Brits Developing Force-fields For Tanks

[Tengu]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/08/19/boffins_invent_grenade_vaporising_electric/

http://users.pandora.be/coolguy/tigershields.jpg

[Gringo]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/08/19/boffins_invent_grenade_vaporising_electric/

http://users.pandora.be/coolguy/tigershields.jpg

We have Challengers not Tigers.

[Tengu]

i know thats why they don't have shields ^^

[AFACadet]

But the Germans had Tigers


Altough I don't get the connection between the Star Trek crew and Nazi's

[Tengu]

hell i just found the damn pic, but the article is more important

[Midtown]

Is that real? because if so, thats pretty hot.

[Gringo]

But the Germans had Tigers


Altough I don't get the connection between the Star Trek crew and Nazi's

i think there was an episode of something with them in Nazi Germany.

[Kilgor]

But the Germans had Tigers


Altough I don't get the connection between the Star Trek crew and Nazi's

i think there was an episode of something with them in Nazi Germany.

Yes.. your connection is logical.

[Roger Rabbit]

I was lucky enough to get the chance to have a look inside a Challenger 2. Fantastic bit of kit, loads of gadgets inside, and the crew seemed to hold it in high regard.

They did look peculiarly German in their black coveralls though.

[Gringo]

But the Germans had Tigers


Altough I don't get the connection between the Star Trek crew and Nazi's

i think there was an episode of something with them in Nazi Germany.

Yes.. your connection is logical.

Thankyou....... Mr Spock.......... Sulu go to warp!!!

[Gringo]

I was lucky enough to get the chance to have a look inside a Challenger 2. Fantastic bit of kit, loads of gadgets inside, and the crew seemed to hold it in high regard.

They did look peculiarly German in their black coveralls though.

Lotz! Lotz! Lotz! Schnell! Something in German!

[Midtown]

EIBLE ICHEN LOBEN! (dunno how the hell to spell it, but its when they say in DOD when a grenade gets throwen near them) Crazy germans.

[Haiw]

EIBLE ICHEN LOBEN! (dunno how the hell to spell it, but its when they say in DOD when a grenade gets throwen near them) Crazy germans.
Now that...does not...make sense.

[Kitsune]

That would be "electromagnetic armor". The idea is not entirely new. Has to be seen wether somebody can actually make this work. However such Armor would be effective against "shaped charge warheads" only, not a true "force field´" like in the science fiction movies.

Gringo wrote:

Lotz! Lotz! Lotz! Schnell! Something in German!
ehem...that would be "Los! Los! Los! Schnell! Etwas in Deutsch" ;)


@Midtown, who wrote:
EIBLE ICHEN LOBEN! (dunno how the hell to spell it, but its when they say in DOD when a grenade gets throwen near them) Crazy germans.
Eible ichen Loben? Well, I frankly have no idea what that is supposed to mean. But it isn't German. Not even close to it. Crazy American.
Possibly those guys in DoD are actually Swiss or Dutch... ;)

[Haiw]

It doesn't mean anything in German either.

[Gringo]

That would be "electromagnetic armor". The idea is not entirely view. Has to be seen wether somebody can actually make this work. However such Armor would be effective against "shaped charge warheads" only, not a true "force field´" like in the science fiction movies.

Gringo wrote:

Lotz! Lotz! Lotz! Schnell! Something in German!
ehem...that would be "Los! Los! Los! Schnell! Etwas in Deutsch" ;)


@Midtown, who wrote:
EIBLE ICHEN LOBEN! (dunno how the hell to spell it, but its when they say in DOD when a grenade gets throwen near them) Crazy germans.
Eible ichen Loben? Well, I frankly have no idea what that is supposed to mean. But it isn't German. Not even close to it. Crazy American.
Possibly those guys in DoD are actually Swiss or Dutch... ;)

thanks for the spelling correction.

[moughoun]

Khannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn :oops:

[Gringo]

Khannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn :oops:

mighty odd that. The echo goes into space. So in space one can hear you scream.

[ShadowNeo]

Sounds cool :).

I got to mooch around in a Challenger 2 and a Warrior today at the Military Show at the Gordon Barracks in Aberdeen, also had a poke around a Scimitar and an AS90 :D.

Was a good laugh watching the Royal Marines demonstrating hand to hand combat, or should I say, foot to groin combat rofl .

[GazB]

Interesting idea but:

It sounds bizarre, but the paper reports that in a recent demonstration an armoured personnel carrier protected by the system withstood repeated attacks by rocket grenades that would normally have destroyed it many times over.

Doesn't that sort of rely on the grenade launcher using a copper liner in its warhead? Most modern HEAT liners are not magnetic and therefore are less likely to be effected by a strong electric current.

[Sabre]

This isn't 'electromagnetic' armour beyond the fact that electrical currents create magnetic fields.

Magnetic fields have nothing to do with it at all. It is simply electrical.

The copper penetrator is metal...

...the first (earthed) armour plate is metal...

...the second (charged) plate is metal...

...if the copper touches both plates at the same time it allows an electrical current to flow through it...

...the copper can't withstand the energy this current gives to it so...

...poof!...up in smoke it goes and it fails to penetrate further.

The two armour plates are separate so that a massive potential difference is created between them, thereby forming a capacitor.

As long as the penetrator is metal (and let's face it, it has to be) it doesn't matter if it is magnetic (copper isn't, it's actually diamagnetic, so it is very weakly repelled by magnetic fields).

[gbos]

I am a little rusty in thermodynamics so don’t judge me strictly :)

Copper is supposed to have a melting point at 1083 degrees Celsius and a boiling point about 2300 degrees Celsius. In order for this field to be effective it must deliver enough energy to convert copper from liquid to vapor phase. Copper specific heat when it is in solid condition is about 0.5 KJ/Kg/Kelvin degree. In liquid state it must be even more. So in order to heat copper for say 1000 degrees you will need at least 0.5 KJ per gram plus the energy needed for transition of face from liquid to vapor ( I forgot the English term). And that is without counting the possibility that this capacitor will be sort circuit by the melting armor itself. So, is this achievable in practice or there are more cost effective measures available? Any thoughts?

[MEGR]

How the hell did spock fit in as a nazi?

[big80a2]

I am a little rusty in thermodynamics so don’t judge me strictly :)

Copper is supposed to have a melting point at 1083 degrees Celsius and a boiling point about 2300 degrees Celsius. In order for this field to be effective it must deliver enough energy to convert copper from liquid to vapor phase. Copper specific heat when it is in solid condition is about 0.5 KJ/Kg/Kelvin degree. In liquid state it must be even more. So in order to heat copper for say 1000 degrees you will need at least 0.5 KJ per gram plus the energy needed for transition of face from liquid to vapor ( I forgot the English term). And that is without counting the possibility that this capacitor will be sort circuit by the melting armor itself. So, is this achievable in practice or there are more cost effective measures available? Any thoughts?

well it worked in reallife. But liquid coper can make a shortcut. I think it works on the principle yuo dicripe. And it kinda be like a big welder that vaporize the coper. maybe some parts will vaporize and the others will disingrate because of a diffrent temprature. There fore they will not be able to penatrate the second layer of armor.

some practical issues that came to my mind are:
Is it possible to have a couple of short circuits over a short period?
So you could stop multiple rounds.
Because the way the system looks to work no there must be a kind of buildup charge (like in your camera flasher... makes 300V from a 1,5 volt battery but needs to charge).

Does this system aplly to other metals as well?
since if the above is correct every metal has it own melting point etc.

putting stowage onto your vehicle will also become a problem. They cant contain any electronics unless these are shielded.

[Kitsune]

This isn't 'electromagnetic' armour beyond the fact that electrical currents create magnetic fields.

Magnetic fields have nothing to do with it at all. It is simply electrical.

The copper penetrator is metal...

...the first (earthed) armour plate is metal...

...the second (charged) plate is metal...

...if the copper touches both plates at the same time it allows an electrical current to flow through it...

...the copper can't withstand the energy this current gives to it so...

...poof!...up in smoke it goes and it fails to penetrate further.

The two armour plates are separate so that a massive potential difference is created between them, thereby forming a capacitor.

As long as the penetrator is metal (and let's face it, it has to be) it doesn't matter if it is magnetic (copper isn't, it's actually diamagnetic, so it is very weakly repelled by magnetic fields).´

Oh well. "Electric" and "magnetic" are two aspects of the same force, the electromagnetic one. And the "repelling" is achieved (or would be achieved if it is working) through induction effects, who create eddies in the hot jet of vapor which shaped charge warheads use to penetrate armor. These eddies help to disperse the jet of gas (a bit) and thereby reduce its efficency. That is at least as I understood it. And if that is correct you can actually use the term "electromagnetic armor" since induction is an electromagnetic effect...but what the hell. (Even if your explanation is correct...the very instead the current flowing through the copper is created, there will be an magnetic field, because a current creates precisly that, according to Amperes law. So you have magnetism in any case. Hehe.)

But call it what you like. :D

[gbos]

Another think I noticed about this article:

“ When armaments like RPG-7 grenades hit a tank, a "shaped-charge" warhead blasts a jet of hot copper into a target at around 1,000mph - capable of slicing through a foot of conventional solid steel armour. “

This number 1,000mph seems way too low. Is this correct? :(

[Marsh]

Hi,
Electrical armour is a concept that dates back to the 1970s. Those people with an interest in ballistics will have heard of "Walker Plates". The general idea is that electrically charged, spaced plates, are mounted in front of an AFVs baseline armour, as a form of stand off protection. Electrical armour is conceptually similar to conventional armour as regards its working principal, in that it does not intercept the threat nor prevent its detonation. It defeats the threat by preventing penetration. When pierced by a shaped charge's jet, a poweful electrical charge shorts between the two spaced plates. This produces an intense electromagnetic field which in turn inparts a rotation to the jet and thus disrupts and fragments it. the jets remnants are absorbed by the vehicle's structural armour.

While the basic technological issues of electrical armour are well understood, until very recently the bulky batteries and capacitors required made it impractical. The breakthrough that the Brits have made, is that the Warrior's own standard battery and electrical system are sufficent to power the electrical armour against repeated attacks in rapid succession. Video imagery of the trials were first declassifed at a conference in September 2003. I was lucky enough to attend that conference and was greatly impressed by the British efforts in the field.
:D
cheers
Marsh

[Kitsune]

Thx Marsh, for your explanation.

[GazB]

The copper penetrator is metal...

...the first (earthed) armour plate is metal...

...the second (charged) plate is metal...

...if the copper touches both plates at the same time it allows an electrical current to flow through it...

...the copper can't withstand the energy this current gives to it so...


Sorry I meant good conductor of electrical current.

Copper is used to transmit electricity because it is particluarly good at it. ie very low resistance.

Many metals are not good conductors of electricity, but if the current is high enough even wood will not stop it. I have seen someone use a long piece of wood to try to free a kite stuck in high tension wires. We later found out they were carrying 60,000 volts. As soon as he touched the line with the piece of dry wood a bright flash of light jumped down the outside of the wood and hit him square in the chest. He had burns from his wrist to his ankle. The electricity had travelled down the outside of the branch, not through it.


...the copper can't withstand the energy this current gives to it so...

...poof!...up in smoke it goes and it fails to penetrate further.


Or could it be that the electric current removes all of the electrons (as electricity is the flowing of electrons) and the remaining material has a overall positive charge that repells itself resulting in the dissapation of the penetrator.


The two armour plates are separate so that a massive potential difference is created between them, thereby forming a capacitor.


Because the way the system looks to work no there must be a kind of buildup charge (like in your camera flasher... makes 300V from a 1,5 volt battery but needs to charge).


Interesting points that raise the issue of the Rockets use of multiple HEAT charges?


vapor ( I forgot the English term)

The English term for Vapour is Gas.


This number 1,000mph seems way too low. Is this correct?

The RPG-7 rocket itself flies at about 350m/s which is about mach 1 or about 1,000mph. The jet itself will be travelling closer to about 5-6 times faster at least. (for example RDX "burns" at about 6km/s).