Why M16 instead of M4?

[StarvingStudent47]

A couple places on this site, I've heard it mentioned that the M4 is the standard rifle of most US special forces groups. So I'm wondering, why don't we give it to regulars as well? I was under the impression that regular infantry still favor the M16.

Is it that special forces normally engage at closer ranges than regular infantry, or is there something else to it?

[Kitsune]

Spec Op Units will use any weapon that is best for the job at hand(SeALs for example use quite often the old M14 rifle... its a 7.62mm rifle and has more power than one with the new standard 5.56mm like m16 and such) but there IS a tendency in Commando Units to use smaller weapon with shorter barrel... like the M4.
There are even lighter ones like M4 S, G36C or SiG552 Commando which are only MP sized. Those weapons have less power and accuracy but on the other side not as much recoil and are more handy. They are accurate to 200m and good for close quarter combat making the soldier using it more versatile. And your'e right: Commandos get often closer to the enemy than normal soldiers (sometimes VERY close).
Then of course Spec Ops use much more weapon accessories and stuff than "normal" grunts... optics, night sights, lasers, underbarrel grenade launchers, sound supressors... the works...
So a weapon gets heavier and heavier and its best to start with a small one... to save a pound or two!
But if rifles as the M4 are that good... versatile... light... why not give them to the normal soldiers?
Hehe... welcome to the army! Thats not the way it works. Look... of all weapons the one to be upgraded LAST in the military is the common infantery guy... Even if an rifle is better than M16... well that rifle is good enough for the normal soldier...period.
During the 80ties the U.S. army started a contest: they wanted a Advanced Combat Rifle. There were many interesting rifles tested (among them the Colt ACR firing DUPLEX ammo, the H&K G11 a truly revolutionary rifle and the Steyr ACR using flechette ammunition... all much better (and more expensive) than the M 16) but... nope. M16 stayed. (Same here in Germany... The G 11 had been field tested... got its thumps up... was to be introduced in 1990 as new Army standard rifle... but... german reunification... no money for it + poltitical reasons... G11 canceled. Some G11's hang now in some weapon museum and thats it).
So... you can expect the M16 to stick around for a while... as a rifle its good enough. If something better comes over the horizon... the Spec OP boys get it but the normal soldiers have to wait until the armed forces decide to introduce a new standard rifle. But not for the next 10 years.

[GearGod]

Its issued to infantry also... I beleive theyre just issued to the "high prioroty" infantry such as 82nd 101st 10th MTN etc. check out these pages:

http://www4.aixgaming.com/opend/10th_Mountain_Division

http://www4.aixgaming.com/opend/82nd_Airborne_Division

http://www4.aixgaming.com/opend/101st_Airborne_Division

The ARE issued to infantry! Not all, but the ones that are on the frontlines have them...

[Vance]

Gotta love that high priority :)

[Jedi]

It's all about money. The M4 is starting to be phased into the US Army's infantry units. But that takes a large amount of time and money. As has been mentioned, it is a matter of priority at this point. Units which are most likely to be involved in direct action will be issued the new gear. Then it makes it's way down the line till eventually even the national guard starts getting M4's (in about 20 years).

You can't simply buy 10,000 M4 and hand them out. It just doesn't work that way.

An interesting side note is the decission of the Marine Corp to go to the M16A3 instead of the M4.

[FallenAngel]

Everything Jedi said is true.

The Israrelis bought something like 11,000 M4s from '98 to 2000 from the US. They've only really gotten around to handing them out to isayeret (Spec. Ops) teams.

Also, I'm pretty sure the Marines adopted the M16A4. The A3 has a full-auto option which the US doesn't particularily like, the A4 has the 3-round burst.

an interesting side note #2...I have a friend in the 2nd battalion, 7th marines who said about a year ago, another squad in his company were using these M16 'Light Machine guns (see below) as a possible replacement to the M249 SAW.

http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/orig/m16a2lmg.htm

[Jedi]

Your correct Fallen Angle.. they did adopt the A4... brain fart...

On yet another side note.. can anyone confirm that USN SEALs have started to replace the M14 with the SR-25? I have seen comments similar to this and even a photo of a SEAL with an SR-25.

[k_o_g]

i just heard that SEALs, Ranger and other special forces reveived the gun and putting the gun under test. i am not sure wheather the deal has finished or not

[Alleycat]

On yet another side note.. can anyone confirm that USN SEALs have started to replace the M14 with the SR-25?

Yeah the Guns 2002 combat annual had a large article about Navy SEAL snipers and that was the rifle they were showing.

[...]

If the army does adopt the m4 how do you think they will drill? I almost think that is why the Marines did not adopt the m4. Marines take a lot of pride in drill. I dont know, it was just a thought, what do you guys think?

[GearGod]

Im sure they can drill with the M4A1. I bet they said the same thing about the M14. History can be repeated

[...]

I am just saying it would be pretty damn hard to stand at parade rest with a m4. You would have to almost be on your knees.

[EliteWolf]

god i am in love with the m4a1. its such a good weapon thats user friendly for anybody...ill be furious the day they replace the m16 variants with that bulky plastic OICW thing. yuck

[Apogee]

First off, 101st and 82nd have both completely phased to the M-4, as have just about all light infantry unites.

Second, You don't necessarily have to drill with the weapon you take to the field. When was the last time you saw a soldier in a parade carrying a 240b or 249? Here we had a set of combat weapons (M-4s, M16A2's, M249....) and a set for drill (M14). Seems to work alright.

[Ratamacue]

My brother's friend was recently at the Air Force Academy (dropped out a little while ago), and while they did all their marksmanship with the M16A2, they had an M14 for drill, just to back up what USMA said.

[martinexsquaddie]

The Britsh Army Drill with the Sa80 its just you drill with your rifle as issued there used to be drill for the 9mm sterling SMG as well. Although Guards units look a little funny drilling with the plastic bit of crap

[Matt]

OCIW = crap MARPAT = CRAP M4A1/M203-M16/M203 = AWSOME OLD Marine cammo = AWSOME

Marines should keep the old camo and change to the M4 as standerd issue

[Jedi]

OCIW = crap MARPAT = CRAP M4A1/M203-M16/M203 = AWSOME OLD Marine cammo = AWSOME

Marines should keep the old camo and change to the M4 as standerd issue

The OICW (Objective Individual Combat Weapon), not OCIW, is far from crap. It is a highly advanced weapon. Unfortunately, it may be very far from what is actually right for the soldier in the field.

MARPATs are also far from crap. In fact they are a giant advancement in the United State's approach to camouflage. The usefulness of MARPAT as a camouflage pattern is incredible. If you have not taken the time to see the tests, I suggest you do it.

Your comments smell of ape mentality. Since you probably have know idea what ape mentality is, let me explain:

There was a research project that placed a group of highland apes in a captive area. In this area where was a climbing structure. At the top of the structure was food.

As would be expected, the apes started to climb to get the food. At that point, the researches turned on high powered water hoses, knocking every ape in the enclosure down. After a little time, other apes attempted to climb the structure to reach the food. As before, the researchers hosed them down. The apes, not wanting to be hosed down, stopped going for the food.

The next phase of the research had one of the apes removed an a new ape placed into the environment. The new ape, of course, goes for the food. This time, no water is needed. Instead, the other apes forcefully stop the new ape.

The researchers continue to replace the original apes, one at a time, with the same results each time. Eventually, none of the original apes are present in the enclosure.

Once this point is reached, another new ape is introduced to the environment. All of the existing apes forcefully prevent this new ape from going for the food, despite the fact that they have never personally been hosed down. So why do they stop the new ape? Because that is the way it has always been done.

So, I implore you to evolve beyond primate mentality. Use the God given ability of humans to develop and grow. See changes, such as advancements in weapons and uniforms, as something positive.

[David]

not to defend bob, i think he's an idiot, but i don't see how that ape mentality experiment pertains to bob not wanting to accept the cammie change. as neitzche said, the smart learn from their mistakes, the wise learn from the mistakes of others. but, if i was in that damn pen, i'd convince a stupid monkey(Bob) to climb up their to see what really happens with my own eyes. besides, to monkeys we're probably like gods so why would they want to tempt their fate with god, humans are the same way.

[Vance]

After watching A Few Good Men, I salute Jedi for that post.

[David]

never seen it, isn't that the movie where jack nicholson yells "you want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" or something like that?

[Vance]

Sure is :D

[digrar]

SASR soldiers in Afghanistan were crying out for a rifle that would be capable of firing out past 700/800 metres. The M4 is great, all singing and all dancing with a heap of attachments, nice and light, compact but at the end of the day it has a light projectile and a short barrel and was no good at reaching out at long distances in open mountainous terrain.
Even snipers were trying to ditch 7.62 for .50 so as to get a bit more range.

[David]

we should replace the .223 rifles with the ar10. we'd get more stopping power and range from the 7.62 and plus it wouldn't be a completely different rifle so there wouldn't be that much adjusting and the only downfall i guess would be weight. plus, then we could use the enemies ammo if we needed to.

[Ratamacue]

The AR-10 would have been the standard-issue Infantry rifle for the US Military if the small-caliber revolution didn't come along. The problem with the AR-10 is that when fired fully automatic, the recoil is even worse than that of a full-auto M14 because of its light weight (despite the AR-10's straightline design, pistol grip, and muzzle compensator in some cases).

I would say that the new M4 that NSWC Crane is pumping out in 6.8x43mm is the perfect compensation between 5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO (though I think they should put a larger case on it for higher muzzle velocity/accuracy).

As for why countries are switching to lightweight weapons/ammunition nowadays, it's because the wars of the future will most likely become more and more urban (if the war in Iraq breaks out, you'll see when the Battle for Baghdad comes), where full-auto capability can be a life saver (very difficult to use with a large-caliber weapon). In addition, with lighter ammunition, more ammunition can be carried more comfortably.

[GazB]

"(though I think they should put a larger case on it for higher muzzle velocity/accuracy)"

Higher velocity doesn't improve accuracy... it just increases bore erosion.

All high velocity does is reduce the effect of inaccurately estimating range to the target.

Flechettes are the ultimate high velocity round but suffer from lack of terminal effects (unless it bends on the way in it does very little damage) and poor accuracy... which is why they didn't replace the M16 with the Steyr ACR.

[Ratamacue]

I stand corrected...I always figued that higher velocities reduced the bullet's tendency to be swayed by wind/gravity. Guess not.

[FallenAngel]

actually, the faster it travels, it INCREASES the effects of cross-winds and stuff. It's all having to do with reflexive angels and **** I don't understand, but my Physics teacher explained it.

Also, at a high velocity, a bullet would more likely go straight through an enemy soldier, not causing a horrendously gaping wound that would keep him alive (remember...a wounded soldier is more of a hinderance to the enemy than a dead one...)

Tht being said...why don't we use the green tipped bullets? Something in the Geneva convention against THOSE? (For Us few countries who have actually bothered to follow the Geneva convention...)

Also...I wonder why the military won't consider a more "grunt-friendly" version of the SR25. Give it a 30 rnd mag and that puppy would be just what the Armed Services need. Anyone else think that type of system would work?