while. At least, Obama made passing reference to rebuilding the country’s increasingly dated and inadequate infrastructure as an important priority.
In fact, a retooled national infrastructure will be an essential part of the solution to maintaining our economic clout and future prosperity, while providing the needed stimulus of a near-term jobs engine.
The challenges are huge: Our once-vaunted interstate system is overwhelmed by traffic around major gateway cities and along truck corridors. Our metro regions lack public transit systems robust enough to tame oil consumption and sustain future growth. The nation has literally zero high-speed rail lines and may need four or more major new airports. Major East and West coastal ports have turned into huge bottlenecks and our national freight shipping network needs radical upgrading. Chronic traffic jams, lost time, higher driving and logistics costs can only get worse as the U.S. population expands by an expected 100 million people between now and 2040.
We’ve responded before. In the 19th Century, the federal government jump-started commercial growth with canals and then the transcontinental railway. Early in the 20th Century we underwrote development of an electric grid to trigger a new industrial era. Post-World War II interstate construction and airport building enabled explosive national and metropolitan development.
Now we need a new generation of infrastructure building, led by the new president and Congress. And our approach needs to be truly strategic. We need to link critical goals — on the one hand, enhanced mobility and efficiency that enable us to compete with more advanced European and Asian networks, and on the other, reduced oil dependency and a “green,” lighter environmental footprint that matches the carbon-reducing demands of the times.
What are the cornerstones that can form a successful, wealth-producing, energy-efficient strategy?
- Use federal funds to Integrate systems and modes. Set federal funding guidelines to force states and regions to integrate their highway, mass transit, rail and airport planning, combined with local initiatives to reduce car dependency. We need smart, multi-modal, inter-regional solutions — no more single-shot “Roads to Nowhere.” The huge government deficits we face make the case for strong federal incentives — perhaps a national infrastructure “czar” to insist on integrated, economical approaches — all the more compelling.
- Promote continental connections that keep people and goods flowing. For example, world-class connections of the nation’s coastal economic gateways must be tied efficiently to primary interior cities and transport hubs such as Atlanta, Dallas and Chicago.
- For our major metros to prosper, insist that rail, light rail and subway systems efficiently link suburban development hubs to center cities, intercity rail stations and airports. High-speed rail lines should link cities within major multi-state regions, offering alternatives to air and car travel. More vertical, high-rise residential developments should be encouraged around rail and transit stops.
– Make users pay. Interstates and highways must be tolled not only to pay for new infrastructure, but also to provide incentives for people to find more efficient means of travel and cost-effective places to live and work. Freeways have subsidized car travel and trucking as well as encouraged sprawl by not charging drivers and developers for the cost of building and maintaining these road systems. Fully loaded driving costs and transit alternatives would encourage people to drive less. “Drill, drill, drill” is no answer when vehicles clog expansive arterials into primary metro destinations.
This new infrastructure model won’t come cheap. But an Urban Land Institute report estimates that more than 5 million jobs would be created if the U.S. invested the full $1.6 trillion needed over the next five years just to meet current infrastructure needs. A government commission has asserted we need at least $100 billion in additional yearly outlays to bring our roads, rails and airports into the 21st century.
The principle’s simply: to pay our existing bills, we need a growing economy. Infrastructure’s a lead way to do that.

Source:[url]http://citiwire.net/post/262/ (http://citiwire.net/post/category/author/jonathan-d-miller/)

[BugHunt]

Haha about a year or so back this thread would be full of MP.net "intelligensia" - crowing about "its only paper money", "its like a student loan", it doesnt matter America am rich etcetc.

Along side "Iraq is good for the economy" and "its good the war is costing so much" they were assumptions which frankly crazily mirrored the attitudes of those in power.

[Yeti2424]

I dont thinkt that anyone could disagree with most of the article. However this jumped out at me:


– Make users pay. Interstates and highways must be tolled not only to pay for new infrastructure, but also to provide incentives for people to find more efficient means of travel and cost-effective places to live and work. Freeways have subsidized car travel and trucking as well as encouraged sprawl by not charging drivers and developers for the cost of building and maintaining these road systems. Fully loaded driving costs and transit alternatives would encourage people to drive less.

I know that here in CA we pay taxes specifically for road construction and maintenance. The only toll roads are those that were funded, built, and operated by private companies because the state could not afford to expand certain roadways. I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that the toll roads on the east coast are not taxed for but paid for by the tolls. Basically those that use it pay for it and those that don’t, don’t (someone from the east coast please correct me if I am wrong on this). Here in Orange County we grew tired of waiting for the state to pay for road maintenance, expansion and new construction so we enacted a half cent local sales tax (Measure M (http://www.octa.net/m2introduction.aspx)) that went specifically for transportation. Now if the government wanted to charge me tolls for the roads that taxpayers paid for, and in Orange County's case paid extra for, I would be quite upset.

[Winger]

Our infrastructure will go down the tubes even faster without proper control of immigration, legal or illegal.

[Flagg]

report estimates that more than 5 million jobs would be created if the U.S. invested the full $1.6 trillion needed over the next five years just to meet current infrastructure needs. A government commission has asserted we need at least $100 billion in additional yearly outlays to bring our roads, rails and airports into the 21st century.
The principle’s simply: to pay our existing bills, we need a growing economy. Infrastructure’s a lead way to do that.

Whether it's McCain or Obama, and irregardless of whether the US can actually afford it or not........MASSIVE infrastructure projects along the lines of the 30's WPA and the 50's federal interstate highway projects are guaranteed.

Upgrading telecommunications for massive bandwidth interweb

nuclear power infrastructure

alternative power infrastructre

highspeed rail infrastructure

lightrail infrastructure

bridging infrastructure

seaport infrastructure

Much of it we will not actually NEED immediately, but the government will be desperate to get people back to work, making money and spending it.

[Ordie]

Our infrastructure will go down the tubes even faster without proper control of immigration, legal or illegal.

You are forgetting your history.

If it wern't for the Chinese and Irish immigrants, the Transcontinental railway would not have been completed.

[Ordie]

Whether it's McCain or Obama, and irregardless of whether the US can actually afford it or not........MASSIVE infrastructure projects along the lines of the 30's WPA and the 50's federal interstate highway projects are guaranteed.

Upgrading telecommunications for massive bandwidth interweb

nuclear power infrastructure

alternative power infrastructre

highspeed rail infrastructure

lightrail infrastructure

bridging infrastructure

seaport infrastructure

Much of it we will not actually NEED immediately, but the government will be desperate to get people back to work, making money and spending it.

X2

People need to look at infrastructrure investment as an opportunity cost not a burden.

[Van Gogh]

Our infrastructure will go down the tubes even faster without proper control of immigration, legal or illegal.

I approve this message. They're coming over here just to get that American money and send it back to Mexico. It's a leak in the economy. I personally am unimployed, and the job that i do want is controlled by illegal immigrants. Its public service laborer for the city. The job that i do want is controlled by illegal immigrants. So they don't just work the jobs we don't want. They're working a job i do want.

[vryhpyammoadded]

Whether it's McCain or Obama, and irregardless of whether the US can actually afford it or not........MASSIVE infrastructure projects along the lines of the 30's WPA and the 50's federal interstate highway projects are guaranteed.

Upgrading telecommunications for massive bandwidth interweb

nuclear power infrastructure

alternative power infrastructre

highspeed rail infrastructure

lightrail infrastructure

bridging infrastructure

seaport infrastructure

Much of it we will not actually NEED immediately, but the government will be desperate to get people back to work, making money and spending it.
I’ve always been more than happy to pay my CURRENT level of taxation for infrastructure development if it actually happened. Instead I’m hearing calls for putting people to work AND increasing my tax burden to keep all the other useless government, from local to Federal, projects alive.

I say lets make a deal with the politicians. We’d rather have infrastructure development but only if they keep taxes the same or reduced somewhat and instead reapportion current revenue allocations away from other programs. Instead of throwing money away at some lazy ingrate on the Hill or on the dole, have builders put him to work! Oh, wait. Business would rather employ cheap illegals. Guess we’ll have to deal with that issue too while were at it.

Hell, if they can promise me a realistic national energy independence (this includes nuclear being free from gween BS litigation, more drilling anywhere and the actual production of a few withheld technologies), good bridges and highways and a return to an advancing standard of living with rigorously scheduled project goals met or the politicians involved commit seppuku and businesses fired over the next one or two decades, I’ll even let them take a slice of the DOD’s budget.

You know what, all this could be done by simply erasing the Federal government and rebuilding from the Constitution up. That'll free up some cash and obstructing regulations p-)

[shocker1]

The problem I have here with this is the tolls being collected on tax payer paid for roads. i pay a tax at the state and local level to maintain my roads free from tolling booths. Fact is in areas that embrace this idea, the companies leasing the management rights and toll rights are many times foreign owned. Increase those taxes if need be, keep the unelected away from our highways.

[Ordie]

The problem I have here with this is the tolls being collected on tax payer paid for roads. i pay a tax at the state and local level to maintain my roads free from tolling booths. Fact is in areas that embrace this idea, the companies leasing the management rights and toll rights are many times foreign owned. Increase those taxes if need be, keep the unelected away from our highways.

Increase the tolls = increasing the size of the delivery vehicles. Unless the trucking company would get into an economy of scale deal with the highways departmet.

Fedex and UPS already have accounts with parking enforcement. Its the cost of doing business that is usually passed down to the customer.

Buses and carpools are usually toll free.

[Ordie]

I approve this message. They're coming over here just to get that American money and send it back to Mexico. It's a leak in the economy. I personally am unimployed, and the job that i do want is controlled by illegal immigrants. Its public service laborer for the city. The job that i do want is controlled by illegal immigrants. So they don't just work the jobs we don't want. They're working a job i do want.

Public sector jobs are usually through the civil service examination and selection process. It usually requires a background check and drug testing. So I doubt undocumented immigrants would go through this process without being caught.

[Ordie]

The problem I have here with this is the tolls being collected on tax payer paid for roads. i pay a tax at the state and local level to maintain my roads free from tolling booths. Fact is in areas that embrace this idea, the companies leasing the management rights and toll rights are many times foreign owned. Increase those taxes if need be, keep the unelected away from our highways.

The taxes generated usually comes from gas taxes paid for by drivers. Unless there's a 1/2 cent sales taxes that supports transportation projects. To be equal, they usually include non highways projects such as public transit, bike trails and transit centers.

[socom6]

I think multiple US Bond drives should be in order to fund infrastructural development instead of depending solely on taxpayers or foreign lenders.

[Flagg]

The problem I have here with this is the tolls being collected on tax payer paid for roads. i pay a tax at the state and local level to maintain my roads free from tolling booths. Fact is in areas that embrace this idea, the companies leasing the management rights and toll rights are many times foreign owned. Increase those taxes if need be, keep the unelected away from our highways.

The problem is the states and municipalities that sold off assets to private outfits(not really sold, but leased for a LONG time) are desperate for revenue.

In effect, when state/local government do so they are raising taxes by stealth.....to a user pays model into private pockets.....

I think ONE possible model would be the other way round for NEW infrastructure.

Government pays/backs the construction completed by private companies in a competitive bidding structure(no sweetheart deals) and tolls/revenue collected by user pays until paid off, or paid down to where economic growth from the infrastructure has generated enough new tax to justify stopping or reducing user pays fees.

Unfortunately, once revenue streams are started by government they are incredibly reluctant to part with them........

I think of infrastructure as like business marketing and advertising costs...when well spent.....business comes your way to cover the costs...when poorly spent it's money down the gurgler.

[ZeroZen]

Invest on Gen. IV nuclear power reactors which lead to the massive production and commercialization of Hydrogen. Replacing gasoline for combustion engine or power station for modular(swappable) batteries for vehicles. Basically reduce United States expenditures on oil :7.3billion barrels annual/US$650 billion consumption a year. Thats equivalent on Bailout.

Just my wishful thinking...

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I think the article is a load of feel-good big government crap. Every dollar of each one of those multi-billion dollar programs must be borrowed via defect spending. I thought that was bad. Well, unless it's used for a pet project, right?

Next point - somebody show me where our infrastructure is outdated. Can we not get from point A to point B, carrying whatever we please, at any time we please? Of course we can. Maybe we can't do it as quickly as we'd like - maybe that's the problem. Ok, so which millions of people do we turn out of their homes via eminent domain in order to expand our highways? Anybody want to volunteer? Probably just be poor people anyway, so who cares?

Every year cities around the nation face referendum votes to build mass transit or highways - they always vote for more highways - and they're clogged as quickly as they're built.

There is one mass transit system that pays for itself - NYC. Every other one loses money because our existing infrastructure is a better deal than mass transit. Street-level trains cost about $50/million a mile to lay track. Elevated or tunneled systems are about $179/million a mile. So let's spend $3.5 billion (add to the deficit) on a 20 mile loop that will lose money every year (requiring more deficit spending to keep running) because our existing roads are a better deal?

Take a look at the big dig in Boston - bailed out with billions in federal money - and what did it accomplish? Well, that little section of Boston is a lot nicer- no more ugly elevated highway - for the elite who can afford to live in Boston - thank you taxpayers in Iowa. So we can all pay off that white elephant for the next 20 years while the guys and gals in Mercedes and hordes of regular people who service them can zip to their 6-figure jobs at investment banks and insurance companies downtown a little quicker.
This whole idea smacks of the WPA - needless projects funded on the backs of taxpayers just for the sake of doing something.

It would seem to me that maybe we could do things a little smarter - like aggressively incentivising business to move far away from city centers - into the vast undeveloped rural areas of the nation where infrastructure of all kinds can be built much more cheaply, and on a much smaller scale, to achieve far better results. IMO our biggest problem is not infrastructure, it's how our society itself is structured.

[INAT]

There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt-Goethe

Until the Federal Reserve is abolished this will go on. They create something from nothing and build interest that is due back for every dollar they put out.
The system is designed to have fore closer and bankruptcy built into it.

Until the root is addressed you can talk until you are blue in the face
and it will not fix it.

[Ordie]

This whole idea smacks of the WPA - needless projects funded on the backs of taxpayers just for the sake of doing something.

Without the WPA, I would not have a local library within walking distance from my home.

California Missions would have been dissolved into the earth of neglect.

I agree with you that much of the money has been spent on highways and golden shovel events. More needs to be spend on reducing our energy dependency.

South Korea and Singapore are good examples on how countries with limited natural resources are able to invest in infrastructure and foster civil societies.

[ren0312]

Without the WPA, I would not have a local library within walking distance from my home.

California Missions would have been dissolved into the earth of neglect.

I agree with you that much of the money has been spent on highways and golden shovel events. More needs to be spend on reducing our energy dependency.

South Korea and Singapore are good examples on how countries with limited natural resources are able to invest in infrastructure and foster civil societies.

Might be a good excuse to build a bridge connecting Long Island and Connecticut, plus a bridge and double track railway spanning the Bering Strait, and a HSR spanning the Eastern Seaboard and Western Seaboard, if that is not called a stimulus package then I do not know what is.

[Flagg]

I think the article is a load of feel-good big government crap. Every dollar of each one of those multi-billion dollar programs must be borrowed via defect spending. I thought that was bad. Well, unless it's used for a pet project, right?

Next point - somebody show me where our infrastructure is outdated. Can we not get from point A to point B, carrying whatever we please, at any time we please? Of course we can. Maybe we can't do it as quickly as we'd like - maybe that's the problem. Ok, so which millions of people do we turn out of their homes via eminent domain in order to expand our highways? Anybody want to volunteer? Probably just be poor people anyway, so who cares?

Every year cities around the nation face referendum votes to build mass transit or highways - they always vote for more highways - and they're clogged as quickly as they're built.

There is one mass transit system that pays for itself - NYC. Every other one loses money because our existing infrastructure is a better deal than mass transit. Street-level trains cost about $50/million a mile to lay track. Elevated or tunneled systems are about $179/million a mile. So let's spend $3.5 billion (add to the deficit) on a 20 mile loop that will lose money every year (requiring more deficit spending to keep running) because our existing roads are a better deal?

Take a look at the big dig in Boston - bailed out with billions in federal money - and what did it accomplish? Well, that little section of Boston is a lot nicer- no more ugly elevated highway - for the elite who can afford to live in Boston - thank you taxpayers in Iowa. So we can all pay off that white elephant for the next 20 years while the guys and gals in Mercedes and hordes of regular people who service them can zip to their 6-figure jobs at investment banks and insurance companies downtown a little quicker.
This whole idea smacks of the WPA - needless projects funded on the backs of taxpayers just for the sake of doing something.

It would seem to me that maybe we could do things a little smarter - like aggressively incentivising business to move far away from city centers - into the vast undeveloped rural areas of the nation where infrastructure of all kinds can be built much more cheaply, and on a much smaller scale, to achieve far better results. IMO our biggest problem is not infrastructure, it's how our society itself is structured.

I completely agree with your WPA comparison..........I'd also include TVA as well.

I completely agree that there's plenty of "good enough" infrastructure in the US.

But I think the reality is that if Obama is elected, I expect a fair bit of New Deal-esque projects.

The money spent, will be spent locally/nationally injecting a LOT of money/consumption into the economy via make work jobs.

I think of WPA/TVA projects like a shot of heroin, and private business incentive solutions as antibiotics.

Antibiotics take time to see positive results.......heroin takes away the pain instantly.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Where my cousin lives in the states. In Ohio. I looked at it. Ohio is similar to New South Wales quite a bit. Largish cities grouped together no more then 3 hours drive.

Yet there is no public transportation system similar to what New South Wales has with CityRail and CountyLink.

From Sydney I can travel to Wollongong, Newcastle, Maitland, Penrith/Blue Mountains, Canberra/Goulbourne and the upper reaches of the Hunter Valley all by train. These services generally run 30 minutes during the morning and afternoon peak and hourley every other time except for the network shutodwown for a hours in the middle of the night.

Then Countrylink has daily services to the Victorian border/Melbourne, Queensland border/brisbane, Dubbo, Armidale, Broken Hill.

Yeah sure it costs a lot of money, it's not really a money earner. But it needs to happen if the US wants to become energy independent.

[Calanen]

I approve this message. They're coming over here just to get that American money and send it back to Mexico. It's a leak in the economy. I personally am unimployed, and the job that i do want is controlled by illegal immigrants. Its public service laborer for the city. The job that i do want is controlled by illegal immigrants. So they don't just work the jobs we don't want. They're working a job i do want.

Can you hear yourself..'the job I want to do...' - you should do ANY job as long as you are working, and then when you are in a job, you change. This younger gen doesnt remember the 87 crash and the early 90s recession. It was easy to get a job for so long, but work shortages are coming back. Get in a job NOW - unemployment is coming back.

[Calanen]

Where my cousin lives in the states. In Ohio. I looked at it. Ohio is similar to New South Wales quite a bit. Largish cities grouped together no more then 3 hours drive.

You really shouldnt be boasting about our rail system. They are currently having a hearing into the endemic corruption in Railcorp. The Hong Kong Chinese did a report about the way in which the Sydney network was run - from their MTR experts - they were appalled by the laziness, inefficiency, and lack of work ethic. The report was so critical it got buried by parliament and never released.

Europe and Japanes transport is much better than ours. We dont need to connect regional areas, nearly as much as we need underground railways in Sydney and Melbourne. The other cities are not big enough, so there would be no point.

The US in a lot of places doesnt have public transport, because it doesnt need to. They have the massive highways, that were partially built as a defence measure by the Federal government. You can go anywhere quickly in most places, with huge highways. I found out what it was like to be able to really use a car when I lived in the states.

Yet there is no public transportation system similar to what New South Wales has with CityRail and CountyLink.

The US does have railways - AMTRAK to go between cities. Have a look at where it goes. And the NY subway leaves us for dead. The need for underground railways in OH, is marginal however.

Infrastructure can get a country back on track - FDRs new deal sure helped.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I'm not saying our system is perfect. But it enables me for example to go down and get on the piss in Sydney, travel to a job 150klm away and all the rest of it.

Being able to travel by car is great and all that but many people can't afford such trips anymore and or prefer to use public transport.

[daily666]

Whether it's McCain or Obama, and irregardless of whether the US can actually afford it or not........MASSIVE infrastructure projects along the lines of the 30's WPA and the 50's federal interstate highway projects are guaranteed.

Upgrading telecommunications for massive bandwidth interweb

nuclear power infrastructure

alternative power infrastructre

highspeed rail infrastructure

lightrail infrastructure

bridging infrastructure

seaport infrastructure

Much of it we will not actually NEED immediately, but the government will be desperate to get people back to work, making money and spending it.


New Deal mk II?

[Flagg]

New Deal mk II?

Yes....

For good......

Get people to work immediately

SOME eventual gain to GDP

For bad.......

See 2Sheds post

-----------------

Ultimately.....the new Prez will need to be seen as decisive

making big, bold decisions with immediate effect...even if the decisions don't have the most lasting value..........


-----------------

Think of it as trying to keep a room full of 3 year olds with particularly short attention spans happy

That and the first rule of management..........pee on everything to mark your territory, move the furniture around, and do something completely different from the last guy just because you can.

The LAST thing that will happen is doing things just like the last guy.

[ren0312]

Yes....

For good......

Get people to work immediately

SOME eventual gain to GDP

For bad.......

See 2Sheds post

-----------------

Ultimately.....the new Prez will need to be seen as decisive

making big, bold decisions with immediate effect...even if the decisions don't have the most lasting value..........


-----------------

Think of it as trying to keep a room full of 3 year olds with particularly short attention spans happy

That and the first rule of management..........pee on everything to mark your territory, move the furniture around, and do something completely different from the last guy just because you can.

The LAST thing that will happen is doing things just like the last guy.

A vocal minority of economists actually think that the New Deal prolonged the Great Depression instead of shortening it.

[Flagg]

A vocal minority of economists actually think that the New Deal prolonged the Great Depression instead of shortening it.

Personally, I don't like the idea of New Deal 2.0.

But I think it will have great populist appeal if the pain accelerates.

What I think would work best, and what I think will actually be implemented....are often completely different.

[daily666]

A vocal minority of economists actually think that the New Deal prolonged the Great Depression instead of shortening it.

It's a been going for decades. From Smith to Keynes, from Keynes to Friedman. The world changes and it seems we have to act accordingly. I agree with Flagg that this is propably the time we need a bit of intervention. The whole crisis is, again, because of deregulation, which in specific time and place could be a good thing.

[Noble713]

I think the article is a load of feel-good big government crap. Every dollar of each one of those multi-billion dollar programs must be borrowed via defect spending. I thought that was bad. Well, unless it's used for a pet project, right?

At this point virtually *everything* the government spends money on is debt funded. The important point is: is infrastructure a better investment for our tax dollars than the alternatives?



Next point - somebody show me where our infrastructure is outdated.


Minneapolis bridge disaster draws attention to neglect of U.S. infrastructure (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/08/07/america/bridge.php)

How to Fix America’s Crumbling Infrastructure (http://www.metropolismag.com/cda/story.php?artid=1528)

ASCE Report Card for America's Infrastructure (http://www.asce.org/reportcard/2005/states.cfm)

Here's some of the data for Florida:
-Driving on roads in need of repair costs Florida motorists $1.1 billion a year in extra vehicle repairs and operating costs --- $82 per motorist.

-Congestion in the Miami metropolitan area costs commuters $927 per person per year in excess fuel and lost time.

-18% of Florida's bridges are structurally deficient or functionally obsolete.

-Florida has 100 high hazard dams. A high hazard dam is defined as a dam whose failure would cause a loss of life and significant property damage.




Can we not get from point A to point B, carrying whatever we please, at any time we please? Of course we can. Maybe we can't do it as quickly as we'd like - maybe that's the problem.

Exactly. Not being able to move things about quickly is costing us in lost time. The system is becoming increasingly inefficient, even if it technically "works".



It would seem to me that maybe we could do things a little smarter - like aggressively incentivising business to move far away from city centers - into the vast undeveloped rural areas of the nation where infrastructure of all kinds can be built much more cheaply, and on a much smaller scale, to achieve far better results. IMO our biggest problem is not infrastructure, it's how our society itself is structured.

I'll agree that the structure of our society (i.e. zoning laws) is the fundamental problem. But we've already tried pushing business out of city centers: it lead to the creation of industrial parks, which are part of our suburban sprawl problem.