US Visa Policy Upsets Athens

[achilles]

Athens slammed an unexpected decision by Washington yesterday to refuse to drop visa requirements for Greeks traveling to the USA for business or pleasure.

The National Security Council reportedly stepped in to put an end to months of negotiations between the two countries, citing “political reasons” for not lifting the requirement for Greek travelers.

Commentators speculated that the move was in retaliation for Greece blocking the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia’s bid to enter NATO earlier this year.

“Greece has never accepted the logic of the exertion of pressure between allies,” said Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Giorgos Koumoutsakos said the decision was “unjustified” and did nothing to help promote relations between citizens of the two countries. He said he hoped this was not Washington’s final decision.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_2_11/10/2008_101213
Bush et al, consistently continue their anti-hellenic policy.

[NowPlaying]

Huh, today Bush announced that Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia and South Korea gets visa free entry in USA. Why can't Greece which is much richer than most of mentioned here can't get visa free regime with the US?

[bobunio]

I guess Hellas did something to piss them off...

[Winger]

I guess Hellas did something to piss them off...

They're playing games. Either that or our Windex supply is running too low.

[Jobu]

I don't think anyone deserves visa-free entry into the United States.

I'd be happier to remove that from everyone else rather than extend it further by giving it to Greece, which by the way is fiercely anti-american on a par with most Arab nations.

[tyovan]

I don't understand why Poland isn't on the list after how they've helped us with Afghanistan, Iraq, and missile defense.

[Andrew Chalmers]

I don't think anyone deserves visa-free entry into the United States.

I'd be happier to remove that from everyone else rather than extend it further by giving it to Greece, which by the way is fiercely anti-american on a par with most Arab nations.

:roll: The Visa Waiver Programs are reciprocal. We get to visit their countries without a visa for business or pleasure for up to 90 days. Yes - no one "deserves" visa free entry into the United States, just like no one deserves to have fresh water or money to pay the bills. But locking ourselves in and keeping others out certainly doesn't fit within the economic and political tradition of this country. "

Also - why the hostility against visa waiver programs? Don't like tourists? Foreign investment in the United States?

[Andrew Chalmers]

I don't understand why Poland isn't on the list after how they've helped us with Afghanistan, Iraq, and missile defense.

Bulgaria, Poland, Malta, Romania, and Greece are all candidate countries... basically they have to work out some sort of deal involving the sharing of personal identity & intelligence info for their respective passport holders...

[justasoldier]

Huh, today Bush announced that Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia and South Korea gets visa free entry in USA. Why can't Greece which is much richer than most of mentioned here can't get visa free regime with the US?
Richer?

Greece rated EU's poorest country
Greece is the poorest country in the 15-nation European Union and Luxembourg the richest, while Epirus is the poorest region in the EU and Hamburg the richest.
This data was included in the special bulletin published by the EU statistical service on the "rich and poor" in the EU with data referring to 1994.
The bulletin stated that in 1994 the average income per capita in the EU in Ecu and Agricultural Potential Units (APU) amounted to 16,644. On the basis of 100 for the EU, Greece has an income per capita of 65 (7,193 in Ecu and 10,799 in APU). Portugal h ad an income per capita of 67 (7,224 in Ecu and 11,348 in APU), while Luxembourg has an income per capita of 169 (30,446 in Ecu and 28,069 in APU).
Eight regions in the EU exceed the average income per capita 1.5 times. Epirus is the poorest region with an income per capita of 43 (5,211 Ecu and 7,112 APU), followed by the French overseas territory, the Azores and the Northern Aegean.
https://www.hri.org/news/greek/apeen/1997/97-04-29_1.apeen.html

[SkyUS]

I heard about this on TV couple of hours ago. As far as i can remember Poland and other countries are not able to participate in this visa waiver program because there are too many nationals overstaying their visa limits/terms in the USA.

I am so sick of this **** already, Polish government is whining about this issue of visas for couple of years already. Whining won't do good, so how about take that time wasted on whining and actually so something constructive in terms of deals with USA.

[Ordie]

:roll: The Visa Waiver Programs are reciprocal. We get to visit their countries without a visa for business or pleasure for up to 90 days. Yes - no one "deserves" visa free entry into the United States, just like no one deserves to have fresh water or money to pay the bills. But locking ourselves in and keeping others out certainly doesn't fit within the economic and political tradition of this country. "

Also - why the hostility against visa waiver programs? Don't like tourists? Foreign investment in the United States?

X2

I find it ironic that up until recently, Americans (especially the military) could travel abroad without passports.

[Vorian]

Richer?


Are you blind? The article you posted mentions 15-nation EU!!!!! Which is some years old.


And anyway, I don't really understand why we still need a VISA. We are supposed to be allies and there is a million Greek-Americans that travel between our countries, not to mention Greek studying in American colleges and American tourists coming to Greece. Is it because the public is anti-American? Hell, 90% of the world is.

[achilles]

I don't think anyone deserves visa-free entry into the United States.

I'd be happier to remove that from everyone else rather than extend it further by giving it to Greece, which by the way is fiercely anti-american on a par with most Arab nations.

Hell, we are...ever wondered why?

[achilles]

I guess Hellas did something to piss them off...

Thats exactly the case. This is our "punishment" for vetoing FYROM and thus preventing its entrance to NATO, in contrast to the Republican plans.

Soon there will be no Bush, and no republicans whatsoever, which sets new grounds on which FYROM will be dealt with.

On edit: thing is, noone will lose his/her sleep over the visa thingy, its not the visa per se that annoyes us, its apparently the overall american stance against us.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Hell, we are...ever wondered why?Yes, explain.

[achilles]

Yes, explain.

1. A long-lasting pro Turkish stance that's been going on for more than 5 decades now.

2. Ferocious support to FYROM, a weak statelet raising all sorts of irredentist claims against Greek soil, history and terminology.

3. Practically unconditional support to Albania, another not-so-friendly neighbor.

4. In case you havent noticed, the US has been explitely supporting everybody surrounding the Greek borders, BUT Greece. At least on material issues.

5. The bloody partition of Cyprus with the blessings of Dr. Henry Kissinger

6. Because of the colonels' military junta led by G. Papadopoulos (a CIA agent) between 1967 and 1974, which had devastating consequences for the cohesion of the Greek society's tissue.

7. Because many Greeks know that the non-rogue state called USA, has historically supported guys like Pol Pot, the abovementioned George Papadopoulos, Sukharto, Pinochet, Saddam Hussein, the Kontra regime and the list can go on indefinitely.

8. Because of the endless hypocricy of G.W. Bush and his administration, the Iraq war and the so-called "war on terror".

9. For your unconditional and unbalanced support to Israel.

10. For making Greece a nest of american spies, crooks and snitches.

11. For devastating Serbia, while the crimes of Bosnian Muslims, Croats and Albanians were left uncommented.

12. For creating Kosovo, at the expense of Serbia again, another puppet statelet run by ex-KLA thugs, drugs and arms traffickers.

Other than that, thanks for the Marshal Plan and for saving us from the Soviet communist monster. The problem is that we never signed that we would become american bitches after WWII.

I believe this makes a bit more clear now the Greek anti-americanism.

[Hollis]

I believe this makes a bit more clear now the Greek anti-americanism.


You talk about hypocrisy, yet ignore your anti-USA, anti-Turkey, anti-Israel etc sentiments. So sure blame it all on the USA. Maybe there are better approaches to the issue, then playing victim.

[SkyUS]

from http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1255.html


How does a country qualify to participate in the Visa Waiver Program (VWP)?
In order to be designated to participate in the Visa Waiver Program, countries must meet certain legislatively established criteria, as set forth in the Immigration and Nationality Act (U.S.C. 1187), the Border Security Act, and the Enhanced Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act (EBSVERA).
Among these criteria are requirements that:


Governments provide reciprocal visa-free travel for U.S. citizens (90 days for tourism or business purposes);
Governments issue secure machine-readable passports that satisfy internationally accepted standards;
Governments certify that they have a program to incorporate biometric identifiers into their passports in accordance with International Civil Aviation Organization standards;
Governments certify that they report the theft of blank passports on a timely basis to the U.S. Government, and do so in practice;
The country must have a very low nonimmigrant refusal rate (as explained in Section 217 (c)(2)(A) of the Immigration and Nationality Act); and
The incidence of nationals of the country traveling as nonimmigrant visitors who are denied admission, withdraw their application, and violate the terms of a VWP admission is less than two percent of the total number of nonimmigrant nationals traveling to the U.S. during the previous fiscal year.

In addition to these specific criteria for participation in the Visa Waiver Program, Section 217 of the INA also requires that the Department of Homeland Security in consultation with the Secretary of State evaluate the effect that a country’s designation as a VWP participant would have on the law enforcement and security interests of the United States, including interests related to enforcement of immigration laws and the existence and effectiveness of extradition agreements and procedures. In order for a country to be designated as a VWP participant, a determination must be made that such interests would not be compromised by the designation of the country.
Specific factors to be considered in such a review are not established in the legislation. However, in the past the following types of issues have been considered:


Security of a country’s passport application, production and delivery processes;
Security of passports and other documents used to demonstrate identity and citizenship, and incidence of fraud or misuse involving such documents;
Nationality and citizenship laws, and application of such laws;
Existence of security and law enforcement threats in the country (terrorist activities, organized crime, money laundering, human and drug trafficking, etc.), and efforts to address such threats;
Immigration controls and alien smuggling activities in the country, and efforts to address such threats;
Stability of the government politically and economically;
Degree of cooperation with the U.S. and other international partners on law enforcement issues, including extradition.

[Mordoror]

This is our "punishment" for vetoing FYROM and thus preventing its entrance to NATO, in contrast to the Republican plans.

are you sure you are not linking something that has not to be linked ?

After all if USA would have liked to "punish" you as you say they may have done if several months ago and by several different ways

May be should you ask yourself if the Greek all visa and passeport thing is encompassing all the things asked by the Homeland security state (for example a high security biometric passport)
You should know that american authorities are somewhat not very smooth on regulation deviations about that

so before throwing an all out "that's because they don't like us because we are not their bitches" wonder yourself if it is not a simple procedure issue and nothing else

[Breakfast in Vegas]

1. A long-lasting pro Turkish stance that's been going on for more than 5 decades now.

2. Ferocious support to FYROM, a weak statelet raising all sorts of irredentist claims against Greek soil, history and terminology.

3. Practically unconditional support to Albania, another not-so-friendly neighbor.

4. In case you havent noticed, the US has been explitely supporting everybody surrounding the Greek borders, BUT Greece. At least on material issues.

5. The bloody partition of Cyprus with the blessings of Dr. Henry Kissinger

6. Because of the colonels' military junta led by G. Papadopoulos (a CIA agent) between 1967 and 1974, which had devastating consequences for the cohesion of the Greek society's tissue.

7. Because many Greeks know that the non-rogue state called USA, has historically supported guys like Pol Pot, the abovementioned George Papadopoulos, Sukharto, Pinochet, Saddam Hussein, the Kontra regime and the list can go on indefinitely.

8. Because of the endless hypocricy of G.W. Bush and his administration, the Iraq war and the so-called "war on terror".

9. For your unconditional and unbalanced support to Israel.

10. For making Greece a nest of american spies, crooks and snitches.

11. For devastating Serbia, while the crimes of Bosnian Muslims, Croats and Albanians were left uncommented.

12. For creating Kosovo, at the expense of Serbia again, another puppet statelet run by ex-KLA thugs, drugs and arms traffickers.

Other than that, thanks for the Marshal Plan and for saving us from the Soviet communist monster. The problem is that we never signed that we would become american bitches after WWII.

I believe this makes a bit more clear now the Greek anti-americanism.Thanks for the explanation. It is certainly food for thought. Now I'll ask myself why the above was done? What reasoning was behind the above decisions? What role has Greece played in its actions or inactions or political position? Maybe I'll find some answers. Maybe not. In any case, I'll look at the US-Greece relationship a bit closer.

Frankly I was surprised that Greeks required visas. That seems to be the tip of the iceberg.

[Mr.Flint]

Israelis need a visa to enter US too, but i dont see us whining about that like the Greeks... HTFU Greeks.

[LineDoggie]

Sounds like Whining, with typical Bush =Satan horseapples to me.....:roll:

[achilles]

You talk about hypocrisy, yet ignore your anti-USA, anti-Turkey, anti-Israel etc sentiments. So sure blame it all on the USA. Maybe there are better approaches to the issue, then playing victim.

Is this what you made of my post? Wrong, on all.

I simply explained the phenomenon of anti-americanism in Greece and quite accurately, allow me to say.

I certainly did not victimize Greece, never would, since i strongly believe that we are responsible for most of our serious problems.

As for our anti-Turkish sentiments, this is a tit for tat play. We hate the Turks no more than the Turks hate us, and i am talking on a political level. I am sure, and have witnessed that more than once myself, that any average cool headed Greek has no malicious sentiments against any cool headed Turk, and vice versa. This is how it is. Its a political thing, not a problem among simple, average people. I, for one thing, have Turkish friends.

And i cannot really understand your attempt to paint my post as "anti-semitic". We dont have the US because it supports Isreal, we do so because the US does so DISPROPORTIONATELY. I know that, you know that, the whole world knows that.

Therefore i am not playing victim and i definitely did not express myself the way you projected. I explained anti-Americanism in Greece.

And since you commented on hypocricy let me give you my view along with a stark example of true hypocricy. Hypocricy takes place every time G.W Bush, or any other member of the admin, opens up his mouth and speaks about "freedom", "democracy" and "liberty", and when every single American rushes into labelling other countries as being "terrorist" or "rogue" when you have supported all those guys, among others, throughout your recent history:


Abacha, General Sani
Amin, Idi
Banzer, Colonel Hugo
Batista, Fulgencio Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal
Botha, P.W. South Africa
Branco, General Humberto
Cedras, Raoul
Cerezo, Vinicio
Chiang Kai-Shek
Cordova, Roberto Suazo
Christiani, Alfredo
Diem, Ngo Dihn
Doe, General Samuel
Duvalier, Francois
Duvalier, Jean Claude
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King
Franco, General Francisco
Hassan II
Marcos, Ferdinand
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez
Mobutu Sese Seko
Montt, General Efrain Rios
Noriega, General Manuel
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza
Papadopoulos, George
Park Chung Hee
Pinochet, General Augusto
Pol Pot
Rabuka, General Sitiveni
Montt, General Efrain Rios
Salassie, Halie Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira
Somoza, Anastasio Jr.
Somoza, Anastasio, Sr.
Smith, Ian Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo
Suharto, General
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas
Videla, General Jorge Rafael
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed

....and...

Saddam Hussein? I certainly do not claim that the US is the sole hypocritical country or that its history is not characterized by glorious moments/periods. I focus on your post-war history and how this is related with hypocricy and deception.


Israelis need a visa to enter US too, but i dont see us whining about that like the Greeks... HTFU Greeks.

You are missing the point Flint. We dont give a damn about visas. We are annoyed by the motivation behind that and the message transmitted from a supposedly "good friend and ally".

[Mr.Flint]

You are missing the point Flint. We dont give a damn about visas. We are annoyed by the motivation behind that and the message transmitted from a supposedly "good friend and ally".
No, you are annoyed by a speculation, that suits your world view perfectly.

[SkyUS]

^
x2

If countries don't meet the admission requirements they don't get in the visa waiver program.

[achilles]

^
x2

If countries don't meet the admission requirements they don't get in the visa waiver program.

Which admission requirements Greece does not comply with?


Thanks for the explanation. It is certainly food for thought. Now I'll ask myself why the above was done? What reasoning was behind the above decisions? What role has Greece played in its actions or inactions or political position? Maybe I'll find some answers. Maybe not. In any case, I'll look at the US-Greece relationship a bit closer.

Frankly I was surprised that Greeks required visas. That seems to be the tip of the iceberg.

I appreciate you didn't rush into decorating my post or my world views with absurd labels.

Definitely Greece has played a role in most of the above, and quite detrimental in certain cases, as well as other countries. For example, the partition of Cyprus was not the outcome of the US policy only. Turkey is to blame, Cyprus is to blame (and i am referring to the Greek-Cypriots), Britain is to blame and of course the ufortunate handling of the Greek military dictatorship of the time.

[futurepilot2004]

Israelis need a visa to enter US too, but i dont see us whining about that like the Greeks... HTFU Greeks.

Yeah but Israel isn`t europe....Greece is one of the only european countries not incuded. Doesn`t really make a lot of sense.

Andorra, Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic Denmark, Estonia , Finland, France (including French overseas territories), Germany, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia Liechtenstein, Lithuania [9], Luxembourg, Malta, Monaco, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom

[Weasel]

Hope that Europe will find an adequate response.

[Mordoror]

Andorra, Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic Denmark, Estonia , Finland, France (including French overseas territories), Germany, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia Liechtenstein, Lithuania [9], Luxembourg, Malta, Monaco, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom

Ok in that list somes are not member of EU

and some that are members are not included like : Bulgaria, Cyprus, Poland, Romania

so it is not a matter of being EU member or not (or being european at all)

[LineDoggie]

Hope that Europe will find an adequate response.
Why? it's Greece that is the issue, or do you doubt they're capable to speak for themselves?

[Weasel]

Why? it's Greece that is the issue, or do you doubt they're capable to speak for themselves?

Greece is part of Europe. What you do to a member you do to all members.

[LineDoggie]

Greece is part of Europe. What you do to a member you do to all members.

France and Poland were parts of Europe. I seem to remember Germany not bothered by that.

[Weasel]

France and Poland were parts of Europe. I seem to remember Germany not bothered by that.

What are you talking about?

[Mordoror]

Trolling ?? (if he refers to WWII as i am entitled to understand ...)

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Greece is part of Europe. What you do to a member you do to all members.And what any member of the EU does shall be "adequately responded to" by the US or any other country for that matter?

Interesting precedent.

[Weasel]

Trolling ?? (if he refers to WWII as i am entitled to understand ...)

He can´t be that stupid.

[Weasel]

And what any member of the EU does shall be "adequately responded to" by the US or any other country for that matter?

Interesting precedent.

Either Europe speaks with one voice or Europe doesn´t. I prefer the first way.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Either Europe speaks with one voice or Europe doesn´t. I prefer the first way.Understand your point, but doubt it's realistic. Nonetheless, I trust you understand what I am saying as well.

If France starts a war in Rwanda for example, does Germany send troops?

[SilentType]

Well, I don't get it I've never heard a pro-American thing come out of the mouths of any of them so why would they want to come to the USA anyways?

[SilentType]

Either Europe speaks with one voice or Europe doesn´t. I prefer the first way.

Yes, why have those elected and most accountable to the people run the destiny of individual nations in Europe?

:roll:

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Well, I don't get it I've never heard a pro-American thing come out of the mouths of any of them so why would they want to come to the USA anyways?You obviously know very few Europeans or simply don't choose to listen.

Much of Europe is pro-American... or better said, would LIKE to be pro-American. American politics make this nearly impossible however.

There is a strong liberal element in Europe that will always be anti-American, this is true. In fact, much of this liberal element is even anti-Europe. They are a bunch of self-hating, self-serving, self-righteous clowns.

However even Europe's moderate and conservative elements were pushed away during the Bush years and much of the damage done will take a generation or two to repair.

A majority of Europe's youth is either anti-American or very suspicious of America. America is largely to blame for this unfortunate phenomenon.

[Weasel]

Understand your point, but doubt it's realistic. Nonetheless, I trust you understand what I am saying as well.

If France starts a war in Rwanda for example, does Germany send troops?

What I said: speak with one voice. There shouldn´t be national armies but one common european army because it´s only one border to defend.

[Player]

Well Greece is East European country (like Poland, Bulgaria etc) which is not as rich and as developed as Western European countries so I guess this explains it.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

What I said: speak with one voice. There shouldn´t be national armies but one common european army because it´s only one border to defend.Well keep dreaming. Personally I believe that Europe doesn't speak with one voice and never will, nor should.

Ireland isn't Greece isn't Poland isn't Portugal.

[Indiana Jones]

What I said: speak with one voice. There shouldn´t be national armies but one common european army because it´s only one border to defend.
How do you reckon Europe, being a vastly diversified cultural and socioeconomical entity could possibly "speak with one voice", and do such without grossly neglecting the political sovereignty of very large parts of its constituency ?
Willkommen im Wolkenkukucksheim.
Not necessarily a desirable state of affairs, either.

[Weasel]

Well keep dreaming. Personally I believe that Europe doesn't speak with one voice and never will, nor should.

Ireland isn't Greece isn't Poland isn't Portugal.

Sad to hear you don´t have dreams and visions for the future.

[Vorian]

Well Greece is East European country (like Poland, Bulgaria etc) which is not as rich and as developed as Western European countries so I guess this explains it.

Hey, we are not France but comparing us with Bulgaria is a little too much.

[PVJ]

Weasel its easy for you to speak of United Europe and a united european army, Germanys got the largest population in Europe. You think small countries like Ireland, or Slovenia will have any influence or say? What will be the official language of the national European army? Wont all soldiers have to be fluent in about 25 -30 languages?/end sarcasm].

[Mordoror]

Greece GDP for 2008 is :$314.6 billion

Poland GDP for 2008 is : $420.3 billion

Bulgaria GDP for 2008 is : $39.61 billion

It is clear that it is not an economical problem
(Portugal who is eligible for the US non visa system has a GDP : $223.3 billionfor 2008 so lower than Greece)

[Weasel]

Weasel its easy for you to speak of United Europe and a united european army, Germanys got the largest population in Europe. You think small countries like Ireland, or Slovenia will have any influence or say? What will be the official language of the national European army? Wont all soldiers have to be fluent in about 25 -30 languages?/end sarcasm].

Time will tell. But it´s already fact that more and more people speak english, work in foreign european countries and armies work together (e.g. dutch-german corps). This development will continue I hope.

[PVJ]

Time will tell. But it´s already fact that more and more people speak english, work in foreign european countries and armies work together (e.g. dutch-german corps). This development will continue I hope.

So your in favor of getting rid of all languages in Europe and just have everyone use English? Great, Some languages have been spoken for thousands of years but whatever, lets get rid of them, who cares right?

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Sad to hear you don´t have dreams and visions for the future.I do. A monocultural, monopolitical Europe however isn't one of them.

[Raven_gr]

Usually developments of that magnitude don't develop in such a short period of time. Many times it is the developments that happen all around that lead to an effect. For example the economic and military collapse of the Roman Empire led in time to the Holly Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire which took the reigns of the West. Nowadays an economic collapse of the U.S economy and the failure of actions taken by the various economies in the E.U can lead to a more centralized role of the European economies as a whole with unprecedented authority accumulated to the European Central Bank, leading to a more federalized or outright federalized European economy.

[Weasel]

So your in favor of getting rid of all languages in Europe and just have everyone use English? Great, Some languages have been spoken for thousands of years but whatever, lets get rid of them, who cares right?

Your great-grandchildren will give a **** about a language one of their ancestors spoke.

[Vorian]

Eu will never have a united language. Reason: Germans and French are too stuborn to accept English.


EDIT: We are awfully off-topic

[widi243]

Greece GDP for 2008 is :$314.6 billion

Poland GDP for 2008 is : $420.3 billion

Bulgaria GDP for 2008 is : $39.61 billion

It is clear that it is not an economical problem
(Portugal who is eligible for the US non visa system has a GDP : $223.3 billionfor 2008 so lower than Greece)

Of course isn't economical problem. It's legal problem. US have some clear criterion to acces to the Visa Weaver programm and nor Greece, nor Poland dosen't fulfil it. We could like it or not but it's theirs soveriegn decision.

[widi243]

Well Greece is East European country (like Poland, Bulgaria etc) which is not as rich and as developed as Western European countries so I guess this explains it.

Southern it's more accurate. Look at the map.

[SOG]

I certainly do not claim that the US is the sole hypocritical country or that its history is not characterized by glorious moments/periods. I focus on your post-war history and how this is related with hypocricy and deception.

You call it hypocrisy but don't seem to understand the fact countries change and times change. Old enemies can become fast friends. Also many on that list may not have been the best people to work with at the time but it was all we could work with to combat a greater enemy to the US. Like Saddam. In fact that is so simple to understand historically I can't believe you would list him.

So in other words you have simply posted a typical "liberal hit list" of unscrupulous people the US has worked with yet you do not care about the rhyme or reason as long as it sharpens your dull axe so you can grind on.

[SOG]

Eu will never have a united language. Reason: Germans and French are too stuborn to accept English.
EDIT: We are awfully off-topic

Nah. Second cousin once removed from the original topic. Still in the family ;)

[Umbro2914]

not to sound like the devils advocat.. but i mean you did go against US intentions in vetoing FYROM... what did you expect? a pat on the back? This is diplomacy at its best. Your directly oposed one of the Bush Administrations measures / actions... so why should you be rewarded? Besides dont feel to bad, several countries including Poland still need Visas. So were all in the same boat ;)

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

The US VISA system is a joke anyway.

I can't go to the US and work in my cousins company since you can't get working/holiday visas.

With the size of the US and it's population you could literally create hundreds of thousands of jobs in the tourism sector if you made 12 month working holiday visas available.

The back baking industry is worth billions here in Australia.

[Vorian]

not to sound like the devils advocat.. but i mean you did go against US intentions in vetoing FYROM... what did you expect? a pat on the back? This is diplomacy at its best. Your directly oposed one of the Bush Administrations measures / actions... so why should you be rewarded? Besides dont feel to bad, several countries including Poland still need Visas. So were all in the same boat ;)



Greeks are proud people in general, too proud sometimes to realise that our country is not very important in the grand scale of things. What Greeks wanted from US was to be treated with respect, like allies and equal partners.

Instead we are being treated like idiots that are supposed to blindly obey while their plans for the region hurt our interests and if not, get punished.
Where's the surprise then if the people send a big, clear, collective "F*** you" ? That's the simple reason for anti-Americanism in our country not because "everybody hates the US".

[Hollis]

The US VISA system is a joke anyway.

I can't go to the US and work in my cousins company since you can't get working/holiday visas.

With the size of the US and it's population you could literally create hundreds of thousands of jobs in the tourism sector if you made 12 month working holiday visas available.

The back baking industry is worth billions here in Australia.


No kidding, Look at the number of Illegal aliens working in the US.

[Vorian]

a purely political decision ... greece should charge the US citizens 50 euros to enter the country as a retaliation. FYROM and the Bourgas-Alexandroupolis pipeline deal pissed the Bush Administration off.

Bad move for the JSF program.. Rafale or Eurofighter looks more promising.
The US defense companies will suffer , some others will benefit

We wouldn't get JSF anyway...and lol about the 50 euro comment.

[SBL]

The US VISA system is a joke anyway.

I can't go to the US

I'd consider that a success.

[LineDoggie]

a purely political decision ... greece should charge the US citizens 50 euros to enter the country as a retaliation. FYROM and the Bourgas-Alexandroupolis pipeline deal pissed the Bush Administration off.

Bad move for the JSF program.. Rafale or Eurofighter looks more promising.
The US defense companies will suffer , some others will benefit


Good Question, Other than US Citizens of Greek Extraction, how many Americans go to Greece on Vacation? I've never met any. But hey great Idea, maybe the USA can Charge Greeks 1000 Dollars for entry to the USA- see how that works?

[Umbro2914]

What Greeks wanted from US was to be treated with respect, like allies and equal partners.
Yeah a lot of countrys want to be treated fairly by the US... Poland had troops until very recently in Iraq, has a sizable contingent in Astan, will be hosting US rockets, and still has to get visas for US..
Best that i know, there are no Greek troops in those regions.... so yeah sometimes lifes not fair.



Where's the surprise then if the people send a big, clear, collective "F*** you" ? That's the simple reason for anti-Americanism in our country not because "everybody hates the US".

You mean like attacking The American embassy in Athens?? cause thats a preety extreme f*ck you...

[Vorian]

Yeah a lot of countrys want to be treated fairly by the US... Poland had troops until very recently in Iraq, has a sizable contingent in Astan, will be hosting US rockets, and still has to get visas for US..
Best that i know, there are no Greek troops in those regions.... so yeah sometimes lifes not fair.


As said, we are too proud sometimes.



You mean like attacking The American embassy in Athens?? cause thats a preety extreme f*ck you...

Nearly every left-wing protest involves marching to the American embassy and shouting but no attacks.

Or do you mean that attack some time ago with a rocket? That was not the Greek people but some ultra-left-wing morons that didn't even have the courage to take responsibility for the attack.

[LineDoggie]

Hmmm, Speaking of upsetting policy's How about Greeces Pressgang?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7243/unofficial_embassy_military.html


This publication contains general information about Greek laws and regulations concerning conscription, military obligations and related privileges of interest ot American man of Greek extraction.
Greek males between the ages of 20 and 50 are required by Greek law to perform military service.

This applies to any individual whom the Greek authorities consider to be Greek, regardless of whether or not the individual considers himself Greek, has a foreign citizenship and passport, or was born or lives outside of Greece.

The US Embassy cannot intercede with the Greek recruitment authorities on behalf on individuals in Greece who are considered Greeks.


Generally, obligatory non voluntary military service in Greece will not affect US citizenship. Specific questions on this subject should be addressed to the US Embassy in Athens.

Please note, ONLY the Greek recruiting authorities have the right to decide, on a case-by-case basis, the eligibility of and individual to settle his military obligations in a method other than the full 24-month military service

Why how Democratic, to pressgang Citizens of another Country into your military as you see fit, because their Grandfather was from say Athens.....

[PVJ]

Good Question, Other than US Citizens of Greek Extraction, how many Americans go to Greece on Vacation? I've never met any. But hey great Idea, maybe the USA can Charge Greeks 1000 Dollars for entry to the USA- see how that works?

"The survey carried out by AIA on the US market shows that 435,490 Americans who arrived at Athens Airport in 2007 stated they were coming to Greece for a vacation"

http://grhomeboy.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/record-number-of-us-visitors-for-greece-in-2007/


If they did charge 50 euros each that would be 21,774,500 Euros or about 30 million US dollars. Actually come to think of it, this would be a pretty good idea, 50 bucks dosent seem too big when you pay 2 grand for airfare and hotel stay.

[SBL]

a purely political decision ... greece should charge the US citizens 50 euros to enter the country as a retaliation. FYROM and the Bourgas-Alexandroupolis pipeline deal pissed the Bush Administration off.


Play ball and you get benefits. Don't and you shouldn't look for any special favors. That's generally how it goes.

[PVJ]

Play ball and you get benefits. Don't and you shouldn't look for any special favors. That's generally how it goes.

Like buying Russian and French military equipment instead of US made equipment?

[LineDoggie]

"The survey carried out by AIA on the US market shows that 435,490 Americans who arrived at Athens Airport in 2007 stated they were coming to Greece for a vacation"

http://grhomeboy.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/record-number-of-us-visitors-for-greece-in-2007/


If they did charge 50 euros each that would be 21,774,500 Euros or about 30 million US dollars. Actually come to think of it, this would be a pretty good idea, 50 bucks dosent seem too big when you pay 2 grand for airfare and hotel stay.

That few huh? Interesting......

[SBL]

Like buying Russian and French military equipment instead of US made equipment?
That's how it's always been.

[PVJ]

That few huh? Interesting......

How many Greeks visit the US for vacation per year?

[LineDoggie]

How many Greeks visit the US for vacation per year?
Even Fewer... didnt register in the top 20 countries. Number 20 is Denmark with 36,000

[SBL]

Even Fewer... didnt register in the top 20 countries. Number 20 is Denmark with 36,000
So why all the belly-aching?

[LineDoggie]

US already charges about 80 euros for tourist visa and it's a 2 day process only accomplished in the US embassy in Athens.
Nothing offensive towards US citizens, remember when Brazil started fingerprinting them after US did it after 9/11 ? why the uproar when the "treatment" is returned equally ? No Uproar from us, I could really care less.

[SilentType]

You obviously know very few Europeans or simply don't choose to listen.

Much of Europe is pro-American... or better said, would LIKE to be pro-American. American politics make this nearly impossible however.

There is a strong liberal element in Europe that will always be anti-American, this is true. In fact, much of this liberal element is even anti-Europe. They are a bunch of self-hating, self-serving, self-righteous clowns.

However even Europe's moderate and conservative elements were pushed away during the Bush years and much of the damage done will take a generation or two to repair.

A majority of Europe's youth is either anti-American or very suspicious of America. America is largely to blame for this unfortunate phenomenon.

Ahhh, so you say that it's all America's fault that people in Europe dislike us. So who is not listening again?

You see any posts here at militaryphotos by people who aren't U.S. citizens or residents that is pro-USA (as a nation not individual support of individuals) be sure to point it out to me I"m always looking.

[achilles]

You call it hypocrisy but don't seem to understand the fact countries change and times change. Old enemies can become fast friends. Also many on that list may not have been the best people to work with at the time but it was all we could work with to combat a greater enemy to the US. Like Saddam. In fact that is so simple to understand historically I can't believe you would list him.

So in other words you have simply posted a typical "liberal hit list" of unscrupulous people the US has worked with yet you do not care about the rhyme or reason as long as it sharpens your dull axe so you can grind on.

Countries do change and obviously relations among countries change. The thing is what ethos, values and trustworthiness a country builds up thoughout its history. I am not suggesting the US should become a charity or abandon the pragmatism of its foreign policy but there are clear lines of realism, hypocricy and ruthlesness and i'm afraid your country at times has crossed all three. This is what my list says. You could work with anybody, practically ANYBODY, who would serve your national interests. And this has cost thousands of innocent lives.

Old enemies become friends, and old friends can become enemies with equal easy. Thats your value when playing ball in the international arena. This is why very few trust you anymore and even fewer appreciate your international stance, especially the one driven by the neoconservative lot who's been running your country for the last 8 years.

Playing the "USSR monster" or "the lesser of two evils" card does not work anymore. The world knows better than that.

[Hyde]

Greece GDP for 2008 is :$314.6 billion

Poland GDP for 2008 is : $420.3 billion

Bulgaria GDP for 2008 is : $39.61 billion

It is clear that it is not an economical problem
(Portugal who is eligible for the US non visa system has a GDP : $223.3 billionfor 2008 so lower than Greece)

You should take into account that Greece only has 10 Million Citizens, while Poland has 40 Million. Everything is in a different light now, isn't it?

[Mordoror]

Everything is in a different light now, isn't it

not really because i don't think it concerns an economical problem at all

Sapin has a GDP of $1.361 trillion (2007 est.)for around 40 millions of inhabitants
4 time higher than Greece for 4 time the amount of people
and still they are accepted in the US program

[achilles]

not really because i don't think it concerns an economical problem at all

Sapin has a GDP of $1.361 trillion (2007 est.)for around 40 millions of inhabitants
4 time higher than Greece for 4 time the amount of people
and still they are accepted in the US program

It has nothing to do with economics or demographics, guys. Its politics. A political retaliation basically for vetoing Bush's plans in the Balkans and for establishing closer ties with Russia.

[LineDoggie]

Then why whine about it? seriously. Lets say it is "Payback" for your intransigence on those issues, so what? Your upset because of a Country's Name?


If some country wants to call itself New York, we could care less....

[Weasel]

Then why whine about it? seriously. Lets say it is "Payback" for your intransigence on those issues, so what? Your upset because of a Country's Name?


If some country wants to call itself New York, we could care less....

If it´s payback then it´s a childish behaviour. And that is a reason to whine about.

[Mordoror]

IF it is payback

That's the true question ......

[LineDoggie]

IF it is payback

That's the true question ......

Exactly my point, unfortunately there been mostly 6 pages of whining with little facts about why

[Weasel]

That´s the point. The Bush administration made many stupid things which can not be explained by facts.

Stop whining, let´s act.

[LineDoggie]

That´s the point. The Bush administration made many stupid things which can not be explained by facts.

Stop whining, let´s act.


I'll call the Waaaaaaaaambulance for you

[achilles]

IF it is payback

That's the true question ......

You fail to give a persuasive alternative explanation. I ask again..what formal criteria Greece does not fullfil?

[achilles]

That´s the point. The Bush administration made many stupid things which can not be explained by facts.

Thats a rather polite and sweet way of putting it.p-)

[Weasel]

I'll call the Waaaaaaaaambulance for you

You are how old? :cantbeli:

[Weasel]

Thats a rather polite and sweet way of putting it.p-)

I´m a sensitive person. rofl

[Mordoror]

You fail to give a persuasive alternative explanation. I ask again..what formal criteria Greece does not fullfil?you are more familiar with the regulations in your country so i will play the devil's advocate and set up a series of issues that may (see the conditionnal) be responsible for not making Greece fulfilling the programm
I will let you answer point by point


How does a country qualify to participate in the Visa Waiver Program (VWP)?



Governments issue secure machine-readable passports that satisfy internationally accepted standards; (Q :is it the case ?)
Governments certify that they have a program to incorporate biometric identifiers into their passports in accordance with International Civil Aviation Organization standards (Q :is it the case ?)
Governments certify that they report the theft of blank passports on a timely basis to the U.S. Government, and do so in practice (Q :is it the case ?)
The incidence of nationals of the country traveling as nonimmigrant visitors who are denied admission, withdraw their application, and violate the terms of a VWP admission is less than two percent of the total number of nonimmigrant nationals traveling to the U.S. during the previous fiscal year. (Q :is it the case ?)



Security of a country’s passport application, production and delivery processes (Is it appropriate ?);
Security of passports and other documents used to demonstrate identity and citizenship, and incidence of fraud or misuse involving such documents (Is it appropriate ?)
Immigration controls and alien smuggling activities in the country, and efforts to address such threats;(Is it stated as sufficient given the fact that Greece is a door of entry for illegal in Europe as Poland for example)
Degree of cooperation with the U.S. and other international partners on law enforcement issues, including extradition.(Is it the case, have you common agreements on law issues like extradition)


PS : don't be so defensive, i am just trying to understand

[Hyde]

not really because i don't think it concerns an economical problem at all

Sapin has a GDP of $1.361 trillion (2007 est.)for around 40 millions of inhabitants
4 time higher than Greece for 4 time the amount of people
and still they are accepted in the US program

so, gdp per capita should be pretty equal?
I just wanted to point out that poland is not as near at greece as your post showed since it has not considered the exonomical status of individuals. I wanted to show that greece would not have to be considered easterneurope poor nation and therefor not granted visafree entry, but that it is economically well developed and therefore giving it visa free entry would not state a danger of immigration like it would be with, lets say, bulgaria. So this has to be some political move.

[Buffalo_soldier]

The EU should insist on equal visa rights for all member states. Either that, or apply its own sanctions.

I bet the situation would change quicker if that was the case.

[LineDoggie]

You are how old? :cantbeli:


Oh, so sorry, forgot your the only one allowed to be flippant and sarcastic, maybe its time to watch Sprockets.....:roll:

[LineDoggie]

The EU should insist on equal visa rights for all member states. Either that, or apply its own sanctions.

I bet the situation would change quicker if that was the case.

I'll take that Bet..........

[achilles]

you are more familiar with the regulations in your country so i will play the devil's advocate...

You still provide no evidence backing up your "conditional" or "unconditional" thesis. You usually post just for the heck of it, without any real arguments. "Play" indeed...



How does a country qualify to participate in the Visa Waiver Program (VWP)?



Governments issue secure machine-readable passports that satisfy internationally accepted standards; (Q :is it the case ?)
Governments certify that they have a program to incorporate biometric identifiers into their passports in accordance with International Civil Aviation Organization standards (Q :is it the case ?)
Governments certify that they report the theft of blank passports on a timely basis to the U.S. Government, and do so in practice (Q :is it the case ?)
The incidence of nationals of the country traveling as nonimmigrant visitors who are denied admission, withdraw their application, and violate the terms of a VWP admission is less than two percent of the total number of nonimmigrant nationals traveling to the U.S. during the previous fiscal year. (Q :is it the case ?)



Security of a country’s passport application, production and delivery processes (Is it appropriate ?);
Security of passports and other documents used to demonstrate identity and citizenship, and incidence of fraud or misuse involving such documents (Is it appropriate ?)
Immigration controls and alien smuggling activities in the country, and efforts to address such threats;(Is it stated as sufficient given the fact that Greece is a door of entry for illegal in Europe as Poland for example)
Degree of cooperation with the U.S. and other international partners on law enforcement issues, including extradition.(Is it the case, have you common agreements on law issues like extradition)


To make the long story short:


Greece is the only one of the original 15 European Union nations that does not belong to the Visa Waiver Program. Greece meets the current criteria mandated for entry into the Visa Waiver Program, including the three percent refusal rate. As of January 1, 2007, Greek passports issued prior to January 1, 2006, are no longer considered valid for travel. Greek nationals are traveling with new, machine-readable passports that are produced using state-of-the-art biometric technology to meet the highest possible security standards and specifications.

"Greece is a critical U.S. ally," said Maloney. "I hope the State Department and Department of Homeland Security will move forward to include Greece in the Visa Waiver Program. The legislation that Congressman Bilirakis and I introduced is an important step toward making that happen."

Full article: http://maloney.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1358&Itemid=61


PS : don't be so defensive, i am just trying to understand

I've told you before, save the consultancy for yourself;)

[Mordoror]

You still provide no evidence backing up your "conditional" or "unconditional" thesis. You usually post just for the heck of it, without any real arguments. "Play" indeed...

I have no evidence to provide (as you have not concerning your thesis)
And i do not post just for the pleasure of doing it
As i stated i try to understand
so thanks for your link it answers to most of my questions (except the last two ones concerning the immigration control and the law enforcment cooperations)

PS : anyway even if you told me to spare my advices, here is a last one. It will be far more pleasant to have a discussion on a forum with any personn (including you) if some personns (meaning in that very case you) don't post with an underlying agressivity that is, to say the least, unconstructive (as proves your following sentence :
You usually post just for the heck of it, without any real arguments. "Play" indeed..

[achilles]

I have no evidence to provide (as you have not concerning your thesis)

Somethings are plain common sense. Greece fulfills the criteria. Period. Greece lately does not "comply" with the wants and needs of the Bush administration, because this counters Greek national interests. Period.
Greece is being rejected from the visa waiver program. Period. Why?
The answer has been already given. Its common sense. Its good old time american practice against "good friends and allies" who turn "bad".


so thanks for your link it answers to most of my questions (except the last two ones concerning the immigration control and the law enforcment cooperations)
No problem. Perhaps for the last two points you could do some research on your own, instead of prompting me to do it for you.


PS : anyway even if you told me to spare my advices, here is a last one. It will be far more pleasant to have a discussion on a forum with any personn (including you) if some personns (meaning in that very case you) don't post with an underlying agressivity that is, to say the least, unconstructive (as proves your following sentence :

My "aggresivity" stems from the fact that your posting usually aims at diverting the discussion to side-topics, stirring things up, all hidden behind a facade of kindness, politeness and reconciliatory spirit.

Prove me wrong.

[Mordoror]

My "aggresivity" stems from the fact that your posting usually aims at diverting the discussion to side-topics, stirring things up

if you feel it like that, then i am very sorry for you because you see evil where there is not


all hidden behind a facade of kindness, politeness and reconciliatory spirit.

trust me or not, it is not a facade
Not everybody is an hardcore, to the end one way thinker
But again if you feel i am in some way your opponent or ennemy or whatever else, OK, all is said


Prove me wrong.
your feeling about me seem to be already defined
Anything i would say or writte would not change them so .............................

at least some others of your fellows are not so black and white turned, i would rather talk to them

[justasoldier]

1. A long-lasting pro Turkish stance that's been going on for more than 5 decades now.

2. Ferocious support to FYROM, a weak statelet raising all sorts of irredentist claims against Greek soil, history and terminology.

3. Practically unconditional support to Albania, another not-so-friendly neighbor.

4. In case you havent noticed, the US has been explitely supporting everybody surrounding the Greek borders, BUT Greece. At least on material issues.

5. The bloody partition of Cyprus with the blessings of Dr. Henry Kissinger

6. Because of the colonels' military junta led by G. Papadopoulos (a CIA agent) between 1967 and 1974, which had devastating consequences for the cohesion of the Greek society's tissue.

7. Because many Greeks know that the non-rogue state called USA, has historically supported guys like Pol Pot, the abovementioned George Papadopoulos, Sukharto, Pinochet, Saddam Hussein, the Kontra regime and the list can go on indefinitely.

8. Because of the endless hypocricy of G.W. Bush and his administration, the Iraq war and the so-called "war on terror".

9. For your unconditional and unbalanced support to Israel.

10. For making Greece a nest of american spies, crooks and snitches.

11. For devastating Serbia, while the crimes of Bosnian Muslims, Croats and Albanians were left uncommented.

12. For creating Kosovo, at the expense of Serbia again, another puppet statelet run by ex-KLA thugs, drugs and arms traffickers.

Other than that, thanks for the Marshal Plan and for saving us from the Soviet communist monster. The problem is that we never signed that we would become american bitches after WWII.

I believe this makes a bit more clear now the Greek anti-americanism.

Explains about everything.Except for Greeks you hate everybody.So why the whining?You expect to be rewarded for your antimericanism with no visa entry to US?What is Greece contributing to international politics other than vetoing whining and arguing neighbors?Did they help solving any problem lately?.......

[Vorian]

Explains about everything.Except for Greeks you hate everybody.So why the whining?You expect to be rewarded for your antimericanism with no visa entry to US?What is Greece contributing to international politics other than vetoing whining and arguing neighbors?Did they help solving any problem lately?.......


LOL, cause US solved soooooo many problems lately.
Or perhaps surrendering your national interests cause it suits US is called "contributing to international politics" now?

[achilles]

Explains about everything.Except for Greeks you hate everybody.

Such unfortunate statements can never be true, obviously.


You expect to be rewarded for your antimericanism with no visa entry to US?

You are asking the wrong question. You should ask the following: "The US is expecting Greece to agree on suicidal (for Greece) proposals and then digest unfair treatment from a traditional "friend and ally" when we do not comply?"


What is Greece contributing to international politics other than vetoing whining and arguing neighbors?Did they help solving any problem lately?.......

Greece is a small country with a very moderate impact on world politics. We might not be great problem-solvers - we are way too busy sorting out our internal mess at the moment - yet we are very effective in not creating and externalizing new problems. Unlike the US. Want to chit chat about the recent financial crisis? Or maybe the Iraq war?