Bosnian Serbs Warned over Secession

[The Balkan]

13 October 2008 Sarajevo _ International envoys have expressed concern ahead of an extraordinary session of the Bosnian Serb parliament, where lawmakers will discuss 'all' measures to guarantee the existence of their 'mini-state'.

The session of the National Assembly of the Republika Srpska, scheduled to start on Monday afternoon, will see Bosnian Serb leaders discuss “all legal and political means, including the right to a referendum” for the protection of their entity.

The session was triggered by the speeches which Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) member of country’s tripartite presidency, Haris Silajdzic, gave before the United National General Assembly on September 24, and before the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe on September 30.

Although Silajdzic appeared before the UN and European Union leaders in his official capacity as a representative of Bosnia, he gave his personal speeches since the three members of the presidency were previously unable to agree on joint statements. In the speeches – believed to be timed, if not motivated, by the October 5 local elections – Silajdzic blasted Republika Srpska for genocide committed during the war.

On Friday, Silajdzic openly clashed with the EU Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn, demanding from him in the middle of a press conference, to identify Bosnian Serbs as the main threat to stability in the country.

Silajdzic’s statements infuriated Bosnian Serb leaders, who called for their National Assembly to discuss the new low in political relations and adopt a declaration that would identify measures – including a referendum on independence – for the protection of Republika Srpska.

Western officials reacted swiftly and aggressively.

“Let me be crystal clear. Bosnia and Herzegovina is a sovereign state; the Republika Srpska is not. Bosnia and Herzegovina’s territorial integrity is settled. These are facts of international law and Bosnia’s constitution,” said the United States ambassador Charles English in his statement on Friday evening.

“My government will not tolerate any challenges, whether they be internal or external, to Bosnia’s sovereignty or territorial integrity.”

“The political leadership in Bosnia and Herzegovina must stop at once for ever with unilateral threats and challenges to the Dayton Peace Agreement and focus instead on European priorities,” said Bosnia’s top international envoy, High representative Miroslav Lajcak in his statement.

“Republika Srpska is an entity, not a state within a state, full stop.”

“Any concrete act contrary to that will be considered crossing the red line.”

Yet the situation deteriorated further after another outburst by the Republika Srpska Premier Milorad Dodik. In an interview for the entity's television network on Friday night, Dodik said he had a prepared scenario for the proclamation of independence of Republika Srpska, in case Bosnia’s High Representative attempts to remove him from office.

Dodik said he would be ready to “wrestle around” with any tanks and other forces which the EU peacekeeping forces and NATO would pull out on the streets; he would then hold an assembly session of the street and declare all Bosnia and Herzegovina laws “null and void.” At the end, Dodik said he would “lead Republika Srpska into independence.”

“If somebody wants to play, let’s play,” Dodik challenged.

This statement prompted a new volley of criticism from both international and other local officials.

Vice-president of the ruling Bosniak Party of democratic Action, Bakir Izetbegovic, over the weekend demanded from the international community to do something about this “before we react.”

In his appearance on Hayat television on Saturday, Lajcak repeatedly refused to say whether he will use his broad governing powers and dismiss both Dodik and Silajdzic on Monday.




I find it funny how he said "If the high rrepresenttive removes me...I'll start flippin out". Asif he's above all. He didn't say anything about his people being safe lol.

[BW2]

I find it funny how he said "If the high rrepresenttive removes me...I'll start flippin out". Asif he's above all. He didn't say anything about his people being safe lol.

Kinda like this guy...


Vice-president of the ruling Bosniak Party of democratic Action, Bakir Izetbegovic, over the weekend demanded from the international community to do something about this “before we react." go for it...

[Ichabod]

Oh for crying out loud stop this fvcking **** before its too late....again.....

I feel sorry for the folks over there.

:(

[Mordoror]

“Let me be crystal clear. Bosnia and Herzegovina is a sovereign state; the Republika Srpska is not. Bosnia and Herzegovina’s territorial integrity is settled. These are facts of international law and Bosnia’s constitution,” said the United States ambassador Charles English in his statement on Friday evening.


“Let me be crystal clear. Serbia is a sovereign state; Kosovo is not. Serbia territorial integrity is settled. These are facts of international law and Serbian's constitution,” said the Russian ambassador several months ago

Funny how backblasts are coming back quicly those last time since February 2007

[Ichabod]

“Let me be crystal clear. Serbia is a sovereign state; Kosovo is not. Serbia territorial integrity is settled. These are facts of international law and Serbian's constitution,” said the Russian ambassador several months ago

Funny how backblasts are coming back quicly those last time since February 2007

Mordoror you **** how can you be so stubborn,Kosovo was a unique case doh.... p-)

[Wrangel]

Oh for crying out loud stop this fvcking **** before its too late....again.....

I feel sorry for the folks over there.

:(

Since this is directly connected to Kosovo precedent,to quote from another thread:


Linedoggie[/U]"] If you can calm yourself for a Moment, I'd like to know why you would want to have the Kosovars back?

They Obviously hate you....

You Obviously hate them...

You both refuse to live Peacefully together, so unless one side or the other is planning a "Final Solution" what will you accomplish?

Would not it be better to have Kosovo as a Regional Ally than as an Bitter Enemy?

Replace "Kosovars" with "Bosnian Serbs" and "Kosovo" with "Bosnian Serb republic".

Now,if Kosovo Albanians have right to declare their own state,because they don't want to live with Serbs,why don't give the same right to Bosnian Serbs,who do not want to be part of unitary Bosnian state?

[Mordoror]

Mordoror you **** how can you be so stubborn,Kosovo was a unique case doh.... p-)

yep sorry.
You know my foxnews satellite TV grid is out of order since several months
So my brain is regenerating

Hum more beer and fatty meals with some nice footages from vey intelligent TV shows will help to fix it

then i would be able to bable the mantra : it's unique case, it's a unique case, it's a unique case (hitting my head on the wall at the same time of course ....)

[Ichabod]

Since this is directly connected to Kosovo precedent,to quote from another thread:



Replace "Kosovars" with "Bosnian Serbs" and "Kosovo" with "Bosnian Serb republic".

Now,if Kosovo Albanians have right to declare their own state,because they don't want to live with Serbs,why don't give the same right to Bosnian Serbs,who do not want to be part of unitary Bosnian state?

Read my reply to Mordoror.

[Ichabod]

yep sorry.

Hum more beer and fatty meals with some nice footages from vey intelligent TV shows will help to fix it

then i would be able to bable the mantra : it's unique case, it's a unique case, it's a unique case (hitting my head on the wall at the same time of course ....)

You seem to have the right idea. :D

[Wrangel]

Read my reply to Mordoror.

Than this is "unique case" as well,following the same logic...p-)

[Ichabod]

This can be "unique case" as well...p-)

Nah....this is lacking too much

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h15/Zlayson/ekspozita_bush.jpg

[Pejon09]

Kosova have the backing of democratic IC, something Republika Srpska never will have (exept from Russia, Venezuela and Serbia of course) for crying out loud it didnt even exist back in Yugo days.

[Wrangel]

Nah....this is lacking too much

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h15/Zlayson/ekspozita_bush.jpg

I forgot that factor...rofl


Also explains "uniqueness" of Kosovo case.

[Lokos]

“Let me be crystal clear. Bosnia and Herzegovina is a sovereign state; the Republika Srpska is not. Bosnia and Herzegovina’s territorial integrity is settled. These are facts of international law and Bosnia’s constitution,” said the United States ambassador Charles English in his statement on Friday evening.

“My government will not tolerate any challenges, whether they be internal or external, to Bosnia’s sovereignty or territorial integrity.”

I don't think I'm the only one to find this a bit rich.

L.

[Mordoror]

Kosova have the backing of democratic IC

Not the backing of UN

Hardly the backing of more than 50 states (which are for 99,99 % US allies and sponsored states)


it didnt even exist back in Yugo days.

Kosovo was never a state back in Yugo days. It was a province. A province is not a state. From a regulatory point of view, given the international laws, it's much like some cities within a state declared their independance (Like for exemple if Pec says is independant of Pristina).
This is not accepted by UN since 1949
To become independant and be recognized as such you have to be a state not a province. However the Kosovo case set up a precedent
so know we have South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Soon we will have RS. And may be more .....

[Sumadinac]

Dodik is just a politician. I'm sure he doesn't care about independance. But people want him to talk about it...

Serbs in Bosnia have their own institutions. Even though Republika Srpska is not a State, it's an entity with an high degree of autonomy. Bosniaks can't do anything without the agreement of the serbian people, that's why they can't recognize Kosovo.

[The Balkan]

“Let me be crystal clear. Serbia is a sovereign state; Kosovo is not. Serbia territorial integrity is settled. These are facts of international law and Serbian's constitution,” said the Russian ambassador several months ago

Funny how backblasts are coming back quicly those last time since February 2007

Hey don't blame us, we didn't take it from you lol. We have nothing to do with it. Your friends hurt you more on Kosovo then we did.

[Paya]

Bosnia is, for lack of a better term, a pretty ****ed up place. Many Bosniaks are literally itching for a war, feeling they've been screwed over in the Dayton peace talks. The mere existance of Republika Srpska offends and angers them. The Serbs, for their part, love Republika Srpska more than Serbia itself, which is understandable, seeing how 20.000 of their young men died creating it (at the same time, Karadzic's son was driving a Lamborgini and sniffing coke, btw). The mere thought of a unified Bosnian state horrifies them.

And the Croats? Nobody in Bosnia seems to take them seriously any more.

[zg18]

And the Croats? Nobody in Bosnia seems to take them seriously any more.

Yeah :-( ,we have absolutely the most idiotic politicians in BiH :slap: ,but on the other hand we are economically in better condition than Serbs and Bosniaks that compensates our lack of numerical and political strength ,but i'm not sure how will that last...

[TeslaN]

I think Bosnian Serbs should do everything in their power to help foster the creation of a third, Croatian, entity - with its capital in Mostar.

Its tragic what has happened to poor Croats...their numbers in Bosnia have dwindled from almost a million to barely 400.000 today. They don't even have a TV station in their own language.

Sucn an entity would also take some Bosniak attention off of Republika Srpska - let the place develop & prosper in peace.

[Pejon09]

Not the backing of UN

Hardly the backing of more than 50 states (which are for 99,99 % US allies and sponsored states)

Poor us, who cant join UN this year or the next year, so what we have had enougn of them and their corrupt ways of runing a state. Time will come when we eventually also join them, Switzerland didnt joined it until late 2004 and it didnt bother them much. Why would it bother us, having the backing of US and majority EU states.



Kosovo was never a state back in Yugo days. It was a province. A province is not a state. From a regulatory point of view, given the international laws, it's much like some cities within a state declared their independance (Like for exemple if Pec says is independant of Pristina).
This is not accepted by UN since 1949
To become independant and be recognized as such you have to be a state not a province. However the Kosovo case set up a precedent
so know we have South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Soon we will have RS. And may be more .....

Why are you ignoring it was autonomous province under Yugoslavia, smth RS never was and will never come to close to Kosova's recognition.

[zg18]

I think Bosnian Serbs should do everything in their power to help foster the creation of a third, Croatian, entity - with its capital in Mostar.

Its tragic what has happened to poor Croats...their numbers in Bosnia have dwindled from almost a million to barely 400.000 today. They don't even have a TV station in their own language.

Don't worry ,they view Croatian state television p-)

[Mordoror]

Hey don't blame us, we didn't take it from you lol. We have nothing to do with it. Your friends hurt you more on Kosovo then we did.I don't blame someone, not even Bosnia, for the Balkan mess (and BTW i am not Serb)

If i have somebody to balme it is in the order

- the devil's tryptic : Milosevic/Izetbegovic/Tudjman for their ****ing retarded nationalist ideas that cost rivers of blood and tears

- the average Joe in the Balkan whatever side he comes from for its blatant ability to follow its politician retarded ideas to doom

- The UE that was too weak willed to do something

- The US that are playing now the states of the area as pawns for their own interests that are plentiful : keep an infected wound open in the belly of Europe, play on some islamic help idea, settle to protect pipelines and closing to middle east and mediterranean waters more and more

- The US again for having set the Kosovo precedent that will help setting aflame volatile areas like RS (or lot of others areas not only in Europe)

[Paya]

the average Joe in the Balkan whatever side he comes from for its blatant ability to follow its politican retarded ideas to doom
...All the while keeping the politician's picture in his living room, never missing a rally, and indoctrinating his kids to hate the surrounding tribes.

Come to think of it, never mind Milosevic, Izetbegovic and Tudjman. I say Joe Balkan is to blame.

[The Balkan]

I think Bosnian Serbs should do everything in their power to help foster the creation of a third, Croatian, entity - with its capital in Mostar.

Its tragic what has happened to poor Croats...their numbers in Bosnia have dwindled from almost a million to barely 400.000 today. They don't even have a TV station in their own language.

Sucn an entity would also take some Bosniak attention off of Republika Srpska - let the place develop & prosper in peace.




Please don't act like you're out for their benefit and good health of Croats. Last time I checked we almostalways had better relations with our Croat population. Even when we fought for a year, it wasn't with all of them just some elements. Sure there's tension and hate but it's nothing compared to the one between Serbs and Croatsand Serbs and Bosniaks. We know why Serbs would want a 3rd entity, nobody here is retarted lol.

[Mordoror]

Poor us, who cant join UN this year or the next year, so what we have had enougn of them and their corrupt ways of runing a state. Time will come when we eventually also join them,
Time will tell


Switzerland didnt joined it until late 2004 and it didnt bother them much. Why would it bother us, having the backing of US and majority EU states.

nice comparating Kosovo and Switzerland
May i Lol ?


Why are you ignoring it was autonomous province under Yugoslavia,

What you are ignoring is by international laws that even an autonomous province is not authorized to get independance as it is not a formed state. Only former states can ask back for independance (That's was the case for former soviet republics, East Timor and so on)
This was not accepted until now for any other province being autonomus or not (from Pais Vasco to Catalunya, from Puntland to Bolivia autonomus regions ....)
You should read the UN texts back 1949

to make it clear if in USA some states want to secede it is by law possible. But if within those states some areas want to secede (let's say for example Los Angeles county want to quit California, as it is not a formed state with its own organized government or it is not a republic it is not allowed from a UN regulatory point of view ....)

[Ichabod]

Come to think of it, never mind Milosevic, Izetbegovic and Tudjman. I say Joe Balkan is to blame.

Exactamondo!

Who can blame the schmuks in power for screwing us over when they are just taking advantage of an opportunity that we give them.

[The Balkan]

Exactamondo!

Who can blame the schmuks in power for screwing us over when they are just taking advantage of an opportunity that we give them.


I think we like to blame individual leaders a little too much. Like we're mindless zombies and didn't all know what we were doing. Thats bull. People themselves are as much to blame as anyone.

[Mordoror]

People themselves are as much to blame as anyone.

not entirely false

but everybody should be aware that the IQ of a crowd of 100 personns is far far far lower than the sum of the IQ of these 100 personns taken individualy
The people is to be blamed but the politicians are to be blamed for palying with the people lowest instincts

It is like a lighter and a gazoline crate. You do not have any explosion if both are not at the right palce at the right time


Politicians are the lighters

[The Balkan]

not entirely false

but everybody should be aware that the IQ of a crowd of 100 personns is far far far lower than the sum of the IQ of these 100 personns taken individualy
The people is to be blamed but the politicians are to be blamed for palying with the people lowest instincts

It is like a lighter and a gazoline crate. You do not have any explosion if both are not at the right palce at the right time


Politicians are the lighters

Yea but those same politicans wouldn't have that effect on some other less "fiery" populations....it just seems our crazy asses are lit up far, far easier. And I wouldn't say Balkanians are dumber then everyone else lol. But they dissapointme almost daily, from all sides.

[Pejon09]

Time will tell

It sure will, as always.



nice comparating Kosovo and Switzerland
May i Lol ?

You can laugh as much as you like, I just stated the obvious.



What you are ignoring is by international laws that even an autonomous province is not authorized to get independance as it is not a formed state. Only former states can ask back for independance (That's was the case for former soviet republics, East Timor and so on)
This was not accepted until now for any other province being autonomus or not (from Pais Vasco to Catalunya, from Puntland to Bolivia autonomus regions ....)
You should read the UN texts back 1949

to make it clear if in USA some states want to secede it is by law possible. But if within those states some areas want to secede (let's say for example Los Angeles county want to quit California, as it is not a formed state with its own organized government or it is not a republic it is not allowed from a UN regulatory point of view ....)

You are ignoring what took place in 98-99, where was International Law then? Tell me?

I doubt any US states would want Independence, obviously none of them are risking ethnic cleansing.

[V.I.D.]

Things are seriously f-ed up in Bosnia. If there was no war in the first place and Bosnian independence was brought up in a trustworthy agreement with 1/3 of its population (Serbs) instead of overriding their fears/votes, this could have been a functional country. But now, 13 years after the war, when you have a new generation brought up to hate its neighbors and with the mentality of isolated herd, there is no place for optimism. All three nations will keep voting for their respective nationalist parties (irrespective of criminal trading of corrupted politicians amongst them all) until another conflict starts in the area. If I were religious, I'd say: May God help us all. As it stands, everyone will need a lot of luck in the future.

[Mordoror]

You are ignoring what took place in 98-99, where was International Law then? Tell me?

ignoring ?? no certainly not
It was an internal police operation (like you had in several western democracy or western sympathizer countries before and after : let me remind you :
Northern Ireland (UK)
New Caledonia (France)
Honduras
Guatemala
Peru
Turkey (against the PKK)
and so on

on evry time military and police forces were used to squash armed independantist uprising (and nobody said or say something)

Can you explain me how the UCK that was stated in 1998 as a terrorist organization was removed from the list after that


I doubt any US states would want Independence

some US citizen wants


obviously none of them are risking ethnic cleansing.
until the NATO bombing there was not such ethnic cleansing. There were fight between police and military police and BND and SAS supported/trained and armed UCK (not to talk about the role of the albanian secret services)

that means strong and violent operations and yes "collateral" civilian damages (as it is said today in PC military speechs) for both sides

find me just some sources talking about true ethnic cleansing in 1998-1999 (i am not talking about 10 villagers expelled from a small village were UCK fighters were entrenched and that was about to be stormed by MUP units

you know (or should know) like me that all the NATO reports sayings that 150 000 albanians were killed and that a horseshoe plan was prepared in Blegrade are just BS


but enough of this we are derailing the thread. If you find some sources please send it by MP

[V.I.D.]

You are ignoring what took place in 98-99, where was International Law then? Tell me?

I doubt any US states would want Independence, obviously none of them are risking ethnic cleansing.

Yes, and you're ignoring that Albanians rioted against police and Serbia/Yugoslavia for decades prior. Did no one tell you about "student protests" in 1981 with "Kosova republjik" chanting, one year after Tito's death? How about SS Division Skanderbeg in WWII or shooting on Serbian army/civilians on their retreat to Greece in WWI. Face it, Albanians tried to steal Kosovo for a very long time now, it just came handy that idiot Milosevic was in power and that US allowed them to do so in the period you mentioned here.

[Hyde]

Why are you ignoring it was autonomous province under Yugoslavia, smth RS never was and will never come to close to Kosova's recognition.

Autonomous province of Serbia, not yugoslavia. The RS had far more rights than the Serbian provinces Tito created ever had, like own Armed Forces and own Police which are now part of the new joint armed forces of both entities. So, RS was not only something similar, but even more than kosovo or vojvodina ever were, it is just called differently.

And I am against any independence of the RS. I am just surprised the Muslim Bosnians, with their own experiences from the early 90s, fail to see that the Serbian people which make ca.35% of the population have wishes too, and instead of trying to come to a consensus which leaves everyone happy they try to play the hard-asses and rulers of others. IF they dont change their behaviour, this thing can turn into nasty stuff, it will all just be twisted. And this time neither the UN, US or EU are going to support the position and use the phrases they did in the early 90s.

[Mate]

I say.....let`s ****ing nuke the whole ****ing place,(Ballkans),it`s not worth a ****,for the **** sake!!!

[V.I.D.]

I say.....let`s ****ing nuke the whole ****ing place,(Ballkans),it`s not worth a ****,for the **** sake!!!

Are you OK? Take ten deep breaths then lie down, buddy. No point in getting nervous breakdown over something you can't change.

On the other hand, if you want to derail the thread just say it so. That way, we can report you on time.

[V.I.D.]

B92 (http://www.b92.net/eng/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif News (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Region (http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php) http://static.b92.net/images/news/item-new-black.gif Region http://static.b92.net/images/trans.gif RS to halt transfer of powers 13 October 2008 | 18:33 | Source: Beta BANJA LUKA -- Republic of Srpska (RS) Premier Milorad Dodik announced today there will be no new transfers of RS powers to Bosnia-Herzegovina.

This is especially true of the state-level lawmaking, Dodik told the RS parliament in Banja Luka.

He recommended MPs to adopt a conclusion that the transfers from the entities to the state level have not been done in accordance to the Dayton Agreement, and that the jurisdiction transfer not approved by the RS parliament, must be reinstated.

The parliament session started today, and was scheduled to discuss the political situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina, reports said earlier on Monday.

The session was called by RS President Rajko Kuzmanović, triggered by speeches the presiding member of the Bosnian presidency, Haris Silajdžić, recently gave at the UN General Assembly and Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE).

The RS president submitted information on the political relations in Bosnia-Herzegovina, stating that the RS parliament must express concern over the radicalization of political and international relations in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that Banja Luka decisively rejects the demands of Bosniak politicians for a unitary state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

The RS parliament supports a preservation of the constitutional order of Bosnia-Herzegovina, while the constitution can be changed only in accordance with the procedures and through an agreement between the entities and the three constitutive nations, Kuzmanović said in his report.

He also stated that the entity’s parliament would “express its readiness to use its rights and political ability, including the right to a referendum for the RS citizens, in order to defend its legitimate interest and preserve its identity confirmed by the Dayton Peace Accords.”

Kuzmanović called on the MPs to adopt a stance with which every demand from the international community or the Muslim Croat Federation’s government to drastically decrease the authority of the RS, would be considered “an act that endangers the sovereignty and constitutional position of the RS.”

Reacting to this, International High Representative in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Miroslav Lajčak, called on the “ruling politicians to once and for all stop with the obstruction and threats to unilaterally change the Dayton Agreement, and turn towards the European priorities.”

As the debate opened today, Serb Democratic Party official Borislav Bojić said that the discussions regarding the situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina has come too late, which Serb Radical Party of RS official Milanko Mihajlica agreed with.

The parliamentary session was attended by RS senior officials as well as Party of Democratic Action leader Sulejman Tihić, Party of Democratic Progress President Mladen Ivanić and Democratic National Alliance leader Marko Pavić.

[Mate]

On the other hand, if you want to derail the thread just say it so. That way, we can report you on time.
Heh!!
Is that all you can do?
This thread has gone to hell (like all other Balkan threads)....i`m trying to avoid them as hell....but it makes me sick to see all that whining and complaining.
Bye

[Pejon09]

ignoring ?? no certainly not
It was an internal police operation (like you had in several western democracy or western sympathizer countries before and after : let me remind you :
Northern Ireland (UK)
New Caledonia (France)
Honduras
Guatemala
Peru
Turkey (against the PKK)
and so on

on evry time military and police forces were used to squash armed independantist uprising (and nobody said or say something)

Can you explain me how the UCK that was stated in 1998 as a terrorist organization was removed from the list after that



some US citizen wants


until the NATO bombing there was not such ethnic cleansing. There were fight between police and military police and BND and SAS supported/trained and armed UCK (not to talk about the role of the albanian secret services)

that means strong and violent operations and yes "collateral" civilian damages (as it is said today in PC military speechs) for both sides

find me just some sources talking about true ethnic cleansing in 1998-1999 (i am not talking about 10 villagers expelled from a small village were UCK fighters were entrenched and that was about to be stormed by MUP units

you know (or should know) like me that all the NATO reports sayings that 150 000 albanians were killed and that a horseshoe plan was prepared in Blegrade are just BS


but enough of this we are derailing the thread. If you find some sources please send it by MP

I dont see any of them trying ethnic cleanse their ppl, do you? I can post you pictures of killed babys and raped women on the hands of Serbian regime on your PM, how does that sound? A picture says more then thousend word they say... I lived there when sh!t started to get hot and know what took place, we tried peacefully to get our voice out but it didnt worked, so when we tried to protect our ppl the more powerfull army tried ethnic cleansing and almost succeeded until another powerull army had it show it some sence. Should we tear down Serbian riots on the northern part, we have the backing of US...? We wont ever become the animal as the leaders in Belgrad once was and mostly of them are still today. It hasnt happend to your ppl, so you dont know what Im talking about.

[Pejon09]

Yes, and you're ignoring that Albanians rioted against police and Serbia/Yugoslavia for decades prior. Did no one tell you about "student protests" in 1981 with "Kosova republjik" chanting, one year after Tito's death? How about SS Division Skanderbeg in WWII or shooting on Serbian army/civilians on their retreat to Greece in WWI. Face it, Albanians tried to steal Kosovo for a very long time now, it just came handy that idiot Milosevic was in power and that US allowed them to do so in the period you mentioned here.

How about Arkans criminal militia, were they also under the command of Serbian army? Didnt Serbs burn down the checkpoin and killed a Ukranian police officer trying to protect the UN court in northern part? How are we going to steal our own land, we tried to protect it from occupation and thank god its free today with equal right for everyone and not second class citizen wich we had to go thru (89-99).

[Pejon09]

Autonomous province of Serbia, not yugoslavia. The RS had far more rights than the Serbian provinces Tito created ever had, like own Armed Forces and own Police which are now part of the new joint armed forces of both entities. So, RS was not only something similar, but even more than kosovo or vojvodina ever were, it is just called differently.

And I am against any independence of the RS. I am just surprised the Muslim Bosnians, with their own experiences from the early 90s, fail to see that the Serbian people which make ca.35% of the population have wishes too, and instead of trying to come to a consensus which leaves everyone happy they try to play the hard-asses and rulers of others. IF they dont change their behaviour, this thing can turn into nasty stuff, it will all just be twisted. And this time neither the UN, US or EU are going to support the position and use the phrases they did in the early 90s.

It was a autonomous province of Yugoslavia, until Slobodan fixed that part and made it Serbian, why do you think Slovenia left you? Why did Croatia want to leave, Bosnia, FYROM... later Montenegro and finally Kosova?

Your making it too easy for me.

[The Balkan]

Autonomous province of Serbia, not yugoslavia. The RS had far more rights than the Serbian provinces Tito created ever had, like own Armed Forces and own Police which are now part of the new joint armed forces of both entities. So, RS was not only something similar, but even more than kosovo or vojvodina ever were, it is just called differently.

And I am against any independence of the RS. I am just surprised the Muslim Bosnians, with their own experiences from the early 90s, fail to see that the Serbian people which make ca.35% of the population have wishes too, and instead of trying to come to a consensus which leaves everyone happy they try to play the hard-asses and rulers of others. IF they dont change their behaviour, this thing can turn into nasty stuff, it will all just be twisted. And this time neither the UN, US or EU are going to support the position and use the phrases they did in the early 90s.

Completly unfair. As if we are the ones that are totaly unreasonable and you are open to all negotiations. RS Serbs are STRONGLY agains any unified Bosnia, without ever evenhaving been in one. They just assume we would run rampant on them and kill them all, which is complete crap. The trully sad thing is a unified Bosnia had an even BETTER chance to work the first timein 1992, if they gave it a chance then. Now the bitterness over the events in the war has made that task twice as hard. And RS is really nothing but the front lines at the end of the war. It has no historical basis and never existed before. Just a line down the middle of the whole country, not some province attatched to it that hasit's own history.

[V.I.D.]

Completly unfair. As if we are the ones that are totaly unreasonable and you are open to all negotiations. RS Serbs are STRONGLY agains any unified Bosnia, without ever evenhaving been in one. They just assume we would run rampant on them and kill them all, which is complete crap. The trully sad thing is a unified Bosnia had an even BETTER chance to work the first timein 1992, if they gave it a chance then. Now the bitterness over the events in the war has made that task twice as hard. And RS is really nothing but the front lines at the end of the war. It has no historical basis and never existed before. Just a line down the middle of the whole country, not some province attatched to it that hasit's own history.

Why did Bosniaks and Croats tied their flags in March of 1992? Why the massacres in Sijekovac and killing of Serbian guy at the wedding in Sarajevo in the same month? Why the Serbs' concerns weren't addressed but independence proclaimed against the constitution regardless? The chance for Bosnia to live as a normal country had been lost in Spring of 1992.
RS is reality now, just like Kosovo situation is today. There ought to be a just solution found for both, but I doubt people will be smart enough to learn anything from the past.

Pejon9, no one denied that crimes have been committed in Serbian name during the Kosovo War. What Albanian forumes do not want to admit here is illegality of their move and the fact that they wanted Kosovo all for for themselves long before Milosevic was even born. Plus, this thread is about RS & Bosnia so let's stop this discussion on Kosovo unless it directly relates to RS/Federation of Bosnia/Herzegovina. Such as: legality of independence and what happens after?

[Pejon09]

Pejon9, no one denied that crimes have been committed in Serbian name during the Kosovo War. What Albanian forumes do not want to admit here is illegality of their move and the fact that they wanted Kosovo all for for themselves long before Milosevic was even born. Plus, this thread is about RS & Bosnia so let's stop this discussion on Kosovo unless it directly relates to RS/Federation of Bosnia/Herzegovina. Such as: legality of independence and what happens after?

Im glad you admit and yes we should stop this discussion.

If RS would secede it would most propably want to join Serbia. The next question would be, would Serbia accept her?

[BW2]

Oh lord Pejon09 your too much.... :cantbeli:

[Pejon09]

Im sorry you feel that way.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

This guys to all countries from the region except for Greece. Man you guys have had what 100 years of ruling yourself give or take.

In this time you have caused countless wars involving everybody in the region from Turkey to Austria.

You have caused one of the most destructive wars in human history.

And more recently you have been fighting amongst yourselves.

I say we bring back the Austrians and Turks to keep you in line. Obviously can't do it for yourselves.

[Stefan850]

This guys to all countries from the region except for Greece. Man you guys have had what 100 years of ruling yourself give or take.

In this time you have caused countless wars involving everybody in the region from Turkey to Austria.

You have caused one of the most destructive wars in human history.

And more recently you have been fighting amongst yourselves.

I say we bring back the Austrians and Turks to keep you in line. Obviously can't do it for yourselves.

Yup, and America was very nice in the last 100 years.

Come bring us in line. :)

[BW2]

I say we bring back the Austrians and Turks to keep you in line. Obviously can't do it for yourselves. You now I don't want to play the blame game but when you think about it those two countries somewhat instigated or contributed to the instability in the Balkans today.



You have caused one of the most destructive wars in human history. The Balkans are bad but nowhere close to that bad... if you think that's the case then your oblivious to whats been going on in the likes of the Middle East, Africa and Asia as we speak.

[The Balkan]

You now I don't want to play the blame game but when you think about it those two countries somewhat instigated or contributed to the instability in the Balkans today.


The Balkans are bad but nowhere close to that bad... if you think that's the case then your oblivious to whats been going on in the likes of the Middle East, Africa and Asia as we speak.

I think he meant World War 1 which in turn layed the seeds for pretty much every other ****storm after it.

[INAT]

I will not argue or go back and forth. If anyone needs clarification read the links that I used to support my opinion. Thank you.


First let’s take a look at why the Bosnian Serb parliament is responding in the way they are. This is in relation to the article The Balkan posted.

Muslim leader's UN speech sparks controversy
http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Security/?id=1.0.2509211607



Haris Silajdzic has time and time again called for the RS to be abolished and for Serbs to be punished .He has consistently pointed the finger at the RS as the cause of Bosnia’s problems. He feels the Serbs were rewarded at Dayton even though Milosevic gave the Muslims every concession, even some things they did not ask for.
The Muslims would benefit most from a possible war and the abolishment of the RS but they cannot be seen as the aggressors. Silajdzic wants to correct "war errors" and hides his lust for war under the guise of seeking "international justice."

Silajdzic is as hostile towards the Dayton accords as he is towards RS
And in my personal view is extremely antagonistic towards peace and current stability. I really wonder if Silajdzic would be so anti-Dayton if
The Federation was doing better in the economic sector? The Republika Srpska has very little to gain and much to lose if there is another war, while the BiH has much to gain.

It always seems to boil down to money or the lack of money and economic stability.

From Ian Bancrofts July 08 article n the Guardian.
"Republika Srpska has engaged in a plethora of socio-economic reforms (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6943869.stm) designed to improve the entity's business environment by streamlining bureaucracy and cutting tax. As a result, it has benefited from privatisation deals, encouraged substantial foreign direct investment and now maintains a healthy budget surplus.

In comparison, overly generous payments to war veterans have left the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the verge of bankruptcy (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b9fe4070-4bc1-11dd-a490-000077b07658.html). Only &€;221 remained in its treasury at the end of May. What the International Monetary Fund describes as a 'liquidity squeeze' has led to lower then expected budget revenues. Financial instability in the Federation has damaging ramifications for the economic prospects of Bosnia and Herzegovina as a whole, deterring investors from an already challenging"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/28/balkans.radovankaradzic


About BiH financial crisis.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b9fe4070-4bc1-11dd-a490-000077b07658.html

Republika Srpska's reforms
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6943869.stm

http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews+articleid_2413763&title=Croatian_Premier_Says.html
Croat situation interview with Ivo Sanader.



"The impression is that Croats are being increasingly denied equality. I believe it would be in the interests of both Bosniaks [Bosnian Muslims] and Serbs to change that impression."


Silajdzic seems to be stuck in the 90's war mentality. Some of the people that were in power then are still in power today and they could very well be the cause of any future war. Serbs are not calling for the abolishment of the Federation are they? While Bosnia’s Serbs had to give up plenty for Dayton the Muslims made no significant concessions and are today trying to make null and void the fragile peace and stability that Dayton brought. When Dayton was signed the Croat/Muslim army was making great advances and they felt cheated for not being allowed to push further. The EU colonization of Bosnia does not seem to understand that trying to centralize power is a fatal mistake, it was one of the causes of the last war. These people need a break from each other. If a multi-ethnic Jugoslavia (attempted twice) could not work why would the IC think a multi-ethnic Bosnia had any chance?


No one was happy after Dayton but there was peace from it. If the Muslims keep calling for the destruction of RS I shudder to think what Bosnia's future will be. I really do because all that is needed is a spark.

I would like to see Bosnia's Serbs and Croats work together in the future.
There is much that can be done to improve the life of Bosnia's citizens if
Their leaders (Serbs, Croats and Muslims) would get their heads out of their collective asses.

@Minardiau please keep your foolish comments to yourself.On this subect you seem to lack even basic historic knowledge.
As if the people in the Balkans invited empires to come and dominate them.Empires acted for their own interests and used the Balkan people like tools same as today.So please be quite.

[The Balkan]

The income of the Federation is 3 times bigger then that of RS.

In 2007, industry in the Federation grew by 9.7% while in the RS it grew by 1.4%.

In Sarajevo alone there is more production then in all of the RS. LOL.

Same with tourism. Something like more tourists in Sarajevo in one month then in all of RS for a year.

The budget of RS is much smaller then that of the Federation. Ours is strained yes, but it produces 3.8+ million KM, RS only produces 1.4 million.

The only thing that's presently better in RS is the wages in some fields, which gives the impression ofsome better life, but it won't last long.

For those who can read the language: http://www.24sata.info/15595

[V.I.D.]

Yes, The Balkan, and that's why there's literally no money in Federal budget, while RS had several hundred millions. Bottom line is, both entities are rather pathetic when it comes to the economy, but RS has the clear initiative and one government as opposed to a dozen & 1/2 of cantonal governments in Federation. It is a too huge and dysfunctional apparatus to be effective and all paid by citizens of Bosnia.

BTW, did anyone tell you that putting LOLs in every single post make you sound rather unintelligent and humorless? Take this as a friendly advice.

[BW2]

I think he meant World War 1 I don't think he did, but even so how would that be relevant to "us" causing the most destructive war in history? It was the same Austria that he suggested going back to keep us "in line" that triggered WW1 using the same ambition of controlling "us"...

And a couple sources to your claims of RS being behind FBiH economically would be helpful since those claims are rather steep...

[The Balkan]

Yes, The Balkan, and that's why there's literally no money in Federal budget, while RS had several hundred millions. Bottom line is, both entities are rather pathetic when it comes to the economy, but RS has the clear initiative and one government as opposed to a dozen & 1/2 of cantonal governments in Federation. It is a too huge and dysfunctional apparatus to be effective and all paid by citizens of Bosnia.

BTW, did anyone tell you that putting LOLs in every single post make you sound rather unintelligent and humorless? Take this as a friendly advice.

You obviosly didn't read the link and don't understand how a budget works.

But of course all those facts I just linked to, are "propaganda". Of course.


And I am from RS teritory. Well it wasn't back then, but it is now. Mostof my family is still there. I have no desire for it to be poor or miserable cuz that would mean my family is poor and miserable.

Again read: http://www.24sata.info/15595 (http://www.24sata.info/15595)

Then go check those facts if you want.

[KET]

This guys to all countries from the region except for Greece. Man you guys have had what 100 years of ruling yourself give or take.

In this time you have caused countless wars involving everybody in the region from Turkey to Austria.

You have caused one of the most destructive wars in human history.

And more recently you have been fighting amongst yourselves.

I say we bring back the Austrians and Turks to keep you in line. Obviously can't do it for yourselves.

You don't even want to know how ignorant this makes you sound.

[Uboj]

Hey don't blame us, we didn't take it from you lol. We have nothing to do with it. Your friends hurt you more on Kosovo then we did.

This is a good point. Bosnians have nothing to do with kosovo

[INAT]

The income of the Federation is 3 times bigger then that of RS.

In 2007, industry in the Federation grew by 9.7% while in the RS it grew by 1.4%.

In Sarajevo alone there is more production then in all of the RS. LOL.

Same with tourism. Something like more tourists in Sarajevo in one month then in all of RS for a year.

The budget of RS is much smaller then that of the Federation. Ours is strained yes, but it produces 3.8+ million KM, RS only produces 1.4 million.

The only thing that's presently better in RS is the wages in some fields, which gives the impression ofsome better life, but it won't last long.

For those who can read the language: http://www.24sata.info/15595


You said “strained” the IMF says on the verge of bankruptcy.
Who has more credibility?

Hmm. Why do you feel that it will not last long?

I provided non-Balkan Western links in regards to the economy.
They included IMF reactions to the situation. You gave us one BiH source
to back up all of those claims. I would like to see where you got your info besides the BiH media.

The BBC reported this

200 companies from the other half of Bosnia, known as the Federation, have now registered in the RS to save money and avoid bureaucracy.

The Balkan I am just curious why do you always put "LOL" after things
you say that have nothing to do with laughing? Are we not to take you seriously or is it just a nervous habit. Either way it is a bit odd.

The initial topic was a reaction to the RS parliament decision to hold a meeting to discuss as it stated legal and political means to protect the
RS after some particularly hostile and aggressive comments made by your
President Haris Silajdzic.I chose to point out the economic aspect of the situation.There is too much beaurocratic bs in Bosnia less
so in RS.

The Muslim government is bent on trying to destroy the RS and dominating
all of Bosnia. They are trying their best to spin this and to get international assistance for the project. So in many ways the situation is just like the 90s.Dayton froze hostilities and if they thaw Serbs(alone) cannot be blamed for it.Silajdzic is making the political climate as hostile as possible while at the same time blaming Serbs for not integrating and allegedly holding Bosnia back. Things need to be placed in the proper context.

Should Serbs and Croats be expected to bow down simply because Muslims are the majority? It is not right and it is not fair to the people on ALL sides. Dayton was signed by Izetbegovic and it is the only thing keeping Bosnia one state. Attempting to centralize a state that fought a bitter three way war not long ago is a grave mistake. What’s wrong with everyone separating if we cannot live in peace? Those that have colonized Bosnia can control it better as one state that is what's wrong.

If Bosnia became three states the office of High Representative would cease to exist. Serbs/Croats voting to separate would be seen as a threat.
After all there was a referendum to split from Jugoslavia why can't we have that same right to split from Bosnia?

Bosnia is related to Kosovo because the US/EU allowed Albanians to split from Serbia but do afford the Serbs and Croats of Bosnia that same right.The double standards issue.Get it? I think you do.


It is one big mess that in the end the common people will have to pay for.

[The Balkan]

Blah, blah, I told you before INAT what you can do with yourself when you tried to be my "buddy". I don't engage in serious arguments with you anymore. You who isn't even Bosnian, are the perfect example of why people don't move forward. Think whatever you want.

All I'll say to all of you who keep bringing Kosovo up in here is: at the end of the day, you want Bosnia to pay, for something Kosovo Albanians did to you.

FU*K THAT.

We've already payed plenty, far more then any of our neighbors.

If you feel you've been cheated take it up wih those who did it, don't aim your frustrations at someone else. Because people can dream about it, but it won't happen. It. won't. happen.

But PLEASE stop using the cheap tactic of divide and conquer and putting Croats and Serbs together as if you're friends against the big bad Bosniaks. It's so CHEAP, and transparent. In the last weak alone the Croatian president called Dodik all kinds of names and the "new Milosevic".

[Stefan850]

You don't even want to know how ignorant this makes you sound.


We agree on something

there is hope woot

[Stefan850]

All I'll say to all of you who keep bringing Kosovo up in here is: at the end of the day, you want Bosnia to pay, for something Kosovo Albanians did to you.

FU*K THAT.

We've already payed plenty, far more then any of our neighbors.

If you feel you've been cheated take it up wih those who did it, don't aim your frustrations at someone else. .

I know you don't really think that it works that way. We dont want Bosnia to pay for anything, we want to support our people in Bosnia and help them achieve what ever they want. If we actually do something it wont be because we hate Bosnia but because we love our people.

It's pretty simple and yet you keep repeating that like it's a valid argument. you even got support from someone. :|

[The Balkan]

I know you don't really think that it works that way. We dont want Bosnia to pay for anything, we want to support our people in Bosnia and help them achieve what ever they want. If we actually do something it wont be because we hate Bosnia but because we love our people.

It's pretty simple and yet you keep repeating that like it's a valid argument. you even got support from someone. :|

Right. As if "If Kosovo can split, WELL NOW SO CAN RS!!!" wasn't said a million times after Kosovo independance happend. Well excuse me if I get the impression that we're paying for it when someone else splits from Serbia, and as a result Bosnia who has nothing to do with it, loses 49% of it's teritory.

Serb say Albanian take from Serb. Serb is angry. Serb take half of Bosnia now.

:roll:


You love your people. Guess what? We love ours too, so do the Albanians, so do the Croats and the Slovenians and everyone else.

I guess we'll chalk up all the horrible things done in the last 100 years to "love of ones people".

Can't belive you even tried to feed me that. "If I stab you, it's only cuz I love my people!". Well hey, my wound suddenly feels better now that I know that!

:bash:

[Stefan850]

Right. As if "If Kosovo can split, WELL NOW SO CAN RS!!!" wasn't said a million times after Kosovo independance happend. Well excuse me if I get the impression that we're paying for it when someone else splits from Serbia, and as a result Bosnia who has nothing to do with it, loses 49% of it's teritory.

Serb say Albanian take from Serb. Serb is angry. Serb take half of Bosnia now.

:roll:


You love your people. Guess what? We love ours too, so do the Albanians, so do the Croats and the Slovenians and everyone else.

I guess we'll chalk up all the horrible things done in the last 100 years to "love of ones people".

Can't belive you even tried to feed me that. "If I stab you, it's only cuz I love my people!". Well hey, my wound suddenly feels better now that I know that!

:bash:

What I'm saying is we are not getting our revenge at you because we cant do nothing about Kosovo, we are just using Kosovo as a new found argument, we would be crazy not to do that. RS wanted to split before Kosovo declared independence, no difference at all, just a new argument from RS's side.


Right. As if "If Kosovo can split, WELL NOW SO CAN RS!!!" wasn't said a million times after Kosovo independance happend.Yes it was, but there was no "If Kosovo can split, WELL NOW SO CAN RS WE WILL SHOW THOSE BOSNIAKS NOW" part, that's all I said, you kinda expanded what I wanted to say to a much bigger point than the one I was making.

Everything you say would be valid if there was no talk of RS splitting away before Kosovo.

[SrB-23Q]

Well Bosna & Hercegovina cant stay the way it is for ever, split in 2...something has to be done about it eventually, and if something is done about it soon i dont like the looks of it, but with time maybe, just maybe a peacful solution can be made.

[The Balkan]

Well Bosna & Hercegovina cant stay the way it is for ever, split in 2...something has to be done about it eventually, and if something is done about it soon i dont like the looks of it, but with time maybe, just maybe a peacful solution can be made.

You might not belive this but I honestly agree with you there 100%

[INAT]

Well Bosna & Hercegovina cant stay the way it is for ever, split in 2...something has to be done about it eventually, and if something is done about it soon i dont like the looks of it, but with time maybe, just maybe a peacful solution can be made.


Well the first that needs to be done is for foreign powers to
Stop colonizing Bosna.They can start by abolishing Office of the High representative. Then victims from all three sides need true justice. After WW2 wounds were not able to heal and a true grieving and reconciliation process was not allowed by Tito and the communists.The same thing is true after this last war.Bosna will probably never see true and stable peace in its current form. It is like going through a bitter divorce and then the judge ordering you to live in the same house and sleep in the same bed as your quarrelsome spouse. All the moves made by outside powers in the last 20 years have worked to destabilize the region .After all there is no justification for foreign military powers to be involved in stable and prosperous regions of the world.
Before Jugoslavia descended into war and madness the standard of living was a whole lot better than it is now. People had food, shelter, security and medical care. Yes there were problems but the average citizen in any major city could walk the streets at night without fear of being gunned down by gangsters.

If Bosna splits and each group goes their own way people like Paddy Ashdown,Wolfgang Petritsch,Carlos Westendorp,Christian Schillng and Miroslav Lajcak are out of a job.

If RS tries to split this will work against the interests of the Muslims/NATO/EU/US. Each has their own interests they just happen to come together on this point. That is why they say Albanians have the right to determine their own future (which is code for walking off with Serb land.)The Serbs of RS and Croats of the federation do not have this right because it conflicts with imperial policy. What a shame.

[Ston123]

Best solution:

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/6625/formeryugoslaviawartimelp3.png

[SrB-23Q]

might suit you, but wouldnt suit the Bosniaks or the Serbs.

[RWR]

Best solution:

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/6625/formeryugoslaviawartimelp3.png

This one is better.

http://personal.inet.fi/cool/blt/bosna1800.jpg

:)

[Hyde]

The income of the Federation is 3 times bigger then that of RS.

In 2007, industry in the Federation grew by 9.7% while in the RS it grew by 1.4%.

In Sarajevo alone there is more production then in all of the RS. LOL.

Same with tourism. Something like more tourists in Sarajevo in one month then in all of RS for a year.

The budget of RS is much smaller then that of the Federation. Ours is strained yes, but it produces 3.8+ million KM, RS only produces 1.4 million.

The only thing that's presently better in RS is the wages in some fields, which gives the impression ofsome better life, but it won't last long.

For those who can read the language: http://www.24sata.info/15595

In Sarajevo alone there is more production then in all of the RS. LOL

Learn your language. It says "samo u Sarajevu se gradi više nego u cijeloj RS. "

For what I know, gradi means that something is being built. And yes there are ongoing projects in Sarajevo. But produce means proizvodi, and that is not what it says. Just a short hint for better translations.

[Hyde]

It was a autonomous province of Yugoslavia, until Slobodan fixed that part and made it Serbian, why do you think Slovenia left you? Why did Croatia want to leave, Bosnia, FYROM... later Montenegro and finally Kosova?

Your making it too easy for me.

It was always an autonomous province within Serbia, forget the lies Uncle Beshkim told you. Repeating your lies will not make them true.

You're behaving and argueing like a child with all that "why do you think everybody wants to leave you blaaah...", do you think you'll make me feel sorry for myself, my country or anything else? Stop being immature. :roll:

[Hyde]

Completly unfair. As if we are the ones that are totaly unreasonable and you are open to all negotiations. RS Serbs are STRONGLY agains any unified Bosnia, without ever evenhaving been in one. They just assume we would run rampant on them and kill them all, which is complete crap. The trully sad thing is a unified Bosnia had an even BETTER chance to work the first timein 1992, if they gave it a chance then. Now the bitterness over the events in the war has made that task twice as hard. And RS is really nothing but the front lines at the end of the war. It has no historical basis and never existed before. Just a line down the middle of the whole country, not some province attatched to it that hasit's own history.

They have their wishes and don't want to live with you for a lot of reasons. You didn't want to live with the Serbs in the early 90s either and seceeded from yugoslavia, ignoring their wish. So respect their will and try to work out something that suits both of you, everyone will have to make cut-backs to make this work without war.

[Zeev]

Nah....this is lacking too much

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h15/Zlayson/ekspozita_bush.jpg

good g.od ... these guys have no dignity or what????

you can be thankful and love the US, but such acts make you look like to the last of lapdogs..

Albanian should pay a little more attention on this kind of pics if they want to take care of their image, because it is not the first time I see things like that, and this is really pathetic

[Pejon09]

It was always an autonomous province within Serbia, forget the lies Uncle Beshkim told you. Repeating your lies will not make them true.

You're behaving and argueing like a child with all that "why do you think everybody wants to leave you blaaah...", do you think you'll make me feel sorry for myself, my country or anything else? Stop being immature. :roll:

Kosova remained Ottoman territory until it was conquered by Serbian forces in 1912. Serbs would say "liberated"; but even their own estimates put the Orthodox Serb population at less than 25%. The majority population was Albanian, and did not welcome Serb rule, so "conquered" seems the right word.

But legally, Kosova was not incorporated into the Serbian kingdom in 1912; it remained occupied territory until some time after 1918. Then, finally, it was incorporated, not into a Serbian state, but into a Yugoslav one. And with one big interruption (the second world war) it remained part of some sort of Yugoslav state until June 2006.

Until the destruction of the old federal Yugoslavia by Milosevic, Kosova had a dual status. It was called a part of Serbia; but it was also called a unit of the federation. In all practical ways, the latter sense prevailed: Kosova had its own parliament and government, and was directly represented at the federal level, alongside Serbia. It was, in fact, one of the eight units of the federal system

[Pejon09]

good g.od ... these guys have no dignity or what????

you can be thankful and love the US, but such acts make you look like to the last of lapdogs..

Albanian should pay a little more attention on this kind of pics if they want to take care of their image, because it is not the first time I see things like that, and this is really pathetic

Why do you care what our image looks like?

[RWR]

Problem with RS is the way it was created.
Agression, genocide and ethnic cleansing.You cant kill and expel 40% of non-Serb population from some parts of BiH, some parts on wich Serbs where minority, then proclaim republic and then demand from your victims and world to recognize you.
As such RS has no right to exist at all, not to mention outside of BiH.
It is genocidal construction created on war crimes with no history and tradition to speak of.

[Zeev]

Problem with RS is the way it was created.
Agression, genocide and ethnic cleansing.You cant kill and expel 40% of non-Serb population from some parts of BiH, some parts on wich Serbs where minority, then proclaim republic and then demand from your victims and world to recognize you.
As such RS has no right to exist at all, not to mention outside of BiH.
It is genocidal construction created on war crimes with no history and tradition to speak of.

so The problem is also how Islam came in the Balkans, the invasions, the attacks, the occupation, the massacres, the submission, etc...

If we start like that, this kind of reasonings are unlimited.

[Zeev]

Why do you care what our image looks like?

And you? why do you care about what I post?

It is my most absolute right to think that something is pathetic, and to express it, and you know what? If I want to criticize something about albanians, I'll do it as much as I want, by following the rules of the forum of course.

[Pejon09]

And you? why do you care about what I post?

It is my most absolute right to think that something is pathetic, and to express it, and you know what? If I want to criticize something about albanians, I'll do it as much as I want, by following the rules of the forum of course.

I care since its my ppl you type sh!t about thats what I care, same thing you would have done if it was Israelis, stop being premature.

[RWR]

so The problem is also how Islam came in the Balkans, the invasions, the attacks, the occupation, the massacres, the submission, etc...

If we start like that, this kind of reasonings are unlimited.

What conversion to Islam 500 years ago has to do with anything today?

My ancestors where local Bosnian nobles who willingly converted to Islam in 15 century acording to historical sources and Austro-Hungarian researchers.Does that mean that someone has right to kill me or expel me today from my country, town or home?

[LineDoggie]

Yup, and America was very nice in the last 100 years.

Come bring us in line. :)

Another in a line of ignorant retorts. "IF" you had a clue, you would know that the poster "Minardiau" isnt an American , he's Australian. So do continue your threats, they are amusing to say the least.

[Zeev]

I care since its my ppl you type sh!t about thats what I care, same thing you would have done if it was Israelis, stop being premature.

man, you can criticize israelis as much as you want, I really don't care, even if you says BS about them, because it will gave me the opportunity to proves that you are wrong, at least this is how logical people works, by using arguments.

free speech include the fact that the others can also criticize you, or disagree with you, If you can't understand that, this is not my problem.

[Pejon09]

man, you can criticize israelis as much as you want, I really don't care, even if you says BS about them, because it will gave me the opportunity to proves that you are wrong, at least this is how logical people works, by using arguments.

free speech include the fact that the others can also criticize you, or disagree with you, If you can't understand that, this is not my problem.

How is a picture to be ashamed about? What is so pathetic about it? You see killed ppl, or terrorist maybe? What is so pathetic about it, plz enlighten us.

[Zeev]

What conversion to Islam 500 years ago has to do with anything today?

My ancestors where local Bosnian nobles who willingly converted to Islam in 15 century acording to historical sources and Austro-Hungarian researchers.Does that mean that someone has right to kill me or expel me today from my country, town or home?

You know what I wanted to mean, they were converted in a faith which came from an agressor and an invader, the ottomans.

Naturally, today you cannot see things like that, the presence of Muslim bosnians is a fact, but some persons continue to think like that, it is as stupid as thinking that the legitimacy of the Serbian presence was created by a genocide against Muslims, The war just contributed to create a strong territorial separation between Serbs and Muslims. And let us not forget that the West and the center of Bosnia have also been cleaned of its serbian population.

[Zeev]

How is a picture to be ashamed about? What is so pathetic about it? You see killed ppl, or terrorist maybe? What is so pathetic about it, plz enlighten us.

OK, I have maybe made a mistake,and if it is the case I am really sorry..


Have I offended a local tradition or something like that?

[Stefan850]

Another in a line of ignorant retorts. "IF" you had a clue, you would know that the poster "Minardiau" isnt an American , he's Australian. So do continue your threats, they are amusing to say the least.


Don't know what difference does it make what precise nationality "Minardiau" is, he said




I say we bring back the Austrians and Turks to keep you in line. Obviously can't do it for yourselves.

And "IF" you think he meant "we Australians" or you don't understand my point here, well, we can argue some more.

I personally find ironic arguments like this very funny, especially when people like you don't see the irony :)

[Ston123]

You know what I wanted to mean, they were converted in a faith which came from an agressor and an invader, the ottomans.


And what faith didn't come with a sword on the Balkans?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matej_Ninoslav#Late_rule_and_the_Crusades

[Hyde]

Kosova remained Ottoman territory until it was conquered by Serbian forces in 1912. Serbs would say "liberated"; but even their own estimates put the Orthodox Serb population at less than 25%. The majority population was Albanian, and did not welcome Serb rule, so "conquered" seems the right word.

But legally, Kosova was not incorporated into the Serbian kingdom in 1912; it remained occupied territory until some time after 1918. Then, finally, it was incorporated, not into a Serbian state, but into a Yugoslav one. And with one big interruption (the second world war) it remained part of some sort of Yugoslav state until June 2006.

Until the destruction of the old federal Yugoslavia by Milosevic, Kosova had a dual status. It was called a part of Serbia; but it was also called a unit of the federation. In all practical ways, the latter sense prevailed: Kosova had its own parliament and government, and was directly represented at the federal level, alongside Serbia. It was, in fact, one of the eight units of the federal system

You are living in a phantasy world, man.
Serbia freed itself from Ottoman occupation and some years after that also re-captured kosovo which was still under ottoman rule. It was part of Serbia which was then part of yugoslavia 1 and in ww2 it was occupied by nazi troops who gave the albanians an own SS division, then after ww2 again Serbia (Serbia was one of the 6 yugoslav republics, not 8 -.-), then it got autonomy as a serbian province by tito, still only 6 republics in yugoslavia with 2 autonomous provinces within serbia, in the 90s integral part of serbia and from 99 un-governed territory.

[The Balkan]

BERLIN -- International High Representative Miroslav Lajčak says that the dismissal of RS Prime Minister Milorad Dodik would not help Bosnia-Hercegovina.

http://www.b92.net/news/pics/2008/10/40903757048f5aa601eef9811812022_MidCol.jpgMiroslav Lajčak, Milorad Dodik (FoNet, archive)

“I wouldn’t be helping the country by doing that. Instead of calling for dismissals, people have to realize that nationalist politicians are closing their path to the EU,“ Lajčak told German political weekly Der Spiegel.

Asked whether he could prevent a referendum on the Republic of Srpska’s (RS) secession, Lajčak replied that this would not be permitted.

“We would not allow that, as that would mean crossing the line drawn by the international community. Moreover, the RS would not be able to survive economically as an independent state. Dodik, however, is threatening to destroy Bosnia-Hercegovina in a much simpler and lawful way, by withdrawing his ministers and MPs from central state institutions and going over to the opposition. That would paralyze parliament, there would be no government and no Bosnia-Hercegovina. Without the Serbs, there’s no Bosnia,“ said the high representative.

Asked whether in the wake of the recent local elections in Bosnia-Hercegovina, the concept of a multi-ethnic state had collapsed terminally, he replied that the Dayton Peace Accords had ended the war, but that it was very difficult to establish the philosophy of a multi-ethnic society.

[Sumadinac]

It's just a logical reasoning. If Kosovo, a serbian province, has the "right" to secede and become an independant republic, so do the Serbs.

[The Balkan]

Then take half of Albania :)

[Sumadinac]

It's a serbian question which concerns serbian people.

[Mate]

It's just a logical reasoning. If Kosovo, was a serbian province, has the "right" to secede and become an independant republic, so do the Serbs.
Here fixed for you ;-).

[Stefan850]

Here fixed for you ;-).

Hehehe :) You are sooo witty :):)

[The Balkan]

It's a serbian question which concerns serbian people.

Oh you right, us Bosniaks have nothing to do with it.

:cantbeli:

[V.I.D.]

Let's hear some predictions about the development of situation. From reading the interview with Lajcak, it sounds as if he's giving the warning to Silajdzic/other Bosniak nationalists and practically a green light to Serbs to secede. I don't think there's enough political will in RS to create the referendum at this time. What about 5 years from now? It's hard to predict, knowing the people's mentality there and political situation, but I am positive that Bosnia will not be any closer to the EU. The biggest mistake by the West/EU after the ex-YU wars was that they kept blackmailing these countries with additional conditions instead of getting them closer to EU on the fast track. Now, there's too much desperation and corruption after almost two decades of being a craphole of Europe. I have a feeling there will be more conflicts to come in Balkans in the not-so-distant future.

[Sumadinac]

Oh you right, us Bosniaks have nothing to do with it.

:cantbeli:

Yes, only if Kosovo becomes a precedent. It means the right of a territorial unit to declare independance unilaterally. But you also need to be recognized by a majority of United Nations members States and all permanent members of security council.

[Sumadinac]

Let's hear some predictions about the development of situation. From reading the interview with Lajcak, it sounds as if he's giving the warning to Silajdzic/other Bosniak nationalists and practically a green light to Serbs to secede. I don't think there's enough political will in RS to create the referendum at this time. What about 5 years from now? It's hard to predict, knowing the people's mentality there and political situation, but I am positive that Bosnia will not be any closer to the EU. The biggest mistake by the West/EU after the ex-YU wars was that they kept blackmailing these countries with additional conditions instead of getting them closer to EU on the fast track. Now, there's too much desperation and corruption after almost two decades of being a craphole of Europe. I have a feeling there will be more conflicts to come in Balkans in the not-so-distant future.

What sort of conflicts? Do you mean war, like in the 90's?

[Pejon09]

It's just a logical reasoning. If Kosovo, a serbian province, has the "right" to secede and become an independant republic, so do the Serbs.

To bad you dont make the majority.

I see your location says Pec (Pejë in Albanian), where in that town if I may ask? Maybe we are neighbors. :)

[Lokos]

To bad you dont make the majority.

Well, they do. In Republika Srpska. Like you made up the majority in Kosovo - not Serbia.

L.

[richyrichard]

Secession.......I like the sound of that word.

http://www.richard-t-osborne.com/confed_flag.gif

__________________________
www.richard-t-osborne.com (http://www.richard-t-osborne.com)
www.lonewolfsurvivalist.com (http://www.lonewolfsurvivalist.com)

[Pejon09]

RS declares Dutch ambassador persona non grata

16 October 2008 | 10:22 | Source: B92
BANJA LUKA -- The Republic of Srpska government (RS) has proclaimed Dutch Ambassador Karel Vosskuhler a persona non grata in the RS.

The entity’s government decided to take the measures after an interview in which Vosskuhler told Sarajevo daily Dnevni Avaz that RS Prime Minister Milorad Dodik was “worse than Belarus dictator Aleksandr Lukashenko.”

According to a statement from the government, the ambassador crossed the line not only of acceptable diplomatic behavior, but good manners, which was why the RS government, via the Foreign Ministry and Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency, had called for Vosskuhler to be expelled.

Vosskuhler was characterized in the government’s statement as an ardent supporter of the Bosniak political option, who was interfering in the internal issues of the country that had welcomed him, and which expected him to do the job he came here to do.

It was announced that a letter of protest would be sent to the Dutch government demanding an answer as to whether the ambassador was in the country to serve Holland’s Foreign Ministry, or to promote the policies of the Bosniak people.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=10&dd=16&nav_id=54273

[Stefan850]

RS declares Dutch ambassador persona non grata

16 October 2008 | 10:22 | Source: B92
BANJA LUKA -- The Republic of Srpska government (RS) has proclaimed Dutch Ambassador Karel Vosskuhler a persona non grata in the RS.

The entity’s government decided to take the measures after an interview in which Vosskuhler told Sarajevo daily Dnevni Avaz that RS Prime Minister Milorad Dodik was “worse than Belarus dictator Aleksandr Lukashenko.”

According to a statement from the government, the ambassador crossed the line not only of acceptable diplomatic behavior, but good manners, which was why the RS government, via the Foreign Ministry and Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency, had called for Vosskuhler to be expelled.

Vosskuhler was characterized in the government’s statement as an ardent supporter of the Bosniak political option, who was interfering in the internal issues of the country that had welcomed him, and which expected him to do the job he came here to do.

It was announced that a letter of protest would be sent to the Dutch government demanding an answer as to whether the ambassador was in the country to serve Holland’s Foreign Ministry, or to promote the policies of the Bosniak people.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=10&dd=16&nav_id=54273

Good.
The west will probably blame the Serbs for disturbing the relations and not accepting insults and disrespect with our heads down from no less then an ambassador.

[RWR]

Something positive...for a change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LGKPVrCWlg

:)

[The Balkan]

Something positive...for a change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LGKPVrCWlg

:)

Bosnia and Herzegovina has been a top performer in recent years in terms of tourism development; tourist arrivals have grown by an average of 24% annually from 1995 to 2000 (360,758 in 2002).

According to an estimation of the World Tourism Organization, Bosnia and Herzegovina will have the third highest tourism growth rate in the world between 1995 and 2020.

In 2006, Lonely Planet named Sarajevo, the national capital, the 43rd Best City in the World, in its Best Cities Book.

With its #43 spot Sarajevo has come ahead of Dubrovnik, #59, Ljubljana at #84, Bled at #90, Zagreb at #125 and Belgrade at #143, making Sarajevo the best ranking city on the Balkan peninsula behind Athens, Greece.


:D

[The Balkan]

Former US Diplomat Blasts Bosnia Serbs

17 October 2008 Sarajevo _ The Bosnian Serb war-time political and military leadership was “fascistic and genocidal” and the US should have allowed their complete defeat instead of pushing for a compromise, a former US diplomat said.


“Maybe it would have been better and the region would have been more stable if we had allowed their total defeat instead of opting for a compromise,” said the former US ambassador to Croatia, Peter Galbraith, in an interview for Sarajevo's daily Dnevni Avaz published on Friday.

The statement comes as tensions between the Bosnian Serb dominated entity Republika Srpska and the Bosniak-Croat dominated Federation have rarely been more fraught, and Republika Srpska's leadership threatens Bosnia's stability with calls for a referendum on independence.

Galbraith’s statement referred to the last months of the 1992-1995 war in Bosnia, when the Bosnian and Croat armies joined forces and started to push the Bosnian Serbs back from the front lines in central and western parts of the country. The offensive was stopped by the threat of possible NATO air-strikes as Bosnian and Croat armies came only few kilometers from Banja Luka, the capital of the Bosnian Serb entity.

Following the cessation of hostilities, Bosnia's warring parties gathered at a military base in Dayton, Ohio and thrashed out the so-called Dayton peace accord which stopped the war and established Bosnia's current constitutional setup.

Galbraith explained that the US feared that the advancing Bosnian/Croatian armies would have triggered a mass exodus of some 400,000 Bosnian Serbs causing a new “humanitarian catastrophe” in the region. He added that there were “some other reasons” why the US administration decided to halt hostilities and force local leaders to reach a truce through a compromise.

Back in 1995, the international community feared that eventual fall of Banja Luka would have forced Serbia to re-enter the conflict, which could have lead to all-out war between Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia and Montenegro.

[eugenlitwin]

Yeah :-( ,we have absolutely the most idiotic politicians in BiH :slap: ,but on the other hand we are economically in better condition than Serbs and Bosniaks that compensates our lack of numerical and political strength ,but i'm not sure how will that last...

one for sure one day it´d ne on croats left in BiH

PS if Albanians got one extra independent state, i wonder why Serbs could´t ...?, sorry forget Serbs are only bad-guys

[Mordoror]

Galbraith explained that the US feared that the advancing Bosnian/Croatian armies would have triggered a mass exodus of some 400,000 Bosnian Serbs causing a new “humanitarian catastrophe” in the region

That inspires me : Big BS, yah !!


He added that there were “some other reasons” why the US administration decided to halt hostilities and force local leaders to reach a truce through a compromise.

Hum but at least a tinny shred of thruth in its words

[Pejon09]

one for sure one day it´d ne on croats left in BiH

PS if Albanians got one extra independent state, i wonder why Serbs could´t ...?, sorry forget Serbs are only bad-guys

It has nothing to do being bad in ethnic.

First of all Kosova is multi-ethnic or els we would use the Albanian flag.

Secondly, RS is almost pure Serbian, West would never recognize a state created from genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Why dont you think they wont secede? They wont have any support!

[Mordoror]

It has nothing to do being bad in ethnic.

First of all Kosova is multi-ethnic or els we would use the Albanian flag.

Secondly, RS is almost pure Serbian, West would never recognize a state created from genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Why dont you think they wont secede? They wont have any support!

Gneuuuuhhhh (no other word)
May be you should be a little more aware of the states created from/with ethnic cleasing (and please stop to use the word genocide, it seems you don't even know what it means)

per se from former yougoslavia states the most ethnically pures are not Serbia, not even RS but in the order or purity : Slovenia/Croatia/Kosovo
Slovenia was at the very basis "ethnically pure"
Concernning Croatia and Kosovo their almost à 90-95 % ethnic purity should answer to you whom was in fact definitively cleansed or not

[The Balkan]

Gneuuuuhhhh (no other word)
May be you should be a little more aware of the states created from/with ethnic cleasing (and please stop to use the word genocide, it seems you don't even know what it means)

per se from former yougoslavia states the most ethnically pures are not Serbia, not even RS but in the order or purity : Slovenia/Croatia/Kosovo
Slovenia was at the very basis "ethnically pure"
Concernning Croatia and Kosovo their almost à 90-95 % ethnic purity should answer to you whom was in fact definitively cleansed or not

Sounds so good when you say it like that and don't mention Slovenia didn't kick anyone out, it was naturaly like that. Croatia was Croat majority by far as well but yes like 200,00 Serbs ran from Storm. And Kosovo became 90% Albanian over time and through their high birth rates and your horrible ones, and then also people running from war. Which they did to. Except they came back.

RS became 90% Serb by kicking everyone else out in about 2 years if not faster. It didn't exist before the war, and it's borders were determined by the front lines of the war and Serb held teritory. The guy who created it, is one of the biggest war criminals in recent history and is on trial for genocide.

So yea, pretty much impossible to say it wasn't created out of that.

[eugenlitwin]

It has nothing to do being bad in ethnic.

First of all Kosova is multi-ethnic or els we would use the Albanian flag.

Secondly, RS is almost pure Serbian, West would never recognize a state created from genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Why dont you think they wont secede? They wont have any support!


man in your dreams, Serbs ´d never live in a Albanian state there is no other minority left (you know what happend with Gypsy) , so why Albanians always use this term?

[Mordoror]

and don't mention Slovenia didn't kick anyone out, it was naturaly like that.

my sentence :
Slovenia was at the very basis "ethnically pure"

but you are almost right, i should have said that they didn't expelled anyone (or almost anyone except for example JNA families or yougoslavian civil servants whatever ethnic origin they may have)

Concerning the others states you'are derailing my words. I am not stating that RS was a pure innocent angel during the war.
But my answer to Pejon09 was to show that accusating every time only one side (and assuming taht the others sides are fully innocent) is a blatant lying propaganda for the whole 1991-2002 period

a play you are somewaht playing in your post

Croatia was Croat majority by far as well but yes like 200,00 Serbs ran from Storm : does your are stating -by your tone) that 200 000 serbs to be expelled do count for nothing concerning an accusation of ethnic cleasing that you, all other guys from the others republic being Bosna/Croatia/Kosovo are so prompt to howl at the face of the world ??



And Kosovo became 90% Albanian over time
yes they became 88 to 92 % from 2000-2007 when serbians became 8 to 5 %
Funny no ?? and guess what , when a population is lowering its number it is either because it is expelled or killed



(and BTW i have already told you, i am not serb ....but i am bored with the double standard of the only one black lamb in the herd....)

[Stefan850]

Former US Diplomat Blasts Bosnia Serbs

17 October 2008 Sarajevo _ The Bosnian Serb war-time political and military leadership was “fascistic and genocidal” and the US should have allowed their complete defeat instead of pushing for a compromise, a former US diplomat said.


“Maybe it would have been better and the region would have been more stable if we had allowed their total defeat instead of opting for a compromise,” said the former US ambassador to Croatia, Peter Galbraith, in an interview for Sarajevo's daily Dnevni Avaz published on Friday.

The statement comes as tensions between the Bosnian Serb dominated entity Republika Srpska and the Bosniak-Croat dominated Federation have rarely been more fraught, and Republika Srpska's leadership threatens Bosnia's stability with calls for a referendum on independence.

Galbraith’s statement referred to the last months of the 1992-1995 war in Bosnia, when the Bosnian and Croat armies joined forces and started to push the Bosnian Serbs back from the front lines in central and western parts of the country. The offensive was stopped by the threat of possible NATO air-strikes as Bosnian and Croat armies came only few kilometers from Banja Luka, the capital of the Bosnian Serb entity.

Following the cessation of hostilities, Bosnia's warring parties gathered at a military base in Dayton, Ohio and thrashed out the so-called Dayton peace accord which stopped the war and established Bosnia's current constitutional setup.

Galbraith explained that the US feared that the advancing Bosnian/Croatian armies would have triggered a mass exodus of some 400,000 Bosnian Serbs causing a new “humanitarian catastrophe” in the region. He added that there were “some other reasons” why the US administration decided to halt hostilities and force local leaders to reach a truce through a compromise.

Back in 1995, the international community feared that eventual fall of Banja Luka would have forced Serbia to re-enter the conflict, which could have lead to all-out war between Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia and Montenegro.

Just go on expressing anti Serb opinions, first Dutch ambassador then Ahtisari saying Serbian society is guilty not just Mladic and Milosevic, Nobel prize winner of peace acting like a Nazi, judging and blaming the nation as a whole two times. First this:


Ahtisaari's statement that "the Serbs are guilty as a nation" for crimes against Albanians in 1998 and 1999 was made to the Belgrade negotiation team on 8 Augustthen again Ahtisaari, two days ago in an interview for a German newspaper or magazine, I dont know what it is, Tagesspiegel:


''Potpuno pogrešno je reći da su Milošević i Mladić bili jedini krivci. Ako jedno društvo tako postupa, kao što je srpsko učinilo, onda ono mora snositi posledicetranslation: It's completly wrong to say that Milosevic and Mladic are the only guilty ones. If one society acts like that, like the Serb society did, then the society has to face consequences.

And that's the neutral guy between us and Albanias. I am really close to imitate Balkan and say "lol"



And now this guy. Continue like this and half of the Serbs that are being naive and believe that maybe, just maybe, "the west" and our neighbours are not threating us like there enemies will come to there senses and realise the truth. We have powerful enemies, who know we are to weak to fight back so they do to us whatever they want.





(and BTW i have already told you, i am not serb ....but i am bored with the double standard of the only one black lamb in the herd....)

To be honest, I am also confused as much as Balkan how is it possible that you are not bashing Serbs if you are not one of us, we are kinda used to it so it feels strange. Only ones not bashing us are direct enemies of the US that have nothing to do with Serbia, here and there to a different degree some Ortodox nations, most of all Russians and that's more less it.

Everyone els is bashing us, insulting us, attacking us, taking our territories, hurting our people etc etc etc and want us to be humble and apologetic.

If you would want that from us, that's ok, there's nothing we can do about it, but if you expect that from us, you are very very wrong.

[INAT]

Peter Galbraith testified at The Hague in Mid June 2008 that ethnic cleansing of the Krajina was Croat official state policy and that it was planned for Serbs to never return.

http://www.novosti.rs/code/navigate.php?Id=3&status=jedna&vest=123423&datum=2008-06-24 (Serbian language)


He then calls Serbs "fascistic and genocidal.” Anyone else see how savage and hypocritical he is?

translation(not mine)
Former US Ambassador to Croatia Peter Galbraith who testified (http://www.novosti.rs/code/navigate.php?Id=3&status=jedna&vest=123423&datum=2008-06-24) before the Hague tribunal on Monday, confirmed that ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Serbian Krajina region was a deliberate systematic operation and the state policy of Croat leadership, headed by Franjo Tudjman, which led to the mass scale ethnic cleansing in two blitzkrieg operations in 1995, codenamed Storm and Flash.
As a prosecution witness in the case against Tudjman's generals Ante Gotovina, Mladen Markaca and Ivan Cermak -- accused of conducting military operations aimed at forced and permanent removal of Serbian population from the Krajina region, including killing Serbian civilians and prisoners, expulsion, deportation, plunder of Serbian property, merciless destruction of Serbian-populated towns and villages and inhumane and cruel treatment -- Galbraith stressed that this was Croatia's state policy that continued to be enforced afterwards, preventing the expelled Serbs from returning to their homes and land in Croatia.
According to Galbraith, the systematic destruction and plunder of the Serbian property during the Storm, as well as prevention of their return, through the legal and other means undertaken after the operation, took place "because Croat state leadership -- Tudjman and the gang around him -- wanted it to happen, and they were happy when it did happen".


"Once the Serbs were gone, Tudjman didn't want them to return", American diplomat said, adding that Croat state enacted legal measures to prevent the return of the expelled and refugees.
"The systematic destruction of Krajina was either ordered or permitted, but in any case, this was intended by the Croat leadership. I believe this was a deliberate policy of Zagreb government," Galbraith stressed.
He said that Croat war-time president Tudjman, during their numerous meetings before the Operation Storm, was not hiding the fact he considers Serbian population in Krajina region "a strategic threat" to Croatia. His adviser Hrvoje Sarinic called Serbian population in Croatia a "cancer on Croatia's belly", US diplomat noted.
Galbraith confirmed that Tudjman was saying that only "up to 10 percent of Serbs can remain in Croatia", and that Serbian Krajina region ought to be cleansed of Serbs and populated by the diaspora Croats. Emphasizing that his goal was a nationally "homogeneous", i.e. an ethnically clean state, Tudjman was also openly advocating "moving the population" and dividing Bosnia and Herzegovina, Galbraith revealed.
He testified that right after the military offensive on Serbian Krajina began, on August 4, 1995, the mass "torching and pillaging" of the Serbian towns and villages also started. He had personally witnessed these crimes and knows these were not merely "isolated incidents", as Croats refer to them, but organized, massive action, planned at the very top of Croat political and military leadership.
Mass ethnic cleansing of Serbian population from Krajina in Croatia -- Operation Storm -- remains the biggest single act of ethnic cleansing committed on the territory of former Yugoslavia, with over 300,000 Serbs being forced to flee, while more than 14,000 Serbian civilians were killed. It was, therefore, quite convenient that US State Department's Madeleine Albright had miraculously discovered, at the very moment Croats were "purifying" their state, that Serbs have committed a "genocide" in Srebrenica a whole month earlier, so that the focus of the world public could be successfully and instantly taken off the genocidal Croat state.
During his Hague testimony on June 23, Galbraith expressed regret he had lied in the trial against former Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic, claiming that there was no ethnic cleansing during Operation Storm. He said that this was a "technical explanation", because many Serbs left the town of Knin before the savage Croat troops entered (compared (http://www.barnsdle.demon.co.uk/bosnia/sunley.html) to hyenas by a senior British officer who, after his peacekeeping service in Bosnia, said he "would rather find Serbs under his command, as they could be counted on to fight to the last man [while] Croats were no more dependable or courageous than hyenas").
Elsewhere, it was noted that the US State Department representative was present the entire time during Galbraith's testimony, sitting behind the prosecutor, with the task to oversee American diplomat's testimony and prevent him from touching upon other subjects .

[The Balkan]

Peter Galbraith testified at The Hague in Mid June 2008 that ethnic cleansing of the Krajina was Croat official state policy and that it was planned for Serbs to never return.

http://www.novosti.rs/code/navigate.php?Id=3&status=jedna&vest=123423&datum=2008-06-24 (Serbian language)


He then calls Serbs "fascistic and genocidal.” Anyone else see how savage and hypocritical he is?


Small problem. He didn't say Croatian Serbs or Serbs as a whole are genocidal facists, he said:



"The Bosnian Serb war-time political and military leadership was “fascistic and genocidal".


Also I agree with him. Should've let us end it there. And if Serbia entered the conflict then, oh well,at that point we wouldnt've cared much honestly. Plus Kosovo would've seen it as the perfect time to rebel, so you'd have a problem there on both sides. And then for the trifecta, Sandzak would be a complete mess watching Serbia attack Bosnia. Croatia, BiH, Kosovo, Sandzak. Serbia would end up in 4 conflicts at the same time.

[Stefan850]

Small problem. He didn't say Croatian Serbs or Serbs as a whole are genocidal facists


Nevertheless he's still very hypocritical, but I dont blame him. There is no other way to blame it all on Serbs but to be extremely hypocritical.

[The Balkan]

Nevertheless he's still very hypocritical, but I dont blame him. There is no other way to blame it all on Serbs but to be extremely hypocritical.

What's hypocritial about saying Karadzic was a facist, genocidal leader?

He was.

[Stefan850]

What's hypocritial about saying Karadzic was a facist, genocidal leader?

He was.

I'm not talking, arguing about if he's saying the truth or not so there's no need for you to say "he was" if I didn't say "he isn't" or "that guy is lying", that's not what "hypocritical" is.



Peter Galbraith testified at The Hague in Mid June 2008 that ethnic cleansing of the Krajina was Croat official state policy and that it was planned for Serbs to never return.

He didn't say that about them.

And one more interesting quote from the same article. Here's the original




GALBRAJT je, tokom iskaza, izrazio žaljenje zbog toga što je na suđenju Slobodanu Miloševiću pred Tribunalom izjavio da tokom “Oluje” nije bilo etničkog čišćenja.
Tvrdio je da je to bilo “tehničko objašnjenje” zato što su Srbi napustili Knin pre nego što su u grad ušle hrvatske snage.
- Tehnički gledano, ne možete etnički očistiti nekoga ko nije tu, što ne znači da se to ne bi i desilo - rekao je Galbrajt, uz napomenu da nije nameravao da opravdava delovanje hrvatske vojskeand my fast translation


Galbraith said he's sorry for saying on trial of Milosevic that during the "Storm" operation there was no ethnic cleansing. He said that was a technical explanation because the Serbs already left Knin before Croatian army came. "Technicaly speaking you cant ethnicly cleanse someone who is not there" also saying that he didnt intend do justify actions of Croatian army"

He's a funny guy, really. Incredible.

[Mordoror]

@Stefan850


To be honest, I am also confused as much as Balkan how is it possible that you are not bashing Serbs if you are not one of us, we are kinda used to it so it feels strange. Only ones not bashing us are direct enemies of the US that have nothing to do with Serbia, here and there to a different degree some Ortodox nations, most of all Russians and that's more less it.first of all, you would be astonished as high is the amount of French people that are not entitled to blame the serbs for different reasons :
call it atavic reaction to all-out US law and decisions
old french-serbian friendship
support of christian nation against muslim ones
there is a lot of people around me that do not bash serbia. Of course, most of them understand that you are not innocent at all, don't understand me wrong
But the feeling in France is more balanced than may be in other countries

now concerning my personnal point of view, i am from Macedonian origin, bron and raised in France but still i have plenty of relatives and friends-relatives and friens of my own in several republics of former Yu.
Several of my relatives were in the military at the time of the war in Slovenia, Croatia and Serbia and choose to stay in their new land of adoption
So i am a little more aware of the average BBC-CNN fed european about the Yu crisis and may be a little less biaised (as not directly involved ) than the average war "vets" from the different republics

for me as i already stated, noone is fully innocent and if you point an ethnic group you may point the others
and yes even those who make them pure as angels

I will give you a little example at a very little level in order not to start a flame campaign : my uncle who is a teacher in Macedonia had some of its students who were JNA drafties during the slovenian campaign. One of them came back without some fingers on one of its hand. He told my uncle that its APC was hit by a slovenian rocket and that almost all of its fellows were hurt (burns, shrapnels and so on). They were made prisoners by the slovenians but stayed without first aid in a field under sun for several hours. Then came a TV team and then only the Slovenians called ambulance to take care of the wounded
See what i mean : even if everybody see the slovenians as being the ones that never done some dirty things if you dig you can find
hence my conclusion : no one is innocent, no one is pure, it was a civil war and every body knows that it is the dirtiest kind of war

[Stefan850]

@ Mordoror

I salute you with respect. woot

That's all we wished that the western world would understand. Not to divide between the evil, guilty ones, the Serbs and everyone els who is an innocent victim when our people suffered just as much from there hands (and the western "hands") as they did from ours. I am really sorry for all the crimes my people did, for all the innocent civilians that died, someone's mother, father, son, brother etc I really am But constantly blaming of us for everything and making us pay more and more and insulting us day by day is not justice. The west sets free Naser Oric, no one says a word about mujahideen's doing terrible things to Serbians. America gave there support to Operation Storm my girlfriend was 10 years old at that time and got wounded from a shrapnel, almost died, courtesy of united states.

These and many more are things that no one normal would see as a act of friendship, and ok, we don't demand someone's friendship, no one but America can do that. But this is also not an act of neutrality and therefore we don't feel safe surrounded with US allies. Balkan is a small place, without the Serbs feeling safe there will be no stability.