China makes Nobel prize warning

[LaoSexMachine]

China makes Nobel prize warning
China has said it hopes the Nobel Peace Prize will reward what it called "the right person", amid reports that jailed dissidents top the list of favourites.
The Prize is to be announced on Friday in the Norwegian capital, Oslo.
The Chinese foreign ministry said some past choices had gone against the prize's original purpose of promoting world peace and human progress:roll:.
The award went to the Dalai Lama 19 years ago, and dissidents Hu Jia and Gao Zhisheng are on this year's list.
This year marks the 60th anniversary of the signing of the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human rights.
Stein Toennesson, who leads the Peace Research Institute in Oslo, says a Chinese dissident is hotly tipped to win.
"The Olympic Games did not bring the improvement many had hoped for, but instead led to a number of strict security measures," Mr Toennesson told AP news agency.
Of the nearly 200 nominees for the Peace Prize, Hu Jia is seen as the most likely contender.
A democracy and Aids activist, Mr Hu is the best-known of China's imprisoned dissidents.
He is credited with chronicling instances of abuse and alerting both fellow Chinese human rights activists and foreign news organisations.
He was convicted last April of inciting subversion, and is now serving a three-and-a-half-year jail sentence.
His wife has been placed under house arrest.
Torture allegations
Gao Zhisheng, another strong candidate, is a writer and self-trained lawyer who defended Chinese citizens against the state, including members of the banned Falun Gong spiritual movement.


Mr Gao has been beaten, harassed and given a suspended jail sentence in the last few years. He was also reportedly targeted by an assassination attempt.
He has not been seen since he was taken from his home in September 2007 - although it has been alleged that he was tortured and has attempted suicide.
Today's remarks by the foreign ministry in Beijing are being read as a warning that a Nobel win for either Hu Jia or Gao Zhisheng would severely strain relations between China and the West.
But in opting for tough language, the Chinese government may be doing itself a disservice, according to a BBC Asia analyst, Andre Vornic.
The Nobel committee is unlikely to be swayed by crude pressure, he says. If anything, a perception of bullying could further stack the odds in favour of China's jailed dissidents.
However, with or without China's interference, their win is far from certain.
Other candidates on the short list include Zimbabwean opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai and the Cluster Munitions Coalition.








Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/asia-pacific/7657299.stm

[INAT]

So what does this warning mean? Do not give it to a prisoner
of the Chinese Communist government?

What are they going to become much more hostile to domestic
dissidents?


I saw what these guys did to Jack Bauer.Animals!

[Henry's Fork]

I saw what these guys did to Jack Bauer.Animals!

It was nothing compared to what they do to their own and other people.

[Calanen]

You always have to stand up to China, never be bullied by them.

[VAMAN]

China's communist party is so much afraid of criticisms, they should learn to take criticisms only then world will think of China as not oppressive.

[jokuvaan]

China can relax, for a moment:

Ahtisaari wins the Nobel
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7662922.stm

[PeterG]

China can relax, for a moment:

Ahtisaari wins the Nobel
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7662922.stm

A boring and completely non-controversial choice as usual. The old bureaucrats and politicians that decide who gets it, are of course more concerned with not 'offending' the chinese, russians and muslims, than anything else. Who cares about this old finnish dude? Let's give it to him! The Nobel price should be an instrument of change, but it isn't.

[plato]

as always, CCP didn't even let Chinese know this warning. Most Chinese don't even know this dissident was considered for Nobel

[jokuvaan]

But what have these Chinese guys actually achieved? Ahtisaari has a working record of 30 years. Ireland, Aceh, Kosovo and especially Africa.

[plato]

But what have these Chinese guys actually achieved? Ahtisaari has a working record of 30 years. Ireland, Aceh, Kosovo and especially Africa.
Nothing! That's why they didn't win. The CCP warned, but her people don't even know about this warning. I just read the Chinese news report on this, NOT a word about these Chinese guys. They reported on all the others candidates. Why? Because these Chinese dissidents have failed!

[Karry]

Who cares about this old finnish dude?
You mean, who cares about him apart from Europe that is still divided on Kosovo issue, apart from USA whose will he made true, apart from Albania who paid him millions already, to cut up Serbia, apart from Russia that rejected his plans time and again ?

Maybe i'm getting old, but if there was sarcasm in you post i missed it somehow.

[ting]

A boring and completely non-controversial choice as usual. The old bureaucrats and politicians that decide who gets it, are of course more concerned with not 'offending' the chinese, russians and muslims, than anything else. Who cares about this old finnish dude? Let's give it to him! The Nobel price should be an instrument of change, but it isn't.

Actually I think it was a good choise. As for fear of the Chinese, I think the committe would love to get an angry response from the Chinese. I kinda think it`s more fun with these yearly warnings though. Anyway SVs Ågot Valle nominated one of these dissidents.

Anyway this years warning was too muted. I hope the Chinese think of some new threats next yearrofl

[Wrangel]

Some Nobel peace prize winners were indeed problematic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize

For example Teddy Roosevelt and Yaser Arafat...when I think about them,peace does not come in mind.

Funny enough,Hitler was once nominated for Nobel peace prize:

http://nobelprize.org/nomination/peace/nomination.php?action=show&showid=2609

Interesting curiosity...:)

[domokun]

A boring and completely non-controversial choice as usual. The old bureaucrats and politicians that decide who gets it, are of course more concerned with not 'offending' the chinese, russians and muslims, than anything else. Who cares about this old finnish dude? Let's give it to him! The Nobel price should be an instrument of change, but it isn't.

Isn't exactly first time he was proposed for award. He is still a major diplomatic player in lot of peace negotiations and very successiful UN bureaucrat. Personally I feel that he is good choise for recipient, lot better than certain past recipients. That is not affected by his nationality.

[Thor]

I disagree with PeterG. Most recent winners have been decided more on political change instead of merit and achievements in working for actual peace. In this sense Ahtisaari is a good choice.

[TheMiddlePath]

You always have to stand up to China, never be bullied by them.


And China should also stand up against the West and never be allowed to be bullied by them.

[plato]

And China should also stand up against the West and never be allowed to be bullied by them.Hahaha! lol! who bullied the Chinese the most? The CCP or the West? Maybe Chinese should stand up against both.

[PeterG]

The US should have nuked China back in the 40s, while they had the chance.

[TheMiddlePath]

So what does this warning mean? Do not give it to a prisoner
of the Chinese Communist government?

What are they going to become much more hostile to domestic
dissidents?


I saw what these guys did to Jack Bauer.Animals!


All China wants is that the prize be given to the right person.

According to Nobel's will (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_(law)), the Peace Prize should be awarded "to the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fraternity) between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses."[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize#cite_note-0)

How is that turned into a "Warning" as stated in the title.

[BugHunt]

China isnt repressive or threatening and they will put and bullet into the back of your head or electrocute your ********s for 9 months in a work camp to prove it.

Peace communist style.



Sort the prizes out or the bookworms get it!

[plato]

All China wants is that the prize be given to the right person.

According to Nobel's will (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_(law)), the Peace Prize should be awarded "to the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fraternity) between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses."[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize#cite_note-0)

How is that turned into a "Warning" as stated in the title.You don't know what China wants! CCP gave the warning, NOT the Chinese people! Chinese don't even know these Chinese were even considered for the prize! I challenge you to find ONE Chinese media reporting on this. (I can read Chinese)

[TheMiddlePath]

You don't know what China wants! CCP gave the warning, NOT the Chinese people! Chinese don't even know these Chinese were even considered for the prize! I challenge you to find ONE Chinese media reporting on this. (I can read Chinese)


Western media are not much different. Thanks to their excellant report on the Tibet protest.

[TheMiddlePath]

Hahaha! lol! who bullied the Chinese the most? The CCP or the West? Maybe Chinese should stand up against both.


A picture is worth a thousand words.

[plato]

Western media are not much different. Thanks to their excellant report on the Tibet protest.
Western media's report on the Tibet protests and riots were indeed very excellant compare to the Chinese media. So, in that case the Western media is VERY different from the Chinese media or the CCP media.

[TheMiddlePath]

PeterG posted :
"The US should have nuked China back in the 40s, while they had the chance."

Nuking your own Allies ? Yep speaking like a barbarian.

[plato]

A picture is worth a thousand words.
Ok, i will stop here. I can see where this is going. Good luck! A picture indeed is worth a thousand words, but that still doesn't mean Chinese people have not been bullied by CCP, or the fact that Chinese killed more of their own people than the Japanese or any othere NON-Chinese

[Chulo]

A boring and completely non-controversial choice as usual. The old bureaucrats and politicians that decide who gets it, are of course more concerned with not 'offending' the chinese, russians and muslims, than anything else. Who cares about this old finnish dude? Let's give it to him! The Nobel price should be an instrument of change, but it isn't.
well after they gave Al Gore a Nobel prize i have no interest or respect for it

[TheMiddlePath]

Yes they are different. Western media fanned ethnic hatred. Cheered the violent attacks on Han and Hui Chinese. AND united all Chinese behind the CCP.

[plato]

well after they gave Al Gore a Nobel prize i have no interest or respect for it
I have to thank Al Gore, because I didn't know the prize was an annual thing until he won. hahaha

[plato]

Yes they are different. Western media fanned ethnic hatred. Cheered the violent attacks on Han and Hui Chinese. AND united all Chinese behind the CCP.
Is that a good thing? Last time that happened, millions of Chinese died, and the country went into chao for 10 years. Also, Chinese youth doesn't equal to "all Chinese".

[TheMiddlePath]

Is that a good thing? Last time that happened, millions of Chinese died, and the country went into chao for 10 years. Also, Chinese youth doesn't equal to "all Chinese".


And the lastPewter survey showed 87& are happy with the governemnt. Yes that is a good thing.
What happened in the past is tragic and has to be said under the context of the revolution. Whats is important is to learn from history and moved forward. And you ignored the fact that China today is now engaged with every country in the world and at all levels and certainly has come a long way.

[TheMiddlePath]

I have to thank Al Gore, because I didn't know the prize was an annual thing until he won. hahaha


Noble Peace Price winner.

[plato]

And the lastPewter survey showed 87& are happy with the governemnt. Yes that is a good thing.
What happened in the past is tragic and has to be said under the context of the revolution. Whats is important is to learn from history and moved forward. And you ignored the fact that China today is now engaged with every country in the world and at all levels and certainly has come a long way.
A fact I didn't talk about is the fact that I ignored? There are millions of facts in this world. Did I say China is NOT engaged with other countries? China sure came a long way, and that doesn't mean Chinese media reported about the Chinese Nobel prize candidates and the "warning". What are you trying to say? China came a long way, therefore Chinese media reported about this? What is your point?

[plato]

Dalai Lama is the devil, and that still doesn't mean Chinese media reported about the Chinese candidates and the "Warning". But, they did report who won the prize. Nobel prize is a joke, and that still doesn't mean .......

CCP even warned against a joke


Get it?

[PeterG]

PeterG posted :
"The US should have nuked China back in the 40s, while they had the chance."

Nuking your own Allies ? Yep speaking like a barbarian.

Those dirty commies can't be trusted! But, it's too late to do anything about them now of course.

[Eventine]

The US should have nuked China back in the 40s, while they had the chance.

Would've accomplished nothing. The PLA in the 40s was a grassroots, low-tech army with its strongholds in rural areas. It fought using guerilla tactics and could've easily retreated into the mountains. All nuking China would've done in the 40s is kill millions of innocent people for no reason and ensure permanent war between East and West.

[TheMiddlePath]

A fact I didn't talk about is the fact that I ignored? There are millions of facts in this world. Did I say China is NOT engaged with other countries? China sure came a long way, and that doesn't mean Chinese media reported about the Chinese Nobel prize candidates and the "warning". What are you trying to say? China came a long way, therefore Chinese media reported about this? What is your point?


My apologies. My point is this. Western Press, when it comes to reporting on China is not much better.

[plato]

My apologies. My point is this. Western Press, when it comes to reporting on China is not much better.
So, the Western Press is supposed to do a better job reporting China than China herself? Make no mistake about it, I see a lot of problems with Western Press everyday. But, the main difference is that China has a systematic way of totally blocking out news. This year's Nobel Peace Prize is one such example. While they(CCP) gave out warnings, but 99% of Chinese don't even know that Chinese were even considered for the Prize this year. One of the Chinese report I read was like this :"This year's candidates are XXX, XXX, XXX, and others...". That "others" were in fact the Chinese ones. I have had at least 5 years of experiences with Chinese media. So, you don't want to get me started.

Here is one such example if you can read Chinese: http://news.sina.com.cn/w/2008-10-10/084216429811.shtml

[TheMiddlePath]

So, the Western Press is supposed to do a better job reporting China than China herself? Make no mistake about it, I see a lot of problems with Western Press everyday. But, the main difference is that China has a systematic way of totally blocking out news. This year's Nobel Peace Prize is one such example. While they(CCP) gave out warnings, but 99% of Chinese don't even know that Chinese were even considered for the Prize this year. One of the Chinese report I read was like this :"This year's candidates are XXX, XXX, XXX, and others...". That "others" were in fact the Chinese ones. I have had at least 5 years of experiences with Chinese media. So, you don't want to get me started.

Here is one such example if you can read Chinese: http://news.sina.com.cn/w/2008-10-10/084216429811.shtml


And US media does not do the same ?

[plato]

And US media does not do the same ?
US media as a whole will never have one voice like the Chinese media. Totally blocking out one piece of information in a news. In that way, US media is NOT the same as Chinese media.

[Eventine]

US media as a whole will never have one voice like the Chinese media. Totally blocking out one piece of information in a news. In that way, US media is NOT the same as Chinese media.

As much as I hate to admit it, mainstream US media is lacking in many respects. This is especially true if you look strictly at TV/radio broadcasts, which often place too much emphasis on sensationalism. They also do appear to have some sort of agenda and, at times, twist the truth. You recognize this when you read something like http://exiledonline.com/is-cnn-getting-kicked-out-of-russia/#more-781:

"Not only did CNN delete Putin’s historical roundup of relations between Russia, Georgia and South Ossetia going back to the 18th century that followed, the network cut out almost everything else as well. Despite the “unprecedented access” hook, for its U.S. feed, CNN reduced the 30-minute interview into a series of sound bites that seized and ridiculed Putin’s crackpot theory that the Republican party started the war to boost McCain’s ratings."

So the US media isn't free from censorship-by-omission, particularly when you consider the fact that what the media reports on in the first place is, itself, a potentially very political choice. In this respect, I'd argue that a certain degree of "political correctness" does exist in the US media and constitutes a form of self-censorship.

However, I do agree that the plurality of news sources in the US, in addition to the private ownership, make it less conducive to government propaganda. But privatizing mass media isn't necessarily the way to achieve media freedom. Corporations, like governments, are themselves capable of propaganda and are naturally biased; in places where money rules, this is particularly problematic.

All this talk of mass media censorship would be depressing if not for the fact that an alternative does exist - the web, and the plethora of independent news sources it contains. There, Western societies compare much more favorably to Chinese because there aren't hundreds of thousands of censors running around trying to block the flow of information.

TheMiddlePath: If this generation of Chinese no longer trust Western mass media sources, all power to them - there is much to criticize. But I hope this doesn't lead them into blindly trusting their own media, which is almost certainly a government mouthpiece. Instead, I hope more Chinese turn to independent news sources and become active in combating the CCP's attempts to censor the web. The internet, as it stands today, is one of the greatest bastions of free expression. Don't let it become another tool for thought control. The battle for an independent web is one of the most important battles in our time, and it is - unlike many other battles in the world - truly universal in scope and implication.

[TheMiddlePath]

US media as a whole will never have one voice like the Chinese media. Totally blocking out one piece of information in a news. In that way, US media is NOT the same as Chinese media.

I do not disagree. That does not make Western press reporting on China much better.
Bad reporting, poor investigative reporting, lazy reporting, Biased one sided reporting all started with the Darfur crisis. Then the bad toys, the Tibet riots, the torch run and just plain lying. It may not be 100% but is close enough. Enough that even overseas Chinese were disgusted. Not to mention the racist remarks by Cafferty and you do get a feeling that it is systematic. Rightly or wrongly.

[plato]

I do not disagree. That does not make Western press reporting on China much better.
Bad reporting, poor investigative reporting, lazy reporting, Biased one sided reporting all started with the Darfur crisis. Then the bad toys, the Tibet riots, the torch run and just plain lying. It may not be 100% but is close enough. Enough that even overseas Chinese were disgusted. Not to mention the racist remarks by Cafferty and you do get a feeling that it is systematic. Rightly or wrongly.

How does Cafferty's comments, if racist, make you get a feeling that it is systematic? Why should US or Western press do a better reporting on China? This is NOT about bad reporting or better reporting. There are many lazy, plain lying reporters. But, the US government cannot control these media, while Chinese government can. That is the fundmental difference. There are examples of bad American reportings on youtube everyday. The US media has done nothing wrong in all of those events you have mentioned, Darfur crisis, bad toys, Tibet riots, etc.... You don't need to waste time to tell us those stories, anymore. They were told at MP.net hundreds of times already by other Chinese members. We all know your stories.

[plato]

As much as I hate to admit it, mainstream US media is lacking in many respects. This is especially true if you look strictly at TV/radio broadcasts, which often place too much emphasis on sensationalism. They also do appear to have some sort of agenda and, at times, twist the truth. You recognize this when you read something like http://exiledonline.com/is-cnn-getting-kicked-out-of-russia/#more-781:

"Not only did CNN delete Putin’s historical roundup of relations between Russia, Georgia and South Ossetia going back to the 18th century that followed, the network cut out almost everything else as well. Despite the “unprecedented access” hook, for its U.S. feed, CNN reduced the 30-minute interview into a series of sound bites that seized and ridiculed Putin’s crackpot theory that the Republican party started the war to boost McCain’s ratings."

So the US media isn't free from censorship-by-omission, particularly when you consider the fact that what the media reports on in the first place is, itself, a potentially very political choice. In this respect, I'd argue that a certain degree of "political correctness" does exist in the US media and constitutes a form of self-censorship.

However, I do agree that the plurality of news sources in the US, in addition to the private ownership, make it less conducive to government propaganda. But privatizing mass media isn't necessarily the way to achieve media freedom. Corporations, like governments, are themselves capable of propaganda and are naturally biased; in places where money rules, this is particularly problematic.

All this talk of mass media censorship would be depressing if not for the fact that an alternative does exist - the web, and the plethora of independent news sources it contains. There, Western societies compare much more favorably to Chinese because there aren't hundreds of thousands of censors running around trying to block the flow of information.

TheMiddlePath: If this generation of Chinese no longer trust Western mass media sources, all power to them - there is much to criticize. But I hope this doesn't lead them into blindly trusting their own media, which is almost certainly a government mouthpiece. Instead, I hope more Chinese turn to independent news sources and become active in combating the CCP's attempts to censor the web. The internet, as it stands today, is one of the greatest bastions of free expression. Don't let it become another tool for thought control. The battle for an independent web is one of the most important battles in our time, and it is - unlike many other battles in the world - truly universal in scope and implication.
Like I said US media like all medias have the same problems and issues. But, the Chinese media is totally different.

[Eventine]

How does Cafferty's comments, if racist, make you get a feeling that it is systematic? Why should US or Western press do a better reporting on China? This is NOT about bad reporting or better reporting. There are many lazy, plain lying reporters. But, the US government cannot control these media, while Chinese government can. That is the fundmental difference. There are examples of bad American reportings on youtube everyday. The US media has done nothing wrong in all of those events you have mentioned, Darfur crisis, bad toys, Tibet riots, etc.... You don't need to waste time to tell us those stories, anymore. They were told at MP.net hundreds of times already by other Chinese members. We all know your stories.

Plato, the problem with US mass media vis-a-vis China is that it has a tendency to focus on the negative. Just as Xinhua's portrayal of China is overly positive (and pro-government), America's portrayal of China is overly negative (and anti-government). Both of these distort the truth.

You're right, there's nothing wrong with reporting about Darfur, toxic toys, Tibet riots, etc. - that's completely fair and necessary. But is that all there is to China? Surely not - it's what the Western media doesn't report - just as it's what the Chinese media doesn't report - that's the problem.

[Eventine]

Like I said US media like all medias have the same problems and issues. But, the Chinese media is totally different.

Two points -

1. China isn't the only country with heavy media censorship. When you say "all medias have the same problems and issues, but the Chinese media is totally different," that's simply wrong. The West != the world.

2. It's much more accurate to think of media censorship as a spectrum rather than as a dichotomy. It isn't "free vs. censored." Rather, it's degrees of freedom (and censorship).

[plato]

Two points -

1. China isn't the only country with heavy media censorship. When you say "all medias have the same problems and issues, but the Chinese media is totally different," that's simply wrong. The West != the world.

2. It's much more accurate to think of media censorship as a spectrum rather than as a dichotomy. It isn't "free vs. censored." Rather, it's degrees of freedom (and censorship).
That is fine. I used to think the same way. But, after more than 5 years of personal experience with Chinese censorship, I have changed my mind on that. How many countries can set up a firewall to shut off 1.3 billion people? During the Chinese earthquake, the US geological service site which has NOTHING against China or CCP was blocked. Why?

Go to it: http://earthquake.usgs.gov/ And see if you can find any "anti-China" thing on that site.

[Eventine]

That is fine. I used to think the same way. But, after more than 5 years of personal experience with Chinese censorship, I have changed my mind on that. How many countries can set up a firewall to shut off 1.3 billion people? During the Chinese earthquake, the US geological service site which has NOTHING against China or CCP was blocked.

I agree with this - with regards to web censorship, the Chinese government really goes far and above what's done in other countries. But there's a reason and a caveat. The reason is that China is one of the few countries in the world where autocracy and the internet coexist. Many countries with heavy media censorship have no significant internet using population. China does, so it's actually a trailblazer in this area (not something to be proud of).

The caveat is that despite their best efforts, the CCP really can't control the internet. The Chinese censors appear formidable with their sophisticated technology and manpower, but if you examine the actual results by talking to Chinese netizens, you begin to notice that the Great Firewall of China is no more effective against the invasion of information than the Great Wall of China was against the invasion of nomads. In the end, censorship will fail if the people will it to. That's the essence of my advice to TheMiddlePath - it's fine to lose faith in Western media, so long as you don't fill that vacuum by trusting Chinese media.

[plato]

I agree with this - with regards to web censorship, the Chinese government really goes far and above what's done in other countries. But there's a reason and a caveat. The reason is that the Chinese government is one of the few countries in the world where autocracy and the internet coexist. Many countries with heavy media censorship have no significant internet using population. China does, so it's actually a trailblazer in this area (not something to be proud of).

The caveat is that despite their best efforts, the CCP really can't control the internet. The Chinese censors appear formidable with their sophisticated technology and manpower, but if you examine the actual results by talking to Chinese netizens, you begin to notice that the Great Firewall of China is no more effective against the invasion of information than the Great Wall of China was against the invasion of nomads.The Chinese netizens you were referring to are very small in number. Most of them don't know how to go around the wall. The fact that CCP can have such huge resources to censor the whole media, not just the internet, makes China a very unique place. That is why I said the Chinese media is VERY different.

[plato]

My Chinese friends asked me to send screenshots of the US geological service site, becasue it was blocked in China during the big earthquake. This fact made a lot of Chinese nervous, they thought maybe there were something worse gona happen, and the CCP didn't want them to know. Go check out that site yourself, and see if you can find anything negative about CCP there. I tried, and couldn't find any.

[Eventine]

The Chinese netizens you were referring to are very small in number. Most of them don't know how to go around the wall. The fact that CCP can have such huge resources to censor the whole media, not just the internet, makes China a very unique place. That is why I said the Chinese media is VERY different.

I'm not sure I buy that, mostly because it doesn't match the reality I see visiting places like Beijing (which, being the capital, should naturally be subject to a lot of censorship). The CCP might devote a huge amount of resources into information control, but it's not very effective, judging by how well-informed the students I talked to were.

So while I agree with you that the net censorship situation in China is pretty unique, I don't think it's as effective as you make it out to be. Things like the US geological survey site being blocked, for example, is a demonstration of its crudeness. It's easy to turn off a section of the internet (as any service provider knows), but as your own experience demonstrated, people's response to that will be to suspect that something is going on and pursue other venues. The more people do this, the less they trust the government. This is the failure of censorship, rather than the success.

[plato]

I'm not sure I buy that, mostly because it doesn't match the reality I see visiting places like Beijing (which, being the capital, should naturally be subject to a lot of censorship). The CCP might devote a huge amount of resources into information control, but it's not very effective, judging by how well-informed the students I talked to were.You are just like me when I first started to explore the Chinese world under CCP. Hope you keep up talking to them.

[Eventine]

You are just like me when I first started to explore the Chinese world under CCP. Hope you keep up talking to them.

I will, though I'll also point out that my experience is shared by many people who have worked in China for years, if not decades. Of course, I'm restricting my scope to the cities. Rural areas, which don't even have internet access in many cases, are naturally far less informed.

[Ordie]

This does not bode well with China's image abroad. Especially for a country that is devoid of Nobel Prize winners.

Here's a plan.

Instead of lambasting the Nobel Committee, why doesn't Hu Jintao and the entire Politburo engage in an accomodation with the Dalai Lama (Nobel winner) in establishing peace in Tibet.

This way the CCP has a better chance of getting the Nobel Prize and gain face at home and abroad.

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

I will, though I'll also point out that my experience is shared by many people who have worked in China for years, if not decades. Of course, I'm restricting my scope to the cities. Rural areas, which don't even have internet access in many cases, are naturally far less informed.

I will interject here. It really depends on your six degree of separation and circle of contacts.

Most who have worked in China will form a different opinion to those who are there for religion/anti government activity. Their view will be different to those who teach there. Your circle of engagement directly colours your perception of reality.

Even which sector you work as an expat in China will affect how you view it. Plato is simply too narrow minded to realise this. He is all about the evil CCP and its media censorship, and how Chinese in general dont know about dissidents and their plight. He doesnt draw the link that their plight is a direct result of their failure to draw universal attention and simpathy, because their issues are only one of many facets. HIV blood, collapsing mines/bad safety, milk, QA or there lack of, lack of political freedom, media controls are not issues the Chinese public will be willing to rock the boat over and capsize it. They will tap the boat captaint (CCP) on the shoulder and say "Hey you got a problem here, this boat is pretty full and we dont want to cause more trouble than there already is and we definitely dont want to go for another swim (re 1840 to 1940s and 1960-70), but you got a (insert problem) here. You have done a good job so far, all things considering, but can you take a look at this and do something about it."

Mao was a dissident when he started. The difference is his cause is universally felt by Chinese, and overwhelmingly supported.

Adux and plato are of the same, only ethnicity and continent separate their delusions about China.

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

I will, though I'll also point out that my experience is shared by many people who have worked in China for years, if not decades. Of course, I'm restricting my scope to the cities. Rural areas, which don't even have internet access in many cases, are naturally far less informed.

Not sure whether this is useful, but 200 million rural migrants work in the cities, the majority in their 20-30s. I would not just brush rural peasants as less informed, they just care about things that ACTUALLY affect their livelyhood. Actually most Chinese can be described as such. What the Chinese government said about the Nobel prize and which dissident would not really interest majority of Chinese, hence sometimes my mirth at its ham fisted approach to propaganda and censorship.

[china_police]

Nothing! That's why they didn't win. The CCP warned, but her people don't even know about this warning. I just read the Chinese news report on this, NOT a word about these Chinese guys. They reported on all the others candidates. Why? Because these Chinese dissidents have failed!

You are a fool. I don't care about your political views.
But do you really think Chinese people are stupid know nothing about the outside world? If that's what you think, I say you are very naive. Whether it is right or wrong, I think people have the right to decide. I won't comment on politics.

[china_police]

The Chinese netizens you were referring to are very small in number. Most of them don't know how to go around the wall. The fact that CCP can have such huge resources to censor the whole media, not just the internet, makes China a very unique place. That is why I said the Chinese media is VERY different.

In the police station in China, there is one rule, don't use proxy servers to surf the new while on duty. Of course, according to your own view, most Chinese people are ignorant.

[V.I.D.]

B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Politics http://static.b92.net/images/trans.gif Ahtisaari: No EU without Kosovo recognition 19 October 2008 | 10:10 | Source: Tanjug, The Guardian LONDON -- Former international mediator for Kosovo Martti Ahtisaari says that Serbia must agree to Kosovo’s independence if it wants to join the EU.

http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/150254568848faf08a016f8322443906_MidCol.jpgMartti Ahtisaari (FoNet, archive)

Ahtisaari, whose plan for Kosovo was never adopted at the UN, told The Guardian that Serbia had no option but to accept this state of affairs.

The London daily notes that Ahtisaari did not devote much time to Serbia’s success in having the issue of the legality of the province’s independence referred to the International Court of Justice.

The former Finnish president added that it did not matter that only 51 out of the UN’s 192 member states had so far recognized Kosovo’s independence.

“It really doesn't matter if Paraguay hasn't recognized," Ahtisaari said. "Well over 65 percent of the wealth of the world has recognized. That matters."

As regards Serbia’s refusal to ever recognize Kosovo’s independence, Ahtisaari said that Belgrade would have to do so if it wanted to join the EU.

"You can't be poking the EU in the eye [while] saying you want to join EU," he stressed.

The former UN mediator said that very soon after taking up his post he had sent a private message to all sides that Kosovo’s secession was inevitable.

“" in light of what had happened in Kosovo, the return of Kosovo to Serbia is not a viable option," adding that “since March 2006 no one should have had any illusion what my plan was going to be”.

Ahtisaari also dismissed any comparisons with Georgia and South Ossetia.

"We did Kosovo within the UN framework. In Georgia there was not even an attempt," he argued. "You cannot go into an independent country and do whatever you like. Even if you are Russia."

Ahtisari was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for 2008 last week.



I'm pretty sure Nobel would turn in his grave if he knew what kind of a slimebag got the Peace Prize this year. Hypocritical and arrogant cretin who think he's got God-given right to interfere in other countries' affairs ("my plan is the only way to go", "Serbs are guilty as a nation", etc.). His "brilliant plan" was rejected in the UN, but all is swell when you're well-paid puppet with the assignment given to you by one of the [I]wealthy countries.

[plato]

In the 60's, my father-in-law watched "Doctor Zhivago" when all western movies were banned in China. Some people just don't understand the difference between banning movies by the government, and being able to watch these banned movies.

How was my father-in-law able to watch these banned movies? Let me just say he was privileged. BTW, the film "to live" is still banned in China as of today.

[TheMiddlePath]

How does Cafferty's comments, if racist, make you get a feeling that it is systematic? Why should US or Western press do a better reporting on China? This is NOT about bad reporting or better reporting. There are many lazy, plain lying reporters. But, the US government cannot control these media, while Chinese government can. That is the fundmental difference. There are examples of bad American reportings on youtube everyday. The US media has done nothing wrong in all of those events you have mentioned, Darfur crisis, bad toys, Tibet riots, etc.... You don't need to waste time to tell us those stories, anymore. They were told at MP.net hundreds of times already by other Chinese members. We all know your stories.
Wen Ho Lee spend 11 months in solitary confinement, banned from speaking Mandarin, then put through a Kangaroo court with trumped up charges. And that happened in United States. All because of the US press.
The 2 reporters from NY times that was mainly responsible for that are still walking free today. This is the so call "excellent Western media reporting".

[TheMiddlePath]

Plato posted "So, the Western Press is supposed to do a better job reporting China than China herself?"

Press in China is controlled. Everybody knows that. But what has the western media has to offer China. Nothing much apparently.

If you want to promote responsible press reporting in China, you do not do that by distorted, baised and outright false reporting. You need to gain the people's respect first. Due to the "excellent" Tibet protest reports, the western media in fact has caused irepparable long term damage. (As stated by Singapore's PM). New generations of Chinese now look at Western countries with even more suspicion and perhaps hatred.

[plato]

Indeed, the western media has been very good in reporting the Tibet protests and riots. A much much better reporting than the Chinese media. Apparently, the western media has a lot to offer. I want to promote FREE PRESS, and free press can be very bad, too. Long term damage? What damage? How is this hatred compared to the red guards' generation? I am not worried at all, because we have seen worse. Also, our friends in the CCP will keep these kids' mouth shut anyway. They are more worried about this hatred than us.

[domokun]

Plato posted "So, the Western Press is supposed to do a better job reporting China than China herself?"

Press in China is controlled. Everybody knows that. But what has the western media has to offer China. Nothing much apparently.

If you want to promote responsible press reporting in China, you do not do that by distorted, baised and outright false reporting. You need to gain the people's respect first. Due to the "excellent" Tibet protest reports, the western media in fact has caused irepparable long term damage. (As stated by Singapore's PM). New generations of Chinese now look at Western countries with even more suspicion and perhaps hatred.

I don't see how truth can harm China. It doesn't damage citizens, government but it may hurt tyrannical nomenklatura that rules country. That would make those corrupted officials run country. That cloud make them subjected real communism, to rage of proletarian masses.

[TheMiddlePath]

I don't see how truth can harm China. It doesn't damage citizens, government but it may hurt tyrannical nomenklatura that rules country. That would make those corrupted officials run country. That cloud make them subjected real communism, to rage of proletarian masses.

But sometimes the truth does hurt. When CNN published pictures of Muslim decerating Hindu temple several years ago, the Hindu went on a rampage of revenge and resulted in a riots that ended in thousands being killed and injured.

The western media is indeed very powerful. It can kill a princess, it can send a innocent man to 11 months of confinement, it can send a country to war on lies.
But it has NO responsibilities.

[Ordie]

But it has NO responsibilities.

Why should the press be responsible for people's behavior?

[TheMiddlePath]

Indeed, the western media has been very good in reporting the Tibet protests and riots. A much much better reporting than the Chinese media. Apparently, the western media has a lot to offer. I want to promote FREE PRESS, and free press can be very bad, too. Long term damage? What damage? How is this hatred compared to the red guards' generation? I am not worried at all, because we have seen worse. Also, our friends in the CCP will keep these kids' mouth shut anyway. They are more worried about this hatred than us.


Red guards ? You dwell too much into the past. Lessons were learn. China has move forward. But did US press learn any lessons from the past. Wen Ho Lee in fact is almost a repeat of Tsien Hsue-shen case.

US media can be systemic. During the 2008 Beijing Olympic not one ....and I repeat... not one of the major US media reported the medals tally by Gold first.

Again, not one of the major US media reported any news about the Para Olympic medal tally. Both the Athens and Beijing games.

Very strange.

Even all the reports from Darfur were so simplitic. Its all about Arabs VS the Africans.

And why don't CNN just fire Jack Caffety ? Because Jack Caffety racist show brings bigs bucks to CNN.
And when will Chinese learn that an apology from the west is worth nothing.

[TheMiddlePath]

Odie posted "Why should the press be responsible for people's behavior?"

So what role does a press play ?

[Ordie]

And why don't CNN just fire Jack Caffety ? Because Jack Caffety racist show brings bigs bucks to CNN.
And when will Chinese learn that an apology from the west is worth nothing.

How many Asians vote in US Elections and buy from CNN sponsors?

[Ordie]

So what role does a press play ?

How people react to a news story is a personal issue of that individual. Not the press.

As for the press, its a highly competitive environment. You never sell newspapers or TV Rating for advertizers with good news.

I would like to see Lou Dobbs fired, but he brings $$$$$$ to CNN. So I stopped watching CNN.

[plato]

Not strange at all, people here don't care about the para olympic, so why report about it? Just because the Chinese are crazy about it, doesn't mean we all have to. Jack Caffery has done nothing wrong, so why fire him? He is not a racist, either. Wen Ho Lee got an apology from Bill Clinton, it is very rare for a president to do that.


Anyway, someone clearly has no clue about the difference between FREE PRESS and GOOD or responsible press.

I already know where this is going to end up, so I will stop with these hopeless people.

[Ordie]

Not strange at all, people here don't care about the para olympic, so why report about it? Just because the Chinese are crazy about it, doesn't mean we all have to. Jack Caffery has done nothing wrong, so why fire him? He is not a racist, either. Wen Ho Lee got an apology from Bill Clinton, it is very rare for a president to do that.


Anyway, someone clearly has no clue about the difference between FREE PRESS and GOOD or responsible press.

I already know where this is going to end up, so I will stop with these hopeless people.

If you don't like the news, change the channel. Or make some news of your own.

[TheMiddlePath]

How people react to a news story is a personal issue of that individual. Not the press.

As for the press, its a highly competitive environment. You never sell newspapers or TV Rating for advertizers with good news.

I would like to see Lou Dobbs fired, but he brings $$$$$$ to CNN. So I stopped watching CNN.

So am I right to say that the press do not provide check and balance but cater more to $$$ for the corporation ?

Good. That admittion is a small step in the right direction.

[TheMiddlePath]

Not strange at all, people here don't care about the para olympic, so why report about it? Just because the Chinese are crazy about it, doesn't mean we all have to. Jack Caffery has done nothing wrong, so why fire him? He is not a racist, either. Wen Ho Lee got an apology from Bill Clinton, it is very rare for a president to do that.


Anyway, someone clearly has no clue about the difference between FREE PRESS and GOOD or responsible press.

I already know where this is going to end up, so I will stop with these hopeless people.
So you agree that Clinton indicted Wen Ho Lee because of the press. In the end he and the entire United States was fooled by the press.

Good that admition is a small step in the right direction.

If Jack Cafferty did nothing wrong, why did his boss apologised. Was the apology meaningless...worthless.

[plato]

So you agree that Clinton indicted Wen Ho Lee because of the press. In the end he and the entire United States was fooled by the press.

Good that admition is a small step in the right direction.

If Jack Cafferty did nothing wrong, why did his boss apologised. Was the apology meaningless...worthless.
Yes, the apology was totally meaningless and worthless. Chinese people didn't accept it anyway. As for the Wen Ho Lee case, US was NEVER fooled by the press. If anything, the press was fooled by the FBI.

[TheMiddlePath]

Plato posted "Not strange at all, people here don't care about the para olympic, so why report about it? Just because the Chinese are crazy about it, doesn't mean we all have to."

And you beleive that ? So sad.

[seathru]

The bottom line is, after the Western media fiasco in reporting Iraq WMD, the Tibet riots, and Beijing Olympics, they now have the same credibility of the Chinese media, at best. Basically, this generation of Chinese do not trust the Western media anymore. This is the irreparable damage the Western media have done - to themselves.

[plato]

Plato posted "Not strange at all, people here don't care about the para olympic, so why report about it? Just because the Chinese are crazy about it, doesn't mean we all have to."

And you beleive that ? So sad.I don't need to believe it, because it is the truth. Para olympic has NEVER been a big deal here in US. So, why should Americans react differently when it is held in China? It is the truth. If you think it is a sad truth, so be it. But, it is still the truth.

[domokun]

The bottom line is, after the Western media fiasco in reporting Iraq WMD, the Tibet riots, and Beijing Olympics, they now have the same credibility of the Chinese media, at best. Basically, this generation of Chinese do not trust the Western media anymore. This is the irreparable damage the Western media have done - to themselves.

How those well western media is more experienced in fooling ignorants to believe that we actually have society that allows us more freedoms, better health care, more equal laws and no party related nomenklatura oligarchy that is entirely dictating and manipulating your opinion. Coercing your entire perception of surrounding world by choosing information that suitable for you, instead your self.

©1984 Kaikki kansalaiset pidätetään.

[seathru]

/\
Let me clarify. I meant when Western media reports Chinese affairs nowadays, less Chinese believe them now.

[plato]

Let me also clarify. I don't care if the Chinese believe in Western media reports or not. Or how bad the western reportings are. I can propably give you even more examples of bad Western media reportings than you. It still doesn't change the fact that there is NO free press in China.

[Ordie]

So am I right to say that the press do not provide check and balance but cater more to $$$ for the corporation ?

Good. That admittion is a small step in the right direction.

It depends on the target audience.

Do you think a newspaper will sell with a Paralympics headline or the latest drama on Britney Spears life in Middle America?. Do you think 50 cents covers the cost of the print? No, newspapers live and die on advertizers. If there's no captivating headline or expose, then people will not buy a newspaper and advertizers will seek other venues.

The sad fact is that we no longer read the newspapers to inform ourselves in all topics (headlines, opinion, sports, weather and comics).

Unfortunately with the internet today, we pick and choose a specific news topic that validates our beliefs and prejudices, and shove it on to other people. If we don't like the news, we negate and discredit the source. In the end we become very narrow minded and not willing to learn from others.

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

In the 60's, my father-in-law watched "Doctor Zhivago" when all western movies were banned in China. Some people just don't understand the difference between banning movies by the government, and being able to watch these banned movies.

How was my father-in-law able to watch these banned movies? Let me just say he was privileged. BTW, the film "to live" is still banned in China as of today.

You know plato, as a person the more I read your posts the more I think you are really a low cowardly yellow belly dog. Lets start with your claims:

You claim your father in law is some high up corrupt official, therefore you are some sort of expert in the CCP.
You claim you are such a bleeding heart and love freedom/democracy yet you still MARRIED the daughter of a corrupt official.
You claim to speak with various CCP officials that made disparaging remarks and also has phone number of CCP officials living in the US of A with ill gotten gains.
Here is what I know of you:

Substance - nil. You claim a lot, yet provided very little detail. I mean you claim your father in law is this and that, yet what about yourself? No one really know YOU.
Shiat bro, I think thats about it, no one knows you!
Here is what I think is your problem:

Did you know your father in law is corrupt before your marriage? If you did what did you still go ahead? From your post it sounds like you have a difficult time of dealing with it. I know you shouldnt judge someone based on what their parents done/did and really its got nothing to do with your relationship with your wife, but why air this here? Since you have made it public consumption, dont mind if I ask some hard questions.
Was it for political/career/business that you married a "corrupt" CCCP official's daughter? Or is really blind love? Cant see it as being a easy decision for someone who is moralising all the time.
Would you like to see him get caught? Is this why you are telling us about him here? Or maybe you dont want him to get caught and therefore is being vague about details. Which brings the question, why are you USING him, we cant verify the veracity of your claims because if we did then potentially you have placed someone's live at risk, that of your father in law. Maybe thats the point, it makes you sound believable (married to a corrupt CCP family) yet you dont have to provide anything of solid substance.
What about your wife? What would happen to her if he is caught? I cant say she be pleased, no matter how much you/her/both disprove of his "corrupt" behaviour...which so far amounts to watching a banned western film back in the 60s and little else.
Are you afraid if he is sprung you would be affected too? Are you afraid (just a little) of that?
So you cast accusations/claims in the safety of anomynity and using someone else's (whom happened to be related by marriage to you) dirty laundry waving around as irrefutable prove.

So we are supposed to believe that you are this uncorrupt, ethical and moral person, whom has married a daughter of a corrupt, priviledged CCP official, whom so far you have accused of committing the crime of watching a banned movie in the 60s. And another of making a stupid comment about value of life (althought he does speak some truth there, no matter how unpalateble it is). And a man of mystery living in the USA with dirty money. All it seems, to be your circle of aquaintances/contacts.

Man do you know what you are? You are a coward, a judas, with no currency. You are betraying your wife/father in law's trust/confidence, at the same time nothing you say against them has any value, since you wont give any credence to your claims. You are a coward, since it is obvious your convictions are so strong that you feel the need to say this here, but not strong enough for you to do anything about, like maybe getting your wife to disown her father for his corrupt behaviour. Report him? Or is her father's position beneficial to you?

So listen, here is some advice for you - get some cement, water and a glass and harden the fcuk up. There is a lot more to life than telling us pillow talk stuff (tell me she didnt tell you about the movie thing after you gave her one) between you and the daughter of a corrupt CCP official.

Dont get hung up on it man, if its bothering you so much just go and knock the top off. It will make you feel better I promise.

And hey man if you feel the heat its because since you brought this into the kitchen, I am just turning the heat on.

I am like a bad smell man, I just hang around and since you have got my interest now I am on you like a bad rash.

[plato]

It depends on the target audience.

Do you think a newspaper will sell with a Paralympics headline or the latest drama on Britney Spears life in Middle America?. Do you think 50 cents covers the cost of the print? No, newspapers live and die on advertizers. If there's no captivating headline or expose, then people will not buy a newspaper and advertizers will seek other venues.

The sad fact is that we no longer read the newspapers to inform ourselves in all topics (headlines, opinion, sports, weather and comics).

Unfortunately with the internet today, we pick and choose a specific news topic that validates our beliefs and prejudices, and shove it on to other people. If we don't like the news, we negate and discredit the source. In the end we become very narrow minded and not willing to learn from others. At China's www.sina.com.cn (http://www.sina.com.cn) the paralympics was the main headline for the entire time of the game. Even the tanited milk scandal was no match with the paralympics. I understand why it can be the headline for one or two days, but it was the main headline every single day while the tanited milk scandal was going on. That is another example why the Chinese media is totally different.

[TheMiddlePath]

The bottom line is, after the Western media fiasco in reporting Iraq WMD, the Tibet riots, and Beijing Olympics, they now have the same credibility of the Chinese media, at best. Basically, this generation of Chinese do not trust the Western media anymore. This is the irreparable damage the Western media have done - to themselves.

Yes....And what a sweet blessing it is.

[LaoSexMachine]

Yes....And what a sweet blessing it is.


You also believe the Falun Gong is a CIA front. Chinese Media. Chinese are too nationalistic. The motherland can't do no wrong even though alot of them think that don't even live there.

[TheMiddlePath]

You also believe the Falun Gong is a CIA front. Chinese Media. Chinese are too nationalistic. The motherland can't do no wrong even though alot of them think that don't even live there.


Not true. FLG is not. NED is. FLG are just running dogs.

Chinese did not do any of the "excellent" reporting. Western media did all the mistakes and shooting their own foot. In a way they showed their true colors. Don't blame the Chinese just because 87% who live there are happy with their government.

[Ordie]

Chinese did not do any of the "excellent" reporting. Western media did all the mistakes and shooting their own foot. In a way they showed their true colors. Don't blame the Chinese just because 87% who live there are happy with their government.

What about the 13% who are unhappy?

[BloodyTalon]

Not true. FLG is not. NED is. FLG are just running dogs.

rofl you do realize you haven't disproved Zeke's claim in the slightest, do you?

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

At China's www.sina.com.cn (http://www.sina.com.cn) the paralympics was the main headline for the entire time of the game. Even the tanited milk scandal was no match with the paralympics. I understand why it can be the headline for one or two days, but it was the main headline every single day while the tanited milk scandal was going on. That is another example why the Chinese media is totally different.

Hey man anytime you feel brave enough to back your shiat up and/or ask me to back mine mate, I am here.

Just letting you know I still care, a bit. p-)

[Mobydog]

What about the 13% who are unhappy?What about them ? That's not a democratic thing to ask. Majority mob rules remember ? These days and a long time ago, It's hard pressed to even get beyond 40% approval ratings for the Ruling Republican party.

[plato]

Democracy is not just about "Majority mob rules", or 50/50 chance at picking the "right" candidates. It is mostly about balance of power. If it is only about "Majority mob rules", then how come the Iraq War is still going on? Did the majority of Americans really support equal rights for the blacks back in the 60s? Why are millions of illegal immigrants still in this country? etc.....

[Ordie]

Its the responsibility of the majority to protect the minority.

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

Democracy is not just about "Majority mob rules", or 50/50 chance at picking the "right" candidates. It is mostly about balance of power. If it is only about "Majority mob rules", then how come the Iraq War is still going on? Did the majority of Americans really support equal rights for the blacks back in the 60s? Why are millions of illegal immigrants still in this country? etc.....

Gee, going off track again? China isnt a democracy, and mentioning examples of America makes SFA difference.

Are you still claiming that chinese students get taught that they are a democracy in school?

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

Its the responsibility of the majority to protect the minority.

Sorry mate, really hard to work this one out, what if the majority chooses not to protect the minority, or indifference?

You dont need to raise the WW2 example, but suppose thats the case, whos going to force the majority to comply? Democracy? Or undemocratic means?

Good ideals, but idealism get smashed up when thrown against the brick wall of reality and human self interest/preservation.

***YAY for 300th post!***

[Ordie]

Sorry mate, really hard to work this one out, what if the majority chooses not to protect the minority, or indifference?

No harmony

[plato]

Chinese students are being taught that their system is a democratic one which is stated clearly in their constitution. However, there is a catch here. The whole term is "democratic dictatorship". Instead of stressing on the "dictatorship" part, they ONLY teach the students about the "democratic" part. Even the CCP knows that the word "dictatorship" is not very appealing to young people or any Chinese.



CHAPTER I. GENERAL PRINCIPLES

Article 1. The People's Republic of China is a socialist state under the people's democratic dictatorship led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants. The socialist system is the basic system of the People's Republic of China. Sabotage of the socialist system by any organization or individual is prohibited.
Article 2. All power in the People's Republic of China belongs to the people. The organs through which the people exercise state power are the National People's Congress and the local people's congresses at different levels. The people administer state affairs and manage economic, cultural and social affairs through various channels and in various ways in accordance with the law.
Article 3. The state organs of the People's Republic of China apply the principle of democratic centralism. The National People's Congress and the local people's congresses at different levels are instituted through democratic election. They are responsible to the people and subject to their supervision. All administrative, judicial and procuratorial organs of the state are created by the people's congresses to which they are responsible and under whose supervision they operate. The division of functions and powers between the central and local state organs is guided by the principle of giving full play to the initiative and enthusiasm of the local authorities under the unified leadership of the central authorities.

[TheMiddlePath]

rofl you do realize you haven't disproved Zeke's claim in the slightest, do you?


Not sure what you mean. But perhaps these are what you mean ?


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=NED+CIA+Link&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Allen+Weinstein+NED&btnG=Search

[plato]

Just saw three FLG members protesting outside the Chinese consulate in L.A. this morning. I was there to get my visa. Yup, I am going to China.

[Supe]

Adux and plato are of the same, only ethnicity and continent separate their delusions about China.

Plato has argued his/her? point reasonably. I don't see any anti-China mantra going on here. You might as well include Eventine as well if this is the case. Eventine tends to a devils advocate view but is on the whole making some sound observations about CCP and the negative role of media in that country. Is Eventine also delusional? Swap Plato for the TheMiddlePath (what middle path?) and I'd agree to the jingoistic nature of their agenda. I mean, he even inserts old school communist rhetoric by uttering 'running dogs' in one of his comments.

[TheMiddlePath]

Just saw three FLG members protesting outside the Chinese consulate in L.A. this morning. I was there to get my visa. Yup, I am going to China.
What they gave you a VISA ?

[BloodyTalon]

Not sure what you mean. But perhaps these are what you mean ?


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=NED+CIA+Link&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Allen+Weinstein+NED&btnG=Search
Yeah, those sights are REAL credible :roll: come back again when you have concrete proof that the NED is a CIA front. And no, a bunch of fringe sites you found by typing in google doesn't count.

[plato]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=356&pictureid=7299

I was going to talk to those old FLG ladies, but they were meditating. Didn't want to disturb them.

[TheMiddlePath]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=356&pictureid=7299

I was going to talk to those old FLG ladies, but they were meditating. Didn't want to disturb them.


Must have beg for it.

[ren0312]

Democracy is not just about "Majority mob rules", or 50/50 chance at picking the "right" candidates. It is mostly about balance of power. If it is only about "Majority mob rules", then how come the Iraq War is still going on? Did the majority of Americans really support equal rights for the blacks back in the 60s? Why are millions of illegal immigrants still in this country? etc.....\

This is so wrong I do not even know where to start, do you even know the etymology of the word democracy? Did you take Political Science 101 in college? How about Greek history, specifically about ancient Athens.

[plato]

\

This is so wrong I do not even know where to start, do you even know the etymology of the word democracy? Did you take Political Science 101 in college? How about Greek history, specifically about ancient Athens.
Not sure about Greek history, but I do know they don't like to be called "Greek". Well, if you don't know where to start, then better not to start. Or will you?

[plato]

Must have beg for it.
Thanks! But, I won't eat that cake. Not planning on eating anything related to milk in China.

[Jaegermeister + Red Bull]

Plato has argued his/her? point reasonably. I don't see any anti-China mantra going on here. You might as well include Eventine as well if this is the case. Eventine tends to a devils advocate view but is on the whole making some sound observations about CCP and the negative role of media in that country. Is Eventine also delusional? Swap Plato for the TheMiddlePath (what middle path?) and I'd agree to the jingoistic nature of their agenda. I mean, he even inserts old school communist rhetoric by uttering 'running dogs' in one of his comments.

He already says he married a CCP officials daughter, althought there is a 50% chance his/her favourite olympic sport is diving.

He is like the shrill sounds of anti-CCP free western media vs pro-CCP controlled government media, plato is all about the negatives and likes to nit picking on what was taught to children in China's school about their government system. He compares favourablely with the occasional flood of pro-CCP fanboys (I am disinclined to call them chicom agents for the fact that I have no basis for my claims except their poor english and expressed views) whom gets banned fairly fast.

Plato since he express a view that is consciously/subconsciously viewd more positively in this forum has been allowed to remain unchallenged. No anti China (CCP is China, no matter how much some try to differentiate between the two - if you want to talk about this we can start a new thread) mantra here mate? Give me a break! How about the almost instantenous label of someone that is pro-China as chicom? Its getting to the point as almost as bad as the "nazi" label to stop a debate dead in the track. Time to update the goodwin law methinks.

Here there might not be a overt and in your face sort of anti-western mantra that is bared for all to see in some Chinese run forums/bbs dealing with the same stuff. Post negative things about China, and its a generally warm reception, with plenty of armchair pundits offering their morsels of wisdom best left at the home kitchen table with cans of UDL.

But hey post anything postive about China here, and its like you cant help but attract a bad case of herpes. Like when someone posts about SZ7 mission, and another posts a photo of a broken can opener (supposedly made in China). Are they inferring that the SZ7 is the made of the same quality and/or going to meet the same fate as the can opener due to their shared country of origin? But when another poster puts a picture of the Challenger doing the atmospheric splits in response, he gets banished to the naughty corner cos he has posted material that is offensive?

Tell me, what is more offensive? An inferrence based on negative stereotype or one that is a photo depicting a real past event?

But hey I am a realist, this is after all a forum run by people who makes the rules, and I am a believer in the refs call is final.

When plato gets challenged he chucks a sooky lala and starts calling people chicom in bold red letters, and make grandiose claims that he has yet to provide some backing. Plato is like a stuck record, constantly replaying Vanilla Ice.

Eventine meanwhile has been providing very insightful views, some that I am rather surprised would be coming from a westerner. Like Kotemore, a devils advocate, and almost all times provide refreshing ideas for debate.