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achilles
10-13-2008, 05:07 AM
Belgrade furious at neighbors
Ambassadors of Montenegro, FYROM expelled from Serbia after their governments recognize Kosovo


AFP

Serbs hold a poster showing Martti Ahtisaari with the traditional Albanian hat outside the US Embassy in Belgrade during a protest against a UN plan for the future status of Kosovo, in this February 27, 2007, photo.

By Dusan Stojanovic - The Associated Press

By Dusan Stojanovic - The Associated PressBELGRADE - Serbia expelled the ambassador of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) yesterday, reflecting its fury over the recognition of Kosovo's independence by its closest neighbors.

Montenegro's envoy had already been ordered out on Thursday.

The measures were the harshest Serbia has taken so far against 50 countries that have recognized Kosovo. The move followed announcements Thursday by Montenegro and FYROM that they will establish diplomatic ties with Kosovo - the cherished former Serbian province that declared independence in February.

The announcements by Montenegro and FYROM marked a major setback for Serbian diplomatic efforts to maintain a claim over Kosovo - the fledgling state considered by many Serbs to be the cradle of their Orthodox Christian religion and statehood.

Fears here are that if Serbia's close neighbors - and historic allies - have recognized Kosovo, many more countries will follow suit.

Serbian President Boris Tadic said earlier yesterday that the decision by Montenegro and FYROM is «deeply wrong, contrary to international law and does not contribute to regional stability and good neighborly relations.»

Montenegro and FYROM - both seeking membership in NATO and the European Union - have been under pressure from the United States and some European Union countries to recognize Kosovo's February declaration of independence from Serbia.

Serbia, Montenegro and FYROM were once all part of the same country, as all are former Yugoslav republics. Montenegro and FYROM share the same religion with Serbia and have been considered its allies. Montenegro did not split from Serbia until 2006.

«This act. .. was the result of great political pressure and time will show that the decisions that were made were wrong,» Tadic said in a statement.

Belgrade saved its strongest criticism for Montenegro.

Former nationalist Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica said Serbia should sue Montenegro in an international court.

Some nationalist lawmakers urged Serbs not to travel to Montenegro, demanded a halt in air traffic between the two countries and threatened retaliation against Montenegrins living in Serbia. Others urged confiscation of property in Serbia belonging to Montenegrin political leaders.

The announcements by Montenegro and FYROM came a day after Serbia scored a diplomatic victory at the UN

General Assembly. The assembly supported Belgrade's bid to question the legality of Kosovo independence at the UN's highest judicial body, the International Court of Justice.

Referring to that decision, Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic said Friday the Montenegrin and FYROM recognition of Kosovo was designed to «limit the effects of our victory. .. by those who suffered a defeat.» But Kosovo's Prime Minister Hashim Thaci said the decisions were not aimed at harming Serbia and would add to efforts to bring «peace and stability» to the region and help it integrate into the European Union and NATO.

In Podgorica, Montenegro's Foreign Minster Milan Rocen described Serbia's decision to expel its ambassador as «hasty.»
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_world_1_11/10/2008_101205

Regarding FYROM, Serbia is considering retracting her recognition of the country's constitutional name, i.e. "Republic of Macedonia".

Hyde
10-13-2008, 09:10 AM
Oh...how furious they are.... :roll:

achilles
10-13-2008, 09:17 AM
Oh...how furious they are.... :roll:

Which means?:roll:

Connaught Ranger
10-13-2008, 09:51 AM
And what are Serbia gonna do, call the "Kosovobusters"!!

Opps no such organization exists, silly me, gets back to sleep.

cinoeye
10-13-2008, 09:56 AM
And what are Serbia gonna do, call the "Kosovobusters"!!

Opps no such organization exists, silly me, gets back to sleep.

Sooner or later, we will do something. ;)

LineDoggie
10-13-2008, 10:29 AM
Sooner or later, we will do something. ;)


Ahhh, Yes, the threat of retaliation, worked so well for the balkans, hasn't it?

If you can calm yourself for a Moment, I'd like to know why you would want to have the Kosovars back?

They Obviously hate you....

You Obviously hate them...

You both refuse to live Peacefully together, so unless one side or the other is planning a "Final Solution" what will you accomplish?

Would not it be better to have Kosovo as a Regional Ally than as an Bitter Enemy?

Connaught Ranger
10-13-2008, 10:44 AM
Ahhh, Yes, the threat of retaliation, worked so well for the balkans, hasn't it?

If you can calm yourself for a Moment, I'd like to know why you would want to have the Kosovars back?

They Obviously hate you....

You Obviously hate them...

You both refuse to live Peacefully together, so unless one side or the other is planning a "Final Solution" what will you accomplish?

Would not it be better to have Kosovo as a Regional Ally than as an Bitter Enemy?

Your post makes perfect sense to everybody but a Serbian:p

1911-a1
10-13-2008, 10:50 AM
Ahhh, Yes, the threat of retaliation, worked so well for the balkans, hasn't it?

If you can calm yourself for a Moment, I'd like to know why you would want to have the Kosovars back?

They Obviously hate you....

You Obviously hate them...

You both refuse to live Peacefully together, so unless one side or the other is planning a "Final Solution" what will you accomplish?

Would not it be better to have Kosovo as a Regional Ally than as an Bitter Enemy?

We want OUR LAND back, we do not want the "kosovars" (albanians) back. If they would go over the border and live in ALBANIA (yes, they already have a country!!!) We would be perfectly happy. We want our land. Would the US gladly give up Texas for example if alot of Mexicans moved there and said that the land was theirs all of a sudden? No.

tea drinker
10-13-2008, 10:54 AM
......why you would want to have the Kosovars back?
They Obviously hate you.... You Obviously hate them...

You both refuse to live Peacefully together, so unless one side or the other is planning a "Final Solution" what will you accomplish?

Long term I think they want partition, and some sort of resolution for the IDP's. There are also issues regaring property rights for individuals
Obviously they are seriously put out that their (holy) land was separated in the manner it was, it not's something they will ever be happy about.
I do agree with partition and see no future for Albanians and Serbs together. Kosovo should join the mothership (Albania) as it is too small to be independant in any meaningful way, never mind rival Monaco.
This of course is only phase 1 of Greater Albania, expect more in the next decade.


......
Would not it be better to have Kosovo as a Regional Ally than as an Bitter Enemy?
They will never, ever be allies, at best distrustful neighbours. But more likely bitter enemies. There is no ground to be gained by appeasement here, so they don't try. They have to push this as far as they can peacefully, giving up is not an option here, neither is military means, even with a powerful Russia sniffing around. Although they are Slavic cousins Russia failed the Serbs big time, I don't expect that to change. (Not enough gain for Russians here)

alvarhanso
10-13-2008, 11:12 AM
Regarding FYROM, Serbia is considering retracting her recognition of the country's constitutional name, i.e. "Republic of Macedonia".

Well they should think twice about that. If they want to go to Yunanistan around Macedonia... well, it's OK than, fine by me.

LineDoggie
10-13-2008, 11:25 AM
We want OUR LAND back, we do not want the "kosovars" (albanians) back. If they would go over the border and live in ALBANIA (yes, they already have a country!!!) We would be perfectly happy. We want our land. Would the US gladly give up Texas for example if alot of Mexicans moved there and said that the land was theirs all of a sudden? No.

Ahh, the crux of the matter, you wish to ethnically cleanse Kosovo, at least you admit it. Brilliant solution, Kill or Displace those who live on their land. The problem is it isnt your land anymore, and Frankly speaking- There isnt thing one Serbia can do about that without risking another War.

Do you truly think Greece and Russia would go to war for you if you attempt to re-take Kosovo?


It's a choice, either accept it, and make the best of it by establishing relations- Military, Economic, and Political, Something along the line of the British Commonwealth style would make your region a Powerhouse to be reckoned with. Think about it, Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia-Hergovina, Croatia, etc. all working in Equal partnership would be a winner.

or

Start Ethnic Cleansing and risk World Wide Sanctions, Show the world your an Agressive Threat, possibly face intervention, and your nation continues to slide into the backwater of Civilised Nations.


Choice is Yours.......

Peris
10-13-2008, 11:45 AM
Well they should think twice about that. If they want to go to Yunanistan around Macedonia... well, it's OK than, fine by me.


Yunanistan is the Turkish word for Greece. i though in the Bulgarian fyromian language Greece us called Grcija.

Peris
10-13-2008, 11:53 AM
Ahhh, Yes, the threat of retaliation, worked so well for the balkans, hasn't it?

If you can calm yourself for a Moment, I'd like to know why you would want to have the Kosovars back?

They Obviously hate you....

You Obviously hate them...

You both refuse to live Peacefully together, so unless one side or the other is planning a "Final Solution" what will you accomplish?

Would not it be better to have Kosovo as a Regional Ally than as an Bitter Enemy?




generally speaking i find it very interesting to hear some people talking about the cruelty of Balcan nations and advising us to seek peace while themselves had traveled thousand miles to kill people in countries like Iraq and Astan.:)

LineDoggie
10-13-2008, 12:00 PM
generally speaking i find it very interesting to hear some people talking about the cruelty of Balcan nations and advising us to seek peace while themselves had traveled thousand miles to kill people in countries like Iraq and Astan.:)

Indeed, when all you have to do is go to your neighbor for that, eh?

Peris
10-13-2008, 12:05 PM
Indeed, when all you have to do is go to your neighbor for that, eh?


right,neighboring countries NEVER fight each other because they NEVER have territorial or other disputes.

LineDoggie
10-13-2008, 12:24 PM
right,neighboring countries NEVER fight each other because they NEVER have territorial or other disputes.

Well in Our Case that last time we fought our Neighbors was 1847, some 111 years ago

How about You?

achilles
10-13-2008, 12:28 PM
Well they should think twice about that. If they want to go to Yunanistan around Macedonia... well, it's OK than, fine by me.

Allow me to correct you there Makedonski. Yunanistan=Macedonia or if you like, Macedonia=Yunanistan. Your statelet will eventually be named after a composite, geographically-oriented, name like "Northern Macedonia" or "Upper Macedonia". A common name for bilateral and international usage. And we will all live next to each other like one happy balkan family. Otherwise no NATO, no European Union for you.

Plus, your statelet does not have the teeth to bully on Serbia, dont forget that. Please dont overestimate your influence in the region.

V.I.D.
10-13-2008, 12:45 PM
Regarding FYROM, Serbia is considering retracting her recognition of the country's constitutional name, i.e. "Republic of Macedonia".

It is annoying enough that they are still "reconsidering" this instead of doing it 10 minutes after FYROManians disgraced themselves. They probably won't have guts to do in it, anyway. I personally have nothing against them or Montenegrins but they need to put pressure on their own governments for such below-the-belt act, just one day after the UN supported the Serbian initiative to ICJ.

As for Linedoggie and Connaught Ranger, would you guys support possible independence of Republic of Srpska as well? Or perhaps Kurds and many others independence movements in the world? I am almost positive that you support South Ossetian and Abkhazian independence as well since you seem to be such geopolitical realists.

Thor
10-13-2008, 12:50 PM
We want OUR LAND back, we do not want the "kosovars" (albanians) back. If they would go over the border and live in ALBANIA (yes, they already have a country!!!) We would be perfectly happy. We want our land. Would the US gladly give up Texas for example if alot of Mexicans moved there and said that the land was theirs all of a sudden? No.
I'll say the same thing about my country.

What's your country of origin and where are you now?

1911-a1
10-13-2008, 12:59 PM
Ahh, the crux of the matter, you wish to ethnically cleanse Kosovo, at least you admit it.

They moved from Albania into Serbia, and then decided that they don't like us. They wanted Kosovo to be a part of albania (or at least not a part of Serbia). They did not get what they wanted, so they started doing terrorist attacks (killing police officers etc). Why the hell would we want to live with them after that? Do you really think that they just sat in their homes watching TV and we decided that we would go to war with them for no reason, and that they just happened to call themselves "Kosovo Liberation Army"? They did not like us and decided to take the land from us, why would we want to live with them after that? If they didn't like the people in Serbia they could have gone somewhere else (like albania maybe).



I'll say the same thing about my country.

What's your country of origin and where are you now?

My dad is from Serbia and my mom is half Swedish. My grandma is 100% Swedish and married a Serb and moved to Yugoslavia (she was the first swede to move there btw).

Yes, Im in sweden now, but Im moving to Serbia next summer. No, I do not live on socialbidrag etc. Oroa dig inte.

LineDoggie
10-13-2008, 01:00 PM
As for Linedoggie and Connaught Ranger, would you guys support possible independence of Republic of Srpska as well? Or perhaps Kurds and many others independence movements in the world? I am almost positive that you support South Ossetian and Abkhazian independence as well since you seem to be such geopolitical realists.


Hmmm, Interesting question, are the Bosnians Bombing the Republic of Srpska?

Is the Republic of Srpska Fighting the Bosnians Currently?

Or have they settled into a Partnership without a **** Measuring contest among them?

Ordie
10-13-2008, 01:02 PM
It does not matter if Serbia is angry. It's like a dog barking at a moving caravan that does not stop.

Sooner or later they'll all be re-joined together within the EU / NATO with no borders, a single currency under a common defense treaty.

That means open borders between Macedonia and Greece, Serbia and Kosovo, Bosnia and Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece, Croatia and Serbia, Albania and Greece.

It makes one wonder if the fighting in the 1990's was worth it?

Connaught Ranger
10-13-2008, 01:06 PM
I am all for considering any possibilities, if one thing is for sure on this planet ink lines penned on maps years ago, are subject to change, at the moment "Europe" is engaged in becoming members of the European Union, IF, Serbia want to remain outside the club, then that's their choice, BUT, they will get nowhere threatening others, those days are over for Serbia, and its time they got used to it.

Hyde
10-13-2008, 01:11 PM
Well in Our Case that last time we fought our Neighbors was 1847, some 111 years ago

How about You?

No body from outside is messing into you stuff, that's why you don't have problems. Just take a look at the world. Islamists start supporting Chechens, chechens start terrorist attacks, take hostage etc. Someone supports Kurds, they start terrorists and rebel attacks in Turkey. I can go all around the globe with these examples. You should be happy that you don'T have that kind of problems instead of being arrogant and telling people that they should just get over it.

Mordoror
10-13-2008, 01:13 PM
Concerning the issue (except the usual bullying from all the sides on this forum that are very constructive thank to all partners ...) i (and certainly many others) can understand the fact that the serbian are furious
yes it can be feeled like a betrayal from neighbourings countries, partners and people that shares common religion, almost same language, 50 years of common history and may be the same inner state hostiles

Anyway, those recognitions were done by the head of the states (not the every day man in the stree)
I am sur if you ask Montenegrin or Macedonian (not albanophone of course) they will be very unlikely supporting that move from their gov

Anyway, when you are small "statelets" as said so elegantly by someone above ( i prefere the term "weak states") pressure from international instances are difficult to counter (no EU, no exchange easiness rules, no nice diplomatic relationships, etc etc)

It's like in a school
When you are the smaller and when the bigger guy (USA) and its group of medium minions (Eu) come and says to you "go and do that or you will regret" : you go in hope you can befriend them. May be they are lying to you and they will never befriend you but you are not sure. In contrast if you don't do what they want, you can be sure they will make it regret to you ...

Ichabod
10-13-2008, 01:14 PM
Hmmm, Interesting question, are the Bosnians Bombing the Republic of Srpska?

Is the Republic of Srpska Fighting the Bosnians Currently?

Or have they settled into a Partnership without a **** Measuring contest among them?

Don't worry yourself,its still early p-)

As for FYROM and Montenegro,well the Serbians did the same thing they did in other countries.

You can't really blame them.

achilles
10-13-2008, 01:14 PM
It is annoying enough that they are still "reconsidering" this instead of doing it 10 minutes after FYROManians disgraced themselves.

I'm sure Serbia will jump onto recognizing FYROM's new constitutional name once this is agreed upon with Greece.

Nodak
10-13-2008, 01:24 PM
Sooner or later, we will do something. ;)



Serbia is probably 1 to 2 wars away from anex from any neighbouring country...i think you have proven that you cant win any war...not even does fighten in your country...



They moved from Albania into Serbia, and then decided that they don't like us. They wanted Kosovo to be a part of albania (or at least not a part of Serbia). They did not get what they wanted, so they started doing terrorist attacks (killing police officers etc). Why the hell would we want to live with them after that? Do you really think that they just sat in their homes watching TV and we decided that we would go to war with them for no reason, and that they just happened to call themselves "Kosovo Liberation Army"? They did not like us and decided to take the land from us, why would we want to live with them after that? If they didn't like the people in Serbia they could have gone somewhere else (like albania maybe).




My dad is from Serbia and my mom is half Swedish. My grandma is 100% Swedish and married a Serb and moved to Yugoslavia (she was the first swede to move there btw).

Yes, Im in sweden now, but Im moving to Serbia next summer. No, I do not live on socialbidrag etc. Oroa dig inte.



Kosovo is a part of Serbia...I agree with that,and i think that country without an language that isnt in a usage in an other country(officialy) cant be called an nation,except if that nation was forced to use that language by their rulers...

V.I.D.
10-13-2008, 01:26 PM
Hmmm, Interesting question, are the Bosnians Bombing the Republic of Srpska?

Is the Republic of Srpska Fighting the Bosnians Currently?

Or have they settled into a Partnership without a **** Measuring contest among them?

I am not sure I can follow you here. Are you implying that Serbs and Kosovo Albanians are currently fighting each other? As for the last sentence, the nationalistic sentiments among Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats in Bosnia/Herzegovina are at their highest. The situation is awfully similar prior to the war in 1992, only there are additional elements of poverty, screwed-up economy, and desperation. Bosnia will not make to EU any time soon, and I doubt it will survive in this form longer than another decade or so.

Connaught Ranger, The Serbs have paid too high of a price for having chosen a poor "leader" more than 20 years ago. Milosevic has not been in power for 8 years and has been dead for three years already. With all his guilt, still he was not the only one responsible for the chaos in the ex-Yugoslavia. Kosovo's forced quasi-independence is the worst decision the West has made since the WW2. The time will tell, and I would like to hear your opinion 20 years from now. Bosnia is already a half-dead experiment, but Kosovo is powder-keg that will once again ignite people to "settle all unsetled scores" (as locals call the post-war effects) all over Balkans and probably Europe. One cannot achieve the lasting peace by completely humiliating the opponent, you should know that.

Ordie
10-13-2008, 01:30 PM
The economic and diplomatic bear hug of the EU trumps all traditional means of influence and statecraft.

Mordoror
10-13-2008, 01:31 PM
i think you have proven that you cant win any war...not even does fighten in your country...

easy guy don't go that way
they may be didn't win the war of Kosovo (after all one vs whole NATO may spaek something to your mind) but they didn't lost it militarly speaking (their third army was fully operationnal after 2 months of bombing, not talking about the first and second army)
If it has gone on the ground it may have be painful for all the NATO partners involved

Anyway it was the gov choice to make an agreement to stop the bombing and the last hope for Milosevic to keep its power. It was a gambit and its was wrong....but it was only a political choice and a political defeat nver a military one

Nodak
10-13-2008, 01:50 PM
I was talking about wars fought before that...(and i dont want to insult somebody...that just my opinion)

BW2
10-13-2008, 01:54 PM
Hmmm, Interesting question, are the Bosnians Bombing the Republic of Srpska? Nope, but they did and a lot more Serbs were ethnically cleansed and killed than Albanians in Kosovo can ever claim to have been.


Is the Republic of Srpska Fighting the Bosnians Currently?Nope, but then again Serbia hasn't fought Albanians in Kosovo for over a decade now although some events certainly called for action on Serbia's part. Example: (March 2004 attacks from Albanians on Serb civilians)


Serbia is probably 1 to 2 wars away from anex from any neighbouring country...i think you have proven that you cant win any war...not even does fighten in your country... lol and which country is that? Sorry but Serbs are too much trouble to be ruled by a foreign power. Read over our history, trust me you'll see why. We just don't like being told what to do by another which is why we wont fit in well in the EU... never have and never will. If the Germans and Ottomans couldn't keep us in check then no, no-name loser countries surrounding today us will ever come close.

As for losing wars. Well thanks for proving how much you really know. Serbia only fought 1 war in the 90's and that was Kosovo. Call it what you will now but staving off NATO bombing for 78 days with a completely intact military and NATO's obvious fear of a ground war shows Serbia was a force to be taken seriously with. Interesting to see NATO also come to the table and ask for terms of Serbia's withdrawal from Kosovo and not her complete surrender and NATO's green light to total occupation of the country. And not to mention Kosovo's unilateral not legal deceleration of independence almost a decade later when NATO could very well have given it to the Albanian then and there.

Yes such a defeat....

And that war in side our country was rather a sticky wicket with NATO shoving its big nose in our business.... The end results of Kosovo without NATO intervention wouldn't have been much different from that of the Presevo conflict in 2001 in Serbia. Look it up if you don't know what that is.

Hyde
10-13-2008, 02:11 PM
I was talking about wars fought before that...(and i dont want to insult somebody...that just my opinion)

The only one you are insulting is yourself. So, yeah, just go on...

Ulytau
10-13-2008, 02:17 PM
As i read from the news,especially Montenegro was the seriously supportin Serbia :| ?

V.I.D.
10-13-2008, 02:46 PM
(http://www.b92.net/eng/)Injuries reported in Podgorica rally violence 13 October 2008 | 09:24 -> 20:52 | Source: B92, Beta PODGORICA -- Demonstrators in today's rally in Podgorica have clashed with police, Beta news agency is reporting.

The protesters first broke through a protective railing near the assembly building, after which police used tear gas. Firecrackers and stones were then pelted at the officers.

The scene in downtown Podgorica was that of rioting, while reporters described hearing shots, but could not specify if those came from firecrackers or tear gas canisters being fired.

Beta's journalist said that he saw one of his colleagues and one policeman injured in the streets. But emergency medical services and police refused to comment on the number of those hurt in the streets this evening.

A large number of regular and special units police officers are blocking the area, while a police helicopter is flying over the town.

Organizers were appealing to the crowd to disperse in peace as the rioting took place.

The unrest came after some 10,000 people gathered in the Montenegrin capital to demonstrate against their country's decision to recognize Kosovo Albanians' unilateral declaration of independence.

SNP ticket MP Vasilije Lalošević opened the rally by reading out a number of demands to be sent to the government, which was met with the crowd's strong cheers of support.

The demonstrators are asking that the government annuls its recognition of Kosovo by Wednesday, Oct. 15, at 11:00 CET, with parliament simultaneously announcing a referendum on the same issue.

If these demands are rejected, Lalošević said, the Montenegrin president must call early elections, to be held by the end of this year.

The protesters arrived carrying Serb flags, and banners that read, "Kosovo, NATO state of horrors", and, "It's a sin to keep quiet about Serbs' troubles".

They are also displaying photographs of the kidnapped and murdered Kosovo Serbs.

Beta said that participants in the rally were chanting insults aimed at Prime Minister Milo Đukanović, whom they accuse of treason.

The town's main streets were blocked, with Montenegrin police special units guarded government buildings and foreign embassies.

The gathering was organized by the Serb List, the Socialists People's Party, the People's Party, and the Democratic Serb Party.

The rally today was preceded by protests in several Montenegrin cities during the past several days, organized by drivers circling the streets in their cars, led by opposition leaders, which went without incidents.

Yesterday the Montenegrin police directorate chief, Veselin Veljović, said that the organizers would be responsible for the security at the rally.

He also warned that "possible inspirators of riots" must be "identified and prevented in time".

This morning, Montenegrin police arrested Simo Spasić, who heads the Association of the Families of the Kidnapped and Murdered Kosovo Serbs, but he was set free during the day.

After he left the police station where he was held, Spasić told Beta that he believes he was only released thanks to reports about his arrest and pressure from the media.

"They kept me for four and a half hours, they provoked me, and wanted to know what I thought about Serbs in Kosovo institutions, about Milo Đukanović, and Montenegrins," he said.

Spasić added that he was detained because the Montenegrin police saw the framed photographs of the missing Kosovo Serbs and Montenegrins, which he had in his car, as propaganda material.

Mordoror
10-13-2008, 02:46 PM
Montenegro was the seriously supportin Serbiaif you mean that Montenegro was a serious supporter of Serbia hum it depends (or depended) of whom was at the head of the state
During the 90s Montenegro and Serbia had very very close ties (almost like brothers)
However during the Kosovo air campaign, the west played on some monetegrins politicians to isolate serbia and promoted the idea of an independant Montenegro.
Tensions rised (at one moment it was near a new conflict as the montenegrin police trained to repel a possible serbian offensive)
This lasted not too long but the idea of an independant Montenegro made its way and the Montenegro get its independance and separation from the republic of Serbia-Montenegro.
After that it depended very much of the head of the state but let's be clear
An independant state whatever are his affinities always look for its best interest
Given the preasures of UE and USA on Montenegro (and Republic of Macedonia) given the multiple promises of economical help, political recognition and UE membership
and given the fact that those two states are highly dependant of USA and UE for their economy and hope (being true or only false promises is not the point here) they had no choice than to accept what they were told to do : recognize Kosovo

IMO its a deal with the devil as :

1- they have nothing more to negociate
2- they have a strong albanophone minority each on their soil (and that may lead to a precedent for both of tehm)
3- they are angering a powerful neighbor they need at least for economical exchange roads
4- not to speak about ties between Slavic Montenegrins-Serbians-Slavic Macedonians (for example there is a lot of mixed families at the northern Macedonian border or Serbian of macedonian origin that moved in serbia during the Jugoslav period for serving as labour or in the army)
Once again realpolitik doesn't think about breaking ties in families .................

that's sad

Ulytau
10-13-2008, 02:49 PM
Thank you for the info Mordoror it was the offical after Kosovo issue from Montenegro..

1-2 days ago finished a book about Balkans,Asia etc. i notice some people ''especially oldies'' missing Yugoslavia too..

Lokos
10-13-2008, 02:52 PM
..i think you have proven that you cant win any war...not even does fighten in your country...

I advise you to reconsider the way you approach this topic. Aside from sounding like an uneducated child, you'll also draw the attention of mods with very little patience for yahoos such as yourself.

L.

Paya
10-13-2008, 02:54 PM
Given the preasures of UE and USA on Montenegro (and Republic of Macedonia) given the multiple promises of economical help, political recognition and UE membership
and given the fact that those two states are highly dependant of USA and UE for their economy and hope (being true or only false promises is not the point here) they had no choice that to accpet what they were told to do : recognize Kosovo
Yes, that would be the official explanation of their governments. However, two days after the recognition, Oli Rehn's attache says that the recognition will not help, or in any way affect the EU accession process of the two countries. So I call bull****.

Ichabod
10-13-2008, 02:57 PM
Yes, that would be the official explanation of their governments. However, two days after the recognition, Oli Rehn's attache says that the recognition will not help, or in any way affect the EU accession process of the two countries. So I call bull****.

He can say whatever he wants now.

Mordoror
10-13-2008, 03:01 PM
However, two days after the recognition, Oli Rehn's attache says that the recognition will not help, or in any way affect the EU accession process of the two countries. So I call bull****.No i won't call it BS

listen, there is different way to read the event

either they were promised something that is now retrieved by the EU responsible (a kind of lie, would not be the first time ....)

either they thought that doing that would help them for EU accession (in that case they lied themselves)

either the pressures (as pressures have been for sure) were different (from US part for example)

If nothing of the above is true then it would have only to hurt Serbia ?? I don't think so given one more time the fact that :
It would (and have) certainly upset

-a neighbour they are dependant upon for their commercial exchanges, travel roads and economical ties (both countries are very closed and isolated and they need Serbian access very much for their products)
- a non neglictible part of their own population that have sympathy not to say family ties with Serbia

Paya
10-13-2008, 03:02 PM
He can say whatever he wants now.
Yeah, well, I'll trust him rather than any of the Balkan crooks any day.

Ichabod
10-13-2008, 03:04 PM
Yeah, well, I'll trust him rather than any of the Balkan crooks any day.

So he is a more honest crook eh p-)

achilles
10-13-2008, 03:07 PM
When you are the smaller and when the bigger guy (USA) and its group of medium minions (Eu) come and says to you "go and do that or you will regret" : you go in hope you can befriend them. May be they are lying to you and they will never befriend you but you are not sure. In contrast if you don't do what they want, you can be sure they will make it regret to you ...

This is an interesting point of view and i agree with it.

At this moment, and this is fully understandable, your country is one of the US fingers stirring up the Balkans. They command and you obey. You have no choice because you have one very serious problem and thats Nikola Gruevksi. An arrogant ultranationalist prime minister who blindly jumped on the American bandwagon, probably thinking that he found a caring and loving parent. I hope to be proven wrong in this, but you will regret this unconditional partnership. Greece did.

Alternatively, your radical prime minister could work towards establishing healthy relations with neighboring countries, primarily Greece and Serbia, and thus create a core of power at the heart of the Balkans, against million-mile-away superpowers that dont give a flying **** about your or my prosperity.

But that is way too far fetched for the mentality of your current leaders, Cervenkovski excluded. You'll soon end up erecting statues of G.W. Bush down town Skopje.

V.I.D.
10-13-2008, 03:07 PM
Yeah, well, I'll trust him rather than any of the Balkan crooks any day.

I think the old Balkan urbanite saying should be applied here: "same ****, different wrapper." I don't see why he should be trusted any more than some redneck "politician" from Radical party or the recent Nobel peace prize winner, for that matter. They're all crooks, from top to bottom.

Paya
10-13-2008, 03:08 PM
So he is a more honest crook eh p-)
Yep...........

Ichabod
10-13-2008, 03:10 PM
Yep...........

heh i think i'll agree with V.I.D. here :)

Wrangel
10-13-2008, 03:14 PM
It does not matter if Serbia is angry. It's like a dog barking at a moving caravan that does not stop.



Same as western anger and barking about Ossetia and Abkhazia...:)

Wrangel
10-13-2008, 03:22 PM
Ahhh, Yes, the threat of retaliation, worked so well for the balkans, hasn't it?



It works just fine for US,Israel,Turkey and other charming countries...:)

So why that high moral patronizing attitude?


Well in Our Case that last time we fought our Neighbors was 1847, some 111 years ago

How about You?

What is exactly "your case"?

Ordie
10-13-2008, 03:40 PM
Same as western anger and barking about Ossetia and Abkhazia...:)

In many ways yes.

The strategic relationships and issues between Russia and the United States will always trump tactical minor issues.

Sure they'll be some token action like sending warships to Georgia and such. But issues such as the state of the global economy, space exploration and terrorism will always take priority.

The Balkan
10-13-2008, 03:43 PM
I think anyone with eyes can see that conflicts, maybe not all out wars, but conflicts are coming. In several places.

Peris
10-13-2008, 05:29 PM
Well in Our Case that last time we fought our Neighbors was 1847, some 111 years ago

How about You?


1974 in Cyprus. We exchange ours for yours if you ike:)

Mordoror
10-13-2008, 05:34 PM
1974 in Cyprus. We exchange ours for yours if you ike:-)

you forget all your dogfights above the Aegean sea every year .....

V.I.D.
10-13-2008, 05:37 PM
Update on tonight's riots in Podgorica, Montenegro:

34 hurt in Podgorica violence 13 October 2008 | 09:24 -> 23:30 | Source: B92, Beta PODGORICA -- 34 persons – 23 policemen and 11 civilians – were injured tonight in Podgorica, none seriously, Beta reports.

http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/2105620548f3b2086dd6e810547842_MidColdotjpgPodgorica on Monday evening (FoNet)

The Montenegrin capital is calm after incidents that took place as an anti-government rally ended.

The protesters first broke through a protective railing near the Montenegrin assembly building, after which police used tear gas. Firecrackers and stones were then pelted at the officers.

The scene in downtown Podgorica was at one point that of rioting, while reporters described hearing shots, but could not specify if those came from firecrackers or tear gas canisters being fired.

Tanjug reported that several people were wounded, while scores were arrested. This news agency also said police used rubber bullets to disperse the crowd.

A large number of regular and special units police officers were blocking the area, while a police helicopter was flying over the town.

Organizers, four opposition parties, were appealing to the crowd to disperse in peace as the rioting took place.

Police, which said it has decided to bann a new rally called for Oct. 16, "because of tonight's destructive behavior", said it detained 28 people.

The unrest came after some 10,000 people gathered in the Montenegrin capital to demonstrate against their country's decision to recognize Kosovo Albanians' unilateral declaration of independence.

SNP ticket MP Vasilije Lalošević opened the rally by reading out a number of demands to be sent to the government, which was met with the crowd's strong cheers of support.

The demonstrators are asking that the government annuls its recognition of Kosovo by Wednesday, Oct. 15, at 11:00 CET, with parliament simultaneously announcing a referendum on the same issue.

If these demands are rejected, Lalošević said, the Montenegrin president must call early elections, to be held by the end of this year.

The protesters arrived carrying Serb flags, and banners that read, "Kosovo, NATO state of horrors", and, "It's a sin to keep quiet about Serbs' troubles".

They were also displaying photographs of the kidnapped and murdered Kosovo Serbs.

Beta said that participants in the rally were chanting insults aimed at Prime Minister Milo Đukanović, whom they accuse of treason.

The town's main streets were blocked this afternoon, with Montenegrin police special units guarding government buildings and foreign embassies.

The gathering was organized by the Serb List, the Socialists People's Party, the People's Party, and the Democratic Serb Party.

The rally today was preceded by protests in several Montenegrin cities during the past several days, organized by drivers circling the streets in their cars, led by opposition leaders, which went without incidents.

Yesterday the Montenegrin police directorate chief, Veselin Veljović, said that the organizers would be responsible for the security at the rally.

He also warned that "possible inspirators of riots" must be "identified and prevented in time".

This morning, Montenegrin police arrested Simo Spasić, who heads the Association of the Families of the Kidnapped and Murdered Kosovo Serbs, but he was set free during the day.

After he left the police station where he was held, Spasić told Beta that he believes he was only released thanks to reports about his arrest and pressure from the media.

"They kept me for four and a half hours, they provoked me, and wanted to know what I thought about Serbs in Kosovo institutions, about Milo Đukanović, and Montenegrins," he said.

Spasić added that he was detained because the Montenegrin police saw the framed photographs of the missing Kosovo Serbs and Montenegrins, which he had in his car, as propaganda material.



http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/21623804648f3a5bbdba3e653119660_extremedotjpg


http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/131440047648f3bf60af81a115382998_extremedotJPG


http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/166323116748f3a5bc6b716999219483_extremedotjpg(Beta)

http://static.b92.net/pics/gallery/2008/10/140968090548f3c2bca27e1033443301dotjpg

Peris
10-13-2008, 05:38 PM
you forget all your dogfights above the Aegean sea every year .....

these are wargames:) not official war.

Mordoror
10-13-2008, 05:42 PM
these are wargames:-) not official war.

loosing pilots and aircraft from both sides (RIP to them) is not something that i will name wargames unfortunaltely :|

Peris
10-13-2008, 06:01 PM
loosing pilots and aircraft from both sides (RIP to them) is not something that i will name wargames unfortunaltely :|

we're allies isn't it funny? so there can't be a war between allies:)

LineDoggie
10-13-2008, 06:30 PM
It works just fine for US,Israel,Turkey and other charming countries...:)

So why that high moral patronizing attitude?



What is exactly "your case"?


Reading Comprehension, try it some time....:roll:

The Balkan
10-13-2008, 06:57 PM
Update on tonight's riots in Podgorica, Montenegro:

34 hurt in Podgorica violence 13 October 2008 | 09:24 -> 23:30 | Source: B92, Beta PODGORICA -- 34 persons – 23 policemen and 11 civilians – were injured tonight in Podgorica, none seriously, Beta reports.

http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/2105620548f3b2086dd6e810547842_MidColdotjpgPodgorica on Monday evening (FoNet)

The Montenegrin capital is calm after incidents that took place as an anti-government rally ended.

The protesters first broke through a protective railing near the Montenegrin assembly building, after which police used tear gas. Firecrackers and stones were then pelted at the officers.

The scene in downtown Podgorica was at one point that of rioting, while reporters described hearing shots, but could not specify if those came from firecrackers or tear gas canisters being fired.

Tanjug reported that several people were wounded, while scores were arrested. This news agency also said police used rubber bullets to disperse the crowd.

A large number of regular and special units police officers were blocking the area, while a police helicopter was flying over the town.

Organizers, four opposition parties, were appealing to the crowd to disperse in peace as the rioting took place.

Police, which said it has decided to bann a new rally called for Oct. 16, "because of tonight's destructive behavior", said it detained 28 people.

The unrest came after some 10,000 people gathered in the Montenegrin capital to demonstrate against their country's decision to recognize Kosovo Albanians' unilateral declaration of independence.

SNP ticket MP Vasilije Lalošević opened the rally by reading out a number of demands to be sent to the government, which was met with the crowd's strong cheers of support.

The demonstrators are asking that the government annuls its recognition of Kosovo by Wednesday, Oct. 15, at 11:00 CET, with parliament simultaneously announcing a referendum on the same issue.

If these demands are rejected, Lalošević said, the Montenegrin president must call early elections, to be held by the end of this year.

The protesters arrived carrying Serb flags, and banners that read, "Kosovo, NATO state of horrors", and, "It's a sin to keep quiet about Serbs' troubles".

They were also displaying photographs of the kidnapped and murdered Kosovo Serbs.

Beta said that participants in the rally were chanting insults aimed at Prime Minister Milo Đukanović, whom they accuse of treason.

The town's main streets were blocked this afternoon, with Montenegrin police special units guarding government buildings and foreign embassies.

The gathering was organized by the Serb List, the Socialists People's Party, the People's Party, and the Democratic Serb Party.

The rally today was preceded by protests in several Montenegrin cities during the past several days, organized by drivers circling the streets in their cars, led by opposition leaders, which went without incidents.

Yesterday the Montenegrin police directorate chief, Veselin Veljović, said that the organizers would be responsible for the security at the rally.

He also warned that "possible inspirators of riots" must be "identified and prevented in time".

This morning, Montenegrin police arrested Simo Spasić, who heads the Association of the Families of the Kidnapped and Murdered Kosovo Serbs, but he was set free during the day.

After he left the police station where he was held, Spasić told Beta that he believes he was only released thanks to reports about his arrest and pressure from the media.

"They kept me for four and a half hours, they provoked me, and wanted to know what I thought about Serbs in Kosovo institutions, about Milo Đukanović, and Montenegrins," he said.

Spasić added that he was detained because the Montenegrin police saw the framed photographs of the missing Kosovo Serbs and Montenegrins, which he had in his car, as propaganda material.



http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/21623804648f3a5bbdba3e653119660_extremedotjpg


http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/131440047648f3bf60af81a115382998_extremedotJPG


http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/166323116748f3a5bc6b716999219483_extremedotjpg(Beta)

http://static.b92.net/pics/gallery/2008/10/140968090548f3c2bca27e1033443301dotjpg





Damn those rioting muslims!!! I just....ohh wait...p-)

Pejon09
10-13-2008, 06:58 PM
http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/21623804648f3a5bbdba3e653119660_extremedotjpg

Serbian flag?

V.I.D.
10-13-2008, 07:19 PM
http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/21623804648f3a5bbdba3e653119660_extremedotjpg

Serbian flag?

What is so surprising about it? Was Kosovo being forcefully taken away from Serbia or Martians?

Pejon09
10-13-2008, 07:33 PM
What is so surprising about it? Was Kosovo being forcefully taken away from Serbia or Martians?

Ah I see, Montenegrin Serbs showing support for Serbia.

Stefan850
10-13-2008, 07:37 PM
Funny thing, I just wrote a big post how I hope we should all move on somehow, someday, how we should stop being mad, wanting revenge etc etc etc, how I wish us all in the balkans good lives etc, I re-read it, saw the sentence "...I wish us, Albanians, Croats, Bosnians can all live in our countries peacefully...." and I started thinking Albanians live in Kosovo, Kosovo is part of my country, they should live peacefully but either in Serbia or Albania etc etc etc, got mad again because they, Albanians and US took a part of my country, said "***** it" and deleted that post.


That's the main problem with me and with most of us, and that's why/how will this ***** go round and round forever in our dear Balkans :|

I feel really sad because of that

Stefan850
10-13-2008, 07:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQK_7JYjE2g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6zlCqJha4A

from tonight, cant really see much

Wrangel
10-13-2008, 09:15 PM
Reading Comprehension, try it some time....:roll:

I'm impressed by sheer awesomeness of this response....rofl


It's quite laughable seeing westerners,from the countries that actively participated in Balkan war,and that created "Kosovo state" for their Albanian allies...now moralizing Serbs and other Balkanites lectures about good "neighborhood".Off course,they are all high above situation,in the clouds of moral rightcheousness.
First they created Kosovo state at the expense of Serbia,against international right,and then say how the Serbs must "accept" reality-that they created.

Off course,in case of Georgia,their ally and pet, then Ossetian/Abkhazian independence is unacceptable.

To see this moralizing self-centred psychology in action:


Well in Our Case that last time we fought our Neighbors was 1847, some 111 years ago

How about You?


He meant,off course Mexican-American war,when United States annexed Texas,California,Arizona...etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican-American_War

And after they have leveled their neighbor,grabbed its territories,they continued to wage wars on other states across the globe.


What a great moral teachers they are...:)





http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/21623804648f3a5bbdba3e653119660_extremedotjpg

Serbian flag?

Also a historic flag of Montenegrin kingdom,and Montenegro republic,before 2004:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Montenegro

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Old_Flag_of_Montenegrodotpng/120px-Old_Flag_of_Montenegrodotpng (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Old_Flag_of_Montenegrodotpng)

GREEK71AIRBORNE
10-14-2008, 05:56 AM
We Hellenes the people of Greece do feel very close with our Serbian brothers. There was huge protests in Greece (although we are in NATO) to support Serbia and its people when NATO was bombing Serbia.
I thing that the people of Serbia also feel very close to us. But unfortunattely Serbia was the frst nation that recognized FYROM with the hellenic name "macedonia"
Now Serbia say that it will cancel this recognition. I think its a big oportunity for Serbia to do that. We Hellenes are disapointed from Serbia because they didn't do it already.
Lets hope that Serbia will keep its words!
And honestly, i hope that FYROM will realise its mistake and accept a name that will satisfy everyone! We have much more thinks that unite us than a simple name and some nationalististic ambitions

Ordie
10-14-2008, 09:25 AM
And honestly, i hope that FYROM will realise its mistake and accept a name that will satisfy everyone! We have much more thinks that unite us than a simple name and some nationalististic ambitions

You're all Europeans therefore call it Europe.

Erik2a4
10-14-2008, 10:36 AM
I thought Kosovo was the traditional "homeland" of the Serbs?

The bottom line is that the balkans are just as polarized as Israel/Palestine.

The Balkan
10-14-2008, 11:33 AM
You thought wrong.

Erik2a4
10-14-2008, 01:15 PM
You thought wrong.

It was an honest question: something I remembered from Black Lambs and Grey Falcons perhaps?

However, thank you for winning my heart, mind, and support with your carefully constructed and logical argument.

Pejon09
10-14-2008, 01:18 PM
...another country Serbia should be furious at

UAE recognizes Kosovo

Tuesday, 14 October 2008

http://www.newkosovareport.com/images/stories/flags/unitedarabemiratesdotjpg

The United Arab Emirates recognized Kosovo independence today.

AFP quotes the official WAM news agency stating: "UAE declares its recognition of Kosovo as an independent and sovereign state."

UAE is the first Arab country to recognize Kosovo and 51st overall. Although with a majority Muslim population, recognitions for the newborn Kosovo by Muslim-majority countries have been slow, partly due to the stronger lobbying by the Serb diplomacy.

United Arab Emirates is the third state to recognize Kosovo since only 1/3 of the UN member states supported Serbia's resolution at the UN General Assembly last Wednesday to ask the World Court for a non-binding opinion on the declaration of Kosovo's independence. Montenegro and Macedonia recognized Kosovo on Thursday.

Several other Gulf states have stated their official support for Kosovo independence and they are expected to act at an appropriate time for the countries in question.

http://www.newkosovareport.com/200810141308/Politics/UAE-recognizes-Kosovo.html

alvarhanso
10-14-2008, 01:23 PM
We Hellenes the people of Greece do feel very close with our Serbian brothers. There was huge protests in Greece (although we are in NATO) to support Serbia and its people when NATO was bombing Serbia.
I thing that the people of Serbia also feel very close to us. But unfortunattely Serbia was the frst nation that recognized FYROM with the hellenic name "macedonia"
Now Serbia say that it will cancel this recognition. I think its a big oportunity for Serbia to do that. We Hellenes are disapointed from Serbia because they didn't do it already.
Lets hope that Serbia will keep its words!
And honestly, i hope that FYROM will realise its mistake and accept a name that will satisfy everyone! We have much more thinks that unite us than a simple name and some nationalististic ambitions

I think that the Serbs are not brain dead to do such a thing. We all remember (including the Serbs) that Hellas was one of the country's that directly supported the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999 where hundreds of people died because of that. Not to mention the material damage that was caused by the bombing. All the tanks, APC's and troops that entered Kosovo came from the Salonika port... so next time you talk about Hellas-Serbia "brotherhood" do mention those things also. Macedonia's airspace was also used and nobody here is trying to hide that.
Since you try to divert this tread to Macedonia-Hellas issues (come to think of it, i think that the tread was created to do just that... since all of your previos treads were closed, this time using Montenegro-Macedonia's recognition of Kosovo as a cover), i'll give you my 2c about the issue.
By using the "oportunity" as you so eloquently put it, to think again about the using Macedonia's constitutional name... Serbia will do more harm to itself than to Macedonia. Both countries are tied economicly more than Hellas is with Serbia. I dont think they can afford to lose a market where they place 500 milion euro worth of goods every year. That goes for Macedonia also. Our exports to Serbia are worth about 300 milion annualy.
And after all... who cares if the Hellens are dossapointed in Serbias discision... we don't.

GREEK-AIRBORNE "And honestly, i hope that FYROM will realise its mistake and accept a name that will satisfy everyone!"

Define "everyone"... please. :)
And also...how is a mistake for a country to choose it's name and nationality.... do enlighten us.

Connaught Ranger
10-14-2008, 01:26 PM
I'm impressed by sheer awesomeness of this response....rofl

It's quite laughable seeing westerners,from the countries that actively participated in Balkan war,and that created "Kosovo state" for their Albanian allies. . . now moralizing Serbs and other Balkanites lectures about good "neighborhood".Off course,they are all high above situation,in the clouds of moral rightcheousness.

First they created Kosovo state at the expense of Serbia,against international right,and then say how the Serbs must "accept" reality-that they created.

Off course,in case of Georgia,their ally and pet, then Ossetian/Abkhazian independence is unacceptable.

To see this moralizing self-centred psychology in action.



As laughable as this fact so lets not forget:-

"Greater Serbia nearly getting away with everything since the 28th June 1914,"

when Franz Ferdinand, Archduke of Austria and heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, and his wife were assassinated in Sarajevo by Gavrilo Princip, a Bosnian Serb student, duped into working for the "Black Hand," a terrorist organisation founded by disaffected Serbian Royal officers.

There just to give a balanced view to your rant.

Connaught Ranger

BW2
10-14-2008, 01:35 PM
You thought wrong.Did we ask you to speak for us?

Please connaught-ranger spare us the this history lesson again. Everyone knows Austria used the assassination as a excuse to declare war on Serbia so Austria could exercise its own greater Austria-Hungary ambitions on Serbia. Whats you argument there anyways? Every country was looking to expand its borders why should Serbia have been any different?

The Balkan
10-14-2008, 01:42 PM
Did we ask you to speak for us?

Please connaught-ranger spare us the this history lesson again. Everyone knows Austria used the assassination as a excuse to declare war on Serbia so Austria could exercise its own greater Austria-Hungary ambitions.

I was speaking for myself. You don't own historical facts just because you're part of them.

Lokos
10-14-2008, 01:52 PM
You thought wrong.

And how did he think wrong? Are you saying that Kosovo was not the epicenter of the power-base of the Nemanjic dynasty? Or that it did not become the spiritual and secular center of the evolving Serbian state from the 11th century until the 14th? Explain yourself.


"Greater Serbia nearly getting away with everything since the 28th June 1914,"

when Franz Ferdinand, Archduke of Austria and heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, and his wife were assassinated in Sarajevo by Gavrilo Princip, a Bosnian Serb student, duped into working for the "Black Hand," a terrorist organisation founded by disaffected Serbian Royal officers.

There just to give a balanced view to your rant.

If that is a balance, I would hate to witness an imbalanced accounting of historical facts, in this regard.

L.

Stefan850
10-14-2008, 01:56 PM
You thought wrong.

Hahaha. :)

Have some dignity.

The Balkan
10-14-2008, 01:58 PM
And how did he think wrong? Are you saying that Kosovo was not the epicenter of the power-base of the Nemanjic dynasty? Or that it did not become the spiritual and secular center of the evolving Serbian state from the 11th century until the 14th? Explain yourself.



If that is a balance, I would hate to witness an imbalanced accounting of historical facts, in this regard.

L.

He didn't ask was it that. He asked was it the traditional "homeland". It's not.

alvarhanso
10-14-2008, 02:00 PM
Alternatively, your radical prime minister could work towards establishing healthy relations with neighboring countries, primarily Greece and Serbia, and thus create a core of power at the heart of the Balkans, against million-mile-away superpowers that dont give a flying **** about your or my prosperity.

But that is way too far fetched for the mentality of your current leaders, Cervenkovski excluded. You'll soon end up erecting statues of G.W. Bush down town Skopje.

We do have (as one can have in the Balkans :-D) healthy relations with neighboring countries... except for one. Using the so called "name dispute" to block Macedonia's membership in NATO and the EU will certainly not make us like you.
By cementing the talks with unrealistic requests from the Hellenic side, there wont be a solution soon. Not recognizing the Macedonian minority in Northern Greece is also a burden on both sides. Unfortunately, so far, Greece has not done anything to deal with this issue... turning a blind eye to OSCE, Council of Europe and UN commissions criticism.
The Military exercise near the Macedonian border in the Florina (Lerin) region is also making matters worse.
People have been arrested, beaten and injured by the police and army because they protested against the live ammo maneuvers near their homes.
Not to mention today's arrest of 3 journalist crews from Macedonia that were there to report about the incidents. We would certainly expect more from an EU and NATO member state... unless it's an example to the other countries in the region of how to treat your own citizens (regardless of their own self proclamation).

Skopje, October 14 (MIA) - Greek police have detained journalist crews of Macedonian A1 & A2 TV and a correspondent of 'Nova Makedonija' daily in Florina region (northern Greece) on Tuesday.
The journalists were questioned for over one hour at a police station and required to present special Greek Foreign Ministry permit for photographing. Afterwards they were brought back to the venue of their interest, but banned to talk with local residents.
The journalists are visiting the region to report on developments after yesterday's incidents in Florina region. Namely one person was slightly injured and four detained in clashes between the local residents and Greek troops in this region, mostly populated with ethnic Macedonians. /lk/fd/16:07


http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=57838372&lId=2

Before talking about "good neighborly relations", check your facts.

Wrangel
10-14-2008, 02:33 PM
As laughable as this fact so lets not forget:-

"Greater Serbia nearly getting away with everything since the 28th June 1914,"

when Franz Ferdinand, Archduke of Austria and heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, and his wife were assassinated in Sarajevo by Gavrilo Princip, a Bosnian Serb student, duped into working for the "Black Hand," a terrorist organisation founded by disaffected Serbian Royal officers.

There just to give a balanced view to your rant.

Connaught Ranger

Very balanced view indeed...rofl

Today we have Greater America,that is basically policing entire planet,bombing whoever they want and now we have lecture about some assassination in the 1914.
I'm note quite sure what events of 1914 have to do with events of 2008,and US breaking of international resolution,that themselves signed.


But unfortunately most Americans barely know where is Europe,let alone history of Europe...


1.Princip was citizen of Austria-Hungary,not Serbia...thus internal problem of Austria-Hungary.

2.He was not Serbian nationalist,but Yugoslav nationalist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavrilo_Princip

3.He was not member of "Black Hand",but "Young Bosnia".
Many people and historians confuse these two.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Bosnia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narodna_Odbrana

4.One of chief conspirators to kill Franz Ferdinand was Muhammed Mehmedbasic,a Bosnian Muslim noble (Bosniak) not a Serb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_in_Sarajevo


Amongst those summoned to the Tolouse meeting was Mehmed Mehmedbašić, a carpenter by trade and son of an impoverished muslim noble from Herzegovina.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_in_Sarajevo#cite_note-10) Mehmedbašić was (here quoting Albertini paraphrasing Mehmedbašić) "eager to carry out an act of terrorism to revive the revolutionary spirit of Bosnia."Not quite a "Serbian" nationalist.

5.Black Hand was illegal and secret organization within Serbia,that is also responsible for killing of one Serbian king.

6.Opposed to Black Hand,was "White Hand":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bela_Ruka


White Hand, or Bela Ruka (Бела Рука), was a secret, unofficial military organization in the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes (and later in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia)).
White Hand was opposed to another, similar organization called Black Hand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hand), and it was formed for this purpose in 1912 by Colonel Petar Živković (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petar_%C5%BDivkovi%C4%87) (who was, along with the Black Hand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hand), involved in the 1903 coup against Aleksandar Obrenović (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandar_Obrenovi%C4%87)), with blessings from Prince Alexandar Karađorđević (later King Alexander I of Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Yugoslavia)).7.Black hand had contacts with Young Bosnia,and provided them with weapons.Serbian government found out this is and warned Austria-Hungary about possible plot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_in_Sarajevo#Serbia.27s_.22warning.22_to_Austria-Hungary


On 18 June (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_18) a telegram completely lacking in specifics ordered Serbia's Ambassador to Vienna, Jovan Jovanović, to warn Austria-Hungary that Serbia had reason to believe there was a conspiracy to assassinate Franz Ferdinand in Bosnia. On 21 June (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_21) Ambassador Jovanović met with Austro-Hungarian Finance Minister Bilinski. According to Serbian Military Attaché to Vienna, Colonel Lesanin, Ambassador Jovanović, spoke to Bilinski and "...stressed in general terms the risks the Archduke heir apparent might run from the inflamed public opinion in Bosnia and Serbia. Some serious personal misadventure might befall him. His journey might give rise to incidents and demonstrations that Serbia would deprecate but that would have fatal repercussions on Austro-Serbian relations." Jovanović came back from the meeting with Bilinski and told Lesanin that "...Bilinski showed no sign of attaching great importance to the total message and dismissed it limiting himself to remarking when saying goodbye and thanking him: 'Let us hope nothing does happen.'”[67] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_in_Sarajevo#cite_note-66) The Austro-Hungarian Finance Minister took no action based on Jovanović's vague and misleading remarks.8.Serbian government arrested most of suspected members of "Black Hand",while some have fled to Montenegro.They were released after Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia.All members of Black Hand were executed in 1917,after attempt to kill Serbian prince Alexander.

9.Austria-Hungary had plans for attacking Serbia,long before Sarajevo assassination:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Conrad_von_H%C3%B6tzendorf


The power of the Magyar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyars) elite within Austria-Hungary troubled him, as he believed it weakened and diluted what he saw as an essentially German empire. He also worried about Italian ambitions in the Balkans. However, his greatest ambition was for a pre-emptive war against Serbia in order to neutralize the threat that he believed they posed, and at the same time change the political balance within Austria-Hungary against the Magyars by incorporating more Slavs. According to Hew Strachan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hew_Strachan), "Hötzendorf first proposed preventive war against Serbia in 1906, and he did so again in 1908-9, in 1912-13, in October 1913, and May 1914: between 1 January (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_1) 1913 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1913) and 1 January (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_1) 1914 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914) he proposed a Serbian war twenty-five times."Not quite a poor and innocent victim.

10.Austrian royalty was assassinated before,by foreign nationals,yet AH never declared war on their states:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Lucheni

Luigi Lucheni (April 22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_22), 1873 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1873) – October 19 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_19), 1910 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1910)) was an Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) anarchist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist) who assassinated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination) the Austrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria) Empress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress) Elisabeth of Bavaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_of_Bavaria) (commonly referred to as Sisi) in 1898. Lucheni believed in propaganda by the deed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_by_the_deed), a philosophy advocating spreading beliefs through direct action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action).Serbia was smaller and more convenient for military invasion.And also have image of "Little Russians".Russians,as such are symbol of evil by default in west.

11.World War I started by Austrian,not Serbian declaration of war.

12.All people that were directly involved in shooting on Ferdinand were Austrian citizens.

And for the end words of Gavrilo Princip:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavrilo_Princip

"I am a Yugoslav nationalist, aiming for the unification of all Yugoslavs, and I do not care what form of state, but it must be free from Austria."
Clearly a "Greater Serbian nationalist"....:)

achilles
10-14-2008, 03:10 PM
We do have (as one can have in the Balkans :-D) healthy relations with neighboring countries... except for one. Using the so called "name dispute" to block Macedonia's membership in NATO and the EU will certainly not make us like you.

I wont lose my sleep, believe me.


By cementing the talks with unrealistic requests from the Hellenic side, there wont be a solution soon.

Unrealistic and, in fact delusional, is to believe that the blood of Alexander the Great runs through your veins and, based on that, to have territorial ambitions on what has been Hellenic for thousands and thousands of years, i.e. Macedonia.


Not recognizing the Macedonian minority in Northern Greece is also a burden on both sides.

We have demonstrated extensively in past threads that the "Macedonian minority" exists only in your twisted perception of the past and present. What exists is Northern Greece is a bunch of western Bulgars and a few Greeks who have been told that they are Macedonians. Notions like "Macedonian ethnicity" and "Macedonia minority" are just artifacts of your blatant and disgraceful propaganda.

What burdens the negotiations is your obssession with those issues.


Skopje, October 14 (MIA) - Greek police have detained journalist crews of Macedonian A1 & A2 TV and a correspondent of 'Nova Makedonija' daily in Florina region (northern Greece) on Tuesday.
The journalists were questioned for over one hour at a police station and required to present special Greek Foreign Ministry permit for photographing. Afterwards they were brought back to the venue of their interest, but banned to talk with local residents.
The journalists are visiting the region to report on developments after yesterday's incidents in Florina region. Namely one person was slightly injured and four detained in clashes between the local residents and Greek troops in this region, mostly populated with ethnic Macedonians. /lk/fd/16:07
http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=57838372&lId=2

And more invadors who are taking photographs of military installations will be arrested and thoroughly questioned if those incidents are repeated by curious cocroaches sent by your government to pull **** on us. Trust me on that one.



Before talking about "good neighborly relations", check your facts.

I cannot decide whether the use of the term "fact" by an "ethnic makedonski" is tragic of hilarious.

Mordoror
10-14-2008, 04:30 PM
Greek-Airborne, Alvarhanso and Achilles, would you please avoid to derail that thread in another Macedonia-Greece chest beating contest thread. All of you know how it's gonna finish. And given the fact that this is totaly OT on that thread, if you don't do it by wisdom, do it by respect for our serbian friends who maybe want to discuss the issue of the thread without aside pollution.

After all they are the first concerned ...

Hyde
10-14-2008, 05:15 PM
As laughable as this fact so lets not forget:-

"Greater Serbia nearly getting away with everything since the 28th June 1914,"

when Franz Ferdinand, Archduke of Austria and heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, and his wife were assassinated in Sarajevo by Gavrilo Princip, a Bosnian Serb student, duped into working for the "Black Hand," a terrorist organisation founded by disaffected Serbian Royal officers.

There just to give a balanced view to your rant.

Connaught Ranger

A-H annexed Bosnia and a Bosnian Citizen killed the Austro-Hungarian Archduke. Where is the difficult part here???

V.I.D.
10-14-2008, 05:15 PM
We Hellenes the people of Greece do feel very close with our Serbian brothers. There was huge protests in Greece (although we are in NATO) to support Serbia and its people when NATO was bombing Serbia.
I thing that the people of Serbia also feel very close to us. But unfortunattely Serbia was the frst nation that recognized FYROM with the hellenic name "macedonia"
Now Serbia say that it will cancel this recognition. I think its a big oportunity for Serbia to do that. We Hellenes are disapointed from Serbia because they didn't do it already.
Lets hope that Serbia will keep its words!
And honestly, i hope that FYROM will realise its mistake and accept a name that will satisfy everyone! We have much more thinks that unite us than a simple name and some nationalististic ambitions

The feeling is mutual, my friend. I, and overwhelming majority of other Serbs, see Greeks as true brothers and the only other friendly neighbors are Romanians (with whom Serbs never fought in their history!). The two other nations from ex-YU need to get back on the right path so there's no need to comment on them. I do have to add that unfortunately Serbian government appears rather spineless so I don't expect any stricter measures against former "brothers" (Montenegro) and "friends" (FYROM). I do believe that people in these two countries will get the governments that represent them better in the future, though. The same thing is sorely needed in Serbia as well. Then the right balance of geopolitical situation and traditional ties will take place. Right now, we have three pathetic governments and apathetic masses that don't deserve any better than what's in for them.

Peris
10-14-2008, 05:22 PM
The journalists were questioned for over one hour at a police station

.

that's what i call ,a long and grueling interrogationrofl

Mordoror
10-14-2008, 05:23 PM
Right now, we have three pathetic governments and apathetic masses that don't deserve any better than what's in for them.Unfortunately, my friend, you are 100 % true on that one .....

Mordoror
10-14-2008, 05:28 PM
that's what i call ,a long and grueling interrogationrofl
Hum Peris may be you should read my post 83. I seems you are also concerned

As i said stop derailing or trying to derail the thread by flaming post. Do it at least by respect for our serbian fellows (because it is obvious, given your sentence that doing it by wisdom .......:bash:)

GREEK71AIRBORNE
10-14-2008, 05:56 PM
Greek-Airborne, Alvarhanso and Achilles, would you please avoid to derail that thread in another Macedonia-Greece chest beating contest thread. All of you know how it's gonna finish. And given the fact that this is totaly OT on that thread, if you don't do it by wisdom, do it by respect for our serbian friends who maybe want to discuss the issue of the thread without aside pollution.

After all they are the first concerned ...

As you see my frient i didn't answer to @Mordoror although i was provoced, just for the reason you mentioned, and i will not answer anymore. You are right on that, lets do it


The feeling is mutual, my friend. I, and overwhelming majority of other Serbs, see Greeks as true brothers and the only other friendly neighbors are Romanians (with whom Serbs never fought in their history!). The two other nations from ex-YU need to get back on the right path so there's no need to comment on them. I do have to add that unfortunately Serbian government appears rather spineless so I don't expect any stricter measures against former "brothers" (Montenegro) and "friends" (FYROM). I do believe that people in these two countries will get the governments that represent them better in the future, though. The same thing is sorely needed in Serbia as well. Then the right balance of geopolitical situation and traditional ties will take place. Right now, we have three pathetic governments and apathetic masses that don't deserve any better than what's in for them.
Amen to that brother!

21stArmada
10-14-2008, 07:22 PM
The feeling is mutual, my friend. I, and overwhelming majority of other Serbs, see Greeks as true brothers and the only other friendly neighbors are Romanians (with whom Serbs never fought in their history!). The two other nations from ex-YU need to get back on the right path so there's no need to comment on them. I do have to add that unfortunately Serbian government appears rather spineless so I don't expect any stricter measures against former "brothers" (Montenegro) and "friends" (FYROM). I do believe that people in these two countries will get the governments that represent them better in the future, though. The same thing is sorely needed in Serbia as well. Then the right balance of geopolitical situation and traditional ties will take place. Right now, we have three pathetic governments and apathetic masses that don't deserve any better than what's in for them.


How naive ?! Please spare us the "appearance" of this Greek-Serbian love, for it is only the blind that would believe in it. You might tumpet it all you want but Serbia's action speak louder than any display of affection shown here:

1) the Serbian government recognized fyrom as "Republic of Macedonia" on 6 april, 1996. This recognition significantly weakened greece's negotiating position with FYROM and it was an obvious Serbian powerplay to weaken Greece's geopolitical power in the balkans. Serbs are Greek brothers?

2) During the 1999 kosovo crisis, Serbia delivered a political slap at Cyprus and Hellenism in general. Former Cypriot leader Kyprianou went to Belgrade to meet with milosevic and tried to negotiate a release for american soldiers captured by the Serbs. In theory, a win-win situation for serbia and Hellenism. In the end, Milosevic sent Kyprianou with his tail between his legs only to free the american servicemen to american activist jesse jackson.

3) If Greece is weak Serbia will easily exploit the situation to gain from it. In 1924 after the Greece's disaster in Asia Minor, Greece in turmoil, their army decimated and in chaos, Serbia DEMANDED tariff free ports in Thessaloniki. When Greece refused, in a show of forced Serbia mobilzed entire divisions and send them at the border with Greece. facing a potential disaster, Greece accepted a 99-year long agreement for a tariff free port, which was eventually nullified after WWII

This "brotherhood" act is a sham.

Getting back to the point of this thread: UAE recognized Kosovo's independence today, bringing the number up to 51.

zg18
10-14-2008, 08:09 PM
1) the Serbian government recognized fyrom as "Republic of Macedonia" on 6 april, 1996. This recognition significantly weakened greece's negotiating position with FYROM and it was an obvious Serbian powerplay to weaken Greece's geopolitical power in the balkans. Serbs are Greek brothers?

2) During the 1999 kosovo crisis, Serbia delivered a political slap at Cyprus and Hellenism in general. Former Cypriot leader Kyprianou went to Belgrade to meet with milosevic and tried to negotiate a release for american soldiers captured by the Serbs. In theory, a win-win situation for serbia and Hellenism. In the end, Milosevic sent Kyprianou with his tail between his legs only to free the american servicemen to american activist jesse jackson.

3) If Greece is weak Serbia will easily exploit the situation to gain from it. In 1924 after the Greece's disaster in Asia Minor, Greece in turmoil, their army decimated and in chaos, Serbia DEMANDED tariff free ports in Thessaloniki. When Greece refused, in a show of forced Serbia mobilzed entire divisions and send them at the border with Greece. facing a potential disaster, Greece accepted a 99-year long agreement for a tariff free port, which was eventually nullified after WWII

This "brotherhood" act is a sham.


Although i also view Balkan "brotherhood" theories as toatal c*ap ,i can understand 3rd point but 1st and 2nd point are ridiculus , ever heard NATO bombing campaign and Kosovo issue? Get some realistic positions. Serbia needed Macedonian support on Kosovo and Jesse Jackson is a known black-american activists ,who do you think is a better choice? an Cypriot president working for U.S .interests and try to score diplomatic points or black-american activist who's voice bares certain weight in a country that bombs you.Never the less ,i don't see how Serbia really hurted Greek national interests , you're text sounds a little bit paranoid.

Stefan850
10-14-2008, 08:36 PM
How naive ?! Please spare us the "appearance" of this Greek-Serbian love, for it is only the blind that would believe in it. You might tumpet it all you want but Serbia's action speak louder than any display of affection shown here:

1) the Serbian government recognized fyrom as "Republic of Macedonia" on 6 april, 1996. This recognition significantly weakened greece's negotiating position with FYROM and it was an obvious Serbian powerplay to weaken Greece's geopolitical power in the balkans. Serbs are Greek brothers?

2) During the 1999 kosovo crisis, Serbia delivered a political slap at Cyprus and Hellenism in general. Former Cypriot leader Kyprianou went to Belgrade to meet with milosevic and tried to negotiate a release for american soldiers captured by the Serbs. In theory, a win-win situation for serbia and Hellenism. In the end, Milosevic sent Kyprianou with his tail between his legs only to free the american servicemen to american activist jesse jackson.

3) If Greece is weak Serbia will easily exploit the situation to gain from it. In 1924 after the Greece's disaster in Asia Minor, Greece in turmoil, their army decimated and in chaos, Serbia DEMANDED tariff free ports in Thessaloniki. When Greece refused, in a show of forced Serbia mobilzed entire divisions and send them at the border with Greece. facing a potential disaster, Greece accepted a 99-year long agreement for a tariff free port, which was eventually nullified after WWII

This "brotherhood" act is a sham.

Getting back to the point of this thread: UAE recognized Kosovo's independence today, bringing the number up to 51.


Are you a Greek or a Serb?

INAT
10-14-2008, 09:04 PM
Ahh, the crux of the matter, you wish to ethnically cleanse Kosovo, at least you admit it. Brilliant solution, Kill or Displace those who live on their land. The problem is it isnt your land anymore, and Frankly speaking- There isnt thing one Serbia can do about that without risking another War.

Do you truly think Greece and Russia would go to war for you if you attempt to re-take Kosovo?


It's a choice, either accept it, and make the best of it by establishing relations- Military, Economic, and Political, Something along the line of the British Commonwealth style would make your region a Powerhouse to be reckoned with. Think about it, Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia-Hergovina, Croatia, etc. all working in Equal partnership would be a winner.

or

Start Ethnic Cleansing and risk World Wide Sanctions, Show the world your an Agressive Threat, possibly face intervention, and your nation continues to slide into the backwater of Civilised Nations.


Choice is Yours.......

rofl
Dude your response is laughable. Not sure if you were trying to simply get a reaction of if you really think this way.

Serbia is not Britain and the Balkans are not the Commonwealth. How you tie those together is beyond me. You even managed to throw in the phrase “civilized nations" great. Do you make a habit out of commenting on subjects you know nothing about? Most people don't that is why I asked.You even gave us a choice,Thank you.



Until the balance of power shifts Serbia will keep getting abused and punished for resisting the NWO. That is just how it is. The government of Montenegro betrayed Serbia. This will be remembered as a dark chapter in Serbian history. A very long chapter.

Lt. James Anderson
10-14-2008, 11:47 PM
lol and which country is that? Sorry but Serbs are too much trouble to be ruled by a foreign power. Read over our history, trust me you'll see why. We just don't like being told what to do by another which is why we wont fit in well in the EU... never have and never will. If the Germans and Ottomans couldn't keep us in check then no, no-name loser countries surrounding today us will ever come close.

That it ancient history. Doesn't apply to anything that's going on today. Just hold on for a second and think ... Why nobody respects Serbs any longer? Back in the day even though a small nation, the Serbs were equally respected by friend and foe. You have nobody to blame but yourselves. If you don't know how to play the game then - don't play it! *****ing won't help you any, and nobody likes it. If you don't like the rules of the game ... Well, tough luck! Too many times you had it on a plate and pissed it all away. You get no pitty from me.


As for losing wars. Well thanks for proving how much you really know. Serbia only fought 1 war in the 90's and that was Kosovo.

And Eastern Slavonia, Vukovar etc. don't count? Krajina, Bosnia? The western Serbs couldn't do sheet militarilly without Serbia's approval. Serbia even negotiated in their name and royaly screwed them over.


Call it what you will now but staving off NATO bombing for 78 days with a completely intact military and NATO's obvious fear of a ground war shows Serbia was a force to be taken seriously with. Interesting to see NATO also come to the table and ask for terms of Serbia's withdrawal from Kosovo and not her complete surrender and NATO's green light to total occupation of the country. And not to mention Kosovo's unilateral not legal deceleration of independence almost a decade later when NATO could very well have given it to the Albanian then and there.

Bombing campaign is not a war. If ground invasion really happened you could've bloodied NATO's nose at best, but you would've been slaughtered. Don't kid yourself the Milosevics forces weren't lean mean Serbian Army of WW I fame ... They were as good (or only marginally better than) their commander in chief (who got them in that situation in the first place).



Yes such a defeat....

Are you still in Kosovo? No? Then, it's a defeat! Pretty simple.


And that war in side our country was rather a sticky wicket with NATO shoving its big nose in our business.... The end results of Kosovo without NATO intervention wouldn't have been much different from that of the Presevo conflict in 2001 in Serbia. Look it up if you don't know what that is.

That doesn't really say much. There are some stuff Albanians are good at, and war isn't one of them.

I had two Albanians in my basic training platoon. Both from Kosovo (training for KLA :)). Couldn't run, couldn't ruck, couldn't shoot (5 out of 40 LOL)... Both of them got discarded. They used to brag about how gangsta they are, but that didn't help much. :)

epictetus
10-15-2008, 12:51 AM
That doesn't really say much. There are some stuff Albanians are good at, and war isn't one of them.

I had two Albanians in my basic training platoon. Both from Kosovo (training for KLA :)). Couldn't run, couldn't ruck, couldn't shoot (5 out of 40 LOL)... Both of them got discarded. They used to brag about how gangsta they are, but that didn't help much. :)

Modern Albanians aren't. This day and age technology is not on their side:). In the past though they could hold their own. Ask the Turksp-)

The Balkan
10-15-2008, 12:52 AM
Plus Bluewings, it's a bit of an exagaration to say Ottomans didn't rule you AT ALL. Besides the uprising here and there, and ocasional autonomy, they pretty much pwned everyone for over 400 years.

Lt. James Anderson
10-15-2008, 01:08 AM
Modern Albanians aren't. This day and age technology is not on their side:). In the past though they could hold their own. Ask the Turksp-)

What time period are you talking about? I've done some reading with mention of Albanians here and there. Sometimes they did OK, but a lot of times they didn't (for the most part they were very unorganized). I love reading about Turks ... Came from nothing and kicked everybody's azz for so long! :) Always learned from their mistakes and came back stonger.

epictetus
10-15-2008, 02:13 AM
What time period are you talking about? I've done some reading with mention of Albanians here and there. Sometimes they did OK, but a lot of times they didn't (for the most part they were very unorganized). I love reading about Turks ... Came from nothing and kicked everybody's azz for so long! :) Always learned from their mistakes and came back stonger.

Middle ages. Kicked Turk butt. For about quarter century. Eventually the turks won. Can't survive long against the rising tide!!! Also the Turks feared them and respected them at the same time. Put albanians in charge of their armys, made them veziers and an albanian was also king of egypt for some time. Also a turkish army with an albanian in charge went to war with the iranians several times. The turkish empire was amazing at what they accomplished. Also it is fair to note, brutal.

SrB-23Q
10-15-2008, 02:43 AM
Well in Our Case that last time we fought our Neighbors was 1847, some 111 years ago

How about You?

because no one wants to fight in your hood anymore you have to go look elsewhere..hmmm

SrB-23Q
10-15-2008, 02:58 AM
And Eastern Slavonia, Vukovar etc. don't count? Krajina, Bosnia? The western Serbs couldn't do sheet militarilly without Serbia's approval. Serbia even negotiated in their name and royaly screwed them over.


i didnt think i would have to go over this again but i guess theres still some people that are not familiar with the 90s conflict in the Balkans.

Serbia was not directly involved in Eastern Slavonia, Krajina or Bosnia.
The only war Serbia was directly involved in and where it (Serbia) mobilized its army to fight a direct war was in Kosovo.

And that war was won before NATO came in, only after the NATO bombings a deal was signed to send in a NATO peace keeping force and to let the Albanian population to return.

As for Serbia screwing the Serbs in Eastern Slavonia, Krajina and Bosnia that is true, since Serbia could of clearly done much more to help ecenomically and militarily.

The Balkan
10-15-2008, 04:30 AM
i didnt think i would have to go over this again but i guess theres still some people that are not familiar with the 90s conflict in the Balkans.

Serbia was not directly involved in Eastern Slavonia, Krajina or Bosnia.
The only war Serbia was directly involved in and where it (Serbia) mobilized its army to fight a direct war was in Kosovo.

And that war was won before NATO came in, only after the NATO bombings a deal was signed to send in a NATO peace keeping force and to let the Albanian population to return.


They were still Serbs though weren't they? They had JNA weapons, pretty much same as Serbia had in 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995. Mladic was a general in the JNA. Most of the Serbs were JNA trained. Plus tons of volunteers from Montenegro and Serbia. They started with every advantage there is. You keep saying "it wasn't Serbia!". Well ok, then Serb people period.

Plus you're making it sound as if other Serbs are *****es in comparsion. No offense to anyone but I'd bet money on a Herzegovinian Serb over a Serbian ANY DAY p-)

Tougher enviorment = tougher people

I generaly find the avarage dude from Belgrade is somewhat naive to our ways. But we probly are to them too. But that's off topic.

Paya
10-15-2008, 05:14 AM
Plus you're making it sound as if other Serbs are *****es in comparsion.
He didn't mean that, and you know it.


I generaly find the avarage dude from Belgrade is somewhat naive to our ways. But we probly are to them too. But that's off topic.
I can hold my lozovaca as any of you Herzegovina bears! p-)

SrB-23Q
10-15-2008, 07:02 AM
They were still Serbs though weren't they? They had JNA weapons, pretty much same as Serbia had in 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995. Mladic was a general in the JNA. Most of the Serbs were JNA trained. Plus tons of volunteers from Montenegro and Serbia. They started with every advantage there is. You keep saying "it wasn't Serbia!". Well ok, then Serb people period.

Plus you're making it sound as if other Serbs are *****es in comparsion. No offense to anyone but I'd bet money on a Herzegovinian Serb over a Serbian ANY DAY p-)

Tougher enviorment = tougher people

I generaly find the avarage dude from Belgrade is somewhat naive to our ways. But we probly are to them too. But that's off topic.

i ment to say Serbia as a state did not intervine with military force, the Serbs in Krajina and Bosna had limited supplies and men.
In that sance Serbia did not lose the wars as the guy above was claiming,
since Serbia did not fight those wars, but Serbs from those regions.

SrB-23Q
10-15-2008, 07:06 AM
Most of the Serbs were JNA trained.

every one from Yugoslavia was JNA trained up until 1991, including Bosniaks, Croats, Slovenians, Macedonians etc, whats your point on this one?

Hyde
10-15-2008, 07:58 AM
That it ancient history. Doesn't apply to anything that's going on today. Just hold on for a second and think ... Why nobody respects Serbs any longer? Back in the day even though a small nation, the Serbs were equally respected by friend and foe. You have nobody to blame but yourselves. If you don't know how to play the game then - don't play it! *****ing won't help you any, and nobody likes it. If you don't like the rules of the game ... Well, tough luck! Too many times you had it on a plate and pissed it all away. You get no pitty from me.

Care to elaborate?


Are you still in Kosovo? No? Then, it's a defeat! Pretty simple.There was no defeat, Serbia granted stationing of peacekeepers. Which, imho was a great failure, Peace troops ok but without withdrawal, co-existence would be the right thing to do. Later those peacekeepers basicly took over the region with the acceptance of the population, preventing the Serbs to come in while the local "government" (consisting of war-people and others), under the protection of the peacekeepers, declared independence. Where is the defeat? Nowhere, if there was a chance their "state" could survive on its own they would'ave kicked you out, but they need you to protect this "occupation". One they the Peacetroops will have to go back home, since that is pretty expensive and there are more important things to do, and then you can count the weeks and days of how long this phantasy of a state will continue to exist in the way they feel like today. They wont have any other chance than getting back to the table and agreeing on Serbia conditions. And no, i don't have anyhthing against albanians, some of my good friends are albanians.

Pejon09
10-15-2008, 08:05 AM
Interesting piece of news

Đukanović: Recognition was inevitable

15 October 2008 | 11:55 -> 13:35 | Source: B92 BELGRADE -- Montenegrin Prime Minister Milo Đukanović says that delaying recognition of Kosovo’s independence would have been “political blindness”.

Đukanović told B92 that the decision had not been conditioned but had been a matter of course.

He said that the crucial factors for Montenegro’s recognition of Kosovo’s unilateral independence had been the country’s strategic and national interests, adding that Serbia’s reaction had been expected.

"No one asked me directly to do that, but if you want to become part of Europe, you must respect their standards,” the prime minister said, adding that the move had proven to Montenegro’s citizens that he was pursuing a decisive policy.

"We had to decide whether to build partner relations with the EU and NATO, or support Serbia’s illusion,” Đukanović said.

He said that the harm caused by Montenegro’s decision to recognize Kosovo was “not dominant”, adding that Montenegro wanted good neighborly relations with Albania, Kosovo and Serbia.

The prime minister said that relations between the opposition, who were against the decision, and the government were no more jeopardized than they had been after the country’s break-up with Serbia.

"There is no question that Kosovo is lost, and on seeing that something is inevitable, even if it’s unpleasant, the serious response of state policy should be to look it in the eye,” Đukanović said.

Asked why Podgorica had not recognized Kosovo earlier, when it first declared independence, Đukanović stressed that his government had not rushed into that decision, adding that “it’s always better to admit the inevitable sooner rather than later.”

On Montenegro’s support to Serbia’s initiative before the UN General Assembly, the prime minister said that it was a way of “transferring the issue from the main to the secondary track,” adding that it begged the question of whether it was “hope or acceptance".

"Montenegro supported that initiative because its position is that each country should be entitled to defend its interests before international institutions, but I don’t see it as a triumph,” he said.

Đukanović added that he believed in the European future of the entire region, and that he was willing for further cooperation

Podgorica blames Serb leaders for riots

Montenegrin police blame Serb religious and political leaders for Monday’s violence in Podgorica.

Archbishop Amfilohije Radović and Serb List leader Andrija Mandić did nothing to stop the violence, while their statements prior to the protest incited and fuelled tensions, read a statement from the Montenegro police, adding that the turn of events at Monday’s demonstration indicated that the scenario had been prepared in advance with a view to compromising the security situation in Podgorica.

Police official Slavko Stojanović told TV Montenegro that the police had been tolerant and that they had not used all the legally-prescribed means at their disposal during the riots.

"The footage showed that the demonstration had targeted Montenegro and its institutional system, that the riots were targeted civil order, democracy, private, public and state buildings… We put a stop to the security destabilization within 45 minutes,” Stojanović said.

Serbian Orthodox Chuch Archbishop Radović denied accusations that his address had fuelled the clashes, stating that he had only been quoting Njegoš. At the same time, he accused the police of inciting the riots.

During prayers yesterday at the Serbian Orthodox Church in Podgorica, Amfilohije gave a much calmer sermon, omitting any mention of betrayal, and only repeating that it was not too late for the Montenegrin government to reconsider its decision to recognize Kosovo.

"Let us pray to God to bring our leaders to their senses, to think whether what they have done is in accordance with the true national interests of Montenegro, or if it has cast a shadow over Montenegro’s conscience,” Amfilohije said.

Democratic Party of Socialists (DPS) leader Svetozat Marović told TV Montenegro that Kosovo had been independent prior to and after Podgorica’s recognition.

Marović said that Serbia’s decision to declare Montenegro’s ambassador to Belgrade a persona non grata, while, at the same time, allowing the ambassadors of other countries that had recognized Kosovo’s independence to stay, had been hasty.

"Who had a greater bearing on Kosovo’s independence? Montenegro or America? Montenegro or the UK? Montenegro or France? The rational position of Serbia’s policy should not be to quarrel with the big boys, but build good relations,“ he said.

Opposition parties will today face Prime Minister Milo Đukanović in parliament for the first time since the protests and riots, during the one-hour prime minister’s question time.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=10&dd=15&nav_id=54247

Pejon09
10-15-2008, 02:46 PM
Montenegro police to charge 34 in Kosovo violence

The Associated Press
Published: October 15, 2008

PODGORICA, Montenegro (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/10/15/europe/EU-Montenegro-Kosovo.php#): Montenegro police say they will charge 34 people in connection with violence that erupted at an opposition rally against the recognition of Kosovo.
Police spokeswoman Tamara Popovic says the men will be charged with "violent behavior" that led to the clashes and left 37 people injured, including 26 policemen.
Popovic said Wednesday that the organizers of the Monday protest in the Montenegrin capital of Podgorica also helped provoke the rioting by giving inflammatory speeches at the rally.
The gathering by pro-Serb opposition in Montenegro was a protest against the government recognition of the independence of Kosovo — the cherished former Serbian province that declared independence in February.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/10/15/europe/EU-Montenegro-Kosovo.php

Wrangel
10-15-2008, 05:13 PM
That it ancient history. Doesn't apply to anything that's going on today. Just hold on for a second and think ... Why nobody respects Serbs any longer?

West constantly confuse itself with entire humanity.Most western states participated in war against Serbs,and its logical that your enemies,that defeated you do not respect you.
Serbs have quite good or neutral relationships with Russia,China,India,most Latin American countries,lots of African countries,which I think is most of humanity.


You have nobody to blame but yourselves. If you don't know how to play the game then - don't play it!

And "playing the game" is this:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h15/Zlayson/ekspozita_bushdotjpg

Only rules of the game are that America is making (or breaking) the rules.
Serbia accepted all agreements with US,while US have break them all.
With such hypocritical and unpredictable side,it is obvious that there are no "rules of the game".
Macedonia played everything by American rules,and got screwed big time.


You get no pitty from me.

Who exactly want your "pity"?Who wants pity from obvious enemy?You said yourself that you have trained KLA members,thus actively participated in military efforts against Serbs.

It same as German soldier says he does not "pity" the Poles.rofl


And Eastern Slavonia, Vukovar etc. don't count? Krajina, Bosnia? The western Serbs couldn't do sheet militarilly without Serbia's approval. Serbia even negotiated in their name and royaly screwed them over.

That is contradiction with claim that Serbia and Milosevic wanted "greater Serbia".If they wanted greater Serbia,then they would not screw their western brethren.Unlikely that any true nationalist does.
As a matter of fact,Milosevic imposed sanctions to Bosnian Serbs,which helped west to annihilate Croatian Serbs,and forced Bosnian Serbs to accept unitary Muslim dominated Bosnia:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B07E6D81139F93BA15751C0A960958260

This is because he wanted to be partner with West,but West screwed him over,and he got to blame for everything.


Bombing campaign is not a war. If ground invasion really happened you could've bloodied NATO's nose at best, but you would've been slaughtered.

So bombing of North Vietnam was not a war?:)
It easy for Americans to play toughness at isolated and small Serbia.
Although Serbia have "democratic" i.e "western" government,West continue to threat Serbia like Milosevic is still in power.
But in the case of Russia in Ossetia,all they can do is squeaking.


Are you still in Kosovo? No? Then, it's a defeat! Pretty simple.

Indeed it is defeat.But the joke is that Serbia is pro-western now,yet west continues to bully Serbia like they are still at war.
Its like Georgia get pro-Russian government,yet Russia continue to threat and blame pro-Russian Georgian government.

And if its that simple,why then all these disgusting moralizing to Serbs from US and their satellites?
You can just say "we crushed Serbia,because we can","we are the ultimate predator,get use to it"...at least Germans were quite honest,unlike Anglo-Saxons.


That doesn't really say much. There are some stuff Albanians are good at, and war isn't one of them.

I'm glad that at least,we can agree on something.



I had two Albanians in my basic training platoon. Both from Kosovo (training for KLA :)). Couldn't run, couldn't ruck, couldn't shoot (5 out of 40 LOL)... Both of them got discarded. They used to brag about how gangsta they are, but that didn't help much. :)

So your platoon actively participated in whole Balkan mess.Therefore I don't understand this high moral attitude for somebody that behave like he doesn't have to do anything with Balkan stuff.You are clearly side in conflict,and member of anti-Serbian side.
Its like listening to Albanian that he doesn't have pity for Serbs...
Somehow that is logical,since he fought the Serbs.

P.S

This patronizing attitude that Americans have,is very bad and pathetic imitation of British colonial era psyche.Clearly they have lot more to learn in sense of subtle hypocritical moralizing ,from their former colonial overlords.
At least Britain have same tradition,history and culture behind it...:)

P.P.S



Are you still in Kosovo? No? Then, it's a defeat! Pretty simple.

For American brain everything is simple,but in reality Serbia voluntarily withdrew its forces,and both sides accepted UN resolution 1244 , that says:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1244



The main effects of Resolution 1244 were to:


Place Kosovo under interim UN administration (currently performed by the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo, UNMIK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNMIK));
Authorize a NATO-led peacekeeping force in Kosovo (currently performed by the Kosovo Force, KFOR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Force));
Allow for the return of an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serbian personnel to maintain a presence at Serbian Patrimonial sites and key border crossings. (not implemented in practice);
Direct UNMIK to establish provisional institutions of local self-government in Kosovo (currently the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government, PISG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Institutions_of_Self-Government));
Reaffirm the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (i.e., Kosovo remains part of the FRY, to which Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia) is now the recognized successor state) and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2 of UNSCR 1244 (an annex that envisions, inter alia, a Kosovo status process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_status_process));
Require the UN to assure the safe and unimpeded return of all refugees and displaced persons to their homes in Kosovo and to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of the province;
Require that the KLA and other armed Kosovo Albanian groups be demilitarized;
Authorize the UN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN) to facilitate a political process to determine Kosovo's future status (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_status_process), its level and forms of autonomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomy) (began in late 2005 under the auspices of UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martti_Ahtisaari));

US simply screwed Serbia,and screwed Serbia 8 years after Milosevic was not in power,and with pro-EU government.

But I believe that this is just a symbolic humiliation of "Little Russians" because frustrations of US to humiliate Greater Russians.

Lt. James Anderson
10-15-2008, 06:22 PM
i didnt think i would have to go over this again but i guess theres still some people that are not familiar with the 90s conflict in the Balkans.

Serbia was not directly involved in Eastern Slavonia, Krajina or Bosnia.
The only war Serbia was directly involved in and where it (Serbia) mobilized its army to fight a direct war was in Kosovo.

Really? Even though the Easter Slavonia and Vukovar were their AO the corps of Novi Sad doesn't count? What about the other units from Belgrade and the rest of Serbia which also participated in those operations? What would've taken you to take a city the size of Fallujah? Three or four years and at least a million men? LOL

Wrangel
10-15-2008, 06:27 PM
Really? Even though the Easter Slavonia and Vukovar were their AO the corps of Novi Sad doesn't count? What about the other units from Belgrade and the rest of Serbia which also participated in those operations? What would've taken you to take a city the size of Fallujah? Three or four years and at least a million men? LOL

When battles in these regions started,Croatia was still formally part of Yugoslavia,and Federal Yugoslav army had legal right to intervene on its own territory.
These regions are on the borders with Serbia,so logically that federal troops from Serbia would participate in battle.

This was commander of Yugoslav Federal troops:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veljko_Kadijevi%C4%87


Veljko Kadijević (Cyrillic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Cyrillic_alphabet): Вељко Кадијевић) (born November 21 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_21), 1925 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1925)) is a former General of the Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_of_the_Army) in the Yugoslav People's Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_People%27s_Army). He was the Minister of Defence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minister_of_Defence) in the Yugoslav (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia) government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government) from 1988 to 1992,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veljko_Kadijevi%C4%87#cite_note-smrtYu-0) which made him de facto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto) commander of Yugoslav People's Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_People%27s_Army) during the Slovenian Independence War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenian_Independence_War) and initial stages of Croatian War of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence).

Kadijević was born in the village of Glavina Donja (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Glavina_Donja&action=edit&redlink=1) near Imotski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imotski) to a Croatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats) mother and a Serbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs) father, he always declared himself as a Yugoslav (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslavs).[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] In 1942 he joined the Yugoslav partisans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisans_%28Yugoslavia%29) and the Communist Party of Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Yugoslavia).Hardly a Serbian nationalist.

P.S


What would've taken you to take a city the size of Fallujah? Three or four years and at least a million men? LOL

Nice example of American education system in action...
I'm not sure how can you compare small Serbian army,with greatest military force on Earth.
Second of all,you are lecturing Serbs,but what exactly your army is doing in Fallujah?

Here is how long Vukovar battle lasted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vukovar


Date August 25 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_25) - November 18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_18), 1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991)

[/URL]




[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991)

Lt. James Anderson
10-15-2008, 06:49 PM
West constantly confuse itself with entire humanity.Most western states participated in war against Serbs,and its logical that your enemies,that defeated you do not respect you.
Serbs have quite good or neutral relationships with Russia,China,India,most Latin American countries,lots of African countries,which I think is most of humanity.

I'm not "the West", I'm just one individual. I'm not a part of any herd and I can think for myself. And please don't kid yourself. You get no more respect from all those other countries then you get from the West. Seems like you can't differentiate between interests and respect.


And "playing the game" is this:

Only rules of the game are that America is making (or breaking) the rules.
Serbia accepted all agreements with US,while US have break them all.
With such hypocritical and unpredictable side,it is obvious that there are no "rules of the game".
Macedonia played everything by American rules,and got screwed big time.

It's been that way since the beginning of time. The big boys make the rules or break them if that suits their interests. As far as I remember Serbia was (kind of) a part of the big boys club in WW I. That was more than a hundred years ago. Ancient history in geopolitical terms ...


Who exactly want your "pity"?Who wants pity from obvious enemy?You said yourself that you have trained KLA members,thus actively participated in military efforts against Serbs.

It same as German soldier says he does not "pity" the Poles.rofl

Reading comprehension? I was a trainee just as they were. Both of them were American citizens (one was born in the US, the other one came here as a child). The story about "training for KLA" is what they told us, not to the recruiters (which obviously would've been illegal).


That is contradiction with claim that Serbia and Milosevic wanted "greater Serbia".If they wanted greater Serbia,then they would not screw their western brethren.Unlikely that any true nationalist does.
As a matter of fact,Milosevic imposed sanctions to Bosnian Serbs,which helped west to annihilate Croatian Serbs,and forced Bosnian Serbs to accept unitary Muslim dominated
This is because he wanted to be partner with West,but West screwed him over,and he got to blame for everything.

And obviously you people still like that guy (support/supported his f-d up policies).


So bombing of North Vietnam was not a war?:)
It easy for Americans to play toughness at isolated and small Serbia.
Although Serbia have "democratic" i.e "western" government,West continue to threat Serbia like Milosevic is still in power.
But in the case of Russia in Ossetia,all they can do is squeaking.

LOL ... What are you thinking? We should've let you play war for how many years in the heart of Europe? Ten years, ... twenty? Thirty? You were given more than enough time (and patience) to take care of things, but as it turned out, that's was too much to expect of you (and now you go around blaming other for your own incompetence). Not fair? Life is not fair!


Indeed it is defeat.But the joke is that Serbia is pro-western now,yet west continues to bully Serbia like they are still at war.
Its like Georgia get pro-Russian government,yet Russia continue to threat and blame pro-Russian Georgian government.

You (and nobody else) got yourself into deep sheet and it's gonna take time until you can pull yourself out of it. Are you capable of doing that?


And if its that simple,why then all these disgusting moralizing to Serbs from US and their satellites?
You can just say "we crushed Serbia,because we can","we are the ultimate predator,get use to it"...at least Germans were quite honest,unlike Anglo-Saxons.

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not Ango-Saxon. And I'm not moralizing about anything, I'm just giving you my pov.


So your platoon actively participated in whole Balkan mess.Therefore I don't understand this high moral attitude for somebody that behave like he doesn't have to do anything with Balkan stuff.You are clearly side in conflict,and member of anti-Serbian side.
Its like listening to Albanian that he doesn't have pity for Serbs...
Somehow that is logical,since he fought the Serbs.

If anything I'm "on your side" (just check my other posts here and there). Until you realize you f-d up, and start correcting your own mistakes, the things are not gonna get better.


This patronizing attitude that Americans have,is very bad and pathetic imitation of British colonial era psyche.Clearly they have lot more to learn in sense of subtle hypocritical moralizing ,from their former colonial overlords.
At least Britain have same tradition,history and culture behind it...:)

Whatever.


For American brain everything is simple,but in reality Serbia voluntarily withdrew its forces,and both sides accepted UN resolution 1244 , that says:

Americans are no different than any other people. We have our share of dumbazzes and smart people jst like any other country in the world.


US simply screwed Serbia,and screwed Serbia 8 years after Milosevic was not in power,and with pro-EU government.

But I believe that this is just a symbolic humiliation of "Little Russians" because frustrations of US to humiliate Greater Russians.

You can believe whatever you want. And you can keep finding excuses (something you people are really good at) and complaning about "how unfair everything is". You've come a long way as a nation. From being a highly respected member of the "club" to being a laughing stock of the world (more or less). Time to look at yourself. Everybody around you can't be wrong on everything and all of the time.

Lt. James Anderson
10-15-2008, 06:52 PM
When battles in these regions started,Croatia was still formally part of Yugoslavia,and Federal Yugoslav army had legal right to intervene on its own territory.
These regions are on the borders with Serbia,so logically that federal troops from Serbia would participate in battle.

This was commander of Yugoslav Federal troops:

Hardly a Serbian nationalist.

I'm not talking about nationalistm (I don't really care) or the legallity of those operations (don't care about it either). I'm talking about military competence/incompetence, political maturity/immaturity and other good stuff ...

Wrangel
10-15-2008, 07:26 PM
I'm not "the West", I'm just one individual. I'm not a part of any herd and I can think for myself.
You clearly created collective herd stereotypes for all Serbs (as nation),while you keep individualist attitude to yourself.
So at least be consequent to your own belief,and threat others in same manner.



You get no more respect from all those other countries then you get from the West. Seems like you can't differentiate between interests and respect.

How can I get "more respect from all those countries" when I'm individual also and I can think for myself? :)


Seems like you can't differentiate between interests and respect.

I believe that "respect" is individual term,while interests are collective.
You have no respect,and then you project your own ego attitude to entire world.


It's been that way since the beginning of time. The big boys make the rules or break them if that suits their interests.
Well,then let the big boys be honest,and admit that,instead of moralizing in most disgusting and hypocritical manner.


As far as I remember Serbia was (kind of) a part of the big boys club in WW I. That was more than a hundred years ago. Ancient history in geopolitical terms ...

I agree,but if this is ancient history,then why western members like to constantly mention this?


I was a trainee just as they were. Both of them were American citizens (one was born in the US, the other one came here as a child). The story about "training for KLA" is what they told us, not to the recruiters (which obviously would've been illegal).

They were clearly part of same military as you.
http://www.alb-net.com/kla/nyc-kla2-bbcdotjpg






And obviously you people still like that guy (support/supported his f-d up policies).

I'm not "people",I'm me...:)
Remember your own double standards?

As for Serbian people,in Serbia there were massive anti Milosevic demonstrations,at the beggining of war,read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_9,_1991_protest

Also read biography of this fellow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naser_Ori%C4%87

Specially "career" part.



We should've let you play war for how many years in the heart of Europe? Ten years, ... twenty? Thirty? You were given more than enough time (and patience) to take care of things, but as it turned out, that's was too much to expect of you (and now you go around blaming other for your own incompetence). Not fair? Life is not fair!

You said that you are individual,not part of herd,but now you talking in plural? :)
I personally didn't wage any war...




but as it turned out, that's was too much to expect of you (and now you go around blaming other for your own incompetence). Not fair? Life is not fair!

If life is not fair,than admit it,instead of "justice","democracy" and "freedom" rhetoric.At least then your own state would not sound like disgusting hypocrite.



You (and nobody else) got yourself into deep sheet and it's gonna take time until you can pull yourself out of it. Are you capable of doing that?

I get myself into "deep sheet"? But I'm individual just like you....rofl

As I said,Serbia have pro-EU government from 2000,yet your own country is continue to push it back into "sheet".
Beating the corpse,is not quite good sport.

If a state surrenders,then its pointless to continue to wage war against it.



I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not Ango-Saxon. And I'm not moralizing about anything, I'm just giving you my pov.

You belong to Anglo-Saxon cultural circle,regardless of your origin.


From being a highly respected member of the "club" to being a laughing stock of the world (more or less).

This have to do with my previous statement:


As I said,Serbia have pro-EU government from 2000


And you can keep finding excuses (something you people are really good at) and complaning about "how unfair everything is".

Again collective stereotypes....

Can you name me one country in Europe,or the world that doesn't keep finding excuses and complaining how others are unfair?

After all state of Serbia officially apologized for all crimes commited in the name of Serbs,and extradited almost all former Serbian politicians to Hague.
I'm not sure that America ever sent any of their presidents to Hague,for crimes in Vietnam,Cambodia,Iraq..etc.
Oh,wait US does not recognize international tribunal in Hague...:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court


However, a number of states, including China, Russia, India and the United States, are critical of the Court and have not joined.In this forum,American members mostly do just that.
If US is firing in Pakistan territory,then its Pakistani fault.
If US army is killing civilians,then terrorists are to blame.

Etc,etc....

BW2
10-15-2008, 07:37 PM
Đukanović? lol I think he only gets a stiffy by pissing Serbia off. That narco smuggling retard worships money and nothing else, he'll get his soon enough...

Anderson wtf are you talking about respect? That doesn't exist anymore between any country.

Lt. James Anderson
10-15-2008, 07:53 PM
Wrangel, how old are you? And since when "what other members say" has anything to do with me?


Anderson wtf are you talking about respect? That doesn't exist anymore between any country.


Maybe "respect" is not the right word (althought I think it is), but there are differences how some countries are treated by others. If you appear weak, you better do as you're told (not asked!), or be ready to take punishment (lots of it). You guys appeared weak (incompetent, immature etc.) right from the start and you were treated accordingly.

Wrangel
10-15-2008, 08:10 PM
Wrangel, how old are you? And since when "what other members say" has anything to do with me?


I'm old enough.

What then deeds of previous Serbian government have to do with current Serbian government,that radically opposed Milosevic's politics?
You continue to blame entire nation,and yet refuse to accept responsibility to acts of your own nation,by reverting to individualist stance.

You are logically inconsistent with yourself.


If you appear weak, you better do as you're told (not asked!), or be ready to take punishment (lots of it).

But Milosevic did everything that Americans wanted from him.He disowned Bosnian Serbs,and imposed sanctions on them.He signed all agreements that Americans wanted,even those on Kosovo.All these agreements were broken by America:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/BosniaPeaceSigningdotjpg/800px-BosniaPeaceSigningdotjpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/BosniaPeaceSigningdotjpg)


And in your previous rant you said:


The western Serbs couldn't do sheet militarilly without Serbia's approval. Serbia even negotiated in their name and royaly screwed them over.



Serbia screwed them,because America said so to Milosevic,but he was still punished hard.

So there is great deal of logical contradictions in here:


You get no more respect from all those other countries then you get from the West

But then you said:


If you appear weak, you better do as you're told (not asked!), or be ready to take punishment (lots of it).

If somebody is totally compliant,then I don't understand how can be respected.And if someone is resisting then how can this somebody be dispised?

Then this:


You guys appeared weak (incompetent, immature etc.) right from the start and you were treated accordingly.

If Serbs appeared weak,then there was no need for West to get involved.
They could just let "strong" Albanians and Bosniaks to deal with them,with no interference...

Lt. James Anderson
10-15-2008, 08:21 PM
I don't think you understand and I'm too lazy to go into it in some more detail. The part of the answer is in your own post. Try to look at things from a different prospective (trust me, it helps). You just keep ranting how bad America is, but you don't see your own side. Balming others will get you nowhere. You are one of the youngest countries in Europe (after Kosovo?!) and you should know your place ...

Wrangel
10-15-2008, 08:40 PM
I don't think you understand and I'm too lazy to go into it in some more detail.

More likely,that you don't have any rational arguments to my points.


Try to look at things from a different prospective (trust me, it helps).

You should follow your own advice as well.



You just keep ranting how bad America is, but you don't see your own side.

But I'm blaming only America,not Albanians,Croats,Muslims nor Serbs...
You guys are real masters of Balkan tragedy.
You stomped Serbs,simply because they were strongest side in Balkan conflict,but not because you like Croats,Albanians or Bosniacs ... Of same reason that Brits supported the weakest tribes in their colonies,against strongest.
If you unite all tribes against strongest,and then even decieve strongest that you are his partner,then there would be no strong ones left,thus no real threat to your own domination on them.

Also there is irrational factor in western perception of Serbs as "little Russians",and as we know West perceive Russians negatively...better not to use stronger word.

Thus this American pushing for Kosovar independence is either about Kosovo being most important region on the planet (which I doubt),or to annoy Russians a.k.a "Big Serbs"..using reverting perception of Serbs as "little Russians".


You are one of the youngest countries in Europe (after Kosovo?!) and you should know your place ...

Kosovo is not a country,since it is not recognized by UN.


P.S

and you should know your place ...

All great empires had this same rhetoric,but all of them fade away...

Same was told by Brits to American revolutionists in 18 century,when Americans were pathetic colonists,dispised from the motherland in God forsaken wilderness.

V.I.D.
10-15-2008, 09:40 PM
Anderson, I thought you more mature than that. You did have some decent/balanced posts in the past, as far as I remember. My take on it is that Serbs committed many a mistake in 20th century, from starting the noble idea of South Slavs united in Yugoslavia (for which these nations will not be ready for at least another century or so) , to letting Tito split Serbia into Serbia proper, Vojvodina, and Kosovo, electing Milosevic and letting him stay in power until traditionally Serbian areas have been lost. The biggest mistake of all happened with not transitioning into a rich, capitalist society, when we had every advantage on our side (1989-1990). Another major mistake is losing propaganda war and severing ties with our old traditional "allies" in the West, no matter how dishonorable they acted toward Serbs in period of 1991-2008. They only lost face & honor with all the bombing/NATO campaigns, but we have lost decades of valuable time and even committed crimes that stained Serbian army's name (Srebrenica, Vukovar, crimes against civilians in BiH/Croatia/Kosovo). It is of small consolation that others did the same things to us (or worse in WWI and WWII, in particular), and certianly not a justification. On top of that, the worse has yet to come, IMO.

Lokos
10-15-2008, 10:50 PM
Anyone who believes that the military institution of the Serbian state is weak, or incompetent - relative to Serbia's socio-economic parameters - is delusional. Military institutions the world over are studying how a military operating 60-70s era technology managed to stay intact in the face of full spectrum bombing campaign conducted by an aerial armada the likes of which had never been seen before.

Not only that, but said military continued to wage a successful defensive counter-insurgency, despite the obvious obstacles. Lt. James Anderson, you say that the Serbian people have lost 'respect' in the eyes of their peers, as a result of failed conflicts in recent times. As a veteran of the Kosovo conflict, every one of my Albanian counterparts I've spoken to has had a very healthy respect for the Serbian military institution, and can testify as to its effectiveness. In the aftermath of the Kosovo conflict the VJ/VSCG continued that tradition by surgically dismembering the looming specter of insurgency in the Presevo Valley (2000/2001).

I venture that it is, in fact, you who lacks the respect, not the peers you suggest. And your basis for that disrespect is laughable.

L.

The Balkan
10-15-2008, 11:21 PM
More likely,that you don't have any rational arguments to my points.



You should follow your own advice as well.




But I'm blaming only America,not Albanians,Croats,Muslims nor Serbs...
You guys are real masters of Balkan tragedy.
You stomped Serbs,simply because they were strongest side in Balkan conflict,but not because you like Croats,Albanians or Bosniacs ... Of same reason that Brits supported the weakest tribes in their colonies,against strongest.
If you unite all tribes against strongest,and then even decieve strongest that you are his partner,then there would be no strong ones left,thus no real threat to your own domination on them.

Also there is irrational factor in western perception of Serbs as "little Russians",and as we know West perceive Russians negatively...better not to use stronger word.

Thus this American pushing for Kosovar independence is either about Kosovo being most important region on the planet (which I doubt),or to annoy Russians a.k.a "Big Serbs"..using reverting perception of Serbs as "little Russians".



Kosovo is not a country,since it is not recognized by UN.


P.S


All great empires had this same rhetoric,but all of them fade away...

Same was told by Brits to American revolutionists in 18 century,when Americans were pathetic colonists,dispised from the motherland in God forsaken wilderness.

Hillarious. Simply hillarious.

Lt. James Anderson
10-15-2008, 11:33 PM
VID, you just said it all. Too many mistakes for too long (sounds like immaturity to me). Just try to look at it from my pov. If a person makes so many mistakes for so long his life will be a disaster. When a whole nation does the same, the consequences are (probably) forever.


Anyone who believes that the military institution of the Serbian state is weak, or incompetent - relative to Serbia's socio-economic parameters - is delusional. Military institutions the world over are studying how a military operating 60-70s era technology managed to stay intact in the face of full spectrum bombing campaign conducted by an aerial armada the likes of which had never been seen before.

Maskirovka or deception are as old as the war itself. The only people who were taken by surprise were the ones who believed their own propaganda (about all powerful technology). I've seen it first hand in Afghanistan when airstrikes failed to destoy the enemy (a lot of places to hide, broken terrain, caves etc.). In my opinion that's the only part you did well on. "Counterinsurgency" operations which were conducted in Kosovo were a total mess. Yes, you managed to "defeat" KLA (at least for some time), but how hard it really was? They were nothing but common thugs and criminals.


Not only that, but said military continued to wage a successful defensive counter-insurgency, despite the obvious obstacles. Lt. James Anderson, you say that the Serbian people have lost 'respect' in the eyes of their peers, as a result of failed conflicts in recent times. As a veteran of the Kosovo conflict, every one of my Albanian counterparts I've spoken to has had a very healthy respect for the Serbian military institution, and can testify as to its effectiveness. In the aftermath of the Kosovo conflict the VJ/VSCG continued that tradition by surgically dismembering the looming specter of insurgency in the Presevo Valley (2000/2001).

As I already said, Albanians are good at some things, but war isn't one of them.


I venture that it is, in fact, you who lacks the respect, not the peers you suggest. And your basis for that disrespect is laughable.
L.

If you think I'm the one who disrespects you, then you should talk to some other members of this board, like Line dogie, Co ... something Ranger etc. And my basis for my point of view (not disrespect) is research, reading and talking to people from all sides.

INAT
10-15-2008, 11:43 PM
I don't think you understand and I'm too lazy to go into it in some more detail. The part of the answer is in your own post. Try to look at things from a different prospective (trust me, it helps). You just keep ranting how bad America is, but you don't see your own side. Balming others will get you nowhere. You are one of the youngest countries in Europe (after Kosovo?!) and you should know your place rofl...


Anderson please just stop. You threw out a bunch of bull***** bordering on hate and you got your proverbial ass handed to you. You have egg on your face and yet you keep going. You are no Balkan expert and you can't even present anything more than a hypocritical opinion. Take your own advice and know your place (as an individual of course) because you sound very foolish. What country were you referring to as being "one of the youngest countries in Europe" Serbia? If you cannot get this most basic of facts down then you have no business discussing the Balkans and telling us what is what. Your perception seems to be blinded by pompous ignorance.


If you knew anything about Serbs you would know that problems arise when foreign powers try to dictate to us what our place is. We chose to be bombed rather than have NATO occupy all of Serbia. That should tell you we value liberty more than anything else. Without liberty life is meaningless. You see things from an imperial perspective where might makes right so it blinds your view.

What is the point of you trying to lecture certain members.Do you think you are going to win some grand debate and convnce
us that you are right and we are wrong? What agenda are you trying to drive forward?

Lt. James Anderson
10-16-2008, 12:14 AM
Anderson What country were you referring to as being "one of the youngest countries in Europe" Serbia? If you cannot get this most basic of facts down then you have no business discussing the Balkans and telling us what is what. Your perception seems to be blinded by pompous ignorance.

March 3, 1992 - Bosnia and Herzegovina
January 1, 1993 - Czech Republic
January 1, 1993 - Slovakia
May 24, 1993 - Eritrea
October 1, 1994 - Palau
May 20, 2002 - East Timor
June 3, 2006 - Montenegro
June 5, 2006 - Serbia
February 17, 2008 - Kosovo

http://geography.about.com/od/lists/a/independenceday.htm


If you knew anything about Serbs you would know that problems arise when foreign powers try to dictate to us what our place is.

You understand that others got involved after you clearly showed yourself as incapable of taking care of mess in your own backyard (which, unfortunately for you, happened to be in the Europe's backyard). The patience ran out. Simple as that.


We chose to be bombed rather than have NATO occupy all of Serbia.

Or ... more like, the old Slobo chose to say "NO" in order to stay in power just a little bit longer? Then HE chose to surrender because he knew that NATO ground forces wouldn't stop in Kosovo.


That should tell you we value liberty more than anything else. Without liberty life is meaningless.

Slobo means liberty in Serbian, right? ;)


You see things from an imperial perspective where might makes right so it blinds your view.

I'm not much of an imperialist. Last time I voted it was for Ron Paul.


What is the point of you trying to lecture certain members.Do you think you are going to win some grand debate and convnce
us that you are right and we are wrong? What agenda are you trying to drive forward?

Nothing.
No.
None.

I stop here.

INAT
10-16-2008, 01:36 AM
March 3, 1992 - Bosnia and Herzegovina
January 1, 1993 - Czech Republic
January 1, 1993 - Slovakia
May 24, 1993 - Eritrea
October 1, 1994 - Palau
May 20, 2002 - East Timor
June 3, 2006 - Montenegro
June 5, 2006 - Serbia
February 17, 2008 - Kosovo

http://geography.about.com/od/lists/a/independenceday.htm



You understand that others got involved after you clearly showed yourself as incapable of taking care of mess in your own backyard (which, unfortunately for you, happened to be in the Europe's backyard). The patience ran out. Simple as that.



Or ... more like, the old Slobo chose to say "NO" in order to stay in power just a little bit longer? Then HE chose to surrender because he knew that NATO ground forces wouldn't stop in Kosovo.



Slobo means liberty in Serbian, right? ;)



I'm not much of an imperialist. Last time I voted it was for Ron Paul.



Nothing.
No.
None.

I stop here.

So what you are trying to say is that the Serbs counter-insurgency operation against Albanian terrorists inside of Serbian territory was mismanaged and that is the sole cause of why we were on the receiving end of "humanitarian bombing" nothing else?

It had nothing to do with Albanian lobbying inside the US and ultra nationalist Albanians who for the last 100 years have been working on detaching Kosmet from Serbia?
It had nothing to do with expanding and transforming NATO from a cold war defensive alliance against the USSR to a global power enforcing
US policy and giving the US major influence in European affairs?
**Alliances should be used to prevent wars; wars should not be used to
hold together alliances.**

Nothing to do with securing the strategic East-West corridors (known as the Balkans) and protecting the AMBO oil pipelines.
Nothing to do with keeping Russia out of the Balkans and (in US thinking) out of the Mediterranean?


If you knew anything about geopolitics you would know it is anything but simple. The issue of Kosovo despite what you have heard or what you think you know is complex and layered. It is something that did not start or end on February 17 2008 (it has been going for a very long time.)That was just one of those watershed events that in a historic context will be a major cause for future war and instability.I apologize if I came off as hostile. I can now see you are simply ignorant of the facts. Who can blame you, with the propaganda war and demonizationof Serbs you almost need a PhD in South Slavic studies to understand this puzzle that is the Balkans and specifically Kosovo-Metohija.I have had an obsession with trying to understand this subject for a long time and I can admit that I know very little. To go back to your comment "simple as that" Propaganda requires simplification to be effective. This simplification of the 99 war allowed the media to portray Yugoslavia rather than NATO as the aggressor. The alliance, in a complete inversion of reality, presented us with conducting a defensive war on behalf of Albanians. To understand the nature and essence of any war requires an analysis of the structures, economic foundations and international roles of the states that are involved. With Kosovo that has not been easy to do since most if not all the info that came out during the war was coming from the Pentagon or State dept.America was a participant in the war rather than a neutral power so it made objectivity impossible.

To the original topic
FYROM and Montenegro know that for small states they have to bend to the will of the EU and US if they are to survive .The pressure for them to go against Serbian interests was not as subtle as the president of Montenegro would have the world believe. Serbia has now and in the past made many miscalculations and many mstakes in regards to the relationship between her and her former countrymen. But all illusion must be cast aside if Serbia is to survive as a state.

I am not saying we are not responsible and I am not saying we are not at fault for how things were handled. But let’s look at everyone’s role not just one side. You know fair and balanced. If that is even possible.

Stefan850
10-16-2008, 03:42 AM
Biggest mistake we, Serbians made was that we where not big enough nationalist after ww I and ww II. 1/3 naive, 1/3 stupid and 1/3 arrogant, that's what destroyed us.

And I'm sure you love to show us where are place is from your point of view, right here where you put us. Big, strong "west" and there Balkan "allies"

It's ironic that we fought your probably biggest enemy's, Islamic terrorist in Bosnia.


Anyway, we will never be "in our place" if that "place" is suggested to us by our enemy, which the "west" for the last 20 years was, and obviously still is.
Why would you expect us to bow down like that? You wanna give us a carrot on a stick like you do to the others and then we start kissing the picture of your presidents and pm's?

Piss off.

The Balkan
10-16-2008, 05:07 AM
Biggest mistake we, Serbians made was that we where not big enough nationalist after ww I and ww II. 1/3 naive, 1/3 stupid and 1/3 arrogant, that's what destroyed us.

And I'm sure you love to show us where are place is from your point of view, right here where you put us. Big, strong "west" and there Balkan "allies"

It's ironic that we fought your probably biggest enemy's, Islamic terrorist in Bosnia.


Anyway, we will never be "in our place" if that "place" is suggested to us by our enemy, which the "west" for the last 20 years was, and obviously still is.
Why would you expect us to bow down like that? You wanna give us a carrot on a stick like you do to the others and then we start kissing the picture of your presidents and pm's?

Piss off.

You lay it on pretty damn thick. So we fought people who got cought up in a war and fought for land (Serbs), and you guys fought Islamic terrorists (us). How balanced.

Armija BiH was a terrorist organization and not the official army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The guys who commited the least amount of war crimes (fact), but paid the highest cost (fact), are Islamic terrorists. We didn't fight for anything Islam related but we are Islamic terrorists. We weren't fighting for our land like you, no we wanted to terrorize Christians and blow ourselves up.

Very interesting view of the whole confict you have there.

So yes, we, Bosnians, are America's biggest enemy. You know, just group us all together with the Taliban cuz our faith has the same name. And I'llgrupyou with some random maniacs who hapen to be Orthodox Christian. Is that how it works? Just wonna get it right here.


Oh and you're so right. MORE nationalism is what the Balkan needs.

Stefan850
10-16-2008, 05:25 AM
You lay it on pretty damn thick. So we fought people who got cought up in a war and fought for land (Serbs), and you guys fought Islamic terrorists (us). How balanced.

Armija BiH was a terrorist organization and not the official army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The guys who commited the least amount of war crimes (fact), but paid the highest cost (fact), are Islamic terrorists. We didn't fight for anything Islam related but we are Islamic terrorists. We weren't fighting for our land like you, no we wanted to terrorize Christians and blow ourselves up.

Very interesting view of the whole confict you have there.

So yes, we, Bosnians, are America's biggest enemy. You know, just group us all together with the Taliban cuz our faith has the same name. And I'llgrupyou with some random maniacs who hapen to be Orthodox Christian. Is that how it works? Just wonna get it right here.


Oh and you're so right. MORE nationalism is what the Balkan needs.


The guys that came from middle east to help you, the guys that fought together with you, against the Serbs.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Nawaf al-Hazmi, Khalid al-Midhar for example.
They are ISLAMIC TERRORIST, first one arrested for the 9/11 attacks, other two died in the planes and Serbs fought against them in Bosnia, that's what I said and that's the truth.
Next time ask me what I'm talking about if you are not sure, dont write an essay responding to something I didn't say in the first place.

And i didn't say we need more nationalism, again, stop doing that.

Pejon09
10-16-2008, 05:32 AM
As I already said, Albanians are good at some things, but war isn't one of them.


UCK teared apart MUP, they had to use 40.000 Soldiers to stop UCK.

(40.000 Serbian security forces against ~ 15.000 poorly armed UCK)

1911-a1
10-16-2008, 05:34 AM
uck teared apart mup, they had to use 40.000 soldiers to stop uck.

(40.000 serbian security forces against ~ 15.000 poorly armed uck)

:) .....................

Pejon09
10-16-2008, 05:56 AM
Prishtina chooses UK expert to head ICJ case
16 October 2008 | 09:20 | Source: B92


PRIŠTINA -- The authorities in Priština have chose British expert Michael Wood to head the Kosovo team at the International Court of Justice (ICJ).

http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/196815092448f6ec1b7da28514035987_MidColdotjpg
The International Court of Justice (FoNet, archive)

The Kosovo team will appear before the ICJ to debate Serbia’s motion for the court to rule on the legality of the province’s independence declaration.

Wood is one of the most experienced international experts on the collapse of the former Yugoslavia—he participated at the Dayton conference and the talks in Rambouillet.

The Kosovo government took the decision after consultations between President Fatmir Sejdiu, the assembly and international partners, said Prime Minister Hashim Thaci.

He stressed that the government was very fortunate to have a man with Wood’s renown and wealth of experience on board.

“In cooperation with us, he will form an international expert team of the highest level,“ said Thaci.

Wood, a professor of international law, was a long-time adviser to the Foreign Office, a member of international arbitrage cases, the most famous of which were Lockerbie, the building of the Israeli wall on Palestinian territory, and Ukraine’s border dispute with Romania.

He is considered to be one of the most experienced international experts on the legal aftermath of the collapse of the former Yugoslavia, as borne out by his role as an expert in Dayton and Rambouillet.

Speaking of the decision to have the ICJ address the issue of Kosovo independence, Thaci said that the Kosovo government had confidence in the court.

“In this case Kosovo’s position is exceptionally strong and we intend to prove that the declaration of Kosovo independence in no way contravened international law,“ he said.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=10&dd=16&nav_id=54264

Lokos
10-16-2008, 07:29 AM
"Counterinsurgency" operations which were conducted in Kosovo were a total mess. Yes, you managed to "defeat" KLA (at least for some time), but how hard it really was? They were nothing but common thugs and criminals.

And how were those operations a total mess, pray tell?

You ask how hard could it be to defeat the 'common thugs and criminals' of the KLA. In answer to your question, I ask another: if guerrilla/insurgent is now to be substituted with 'common thug and/or criminal', then how hard should it be for the US Army to defeat the 'common thugs and criminals' of Iraq and Afghanistan?


As I already said, Albanians are good at some things, but war isn't one of them

Utter rubbish. You have no basis for denigrating the Albanians in such a manner. Though the Albanian military institution cannot be considered unduly formidable, there are reasons for this that have little to do with the Albanian people. On an individual level, they are as 'good' at war as anyone else. And I don't care about your personal experiences with two guys in your platoon. You infer far too much.


If you think I'm the one who disrespects you, then you should talk to some other members of this board, like Line dogie, Co ... something Ranger etc.

Naivety does not bother me as much as bald faced falsehood.


Or ... more like, the old Slobo chose to say "NO" in order to stay in power just a little bit longer? Then HE chose to surrender because he knew that NATO ground forces wouldn't stop in Kosovo.

Actually, 'Slobo' said 'no' because Rambouillet allowed NATO ground forces access to the entirety of Yugoslavia, theoretically. It was an unacceptable treaty, composed so as to be unacceptable, in order to give NATO a reason to intervene. And, no, he did not 'choose to surrender' in the manner you describe. We signed a far more acceptable document, which saw NATO scale down its demands considerably. You say it's a matter of fear. I say its everyday prudence and common sense. We could not combat the entirety of NATO by ourselves. Instead, we chose to take the best deal we were going to get - a deal bought with considerable civilian, infrastructural and economic loss - rather than hold out for total defeat down the line.


You understand that others got involved after you clearly showed yourself as incapable of taking care of mess in your own backyard

... Which was?


UCK teared apart MUP, they had to use 40.000 Soldiers to stop UCK.

(40.000 Serbian security forces against ~ 15.000 poorly armed UCK)

What rubbish. When, exactly, did the KLA 'tear apart' MUP forces? Get a grip.

L.

21stArmada
10-16-2008, 07:54 AM
Anyone who believes that the military institution of the Serbian state is weak, or incompetent - relative to Serbia's socio-economic parameters - is delusional. Military institutions the world over are studying how a military operating 60-70s era technology managed to stay intact in the face of full spectrum bombing campaign conducted by an aerial armada the likes of which had never been seen before.

Surely, you are not suggesting that Serbia's army is anywhere close to the level it was before the wars? Undoubtly it is still probably efficient enough to do its job (protect the borders) but no where near the level of "strongest in the Balanks" pre-wars estimation. You must admit that the bombing campaign during the Kosovo war was very very limitied and not as effective against ground military units. It might have stayed intact because it was hidding, and not because it was fully participating (with exception to AA batteries and some aircraft at the beggining). NATO's campaign was conducted in such way that its full effects would be felt only after years had passed. The bombing of factories and military installations would eventually weaken the Serbian army, because of lack of repair facilities, parts, factories to be serviced etc. If I remember correctly there have been some very recent fatal air accidents in the Serbian Air Force, which would indicate the effects are being felt now and the army its no where near what it used to be.

This is only my opinion in the matter, I am in no way bashing the Serbian Army, it deserves enough credit for being through all those wars and still standing.

Pejon09
10-16-2008, 07:58 AM
What rubbish. When, exactly, did the KLA 'tear apart' MUP forces? Get a grip.

L.

Ok maybe tear apart was harsh using, but it had to use the army to stop them, MUP alone didnt had a chance as UCK didnt had against a real army.

Lokos
10-16-2008, 08:27 AM
MUP alone didnt had a chance as UCK didnt had against a real army.

When you say 'MUP' are you referring solely to armed civilian police? Because MUP also encompassed some of the best trained light infantry around, at the time - for example PTJ, SAJ and the Zandarmerija. You are correct in that early KLA targets (primarily police outposts and outlying stations) were not amply prepared to deal with such attacks, nor were the personnel involved properly trained or equipped for such operations. It was exceedingly difficult, for example, to concentrate enough MUP manpower to conduct a sweep of any given area. Once committed, rank and file police had serious issues with staying power in the field. The primary issue for MUP, however, was that they were tasked with keeping the roads clear, protecting civilian centers from intrusion and garrisoning strategic points. As a result, they were badly strung out. MUP could only be the arm of decision in a conflict of exceedingly low intensity. By 1998 this was no longer such a conflict.

L.

Hyde
10-16-2008, 08:37 AM
Originally Posted by Lt. James Anderson http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpostdotgif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3618895#post3618895)
I had two Albanians in my basic training platoon. Both from Kosovo (training for KLA :-))And in 2 days you'll blame Iran for training or allowing training grounds for Iraqi Insurgents and Al-Quaida fighters. Hypocritic way of thinking at it's best.

/ Nothing personal here, I just want to make you understand what we are taling about.

Hyde
10-16-2008, 01:15 PM
UCK teared apart MUP, they had to use 40.000 Soldiers to stop UCK.

(40.000 Serbian security forces against ~ 15.000 poorly armed UCK)

The UCK didnt stand a chance against the PJP ( so to say the Infantry of the Ministry of Interior), not to mention Zandarmerija, JSO or SAJ who wiped out UCK strongholds and bases with minimal casualities while being numerically outnumbered. The only thing UCK (groups of armed terrorists seizing villages and doing other insurgent and terrorist actions) did to the MUP Units was to ambush civilian Police cars with two officers armed with standard 9mm siderarms and then have a party on how great fighters they are.

Lt. James Anderson
10-16-2008, 01:43 PM
And in 2 days you'll blame Iran for training or allowing training grounds for Iraqi Insurgents and Al-Quaida fighters. Hypocritic way of thinking at it's best.

/ Nothing personal here, I just want to make you understand what we are taling about.

They were American citizens. Get it? I'm pretty sure they didn't tell their recruiter about "training for KLA".


And how were those operations a total mess, pray tell?

Instead of containing the situation and acting fast, you kept ignoring it until it completely got out of hand. And then you went all out. I remember when I was in college in 1998 we had a discussion about the developing situation in Kosovo, and you were already getting a very bad PR. I'm not saying it was justified either (most of it was BS anyways), it's just that you should've learned from the previous years. Instead of just REACTING, you should've ACTED, and acted fast (please don't tell me this is not the case).


You ask how hard could it be to defeat the 'common thugs and criminals' of the KLA. In answer to your question, I ask another: if guerrilla/insurgent is now to be substituted with 'common thug and/or criminal', then how hard should it be for the US Army to defeat the 'common thugs and criminals' of Iraq and Afghanistan?

Because they are not common thugs and criminals as opposed to the KLA. KLA was a criminal organization not a guerrilla force or a terrorist organization (kind of like drug cartels or inner-city gangs in the US). They might have used the guerilla/terrorist tactics but that still doesn't change the fact that they were just a criminal organization.


Utter rubbish. You have no basis for denigrating the Albanians in such a manner. Though the Albanian military institution cannot be considered unduly formidable, there are reasons for this that have little to do with the Albanian people. On an individual level, they are as 'good' at war as anyone else. And I don't care about your personal experiences with two guys in your platoon. You infer far too much.

I disagree. Some nations make better soldiers than others. It might be cultural, generic or something else but that's as far as my experience goes. You can have a bunch of high-speed individuals and still have a ****ty unit.


Naivety does not bother me as much as bald faced falsehood.

It has more to do with my personality type. I'm INTJ ... Google it. Interesting stuff.


Actually, 'Slobo' said 'no' because Rambouillet allowed NATO ground forces access to the entirety of Yugoslavia, theoretically. It was an unacceptable treaty, composed so as to be unacceptable, in order to give NATO a reason to intervene. And, no, he did not 'choose to surrender' in the manner you describe. We signed a far more acceptable document, which saw NATO scale down its demands considerably. You say it's a matter of fear. I say its everyday prudence and common sense. We could not combat the entirety of NATO by ourselves. Instead, we chose to take the best deal we were going to get - a deal bought with considerable civilian, infrastructural and economic loss - rather than hold out for total defeat down the line.

If you managed to get rid of old Slobo, then maybe ... just maybe, you could've kept Kosovo.


... Which was?

You didn't have a luxury of time. The Kosovo War was just the final phase of the Balkan conflict that went on for almost ten years. You look at the Kosovo conflict as separate from what happened before, but I don't. The mistakes in Bosnia and Krajina region directly affected the outcome of Kosovo.

Pejon09
10-16-2008, 02:05 PM
When you say 'MUP' are you referring solely to armed civilian police? Because MUP also encompassed some of the best trained light infantry around, at the time - for example PTJ, SAJ and the Zandarmerija. You are correct in that early KLA targets (primarily police outposts and outlying stations) were not amply prepared to deal with such attacks, nor were the personnel involved properly trained or equipped for such operations. It was exceedingly difficult, for example, to concentrate enough MUP manpower to conduct a sweep of any given area. Once committed, rank and file police had serious issues with staying power in the field. The primary issue for MUP, however, was that they were tasked with keeping the roads clear, protecting civilian centers from intrusion and garrisoning strategic points. As a result, they were badly strung out. MUP could only be the arm of decision in a conflict of exceedingly low intensity. By 1998 this was no longer such a conflict.

L.

The only time MUP and their forces could match UCK was having the army behind them. I dont know if PTJ and SAJ were there befor the army came?

Pejon09
10-16-2008, 02:08 PM
The UCK didnt stand a chance against the PJP ( so to say the Infantry of the Ministry of Interior), not to mention Zandarmerija, JSO or SAJ who wiped out UCK strongholds and bases with minimal casualities while being numerically outnumbered. The only thing UCK (groups of armed terrorists seizing villages and doing other insurgent and terrorist actions) did to the MUP Units was to ambush civilian Police cars with two officers armed with standard 9mm siderarms and then have a party on how great fighters they are.

And you would know this, did you followed their missions?

If MUP could handle UCK, why did Slobo send in 40,000 soldiers? Maybe for the civilians?

Hyde
10-16-2008, 03:25 PM
And you would know this, did you followed their missions?

If MUP could handle UCK, why did Slobo send in 40,000 soldiers? Maybe for the civilians?

Don't act a fool, the only thing the UCK encountered until Spring 98 was exactly that what I explained in the end of my post and Lokos explained it in his post in detail. Usual Civilian Police Officers with 9mm sidearms and one AK per patrol car, just like you see sheriffs, troopers, police officers and other law enforcement units in the us with one Shotgun or in germany one Mp5 per policecar, that doesn't make them "Troops" like you draw it, MUP just means Interior Ministry and is nothing special, they are not more or less than usual Police. The only thing the UCK did was ambushing and shooting at patroling police cars, in night surpressing police departments and checkpoints with fire and other than that going for civilians and taking hostages while the Police couldn't do anything about it. Not until spring of 98 did the Ministry of Interior (MUP) send additional security forces to the region to get the situation under control and that is what you are refering to. That is when the counteroffensive by Special Police Forces (PJP, Zandarmerija, JSO and SAJ) supported by heavy mechanized units from the 3rd Army started and the KLA/UCK was wiped out from most of Kosovo and everything was back under control. Now, what you are bragging about is that the KLA was so hard, they could "tear apart" civilian police duty forces in patrol cars, armed with 9mm's. Wanna think about it one more time? ;-)

The Balkan
10-16-2008, 03:53 PM
The guys that came from middle east to help you, the guys that fought together with you, against the Serbs.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Nawaf al-Hazmi, Khalid al-Midhar for example.
They are ISLAMIC TERRORIST, first one arrested for the 9/11 attacks, other two died in the planes and Serbs fought against them in Bosnia, that's what I said and that's the truth.
Next time ask me what I'm talking about if you are not sure, dont write an essay responding to something I didn't say in the first place.

And i didn't say we need more nationalism, again, stop doing that.

Then SAY Mudjahideen, don't make vague statements like "we were fighting terrorists". You were fighting us, therefore you didn't fight terrorists. The Mudzahid was tiny (few thousand at most) and basicly did nothing but commit crimes. Useless trash. Mehmed Alagic himself almost attacked their whole unit cuz they were out of control and didn't follow ANY orders from us.

Mate
10-16-2008, 04:11 PM
The UCK didnt stand a chance against the PJP ( so to say the Infantry of the Ministry of Interior), not to mention Zandarmerija, JSO or SAJ who wiped out UCK strongholds and bases with minimal casualities while being numerically outnumbered. The only thing UCK (groups of armed terrorists seizing villages and doing other insurgent and terrorist actions) did to the MUP Units was to ambush civilian Police cars with two officers armed with standard 9mm siderarms and then have a party on how great fighters they are.
I`m sorry ,but did you take part in the war?
When MUP didn`t had the support of the army they were a joke.....but when they got the help of the army things turned better for MUP.
And they weren`t armed with standard 9mm and a Ak for police cars,they even had they own APC`s,Pinzgaurers,BOV`s etc,even in the early days of the conflict.

Paya
10-16-2008, 04:26 PM
I`m sorry ,but did you take part in the war?
When MUP didn`t had the support of the army they were a joke.....but when they got the help of the army things turned better for MUP.
And they weren`t armed with standard 9mm and a Ak for police cars,they even had they own APC`s,Pinzgaurers,BOV`s etc,even in the early days of the conflict.
I've seen them in action in Presevo. True enough, they had support from a tank squad, but apart from that, they single-handedly stormed and took Oraovica. I sure was impressed.

It's PJP I'm talking about, btw. Those would be the ones with BOVs and APCs, don't know about Pinzgauers.

Pejon09
10-16-2008, 04:35 PM
Don't act a fool, the only thing the UCK encountered until Spring 98 was exactly that what I explained in the end of my post and Lokos explained it in his post in detail. Usual Civilian Police Officers with 9mm sidearms and one AK per patrol car, just like you see sheriffs, troopers, police officers and other law enforcement units in the us with one Shotgun or in germany one Mp5 per policecar, that doesn't make them "Troops" like you draw it, MUP just means Interior Ministry and is nothing special, they are not more or less than usual Police. The only thing the UCK did was ambushing and shooting at patroling police cars, in night surpressing police departments and checkpoints with fire and other than that going for civilians and taking hostages while the Police couldn't do anything about it. Not until spring of 98 did the Ministry of Interior (MUP) send additional security forces to the region to get the situation under control and that is what you are refering to. That is when the counteroffensive by Special Police Forces (PJP, Zandarmerija, JSO and SAJ) supported by heavy mechanized units from the 3rd Army started and the KLA/UCK was wiped out from most of Kosovo and everything was back under control. Now, what you are bragging about is that the KLA was so hard, they could "tear apart" civilian police duty forces in patrol cars, armed with 9mm's. Wanna think about it one more time? ;-)


I didnt understand a thing, easy boy! Answe me a question, didnt you guys had to use the army (40.000 troops, air-support, heavy artillery) to take down UCK, yes or no?

finnishcpl
10-16-2008, 04:38 PM
Most of the UCK "fighters" just hopped over to Albania and bought a rifle and then walked around the countryside in Kosovo looking cool with no training at all p-). Not all of them were ambushing police patrols at night.

Mate
10-16-2008, 04:40 PM
I've seen them in action in Presevo. True enough, they had support from a tank squad, but apart from that, they single-handedly stormed and took Oraovica. I sure was impressed.

It's PJP I'm talking about, btw. Those would be the ones with BOVs and APCs, don't know about Pinzgauers.
You mean Orahovac (Rahovec)?
If so,Rahovec is a small town,and it was the first battle in urban area,and it was popullated with serbs,which means the MUP had the support of locals,that made an easy job for the MUP to identify KLA positions.....and of course artilery support from high positions in Gradish p-).

Paya
10-16-2008, 04:47 PM
You mean Orahovac (Rahovec)?
If so,Rahovec is a small town,and it was the first battle in urban area,and it was popullated with serbs,which means the MUP had the support of locals,that made an easy job for the MUP to identify KLA positions.....and of course artilery support from high positions in Gradish p-).
Oraovica. Mainly (if not exclusively) Albanian-populated, which didn't quite matter, since most of the local residents evacuated prior to the clashes.

And yes, occupying the high ground for artillery purposes, manning trenches, and bombing the rebel positions, and ocasionaly taking mortar fire from the rebels, was pretty much all the army did, except for the 72nd and I guess the 63rd. All the rest was done by the cops.

Been there as well? Kolega? :)

Btw, only Orahovac I know of is in Kosovo.

Stefan850
10-16-2008, 04:54 PM
Then SAY Mudjahideen, don't make vague statements like "we were fighting terrorists". You were fighting us, therefore you didn't fight terrorists. The Mudzahid was tiny (few thousand at most) and basicly did nothing but commit crimes. Useless trash. Mehmed Alagic himself almost attacked their whole unit cuz they were out of control and didn't follow ANY orders from us.


You might choose to believe them I'm lying, that's your choice but I'm not. My uncle, born and raised in Sarajevo, told me himself he fought Mujahedeens, so they did participate in battles on your side against Serbs. How many of them were there I don't know, I can only guess so I'm not going to, but my statement was not vague, Serbs fought Islamic terrorist in Bosnia, you can switch it up as much as you want and tell stories how your comrades are just a tiny bunch of bad people and didn't do nothing but commit crimes and you actually came close to fight against them, yea distance yourselfs as much as you can.

Well I'm sorry, if I knew they only killed Serbians during your war against Serbs and didn't do nothing more I wouldn't have put it that way. :roll:
They must have been pretty useless for you, eating your food and doing nothing.


So much irony on this forum when it comes to the Serbs. All of you put us in the same basket but then jump to distance yourself from anything bad on your side. Bosnians had no connection to the Islamic Terrorist, not only that, they came close to fight that "Useless trash" that was there fighting side by side with them. Albanians are all poor, nice, kind people that had to get to arms to fight off against the brutal Serbs, and later, when NATO came and saved them from killing more then 100 000 Albanians that the evil Serbs have already killed, like US president at that time lied they had to open up those Serbs, take there organs out and sell them to feed there poor, nice, kind territory but we Serbs have to say "Yes, we know we did crimes, yes we apologize for everything, we THE SERBS did, Yes dear ser, we should know our place, we apologize again, we love USA, bring the picture of both obama and mccain and shove it up our asses, we can also be your friends".

Just a few days ago Ahtisaari, the nobel prize winner for peace said, Serbs as a society are guilty, not only out leaders, the guy that was in charge of securing peace in Kosovo. Yes we have it bad now, actually we are weak and *****ed but it's ok, we did it ourselfs, between being whores of the west (or anyone els) and having it easy and this, I chose this anytime of day and I am proud of my choice.


p.s. funny how I put it that instead of being whores we chose to be *****ed :)

ah, you catch my drift

Mate
10-16-2008, 05:21 PM
Oraovica. Mainly (if not exclusively) Albanian-populated, which didn't quite matter, since most of the local residents evacuated prior to the clashes.

And yes, occupying the high ground for artillery purposes, manning trenches, and bombing the rebel positions, and ocasionaly taking mortar fire from the rebels, was pretty much all the army did, except for the 72nd and I guess the 63rd. All the rest was done by the cops.

Been there as well? Kolega? :)

Btw, only Orahovac I know of is in Kosovo.
Yeah in oposite side (KLA):).I was only during the Kosovo conflict 98-99.
:cantbeli:You mean Oraovica in Presheva Valley?

Pejon09
10-16-2008, 05:23 PM
I think Stefan is getting emotional, plz dont or they will lock the thread.

Ichabod
10-16-2008, 05:24 PM
Yeah in oposite side (KLA):).

You fought in KLA?

Hyde
10-16-2008, 06:10 PM
I`m sorry ,but did you take part in the war?
When MUP didn`t had the support of the army they were a joke.....but when they got the help of the army things turned better for MUP.
And they weren`t armed with standard 9mm and a Ak for police cars,they even had they own APC`s,Pinzgaurers,BOV`s etc,even in the early days of the conflict.

You don't even know what you are saying by "MUP". It's like "MUP MUP MUP no support.... joke MUPMUPMUP"... man, can you read? Before March-Spring-Something 1998 the only Ministry of Interior (MUP for you obsessed guy) "Troops" in Kosovo were regular Police Officers with some AKs and a Bulletproof vest here and there and a few pjp and reinforcement guys which could get sent there quick enough, apart from that, no major Interior Ministry (mup again) forces were present yet, they started arriving in the end of 97 and early 98 and the offensive against the kla started in spring 98, from then on you could see columns of uparmored blue BOVs, TAM's and UAZ's, the APCs and Hummers were part of JSO (http://naoruzanje.paracin.co.yu/ags17-3dotjpg), they are Ministry of Interior troops, but i highly doubt kla guys "teared these guys apart".
I already explained it to you twice, the thing you are bragging about is simple Police Officer ambushing and killing, not clashing with Interior Ministry Security Forces. The Interior Ministry (MUP for you) Troops (JSO,SAJ,,Gendarmerie,PJP) tore the kla apart, not the other way around. The only thing the kla managed to mess effectivily with were uniformed patrol officers and the unsupported and hardly organized support troops of the mup (in the beginning of the war) and civilians, and that is what you are celebrating. I don't feel like argueing over this for the weekend, I have other things to do. ;)



Most of the UCK "fighters" just hopped over to Albania and bought a rifle and then walked around the countryside in Kosovo looking cool with no training at all p-). Not all of them were ambushing police patrols at night.

There were rather a lot cases of villages arming themselves/armed men hiding in villages and shooting at any police car and patrol that came near. That lead to the situation that control was lost over most of kosovo outside of the cities in the beginning. Then, especially when Artillery and Heavy Caliber (Mortar, T-55, Praga) support was avialable this also lead to destroyed villages, since every police patrol and later heavy police patrol which came under fire either returned it by their escorting vehicles or called for support from the army, which in return shelled the insurgent nest (in most cases a village) with artillery-, tank- or Praga-fire.

epictetus
10-16-2008, 06:19 PM
I disagree. Some nations make better soldiers than others. It might be cultural, generic or something else but that's as far as my experience goes. You can have a bunch of high-speed individuals and still have a ****ty unit.




May want to read some history before making such statements. You were impressed with the Otoman Empire. Might want to check what they though of the "arnaut". Plus the french get bashed plenty and yet they have a long military tradition. Genetic profiling is crap.

The Balkan
10-16-2008, 06:54 PM
Lt. James Anderson I'm curious. Who are these people then that you view as "better at war"?

Vorian
10-16-2008, 09:19 PM
Lt. James Anderson I'm curious. Who are these people then that you view as "better at war"?


Take a bunch of peace loving soft Europeans, isolate them in a mountain without modern luxuries, leave them there for acentury and their grandchildren will be as warlike as the medieval Mongols.

Harsh environments breed harsh people. It's not genetics.

The Balkan
10-17-2008, 01:04 AM
Take a bunch of peace loving soft Europeans, isolate them in a mountain without modern luxuries, leave them there for acentury and their grandchildren will be as warlike as the medieval Mongols.

Harsh environments breed harsh people. It's not genetics.

Exactly. Therefore his claims make no sense. The disadvantage Balkan people have always had is lack of organization and technology. But we've always been superb warriors and tough, hard people who can endure.

V.I.D.
10-17-2008, 01:08 AM
It has more to do with my personality type. I'm INTJ ... Google it. Interesting stuff.




You didn't have a luxury of time. The Kosovo War was just the final phase of the Balkan conflict that went on for almost ten years. You look at the Kosovo conflict as separate from what happened before, but I don't. The mistakes in Bosnia and Krajina region directly affected the outcome of Kosovo.

That's rather interesting, I'm a true INTJ type myself (everytime I took the test). This explains for the direct, no-nonsense attitude in (y)our writing. I agree with your last paragraph quoted here, but the Kosovo War is far from the final phase of Balkan tragedy, there's plenty more to come, whether in 5, 10 or 20 years from now (my bet would be ~ 10-15 years from now).

Also, as an INTJ you should be quite capable of getting the greater picture of the context here. Balkan people are very proud, and still some are even nutter/more proud than others (both Serbs and Albanians fall in this category, as opposed to Slovenes, for example). Hence, Serbs had a long line of heavy mistakes (poor understanding of shifts in world politics, too much pride to admit when being wrong, etc.) and sheer bad luck to be caught in the middle of geopolitical changes on the global scene (being identified as "little Russians" as Wrangel pointed out, collapse of Russia and American unipolar world of Brzezinski's ideology).

However, you have to understand that what is pride/heroism for an average American ("we're the strongest army in the world, best technology, kick-ass overwhelming power", etc.) is almost the point of despise for Serbs (who got used to fight underrated, underfed, and with **** of the equipment for centuries, esp. under Ottoman rule - today). For Serbs, heroism and point of pride is to fight the stronger enemy, such as Kosovo battle 1389 and even latest NATO conflict, where the willing sacrifice/bravery is greater than the fear of dying or losing the battle against seemingly stronger opponent.

One needs to understand this idea before applying Western/rational thinking to the mythical, epic-loving nation (though other Balkan nations are relatively similar as well). Just think about resistance to Germans in WWII in the West of Europe (Denmark , Norway, Holland, Belgium, even France or Czech Republic) and compare it to Serbs, Greeks, or Poles, anti-fascist Croats, Bosnian muslims, etc. USA once was capable of understanding that spirit, no matter how irational that may sound to a fellow INTJ today. p-)

RWR
10-17-2008, 01:54 AM
Exactly. Therefore his claims make no sense. The disadvantage Balkan people have always had is lack of organization and technology. But we've always been superb warriors and tough, hard people who can endure.

Tragedy of that is that most of the time we were superb warriors and tough, hard people who can endure fighting for other nations and states who possessed organization and technology.

:|

The Balkan
10-17-2008, 02:00 AM
Can't blame the big boys for taking advantage of us when we're so easily divided and aimed at any unsuspecing victim :D

Paya
10-17-2008, 02:09 AM
You mean Oraovica in Presheva Valley?
Yep........

V.I.D.
10-18-2008, 02:58 AM
B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-blackdotgif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-blackdotgif Politics (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-blackdotgif Politics http://static.b92.net/images/transdotgif Đukanović: Recognition was inevitable 15 October 2008 | 11:55 -> 13:35 | Source: B92 BELGRADE -- Montenegrin Prime Minister Milo Đukanović says that delaying recognition of Kosovo’s independence would have been “political blindness”.

http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/19105535748f5d52b0388c992325048_MidColdotjpgMilo Đukanović (FoNet, archive)

Đukanović told B92 that the decision had not been conditioned but had been a matter of course.

He said that the crucial factors for Montenegro’s recognition of Kosovo’s unilateral independence had been the country’s strategic and national interests, adding that Serbia’s reaction had been expected.

"No one asked me directly to do that, but if you want to become part of Europe, you must respect their standards,” the prime minister said, adding that the move had proven to Montenegro’s citizens that he was pursuing a decisive policy.

"We had to decide whether to build partner relations with the EU and NATO, or support Serbia’s illusion,” Đukanović said.

He said that the harm caused by Montenegro’s decision to recognize Kosovo was “not dominant”, adding that Montenegro wanted good neighborly relations with Albania, Kosovo and Serbia.

The prime minister said that relations between the opposition, who were against the decision, and the government were no more jeopardized than they had been after the country’s break-up with Serbia.

"There is no question that Kosovo is lost, and on seeing that something is inevitable, even if it’s unpleasant, the serious response of state policy should be to look it in the eye,” Đukanović said.

Asked why Podgorica had not recognized Kosovo earlier, when it first declared independence, Đukanović stressed that his government had not rushed into that decision, adding that “it’s always better to admit the inevitable sooner rather than later.”

On Montenegro’s support to Serbia’s initiative before the UN General Assembly, the prime minister said that it was a way of “transferring the issue from the main to the secondary track,” adding that it begged the question of whether it was “hope or acceptance".

"Montenegro supported that initiative because its position is that each country should be entitled to defend its interests before international institutions, but I don’t see it as a triumph,” he said.

Đukanović added that he believed in the European future of the entire region, and that he was willing for further cooperation

Podgorica blames Serb leaders for riots

Montenegrin police blame Serb religious and political leaders for Monday’s violence in Podgorica.

Archbishop Amfilohije Radović and Serb List leader Andrija Mandić did nothing to stop the violence, while their statements prior to the protest incited and fuelled tensions, read a statement from the Montenegro police, adding that the turn of events at Monday’s demonstration indicated that the scenario had been prepared in advance with a view to compromising the security situation in Podgorica.

Police official Slavko Stojanović told TV Montenegro that the police had been tolerant and that they had not used all the legally-prescribed means at their disposal during the riots.

"The footage showed that the demonstration had targeted Montenegro and its institutional system, that the riots were targeted civil order, democracy, private, public and state buildings… We put a stop to the security destabilization within 45 minutes,” Stojanović said.

Serbian Orthodox Chuch Archbishop Radović denied accusations that his address had fuelled the clashes, stating that he had only been quoting Njegoš. At the same time, he accused the police of inciting the riots.

During prayers yesterday at the Serbian Orthodox Church in Podgorica, Amfilohije gave a much calmer sermon, omitting any mention of betrayal, and only repeating that it was not too late for the Montenegrin government to reconsider its decision to recognize Kosovo.

"Let us pray to God to bring our leaders to their senses, to think whether what they have done is in accordance with the true national interests of Montenegro, or if it has cast a shadow over Montenegro’s conscience,” Amfilohije said.

Democratic Party of Socialists (DPS) leader Svetozat Marović told TV Montenegro that Kosovo had been independent prior to and after Podgorica’s recognition.

Marović said that Serbia’s decision to declare Montenegro’s ambassador to Belgrade a persona non grata, while, at the same time, allowing the ambassadors of other countries that had recognized Kosovo’s independence to stay, had been hasty.

"Who had a greater bearing on Kosovo’s independence? Montenegro or America? Montenegro or the UK? Montenegro or France? The rational position of Serbia’s policy should not be to quarrel with the big boys, but build good relations,“ he said.

Opposition parties will today face Prime Minister Milo Đukanović in parliament for the first time since the protests and riots, during the one-hour prime minister’s question time.


It should have ended by these wise words from Mr. Djukanovic: "Who had a greater bearing on cigarette smugling in SE Europe? Montenegro or America? Montenegro or the UK? Montenegro or France? Who's gotten legal immunity just a couple of days ago from the court in Bari for exchange of Montenegro's recognition? The rational position of Serbia's policy should not be to quarrel with the big boys, but to sue my sorry ass and bring up all of the illegal acts I've commited since I got in power to general public's attention."