Muhammed look-a-like competition at Frankfurt Book Fair [Archive]

Macs.

10-09-2008, 09:25 AM

MUHAMMAD LOOK-ALIKES

German Satire Magazine Shocks with 'Unbelievable Competition'

A Muhammed look-a-like competition is slated to take place during the Frankfurt Book Fair, and it has already offended and outraged people far beyond Germany. But Titanic, the monthly satirical magazine behind the inflamatory event, insists: "It will be a blast."

Titanic, the German satire magazine, is never far from polemics, but its latest action takes its reputation for controversy to new heights: It is staging a Muhammed look-a-like competition -- and has invited the Turkish President Abdullah Gül to take part.

Turkish newspapers were quick to react to the "unbelievable competition," which is to be held parallel to the Frankfurt Book Fair, where Turkey will be the guest country this year. The popular Turkish daily Sabah drew parallels with the infamous Muhammed cartoons published in Denmark's Jyllands-Posten newspaper in 2005, which sparked death threats and protests across the Muslim world, with some escalating into violence.

According to its Web site, however, Titanic is going ahead with its look-alike contest: "Come along to the most dangerous event of the Frankfurt Book Fair ... It will be a blast," it wrote. The competition, to be held on Oct. 18, is set to take place on a specially built stage at the state-funded Caricatura Museum in Frankfurt. Achim Frenz, head of the museum, said it was designed to test of the boundaries of "jokes and fun." The museum's Web site comments: "Of course it is a sin to represent the prophet. For this reason, we are trying to do something exceptional."

Nine participants are expected to take part, including Osman Engin, a Turkish-German satirist, and Hans Zippert, a prominent columnist for the conservative daily Die Welt. During the competition there will be readings from the Koran and participants will be encouraged mimic the Muslim prophet. "Of course you can never create a picture of the prophet," the magazine claims in a flyer advertising the event, "but you can try to emulate him."

Titanic, the German equivalent of Britain's Private Eye, has a track record of inflamatory stunts, including hoax bribery faxes sent in 2000 to delegates of the FIFA soccer world championship committee, urging them to support the German bid for the 2006 World Cup. In return for their votes, Titanic offered gifts of a cuckoo clock and Black Forest ham. Titanic also founded its own political party, Die Partei (the party), which lists the rebuilding of the Berlin Wall as one of its goals.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,583132,00.html

C.MAXIMUS

10-09-2008, 09:30 AM

"Come along to the most dangerous event of the Frankfurt Book Fair ... It will be a blast,"rofl

seraosha

10-09-2008, 09:30 AM

This is going to be fun to keep track of, thanks man.

Carib

10-09-2008, 10:01 AM

Eoin666

10-09-2008, 10:29 AM

Germans with a sense of humour.....whatever next

PeterRJG

10-09-2008, 10:53 AM

http://www.aesedra.com/ljcrap/outrage.jpg

PeterG

10-09-2008, 11:03 AM

People need to realize that we are at war with terrorists, many of which are Muslim. They way we behave is critical, I mean some sort of respect should be displayed towards this subject. Am I completely wrong about this...

Yes. F*ck 'em if they can't take a joke.

Zoomie

10-09-2008, 11:27 AM

For all that is said about racial profiling and America not being sensitive to the needs of Muslims; Europe seems to be doing a good job of making themselves targets of extremist hate. I mean with the cartoons, films, and now something like this it is no wonder terrorists have targeted Europe.

People need to realize that we are at war with terrorists, many of which are Muslim. They way we behave is critical, I mean some sort of respect should be displayed towards this subject. Am I completely wrong about this...
Yeah, you're completely wrong, because you think we should behave so as to appease the terrorists.

Russian_dude

10-09-2008, 03:06 PM

Sounds like a blast... or two.

The Dane

10-09-2008, 03:11 PM

Exciting times ahead on German embassies in the muslim world.

Breakfast in Vegas

10-09-2008, 03:11 PM

Yes. F*ck 'em if they can't take a joke.x2. Exactly right.

Polygon

10-09-2008, 03:13 PM

x2. Exactly right.

x3... Agreed

I'm sure flags are already being burned...

Weasel

10-09-2008, 03:20 PM

Titanic - always good for a scandal.

Unfortunately much too expensive for an anarchical magazine.

RSone

10-09-2008, 03:20 PM

Yes. F*ck 'em if they can't take a joke.

x2. Exactly right.

x3... Agreed

I'm sure flags are already being burned...

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc258/RsShogun/motivator8202355.jpg

The Dane

10-09-2008, 03:27 PM

http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t340/heinedenmark/1-9.jpg
http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t340/heinedenmark/2-10.jpg

Carib

10-09-2008, 03:29 PM

Yeah, you're completely wrong, because you think we should behave so as to appease the terrorists.

I didn't say appease did I? No i didn't. Look treat others as you want to be treated yourself. No wonder they're going around blowing half the world up.

I hope you say that next time some people get blown up at some random Euro embassy abroad. There are innocent victims dying every day because of the actions not only of the terrorists who are responsible (and whom should burn in hell) but also those who provoke this hatred.

I think senseless stupid ideas like making fun of someones religion is no way to insert yourself into a serious conversation.

BlackFlag

10-09-2008, 03:33 PM

Does the German government have power to shut this down?

(I personally think they should still do it.)

Love Cyprus

10-09-2008, 03:34 PM

This is more than a joke.

Macs.

10-09-2008, 03:37 PM

MoFo

10-09-2008, 03:37 PM

Germans...Carrion

DZMouloudia

10-09-2008, 03:44 PM

I see that the Germans did not lose their sense of humor that goes way back to the 30's and 40's. Just a different target this time:)

Carib

10-09-2008, 03:57 PM

Seems that some of the German public would rather incite violence then actually try and quell it.

Instead of making happy fun day jokes, the German public should lobby their government to implement an aggressive offensive strategy in A-STAN to rid enemy elements in their sector.

Carib

10-09-2008, 03:58 PM

Think about what bull**** you are really saying here. :roll:

I did maybe I missed something, please enlighten me.

The Balkan

10-09-2008, 04:01 PM

So...anyone with a beard and tanned skin? Lol

Macs.

10-09-2008, 04:04 PM

I did maybe I missed something, please enlighten me.

So, you are basically saying that we "offend" them and that's why "they" choose to strap a bomb around their bodies and detonate themselvs.

If you believe that a joke "provokes" such a offense, then I can only wish you a good night. I hope you realise what kind of ill logic that is.

Maybe the 11 september hijackers were offended by the finacial sector of the US ? :roll:

There is no legimitation for terror attacks.

marius

10-09-2008, 04:05 PM

...There are innocent victims dying every day because of the actions not only of the terrorists who are responsible (and whom should burn in hell) but also those who provoke this hatred....

There is not 'but'!
There is no justification for terror however offended people may become from something. In contrast Your combination of western apologist views combined with actual accepting the terrorist 'cause' delivers the motivation for further attacks.

seraosha

10-09-2008, 04:06 PM

I didn't say appease did I? No i didn't. Look treat others as you want to be treated yourself. No wonder they're going around blowing half the world up.

I hope you say that next time some people get blown up at some random Euro embassy abroad. There are innocent victims dying every day because of the actions not only of the terrorists who are responsible (and whom should burn in hell) but also those who provoke this hatred.

I think senseless stupid ideas like making fun of someones religion is no way to insert yourself into a serious conversation.

This is treating others the way they want to be treated...irreverence, and making fun of intolerance and making public spectacles of idiocy is how it's done in the "west". It's called Freedom of Speech, and Freedom of Expression...cornerstones of liberal democracy around the world.

Islamists have been killing anyone that disagrees with them a whole hell of a lot longer than this past decade...Muhammad was doing it, so it's pretty much par for the course from the beginning of Islam.

If making fun and dressing up as an Arab warlord and founder of a religion causes idiots to respond with violence, murder, and destruction, it's very clear who needs to change their world view...and it's not the Germans.

And to liken this to somehow being on parity with the holocaust just might be the stupidest thing I've read on these forums yet.

Invisigoth

10-09-2008, 04:21 PM

Gotta love Titanic, always pushing people's buttons. :)

Macs.

10-09-2008, 04:24 PM

Gotta love Titanic, always pushing people's buttons. :)

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l314/Macs3000/1008-finanzkrise_01.jpg

"Economic crisis solved: Merkel allows deployment of Bundeswehr in Germany"

Carib

10-09-2008, 04:25 PM

PeterG

10-09-2008, 04:26 PM

Gotta love Titanic, always pushing people's buttons. :)

X2! And i for one hereby apologize to the german nation for believing all my life, that they have no sense of humor.

toki

10-09-2008, 04:45 PM

Carib, Titanic is a privately run magazine. Just like magazines are. It's not "The Germans" this and that.
And it's a pretty funny magazine, PC is a word they don't know.

Another title: "Hope in Germany: Can he stop Schäuble?"*
http://www.titanic-magazin.de/uploads/pics/0727-neues-heft.jpg
(*German interior minister)

Weasel

10-09-2008, 04:56 PM

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm276/Weasel1973/cover0702.jpg

"Horrible suspicion: Was Hitler an anti-Semite?"

Sanat-e-naft

10-09-2008, 04:57 PM

I wonder how they will judge who wins, considering the Sunni's dont ever show his face. Gonna base it on Shi'ite images?

Laworkerbee

10-09-2008, 05:06 PM

Yes. F*ck 'em if they can't take a joke.

Fatwa time
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/2634/rageboyab3.jpg

derkrieger

10-09-2008, 05:13 PM

Would not it be cool to know what Mohammad looked like? I guess we will never know though.
Just like we never know how Jesus really looked like, except for those Teutonic versions of Him, we see everywhere.

Laworkerbee

10-09-2008, 05:14 PM

seraosha

10-09-2008, 05:17 PM

Pimpin it rage boy style.

http://britandgrit.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/rage_boy_elvis.jpg

Thor

10-09-2008, 05:32 PM

I hope you say that next time some people get blown up at some random Euro embassy abroad. There are innocent victims dying every day because of the actions not only of the terrorists who are responsible (and whom should burn in hell) but also those who provoke this hatred.
Not at all. That's called self-censorship and letting the terrorists rule you. Those fanatics have nothing to do with other countries business.

The response for every bombing should be tenfold more mohammed events.

The Dane

10-09-2008, 05:35 PM

Jesus was Black.

...and Santa Claus is an eskimo.

Laworkerbee

10-09-2008, 05:38 PM

...and Santa Claus is an eskimo.

I thought he was Finnish?

The Dane

10-09-2008, 05:42 PM

I thought he was Finnish?

No... :cantbeli: that's just a childrens story. He live at the North Pole ffs... p-)

Eoin666

10-09-2008, 05:57 PM

Would not it be cool to know what Mohammad looked like? I guess we will never know though.

I'm guessing a beard of some sort, and probably some kind of hat, maybe with a camel and palm tree in there somewhere :roll:

b0sco

10-09-2008, 06:00 PM

http://www.dezh.de/imghosting/12da2f7c8f54573b73b58a48a882f66c.jpg

Let's see.

black mamba

10-09-2008, 06:05 PM

PVJ

10-09-2008, 06:09 PM

German government better not pvssy out and ban this contest.

Thor

10-09-2008, 06:13 PM

@black_mamba

You have a point about the holocaust. However I don't see any jews setting fire to embassies. Maybe they should have a combined anti-semitic/mohammed cartoon contest next time? And no, what islamic mullahs in some country on the other side of the world think or not think should not be given any consideration whatsoever.

Calanen

10-09-2008, 06:13 PM

being somebody from "that" part of the world, i would have to agree with Carib. Terrorism is wrong and its ugly and there is no justification for it, however, in our politically charged world, this "event" is going to be turned around by the extremist mullahs in every country to show to their "recruits" that "see how hypocritical the west is?

I dont think they are short of examples to rely upon, but they mostly rely on scripture and hadith. AQ is pretty versed in Islamic texts.

when it comes to muslims, its freedom of speech but when ANYBODY says anything abt the holocaust or their own 'crimes' against iraqis or so and so, they say 'its wrong' and the person is sued / or whatever" and then, what do we have? MORE brainwashed ppl ready to sacrifice themselves on misguided ideals!

I agree with you, to a point, about the Holocaust - but only to a point. I think the Holocaust denial is manifest stupidity, but it should be allowed to be said, and debated, even if completely stupid. I like the US free speech model, true free speech - not - only the free speech we like which is more European.

In terms of Islam however, it gets a free pass in the name of religion to continually target Jews - the sons of apes and pigs, and even the stones will say there is a jew hiding here..? Sound familiar? The Zionists control the media etc - and Israeli troops are here and there. The Arab and Islamic press is full of hatred against Jews. That really needs to be cleaned up properly before there Arab and other Islamic world has any credibility in the context of 'anti-racism' or human rights.

as long as both sides are tryin to do their best to piss each other off, things are only going to get worse!

Free speech - means all speech. Even these guys.

respect for all...only then, will we end up having peace for all!......corny i know, but couldnt resist! hehe :)

There wont ever be peace for all and respect for all - because mainstream Islam is intolerant, and has no respect for other religions, or non-theocratic laws. There is a religious imperative upon the faithful to fight the unbelievers to install sharia law, the only true law, God's law. Many muslims might like to sit in a cafe rather than have a jihad. Some dont care.

But some sure do - and unless Islam is reformed so this is not part of its doctrine, there will always be fighting against the West by the tiny minority of misunderstander extremists...

Zoomie

10-09-2008, 06:37 PM

Points noted and taken. Be that as it may the unerlying issue is not this joke, the base root of this problem was the meddling of the west into the affairs of the Muslim world from day one. Period.
ROFL, do some research first as they're coming to europe and getting pissed because we don't adopt their way of life.

True they probably need to change their worldview and advance their society. If that's true, then why do you support their current world views, and that we should acquiesce to it?

I know that terror cannot be and is not justified. But if you really break it down, the hate comes from us being somewhere we are not wanted. You think joking about this is going to get us anywhere. It's a waste of our time and resources. Then why were you justifying it earlier in this thread, let alone this post?

No matter what I say or how I say it I will get shot down, so I'm done.
Too bad you can't admit you're wrong.

derkrieger

10-09-2008, 06:41 PM

I dont think they are short of examples to rely upon, but they mostly rely on scripture and hadith. AQ is pretty versed in Islamic texts.

I agree with you, to a point, about the Holocaust - but only to a point. I think the Holocaust denial is manifest stupidity, but it should be allowed to be said, and debated, even if completely stupid. I like the US free speech model, true free speech - not - only the free speech we like which is more European.

In terms of Islam however, it gets a free pass in the name of religion to continually target Jews - the sons of apes and pigs, and even the stones will say there is a jew hiding here..? Sound familiar? The Zionists control the media etc - and Israeli troops are here and there. The Arab and Islamic press is full of hatred against Jews. That really needs to be cleaned up properly before there Arab and other Islamic world has any credibility in the context of 'anti-racism' or human rights.

Free speech - means all speech. Even these guys.

There wont ever be peace for all and respect for all - because mainstream Islam is intolerant, and has no respect for other religions, or non-theocratic laws. There is a religious imperative upon the faithful to fight the unbelievers to install sharia law, the only true law, God's law. Many muslims might like to sit in a cafe rather than have a jihad. Some dont care.

But some sure do - and unless Islam is reformed so this is not part of its doctrine, there will always be fighting against the West by the tiny minority of misunderstander extremists...
Black Mamba meet Calanen. he thinks all the evil existing on this world is attributable to the moslems.
(It is only some of it actually, if you would ask me.)

IDF_TANKER

10-09-2008, 06:55 PM

Jesus was Black.

Jesus looked like me. Exactly like me.

P.S. I'm not black.

Carib

10-09-2008, 06:56 PM

ROFL, do some research first as they're coming to europe and getting pissed because we don't adopt their way of life.

If that's true, then why do you support their current world views, and that we should acquiesce to it?

Then why were you justifying it earlier in this thread, let alone this post?

Too bad you can't admit you're wrong.

Zoomie i may be wrong in some aspects but you are putting words in my mouth.

Mr.K

10-09-2008, 06:57 PM

It's always fun and exciting to poke a rabid dog.

Carib

10-09-2008, 06:59 PM

ROFL, do some research first as they're coming to europe and getting pissed because we don't adopt their way of life.

If that's true, then why do you support their current world views, and that we should acquiesce to it?

Then why were you justifying it earlier in this thread, let alone this post?

Too bad you can't admit you're wrong.

We r talking about how this all started. Sure now they are trying to impose their way of life on the West, but who initially started this all hmmm.

I don't support their views, I just see where it comes from. Putting words in my mouth, do it again!

DS73

10-09-2008, 07:00 PM

"If you believe that a joke "provokes" such a offense, then I can only wish you a good night. I hope you realise what kind of ill logic that is."

Points noted and taken. Be that as it may the unerlying issue is not this joke, the base root of this problem was the meddling of the west into the affairs of the Muslim world from day one. Period. True they probably need to change their worldview and advance their society. Not everyone wants to change and become democratic though; and the only reason we actually give a damn about these people is to exploit a highly coveted stragetic goal of making sure their markets are open to our desires (oil, trade, pipelines, shipping lanes, etc.)

I know that terror cannot be and is not justified. But if you really break it down, the hate comes from us being somewhere we are not wanted. You think joking about this is going to get us anywhere. It's a waste of our time and resources.

No matter what I say or how I say it I will get shot down, so I'm done.
Bold stuff is not true. "West" meddled everywhere, nevertheless you don't see Buddhist terrorism in the western countries.
One of the problems was the using of islamists by some western and ME political circles.

Th real problem is the idea itself that the muslims have right to enforce "the respect" for their religion all over the world.

Why anybody should give a sh*t about Mu-d etc., or even more to "respect" it? It is personal "believe" crap, and as such should remain personal. You believe in it, take it seriously? Great, fine for you, your possible colleagues believe something very different. The only way for cooperation or common work is to keep this "believes" sh*t personal and close. Waive it high, be ready for ridiculing, just like american "democracy" sh*t, or russian communism hipocracy. Be ready for confrontation, and please don't make mistake--- all those "western" politicians play with PC hypocracy while it suits them fine. On a moment when sh*t hits the fun, and voters turned far right (some if not many of these politicians do play for that) words and rhetoric will be very very different. I would not want to be a muslim then.

As about "respect" and such: for me this 4p.m. hour break is inconceivable already, people don't work after it. Why to keep and pay such people?

4X4Driver

10-09-2008, 07:02 PM

Jesus was Black.

Referring to Hendrix??:)

Laworkerbee

10-09-2008, 07:02 PM

Jesus looked like me. Exactly like me.

P.S. I'm not black.

No but you were a beautiful girl as a child.

Referring to Hendrix??:)

No Hendrix is a God, not a prophet :p

4X4Driver

10-09-2008, 07:07 PM

No but you were a beautiful girl as a child.

No Hendrix is a God, not a prophet :p

Damn right! Thanks for reminding me of that :hug:

Hollis

10-09-2008, 07:11 PM

Jesus looked like me. Exactly like me.

P.S. I'm not black.

Another one, suffering from the messiah complex. When will it ever end? p-)

toki

10-09-2008, 07:12 PM

German government better not pvssy out and ban this contest.

As if the German government had anything to do with it. The book fair is the institution i would think of. Local politicians could maybe file a complaint on whatever basis (security issues etc) if they want, but everything is bound to the law and has to follow a legal process. Ever heard of the division of executive, legislative and judicative?? No official side can ban anything that isn't againts any law. Private organizers can of course stop it - the fair itself.

Btw, i'm not even sure if this contest is really planned or if it's just the editors having a laugh 'Titanic style'.

Laworkerbee

10-09-2008, 07:17 PM

Another one, suffering from the messiah complex. When will it ever end? p-)

BAHAHAHAAHAH! rofl

gtnskymtyyp

10-09-2008, 07:19 PM

Jesus was Black.

There is no need to split the hair. Jesus was an Arab.

The Dane

10-09-2008, 07:20 PM

This guy could go for both Muhammed, Jesus and Santa Claus...
http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t340/heinedenmark/4-7.jpg

Eoin666

10-09-2008, 07:45 PM

This guy could go for both Muhammed, Jesus and Santa Claus...
http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t340/heinedenmark/4-7.jpg

hmmm, looks more like a gay Gimli to me, Lord of the Ring....maybe

Laworkerbee

10-09-2008, 07:57 PM

There is no need to split the hair. Jesus was an Arab.

Jesus was a black Jew with an afro and a high jump you infidel

gtnskymtyyp

10-09-2008, 08:04 PM

Jesus was a black Jew with an afro and a high jump you infidel

Judaism is not a race, but Israeli is. Ethnic Israelis are Semitic which means Arabic, and Jesus was an ethnic Israeli which means he was an Arab

Laworkerbee

10-09-2008, 08:06 PM

Judaism is not a race, but Israeli is. Ethnic Israelis are Semitic which means Arabic, and Jesus was an ethnic Israeli which means he was an Arab

What race are you?

gtnskymtyyp

10-09-2008, 08:07 PM

What race are you?

why? I mean what is its relevence?

Laworkerbee

10-09-2008, 08:09 PM

why? I mean what is its relevence?

Because I'm a racist damn it and want to insult you, now what bloody race are you?

gtnskymtyyp

10-09-2008, 08:12 PM

Because I'm a racist damn it and want to insult you, now what bloody race are you?

roflkeep guessing, cause I will not tell you as it has no relevance to the issue. also what is so wrong about Jesus` being an Arab?rofl

LaoSexMachine

10-09-2008, 08:14 PM

There is no need to split the hair. Jesus was an Arab.

Jesus was Jim Cavezeil.

Laworkerbee

10-09-2008, 08:16 PM

Jesus was Jim Cavezeil.

Shut up you damned Laotian, I'm trying to racially insult this guy.

IDF_TANKER

10-09-2008, 08:20 PM

No but you were a beautiful girl as a child.

Hey, keep your hands out of your pants when staring at that picture. And please keep in mind that that little girls doesn't exist anymore, ok??

LaoSexMachine

10-09-2008, 08:23 PM

Shut up you damned Laotian, I'm trying to racially insult this guy.

Why did you edit your post and add "tian"? Where is this ocean you speak of?

dredger14

10-09-2008, 08:33 PM

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc258/RsShogun/motivator8202355.jpg

None of them are muslims--they hindus from India.

Laworkerbee

10-09-2008, 08:34 PM

Why did you edit your post and add "tian"? Where is this ocean you speak of?

Never disrespect a Laotian by spelling Laotian as Laotion, one could get hurt that way http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9498/nodbr2.gif

Hey, keep your hands out of your pants when staring at that picture. And please keep in mind that that little girls doesn't exist anymore, ok??

You're not the boss of me.

LaoSexMachine

10-09-2008, 08:37 PM

None of them are muslims--they hindus from India.

How you figure?

Never disrespect a Laotian by spelling Laotian as Laotion, one could get hurt that way http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/9498/nodbr2.gif

When I go visit my little sis in LA we are going to have great ToF time.

black mamba

10-09-2008, 09:07 PM

@ Thor

ofcourse jews arent going around burning embassies. have u seen the difference in education level between the two communities? it matters!

but i still think that despite the tragedy of the incident, jews do tend to clamp down on any dissent about the whole incident. freedom of speech ought to work both ways. more than 50 million people died in world war 2. roughly 10 million died in concentration camps. nobody even remembers the 4-5 million gypsies, communists, christians who died there.

@ Calenan

"AQ is pretty versed in Islamic texts."

i dont think they are. if they were, they would have actually read the verses in the Quran which state that no old man, woman, child, prisoner, enemy desertee ought to be killed and so on and so forth or which state that there is no compulsion in religion.

also, as for the hadiths, there are so many disputed ones that one really cant tell. but the fact remains that without proper study of the religion and an education to temper the mind, a lot of the hadiths can be manipulated to suit people's own means. that's why there are so many fake ones. they were written down 80-100+ years after the Prophet's death.

as for muslims vs jews, everybody's disliked, persecuted and massacred them through out their history even though they were God's favourite people according to the Quran. hatred of the jews is not a 'muslim-only' phenomenon. and as for the muslim vs jews rivalry, its become MORE highlighted and ****ounced in the 20th century. before that, it was mostly christians all the way who hated the jews.

if you look into all three of the abrahamic religions, judaism and islam have the most in common with each other today. its kinda like sunnis and shiites. they are 95% alike, and yet, they hate each other. jews and muslims have the most in common and yet, currently, they hate each other.

Calanen

10-09-2008, 09:24 PM

@ Calenan

"AQ is pretty versed in Islamic texts."

i dont think they are. if they were, they would have actually read the verses in the Quran which state that no old man, woman, child, prisoner, enemy desertee ought to be killed and so on and so forth or which state that there is no compulsion in religion.

I'll deal with the no compulsion in religion part second. The first AQ does take a pass on, killing prisoners. You are supposed to be able to get the chance to convert before they do so - although - there are many Islamic historical examples of killing captives which they seek to emulate, and they can always say, their captives were not sincere....

also, as for the hadiths, there are so many disputed ones that one really cant tell. but the fact remains that without proper study of the religion and an education to temper the mind, a lot of the hadiths can be manipulated to suit people's own means. that's why there are so many fake ones. they were written down 80-100+ years after the Prophet's death.

You know that there are reliable hadiths. And that they are taken as the truth. And a lot of inconvenient truths there are too. But this is more deflection - oh its all open to interpretation, no one really knows what it means - well some people think they do, and that is unfortunate when people die as a result of their interpretations.

And what is more telling is when people say to me, my understanding of Islam is wrong because I am a mere foolish westerner - coincidentially, I find that the same foolish misunderstandings are taught to Islamic westerners in Saudi textbooks, Egyptian textbooks - and many other countries. Why would the Islamic world teach their kids the wrong interpretations of Islam? There was a thread on it where I had pages and pages of examples. I raised this with a muslim and I know - and he said it was because the Jews had falsified the Saudi textbooks. Problem solved.

as for muslims vs jews, everybody's disliked, persecuted and massacred them through out their history even though they were God's favourite people according to the Quran. hatred of the jews is not a 'muslim-only' phenomenon. and as for the muslim vs jews rivalry, its become MORE highlighted and ****ounced in the 20th century. before that, it was mostly christians all the way who hated the jews.

But who is persecuted today and openly so? Where is the impetus for reform? We have the President of Iran making nazi like statements about jews, and he gets a pass? Could you imagine the same statements being made by any Western president about Muslims?

if you look into all three of the abrahamic religions, judaism and islam have the most in common with each other today. its kinda like sunnis and shiites. they are 95% alike, and yet, they hate each other. jews and muslims have the most in common and yet, currently, they hate each other.

There is not a lot in common between them except they believe in the same God. The main difference between Christianity, Islam and Judaism is that Islam glorifies and demands the fighting against people of other religions. huge sections of Islamic hadith and the Koran are devoted to warfare - and people follow that path to warfare, considering it their right and duty to slay the unbelievers wherever they find them. Unless that is confronted and dealt with, there will always be problems. How can it be otherwise?

As to no compuslion in religion:

I'm not sure whether you truly believe this, or whether it is an al taqiyaa standpoint. I'll keep an open mind and say that this is what you truly believe, but I think you are mistaken.

The Koran does say, 'There is no compulsion in religion.' But it also says a lot of other things which contradict this, the many sword verses. In Islam, unlike in other religions there is the doctrine of 'al-nasikh we al-mansukh', which is the doctrine of abrogation. The later verses of the Koran, overwrite those to the extent to which they are inconsistent.

In many Islamic states - there is the penalty of death for changing from being a muslim to any other religion. Also, living as a dhimmi under Islamic rule is a firm requirement of the koran and the hadith. Is this rejected now? Are foreigners in Saudi arabia, really living as dhimmis?

The peaceful and tolerant verses, as it happen - come earlier, the jihad and warfare ones - come later. So AQ and people like them have a defensible basis for claiming, the sword verses prevail. To give some examples:

Surah 9:29 abrogating Surah 2:109
Surah 2:185 abrogating Surah 2:184
Surah 9:36 abrogating Surah 2:217 and Surah 45:14

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Farooq_Ibrahim/abrogation.htm

henzai

10-09-2008, 10:57 PM

ok
a bit OOT

how can:
Surah 9:29 abrogating Surah 2:109

u must read the "story" when the surah spoken.....
how can muslim at that early time fight the non-muslim, while most of them seek protection to christian king.....

Surah 2:185 abrogating Surah 2:184

its all bout fasting in
2 diferent case, sunnah fast n fast in ramadhan.....

Surah 9:36 abrogating Surah 2:217 and Surah 45:14

i dont get this,
someone wage war on u, n u must sez i forgive u come n get me.......

n please
those hadist.....
only terorist use them, n many of them dun have correlation with the quran itself....

there should be 15000+++ hadist.... u can choose which one u desired most to justify ur act....n make them as ur version of islamic law...something like those who made these kind of hadist as a state law to justify their act of butching prophet family........

n for the jews.....
well ur islamic neighbour bought aircraft from them, n its was okay...right??

SBL

10-09-2008, 10:59 PM

PeterRJG

10-09-2008, 11:08 PM

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

I understood it fairly well, then again I do broken English.

SBL

10-09-2008, 11:13 PM

I understood it fairly well, then again I do broken English.

Yeah, upon closer inspection I suppose you can kinda make out what he's trying to say.

Still, I'm not one to pass up an opportunity to be a jerk. Especially if the other guy doesn't have the capacity to defend himself.

pvt ramirez

10-09-2008, 11:21 PM

Yes. F*ck 'em if they can't take a joke.
as an american muslim and american soldier i find this to be an outrage the only thing this will cause is hatred and terrorist threats im a moderate muslim but religon is something you dont joke about .this isnt a joke islam is a way of life for muslim and for then to joke about it it really offends me

Heinemann

10-09-2008, 11:21 PM

"u must read the "story" when the surah spoken.....
how can muslim at that early time fight the non-muslim, while most of them seek protection to christian king....."Its called hypocrisy, Muhammad later sent a letter to this Ethiopian king telling him if he does not convert to Islam he will not be safe.

"i dont get this,
someone wage war on u, n u must sez i forgive u come n get me......."
Ah the poor Muslim victims... Muslims believe that if someone does not accept Allahs word he is against him, thus fair game.

"n please
those hadist.....
only terorist use them, n many of them dun have correlation with the quran itself...."They are considered authentic by Sunni scholar yet you disagree? What qualifies you to discredit these hadiths?

"there should be 15000+++ hadist.... u can choose which one u desired most to justify ur act....n make them as ur version of islamic law...something like those who made these kind of hadist as a state law to justify their act of butching prophet family........"Face it Muslims are ashamed of the saying and teachings of Muhammad... I dont blame them.

pvt ramirez

10-09-2008, 11:31 PM

Its called hypocrisy, Muhammad later sent a letter to this Ethiopian king telling him if he does not convert to Islam he will not be safe.

Ah the poor Muslim victims... Muslims believe that if someone does not accept Allahs word he is against him, thus fair game.

They are considered authentic by Sunni scholar yet you disagree? What qualifies you to discredit these hadiths?

Face it Muslims are ashamed of the saying and teachings of Muhammad... I dont blame them.
i dont think that if one does not accept ALLAH (swt) he is against him in islam we are tought to respect all religons and im not ashamed of nothing islam is my way of life i belive in ALLAH (SWT) I used to be roman cothilc ive seen both sides of this story im glad i converted o islam

seraosha

10-09-2008, 11:51 PM

Laworkerbee

10-10-2008, 12:24 AM

Calanen

10-10-2008, 01:00 AM

i dont think that if one does not accept ALLAH (swt) he is against him in islam we are tought to respect all religons and im not ashamed of nothing islam is my way of life i belive in ALLAH (SWT) I used to be roman cothilc ive seen both sides of this story im glad i converted o islam

You can have any way of life you want. I've said before, I dont care what people believe, if allah is the prophet - if you are the prophet to paraphrase John Saffron.

The difficulty that Islam poses is - it is not just a religion - it is a political and legal system. Legal systems, the common law, the Napoleonic Code, UCMJ, are all open, accountable and can be cricisied. Sharia - also a legal system, because it is part of a religious doctrine, can never be criticised or challenged or reformed, because that is religious hatred.

Sharia is also a political system - where the Koran is the Supreme law of the government. Unlike democracy of whatever persuasian, it also cannot be criticised - because that would be religious hatred.

So unlike other political and legal institutions, Islam is able to wade into the control of governments and the courts, and not be open or accountable in any way whatsoever. The human rights of many are violated as a matter of course because of sharia and Islamic governments. But to notice this - means you are a nazi. So what impetus is there to reform? None. Cant even discuss the problem.

Whatever your beliefs are is a personal matter. But you cannot in a democratic society use your religious belief as a shield to make yourself immune from all criticism and accountability.

henzai

10-10-2008, 02:25 AM

Its called hypocrisy, Muhammad later sent a letter to this Ethiopian king telling him if he does not convert to Islam he will not be safe.

really???
so why
mohammad pray when the ethiopian king past away....????

Ah the poor Muslim victims... Muslims believe that if someone does not accept Allahs word he is against him, thus fair game.

OOO im against u...:D
some of my family, 2 of them, converted to cahtolic, n we have nothing against it....we still a big warm family.....

They are considered authentic by Sunni scholar yet you disagree? What qualifies you to discredit these hadiths?

authentic, so why at the endof his life, the bukhari himself said something like, "if these not from the quran, then its not", he wasnt certain about the hadist he authenticated.....
remember from 15000++ he cut down to 2000++ based on research, n at the end he was still researching whether the hadist is authentic or not....

n even bukhari as teacher and muslim as student, have different prespective among others......so they make their own hadist bukhari version n muslim version...etc

and for the scholar today, u cant use only sunnis prespective
the wahabi have their own hadist so that they can preserve the monarch,
aswell as the shia etc...
n those extrimist to they did authenicate their own hadist.....
n those noob terorist like these kind of thing....
so if u guys like these aswell, then u r one of them........with different skin....

so im not saying 100% hadist r fake, but if those words never mentioned in the holy book then its must be a fake....as simple as that....

Face it Muslims are ashamed of the saying and teachings of Muhammad... I dont blame them

lol
suit urself.....
while we use that teaching, if that teaching mentioned in the quran, like how to pray n whudu....

henzai

10-10-2008, 02:35 AM

@calanen

sharia can be reformed.....
u must read about islam in the khulafaur rasyidin period, n after it....
they always change the sharia so that it will suit them....
like in saudi arabia today, the sharia is a monarch law to defend the monarchy.....
while during the khulafaur rasyidin period it was democratic.....????

derkrieger

10-10-2008, 03:56 AM

Heinemann

10-10-2008, 04:05 AM

so why
mohammad pray when the ethiopian king past away....????The Prophet of Allah (peace be upon him) wrote to Chosroes (King of Persia), Caesar (Emperor of Rome), Negus (King of Abyssinia) and every (other) despot inviting them to Allah, the Exalted. And this Negus was not the one for whom the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) had said the funeral prayers." (Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4382)

This letter is sent from Muhammad, the Prophet to Negus Al-Ashama, the king of Abyssinia (Ethiopia):

Peace be upon him who follows true guidance and believes in Allâh and His Messenger. I bear witness that there is no god but Allâh Alone with no associate, He has taken neither a wife nor a son, and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger. I call you unto the fold of Islam; if you embrace Islam, you will find safety "

authentic, so why at the endof his life, the bukhari himself said something like, "if these not from the quran, then its not", Then you have to accept Islam is a failed religoin because Allah commands Muslims in surah 3 aya 31 to follow the sunnah of Muhammad. Without the sayings and teachings of Muhammad that are found in Sahih Bukhari and Muslims, Muhammadians would not know how to perform Hajj, understand the 5 pillars or how to live an observant Muslim lifestyle. Unfortuantly the Qu'an is incoherent and has more personalities than a schizophreniac.

and for the scholar today, u cant use only sunnis prespective
the wahabi have their own hadist so that they can preserve the monarch,
aswell as the shia etc...
n those extrimist to they did authenicate their own hadist.....
n those noob terorist like these kind of thing....
so if u guys like these aswell, then u r one of them........with different skin....Ah yes ofcourse its an all out brawl between all fractions fighting over whos correct whilst we have you in your high chair correcting them because your obviously Muhammad himself :)

so im not saying 100% hadist r fake, but if those words never mentioned in the holy book then its must be a fakeHow to perform Hajj is not mentioned in the Quran so it has to be fake. Opps!

Holycrusader

10-10-2008, 04:11 AM

henzai why are you trying to tell calanen about Islam? He already has his thought fixed about it and seems like he is not keen on discussing it with a view to reach a better understanding (if/when applicable).
He is just a e-crusader and a religion-troll at best.
Oh I almost forgot, he has way too much time on his hands as a lawyer.
henzai::> WTF is "n" you write all the time. is it "and" bro??

e-Crusader and a religion-troll... I like those epitets. They suit some people very well...

domokun

10-10-2008, 04:26 AM

I approve this islam related cosplay event.

If certain barbarians take this as declaration of war, thats even better. :D

Calanen

10-10-2008, 04:49 AM

henzai why are you trying to tell calanen about Islam? He already has his thought fixed about it and seems like he is not keen on discussing it with a view to reach a better understanding (if/when applicable).
He is just a e-crusader and a religion-troll at best.
Oh I almost forgot, he has way too much time on his hands as a lawyer.
henzai::> WTF is "n" you write all the time. is it "and" bro??

You have never said anything constructive in any of these threads, you just dish out feeble internetz style insults. Its ad hominem attack after ad hominem attack. Never debate on the merits.

Calanen

10-10-2008, 04:52 AM

sharia can be reformed.....

Yes it can be - but who is doing anything about it? Pretty much no one at the moment, and most countries will not let sharia even be debated, saying it is sacrosanct as a religious virtue.

u must read about islam in the khulafaur rasyidin period, n after it....
they always change the sharia so that it will suit them....
like in saudi arabia today, the sharia is a monarch law to defend the monarchy.....

Sharia is not just problematic in Saudi Arabia, but in Yemen, Kuwait, Iran, Pakistan, Hamas controlled Gaza, and now bizarrely even London.

If people cannot critique Sharia at all, or even talk about its problems then it can never be reformed. If it is never reformed, then it stays as it is, with entrenched human rights violations given the force of law.

derkrieger

10-10-2008, 05:12 AM

Wow You of all people show the decency to ask for substantive argumentation from other forum members.
I mean Calanen, come on, you are not worthy of it, at all.

If whatever you say and write shall not be even read in due manner but be used as pretext to post new hate and fear-mongering rubbish, why should one bother?

Not that I did not respond to your posts naively before. Well I did, as a rational human being, believing in the human interaction and that we might learn a lot from these interactions, I remember posting in threads created by you. However it does not take too long to find out what you really want to do.
Otherwise I wish you happiness and peace in your personal life.

Macs.

10-10-2008, 05:55 AM

as an american muslim and american soldier i find this to be an outrage the only thing this will cause is hatred and terrorist threats im a moderate muslim but religon is something you dont joke about .this isnt a joke islam is a way of life for muslim and for then to joke about it it really offends me

Ohh, the holy religion. What makes religion so special that no one is allowed to make jokes about it ?

Wake up, it's 2008. Just because you believe in some old stories and a guy who lives up in the sky that watches everything you do doesn't mean that no one is allowed to talk one bad or questioning word about it.

It's so funny to see how people will laugh about Scientology and the crazy stuff they preach, but yet they still somehow believe in the mystic tales of Islam, Christianity, Judaism or whatever other religion. Did you ever think that it maybe is deemed offensive how in a large part of Muslim countries women get treated ? Ever thought about that ?

If I am wrong with what I am saying, I am asking God/Allah/Whatever it is called that he may strike me with a big ****ing thunder right now.

Breakfast in Vegas

10-10-2008, 05:58 AM

If I am wrong with what I am saying, I am asking God/Allah/Whatever it is called that he may strike me with a big ****ing thunder right now.It was nice knowing you Macs.

The Dane

10-10-2008, 06:12 AM

Publishers ok book on Mohammed's child wife

An American novel about the 6-year-old wife of Mohammed, Aisha, may end up being released in Denmark, after publishing company Random House dropped its plans to print the book.

Danish publishers association Trykkeselskabet has given its blessing to Sherry Jones' novel 'The Jewel of Medina' to be released in Denmark. Random House pulled out of its contract to publish the book after fear of reprisals from Muslims, and Jones' agent is looking for buyers.

The novel was brought into the spotlight in the US after Denise Spellman, a professor of Islamic history at the University of Texas, was quoted in the Wall Street Journal as saying the book was 'much more controversial than the Mohammed drawings from Denmark'. She called any decision to publish the book a 'declaration of war' against Muslims.

But Trykkeselskabet indicated that it felt the book needed to be published.

'Fear or threats should not keep a book from being published,' association spokeswoman Helle Merete Brix told Nyhedsavisen newspaper. 'It would be principally and entirely a renewal of all that Denmark has already been through with the Mohammed cartoon affair.'

The book is a fictitious account of Mohammed's revelations told through Aisha's eyes. Mohammed had 13 wives in all - Aisha being the youngest and, according to many sources, his favourite.

But Spellman called the novel 'soft-core ****ography' and that it 'takes advantage of people's ignorance' of Islam.

Jones' agent, Natasha Kern, wrote to Trykkeselskabet to congratulate them on their decision to approve the book's publication in Denmark.
'When you consider what's happened in your country, I admire your readiness to ensure that freedom of expression is not obstructed.'
The Islamic Faith Society in Copenhagen had, as of Friday morning, not taken an official position on the book's publication.

http://jp.dk/uknews/article1417184.ece

henzai

10-10-2008, 06:51 AM

The Prophet of Allah (peace be upon him) wrote to Chosroes (King of Persia), Caesar (Emperor of Rome), Negus (King of Abyssinia) and every (other) despot inviting them to Allah, the Exalted. And this Negus was not the one for whom the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) had said the funeral prayers." (Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4382)

This letter is sent from Muhammad, the Prophet to Negus Al-Ashama, the king of Abyssinia (Ethiopia):

Peace be upon him who follows true guidance and believes in Allâh and His Messenger. I bear witness that there is no god but Allâh Alone with no associate, He has taken neither a wife nor a son, and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger. I call you unto the fold of Islam; if you embrace Islam, you will find safety "

Then you have to accept Islam is a failed religoin because Allah commands Muslims in surah 3 aya 31 to follow the sunnah of Muhammad. Without the sayings and teachings of Muhammad that are found in Sahih Bukhari and Muslims, Muhammadians would not know how to perform Hajj, understand the 5 pillars or how to live an observant Muslim lifestyle. Unfortuantly the Qu'an is incoherent and has more personalities than a schizophreniac.

Ah yes ofcourse its an all out brawl between all fractions fighting over whos correct whilst we have you in your high chair correcting them because your obviously Muhammad himself :)

How to perform Hajj is not mentioned in the Quran so it has to be fake. Opps!

about that letter, its a plain introduction..n recommendation...if u embrace islam u will find salvation...not a war threat....lol
and by the end the prophet himself did a funeral prayer for this king.....no war...ok

n

hadist is based on the quran, so there should some relation between quran n the hadists.....
for the 5 pillars, it was the core of the quran
all Shahada,Salah,Zakah,Sawm,Hajj its all inside the quran...
so the hadist about how we doing these, the practical, shouldnt be fake......
as simple as that....

marius

10-10-2008, 07:14 AM

henzai

10-10-2008, 07:16 AM

Yes it can be - but who is doing anything about it? Pretty much no one at the moment, and most countries will not let sharia even be debated, saying it is sacrosanct as a religious virtue.

Sharia is not just problematic in Saudi Arabia, but in Yemen, Kuwait, Iran, Pakistan, Hamas controlled Gaza, and now bizarrely even London.

If people cannot critique Sharia at all, or even talk about its problems then it can never be reformed. If it is never reformed, then it stays as it is, with entrenched human rights violations given the force of law.

i definitely agree with u, except in indonesia, no one at the moment.....after the ottoman collapse no one....
if u see the young educated men are more open within those country.....i believe they gonna reform it someday......
well indonesia is the best example where indonesian-sharia can work together with its conventional law n culture law.........

ok
im done.....for this thread....
my points are clear....

derkrieger

10-10-2008, 10:11 AM

Basically you are agreeing that you are not even trying to contribute constructively.
If your goal is solely to annoy Calanen and not everyone else, maybe the Private Messaging system would be more in line with your views on humanity?
what are you? a mod wannabe?
and NO, I am discussing with him the way he deserves

marius

10-10-2008, 10:26 AM

what are you? a mod wannabe?
and NO, I am discussing with him the way he deserves

keep digging

derkrieger

10-10-2008, 10:46 AM

nice substantial contribution from you.
you want to get personal,
fine,
waiting for your PM. (following your advice)

Fargin

10-10-2008, 11:56 AM

Strangly enough, I've got no problem with a satirical magazine pushing this issue. While I'd were rather repulsed by JP's continuous campaign to target a minority in a campaign disguised as 'testing and protecting freedom of speech'.

Excalibur

10-10-2008, 03:06 PM

i wonder how stupid it takes to be to win such a competition. p-)

Calanen

10-10-2008, 03:27 PM

nice substantial contribution from you.
you want to get personal,
fine,
waiting for your PM. (following your advice)

If it makes you feel better to insult me in every thread, go right ahead. I'm actually a good target for anyone so inclined, because it's water off a duck's back for me - so go your hardest. It may be annoying for some other viewers.

You havent made any inroads on an intellectual level as to anything that has been said, or have even really commented on it. You have just shouted slogans and labels used by the righteous left, because I deserve it apparently. Careful, you might hurt my internetz feelings.

domokun

10-10-2008, 03:33 PM

Calanen he is not leftist as far as I know, but Turkish so he is likely moderate/secular muslim.

DS73

10-10-2008, 03:58 PM

Calanen he is not leftist as far as I know, but Turkish so he is likely moderate/secular muslim.

The majority of turks are not "moderate/secular" muslims. The first generation of turks immigrated to Germany were "secular", it is long in the past.
Check out who won elections and check out who is supported by german politicians in Turkey.

DS73

10-10-2008, 04:01 PM

@calanen

sharia can be reformed.....

Why it isn't? People from Indonesia to UK ask for the same set of laws, how come?

Calanen

10-10-2008, 05:05 PM

Calanen he is not leftist as far as I know, but Turkish so he is likely moderate/secular muslim.

The slogans are interchangeable now - between the righteous left and the supporters of Islam. What always amuses me is the use of the term 'Islamophobia'. Homophobia was a made up word used to great effect by the Gay Lobby to increase support for gays and reduce intolerance, it was a PR effort. Islam has seized onto this idea, and created 'Islamophobia'.

It is somewhat ironic that the main term adopted by the Islamic apologists was an idea hijacked from the Gay Lobby.

derkrieger

10-10-2008, 05:10 PM

It is somewhat ironic that the main term adopted by the Islamic apologists was an idea hijacked from the Gay Lobby.
so what? now have you started demonizing gays? they are usually nice easygoing and peaceful people.
regarding the intellectual stuff, I told you that you never listen to the "other" side.
and Domokun I am a proud leftist, I felt obliged to add :), take care.
EDIT: Regarding the original issue, Moslems should develop a harder skin and get realistic and take everything for what they really are. Titanic is a satire magazine and let people laugh at whta they find funny.
A cartoon here (somewhere on this thread) displayed it all. ****ing wahhabis and selefis were silent as lambs when it is about serious and real problems, like human rights, terrorism, backwardness etc..
but they never receive the penalizing wrath of American Power (cough OILcoughSaudiscough)
Calanen is mistaken, to reiterate, for he always picks the salafi or wahhabistic interpretations of the religion, usually forgetting to see the bigger picture of law-abiding, God-fearing decent moslems who strive to earn a living for themselves and their families. Not a completely different person working his ass of in Sydey or Perth I'd say.

4X4Driver

10-10-2008, 05:15 PM

The majority of turks are not "moderate/secular" muslims. The first generation of turks immigrated to Germany were "secular", it is long in the past.
Check out who won elections and check out who is supported by german politicians in Turkey.

..and 3 so million Turks abroad ( and not all of them religious either) represents the 70 miliion in Turkey?? (let's say 54mil...AKP claims that 16 mil. voted for them)

People in diaspora(abroad) always tend to be more radical than the ones in the native country...in most cases anyways.

You sure don't sound very wise mate. :)

Connaught Ranger

10-10-2008, 05:25 PM

The majority of turks are not "moderate/secular" muslims. The first generation of turks immigrated to Germany were "secular", it is long in the past.
Check out who won elections and check out who is supported by german politicians in Turkey.

What imigration would that be?

You are not by any chance referring to those Turks who came as "Guest"

workers to Germany post WW2 by any chance, if so they were not immigrated

anywhere, as that would imply they moved to live permanently in Germany with the same rights as German citizens.

Connaught Ranger.

Calanen

10-10-2008, 07:14 PM

so what? now have you started demonizing gays? they are usually nice easygoing and peaceful people.
regarding the intellectual stuff, I told you that you never listen to the "other" side.

Me demonizing gays? That's a stretch. The irony, which seems lost on you, is that sharia law requires that gays be executed. That was what my comment was directed to. So it seems to be mildly amusing that suporters of sharia take their playbook from the Gay Lobby.

and Domokun I am a proud leftist, I felt obliged to add :), take care.

There you go. I'm not. You may have guessed that though. Although I have been hard to categorise, as I disagree with other 'rightists' about many things, abortion, drugs, assistance for people, etc. I like to think I decide on the issues myself, rather than pigeonhole myself to always support on particular left or right view.

EDIT: Regarding the original issue, Moslems should develop a harder skin and get realistic and take everything for what they really are. Titanic is a satire magazine and let people laugh at whta they find funny.

This is true. One of my good Turkish friends and I have a good laugh about it all a fair bit. Its fair to say, most Turks are more able to be moderate than a good deal of other Islamic countries and their residents. But even Turkey has its fire breathing radicals.

A cartoon here (somewhere on this thread) displayed it all. ****ing wahhabis and selefis were silent as lambs when it is about serious and real problems, like human rights, terrorism, backwardness etc..
but they never receive the penalizing wrath of American Power (cough OILcoughSaudiscough)

This is true - although they might now. The schizophrenic friendship between the USA and Saudi Arabia is based on petroleum, and more particularly, by US dollar denominated sales of petroleum. If OPEC denominates oil in Euros instead of USDs, that will be the end of their friendship and regrettably, it will be the end of the USA. Least as we know it.

Calanen is mistaken, to reiterate, for he always picks the salafi or wahhabistic interpretations of the religion, usually forgetting to see the bigger picture of law-abiding, God-fearing decent moslems who strive to earn a living for themselves and their families. Not a completely different person working his ass of in Sydey or Perth I'd say.

Where you say my interpretation is wrong, tell me why it is wrong. Provide the 'other' interpretation and reference it to mainstream islamic scholars.

As to islamic people themselves working anywhere, it is not so much about them - and indeed I have never said that it was. It is about the philosophy of Islam, and what certain people are doing as a result of it. I've said many times, some muslims dont know or understand their religion. It is very complex. I had a discussion with a taxi driver whose native language was Urdu - and I quoted many portions of the Koran to him which he said he was not familiar with. He said that he had memorised parts of the Koran, but had learnt it in Arabic, so didnt know what a lot of it meant. I told him to buy one in English and read it.

Some muslims dont know what their religion says, some dont care, some know and think that sitting in cafes would be better than having a jihad. But some know, understand, and are acting.

Heinemann

10-10-2008, 07:51 PM

about that letter, its a plain introduction..n recommendation...if u embrace islam u will find salvation...not a war threat....lol

Incorrect, Muhammad sent this same letter to the kings of Persia and Rome and guess which peacful religion attacked them?

Dont confuse the translation, its clearly saying that if he does not accept Islam he will not be safe.

and by the end the prophet himself did a funeral prayer for this king.....no war...ok

Wrong again

The Prophet of Allah (peace be upon him) wrote to Chosroes (King of Persia), Caesar (Emperor of Rome), Negus (King of Abyssinia) and every (other) despot inviting them to Allah, the Exalted. And this Negus (Ethiopian King) was not the one for whom the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) had said the funeral prayers." (Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4382)

for the 5 pillars, it was the core of the quran
all Shahada,Salah,Zakah,Sawm,Hajj its all inside the quran...

Nope, poor Allah forgot to put the most important aspects of Islam in order, no where will you find allah dictating the 5 pillars in order.

And I challange you to post the aya which clearly explains how a Muslim must perform every aspect of Hajj.

brainplay

10-10-2008, 07:51 PM

For all that is said about racial profiling and America not being sensitive to the needs of Muslims; Europe seems to be doing a good job of making themselves targets of extremist hate. I mean with the cartoons, films, and now something like this it is no wonder terrorists have targeted Europe.

People need to realize that we are at war with terrorists, many of which are Muslim. They way we behave is critical, I mean some sort of respect should be displayed towards this subject. Am I completely wrong about this...

What, insensitivity to religious figures? Can't take a joke because their prophet was at the bottom of a joke?

Buddy Christ says to lighten up! rofl

http://cdn.purevolume.com/cdnImages/resize_590x1500/113592-763-1097891435-buddy_Christ.jpg

Calanen

10-10-2008, 07:55 PM

Buddy Christ says to lighten up!

That's Catholic racial hatred. I think that burning embassies and rioting would be the appropriate response.

crayola

10-10-2008, 07:59 PM

say you keep a rabid dog, sans leash, and you KNOW from empirical evidence that it will bite your and your friends if you kick it in the nutsack

would you kick it in said nutsack?

Macs.

10-10-2008, 08:55 PM

say you keep a rabid dog, sans leash, and you KNOW from empirical evidence that it will bite your and your friends if you kick it in the nutsack

would you kick it in said nutsack?

What a great comparison... :roll:

I guess we should all hide from dog, and let it sleep in our bed because it might bite us. And then we lock us up in the smallest room.

Calanen

10-10-2008, 09:21 PM

say you keep a rabid dog, sans leash, and you KNOW from empirical evidence that it will bite your and your friends if you kick it in the nutsack

would you kick it in said nutsack?

And live my life in fear ruled by whim of the rabid dog? No thanks. All problems must be faced and stared down honestly like men.

Not like a bunch of frightened schoolgirls watching a scary movie, which is our default response at the moment.

henzai

10-10-2008, 10:25 PM

Incorrect, Muhammad sent this same letter to the kings of Persia and Rome and guess which peacful religion attacked them?

Dont confuse the translation, its clearly saying that if he does not accept Islam he will not be safe.

Wrong again

The Prophet of Allah (peace be upon him) wrote to Chosroes (King of Persia), Caesar (Emperor of Rome), Negus (King of Abyssinia) and every (other) despot inviting them to Allah, the Exalted. And this Negus (Ethiopian King) was not the one for whom the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) had said the funeral prayers." (Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4382)

Nope, poor Allah forgot to put the most important aspects of Islam in order, no where will you find allah dictating the 5 pillars in order.

And I challange you to post the aya which clearly explains how a Muslim must perform every aspect of Hajj.

thats why hadist is needed noob head...
hadist about how we perform hajj....n its not fake hadist...
like i said not 100% hadist was fake.....
all hadist which explain the practical of Shahada,Salah,Zakah,Sawm,Hajj
must be followed n not considered as fake....

but

about that shahih muslim, why dont u follow other "shahih", there were many of them, u can pick any that suit u....

this one is from muslim gurus, bukhari

When Negus died, the Prophet said, "Today a pious man has died. So get up and offer the funeral prayer for your brother Ashama
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 217

n
even those king not considered it as war threat, btw
there should be 8 letter with different content, n those kings understand that it was just some sort of introduction letters not a war threat....even there was no war...

so my point
the "true" hadist only related to quran about performing religious rituals, every muslims must obey n followed without any objection....just another religious doctrine...
but
hadists about the politics, history, war etc.....hadist about how human to human relation these hadist are debatable.....
just like those history hadist,e.g funeral prayer of negus, its debatable isnt it......some said ok the othersaid nope.....

so
if u cant accept this
suit ur self dude.......
this is military forum, not islam-non islam religious chit chat.....

timetraveller

10-10-2008, 10:37 PM

It never ceases to amaze me how a topic posted on a forum breed the sort of attitude that would never be shown in real life ...

Maybe i am misreading some of the replies by some ...

Calanen

10-10-2008, 10:53 PM

It never ceases to amaze me how a topic posted on a forum breed the sort of attitude that would never be shown in real life ...

Maybe i am misreading some of the replies by some ...

I'm writing a book about what I think. It doesnt get much more real life in presenting views than that. Im probably only going to publish in the USA however, given that it is the only country that has real free speech laws.

Eztyga

10-10-2008, 10:59 PM

Germans with a sense of humour.....whatever next

Umm, Muslims with a sense of humour...?

filochard

10-10-2008, 11:31 PM

Excellent bravo for the German.

The ultra religious @ss holes have to understand that there is nothing respectable in religion, it's sacred only for those who believe in it.
The bigots will get used to be humbled. Clergy, whatever the religion, need to get humbled, they are way too ****e for arrogance, with there habit of thinking they speak the truth, speak in the name of God Himself and always giving lessons of moral, lying and mind other people's business.
fvck the Iman/Priest/Pastors/Rabby
Go Germany woot

Heinemann

10-11-2008, 12:15 AM

thats why hadist is needed noob head...
hadist about how we perform hajj....
Thanks for proving my point :)

n those kings understand that it was just some sort of introduction letters not a war threat....even there was no war...Hmmm, lets see within 150 years of Muhammads death Persia, Egypt, Spain most of Northen African, Western India and the South East of the Roman empire was under the control of Muslim armies. Thats just a coincidence right?

-Church-

10-11-2008, 12:16 AM

say you keep a rabid dog, sans leash, and you KNOW from empirical evidence that it will bite your and your friends if you kick it in the nutsack

would you kick it in said nutsack?

Nuke the dog.

Eztyga

10-11-2008, 01:32 AM

say you keep a rabid dog, sans leash, and you KNOW from empirical evidence that it will bite your and your friends if you kick it in the nutsack

would you kick it in said nutsack?

Iwould have it neutered...

Ezy

Calanen

10-11-2008, 01:49 AM

The Balkan

10-11-2008, 01:51 AM

And live my life in fear ruled by whim of the rabid dog? No thanks. All problems must be faced and stared down honestly like men.

Not like a bunch of frightened schoolgirls watching a scary movie, which is our default response at the moment.

Agreed. But that solution to the problem still won't be kicking the dog in the nutsack lmao.

The Balkan

10-11-2008, 01:52 AM

Thanks for proving my point :)

Hmmm, lets see within 150 years of Muhammads death Persia, Egypt, Spain most of Northen African, Western India and the South East of the Roman empire was under the control of Muslim armies. Thats just a coincidence right?

But why is it only "bad" when muslims conquered? I mean which empire didn't? That's what made them empires. And say the Ottoman Empire wasn't nearly as brutal overall, as some of the ones before it. It just seems they're automaticlyworsesimply cuz they were muslims.

Heinemann

10-11-2008, 02:43 AM

But why is it only "bad" when muslims conquered? I mean which empire didn't? That's what made them empires. And say the Ottoman Empire wasn't nearly as brutal overall, as some of the ones before it. It just seems they're automaticlyworsesimply cuz they were muslims.

Because it completely conflicts with the view that the early Muslims spread Islam peacefully. I have nothing against a nation using force against other nation if they are attacked but Islam cannot use that defense.

For example the king of Persia wrote this letter to the Leader of the Muslims, Omar Ibn Al Khatab.

To: Omar Ibn Al Khatab, Khalifat of Tazi (Persian term for Arabs)
In the name of Ahura Mazda, creator of Life & Intelligence,

You in your letter wrote that you want to direct us towards your God, Allah O Akbar, without having the true knowledge of who we are & what do we worship! It is amazing that you occupy the position of Khalifat (Ruler) of Arabs, yet your knowledge is the same as a lowly Arab rambler, roaming in deserts of Arabia, & same as a desert tribal man!

"Little Man" ( mardak) you offer me to worship a united & single God without knowing that it has been thousands of years that Persians worship the mono God & they pray to him Five Times a day! In this land of culture & art this has been the normal path of life for years.

When we established the tradition of hospitality & good deeds in the world & we waved the flag of "Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds" in our hands, you & your ancestors were roaming the deserts, eating Lizards for you had nothing else to feed yourselves & burying your innocent daughters alive (an old Arab tradition, cause they preferred male children to female)!

Tazi people have no value for God's creatures! You behead God's children, even the POWs (Prisoners of War), Rape Women, bury your daughters alive, attack the Caravans, mass murder, kidnap people's wives & steal their property! Your hearts are made of stone, we condemn all these Evil which you do. How can you teach us Godly Ways when you commit these action?

You tell me to stop my Fire Worship! Us, Persians see the Love of Creator & power of inventor in the light of Sun & warmth of Fire. Lights & Warmth of the Sun & Fire makes us see the light of truth & warmens our hearts to the creator & to one another. It helps us to be kind to one another, it enlightens us & makes us to keep Mazda's Flame, alive in our hearts. Our lord is Ahura Mazda & it is strange that you people also, just discovered him & named him Allah O Akbar! But we are not the same as you, we are not in the same level as you. We help other human being, we spread love among humanity, we spread Good throughout the Earth, we have been spreading our culture but in respect for other cultures throughout the whole world for thousands of years, yet you in the name of Allah invade other men's land! You mass murder the people, create famine, fear & poverty for others, you create Evil in the name of Allah. who is responsible for all this catastrophe?

Is it Allah who commands you to murder, pillage & to destroy?
Is it you the followers of Allah who do this in his name?
Or Is it both?

You have risen from heat of the deserts & burnt out infertile lands with no resources, you want to teach people the love of God by your military campaigns & the power of your Swords! You are Desert Savages, yet you want to teach Urban people like us who lived in the cities for thousands of years, the love of God! We have thousands of years of culture behind us, a powerful tool indeed! Tell us? With all your military campaigns, barbarianism, murder & pillage in the name of Allah O Akbar, what have you taught to this Muslim Army? What knowledge have you taught the Muslim that you also insist on teaching it to non Muslim? What culture have you learned from your Allah, now that you want to force-teach it to others?

Alas, Oh Alas...... that today our Persian Armies of Ahura have been defeated from your recently Allah Worshiping Armies; Now, our people have to worship the same God, the same Five times a day, but forced by the sword to call him Allah & pray to him in Arabic, cause your Allah only understands Arabic!

I suggest, you & your gang of bandits pack up & move back to your deserts where they are used to live. Take them back where they used to the burning heat of the sun, tribal life, eating Lizards & drinking Camel Milk. I forbid you to let your band of thieves loose in our fertile lands, civilized cities & our glorious nation. Don't turn these "beasts with hearts of stone" loose, to mass murder our people, kidnap our women & children, rape our wives & send our daughters to Mecca as slaves! Don't let them do these crimes in the name of Allah O Akbar, put a stop to your criminal behavior.

Aryans are forgiving, warm, hospitable, & decent people and everywhere they went, they have spread seeds of friendship, love, knowledge & truth; therefore, they shall not punish you & your people for your pirate ways & criminal acts.

I beg you to remain with your Allah O Akbar in your deserts & do not move close to our civilized cities, for your believes are "Much Fearful" & your behavior is "Most Barbaric"!

sign,

Yazdgird III SassanidThe Persians never went to Arabia to take over Mecca and slaughter the Muslims.

domokun

10-11-2008, 02:45 AM

The majority of turks are not "moderate/secular" muslims. The first generation of turks immigrated to Germany were "secular", it is long in the past.

I made my assumption based on what I know about Turks (including Turkish Kurds) here in Finland and cities of Turkey, they are quite secular when compared to other muslims and muslim immigrants.

Personally I'm not afraid of secular muslims, but islamists frankly scare me.

Here in Finland we are in lot better situation than most of western Europe, due to less immigration and better than average integration of immigrants, that due to pretty good social policy. We haven't created immigrant "ghettoes" that are major contribution for problem with radical islamist in most of Europe. Islamists oppose our way of life and values. Their agenda is beheading all who oppose their brand of islam. They accept terrorism as form of promoting their message, I don't. Radicalized islamists should be kicked back to where they came from as they don't like our way of life. Or if they are locals put to jail until cured or dead. Live by local customs and rules or GTFO.

We have religious studies as school subject, different classes for different religions. In case christianity it includes basics on all world religions and their basic belives in addition to christian stuff. All of christian religion teachers have universitity degree and qualifications as teacher. Good example of how islamists behave was on last spring. An female muslim university researcher of middle eastern studies made public demand that same requirement should be made for teachers of islamic faith and that even that should include basics of other religions. Teachers of islamic faith reacted basically in way that is barbarian, STFU bitch and teaching basics of other religions is against basics of islam. To not much of surpise very few of those are qualified to teach anything in Finnish school system due to lack academic degrees and to lack of any education over education principles, but they are accepted due to political correctness. Personally I fell that whole religion stuff should be replaced with basic philosophy and cultural studies that includes basics on all religions.

I'm not anti-muslim, but anti-religion, all of those are dangerous misinformation. Even as we have here national church, I think it's status should be reduced to that of any other association (like sport clubs etc.). I believe in secular society with freedom of religion and freedom from religion in admistration. Religion is personal matter and is no business of government.

Unlike Calanen I'm leftist, but unlike most leftists I'm conservative (in values over jurisdiction and penalties), militarist and disillusioned over coming conflict of cultures. I see our own culture as worth fighting for and oppose acepting these scum who stand for values that oppose ours for sake of political correctness.

crayola

10-11-2008, 03:31 AM

What a great comparison... :roll:

yes, terrorists and extremists are very limited in thought, so it is definitely a great comparison. thanks.

And live my life in fear ruled by whim of the rabid dog? No thanks. All problems must be faced and stared down honestly like men.

Not like a bunch of frightened schoolgirls watching a scary movie, which is our default response at the moment.

why don't you take a hockey stick to a hornet's nest, calanen?\
...perhaps these guys have kind of the right idea:

Nuke the dog.

Iwould have it neutered...

get rid of the problem (peacefully or otherwise) instead if stirring sh1t up, which will raise an even bigger stink

In other words, stop giving the impoverished/illiterate/narrow-minded/disillusioned muslims EVEN more reasons to make life hell for others

innocent aid workers, western soldiers, locals, HAVE died because of people like van gogh, you will no doubt agree

what about western soldiers on the front-line? you honsetly don't think this piece of news made their day in iraq or a-stan any worse than it already is?

Calanen

10-11-2008, 08:03 AM

get rid of the problem (peacefully or otherwise) instead if stirring sh1t up, which will raise an even bigger stink

No, no no. To start with, most people do not believe there is a problem. You have to at least convince a critical mass that there is something up, before you can do anything.

In other words, stop giving the impoverished/illiterate/narrow-minded/disillusioned muslims EVEN more reasons to make life hell for others

Most of the people behind all the jihadi stuff, are very literate, very educated, well funded and extremely well organised. Their beliefs are an article of faith - their religion. It is not because they are stupid or peasants scratching around in the dirt. That is what they believe.

innocent aid workers, western soldiers, locals, HAVE died because of people like van gogh, you will no doubt agree

No - innocent people have died, because Islamic fanatics killed them. Van Gogh died - because an islamic fanatic killed him. The guy made a movie, which showed the truth about many women in Islam. And people need to know the truth. Not hide from it in the hope that we avoid 'offending' people.

what about western soldiers on the front-line? you honsetly don't think this piece of news made their day in iraq or a-stan any worse than it already is?

It wouldnt have made any difference at all.

You don't understand. These people do this because their particular brand of Islam says tht they have to destroy the unbelievers. They dont care what you think or do - no matter how you twist in the breeze - that game plan never changes.