Montenegro in Kosovo recognition

[Nebelwerfer.]

Montenegro in Kosovo recognition


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45094000/jpg/_45094592_kosovo_afp226b.jpg Ethnic Albanians celebrated Kosovo independence in February

Montenegro has formally recognised Kosovo as independent following its secession from Serbia in February.
Montenegro's Foreign Minister Milan Rocen said the move was "unanimously decided" after a parliamentary debate.
Nearly 50 countries, including the US and most of the EU, have recognised Kosovo's independence so far.
Meanwhile, Serbia reinstated its ambassadors to the US and other Western nations that had angered it by recognising Kosovo's independence.
In a statement, the Serb government said the decision was made because of "continued diplomatic activity to preserve Serbia's territorial integrity and sovereignty".

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45094000/gif/_45094574_montenegro_226x170.gif
Serbia recalled many of its ambassadors in February from countries that backed Kosovo's unilateral declaration - a move that Serbia has condemned as illegal. Analysts say that Montenegro's approval - which was strongly opposed by Serbia - is likely to fuel tensions between the two Balkan nations that made up a single state until 2006.
Montenegro emerged as a sovereign state after just over 55% of the population opted for independence in a referendum.
It marked the end of the former Union of Serbia and Montenegro - itself created only three years earlier out of the remnant of the former Yugoslavia.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7662149.stm

According to some news sites, Macedonia or FYROM for some members will do the same in next couple of days...

[Pejon09]

According to some news sites, Macedonia or FYROM for some members will do the same in next couple of days...

Actually tonight, according to Kosovar news agency.

...and a very special thanks to our neighbour, Montenegro.

[The Balkan]

Booya. It was obvious it was coming. Serbia already pulledit's ambassador out.

"Backstabber" comments will be plenty.

[zg18]

Both countries were under horrific pressure by U.S and U.K to recognize Kosovo ,and Macedonia was certainly blackmailed....

[BW2]

Hmmp doesn't mention the montengrin ambassador was also expelled from Serbia.

No need to bring back the backstabbing comments, its been pretty clear since 2006 what montenegro is. Though montengro can kiss free school and health care use in Serbia bye bye.

[jokuvaan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence

Quite a list considering how short while ago they declared independence.

[Pejon09]

Both countries were under horrific pressure by U.S and U.K to recognize Kosovo ,and Macedonia was certainly blackmailed....

They are both soverign state and speak for their own best interest, as did Croatia.

[BW2]

They are both soverign state and speak for their own interest, as did Croatia.

...hememrrrmppp *tries to hold it in*

[The Balkan]

BREAKING : Macedonia Adopts Kosovo Resolution

09 October 2008 Skopje _ Macedonia’s Parliament has adopted a resolution recommending the Government to recognise neighbouring Kosovo’s independence from Serbia.

85 out of 120 legislators voted for and one lawmaker cast their ballot against, while 16 abstained for the resolution that came in an initiative of the three main ethnic Albanian parties in the parliament.

The Government might officially recognise Kosovo in the coming hours, reports from local Alsat M TV said.

The crucial support for the resolution came from the ruling centre-right VMRO DPMNE, while the opposition Social Democrats abstained.

The opposition complained that although the government is the one that decides on recognising states, the parliament session was summoned without the government relaying its stance and its representatives absent during the discussion.

The parliament rejected amendments from the opposition Social Democrat deputies that the resolution should state that Macedonia will recognise Kosovo once the border demarcation is completed and guarantees Kosovo will use Macedonia's constitutional name.

The resolution concludes that “the peace and stability of the Balkans became directly affected by the resolution of Kosovo’s status” and that by recognising it as an independent state Macedonia will reaffirm its European and Euro-Atlantic orientation.

The resolution was put forward by the 26 legislators from the ruling Democratic Union for Integration, DUI and the opposition Democratic Party of Albanians, DPA and New Democracy, ND. Ethnic Albanians consist roughly one quarter of Macedonia’s population.

The resolution was put on an emergency parliament session on late Wednesday after at the United Nations General Assembly Macedonia abstained from voting on Serbia's bid to ask the International Court of Justice's opinion on the legality of Kosovo's independence. Read more: http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/13847/

Serbia on Thursday voiced discontent at the latest developments arguing that possible recognition of Kosovo by Macedonia and Montenegro would worsen political relations in the region.

“It would be pity if that happens, we would be very disappointed,” Serbia’s Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic told the BBC.

The parliament session on Kosovo also marked the DPA’s return to the parliament. The party set this as a sole precondition for its legislators to end the boycott that they started after the June general elections when they claimed the vote was rigged against them.

Despite the constant pressure from the ethnic Albanian parties for the recognition of Kosovo, the government has so far been reluctant in fear of Serbian retaliation.

“Serbia could cancel the recognition of Macedonia under its constitutional name as a retribution for this move,” political analyst Nenad Markovic told Balkan Insight.

However he adds that this would not have any effect on the ongoing UN-sponsored talks between Skopje and Athens.

Macedonia has strong economic ties with both of its neighbours but Markovic does not expect “anything spectacular” on this field.

The latest opinion polls done in September by the Centre for Research and Policy Making showed divisions in Macedonia regarding recognising Kosovo.

While more than 40 percent of those polled said Macedonia should recognise its independence, 43 percent were against. Only about 11 percent were undecided.

[zg18]

They are both soverign state and speak for their own best interest, as did Croatia.

Regarding Montenegro 80% of population is against Kosovo independence and corrupted government wants to raise political tensions to remove public from vital internal problems in Montenegro ,because the opposition is will probably win next elections and regarding the Macedonia ,what can i say ,i will not be 'neutral' polite, you've pretty much showed to Skoplje in 2001 what can happen to their state.Croatian recognition of Kosovo is a stupid decision by our ruling party because we broke International Law which protects territorial integrity that helped us much in 90'ies , and there is possibility of Bosnian Serbs secession or at least unwanted events in BiH that can be against Croatia's national interests and our decision to recognize Kosovo can jeopardize our leverage in BiH , this frequently happens to a countries with bad foreign politics.

[The Balkan]

A bomb went off in Vitez today..

[Pejon09]

Regarding Montenegro 80% of population is against Kosovo independence and corrupted government wants to raise political tensions to remove public from vital internal problems in Montenegro ,because the opposition is will probably win next elections and regarding the Macedonia ,what can i say ,i will not be 'neutral' polite, you've pretty much showed to Skoplje in 2001 what can happen to their state.Croatian recognition of Kosovo is a stupid decision by our ruling party because we broke International Law which protects territorial integrity that helped us much in 90'ies , and there is possibility of Bosnian Serbs secession or at least unwanted events in BiH that can be against Croatia's national interests and our decision to recognize Kosovo can jeopardize our leverage in BiH , this frequently happens to a countries with bad foreign politics.

You have sources stating 80% of Montenegrins dont support Kosovas Independence, not that I dont belive just want to check. Governments decides for their own best national interest, regardless what the ppl will think, I think we can agree on that part. You being anti-Independence is your own opinion and I respect that.


- Thank you FYROM.

[Paya]

Booya.
Any particular reason you're so happy about this, or is it just the usual "Da komsiji crkne krava" bull****?

[zg18]

You have sources stating 80% of Montenegrins dont support Kosovas Independence, not that I dont belive just want to check. Governments decides for their own best national interest, regardless what the ppl will think, I think we can agree on that part. You being anti-Independence is your own opinion and I respect that.

It's 80% more-less ,i'm not anti-independence ,i don't have anything against Kosovo itself but i'm against broking of International Law , and in this case it's broken and my country supported it ,such move could potentially hit us back as bumerang.

[PVJ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence

Quite a list considering how short while ago they declared independence.

Montenegro separated from Serbia and was recognized by the entire world and was a member of the UN within 1 month of separating.


Kosovo is recognized by 50 out of 192 countries, a dozen of which are micro states like Malta, Micronesia, etc. And they declared independence 8 months ago. They arnt a part of any international organization and they arnt even a part of the UN. Even though i dont have to its worth mentioning that the total population of the countries that recognize Kosovo is less than a quarters of the worlds population.

[Paya]

Montenegro separated from Serbia and was recognized by the entire world and was a member of the UN within 1 month of separating.
It didn't separate form Serbia, but from the Union of Serbia and Montenegro, thus dissolving it.

I know you know, just clarifying it for those that might not.

[Mate]

I thought that the adopted UN resolution for legal councelling in ICJ will postpone the recongnitions of Kosovo......Thanks Montenegro and FYROM!!

[Mordoror]

ruling centre-right VMRO DPMNE

as usual stupid move from those ones
should have a least waited for the ICJ conclusion; Would have been more fair. But look like a good timeline for abroad powers who don't like the serbian ICJ presentation
Anyway, Macedonian population was not very found of that idea (i mean slavic macedonians, it is obvious that albanophones are for that recognition)

yes continue to sell the country that's nice .......

[The Balkan]

Any particular reason you're so happy about this, or is it just the usual "Da komsiji crkne krava" bull****?

I support Kosovo, I always have. Plus I see it as one more payback as well. The whole idea of it giving RS more reason to split doesn't concern me at all. They've always blabbed that succession talk, if the're gonna try to do it they're gonna try to do it. Let them. It'll be war, what else is new.

[Paya]

I support Kosovo, I always have. Plus I see it as one more payback as well. The whole idea of it giving RS more reason to split doesn't concern me at all. They've always blabbed that succession talk, if the're gonna try to do it they're gonna try to do it. Let them.
So, it is the cow thing. Could have just said so.


It'll be war, what else is new.
Oh, and I guess you'll be first to the front lines? Follow me comrades, that sort of thing?

[BW2]

They've always blabbed that succession talk, if the're gonna try to do it they're gonna try to do it. Let them. It'll be war, what else is new. Oh and why do you think it would be war? RS could simply put it to a vote and win most obviously and leave, no need to pick up guns and go wild...again. Actually if the Bosnian Muslims did pick a fight I doubt it would hamper RS in the least, if anything it would win them more support.

In any case not the subject, so shut it.

[Pejon09]

It's 80% more-less ,i'm not anti-independence ,i don't have anything against Kosovo itself but i'm against broking of International Law , and in this case it's broken and my country supported it ,such move could potentially hit us back as bumerang.

If it would hit back, I promise you Croatia won't be alone.

[The Balkan]

So, it is the cow thing. Could have just said so.


Oh, and I guess you'll be first to the front lines? Follow me, comrades, that sort of thing?

You make it sound as if I said I want them to cause trouble for us. I don't, I can't stop them either. But if you're asking would me or anyone from my family fight and die for our people and nation? We have, and I/we would, yes. Instantly.

[Kaapeli]

Do Montenegrins (spelling?) have a strong national identity? Or do they identify more as Serbian, Albanian etc.?

[Wrangel]

This has nothing to do with Montenegro but with US,as usual....


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/ap_on_re_eu/eu_montenegro_kosovo_serbia




Montenegro and Serbia comprised a single state until 2006, and Montenegrin officials sided with Serbia throughout the ethnic wars in the Balkans in the 1990s.
Montenegro's Foreign Minister Milan Rocen said that the decision, reached after intense pressure from the United States and some European Union countries, was reached unanimously among government ministers.
He said that Montenegro's decision was reached in coordination with nearby Macedonia, where lawmakers are also discussing whether to recognize Kosovo's split from Serbia. Both countries are trying to one day become members of the European Union and NATO.
"This is not a decision against Serbia, but for our future," Rocen said.




http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/12970/


09 September 2008 Podgorica _ Montenegro’s Prime Minister Milo Djukanovic admits his government is under pressure from western European countries to recognise Kosovo’s independence.
“There are expectations in certain sections of the international community, and those expectations aren’t surprising. If we want to be part of the European and Euro-Atlantic community, then our partners from those communities expect us to follow the main foreign policy paths of that community,” Djukanovic told journalists.


Interesting stuff about Montenegrin prime minister:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_%C4%90ukanovi%C4%87


Throughout this 1991–1997 period, Đukanović governed loyally to Momir Bulatović and Slobodan Milošević. Đukanović’s government sent troops to fight seceding Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence) as he opposed the fallout of Yugoslavia caused by Slovenian independence and rebellions in other areas. Đukanović's cabinet organized the Siege of Dubrovnik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Dubrovnik) in 1991/92, which resulted in the city suffering heavy destructions as Yugoslav forces failed to take it. The area of Konavli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konavli) was raided heavily. After recognizing the eventual loss of Croatia and Bosnia and the general dissolution of SFRY, Montenegro had a referendum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrin_independence_referendum,_1992) on which almost all voters decided to stay in Yugoslavia. Subsequently the Republic of Montenegro created a Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia) with the Republic of Serbia. Milo campaigned heavily for the preservation of a rump Yugoslavia with Serbia. From 1991 until 1997 he aligned himself with Slobodan Milošević's policies.



For years Milo Đukanović has been accused of personal and political ties to wide spread tobacco smuggling in Montenegro throughout the 1990s.
According to a 240-page internal report compiled in 1997 by the Guardia di Finanza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardia_di_Finanza) (Italian Border/Customs Police and Financial Police, is also a Military Police Corp), Montenegro was part of smuggling hierarchy divided among various crime families connected to Sicilian mafia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Mafia#The_Mafia_in_Sicily), Camorra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camorra) and Sacra corona unita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacra_corona_unita) organized crime syndicates. The report claimed that tobacco smuggling in Europe caused an estimated $700 million annually in losses to governments and legitimate merchants.[5] (http://www.publicintegrity.org/report.aspx?aid=354&sid=100)
Various reports implicate Đukanović in doing business with different Mafia bosses like Neapolitan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoli) Camorra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camorra)'s Ciro Mazzarella (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ciro_Mazzarella&action=edit&redlink=1) who was arrested in 1993 in Lugano (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugano).[6] (http://www.publicintegrity.org/report.aspx?aid=354&sid=100)
Since then, other mafia figures like Francesco Prudentino, Gerardo Cuomo, Filippo Messina, etc. connected to the highest echelons of Italian organized crime operated out of Montenegro closely tied to Đukanović's government.


Charming....:)

[The Balkan]

Do Montenegrins (spelling?) have a strong national identity? Or do they identify more as Serbian, Albanian etc.?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Montenegroetno03.png

[BW2]

Do Montenegrins (spelling?) have a strong national identity? Or do they identify more as Serbian, Albanian etc.? Montengrins are Serbia's Moldovan's vs Romania. They considered themselves the "biggest" Serbs throughout history until recently.

[Mate]

Do Montenegrins (spelling?) have a strong national identity? Or do they identify more as Serbian, Albanian etc.?

In the 2003 census (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Montenegro), over 270,000 or 43% of the population of Montenegro identified themselves as ethnic Montenegrins, while around 200,000 or 32% identified themselves as Serbs. The number of "Montenegrins" and "Serbs" fluctuates wildly from census to census, not due to real changes in the populace, but due to changes in how people experience their identity. According to the latest poll from early 2008,[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] 44.8% citizens of Montenegro considersed themselves Montenegrins and 33.6% Serbs. According to the 2002 census (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Serbia), there are around 70,000 ethnic Montenegrins in Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia), accounting for 0.92% of the Republic's population. The number of Montenegrin citizens in Serbia runs to several hundreds of thousands (nearly 300,000 est.), but most of them identify as Serbs. In addition, a significant number of Serbs in Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia-Herzegovina) are of Montenegrin ancestry, but exact numbers are difficult to assess - the inhabitants of Montenegro contributed greatly to the repopulation of a depopulated Serbia after two rebellions against the Ottoman Empire in the early 19th century, with a half of the population of Sumadija and the surroundings being populated by people originally from Montenegro, and several prominent individuals of the Serbian 19th & early 20th century intelligentsia and entrepreneurs being descendents of people originally from Montenegro.
On 19 October (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_19) 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007), a new Constitution was adopted that proclaimed the Montenegrin language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrin_language) official along with Serbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language), and attributed Montenegrin statehood and sovereignty primarily to the Montenegrin People.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrians

[Zombie Squad]

Albanians in the Macedonian government are pushing for a recognition. It would be a stupid thing to recognize Kosovo. Besides Macedonia aren't getting the responses from authorities in Kosovo to recognize the borders between Macedonia and Kosova if they want the Macedonian government to even consider taking any stance. The borders are question as Kosovo wants a bit of Macedonian land to be incorporated into Kosovo. This people are hard to please, they want Macedonia to recognize them but they question the borders. Thankfully they got US support, and Macedonia loses again.

[Wrangel]

Do Montenegrins (spelling?) have a strong national identity? Or do they identify more as Serbian, Albanian etc.?

Since the Serbs were on loosing side in Balkan conflict,and generally labelled as 'evil',significant number of Montenegrins changed their Serbian identity,with regional one.Its like large number of Bavarians suddenly decide not to be Germans anymore.

Interesting finding:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrins


For example, even Slobodan Milošević (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodan_Milo%C5%A1evi%C4%87) was a Serb of Montenegrin descent, the first generation of his family to be born in Serbia. His daughter, Marija Milošević (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Marija_Milo%C5%A1evi%C4%87&action=edit&redlink=1), and his brother, the former ambassador to Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) Borislav Milošević (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Borislav_Milo%C5%A1evi%C4%87&action=edit&redlink=1), declare themselves ethnic Montenegrin. Other prominent Serbs descending from partly or fully from Montenegro include linguist and major reformer of modern Serbian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language) Vuk Karadžić (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuk_Karad%C5%BEi%C4%87), revolutionary leader and founder of the Karađorđević (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara%C4%91or%C4%91evi%C4%87) dynasty Đorđe Petrović (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%90or%C4%91e_Petrovi%C4%87) (most notably Aleksandar Karađorđević (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandar_Kara%C4%91or%C4%91evi%C4%87)), first Serbian modern monarch and founder of the Obrenović (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obrenovi%C4%87) dynasty Miloš Obrenović (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo%C5%A1_Obrenovi%C4%87), notable Balkanologist and geographer Jovan Cvijić (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovan_Cviji%C4%87); Serbian monarchist politician and one time opponent of Milosevic in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia), Vuk Drašković (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuk_Dra%C5%A1kovi%C4%87); the wartime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_war) leader of the Bosnian Serbs Radovan Karadžić (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radovan_Karad%C5%BEi%C4%87),[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrins#cite_note-17) current democratic President of Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Serbia) Boris Tadić (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Tadi%C4%87),[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrins#cite_note-18) assassinated warlord Željko Ražnatović-Arkan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDeljko_Ra%C5%BEnatovi%C4%87) who was only half-montenegrin,[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrins#cite_note-19) famous poet and writer Matija Bećković (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matija_Be%C4%87kovi%C4%87), editor-in-chief of high circulation Večernje novosti daily Manojlo Vukotić (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Manojlo_Vukoti%C4%87&action=edit&redlink=1), former basketball star Žarko Paspalj (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDarko_Paspalj), current BIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bezbednosno_Informativna_Agencija&action=edit&redlink=1) chief Rade Bulatović (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rade_Bulatovi%C4%87&action=edit&redlink=1), Serbian Interior Minister Dragan Jočić (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragan_Jo%C4%8Di%C4%87)[2] (http://www.blic.co.yu/arhiva/2006-05-25/strane/tema.htm), Serbian constitutional court president Slobodan Vučetić (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Slobodan_Vu%C4%8Deti%C4%87&action=edit&redlink=1)[3] (http://www.blic.co.yu/arhiva/2006-05-25/strane/tema.htm), and half-montenegrin actress Milla Jovovich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milla_Jovovich).[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrins#cite_note-20)





Seems that most of Serbian "war criminals" are Montenegrins,or Montenegrins by origin....p-)
But suddenly,Montenegrins have nothing to do with Serbia,although current Serbian president is Montenegrin...
Very logical indeed.



This is interesting too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Montenegro

This is flag,when Montenegro was independent Kingdom,before entering Yugoslavia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Old_Flag_of_Montenegro.png/120px-Old_Flag_of_Montenegro.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Old_Flag_of_Montenegro.png)




This was flag of republic of Montenegro,within Yugoslavia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Flag_of_Montenegro_%281993-2004%29.svg/120px-Flag_of_Montenegro_%281993-2004%29.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Montenegro_%281993-2004%29.svg)

Compare with Serbian flag:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Flag_of_Serbia.svg/158px-Flag_of_Serbia.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Serbia.svg)


Now,compare new Montenegro state flag,from 2004:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Flag_of_Montenegro.svg/210px-Flag_of_Montenegro.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Montenegro.svg)


With Albanian one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Flag_of_Albania.svg/147px-Flag_of_Albania.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Albania.svg)



Funny,that it all happens when Serbia have 'democratic',pro-Western government.

[Pejon09]

Albanians in the Macedonian government are pushing for a recognition. It would be a stupid thing to recognize Kosovo. Besides Macedonia aren't getting the responses from authorities in Kosovo to recognize the borders between Macedonia and Kosova if they want the Macedonian government to even consider taking any stance. The borders are question as Kosovo wants a bit of Macedonian land to be incorporated into Kosovo. This people are hard to please, they want Macedonia to recognize them but they question the borders. Thankfully they got US support, and Macedonia loses again.

Following an agreement between the Serbian and FYROM governments (-02), approximately 400 acres of socially owned and privately held land in the villages of Dobëllde and Mjak within the territory of Kosova were considered the property of FYROM. That border demarcation is technical rather than political issue.

[justasoldier]

- Thank you FYROM.
You picked the wrong word to say thanks to Macedonians.

[Zombie Squad]

Following an agreement between the Serbian and FYROM governments (-02), approximately 400 acres of socially owned and privately held land in the villages of Dobëllde and Mjak within the territory of Kosova were considered the property of FYROM. That border demarcation is technical rather than political issue.



The prime ministers of Macedonia and Kosovo met Friday to discuss the problem of demarcating the border between the two, days before Kosovo is expected to declare independence, the Macedonian government said.
Macedonia's northern border with Kosovo has never been officially delineated since the former Yugoslav republic gained independence in 1991. It says Kosovo is laying claim to some 2,000 hectares (5,000 acres) of its territory.
Kosovo has never recognized a border agreement signed in 2001 between Macedonia and Serbia. Although Kosovo is still officially a province of Serbia, it has been under U.N. administration since 1999, when NATO intervened to halt a crackdown by Serb forces on separatist ethnic Albanians. Pristina claimed Belgrade had no authority to demarcate its border with its southern neighbor.
When Yugoslavia broke apart in the 1990s, the administrative boundaries between republics became recognized as international borders.
Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski met with his Kosovo counterpart, Hashim Thaci, in Skopje for informal discussions on future cooperation and on resolving the border issue, the Macedonian government said in a statement. It did not provide further details, and neither prime minister made comments to the media.

The Macedonian government has been pushing for the border dispute to be resolved before Kosovo's final status is resolved. The province is expected to declare independence Sunday.


http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/02/15/europe/EU-POL-Macedonia-Kosovo.php

[Mate]

You picked the wrong word to say thanks to Macedonians.
[/sarcasm] Shhhhh don`t wake up the greeks!!!! [/sarcasm]

[Wrangel]

You picked the wrong word to say thanks to Macedonians.

Since Macedonians and Albanians were in military conflict,not so long ago...I doubt that Macedonians do this because of sympathies for Kosovar Albanians,and more to do with real Balkan(and Macedonian) overlord-USA and the fact that almost 40% of Macedonia is populated by Albanians.

But Albanians already expressed their gratitude to the alliance that defeated the Serbs,won the war for Albanians and created second Albanian state despite international law and will of Serbia:


https://www.msu.edu/course/pls/461/stein/06kosovo05.jpg


http://www.nato.int/kfor/media/photos/1999/lr/pic00073_lr.jpg



http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cZsga4f006ic/610x.jpg


http://ukalbanians.googlepages.com/kosovar-bushi.jpg/kosovar-bushi-full.jpg



http://www.worldbank.org/html/extdr/kosovo/photos/natothankyou.jpg




Now,thats what I call gratitude....:)

[Arian]

Kosovo is recognized by 50 out of 192 countries, a dozen of which are micro states like Malta, Micronesia, etc. And they declared independence 8 months ago. They arnt a part of any international organization and they arnt even a part of the UN. Even though i dont have to its worth mentioning that the total population of the countries that recognize Kosovo is less than a quarters of the worlds population.

I told you man: YOU WIN!

Yes they also make up 70%+ of the world's GDP.

Oh this was like a one two three punch here. First Portugal, then Monties, then the Macs.

But, neverhtless enjoy your victory party for the ICJ

[Arian]

Since Macedonians and Albanians were in military conflict,not so long ago...I doubt that Macedonians do this because of sympathies for Kosovar Albanians,and more to do with real Balkan(and Macedonian) overlord-USA and the fact that almost 40% of Macedonia is populated by Albanians.

But Albanians already expressed their gratitude to the alliance that defeated the Serbs,won the war for Albanians and created second Albanian state:


Yes very insightful. The pictures help a great deal to demonstrate your point.

What was that point again? Oh yeah, that Montenegro and FYROM recognised Kosovo

[justasoldier]

I doubt that Macedonians do this because of sympathies for Kosovar Albanians,and more to do with real Balkan(and Macedonian) overlord-USA and the fact that almost 40% of Macedonia is populated by Albanians.


Now hold your horses.....40% is too much.Macedonians are not very keen to Serbia too.So it is not about sympathies.It is economy.Kosovo is among the countries were Macedonia is sufficient in economical excange between the two countries.

[Pejon09]

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/02/15/europe/EU-POL-Macedonia-Kosovo.php

If you re-read, "It says Kosovo is laying claim to some 2,000 hectares (5,000 acres) of its territory."

Doesnt necessary mean FYROM's land, as I mention earlier its a technical issue rather then a political one and will be solved very soon.


justasoldier, for me its FYROM.

[justasoldier]

justasoldier, for me its FYROM.

And for me it is a insult.Nice way to start a friendship.I already regret the decision to recognize Kosovo.Anyway im out.

[Wrangel]

Now hold your horses.....40% is too much.

You are right,my mistake....

Here are real numbers:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_the_Republic_of_Macedonia


The Albanian population in the Republic of Macedonia has grown constantly since 1948. According to the official census data (held every 10 years), Albanians made up 19% of the total population in 1953. The population fell to 13% in 1961. It grew again in 1971 to 17%. They made up 19.7% in 1981 and 21% in 1991[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_the_Republic_of_Macedonia#cite_note-Ortakovski-0). At the last census in 2002, the Albanian population was at 25.2%. Ethnologue in 2002 estimated some 500,000 people speaking the Albanian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language) in Republic of Macedonia.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_the_Republic_of_Macedonia#cite_note-ethnologue1-1) In the decade since the Republic declared independence from Yugoslavia, some Albanians have claimed to account for 30% of the population and demanded an appropriate share of power. On the other side, Ethnic Macedonians said Albanians were barely 20%.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_the_Republic_of_Macedonia#cite_note-2). However, the widely accepted number of Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia) is according to the internationally monitored[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_the_Republic_of_Macedonia#cite_note-3) 2002 census. The census data estimated that Albanians account for about a quarter of the total population. In the 2008 Macedonian parliamentary elections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_parliamentary_election,_2008), Albanian political parties received 22.61% of the total vote, receiving 29 of 120 seats.
Kosovo is among the countries were Macedonia is sufficient in economical excange between the two countries.

Kosovo is not a country,but US protectorate...

Besides that,I think that reason is political,and most due to US pressure on Macedonian government.

P.S


Macedonian Albanians 2002:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Albanians_in_macedonia2002_03.png/250px-Albanians_in_macedonia2002_03.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Albanians_in_macedonia2002_03.png)
Albanians in the Republic of Macedonia,1981:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Macedonia_ethnic.png/250px-Macedonia_ethnic.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Macedonia_ethnic.png)


Interesting birthrate....

[justasoldier]

The only concern here in MAcedonia was the border.After both sides finished marking and Kosovo accepted the border line as it is it was a logical step fr the Macedonian gvt to do.So it is not like there was no political will to do so.

[zg18]

Kosovo is among the countries were Macedonia is sufficient in economical excange between the two countries.

And with Serbia also, do the math , 7.5 million developing market or Kosovo economic black hole with 1.5-2 million people, this recognition is definitely not based on economic grounds.

[justasoldier]

Well dude after all i live in Macedonia so i would know better right? :)

[zg18]

Well dude after all i live in Macedonia so i would know better right? :)

Yes i checked the data p-) ,Serbian imports in Macedonia worth 439% million and Macedonian imports to Serbia worth 298$ billion , how much you import to Kosovo?

[GazB]

Two more insignificant states back the western violation of UNSC res 1244.
As long as Russia has a veto it means nothing and 99% of the world could recognise Kosovo as being the biggest lion in the circus.

[Pejon09]

Two more insignificant states back the western violation of UNSC res 1244.
As long as Russia has a veto it means nothing and 99% of the world could recognise Kosovo as being the biggest lion in the circus.

Veto is all Russia can use, nothing els. You are irrilevant for us and has always been so dont flatter yourself.

[Arian]

And what does it mean to us if Russia vetos us? Equally nothing.

I already told you, you won! Why do you keep worrying yourselves then? :)

[Pejon09]

And for me it is a insult.Nice way to start a friendship.I already regret the decision to recognize Kosovo.Anyway im out.

So one person makes you change your view, wow dude.

[Hyde]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reaction_to_the_2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence

Quite a list considering how short while ago they declared independence.

Wanna see the list of a hundred and forty something who have not recognized it? Just scroll down to "Other States"...just in case you confused it and thought that all countries listed under "Who recognized" and "Other states" recognized it...

[BW2]

And what does it mean to us if Russia vetos us? Equally nothing. And what does it mean to us if the Montenegro, FYROM recognize Kosovo? Nothing, we don't trouble ourselves with their insignificant actions.


I already told you, you won! Why do you keep worrying yourselves then? lol and Kosovo is more independent now since Feb 08 right

[BW2]

Veto is all Russia can use, nothing els. You are irrilevant for us and has always been so dont flatter yourself. Saved and cataloged for future use when Russia comes to bail out other nations with its rising global economic position.

[GazB]

Veto is all Russia can use, nothing els.

It is all it needs to uphold international law and UNSC resolutions.


You are irrilevant for us and has always been so dont flatter yourself.

Wow... I am irrelevant. I am not used to being told that because I am from the most powerful country in the world... New Zealand...


And what does it mean to us if Russia vetos us? Equally nothing.

It means the UN as a body will not give in to certain factions trying to bulldoze over UNSC resolutions when it suits them.

[Arian]

Why do you keep arguing? You clearly won! Clearly it doesn't matter what the US or England and certainly not what someone as insignifcant as Montenegro say. This matter is resovled and has always been resolved.

So I don't understand your worries. Its us who should be worried. But I don't understand why we'r not either. Can you explain please?


Saved and cataloged for future use when Russia comes to bail out other nations with its rising global economic position.

With a GDP the size of the Netherlands, and far fewer good reasons to visit, I don't think anyone is lining up to get aid from Russia (aid...from Russia...God I crack myself up!)

[Arian]

It is all it needs to uphold international law

International law...Serbia...Russia. Is anyone else laughing at this discusion? You'r either 14, or really do believe what you say. I can't say which one I'd prefer.

[KET]

International law...Serbia...Russia.
LOL

Thanks to our friends in Montenegro and Macedonia(finally). What matters is that all border countries except Serbia have recognized Kosovo.

PS. Did I hear someone complain about our birthrates?

[BW2]

International law...Serbia...Russia. Is anyone else laughing at this discusion? You'r either 14, or really do believe what you say. I can't say which one I'd prefer. There's probably some other ignorant moron out there to keep you company.


With a GDP the size of the Netherlands, and far fewer good reasons to visit, I don't think anyone is lining up to get aid from Russia (aid...from Russia...God I crack myself up!) Perfect, I'd prefer it if you remained uninformed.

[Wrangel]

PS. Did I hear someone complain about our birthrates?

Oh,no,no...high birthrates are good for Albanians,since they are good for economic exchanges...


http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1074/untitlednjmk5tl.png


http://www.essex.ac.uk/armedcon/story_id/000159.html



For Albanians, It's Come to This: A Son for a TV
http://www.essex.ac.uk/armedcon/images/logo/NYTimes.gif
By Nicholas Wood
13 November 2003
DURRES, Albania, Nov. 11 — Fatmira Bonjaku's husband is in jail, accused by the police of selling their 3-year-old son to an Italian man in return for the television set that six other children watch in the family's dimly lighted room. The police also say her husband had plans to sell their newest born, whom she is breast feeding.
Mrs. Bonjaku, interviewed at her family's two-room shack on the outskirts of this port city, denied that she intended to sell her newborn but admitted trading her son, Orazio, thinking the Italian man "would provide a good life."
Over the past 12 years, since the collapse of Stalinism here, a substantial trade in children has established itself in Albania, Europe's most impoverished and long most isolated country.


Funny enough:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Kosovo


Kosovo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo) (a semi-recognized country), is one of the poorest countries in Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe), with Kosovo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo) having a per capita income estimated at 1500 euro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro) (2006).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Kosovo#cite_note-0) Despite substantial development subsidies Kosovo was the poorest province of the former Yugoslavia.
Luckily for Albanian economy,there is always a surplus of children. woot

[Arian]

Ahh Wrangler, do you REALLY have to be so pathetic, or is your diarrhea involuntary? Blinded by your victory obviously. But there's medicines for that sort of thing.

Either way :), Macedonia's parliament voted 85 pro, 16 abstain, and 1 against (the only Serb in the parliament). The 16 that abstained did so because they demanded Kosovo recognise Macedonia first by its constitutional name. So really it was about 101 for, and 1 against rofl

Maybe, we'll return the favor and recognise Macedonia back ;)

[Pejon09]

Wrangler whats with your obsessesion posting so-called Albanian pics, those are not Albanians but gypsys, should we start posting Serbian gypsys and their living standards?

Go find yourself a hobby and stop wasting time.

[GazB]

With a GDP the size of the Netherlands, and far fewer good reasons to visit, I don't think anyone is lining up to get aid from Russia (aid...from Russia...God I crack myself up!)

Yeah... ask western ally Iceland. It needs a loan at the moment to stabilise itself and no one in the west is willing to help an old ally. They are having to turn to Russia for a loan to keep their economy working.


nd what does it mean to us if the Montenegro, FYROM recognize Kosovo? Nothing, we don't trouble ourselves with their insignificant actions.

Actually it is good to see they show their true colours. At least Serbia can see truly who its real friends are.


So I don't understand your worries. Its us who should be worried. But I don't understand why we'r not either. Can you explain please?

I have no worries. I am not Serbian or Albanian or Russian.

You are not worried because the EU has committed to bailing you out of your situation financially. With the current economic situation I doubt you will get much, but in the long term they have an interest in investing in Kosovo and making it a success. The idea of whether Kosovo is independant or not is irrelevant considering it will become part of the EU anyway. The fact that the EU will allow a basket case like Kosovo enter makes me wonder why they didn't just invite all of the former Yugoslav states into the union as seperate countries. It would have saved a lot of p!ssing around.

BTW You are very strange asking me to explain to you why you are not worried.

But then you are in good company... look at your biggest ally... the US.
Before the Invasion of Iraq the US was saying Iraq was such a threat to the world it would go in and fight them even if it had to go in alone and do it all itself... which apparently it could with one arm tied behind its back. Now it complains that members of NATO are not pulling their weight and providing enough troops in the region and is looking to pull out.

The US is hoping the world will accept Kosovo so it can withdraw its troops and leave the whole mess to the EU, but NATO has to remain because it is still a UN force occupying that part of Serbia and the EU force has no mandate to be there doing stuff.


International law...Serbia...Russia. Is anyone else laughing at this discusion? You'r either 14, or really do believe what you say. I can't say which one I'd prefer.

What is funny is that you point out that Russia is trying to uphold international law, specifically UNSC Resolution 1244, yet you ignore the humour US/UK/EU trying desperately to violate the same resolution. Perhaps if they broke international law less often the west might see the humour more clearly.

[Piggy]

I do not want to lecture to the kosover/albanian colleagues on this forum, but different views should not be responeded by insults. Where is smoke, there is fire to, so many of the views are not just BS. Instead of insults maybe some progress in your newborn country should be presented. Just to remind you, your war was ended with a decission/strike of the West-otherwise I do not know when it would be ended. Now is time to prove yourself! And best of luck, for the people' s sake.

[alvarhanso]

Great mistake! This recognition was a great mistake.
Is it me or is there a possibility for another armed conflict in the near future?

[Pejon09]

I do not want to lecture to the kosover/albanian colleagues on this forum, but different views should not be responeded by insults. Where is smoke, there is fire to, so many of the views are not just BS. Instead of insults maybe some progress in your newborn country should be presented. Just to remind you, your war was ended with a decission/strike of the West-otherwise I do not know when it would be ended. Now is time to prove yourself! And best of luck, for the people' s sake.

Where do u see insults? We are responding as Serbs like to express their own opinions so shall we. I know a while ago on this forum, no Albanians were left so the propaganda used by some ppl had their joy insulting everything wich had the word Albanian on it.

[Piggy]

I wrote, that now is the time to prove yourself. And you are doing just the same as the Serbs did it (your words).
Can't you be better or it is all the same on Balkan?!?

[Sousuke]

I wrote, that now is the time to prove yourself. And you are doing just the same as the Serbs did it (your words).
Can't you be better or it is all the same on Balkan?!?
Dude, dont waste your breath on mindless drones. Arian has been allready suspended, and to clear the records it was me who reported him. Plus i dont see serb members here posting crap in albaninan or kosovo releated topicks, and i dont see them insulting others. But how come i go to any of the Serb releated treads i see some of you guys posting crap? Grow up.

And to get to the topick - so what if they recognised Kosovo? Its not what the ppl want anyway. Their gov must have been under a ton of pressure.

[Stonewall71]

I told you man: YOU WIN!

Yes they also make up 70%+ of the world's GDP.

Oh this was like a one two three punch here. First Portugal, then Monties, then the Macs.

But, neverhtless enjoy your victory party for the ICJ


I feel ashamed:oops:

As Manuel Alegre, a former Portuguese Presidential candidate (for whom I voted in last elections) put it "the Portuguese Government finally cracked under the pressure of the EU, which is acting as a "mere servant of Washington" "

I'm afraid this will jeopardize our relaitons with our neighbour Spain... :(

But this s**T governemnt of ours is a bunch of sold-outs, they would even sell their mother to the higgest bidder

[Killerkai1]

The decision of Montenegro stuns me and at the same time does not. During the Kosovo war the Yugoslav 2nd army was being directed by the Montenegro government not to cooperate with the Serbian security forces in Kosovo, guarding border etc. The decision to recognize Kosovo will come back to haunt the international relations system.

[Ordie]

The decision of Montenegro stuns me and at the same time does not. During the Kosovo war the Yugoslav 2nd army was being directed by the Montenegro government not to cooperate with the Serbian security forces in Kosovo, guarding border etc. The decision to recognize Kosovo will come back to haunt the international relations system.


Macedonia has a substantial Albanian population, the government of the day may benefits from votes. It also has its soverignty issues with Greece over its own name.

Montenegro wants to demonstrate its independence from Serbia by recognizing Kosovo.

So far 50 countries have recognized Kosovo.

[Wrangel]

Montenegro wants to demonstrate its independence from Serbia by recognizing Kosovo.


I doubt that,to repeat:

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/12970/



Montenegro PM Admits Pressure over Kosovo




http://www.balkaninsight.com/apps/resizer.php?img=http%3a%2f%2fbalkaninsight.com%2fcgi-bin%2fget_img%3fNrImage%3d2%26NrArticle%3d12970&w=130&constrain=1
Montenegro's Prime Minister Milo Djukanovic



09 September 2008 Podgorica _ Montenegro’s Prime Minister Milo Djukanovic admits his government is under pressure from western European countries to recognise Kosovo’s independence.
“There are expectations in certain sections of the international community, and those expectations aren’t surprising. If we want to be part of the European and Euro-Atlantic community, then our partners from those communities expect us to follow the main foreign policy paths of that community,” Djukanovic told journalists.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/ap_on_re_eu/eu_montenegro_kosovo_serbia



Montenegro and Macedonia — both seeking membership in NATO and the European Union — have been under pressure from the United States and some EU countries to recognize Kosovo's February declaration of independence.

[limbic]

It is of no real significance that Montenegro or Macedonia recognised Kosovo. Its only thanks to Kosovo and Albania that they are not the bottom of every European social and economic index.

They were essentially forced to do so by severe threats from the EU that failure to recognise Kosovo would mean obstruction of their route into the EU.

Their large and rapidly growing Albanian minorities also played a part.

I suspect these countries may one day rue their decision if (or when?) their own provinces abutting Albania decide that they too want to declare unilateral independence.

Some call it simple diplomacy, other Realpolitik, but I see it as the crudest bullying and bribing.

Many Serbs are sickened by what they consider to be betrayal and selling out, especially by Montenegro. A very large minority of Montenegrins are de facto Serbs. Many Kosovo “Serbs” are of Montenegrin origin.

As someone commented to me last night “Maybe if all the “Serb” IDPs (refugees) from Kosovo went home to Montenegro and Macedonia those countries might lose their zeal for appeasing the EU?”

My sense is that Serbs are losing patience with the EU. The EU’s “Politics of Conditionality” is going too far and the government is weakening. The EU is behaving like a beautiful vamp promising “access” after just one more condition is met. Meanwhile, its clueless suitor Serbia is waking up to the fact that the vamp has a hostile husband - the US - and may never be able deliver what it promises because its own polity is strongly against expansion, especially if we hit a global recession.

I am desperately keen for the EU to start giving Serbia something constructive after 8 years of democracy, liberal reform and seeking peaceful recourse through International Law.

Serbia is behaving like a model democracy and its reward is to be constantly attacked and harried, mostly because of the actions of Bosnian Serbs - well, mostly Montenegrins actually - over a decade ago.

Of much greater consequence if the UN General Assembly vote in Serbia's favour. It was significantly larger than expected.

This legal action sets the scene for Serbia's real endgame - Partition.

If the ICJ rules in Serbia's favour, Serbia will use that as a bargaining chip. Failing that it has the Kosovo Precedent itself to fall back on.

It has created and now maintains parallel institutions in northern Kosovo and off the record UN, EU and diplomatic sources here will tell you that partition is more than possible and in most cases likely.

Another side effect of Montenegro and Macedonia's recognition (given under massive pressure from the EU) is the possible break up of those states in the future.

Now that they have formally endorsed the legitimacy of Kosovo, the only think that standing between their own large Albanian minorities seceding is the goodwill of those minority leaders.

Since February he EU, US and Kosovo government have gone from gleeful gloating and celebration about Kosovo's nationhood to dismayed alarm at its lack of recognition, Serbia's legal attack and the increasing likelihood that a negotiated partition may have to be the end result. I am glad about that.

The cynicism, hypocrisy of the US and EU, and their unashamed bullying of Serbia and its regional allies is a disgrace.

Their cynicism, double standards and hypocrisy are a threat to the very Multilateralism they swear by.

I commend Ian Bancroft's great analysis in today's Guardian for anyone interested in a sober analysis of the vote and its consequences:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/10/eu.serbia

[V.I.D.]

I agree with Limbic's post, but if Kosovo's partition ever becomes legalized (hence independence legalized as well), then RS must secede and/or join Serbia. There is simply no other way around with Serbs constantly being on the receiving end since the breakup of Yugoslavia. Any other solution will mean another war in the future. I am afraid we're already down on that path, but many are incapable of admiting it. Something must be done before its too late.

[The Balkan]

I love how that works. Albanians get the better of Serbia, so Bosnia must pay!!!

[Dukagjin]

serbia should accept the reality , kosovo is a independent state recognised by all the western democratic states .
and please no bullsh*ttin here , republika srpska ( who is bosnian territory) was never a constitutional part of the former yugoslavian state , kosovo was . the albanians in kosovo defend themselves , the serbs inb bosnia commited the worst war crimes since world war II . you cant never compare kosovo with srpska republika ! by the way thank you , makedonia and crna gora
( montenegro)


p.s.: zg you are absolutely pro serb , maybe you have some serbs in your family or so i dont know the reason , you are not objektive in this case . most of the croats support the right for indepence of kosovo and you know that very well !

[V.I.D.]

I love how that works. Albanians get the better of Serbia, so Bosnia must pay!!!

When 2/3 of a country's population don't want to be in it, but rather want to separate, there must something awfully wrong with that situation, wouldn't you agree? Dukagjin, you're a funny guy, I like you (spoken with Joe Pesci's voice).

[Pejon09]

Serbia Expels Macedonia Envoy over Kosovo




http://www.balkaninsight.com/apps/resizer.php?img=http%3a%2f%2fbalkaninsight.com%2fcgi-bin%2fget_img%3fNrImage%3d2%26NrArticle%3d13901&w=130&constrain=1
Serbia Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic (left) and President Boris Tadic (right) - Serbian leaders had warned Macedonia and Montenegro against recognising Kosovo

10 October 2008 Belgrade _ Serbia has declared Macedonia's ambassador to Belgrade a 'persona non grata' and expelled him, a day after Skopje recognised Kosovo, sources from Macedonia’s Foreign Ministry say.
Ambassador Alesandar Vasilevski is expected to leave the country as soon as possible.

In addition, the Serbian ambassador to Skopje handed a protest note requesting Macedonia to reconsider its decision to recognise Kosovo. So far there are no indications that Serbia is planning to withdraw its diplomat form Skopje, the Ministry added.

Last night, Serbia's Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic announced that Belgrade is also expelling Montenegro's ambassador in retaliation to its decision to recognise Kosovo. Read more: http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/13886/.

Jeremic added that Serbia would continue to apply harsh measures.

Aleksandar Konuzin, the Russian ambassador to Serbia, also expressed dismay at Montenegro's decision. He said that Russia will support Serbia and its people.

“Citizens of Serbia, let the results of the political victory increase your belief in the justness of what you are defending and encourage new efforts. There is a lot of work ahead,” Konuzin told the Serbian state run television network.

“I would like to repeat the words of the great Russian writer Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, who said ‘Serbs, do not give up your country.’ Be sure that Russia will remain beside Serbia in the future,” Konuzin said.

Reaction elsewhere in Serbia to Montenegro and Macedonia's decision varied in degree from disappointment to anger.

Serbia’s Kosovo Minister, Goran Bogdanovic, told Serbia’s daily Blic that he was saddened by Montenegro’s decision.

“There are a lot of both Serb and Montenegrin refugees from Kosovo in Montenegro. I live in Kosovo and I know that a majority of people look to Montenegro as a county that would offer help but this is something that was least expected by everyone,” said Bogdanovic.

Serbian Parliament President Slavica Djukic-Dejanovic told Blic that Montenegro’s move is a “stab in the back”.

The recognition came a a day after the United Nations General Assembly approved Serbia's bid to ask the International Court of Justice's opinion on the legality of Kosovo's independence. Read more: http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/13847/

Serbian Interior Minister, Ivica Dacic, told reporters that the relationship between Serbia and Montenegro will be forever changed.

“The decision is not in the interest of Montenegro because Serbian and Montenegrin roots in history, tradition, and literature are tied to Kosovo. The decision comes a day after the UN decision and I can view this move only as an attempt to return the blow by Kosovo lobbyists,” Dacic said.

[Stefan850]

p.s.: zg you are absolutely pro serb , maybe you have some serbs in your family or so i dont know the reason , you are not objektive in this case . most of the croats support the right for indepence of kosovo and you know that very well !

This is funny for so many different reasons. Most of the Croats support Albanian's quest for independent Kosovo because they dont like Serbs because of our history, even more Serbs don't like Croats and would support Croatian enemy, but ZG is obviously not one of them, he supports international law. Albanians dont support international law in this case for obvious reasons, the rest of the western world doesn't support it because of the US. You guys are safe while you have US, NATO to back you up like this. Whatever Serbia does we are not going back to the negotiating table, maybe a partition of the north, US can only stop that with violence and I dont think they could do that right now.

Anyway, my personal opinion, it might be biased is that with such a strong support, and it is incredibly strong, from the US, Kosovo is not doing very well, even with the recognitions, you guys get more humble every day, what was that, 100 of them till September?



And let's not insult each other, really. We can't change nothing, there is no war going on and it wont be for at least 4-5 years so we can talk.

And Pejon09, Arian (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=54457), the banned user, is an insulting, flaming, arrogant poster who didn't join this forum to have discussions, he's post's are constructed that way so he can piss someone off and get a kick out of it.

[Pejon09]

US Hails Recent Kosovo Recognitions





http://www.balkaninsight.com/apps/resizer.php?img=http%3a%2f%2fbalkaninsight.com%2fcgi-bin%2fget_img%3fNrImage%3d2%26NrArticle%3d13897&w=130&constrain=1
US State Department

10 October 2008 Skopje _ The US Department of State on Thursday congratulated the decision by Macedonia and Montenegro to recognise the independence of their neighbour Kosovo.

“The growing number of recognitions is an affirmation of Kosovo’s progress in establishing a stable, multiethnic, democratic society that seeks normal political and trade relations with its neighbours and the greater international community,” the written statement by the Department said.

On Thursday both countries announced that they are ready to establish full diplomatic relations with the new born state, thus becoming the 49th and 50th nations to recognise Kosovo's statehood.

“We continue to support Macedonia, Montenegro and the rest of our partners in southeast Europe in their efforts to promote peace, development, and cooperation in the Balkans,” the statement said, adding that the US looks forward to new recognitions in the months to come.

World media say that the recent recognitions by two of its immediate neighbours represents a significant psychological boost for Kosovo, and could soften the effects of the UN General Assembly's initiative to ask the International Court of Justice's opinion on the legality of the country's independence. Read more: http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/13847/

The former Serbian province of Kosovo declared its independence from Belgrade in February. Recognitions from the US and some EU countries followed soon after but Serbia backed by Russia stands firmly against it.


http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/main/news/13897/

[zg18]

p.s.: zg you are absolutely pro serb , maybe you have some serbs in your family or so i dont know the reason , you are not objektive in this case . most of the croats support the right for indepence of kosovo and you know that very well !

I'm not pro-Serb, i'm pro-Croatian ,most Croatians support Kosovo independence because of recent history , i try to look long future, in 1985 nobody thought that Yugoslavia would break apart but it happened ,in 2008 BiH future is uncertain ,if i need to chose between BiH and Kosovo ,i chose BiH because Croatia and BiH are one geopolitical area , only thing that keeps BiH together is High Representative with it's authorities according the Dayton agreement , you can ask Bosnian Muslims here about behavioure of EU in BiH ,if there weren't the Americans they would let BiH doom ,now we are in process of new World order and i'm sure that Russia will get an opportunity with EU green light to dismantle BiH for it's Serb allies ,now this is against Croatian national interests and how Croatia can support BiH territorial integrity according the International law if we deny that for Serbia?There is no love in politics only interests ,now if that's pro-Serb for you LOL

[alvarhanso]

My sense is that Serbs are losing patience with the EU. The EU’s “Politics of Conditionality” is going too far and the government is weakening. The EU is behaving like a beautiful vamp promising “access” after just one more condition is met. Meanwhile, its clueless suitor Serbia is waking up to the fact that the vamp has a hostile husband - the US - and may never be able deliver what it promises because its own polity is strongly against expansion, especially if we hit a global recession.

I am desperately keen for the EU to start giving Serbia something constructive after 8 years of democracy, liberal reform and seeking peaceful recourse through International Law.


Well, you should get in line than, Macedonia has been nothing but cooperative, has done all the reforms that it should have done, has been very liberal regarding minority rights (unlike some neighboring countries), we have been a peaceful democracy for more then 17 years and still we are told by the EU that we have a long way to go. Is it fair? I don't think so. Is it our fault? Hardly. Does the EU bureaucracy has double standards? Definitely. What should we do? Nothing, we'll sit and wait.

Again, personally (and i'd like to think the majority of the Macedonians) , i'm against this resolution by our governments but what can i do? Vote against this government? Already did.

[Dukagjin]

guys , do you want to know what is funny ?!
its funny when a state like serbia who ( responsible for the wortst war crimes since world war II ) kicked the human and international rights with military boots in the years between 1992-1999 now is calling for international right .
very funny

[boet faas]

I just have 1 question. If the west can decide to

[boet faas]

I have just 1 question. If the West can decide to recognise the independance of Kosovo, why is that Russia cannot recognise the independance of South Osetia and the other break away republic? Who decides who can recognise and who cannot?

[Sousuke]

Its all power play my friend, nothing more.

[limbic]

guys , do you want to know what is funny ?!
its funny when a state like serbia who ( responsible for the wortst war crimes since world war II ) kicked the human and international rights with military boots in the years between 1992-1999 now is calling for international right .
very funny

Nah, what's really funny is when people parade their ignorance on the internet.

Serbia, since becoming a liberal democracy nearly a decade ago has never resorted to violence or intimidation, and its minorities are safe, protected and free.

The same is not true in Kosovo.

During that same period over 100,000 Serbs, Gorani and Roma have been violently ethnically cleansed from Kosovo under its current regime.

KFOR is there not to protect Albanians, but to protect the remaining non-Albanians from extermination.

So what's relevant then? The actions of mostly Bosnian and Montenegrin Serbs in Bosnia 15 years ago or the contemporary crimes against minorities in Kosovo today?

[Wrangel]

I have just 1 question. If the West can decide to recognise the independance of Kosovo, why is that Russia cannot recognise the independance of South Osetia and the other break away republic?

Because Russia is not west...:)

And Serbs are "little Russians" in eyes of the West,no matter what they do.


Who decides who can recognise and who cannot?

From western perspective,obviously the West.

[boet faas]

It cant just be powerplay, surely the West must get a mandate from somewhere to recognise and to appose recognision. If the that mandate comes from the UN then that is highly corrupt. First of all because the UN belongs to the West. They did the same in SA and they did not have the mandate according to international law to intervene. It will never be OK for everybody to just accept the will of the West. They enforce unjust rule over the world and they get their mandate from themselves?

[The Balkan]

I have just 1 question. If the West can decide to recognise the independance of Kosovo, why is that Russia cannot recognise the independance of South Osetia and the other break away republic? Who decides who can recognise and who cannot?

Russia spent alot of time blabbing about how they respect international law, how is anyone going to take them serious if they do the same thing they werejust screaming against? And do it twice in fact. And for much less reason. So yes, the US plays by it's own rules when it wants to, but so does Russia and everyone else. Don't fool yourself into thinking these laws matterto anyone, when their own interests are invovled. Serbia would recognize RS right away if it split away, even wthout Kosovo.

[The Balkan]

Nah, what's really funny is when people parade their ignorance on the internet.

Serbia, since becoming a liberal democracy nearly a decade ago has never resorted to violence or intimidation, and its minorities are safe, protected and free.

The same is not true in Kosovo.

During that same period over 100,000 Serbs, Gorani and Roma have been violently ethnically cleansed from Kosovo under its current regime.

KFOR is there not to protect Albanians, but to protect the remaining non-Albanians from extermination.

So what's relevant then? The actions of mostly Bosnian and Montenegrin Serbs in Bosnia 15 years ago or the contemporary crimes against minorities in Kosovo today?

"Montenegrin Serbs"? Cuz they came as volunteers? Well if that's the case Serbian Serbs did too so they should be on your list.

[Wrangel]

guys , do you want to know what is funny ?!
its funny when a state like serbia who ( responsible for the wortst war crimes since world war II ) kicked the human and international rights with military boots in the years between 1992-1999 now is calling for international right .
very funny

You are confusing state of Serbia,with Bosnian and Croatian Serbs that had their own governments.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/index/bosnia/feb96/nbos165.htm



Yugoslavia, U.N. lift sanctions on Bosnian Serbs

PALE, Bosnia-Herzegovina - The United Nations and Serb-dominated Yugoslavia lifted sanctions against Bosnian Serbs Tuesday as a reward for accepting peace.
The U.N. suspension was announced in New York by the Security Council president, U.S. Ambassador Madeleine Albright. It came after the council received a letter from NATO certifying that the Bosnian Serbs had withdrawn their forces from buffer zones established under the Dayton peace agreement.
The Yugoslav move, announced by the official news agency Tanjug, aimed to ease tensions between the Bosnian Serbs and President Slobodan Milosevic of Serbia, Yugoslavia's most powerful politician.
The sanctions, imposed at Milosevic's behest 18 months ago, marked a formal end to Serb-dominated Yugoslavia's support of the Bosnian Serb war effort. Milosevic turned against the war in an effort to get U.N. sanctions against his own country lifted.
The U.N. sanctions on Yugoslavia were lifted in November, after Milosevic initialed the Bosnian peace plan. But all U.N. members except Russia kept their sanctions on Bosnian Serbs in place. Moscow lifted them last week.






Koljevic has been one of the main Serb contacts for international organizations ordered to shun Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic because he has been indicted on war crimes charges. NATO troops are supposed to arrest him and other indicted suspects if they encounter them.
And Karadzic was born in Montenegro,and lived in Bosnia.Nothing to do with state of Serbia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radovan_Karad%C5%BEi%C4%87


Radovan Karadžić (Serbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language): Радован Караџић, IPA: [râdovaːn kâraʤiʨ] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA)(1945-06-19); born June 19, 1945 (age 63) in Petnjica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petnjica), SR Montenegro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Republic_of_Montenegro), SFR Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia)) is a former Bosnian Serb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Serb) politician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politician), poet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poet) and psychiatrist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychiatry). He is currently in the United Nations Detention Unit of Scheveningen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheveningen) for war crime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime) charges committed against people of Muslim faith, as well as Croats, Bosnians, other non-serbs and non-nationalist Serbs during the siege of Sarajevo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo), and genocide of 8,000 Muslims in Srebrenica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica).
So what this has to do with state of Serbia,when he was Montenegrin?Why not demanding something from Montenegro,when their current prime minister actually participated in this war,and was in command against Croatia?

[Pejon09]

Nah, what's really funny is when people parade their ignorance on the internet.

Serbia, since becoming a liberal democracy nearly a decade ago has never resorted to violence or intimidation, and its minorities are safe, protected and free.

The same is not true in Kosovo.

During that same period over 100,000 Serbs, Gorani and Roma have been violently ethnically cleansed from Kosovo under its current regime.

KFOR is there not to protect Albanians, but to protect the remaining non-Albanians from extermination.

So what's relevant then? The actions of mostly Bosnian and Montenegrin Serbs in Bosnia 15 years ago or the contemporary crimes against minorities in Kosovo today?

Maybe if Serbia had thought of that prior to -99, maybe we wouldnt had this problem today. You cant expect us to simply forgive and forget as nothing took place. What the paramilitary troops did to the civilians, is not human. Great you are taking good care of your minority today, smth wich we NEVER enjoyd. However we have our problems you have yours, but it seems only one have moved forward, you guys are still spending millions on a lost case.

[zg18]

Russia spent alot of time blabbing about how they respect international law, how is anyone going to take them serious if they do the same thing they werejust screaming against? And do it twice in fact. And for much less reason. So yes, the US plays by it's own rules when it wants to, but so does Russia and everyone else. Don't fool yourself into thinking these laws matterto anyone, when their own interests are invovled. Serbia would recognize RS right away if it split away, even wthout Kosovo.


This pretty much sums up my thoughts.

[boet faas]

In that case i believe that Russia should have shown more backbone by enforcing the South Osetia declaration of independance. I know it is easier said than done as Russia's stock exchange took a massive hit as a result. That just tells me that tye West controls the money and wield the power. But hopefully that rant would come to an end with a Dipression 2.0. Once that happens the world economy would belong to the East. And maybe then the West will see if they should have treated their nabours a little better. I want to invitwe you to take part of my new thread called " Americas chickens coming home to roost"., and voice your opinions on this subject.

[Wrangel]

So yes, the US plays by it's own rules when it wants to, but so does Russia and everyone else. Don't fool yourself into thinking these laws matterto anyone, when their own interests are invovled. Serbia would recognize RS right away if it split away, even wthout Kosovo.

But USA first broke agreement that itself forced upon Serbian government:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1244


United Nations Security Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council) Resolution 1244 authorised an international civil and military presence in Kosovo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo), then part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia), placing it under interim UN administration. It was adopted on 10 June (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_10) 1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999). Both sides in the conflict subsequently adopted it in the Kumanovo Treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumanovo_Treaty).






The main effects of Resolution 1244 were to:


Place Kosovo under interim UN administration (currently performed by the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo, UNMIK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNMIK));
Authorize a NATO-led peacekeeping force in Kosovo (currently performed by the Kosovo Force, KFOR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Force));
Allow for the return of an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel to maintain a presence at Serbian Patrimonial sites and key border crossings. (not implemented in practice);
Direct UNMIK to establish provisional institutions of local self-government in Kosovo (currently the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government, PISG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Institutions_of_Self-Government));
Reaffirm the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (i.e., Kosovo remains part of the FRY, to which Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia) is now the recognized successor state) and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2 of UNSCR 1244 (an annex that envisions, inter alia, a Kosovo status process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_status_process));
Require the UN to assure the safe and unimpeded return of all refugees and displaced persons to their homes in Kosovo and to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of the province;
Require that the KLA and other armed Kosovo Albanian groups be demilitarized;
Authorize the UN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN) to facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_status_process), its level and forms of autonomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomy) (began in late 2005 under the auspices of UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martti_Ahtisaari));

After this kind of legal violation,by the West..its kinda hypocritical to blame others for deeds in the future.


This is about Bosnia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayton_Agreement

[The Balkan]

Yes dude, we all know what the Dayton Agreement, the thing that ended the war is. I don't need a lesson in my own recent history.

I'm not blaming anyone. But if you're going to rant about laws at least follow them yourself then maybe your argument won't be so weak. Like If I'm against raping, I usualy don't go around raping.

[Wrangel]

Like If I'm against raping, I usualy don't go around raping.

Do you imply that I do?

[The Balkan]

Do you imply that I do?

Are you Russia?

Did you seriosly not get my point?

[Wrangel]

Are you Russia?

Did you seriosly not get my point?

So Russia is rapist?

[The Balkan]

So Russia is rapist?

:cantbeli:


:slap:

[BW2]

guys , do you want to know what is funny ?!
its funny when a state like serbia who ( responsible for the wortst war crimes since world war II ) kicked the human and international rights with military boots in the years between 1992-1999 now is calling for international right .
very funny Your special...


Maybe if Serbia had thought of that prior to -99 Ignorance is bliss.

[Pejon09]

Your special...

Ignorance is bliss.

Ignorance? I lived there once, what about you? Have you ever been there or did you collect all your information from Serbianna.com one day and become a expertis judging others for ignorance?

...

[Stefan850]

Yes dude, we all know what the Dayton Agreement, the thing that ended the war is. I don't need a lesson in my own recent history.

I'm not blaming anyone. But if you're going to rant about laws at least follow them yourself then maybe your argument won't be so weak. Like If I'm against raping, I usualy don't go around raping.

Everyone not biased see the blame is on the US, I agree 100% with everything you said in your last post but not this one. US did it first, rape is a bad example, that's something purelly evil and twisted, this is more something done for personal gain, like stealing. So, US started to steal and take by force first, Russians are the guys looking from the side and thinking "If he can do it, so can I".

Everyone is hypocrite equally in this, yes, but US started it, and US is the most powerfull and currently unstopable we all know that so there's no point in telling anything to them, laws cant stop the US, Kosovo is an example of that, you just gotta start taking what you can yourself before it's all gone.

So, US should be blamed for destruction of international laws, that's obvious.

[Sousuke]

By what I read here, you are implying, just because, some ppl under a serbian banner commited horrible things, we shold suffer for a whole eternity? Just because we did something, we should be never forigven? Go and F*$# yourself! I wish for a better life, here and everywhere in the world and you are trowing such insults that it makes me loose my mind. WTF did i ever do to you huh? Serbia has been extremy tolarent reguarding this whole matter, Serbia voted for a pro-Euro gov, just so that we can start moving forward, Serbia is giving its all to protect its own land and its ppl the right way, and now your acusing Serbia of beng an "asshole" for trying to do things the right way?

The hell with you all. Perhaps one day you will know the weight of your words, the weight of human life.

[Pejon09]

By what I read here, you are implying, just because, some ppl under a serbian banner commited horrible things, we shold suffer for a whole eternity? Just because we did something, we should be never forigven? Go and F*$# yourself! I wish for a better life, here and everywhere in the world and you are trowing such insults that it makes me loose my mind. WTF did i ever do to you huh? Serbia has been extremy tolarent reguarding this whole matter, Serbia voted for a pro-Euro gov, just so that we can start moving forward, Serbia is giving its all to protect its own land and its ppl the right way, and now your acusing Serbia of beng an "asshole" for trying to do things the right way?

The hell with you all. Perhaps one day you will know the weight of your words, the weight of human life.

Did you even read what I typed? No one is saying you should suffer, but dont expect 2M citizens returning back to the hell they experienced and risking their freedom, what if Radicals would come to power? They are not fare behind, arent they? I states we have our own problems today, so does Serbia. We want to move on, clearly thats not the case with Serbia who still tries everything to ruin for Kosova and its citizens for not joining IC. Next time re-read befor you start insulting a member, next time I will report you.

[Sousuke]

Did you even read what I typed? No one is saying you should suffer, but dont expect 2M citizens returning back to the hell they experienced and risking their freedom, what if Radicals would come to power? They are not fare behind, arent they? I states we have our own problems today, so does Serbia. We want to move on, clearly thats not the case with Serbia who still tries everything to ruin for Kosova and its citizens for not joining IC. Next time re-read befor you start insulting a member, next time I will report you.
That post wasnt directed to you, but to everyone posting crap arround here. Arian god banned because he said too much ****. I'm not sayng ppl should return to suffering. I was refering to those who say "haha **** serbia, the killed and now want law hahahahaha noobs ahhahaha" Overexajurating, bit it means the same thing. Dont you think thats a bit extreme? Atleast try to look at the situation from our perspective, as i do. I have never, ever insulted an Albanian, or whatever nationality meber because of dirty politics. We are all humans, start acting like humans, not like animals.

[BW2]

Ignorance? I lived there once, what about you? Have you ever been there Indeed I have.


or did you collect all your information from Serbianna.com lol ....typical

not only is your past knowledge immensely flawed I can see your current knowledge is no better. What about the radicals? You think if they ever won they would suddenly go on a killing spree? Ya... you got the gist of it congrats. :roll:

Hell for 2 million people... pfft I can only imagine what its for 100 000 people under constant military guard. Never before have I ever witnessed a better definition of hypocrisy then when arguing with Albanians.

You made your own hell with KLA terrorist operations against government institutions well throughout the early 90's astonishingly tolerated for over a decade, smuggling of drugs, *** slaves and other despicable acts to justify your "need" for "freedom". As if we kept you from going anywhere...

[Lokos]

republika srpska ( who is bosnian territory) was never a constitutional part of the former yugoslavian state , kosovo was

As an autonomous province of Serbia. Not a republic.

L.

[21stArmada]

Why is it hard to understand Montenegro's decission? Better yet why would they not recognize? I know all this talk about the international law, but surely that is just a gimmick. International law is first of all very ambigous including that resolution 1444 (might be wrong about the number), seccondly who will enforce this international law, Russia?? Serbia?? US?? All of these nations have more than once broken the international law to suit their needs. So if international law is open to debate, there is nothing else left for Montenegro in the way of recognition. On the contrary if they recognize 1) They have many doors in the west open. 2) they satisfy their Albanian Minority 3) they prove to Serbia (and maybe themselves) that they are independent.

The reasons for recognition far outweight the reasons not to. It is a political decission it should not really surprise anyone. Every other country will swing their vote once the reasons to start outweighing the reasons not to. Because after all "international law" can not be enforced by the very same people that break it.

[Pejon09]

As an autonomous province of Serbia. Not a republic.

L.

And had the same rights as all former ex-yugo republics, dont forget.

[SrB-23Q]

Why is it hard to understand Montenegro's decission? Better yet why would they not recognize? I know all this talk about the international law, but surely that is just a gimmick. International law is first of all very ambigous including that resolution 1444 (might be wrong about the number), seccondly who will enforce this international law, Russia?? Serbia?? US?? All of these nations have more than once broken the international law to suit their needs. So if international law is open to debate, there is nothing else left for Montenegro in the way of recognition. On the contrary if they recognize 1) They have many doors in the west open. 2) they satisfy their Albanian Minority 3) they prove to Serbia (and maybe themselves) that they are independent.

The reasons for recognition far outweight the reasons not to. It is a political decission it should not really surprise anyone. Every other country will swing their vote once the reasons to start outweighing the reasons not to. Because after all "international law" can not be enforced by the very same people that break it.

to make it a bit more understandable for you Montenegro voting against Serbia is like Cyprus voting against Greece.

this is why its a big deal in Serbia.

[BW2]

On the contrary if they recognize 1) They have many doors in the west open. 3) they prove to Serbia (and maybe themselves) that they are independent. Somehow those two points contradict each other.

[KET]

to make it a bit more understandable for you Montenegro voting against Serbia is like Cyprus voting against Greece.

this is why its a big deal in Serbia.

Umm, not really since most people in Montenegro don't consider themselves Serbian by ethnicity.

[Paya]

And had the same rights as all former ex-yugo republics, dont forget.
Of course it didn't. For example, it didn't have the all-important right to secede.


Umm, not really since most people in Montenegro don't consider themselves Serbian by ethnicity.
Most, but not by a large margin. There cases (and those are not rare) where two brothers profess different ethnicities, not to mention extended family.

In any case, there is not a Montenegrin alive, whether (s)he considers her/himself to be ethnic Montenegrin or Serb, that doesn't have family in Serbia. In fact, most residents of Central Serbia have ancestors that hailed from Montenegro.

Just a few fun facts.

[INAT]

OFFICIAL CENSUS' DATA ON ETHNICITY FROM 1909 TO 2003


1909; Princedom of Montenegro
total 317.856* inhabitants
Serbs: about 95%
Montenegrins: 0,00%
others mainly Albanians
* As it was noticed in census list, ethnicity was considered according to the mother language unless otherwise stated. Total population of Montenegro was overestimated due to political reasons, real number was about 220.000 inhabitants. 94,38% of total population were Orthodox Christians whose mother language was Serbian. There were also small number of Muslim Slavs of Serbian mother language who were also considered Serbs. Thus, about 95% of Montenegrin population in Montenegro in 1909 were the Serbs.


1921; counties Andrijevica, Bar, Kolasin, Niksic, Podgorica and Cetinje categorized in official statistics as - Montenegro; Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes
total 199.227 inhabitants
Serbs: 181.989 or 91,35%
Montenegrins: 0 or 0,00%
Albanians: 16.838 or 8,45%
Counties Berane and Bijelo Polje considered counties of southern Serbia:
Berane, total 23.864 inhabitants, Serbs 23.561 or 98,73%
Bijelo Polje, total 26.147 inhabitants, Serbs 26.136 or 99,96%

1931; Montenegro*; Kingdom of Yugoslavia
total 360.044 inhabitants
Orthodox: 272.702
Roman Catholics: 26.070
Muslims 61.038
Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian and Macedonian languages: 339.955
Albanian language: 18.098
* Only religious and lingustic data taken; processed after 1945 in Socialist Yugoslavia; results within the borders of post-1945 Montenegro.


1948; Republic of Montenegro; Socialist Yugoslavia
total 377.189 inhabitants
Serbs: 6.707 or 1,78%
Montenegrins: 342.009 or 90,67%
Albanians: 19.425 or 5,15%
Croats: 6.808 or 1,8%


1953; Republic of Montenegro; Socialist Yugoslavia
total 419.873 inhabitants
Serbs: 13.864 or 3,3%
Montenegrins: 363.686 or 86,62%
Croats: 9.814 or 2,34%
Yugoslavs: 6.424 or 1,53%
Albanians: 23.460 or 5,58%


1961; Republic of Montenegro; Socialist Yugoslavia
total 471.894 inhabitants
Serbs: 14.087 or 2,99%
Montenegrins: 383.988 or 81,37%
Muslims: 30.665 or 6,5%
Croats: 10.664 or 2,26%
Yugoslavs: 1.559 or 0,33%
Albanians: 25.803 or 5,47%


1971; Republic of Montenegro; Socialist Yugoslavia
total 529.604 inhabitants
Serbs: 39.512 or 7,46%
Montenegrins: 355.632 or 67,15%
Muslims: 70.236 or 13,26%
Croats: 9.192 or 1,74%
Yugoslavs: 10.943 or 2,07%
Albanians: 35.671 or 6,74%


1981; Republic of Montenegro; Socialist Yugoslavia
total 584.310 inhabitants
Serbs: 19.407 or 3,32%
Montenegrins: 400.488 or 68,54%
Muslims: 78.080 or 13,36%
Croats: 6.904 or 1,81%
Yugoslavs: 33.146 or 5,67%
Albanians: 37.735 or 6,46%


1991; Republic of Montenegro; Socialist Yugoslavia
total 615.035 inhabitants
Serbs: 57.453 or 9,34%
Montenegrins: 380.467 or 61,86%
Muslims: 89.614 or 14,57%
Croats: 6.244 or 1,02%
Yugoslavs: 26.159 or 4,25%
Albanians: 40.415 or 6,57%


2003; Republic of Montenegro; State Union of Serbia & Montenegro total 672.656 inhabitants
Serbs: 201.892 or 30,01%
Montenegrins: 273.366 or 40,64%
Bosniaks: 63.272 or 9,41%
Muslims: 28.714 or 4,27%
Croats: 7.062 or 1,05%
Albanians: 47.682 or 7,09%

[V.I.D.]

You know, sometimes I wonder if people (for example, KET's statement) are truly not aware of these facts or are they just spewing lies on purpose. I'd prefer if people would do their research before throwing audacious (and false) statements around as facts. For F..k sake, Montenegrins have been just recently (up until 2006) hailed as "Super Serbs" in journalistic pieces/books.

Example:

Playing Chicken With Milosevic



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By BLAINE HARDEN
Published: April 25, 1999
Until Milo Djukanovic's new best friends in the United States and Western Europe began to drop bombs on Montenegro in late March, life had been going along swimmingly for the handsome young President of this Yugoslav republic.
Just 37 years old, built like an N.F.L. linebacker, packaged in dark Italian suits, married to an attractive blonde and hailed by voters as Milo the Blade, Djukanovic (djew-KAHN-oh-vich) has been playing a deliciously wicked game of chicken with the Serbian dictator Slobodan Milosevic. Before bombs and cruise missiles began to rain on Yugoslavia, the Montenegrin President even seemed to be winning.
For the first time since 1918, when Serbia annexed this mountainous, Connecticut-size republic on the Adriatic Sea and turned it into a perennial Yugoslav little brother, Montenegro was moving toward an independent and democratic future linked to the economies of Western Europe and the United States. Milosevic, so tactically brilliant in using ethnic hate to consolidate power, wasn't able to get a grip on the republic's 650,000 residents, even though he ruled 15 times as many people and more than 6 times as much land and commanded the formidable Yugoslav Army.

Montenegrins spent nearly 500 years fighting the Ottoman Empire, but unlike the Serbs, with whom they share the Orthodox religion, they were never entirely conquered in their mountain stronghold and so have always suffered from ''a kind of permanent schizophrenia,'' says Milan Popovic, a Yugoslav sociologist. Montenegrins are animated by the same feelings of historical victimhood as Serbs, and many see themselves as a nation of ''super Serbs,'' made somehow of tougher, more warlike stuff than the average resident of Serbia. At the same time, though, there is a tradition of mountain independence and an abiding suspicion that Serbia plays Montenegro for the fool. There is a saying here, ''Serbs will fight until the last Montenegrin dies.''
Djukanovic has challenged Milosevic with an impudent Balkan mix of Montenegrin populism, police muscle, cigarette smuggling and wisecracks about Milosevic's wife. Instead of howling about historical wrongs, whipping up nationalistic paranoia and ordering ethnic cleansing, Milo the Blade has preached free-market prosperity and eased ethnic tensions by securing the civil rights of his republic's Muslim and Albanian minorities.

Although Djukanovic tested and taunted Milosevic, he took care never to say or do anything anti-Serb. He never lost sight of who had the tanks and stopped short of a direct confrontation that could bring out the Yugoslav Army. Montenegro and Serbia are all that's left of the six republics that once made up Yugoslavia. Under the federal Constitution, they are supposedly equal, but larger Serbia has always dominated. And Djukanovic has remained immune to Tin Pot Leader Syndrome, a dizzying and endemic Balkan malady that infected his next-door neighbor, Franjo Tudjman, the President of Croatia, whose nationalist swagger terrified the Serb minority and helped provoke a war with Serbia.

Djukanovic is no choirboy. He started out in public life 10 years ago as a Communist enforcer for Milosevic. As one of the Serb leader's handpicked henchmen in Montenegro, he developed a state-sponsored air-and-sea smuggling operation that, paradoxically, gave him the financial resources to slip free of Milosevic's iron grip and evolve into a Balkan rarity -- a democrat.
The United States State Department says it believes Djukanovic's conversion is real, and so do the handful of long-suffering human rights activists who have watched him rise to power. His bully-boy past is unsavory, even criminal, they say, but he came of age in a very bad Balkan neighborhood where smart democrats with popular support and the guts (and police power) to stand up to Milosevic are hard to find. The region desperately needs a hero, and Djukanovic is perhaps the one leader whom the West can rally around.
Yet NATO bombs have changed all that. They have belied Djukanovic's promise to voters that a turn to the West would produce peace and wealth and emboldened his enemies who, with Milosevic's conniving, have already tried to overthrow his Government by force.

Or:
Monday, January 28, 2008

BACK IN THE OLD DAYS ... LIKE 500 YEARS AGO (http://lazarsbreath.blogspot.com/2008/01/back-in-old-days-like-500-years-ago.html)

It may depend on "where" you were raised, and educated, and to "which" Serb colony you were reared in, but, here in America during the 1950's when "I" would listen to the tales from my elders, here is what I learned:

1378: Serbians rebel against the Muslims, but are brutally repressed. In the city of Niš, all adult people are killed. The sultan orders that the children are to be raised as Muslims - later they will turn into the first Janissaries, and fight against us at Kosovo in 1389.

After our fall of Kosovo polje, the Serb church was forced into a very new role, they became the countries storehouse of intellegencia, and some very panicked Bishops and Priests had to begin talking with the land-owner Barons, and Mayors, and wealthy about everyone's future plan.

The field of blackbirds failure had decimated our best leaders, and simply broke the back of whatever government and power structure Serbia had ... a "what next" plan had to be laid.
One known was that the Turks needed to feed this army, and, that there was no mercy to be expected in their taking whatever they wanted or needed, although tough to move the Serb moved.

For certain, the loss of "our best" had to be prevented, and our base of wealth (be it chickens, sheep or gold) had to be removed or hidden away for future use by us, not them. It is best to let my setup of this story rest here .... you get the picture (circa 1400 AD in Serbia). In 1406 the Turks try to conquer Montenegro are surprisingly beaten back by the Montenegrin/Serb
collective.

As the story worsens for our people (and the entire region), some odd allies and new friends develop, along with some irrepairable hatreds. Our Serbian folk lore tells us something like this:
Way back in the 1380's when the call went out to the entire Christian world for help against the Infidel (for the upcoming battle), many scoffed-even laughed at the urgency. Among those who did not laugh and promised forces were the Crna Gorans or Montenegrins.

The Montenegrins had the most fearsome Army on the planet (it was rumored), and were totally merciless warriors ... as the story goes, they got the schedule wrong, and showed up to fight one day too late, "after" the battle was over! They became a burial squad, and were so enraged at what they saw, and at their not being there to insure Serbian victory, they became eternally devoted to Serbia.

Many tales abound, but the direction they all take is that the Montenegrins saved the Serbian flag and battle gear, handled all of the clean-up and return of bodies (including Lazar's), before scooping up the serbian crown, flag, treasury and the best of who was left (as a soldier, Intellegencia, and leader) to the Crna Goran palaces for protection and military planning.

I grew up with the story that the "only" piece of real estate on the planet ... that had "never" been conquered was Montenegro, and that these were the Super Serbs, Since the Serb flag never actually was "taken" the Serbs never "really" lost the battle... we were never told about the Crnojevic departure and the 1500 final acquisition of the Montenegrin lands into the Islamic yoke.

The stories that circulated, I now guess, were from the era of the 1800's on, and involved the Petar Njegosh and Vuk Karadzic' stories and rise of Serb Nationalistic thought (in an Austrian world), in reality.... Serbia virtually disappeared during the 1500 to 1800 period...

During those long dark years, even my own family went into a sort of cocoon, a limbo, an alter-lifestyle ... not in the homeland, but as aliens in another country serving for another government. It is hard to imagine a time period as extended as 300 years, during which a country could disappear without going extinct. well, perhaps not, "if" you know about serbs.

Many years later, in the 1970's or so, it seemed like suddenly these "Super Serbs" were being looked at differently ... the word began to change, suddenly the Crna Goran was an untrusted-"keep one eye on them"- sort of situation, ????

During the years of "Jugoslavia"... I can now see (as an American) how so very much was distorted, mis-interpreted, concealed. Let's take a jump into time and 2008, firstly, Montenegro broke away from the homeland, to us unknowing Americans ... this was a total shock ! Serbia's "eye to the sea" was lost, and it was apparent that so was the love, and the history, and all that I knew.

Now, we are looking at the Kosovo breakaway, and the Serbian...possibly the Macedonian border closures and sanctions on trade... how powerful! yet, Montenegro says "no problem, "our" borders are open....you can deal with us!"

I do not know how history can go so wrong, and I do not know how a betrayal really works ... (especially) after 700 years, but, one thing I must fall back on, ..... allegiance .
I personally have no greater judgment of man, country or love... than allegiance.

As we close out our great Kosovo experience, (no matter what the outcome), we will learn about our region, and our Serbian past in a way that may have been known to us for hundreds of years... only not fully (after all, we still have to learn about ourselves).

But for Montenegro to be a "bypass valve" and port of entry around a Serbian embargo and border closure would be totally unforgiveable.

Smederevo
at 8:02 AM (http://lazarsbreath.blogspot.com/2008/01/back-in-old-days-like-500-years-ago.html) http://www.blogger.com/img/icon18_edit_allbkg.gif (http://www.blogger.com/post-edit.g?blogID=3186489286871357442&postID=2745688629832069980)
Labels: BACK IN THE OLD DAYS (http://lazarsbreath.blogspot.com/search/label/BACK%20IN%20THE%20OLD%20DAYS)

[INAT]

Montenegro was the beacon of Serbdom through 500 dark years of Ottoman Islamic rule. Modern lies and propaganda can try to trick people
and fool them into thinking all kinds of nonsense. Read any history
about the area and you decide with your own mind who they are

Petar Petrovic Njegos was a great poet, a prince by inheritance, and the Bishop of Montenegro in the first half of the nineteenth century. In fulfilling successfully these roles imposed on him by circumstances, he not only built for himself a pedestal among the immortals but also set his beloved Montenegro on the road toward full self-realization. Today he is revered as Montenegro's most illustrious son and the greatest poet in Serbian literature.

I use him because the " poem The Mountan Wreath" and Njegos were from Montenegro but Serbian.I do not understand where the confusion is.

I was born in Vojvodina does that mean I am now not a Serb?:roll:



http://www.rastko.org.yu/knjizevnost/njegos/njegos-mountain_wreath.html

[Paya]

I was born in Vojvodina does that mean I am now not a Serb?:roll:
No, but it does mean you're inherently fatter, blonder, and have a far less inclination to alcohol and a far greater inclination to lamb and recreational drugs than us mountain Serbs. Also, "Pooooolaaaako" is the single most used word in your vocabulary. p-)

[Pejon09]

Of course it didn't. For example, it didn't have the all-important right to secede.

Show me sources, (exclude Serbianna.com or Serbian Government sites)

[Paya]

Show me sources, (exclude Serbianna.com or Serbian Government sites)
You seriously overestimate my willingness to jump on your whim. If you're really interested, google "Yugoslav Constitution", or "SFRJ Constitution", and have a nice, albeit long read.

On a side note, I really don't know what the hell "Serbianna.com" is, but it seems it's rather popular with the Albanian crowd on these boards...

[Pejon09]

You seriously overestimate my willingness to jump on your whim. If you're really interested, google "Yugoslav Constitution", or "SFRJ Constitution", and have a nice, albeit long read.

On a side note, I really don't know what the hell "Serbianna.com" is, but it seems it's rather popular with the Albanian crowd on these boards...

I already did, it stated equal rights as all other republics including veto power on the federal level. We had almost everything, only the name was the obstacle to be seen as republic, and so later could be used by Slobo and his regime to screw it up and claim it Serbian with a population of 5-6% commanding the majority. Yeah right!

[Paya]

I already did, it stated equal rights as all other republics including veto power on the federal level. We had almost everything, only the name was the obstacle to be seen as republic, and so later could be used by Slobo and his regime to screw it up and claim it Serbian with a population of 5-6% commanding the majority. Yeah right!
Not exactly. If you think concepts like "narod" vs. "narodnost" and republic vs. autonomous province of a republic are just wording niceties, and if you think Kosovo had the legal right to secede from either Yugoslavia or Serbia, then you have clearly misread or not fully read the SFRJ Constitution.

Maybe there is someone less lazy than me on these boards who will quote the exact paragraphs to you, but I would suggest rereading the document.

[KET]

Really? If Montenegrins were the "super-Serbs" how come they were so eager to break up the union? Some logic seems to be missing here.

Ethnic groups:

Montenegrin 43%, Serbian 32%, Bosniak 8%, Albanian 5%, other (Muslims, Croats, Roma (Gypsy)) 12% (2003 census)
Religions:

I don't know anything about them being Super-Serbs but if someone declares himself of another ethnicity I guess it means that they are from a different ethnicity.

[Lokos]

I don't know anything about them being Super-Serbs but if someone declares himself of another ethnicity I guess it means that they are from a different ethnicity.

The figures fluctuate from year to year to such a degree as to show that the majority of Montenegro's population self-identifies as Montenegrin and Serb alternately, according to contemporary trends...

Consider:


In today's Montenegro, ethnic Montenegrins and Serbs are divided largely on the basis of political identification. Serbs are native to the state since the 7th century A.D.[9][10] and remained a majority people all the way to the 20th century.[11] Since the violent Christmas Uprising (1919), which saw fighting between the pro-Petrovic guerillas and the Karadjordjevic troops, there was a significant opposition to unification with Serbia.[12] As a consequence of the civil conflict, following the end of the WWII the population shifted overwhelmingly in favour of separate Montenegrin ethnicity (91%).[13] Following the collapse of Communism in Yugoslavia however, more and more Montenegrins began to again self-identify as Serbs (33%), while the greatest proportion of citizens of Montenegro still declare 'Montenegrin' as their ethnicity (43%).[14

And:


The number of "Montenegrins" and "Serbs" fluctuates wildly from census to census, not due to real changes in the populace, but due to changes in how people experience their identity. According to the latest poll from early 2008,[citation needed] 44.8% citizens of Montenegro considered themselves Montenegrins and 33.6% Serbs. According to the 2002 census, there are around 70,000 ethnic Montenegrins in Serbia, accounting for 0.92% of the Republic's population. The number of Montenegrin citizens in Serbia runs to several hundreds of thousands (nearly 300,000 est.), but most of them identify as Serbs.

It is a complex issue, and your simplistic take on it isn't helpful, KET.

L.

[zg18]

Really? If Montenegrins were the "super-Serbs" how come they were so eager to break up the union? Some logic seems to be missing here.I don't know if Montenegrin are super "Serbs" but i can tell you that most orthodox Montenegrins voted for Union , independence woudn't be achived without votes of Albanian, Muslim and catholic minority communities (about 25% population).


It is a complex issue, and your simplistic take on it isn't helpful, KET. I woudn't be so critical, folks outside our "playground" can't really understand relations between South Slavic peoples.

[TeslaN]

Funny thing is, nobody in Motenegro supports or even recognizes this decision by the government.

Protest in Montenegro's naval port town of Bar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIlnfSjnMZ0

[KET]

Funny thing is, nobody in Motenegro supports or even recognizes this decision by the government.
Well first, they don't have to. They elected a government to make that decision for them.

Second I don't really know who "nobody in Montenegro" is, because there are plenty Albanians, Bosniaks and Montenegrins who support Kosovo independence.


I don't know if Montenegrin are super "Serbs" but i can tell you that most orthodox Montenegrins voted for Union , independence woudn't be achived without votes of Albanian, Muslim and catholic minority communities (about 25% population).
Well "most" is not enough and as you said Montenegro is not just Montenegrins and Serbs so nobody should be surprised. If I were to guess I would say that more than half of people in Montenegro don't have a problem with this decision.

[Hyde]

And had the same rights as all former ex-yugo republics, dont forget.

That, my dear, is just so, so, so, sooo wrong. The only thing it was was an installation by tito to keep the albanian uprisings from the 60s and 70s down and to get a better leverage over the demographiclly superior serbs and thus, a higher con-serb vote count when it comes to vetoing or any other vote-related things, since before, it was mostly 3 - 3 in republics vote, with croatia, slovenia and bosnia on one side and montenegro, serbia and macedonia on the other. I can't decide wheter to tell you to use your brain or to stop being a liar. And, dont even jump onto it, you disqualified yourself from any form of discussion, the only thing i will do is correct you when you spill wrong facts and lies all over the place, so dont even bother trying to contradict to me.

[Mate]

That, my dear, is just so, so, so, sooo wrong. The only thing it was was an installation by tito to keep the albanian uprisings from the 60s and 70s down and to get a better leverage over the demographiclly superior serbs and thus, a higher con-serb vote count when it comes to vetoing or any other vote-related things, since before, it was mostly 3 - 3 in republics vote, with croatia, slovenia and bosnia on one side and montenegro, serbia and macedonia on the other. I can't decide wheter to tell you to use your brain or to stop being a liar. And, dont even jump onto it, you disqualified yourself from any form of discussion, the only thing i will do is correct you when you spill wrong facts and lies all over the place, so dont even bother trying to contradict to me.
You could be more objective ....what makes you more special than us?

[Hyde]

Really? If Montenegrins were the "super-Serbs" how come they were so eager to break up the union? Some logic seems to be missing here.

Ethnic groups:

Montenegrin 43%, Serbian 32%, Bosniak 8%, Albanian 5%, other (Muslims, Croats, Roma (Gypsy)) 12% (2003 census)
Religions:

I don't know anything about them being Super-Serbs but if someone declares himself of another ethnicity I guess it means that they are from a different ethnicity.

Hey everybody, I am an Marsian.

Well, I said it, so it must be true.:roll:

[Hyde]

You could be more objective ....what makes you more special than us?

Because I know. I do not suggest, talk, blather, rumour or spread false things to get any symphaty or make believe i am right to get any support from other people. That is why I am not discussing facts. There is nothing to discuss. You share "opinions", which means just blather around, while I am only interested in facts. You can not provide them, so dont try to talk to me, because I am not interested in your stories and fairy-tales.

[KET]

Hey everybody, I am an Marsian.

Well, I said it, so it must be true.:roll:

:cantbeli:

[Mate]

Because I know. I do not suggest, talk, blather, rumour or spread false things to get any symphaty or make believe i am right to get any support from other people. That is why I am not discussing facts. There is nothing to discuss. You share "opinions", which means just blather around, while I am only interested in facts. You can not provide them, so dont try to talk to me, because I am not interested in your stories and fairy-tales.
Ok...next time you see a Ballkan thread just close your eyes ok?p-).

[zg18]

Well "most" is not enough and as you said Montenegro is not just Montenegrins and Serbs so nobody should be surprised. If I were to guess I would say that more than half of people in Montenegro don't have a problem with this decision.

With what decision? Independence referendum or recognizing Kosovo?

[Hyde]

:cantbeli:

So you got it. Nice.

[The Balkan]

Surely I'm not the onlyone that noticed the differences in Montenegrin people and Serbian people? Physicly I mean? And in culture? Plenty there for their own identity which they had as a regional identity even when they proclaimed themselves as Serbs. Why would they be "Super-Serbs" if the're the same exact people lol.

They may have considered themselves Serbs before mainly cuz of Orthodoxy and language, but that's nott he case at the moment. Although I'll admit they change it to suit their current needs. Kinda like Bosniak and Croat authors in Yugoslavia opting for Serbdom to sell books and advance their career lolz

[Wrangel]

Surely I'm not the onlyone that noticed the differences in Montenegrin people and Serbian people? Physicly I mean? And in culture? Plenty there for their own identity which they had as a regional identity even when they proclaimed themselves as Serbs. Why would they be "Super-Serbs" if the're the same exact people lol.


Answer is very simple.You are "Bosniak",your people were at war with Serbs,and you obviously don't like Serbs (although you will never admit that openly). I believe that you,and your ethnic group have clear ethnic interest to see Serbs divided.
Therefore,you also have interest of making such statements on this forum,because:
1.This annoys Serbs,and many of them are actually of Montenegrin origin.
2.Because there are lot of foreigners here,who are mostly ignorant.
3.Because its make you fun (connected to 1)

However,most of these reasons have nothing to do with Montenegrin actual identity,nor with Kosovo.


Greatest irony,is that leader of Bosnian Serb government,and main person responsible (according to allegations) for massacre of Bosniacs (your people) during war was Montenegrin itself - Radovan Karadzic.

Leader of Serbia,at the time of that war was Slobodan Milosevic...another Montenegrin,that according to you is not Serb.

Current president of Serbia is Montenegrin as well.

[The Balkan]

Answer is very simple.You are "Bosniak",your people were at war with Serbs,and you obviously don't like Serbs (although you will never admit that openly). I believe that you,and your ethnic group have clear ethnic interest to see Serbs divided.
Therefore,you also have interest of making such statements on this forum,because:
1.This annoys Serbs,and many of them are actually of Montenegrin origin.
2.Because there are lot of foreigners here,who are mostly ignorant.
3.Because its make you fun (connected to 1)

However,most of these reasons have nothing to do with Montenegrin actual identity,nor with Kosovo.


Greatest irony,is that leader of Bosnian Serb government,and main person responsible (according to allegations) for massacre of Bosniacs (your people) during war was Montenegrin itself - Radovan Karadzic.

Leader of Serbia,at the time of that war was Slobodan Milosevic...another Montenegrin,that according to you is not Serb.

Current president of Serbia is Montenegrin as well.

LOL WUT

No guy really...Montenegrins are usualy very tall and bigger looking, and their culture is unique to them as well...

[Wrangel]

LOL WUT

No guy really...Montenegrins are usualy very tall and bigger looking, and their culture is unique to them as well...

So Montengrins are not Serbs,since they are very tall and big? :)

Bavarians have different culture from Saxons,does this means they are not both Germans?

[The Balkan]

So Montengrins are not Serbs,since they are very tall and big? :)

Bavarians have different culture from Saxons,does this means they are not both Germans?

No now you're just saying things I didn't say, and since you makeit a mission to twist or missunderstand posts I'm done talking to you.

[Pejon09]

That, my dear, is just so, so, so, sooo wrong. The only thing it was was an installation by tito to keep the albanian uprisings from the 60s and 70s down and to get a better leverage over the demographiclly superior serbs and thus, a higher con-serb vote count when it comes to vetoing or any other vote-related things, since before, it was mostly 3 - 3 in republics vote, with croatia, slovenia and bosnia on one side and montenegro, serbia and macedonia on the other. I can't decide wheter to tell you to use your brain or to stop being a liar. And, dont even jump onto it, you disqualified yourself from any form of discussion, the only thing i will do is correct you when you spill wrong facts and lies all over the place, so dont even bother trying to contradict to me.

Is that so? And wich side did Vojvodina take? It would still be 4-4, now wouldnt it? :)

[Pejon09]

So Montengrins are not Serbs,since they are very tall and big? :)

Bavarians have different culture from Saxons,does this means they are not both Germans?

The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe, live on a barren limestone mountain upland, where they, for centuries, succeeded in maintainingnheir Christianity and their freedom while surrounded by the Turks. They, like the northern Albanians, preserve their old exogamous clan organization, and their clan loyalties and feuds. They are linguistically Serbs, but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians; the cultural continuity between the two peoples is striking, the only real differences being those of language and religion. Although the Montenegrins are divided geographically into several sections, the racial differences between these are not great, and for the present purpose the Montenegrins will be dealt with as a whole. Where there are regional differences, the Old Montenegrins, who show the most extreme development in typically Montenegrin characters, will be referred to.126

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-12.htm (http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-12.htm)

[Mordoror]

that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians

:cantbeli:rofl:cantbeli:

just taking some chips and waiting for reactions ....

anyway its astonishing to see nowadays that everything in the Balkan belongs one way or the other to the Albanian
Great Albania creeping thingy ....... :bash:

And please when you post such BS provide at least some scientific facts and links

[Pejon09]

:cantbeli:rofl:cantbeli:

just taking some chips and waiting for reactions ....

anyway its astonishing to see nowadays that everything in the Balkan belongs one way or the other to the Albanian
Great Albania creeping thingy ....... :bash:

And please when you post such BS provide at least some scientific facts and links

Why do you get upset, I dont see you reacting the same way when wrangler likes to post his information.

Albanians didnt wrote it, and yes it has a link.

[BW2]

The tallest people in Europe are actually the Dutch...

All this BS about "Montenegrins" actually being different than Serbs is just that, BS. Serbs all around are incredibly tall people and if you think the height of a person determines their ethnicity then your total idiot. What I would say is a lie, is that Montenegrins are the biggest (I refer to national pride not height) Serbs. They certainly are not. The biggest and most heroic Serbs are from Šumadija.

End of story.

[Wrangel]

The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe, live on a barren limestone mountain upland, where they, for centuries, succeeded in maintainingnheir Christianity and their freedom while surrounded by the Turks. They, like the northern Albanians, preserve their old exogamous clan organization, and their clan loyalties and feuds. They are linguistically Serbs, but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians; the cultural continuity between the two peoples is striking, the only real differences being those of language and religion. Although the Montenegrins are divided geographically into several sections, the racial differences between these are not great, and for the present purpose the Montenegrins will be dealt with as a whole. Where there are regional differences, the Old Montenegrins, who show the most extreme development in typically Montenegrin characters, will be referred to.126

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-12.htm (http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-12.htm)

So Slobodan Milosevic and Radovan Karadzic are Albanians? :)


By the way,acording to this link Alexander The Great was Albanian as well:

http://albhistory.netfirms.com/famousalbanians-alexander.html

[zg18]

Only Slavized Albanian tribe are called Kuqi ,they shifted their religion from catholicism to orthodoxy and interesting enough ,they are now hardcore Serbs (Momir Bulatovic :))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku%C4%8Di

[KET]

Only Slavized Albanian tribe are called Kuqi ,they shifted their religion from catholicism to orthodoxy and interesting enough ,they are now hardcore Serbs (Momir Bulatovic :))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku%C4%8Di

That's interesting and sad at the same time.

[Wrangel]

Only Slavized Albanian tribe are called Kuqi ,they shifted their religion from catholicism to orthodoxy and interesting enough ,they are now hardcore Serbs (Momir Bulatovic :))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku%C4%8Di

This is not what your link says:


Kuči is one of the Serb Highland clans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serb_clans) in Montenegro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro), and is also a name of geographical region in eastern Montenegro which the clan populates. The region is located north-east of Podgorica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podgorica), and extends along the border with Albania, thus one reason why most of the tribe's population is Albanophone. The geographic region took the name of the tribe, historically being called Zatrijebač.
Grča (Gavrilo) Nenadin, a member of the noble Serbian Mrnjavčević (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrnjav%C4%8Devi%C4%87) clan, had decided to immigrate from Scutari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scutari) in present-day northern Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania) (Malësia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%C3%ABsia)) to an area on the Cijevna River Basin in present-day Montenegro, near the village of Korita in the last decade of the XIV century. His son, Panto Grčin (or Grčić), and his sons: Petar, Đurađ, Tiho(mir), Mara (Marin/Marko) and L(j)eš (Aleksa), had immigrated to the village of Orahovo in 1416 and later formed the building blocks of what was later to become the Old Kuči clan.
According to folk telling, Petar Pantin (or Pantović) had four sons, Marko, Andrija, Vuko (Vukašin) and Nikač. Vuko and Andrija were, however, never mentioned in any family tree in Orahovo, possibly because either they probably never bore any male offspring or had left Orahovo early in their lives. Vuko did indeed leave Orahovo and immigrated somewhere toward Malësia.

It is also believed through folk telling that Grča's brothers, Krsto and Šako, were the founding fathers of the Kastrati (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kastrati) and Shaljani (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shaljani&action=edit&redlink=1) tribes. The Mrnjavčević brotherhood claims origin from Gojko Mrnjavčević (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gojko_Mrnjav%C4%8Devi%C4%87&action=edit&redlink=1), possible brother of Serb King Vukašin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuka%C5%A1in_Mrnjav%C4%8Devi%C4%87). Many Mrnjavčevićs crossed over to Islam, among the most notable the Ganići in Rožaje and Radonjičići (today Radončić) in Gusinje.
The founders of the Albanian clans Klimenti (Amati or Klmen) and Berisha migrated from the Kuči over the ages. The Komatovićs in Brnjak also are a separate brotherhood that broke off from this clan.This is interesting:





Vuk crossed over to Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) and became the forefather of the Turkovići in Podgorica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podgorica). These all Kucis hence became known as "the New Kuči". The ethnic Albanian Banjkani clan claims descent from the House of Crnojević (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Crnojevi%C4%87).This is interesting view:








Christian Orthodox residents used to be split into two distinct groups: Starokuči (Old Kuči) and Drekalovići. The Old Kuči is generally seen as being of Serb descent and have settled in the area at the time of the Serbian empire. The Novi Kuči (generally referred to as "Drekalovići") are a large group of clans (bratstva) that share the same ancestor - Drekale Kastrioti. He is believed to have been an ethnic Christian Albanian that settled in the area in the 16th century.

[zg18]

That's interesting and sad at the same time.

Why is that? It's Balkan ,peoples often moved from place to place, shifting religions, languages ,identity. BTW Albania is full with Slavic toponyms ;) It's normal thing and should be viewed as normal.


This is not what your link says:

One part of Kuqi tribe are indeed Slavized Albanians ,it's known in Montenegro.

[KET]

Why is that? It's Balkan ,peoples often moved from place to place, shifting religions, languages ,identity. BTW Albania is full with Slavic toponyms ;) It's normal thing and should be viewed as normal.

Well, shifting religions is one thing. "Shifting" nationality and ethnicity is another, especially for Northern Albanians.

[Wrangel]

One part of Kuqi tribe are indeed Slavized Albanians ,it's known in Montenegro.

I don't know rumors about what is "known in Montenegro",I'm talking about your own link.
According to link,some Albanian clans are of Montenegrin Serbian origin,not other way around.

[zg18]

I don't know rumors about what is "known in Montenegro",I'm talking about your own link.
According to link,some Albanian clans are of Montenegrin Serbian origin,not other way around.


Oh man ,give me a break :) yes some Albanians got Slavized and some Montenegrins-Serbs got Albanized satisfied?


Well, shifting religions is one thing. "Shifting" nationality and ethnicity is another, especially for Northern Albanians.What nationality ,we are talking about process before 400 years involving patriarchal clan society ,nations are product of 19th century ,who gived sh*t about religion or language only parameter of success was survival.

[KET]

What nationality ,we are talking about process before 400 years involving patriarchal clan society ,nations are product of 19th century ,who gived sh*t about religion or language only parameter of success was survival.

Nationality as in "ethnic identity/background/language/traditions/culture." Nations did not pop up for no reason at all. There was a foundation to begin with. Albanians had that identity long before Gjergj Kastrioti united the Albanian principalities and even centuries before these Albanian tribes "shifted" or vice-versa

[zg18]

Nationality as in "ethnic identity/background/language/traditions/culture." Nations did not pop up for no reason at all. There was a foundation to begin with. Albanians had that identity long before Gjergj Kastrioti united the Albanian principalities and even centuries before these Albanian tribes "shifted" or vice-versa

Yes ,that's true but nations were far away from this ethnic melting in Balkans 16-19th century. Unifications were pretty much short term by Balkan standards ,in fact true leaders were local rulers who didn't pay much importance for language or religion and their people followed leader policy ,it's very complex issue almost like spider nett :).

[The Balkan]

Kuci tribe is indeed mixed. Marko Miljanov the famous warrior and writer himself had a Albanian mother. He mostly called himselfa Serb though cuz of religion and language, but he did write a book about the life and customsof Albanians.

They were allied with the Hoti against the Ottomans.

Also guess what the name Arnautovic means? lol.

And in Sandzak the 'Hot' family of Bosniaks, also comes from Hoti. My dad was there with them for a while.

[KET]

Also guess what the name Arnautovic means? lol.

LOL Arnautovic. This is too funny. For those who don't know: Arnaut - "Albanian" (in Turkish) vic - "son of/descendant" (in Serbian.)

WOW what a politically incorrect last name!

[Wrangel]

Kuci tribe is indeed mixed. Marko Miljanov the famous warrior and writer himself had a Albanian mother. He mostly called himselfa Serb though cuz of religion and language, but he did write a book about the life and customsof Albanians.

They were allied with the Hoti against the Ottomans.

Also guess what the name Arnautovic means? lol.

And in Sandzak the 'Hot' family of Bosniaks, also comes from Hoti. My dad was there with them for a while.

So what exactly is your point?


LOL Arnautovic. This is too funny. For those who don't know: Arnaut - "Albanian" (in Turkish) vic - "son of/descendant" (in Serbian.) wow what a politically incorrect mess!

Yes,funny that you mentioned that,since this is what I have found when i searched for etymology:

Arnauti,Georgia:

http://travelingluck.com/Asia/Georgia/Georgia+(general)/_799937_Arnauti.html#local_map
http://ilm.www.ee/en/location/Georgia/Arnauti/?coordinate=41.5319444,44.6411111

Perhaps Georgians on Caucasus are some long lost Albanian tribe?

[The Balkan]

So what exactly is your point?



Yes,funny that you mentioned that,since this is what I have found when i searched for etymology:

Arnauti,Georgia:

http://travelingluck.com/Asia/Georgia/Georgia+(general)/_799937_Arnauti.html#local_map
http://ilm.www.ee/en/location/Georgia/Arnauti/?coordinate=41.5319444,44.6411111

Perhaps Georgians on Caucasus are some long lost Albanian tribe?

Arnaut is what Turks called Albanians genius.

[KET]

Perhaps Georgians on Caucasus are some long lost Albanian tribe?

Yes, you have found them. BRAVO. Why don't you write a paper on that and maybe they'll give you a Nobel prize. Gosh people!

[Wrangel]

Arnaut is what Turks called Albanians genius.

Then how come there is identical name in Georgia,Caucasus?
Were there Albanians?

And by the way I don't see how your stories of some rebelled Bosnian Muslim warlords in 19 century,Serbian nobility of 15 century,members of some Montenegrin clan that had Albanian wives,or etymology of surnames have to do with Macedonian and Montenegrin governments recognition of Kosovo,when as they admit themselves was done under western pressure?

[The Balkan]

Then how come there is identical name in Georgia,Caucasus?
Were there Albanians?


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Arnaut
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaut

Stop. Seriosly. It's basic knowledge. That's what Turks called them. Don't know what else to tell you. Any educated Serb will tell you the same.

[Wrangel]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Arnaut
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaut

Stop. Seriosly. It's basic knowledge. That's what Turks called them. Don't know what else to tell you. Any educated Serb will tell you the same.

Again,what this have to do with Kosovo recognition by world superpowers Macedonia and Montenegro?

And about basic knowledge:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaut_de_Mareuil



Arnaut de Mareuil[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaut_de_Mareuil#cite_note-0) (fl. late 12th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century)) was a troubadour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubadour), composing lyric poetry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyric_poetry) in the Occitan language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language). Twenty-five, perhaps twenty-nine, of his songs, all cansos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canso_%28song%29), survive, six with music.
His name indicates that he came from Mareuil-sur-Belle (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mareuil-sur-Belle&action=edit&redlink=1) in Périgord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A9rigord).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaut_Daniel


Arnaut Daniel de Riberac (today Arnaut Danièl) was an Occitan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan) troubadour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubadour) of the 12th century, praised by Dante (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante_Alighieri) as "il miglior fabbro" (the best craftsman/creator, literally "the best smith") and called "Grand Master of Love" by Petrarch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrarch). In the 20th century he was lauded by Ezra Pound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Pound) as the greatest poet to have ever lived in his work The Spirit of Romance (1910).

Perhaps Frenchmen are Albanians as well....

[Sumadinac]

As Zg18 said, it's about 80% (opinion polls). Every orthodox Montenegrin who voted for independance does not necessarily hates Serbia.

Don't forget that the minorities count for about 20% in Montenegro and include mainly Albanians and Bosniaks. Thanks to them, Montenegro is independant. You could also have a look to the number of adherents of the Montenegrin Church and Serbian Church : around 400 000 people are adherents of the Serbian Orthodox Church, while around 50 000 people are adherent of Montenegrin Church. The number of adherents of the Serbian Orthodox Church corresponds to the number of people who declared to speak Serbian in the last census (393 740).

We can say that about 400 000 people in Montenegro is more or less pro-Serbian (wich does not mean that they are against independance).

[Wrangel]

We can say that about 400 000 people in Montenegro is more or less pro-Serbian (wich does not mean that they are against independance).

I believe that Montenegro independence has more to do with EU membership,than to do with "against Serbia",since it is much easier for Montenegro to join EU as independent state,then with Serbia which has unresolved territorial problems.
For the same reason they have done this Kosovo thing,since of massive US and EU pressure,and probably due to fact that Montenegrin prime minister participated in Yugoslavia wars,and is suspected as criminal by Italy.
But as long as he is compliant with western wishes,this will be unmentioned.


P.S


Don't forget that the minorities count for about 20% in Montenegro and include mainly Albanians and Bosniaks. Thanks to them, Montenegro is independant.

And as we see on this forum,members of these two Islamic ethnic groups are the one who insist here that Montenegrins are not Serbs.
Pattern is obvious...

[INAT]

The thing about Balkans threads is that no matter what the initial post is about it gets derailed. Sometimes it is derailed right off the bat sometimes it takes a few posts but there is always a 100% guarantee that it is going to go in the wrong direction. At best we start arguing about who started "it" and at worst the Mods step in and give certain members some time out or permanent vacations. I am just as guilty of this as anyone else.

Anyone looking at this from the outside must laugh their ass off and wonder what the hell is wrong with us.
We are so predictable that in the real world when foreign powers meddle in the Balkans they can always find faithful volunteers to do their bidding. Jugoslavia is one large gaping wound. The hands of
Imperialism are constantly sticking their fingers in the wound and peeling off
Any scabs so it is never able to heal properly. The level of primitivism never ceases to amaze me. It is the pinnacle of absurdity.

Montenegro and FYROM did what they did for reasons beyond "We hate Serbia" and that is that. It is a shame yes but what are we going to do?
Life goes on.

[The Balkan]

Again,what this have to do with Kosovo recognition by world superpowers Macedonia and Montenegro?

And about basic knowledge:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaut_de_Mareuil



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaut_Daniel



Perhaps Frenchmen are Albanians as well....

It has nothing to do with it, just proving to you the basic fact that in the Ottoman empire Albanians were called "Arnaut". You questioned me on that and I answered. Nothing more.

http://www.webster-dictionary.org/definition/Arnaut
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Arnaut


You seem to think this fact is debatable for some reason.

You're welcome to ask a Serbian professor or educated person ifthe aboveisn't enough. Or research it. Whatever you want. But I hope you realize this is common knowldge in the Balkans for most people, which makes me question who you are and how much you even know.

[The Balkan]

And as we see on this forum,members of these two Islamic ethnic groups are the one who insist here that Montenegrins are not Serbs.
Pattern is obvious...

Montenegro Albanians are catholic and muslims.

Ethnic composition according to the 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003) census (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census): Of the total 110,034 Muslims:

48,184 Bosniacs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniacs) (43.79%)
24,625 Muslims by nationality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims_by_nationality) (22.38%)
22,834 Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians) (20.75%)
11,710 Montenegrins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrins) (10.64%)
2,681 others (mostly Romany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people)) (2.44%)
According to the 2004 official demographic data, of the total 21,972 Roman Catholics:

8,126 Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians) (36.98%)
6,811 Croats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats) (31%)
5,000 Montenegrins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrins) (22.76%)
2,035 others (9.26%)

[Wrangel]

Montenegro Albanians are catholic and muslims.

Ethnic composition according to the 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003) census (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census): Of the total 110,034 Muslims:

48,184 Bosniacs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniacs) (43.79%)
24,625 Muslims by nationality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims_by_nationality) (22.38%)
22,834 Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians) (20.75%)
11,710 Montenegrins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrins) (10.64%)
2,681 others (mostly Romany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people)) (2.44%)

According to the 2004 official demographic data, of the total 21,972 Roman Catholics:

8,126 Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians) (36.98%)
6,811 Croats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats) (31%)
5,000 Montenegrins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrins) (22.76%)
2,035 others (9.26%)



They are predominantly Muslim,therefore Islamic.

[The Balkan]

LOL whatever you say

[KET]

They are predominantly Muslim,therefore Islamic.

Did you just say Islamic ethnic groups? I lol'd. What about me? I'm part orthodox and catholic? Does that mean I can't be Albanian by your standards?

[Lokos]

You gentlemen are veering well away from the topic - although that seems unavoidable with threads regarding the Balkans. It's sort of getting to the point where I'm in full support of the mods issuing blanket bans and suspensions for any Balkans related discussion threads. There is no theme inspiring as many utterly pointless exercises in purebred nationalism to be had on these boards.

L.

[KninGrad]

The tallest people in Europe are actually the Dutch...

All this BS about "Montenegrins" actually being different than Serbs is just that, BS. Serbs all around are incredibly tall people and if you think the height of a person determines their ethnicity then your total idiot. What I would say is a lie, is that Montenegrins are the biggest (I refer to national pride not height) Serbs. They certainly are not. The biggest and most heroic Serbs are from Šumadija.

End of story.

Just for your info more than 70% of people living in Sumadija originate from Montenegro.